FAQ: rec.music.industrial Part 1/2 -- Questions and History

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Aug 7, 2001, 8:01:52 AM8/7/01
Archive-name: music/industrial-faq/part1
Version: 3.2
Last-modified: Apr 3, 1995
Periodicity: 20 days

Before I let you begin, I need to make a request. I feel like the FAQ
is getting woefully out of date. If you have any threads you are sick
of seeing, or some info you think should be included, please tell me.

I'd really like to see an extension on the history of Industrial

Future plans (we hope) should also include a listing of local
indepenent Industrial artists.

We especially need more info on record labels and mailorder sources.

If you know of any please send their name, label, and an address so I
can start compiling them.

MORE IMPORTANT NEWS! The address to send FAQ related info has changed
to rmi...@efn.org.


Current Editors:




Copies of the FAQ are available available on ftp sites, on the Web and
on request. Comments, corrections, and queries regarding this file
should be sent to the above address.


Where more than one link exists for a band, I will list them below the
section under the heading "Alternate Links". The link used in the
listing is my own favorite of the bunch. This is a matter of my own
personal preference so don't flame me 'cause I'll ingore it.

This is really a moot point anyway... I don't have multiple

The original versions of the FAQ were maintained by Dan Kletter,

Many thanks to: (in no apparent order)

Al Crawford Mason Jones Jeff Dauber
David Vessell Dave Stein Greg Earle
Adam Weitzman Rob Vaughn Seth Robson
Joshua Buerge "Uncle Klaus" Dave Datta
Valerie Ohm Andrew Russ Adrian Le Hanne
Leo Breebaart Ben Cox Terry Reed
Mark Gunderson John Davison Kritt Gierlefzen
Georg Wallmann "hortonee" Jutta Degener
<X>orcist Paul Moore Anders Holmberg
Franck Arnaud "@Man" Bob Haskins
Piotr T. Prussak Jennifer Davis Jester
Michael Lucas Pete Ashdown Peter Cigehn
Kevin "white law" Michael Gendreau

If there is anyone that I have forgotten, my apologies.


PART 1 - Frequently Asked Questions File:
1. Other periodic postings
2. Intro
3. History
4. Charter
5. RMI CD Status
6. Important Facts
7. FTP servers
8. Mailing Lists

PART 2 - Directory of Record Labels/Mail Order Sources/Contacts:
1. Major Record Labels
2. Distributors and Smaller Record Labels
3. Mail Order Sources and 'Zines



You are currently reading the "offical" r.m.i. FAQ. Other regular
postings include:

Jester's Net Industrial/EBM/Cyber Culture Band list, available from
jes...@sage.cc.purdue.edu. The list covers those bands on the net, and
includes reviews of their various work. The list is posted monthly.

The Top Sample Sources List is a list of the most popular movies,
tv-series, presidents and other sample sources. The popularity is
based on how frequently spoken lines from these sources have been
sampled and used in some sort of musical context. The list has been
compiled by Peter Cigehn, mainly by the help of and contributions from
the readers of r.m.i. Currently the list consists of hundreds of
sources and nearly 1000 different samples. The latest version of the
list can be obtained directly from Peter Cigehn by e-mail,
Peter....@um.erisoft.se. Although the prefered way to obtain a copy
is by reading r.m.i. where the list is posted about once a month, or
by Web at one of the following servers:

* Sewden
* Norway
* UK
* Canada



"In the gap caused by the failure of punk rock's apocalyptic rhetoric,
[the term] 'industrial' seemed like a good idea."--Jon Savage, London

Experimental. Aggro. Techno. Cutups. Alternative. Noise. Ambient.
Musique Concrete. Sound Collages. Avant Garde. Performance Art.
Difficult. Improv. Industrial?

