industrial metal vs industrial rock
MangoJeter
Veni Vidi Exii
>Subject: industrial metal vs industrial rock
> is there a major difference between the two sub-genres?
(headbangs and smokes weed)
- Veni Vidi Exii
www.deconstructing-man.com
"it's so refreshing to find a place on the internet where cool people
can have intelligent conversation of truly relevant boobies without
resorting to dissertations on the issues." - random message board
SirkutHed
"Veni Vidi Exii" <thedre...@aol.compactdisc> wrote in message
news:20010117153050...@ng-ce1.aol.com...
> MangoJeter wrote:
> >Subject: industrial metal vs industrial rock
> > is there a major difference between the two sub-genres?
>
> (headbangs and smokes weed)
> - Veni Vidi Exii
Stereotype much?
SirkutHed
MT
SirkutHed <qj...@home.com> wrote...
>
> "Veni Vidi Exii" <thedre...@aol.compactdisc> wrote...
>
> > MangoJeter wrote:
> >
> > >Subject: industrial metal vs industrial rock
> > > is there a major difference between the two sub-genres?
I'd say that there really is no such thing as "industrial metal."
"Industrial rock," on the other hand, has always been synonymous with
coldwave for me - it's a genre that marries (ie combines even doses of) the
guitar-based sound with electronics.
The bands that were on Slipdisc (November 17, Drown, etc.) and Van
Richter (Testify, etc.) were called "aggro-industrial," which is basically a
way of saying metal with some electronics thrown in. This could also
describe "industrial metal."
But I don't think that the aggro-industrial sound is so radically
different from regular metal (especially since a lot of metal bands today
use electronics in their music) that it warrants an entirely new genre name.
The connection to [post-]industrial is so tentative that it seems more a
marketing ploy (to appeal to a larger audience) than anything else.
So yes, there is a major difference between the two subgenres:
coldwave/industrial rock is recognized as a legitimate subgenre of
[post-]industrial, while industrial metal is just a silly, meaningless term.
Oh, and I used the [post-] prefix just to keep Locke off my back.
> > (headbangs and smokes weed)
> > - Veni Vidi Exii
>
> Stereotype much?
Laugh much? It was obviously a joke.
V.Max
> MangoJeter wrote:
> >Subject: industrial metal vs industrial rock
> > is there a major difference between the two sub-genres?
>
Stabbing Westward- ROCK
Fear Factory- METAL
mo...@industrial.org
> Stereotype much?
Nope. I am too busy headbanging (no weed for me though, just booze and
coffee).
=)
The latest Cryptopsy rocks by the way.
--
|) __,,_____________ codeGRUNT : <sl...@codegrunt.com> (|
|) < ___________/ moron : <mo...@industrial.org> (|
|) / /-' send EEEI news to : <info...@industrial.org (|
|) /___/ industrial & DIY culture : http://industrial.org (|
|) narc : http://industrial.org/narc/ (|
mo...@industrial.org
> I'd say that there really is no such thing as "industrial metal."
> "Industrial rock," on the other hand, has always been synonymous with
> coldwave for me - it's a genre that marries (ie combines even doses of) the
> guitar-based sound with electronics.
I'd argue with this. Industrial rock really means rock with industrial
elements. Good examples would be Cop Shoot Cop, Tchkung or maybe even the
Swans depending on your point of view. Coldwave has always been really
specific to glam metal tinged EBM acts like Chemlab and 16 Volt.
Industrial metal is pretty much synonymous with cold wave in most people's
eyes. There is also a side element of drum machine based metal that
sometimes fights for the term death industrial with the power electronics
folks. Godflesh are an example of this. Still, a lot of folks would lump
them in with industrial metal (along with Pitch Shifter, Puncture, etc.).
Industrial rock means (to me anyways) "not metal".
> The bands that were on Slipdisc (November 17, Drown, etc.) and Van
> Richter (Testify, etc.) were called "aggro-industrial," which is basically a
> way of saying metal with some electronics thrown in. This could also
> describe "industrial metal."
Aggro industrial was just a catch phrase and does not denote a sub-genre
or even a specific style really. Van Richter called Sielwolf metal
industrial which really they are not. I consider Dissecting Table or
Mental Destruction "aggro industrial" but they most certainly are not
"cold wave" in any form.