So many names and so many labels. It gets confusing when from all
around us, publications continue to spew out more complex and
different names in an attempt to pinpoint a source, while at the same
time converging on one obvious thought: industrial. To demonstrate
this idea, we could even trace these origins of industrial back to
dadaism if we wanted to. This FAQ file is less an attempt to force
people into their place and more to widen the flow of information.
Sharing the precious information allows us to experience more in our
learning than by strange militaristic actions.



It is generally accepted that the term "industrial music" was coined
in 1976 when members of Throbbing Gristle formed Industrial Records.
It was to be a vehicle to explore a new form of expression through
analysis, presentation and aural stimulation. All of the individuals
involved used different means to achieve their goals, but the ideas
they shared were on common ground. Examples of early people on the
industrial label include Monte Cazzazza, Clock DVA, Cabaret Voltaire ,
Throbbing Gristle, Leather Nun, and William S. Burroughs. Although
critics felt they were too deviant, their brand of confrontation
signaled a desire for a change in the political and social system
currently in place. However bleak and distressing, their music was
merely a reflection of the society that surrounded them. But what's
really important is that they cultivated ideas on topics ranging from
serial killing to sex and censorship as well as countless others which
are not encouraged in genteel discussions. This was the first strike
against the information war launched by the propaganda leaders and it
positioned them as more than just a musical movement, but an
alternative culture. To paraphrase, these essential ideas are the
makeup for the movement:

Organizational Autonomy. A conscious choice to record independently.
To preserve the intention of music and to take it away from the
tainted and greedy major record companies who enjoyed success at
others expense.

Access to Information. With the perception of control techniques
leaving any physical boundaries and moving into the realm of the mind
and the mouth, it was of vital importance to discuss and be aware at
all times.

Use of Synthesizers and Anti-Music. Using found materials and
unconventional means of composition industrial music was more
antagonistic to its intended audience, than being music true itself.
It was "sounds without content".

Extra-Musical Elementrs. Because television has become a more powerful
agent of control than any pop music song, the use of films and video
arrangements often accompanied these aural counter attacks.

Shock Tactics. The final blow in the scheme for control has to be the
use of hitting home what you have to say, making sure that it gets
noticed. By far, this last technique is what is most often used by
modern day "industrialists" and most probably the connecting puzzle
piece that gave them such a distinction at all. Unfortunately, we've
all witnessed death and war so often in this day and age, that we're
far too jaded to care, rendering such an attempt almost useless.

Does this mean that industrial is now dead? Perhaps. But it cannot
prevent the presence of their past actions from being muted or lost.
In the early to late 80's a number of other groups began to interpret
some of the audio ideas to formulate their own territorial grounding.
Mixing the use of new technology, imaginative found (or homemade)
materials, and the incorporation of percussion and rhythm helped guide
it into the new decade. Examples of some of these bands would include:
Non, SPK, Einstuerzende Neubauten, Test Department, Laibach, Rhythm
and Noise, Ono, and Trial.

By the end of the 80's, "industrial music" had more than just changed,
it had more or less, continued to progress and evolve alongside its
society. These days, it has often come to be known as electronic
instrumentation used to create a form of dance beats blended with
harsh noises and sound bites such as Skinny Puppy , Revolting Cocks,
Ministry, Front 242 and Front Line Assembly. Today, there are
musicians who create industrial music from both sides of the fence;
and the list is ever growing.

The fascination with noise and machinery which is so much a part of
what one tends to think of as "classic" Industrial music had historic
precedents. In the late 1800's ideophones (noises, concrete sounds)
were used in orchestral music, Luii Russolo performed using his
"intonarumore" (noise machines) (1913) and around 1920 Erik Satie used
pistols and typewriters in the music for his surrealist play Parade.
The twenties also brought the "Futurist" and "Machine Music" schools
in both Italy and France. Other important historical figures include
Edgard Varese, whose "Ionisation" (1930) was the first piece of
Western music for percussion instruments alone and who produced an
important tape piece called "Poeme Electronique" in 1958; the "Musique
Concrete" works of Pierre Schaeffer and others (tape pieces made
exclusively from electronically altering recordings of natural sounds
like water drops, glass breaking, etc. He was also responsible for
probably the earliest 'loop' which used groves cut into vinyl
records); and John Cage, whose "First Construction in Metal" (for
metallic percussion) and "Imaginary Landscape No. 4" \ (for 12 radios)
were landmarks in American music.

[ for more information about industrial (experimental) music/history/
culture there are a few books you can read:

TAPE DELAY - SAF Publishing Ltd. (ISBN 0 946719 02 0)
REsearch #4/5: Burroughs/TG/Brion Gysin (ISBN 0-940642-05-0)
REsearch #6/7: The Industrial Culture Handbook (ISBN 0-940642-07-7)
REsearch #8/9: J.G. Ballard (ISBN 0-940642-08-5)
REsearch #11: Pranks! (ISBN 0-940642-10-7)

for more info on how to contact REsearch Publications or SAF
Publishers, see the directory listing in Part 2.]



rec.music.industrial is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote
for creation by 411:80 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 23
May 1991.

For your newsgroups file:
rec.music.industrial Discussion of all industrial-related music

The charter, culled from the call for votes:

Rec.music.industrial is for the discussion of all industrial-related
music styles, including traditional industrial (i.e. Einstuerzende
Neubauten, Throbbing Gristle, Cabaret Voltaire , etc.),
dance-industrial ('cyberpunk' i.e. Ministry, Skinny Puppy, Front 242,
Foetus, etc.) and hard techno music (i.e. Kraftwerk, etc.). Reviews of
new releases, related news items, concert information, and other types
of discussion are encouraged.



The RMI-CD(s) now have their own home page.



* The ADRV in Crash Worship's name stands for "Adoracion de Rotura
Violenta," which more or less means "Crash Worship" in Spanish.

* No member of Front 242 is a member of Bigod 20. Jean-Luc DeMeyer,
the lead singer of Front 242, was a guest on Bigod 20's song 'The
Bog,' and he sang it and wrote the lyrics. Aside from the
similarities in the two bands' music, this is the only direct
connection between the two bands. (And also the fact that they are
five-letter words followed by numbers.)

* There is some confusion over what is at the end of Front 242's
album TYRANNY FOR YOU. According to Transmission 242
originally,the songs were called simply 'Bonus Track I' and 'Bonus
Track II.' However, upon further prodding, they replied that the
pieces do have titles. The first one is called 'Hard Rock.' The
second one, according to the letter received, is called 'Trigger
3.' However, it is believed that this is a misprint, and instead
it should be called 'Trigger 1,' because the band had released a
(longer) song also called 'Trigger 3' on one of their TRAGEDY
remix EPs.

* The footage for the video to 'Mindphaser' by Front Line Assembly
was taken from the Japanese movie 'Gunhed.' Gunhed stands for 'Gun
UNit Heavy Elimination Device'. The original release was in Japan
in July 1989. The US version followed in 1991.

* Laibach's politics does not take sides in anything. Laibach is
part of a collective of artists called NSK or Neue Slowenische
Kunst. Upon entrance you are supposed to get rid of your political
views. Laibach are merely 'by-standers' and commentators in our
world of chaos. The most important point though is that
totalitarianism and oppression are not exclusive to facism but
also to: communism, christianity and capitalistic consumerism.

Since the entire NSK bases its work on the retro principle, it
means that the facist imagery is real (taken from actual Nazi art)
and the music also is based on music originally not composed by
Laibach. The most clear cut examples are: the Beatles, Queen, and
Opus; the glorified Macbeth is nothing more than a re-make of some
classical stuff.

What makes Laibach very unique though, is the overall designs of
their work. They ususally manage to collage one idea with its
opposite. Some of the artwork included on their disks was
originally done by anti-Nazi activists; however, its
out-of-context use leads one to associate it with Nazis. Laibach
stresses the idea that one can't be sure of the real meaning of
symbolism, that no one knows all of the history.