> But I don't think that the aggro-industrial sound is so radically
> different from regular metal (especially since a lot of metal bands today
> use electronics in their music) that it warrants an entirely new genre name.
> The connection to [post-]industrial is so tentative that it seems more a
> marketing ploy (to appeal to a larger audience) than anything else.
99% of so called metal bands are really addidas rock and not what has
traditonially been called metal. IMHO of course. Rage Against the Korn
Biscuit are *not* metal.
> So yes, there is a major difference between the two subgenres:
> coldwave/industrial rock is recognized as a legitimate subgenre of
> [post-]industrial, while industrial metal is just a silly, meaningless term.
Don't agree at all. Coldwave = metal tinged industrial, specifically of
the glam variety. Industrial metal is wide sweeping though I wqould use
it to cover something closer to Godflesh though this obvious a point of
contention. Industrial rock means just that, "no metal". An no metal is
a sad thing.
=)
For other's take on this though check out the industrial FAQ at:
Cheers
Jamie Rosen
> is there a major difference between the two sub-genres?
Same as between "rock" and "metal", I'd guess. But then, Scorpions and
Winger were called metal in their day.
--
"It is always unwise to open a Queen prematurely when fighting for the
cause of Satan."
Misc
these are the genres listed
industrial traditional/experimental
industrial dance
industrial rock
gothic industrial
noise
most of the bands listed
themselves in these categorys
so everthing else is just arguably
more metal than rock
more electronic/dance than rock
no guitars or whatever
i agree with it though
"MangoJeter" <mango...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010117152232...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Veni Vidi Exii
>type industrial music at yahoo
>most of the bands listed
>themselves in these categorys
>so everthing else is just arguably
>more metal than rock
Because obviously Yahoo! is the end all, be all of music categorization. Kind
of like gigabrake, but more infallable.
Misc
because if a band for instance like
fear factory or godflesh
who placed themselves in the catergory
industrial rock
were as some people might consider them just metal or whatever
they arguably feel they are closer to industrial rock
and a band like stabbing westward or marilyn manson who maybe some people
consider
would fit in the industrial rock catergory
chose not to be and are in the rock and pop catergorys
as my point was just about the people that put themselves in this catergory
becuase it was closest to what they feel they do
and then after that if they want to have there own word to descibe there
music so be it
"Veni Vidi Exii" <thedre...@aol.compactdisc> wrote in message
news:20010117215936...@ng-fg1.aol.com...
Veni Vidi Exii
>im saying that as a starting point
>because if a band for instance like
>fear factory or godflesh
>who placed themselves in the catergory
>industrial rock
This may come as a shock to you. But Fear Factory probably didn't register
their own website for Yahoo!'s search engine categories. Their label did.
MT
StarshipWreck <starsh...@ahooy.moc> wrote...
>
> M...@home.computer (MT):
>
> <snip>
>
> > while industrial metal is just a silly, meaningless term.
>
That's a new one on me.
Maybe I should hold a contest asking people to propose their ideas
on what my initials really stand for. The best entry would get a prize, and
I could make pie, and I could borrow Uncle Joe's barn, and-...
NP - Diagram of Suburban Chaos
MT
<mo...@industrial.org> wrote...
>
> MT <M...@home.computer> wrote:
>
> > I'd say that there really is no such thing as "industrial
> > metal." "Industrial rock," on the other hand, has always been
> > synonymous with coldwave for me - it's a genre that marries
> > (ie combines even doses of) the guitar-based sound with
> > electronics.
>
> I'd argue with this. Industrial rock really means rock with
> industrial elements.
I agree. But I think you have to have more than some elements - you
need to have a prominent "industrial" presence.
The way I look at it is similar to what Jamie Rosen posted -
industrial metal is to industrial rock what metal is to rock. What separates
the industrial from the lite varieties is the industrial (read: electronic)
elements.
Since metal places a high prominence on guitars in both its normal
and industrial forms, that leaves little room for the electronic stuff.
That's why I say that industrial metal is pretty much just metal, but it's
given a separate name for some reason (like "aggro industrial").