There are at least two radically different versions of Kapital,
the CD version is missing a track and most tracks are remixed from
the MC version.

* The proper spelling for the band Negativland is without the 'e'.
Their name was lifted from the Neu album BLACK FOREST GATEAU. On
that album one can find tracks named "Negativland" and "Seeland."
The first one is obviously the band name, and the second is the
name of the band's record label (before they signed to SST, of
course). Negativland means "negative country" or "country of
negativity" in German and Seeland means "country of the sea."

* It is important to note that Nine Inch Nails is essentially one
person, Trent Reznor from Cleveland (he does tour with a band but
they don't appear on the album Pretty Hate Machine). However, on
the more recent albums, Reznor is joined by other
performers/producers on various songs (Martin Atkins plays some
drums on Broken, J.G. Thirlwell remixed two songs on Fixed, Adrian
Belew plays guitar on a couple songs from The Downward Spiral).

* Butt Fuck Parlor Time (a.k.a. BFPT) is not a real NIN album.

* The correct definition of Einstuerzende Neubauten is "collapsing
new buildings" where "collapsing" is an adjective, not a verb.

v., to collapse

adj., collapsing, in a state of collapse

* According to the radio-promo release of 'Interim' the name is

* "Neubauten" generally refers to buildings built in a particular
style, rather than to any recently constructed buildings. The
style in question is the impersonal concrete-box modernist style.
Most housing projects (especially the huge towers built in the
60's) are perfect examples of Neubauten.

* Einstuerzende Neubauten chose their name when the Berlin
'Kongresshalle' collapsed around 1980. The building is located
close to the Reichstag and was a gift of the US allies to the city
of Berlin. The Kongresshalle is shaped a bit like an oyster, was
used for all kinds of exhibitions and meetings and finally
collapsed due to its cheap 60's concrete/metal construction. A
journalist died, a few more were injured and several cars were
smashed. After a rather long public discussion the Berlin
government decided to rebuild the Kongresshalle since it was a
symbol for the friendship between Germany and the US.

Additionally, to be strictly correct on a Western keyboard, it
should be Einstuerzende (the proper way to indicate an umlaut [ë]
over the 'u' is to just write it as 'ue').

Note, that I have chosen to use the "ue" instead of " [ë]." This
makes the formatting correct when this is converted to HTML.

* Alain Jourgensen (of Ministry fame) is not and never was a member
of Pigface.

* "Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv" (I've also seen it as
"Sozialistische Patienten Klink") or SPK named themselves after a
group of mental patients who formed an anarchist collective
(inspired by the Baader-Meinhoff Gang) and then blew themselves up
trying to make explosives. Their name changed on every release to
phrases such as "Systems Planning Korporation", "Surgical Penis
Klinik" and "SePpuKu."

* Concerning folks in sKINNY pUPPY: Nivek Ogre's real name is Kevin
Ogilvie. He grew up in Calgary.

* David Ogilvie is of no relation to Ogre, the same last names are a
coincidence. He moved to Vancouver from Montreal in the very early
80's. David Ogilvie's nickname is "Rave" and has been for a very
long time. Rave's wife (Rosie) is credited as "Mowse" on the old
CLEANSE, FOLD & MANIPULATE track 'Tear or Beat'.

* All of the above (and the other members of the Vancouver cadre)
are very nickname-happy. cEVIN and Dwayne both have nicknames as
well. Other people outside the camp get branded with nicknames if
they're around Rave or Ogre too long. Just because sometimes
"Rave" is listed and sometimes the more formal "David Ogilvie" is
listed doesn't mean they aren't the same person. There are credits
that say "Ogre" just as there are credits that say "K. Ogilvie".