If I were to call anything "industrial metal," I'd point to bands
like Rammstein and those from Slipdisc. They have a metal sound and build on
it with some electronic presence, but they're basically metal.
> Coldwave has always been really specific to glam metal tinged
> EBM acts like Chemlab and 16 Volt.
Well, it's also been applied to the likes of PIG, KMFDM, and NIN,
none of which fit that description, so....
And for that matter, they both fit the "rock with industrial" idea
we agree on. I think it's much closer to industrial rock, considering the
various coldwave artists we listed have more in common with hard rock than
metal - just with electronics added in.
> Industrial rock means (to me anyways) "not metal".
Agreed. And you argue that coldwave = industrial metal, but I think
that metal = industrial metal, and neither one really sounds like the
coldwave bands we listed. So, in my eyes, coldwave != industrial metal, but
rather = industrial rock.
Damn, what a weird argument.
> Aggro industrial was just a catch phrase and does not denote a
> sub-genre or even a specific style really.
I didn't say it did.
But I think it's similar to industrial metal in that respect: IMO,
both are catch phrases.
> 99% of so called metal bands are really addidas rock and not
> what has traditonially been called metal. IMHO of course. Rage
> Against the Korn Biscuit are *not* metal.
I've always thought of them as hard rock, only now with some rap
elements tossed in.
> Coldwave = metal tinged industrial, specifically of the glam variety.
I think that's too limited. I've seen it used for bands that don't
fit this description, and more often, at that. I think my definition
includes all of the bands we named, and probably more.
MINDPHASER
although I do like some parts of it, I don't see a damn thing "industrial"
about his "supercoolnothing" album
-steve
"MT" <M...@home.computer> wrote in message
news:MXq96.63$AN.5...@nntp1.onemain.com...
>
> SirkutHed <qj...@home.com> wrote...
> >
> > "Veni Vidi Exii" <thedre...@aol.compactdisc> wrote...
> >
> But I don't think that the aggro-industrial sound is so radically
MINDPHASER
you're gonna get.
-steve
"V.Max" <pi...@perigee.net> wrote in message
news:3A664918...@perigee.net...
Misc
their record label would call them death metal
they in fact got mad at there label
for calling them that in there bio
but they are hands on with their website
running it themselves
and has nothing to do with the
record label and Godflesh own there record label
as i only meant bands official websites that
they run or are in control of not some record label
thing like metropolis does were they list for the band
but the official website run under the artists direction
i dont see your point of why it would
be listed under industrial rock
if they didnt want it to
they would probably be better off in death metal
they probably alienate a lot of metalheads
for having electronics and making remix cds
and having rhys as a studio member of the band
or as ive heard a metalhead say
"that guy from that pussy electronic
bullshit assembly"
i just dont think so
"Veni Vidi Exii" <thedre...@aol.compactdisc> wrote in message
news:20010117225739...@ng-fg1.aol.com...
Marian Try Slaughter
Very Naughty Virgins.
np: autechre - anti
If I had enough ink, I could write music like that.
Simon - mhm27x5
Marian Try Slaughter
>thats not true really because
>their record label would call them death metal
>they in fact got mad at there label
>for calling them that in there bio
>but they are hands on with their website
>running it themselves
>and has nothing to do with the
>record label and Godflesh own there record label
>as i only meant bands official websites that
>they run or are in control of not some record label
>thing like metropolis does were they list for the band
>but the official website run under the artists direction
>i dont see your point of why it would
>be listed under industrial rock
>if they didnt want it to
>they would probably be better off in death metal
>they probably alienate a lot of metalheads
>for having electronics and making remix cds
>and having rhys as a studio member of the band
>or as ive heard a metalhead say
>"that guy from that pussy electronic
>bullshit assembly"
>
>i just dont think so
That's so poetic
np: haujobb feat vanessa briggs - less
Misc
say that of the subcatergories of industrial
music listed by yahoo
i think that they are good starting points
for the bands and if you find a bands
officially ran website listed under one of them
they probably consider there music that
on the other hand i dont support yahoos
corporate asses so i am tired of defending them
adam j. kuhn
<snip>
a. don't top post,
b. please adjust your column width. 80 chars per line should do.
adam j. kuhn
np: einstürzende neubauten - zwölftausend dreihunnert und fünf
--jesus was my co-pilot, but we crashed
-----in the andes and i had to eat him.
orion
roger that.
J. Wood
> gothic industrial
This shit has got to stop.
J
Barry Norton
"MT" <M...@home.computer> wrote:
> I'd say that there really is no such thing as "industrial metal."
> "Industrial rock," on the other hand, has always been synonymous with
> coldwave for me - it's a genre that marries (ie combines even doses of)
the
> guitar-based sound with electronics.
I'd go further - neither exist...
I've always said the most important thing is that Heavy Metal is Rock Music
and Industrial is _not_. Industrial is anti-Rock and also is therefore
neither Metal nor Goth (a derivative of Punk Rock, as we, especially, should
call Punk... Punk's rebellion against Rock failed), nor any other
derivative. Sure, Darkwave and Coldwave exist for hybrids with Industrial
influences on each side, but there can fundamentally be no such thing as
Industrial Rock nor Industrial Metal (nor an Industrial Gothic band).
One thing we (who still agree with this part of the definition of
Industrial - perhaps I'm on my own) don't want is Rock musician attitude...
that's why I don't listen, for instance, to the Damage Manual.
I've neither read nor posted to this group for ages - I think I'm about to
be reminded why...
Barry
Barry Norton
"Misc" <stan....@gte.net> wrote in message
news:kRs96.2702$xJ2.2...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> type industrial music at yahoo
> these are the genres listed
> industrial traditional/experimental
> industrial dance
> industrial rock
> gothic industrial
Again, as I posted, above, Industrial Rock and Gothic Industrial do not
exist.
Barry
StvCD7
>This shit has got to stop.
>
>This shit has got to stop.
>
>This shit has got to stop.
>
oh yeah.
Francois Labreque
MT wrote:
>
> StarshipWreck <starsh...@ahooy.moc> wrote...
> >
> > M...@home.computer (MT):
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > while industrial metal is just a silly, meaningless term.
> >
> > .. is that what your initials stand for ?
>
> That's a new one on me.
>
> Maybe I should hold a contest asking people to propose their ideas
> on what my initials really stand for.
They stand for "No pity for the majority".
--
Francois Labreque | In the future, performance will be measured
flabreque | by the size of your pipe.
@ | - Dogbert, on networking
videotron.ca
Nicolas Chevreux
Exii) wrote:
>Because obviously Yahoo! is the end all, be all of music categorization. Kind
>of like gigabrake, but more infallable.
Well, even though a Yahoo classification is certainly not the most
accurate thing one could find, the idea of defining the genres not by
rules or styles but rather by what the bands think of themselves is
probablt the least arguable idea I've heard lately about genres.
OK, this might end in EBM band saying they're doing power electronics.
But then, isn't it preferable to people discussing over and over if a
band is power noise, noise industrial or rhythmic noise? And, at
least, it's a bit less sterile.
Nicolas
np: Cat Hope: Fetish
-
Nicolas Chevreux
adam j. kuhn
>
>
>MT wrote:
>>
>> StarshipWreck <starsh...@ahooy.moc> wrote...
>> >
>> > M...@home.computer (MT):
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > > while industrial metal is just a silly, meaningless term.
>> >
>> > .. is that what your initials stand for ?
>>
>> That's a new one on me.
>>
>> Maybe I should hold a contest asking people to propose their ideas
>> on what my initials really stand for.
>
>They stand for "No pity for the majority".
i thought MT stood for "a whole jar of depeche mode in a collapsing
building falling down on heroin."
adam j. kuhn
np: ohGr - devil
Raisinlove
"MT" <M...@home.computer> wrote:
>
> I'd say that there really is no such thing as "industrial
metal."
I don't know... Would you qualify Psychopomps as coldwave? Coldwave
seems more specific than just any guitar-tinged industrial styles.
Aghast View's Carcinopest certainly counts as coldwave but the 'pomps
Pro-Death Ravers seems more like metal. And then you have metal bands
who use alot of electronics like Fear Factory and Strappling Young Lad.
Somewhere between industrial metal and old-school pure industrial, I`d
put Sielwolf...