* "Green guy" is a context-sensitive descriptor. It can mean a
particularly potent form of Pot, or the person who is the delivery
boy for said Pot. it is also used as in the credits for some pUPPY

* Everyone thinks that BACK AND FORTH exists in 50 copies. After
all, it does say words to that effect on it, right? This is not
the case. There's only 35 real copies. cEVIN made all of them
himself. He "pooped out" after those 35, so #36-#50 don't exist.
There's more. Of those 35 copies, there's "Mark I" and "Mark II".
The first 10 (or was it 15?) were hand- dubbed by cEVIN from the
four-track master. Those are the "good" ones. The remainder were
dup'ed on a high-speed double-cassette deck, and are thus deemed
(by cEVIN) to be of "lower quality".

* BACK AND FORTH has been re-issued on CD. it is the first part
along with other "rarities" and unreleased material as part of a
"10 year Skinny Puppy retrospective CD" that is in the works. The
BAD news is that it (B&F) is *re-mixed* and not just re-issued :-(
It is being re-done by "Hi-Watt" Marshall, the guy who engineered
the last Hilt album. (Rave Ogilvie is livid over this.) There are
two flavors of the re-issued Back and Forth CD: the regular
limited edition release and the "ultra" limited edition release
that comes packaged in a steel box with a numbered and signed

* the recording of sKINNY pUPPY's AIN'T IT DEAD YET was mastered as
one long track because it's intended to be listened to from start
to finish, like watching a concert. In order to get the whole
experience, you have to listen to the whole thing.

* For LAST RIGHTS, "song 4 on side 2" of the cassette is the same
thing as "song 10 on the CD" which is the same thing as "Left
Handshake", the track that samples Timothy Leary from "Tune in,
turn on, drop out" which is the same track that isn't there
because the copyright holders on said Timothy Leary quoted speech
rescinded permission for the band to use the samples. It may
emerge as a one-sided 7", to be given away to people at their
upcoming tour shows if you buy some tour merchandise; or it may
suddenly appear out of (K)nowhere courtesy of some annoited
bootleggers. It has also been reported that Leary is working to
get the rights to his speech back so SP can use it. It is now
available on the FTP site listed below.

* Skinny Puppy does maintain an FTP site. ftp.netcom.com in the
/pub/puppy directory.

* Re: Tear Garden's album, TIRED EYES SLOWLY BURNING, the credits in
vinyl copies for the song "You and Me and Rainbows" clearly state:

Edward Ka-Spel: Voice, keyboards, tapes
cEVIN Key: Keyboards, rhythm box, guitar, radio, tapes, voice
D. Rudolph Goettel: Keyboards
Lee Salford: Drums
N. Ogre: Voice
Lisa: Lady voice
Rave: Guitar, tapes

Note that "Lee Salford" was the drummer for Section 25 at one
time, and "Lisa" is a woman who I believe was Cevin's girlfriend
at the time.

* 1000 Homo DJs work was originally done as an Al Jourgensen solo
project concurrent with the LAND OF RAPE AND HONEY work. The vinyl
EP of APATHY was released about six months post LORAH. When Al
decided that Trent Reznor should do the vocals for 'Supernaut',
Steve Gotlieb (president of TVT), who was already unhappy with
Trent because of his legal filings against him, told Wax Trax that
any productions using Trent Reznor's voice is in violation of
Trent's contract with TVT. So the CD5 was released with the
original Jourgenson vocals. the CD5 itself was released containing
the two new songs, 'Supernaut' and 'Hey Asshole' as well as what
was on the APATHY EP, 'Apathy' and 'Better Ways'.

* KMFDM stands for Kein Mitleid fuer die Mehrheit which in English
means "No pity For The Majority." It has been argued that the name
really means nothing because the liner notes for their album, WHAT
DO YOU KNOW, DEUTSCHLAND (WaxTrax! Records) have it listed as

"Kein Mehrheit fuer die Mitleid"

however, the proper use of the prhase would be:

"Kein Mitleid fuer die Mehrheit"

(mit=with,leid=pain -> Pity; Mehr=more,heit=-ness -> Majority)

which also uses the genders correctly.

* Other uses such as "Kill Mother Fucking Depeche Mode", "Krispy
Mutant Fish Dealing Mescaline" or even "Kyle Minogue Fans Don't
Masturbate" is just a joke.

* Survival Research Labs now has an answering machine system which
you can get info from. Unfortunately, the current messages do not
give any dates for performances. It does however have a menu which
allows you to get info on past shows, legal problems, being an SRL
volunteer, and current machines working or being developed. Call:
1 + 415 641-8065.

They also have an FTP site, but I lost the address. If someone
could forward it, I'd appreciate it.



* The anonymous FTP address for the rmi FAQ is:

rtfm.mit.edu /pub/usenet/rec/music/industrial

Not only will you find the rmi FAQ there, you will find about
every other FAQ as well.

bradley.bradley.edu or (

Contains the EFN back issues. Also present are transcribed lyrics
(currently Ministry and Negativland) and a few discographies.

* The discography archives are currently available via e-mail
request from Dave Datta and/or (preferably) via anonymous FTP at:

ftp.uwp.edu (

The archive is organized by letter, then by name. So, if you were
looking for Coil, you would look in:


This directory then has the following links in it:

discog -> /pub/music/discog/c/coil
lyrics -> /pub/music/lyrics/c/coil
pictures -> /pub/music/pictures/c/coil
reviews -> /pub/music/reviews/c/coil

There are thousands of discographies in the archives as well as
tons of lyrics at this time. Submissions are always welcome. A
sample FTP session/help file is also available via mail request
from the administrator.

* The files that comprise Factsheet Five Electric (the zine of
zines) are available for online reading or downloading from the
WELL, via ftp from either:

ftp.msen.com ( /pub/newsletters/F5-E
src.doc.ic.ac.uk /literary/newsletters/factsheet-five

These are freely distributable. Questions regarding F5 Electronic
should be addressed to Jerod Pore jer...@well.sf.ca.us.

* The general rule for all anonymous ftp sites is:
1. When prompted for a user name, type 'anonymous'.

2. When prompted for a password, type your full e-mail address.

This will work for the vast majority of ftp sites, including the ones



This list is woefully incomplete, so if you maintain a list or are on
one let me know and I'll get it included. In no particular order:


Posts of NEC show dates, tour schedules, band-news, bios and the NEC
e-zine. Anything relating to Northwest Music is accepted.

Send mail to list...@u.washington.edu with the subject subscribe
nec full name.


Taking its name from the early Skinny Puppy song, it exists for the
disucssion of (you guessed it) Skinny Puppy's music.


The Indie-List is a digest of reviews and other info for listeners of
idependent music (not just industrial). Requests for addition to
the list should be sent to gru...@access.digex.net (a person, not
a program)


For guitarists wishing to exchange tabulature.


For all net bands on the net industrial/ebm/cybercultre band list to
chat, share trade secrets, etc


For the 4ad record label. lists...@jhuvm.hcf.jhu.edu
Leave subject line blank. Place only this in message: subscribe
4ad-1 {your name}


Any subject, with the text only "ADD". nin-r...@nin.wariat.org


A useful list maintained by Dave Datta, unmoderated, available as
digests or individual mail.
Requests to join to: kraftwer...@cs.uwp.edu


For the discussion of Legendary Pink Dots and related projects. (Tear
Garden, MIMIR, Delerium, Nurse With Wound) Or for anything
inspired by the above.

There is also an associated FTP site: ftp.cs.mcgill.edu in the
/pub/mail-list/cloud-zero directory.


For discussion of same. himmelfahrtstr...@dover.cerf.net
(Say that three times fast.)


Last Modified: Apr 3, 1995

Darrell Fuhriman, dar...@efn.org

This FAQ copyright 1995 by Darrell Fuhriman. Permission must be
obtained before reproducing in any non-electronic format.

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