--
www.raisinlove.com
[comix, graphix and world domination]
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Marian Try Slaughter
wrote:
>"Misc" <stan....@gte.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>a. don't top post,
>b. please adjust your column width. 80 chars per line should do.
That isn't the problem, actually. So far as I can tell, he hits enter
after each scentence (or fragment).
Marian Try Slaughter
By that definition, nor should Industrial Dance.
fro...@my-deja.com
Veni Vidi Exii
>the point of my first post was just to
>say that of the subcatergories of industrial
>music listed by yahoo
>i think that they are good starting points
>for the bands and if you find a bands
>officially ran website listed under one of them
>they probably consider there music that
Operation Re-Information is listed under Trad. Industrial. I'm going to go so
far as to say that although they filed their own website, it was probably in a
"best classified as" sense, rather than a "this is what our music is" sense.
Unless you consider Devo and Man Or Astro-Man? to be industrial - those are
ORI's two biggest influences, AFAIK.
Locke
collection:
|On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:40:32 -0000, "Barry Norton"
|<Barry...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
|>Again, as I posted, above, Industrial Rock and Gothic Industrial do not
|>exist.
|
|By that definition, nor should Industrial Dance.
Yeah, right. It shouldn't exist. Unfortunately it does.
CU,
Locke
NP: Add N To (X) "Add Insult to Injury"
--
_ __ ___ _ __ ___ \\|||//
| | / \ / _/| |/ /| _| / @ @ \
| |__| || || |_ | \ | _| (| \ |)
|____|\__/ \__\|_|\_\|___| \__=__/
| |
Locke
| Oh, and I used the [post-] prefix just to keep Locke off my back.
Well, a [post-] prefix doesn't help much to keep me off your back.
Better grow some big ugly warts on your back, that will do the job
just fine.
mo...@industrial.org
> Well, even though a Yahoo classification is certainly not the most
> accurate thing one could find, the idea of defining the genres not by
> rules or styles but rather by what the bands think of themselves is
> probablt the least arguable idea I've heard lately about genres.
The issue with the Yahoo layout is that they arbitrarily defined some
choices, most of which are lousy and if you want to be listed you have to
pick one. This is the genre equivalent to having to vote between two
parties you hate. =) If the bands could define their own genres then I
would agree. Not being able to choose though makes these terrible
choices.
IMHO of course.
Cheers
--
|) __,,_____________ codeGRUNT : <sl...@codegrunt.com> (|
|) < ___________/ moron : <mo...@industrial.org> (|
|) / /-' send EEEI news to : <info...@industrial.org (|
|) /___/ industrial & DIY culture : http://industrial.org (|
|) narc : http://industrial.org/narc/ (|
Misc
<mo...@industrial.org> wrote in message
news:97984617...@news.islandnet.com...
> Nicolas Chevreux <nic...@recycleyourears.com> wrote:
> > Well, even though a Yahoo classification is certainly not the most
> > accurate thing one could find, the idea of defining the genres not by
> > rules or styles but rather by what the bands think of themselves is
> > probablt the least arguable idea I've heard lately about genres.
>
> The issue with the Yahoo layout is that they arbitrarily defined some
> choices, most of which are lousy and if you want to be listed you have to
> pick one. This is the genre equivalent to having to vote between two
> parties you hate. =) If the bands could define their own genres then I
> would agree. Not being able to choose though makes these terrible
> choices.
>
> IMHO of course.
>
> Cheers
I only said they are Good Starting catergories
because if i were running a record store
or a website and you needed basic subgenres
to categorize them by it would probably be
a lot like yahoos ,because you couldnt list
every band wanting to have there own subgenre
section what would be the point of having them
so that the powernoisecoldwaveglitch-tingedebm
band is not in the same section with the ebmcoldwavepowernoise
also there didnt used to be a noise or industrial dj
listing in yahoo so im assuming that
some of these bands are ok with just falling into
the same category or else they could start there own
keefybabe
>>> type industrial music at yahoo
>>> these are the genres listed
>>> industrial traditional/experimental
>>> industrial dance
>>> industrial rock
>>> gothic industrial
>>
>>Again, as I posted, above, Industrial Rock and Gothic Industrial do not
>>exist.
>
>By that definition, nor should Industrial Dance.
>
If you are a 100% purist then industrial music died when industrial
music folded in the 80s.
Thankfully I am not.
----------------------------------------
"If you intend to fail, or fear that failure is
inevitable, then stick to unclear goals to hide
your incompetence"
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/8/clean_industrial.html (elektro/ebm)
http://www.mp3.com/sharpsinjury (scrape/noise)
http://www.mp3.com/fathergay (quirky music)
http://www.mp3.com/betablocked (ambient)
MT
Raisinlove <raisi...@my-deja.com> wrote...
>
> "MT" <M...@home.computer> wrote:
>
> > I'd say that there really is no such thing as "industrial
> > metal."
>
> I don't know... Would you qualify Psychopomps as coldwave?
Not everything has to fit into a genre, you know. There are those
fringe groups (Psychopomps, SMP, Babyland) that don't fit into the major
accepted subgenres. I'm not sure that warrants the creation of a (or three,
rather) new subgenre name.
> Coldwave seems more specific than just any guitar-tinged
> industrial styles.
That's right.
> Aghast View's Carcinopest certainly counts as coldwave
That's wrong. (It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure that's just
EBM with some guitars.)
> And then you have metal bands who use alot of electronics
> like Fear Factory and Strappling Young Lad.
I've heard both, and I just don't see such a strong deviation from
metal as I do in coldwave artists from [hard] rock.
MT
Barry Norton <Barry...@Hotmail.com> wrote...
>
> "MT" <M...@home.computer> wrote:
>
> there can fundamentally be no such thing as Industrial Rock
> nor Industrial Metal (nor an Industrial Gothic band).
I see where you're coming from, which is why I included the post- in
front of "industrial." Industrial rock doesn't fit the original attitude of
industrial, but then, most bands today that fit into the genre don't.
You seem to concede that coldwave is an accepted subgenre,
regardless of its appropriateness (or not). I'm just saying that "industrial
rock" is another way of saying it, even though the term is technically an
oxymoron.
NP - ML: _Pajama Party_
I just got this. I'm reminded of why I like these guys so much, all
over again.
Francois Labreque
fro...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Hmmm, MT? Empty!
>
Wrong.
Hint: I know it has something to do with is first name being "Mihir"
and his last name being "Tendulkar", but I haven't been able to put the
pieces together completely.
np: Gridlock - the synthetic form
Barry Norton
I'm not sure I see why - how does Dance music have its roots in a music that
Industrial fundamentally rejects?
Barry
"Marian Try Slaughter" <wldroses~SPAMOO~@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:v4be6t0krt88kj1jo...@4ax.com...
The Rattler
wldroses~SPAMOO~@telusplanet.net says...
> >"Misc" <stan....@gte.net> wrote:
[Snip!]
> >b. please adjust your column width. 80 chars per line should do.
>
> That isn't the problem, actually. So far as I can tell, he hits enter
> after each scentence (or fragment).
I think you're right, especially as it seems quite random as to where the
line breaks are... Maybe he wants to write each post as if it's a little
poem, direct from his heart to RMI. Aww, bless. ;)
--
"Ramalamalama Kenickie Kenickie!
Ramalamalama Kenickie Kenickie!"
**** Rattl...@hotmail.com
Marian Try Slaughter
<Barry...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I'm not sure I see why - how does Dance music have its roots in a music that
>Industrial fundamentally rejects?
Because it was meant to reject _all_ forms of pop music. Which dance
is most certainly one of.
np: blink twice - the demon haunter world
eschaton
Marian Try Slaughter wrote:
>
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:14:56 -0000, "Barry Norton"
> <Barry...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I'm not sure I see why - how does Dance music have its roots in a music that
> >Industrial fundamentally rejects?
>
> Because it was meant to reject _all_ forms of pop music. Which dance
> is most certainly one of.
AFAIK, the premise was not to reject, but to corrupt/co-opt for purposes
in a new context.
Marian Try Slaughter
All right, thats more along the lines of what I meant. However, Industrial dance
music generally focuses more on the dance (ie FV) than on the industrial. So I
guess yeah, in theory, Industrial dance could exist - it just doesn't.
That was rather limp-wristed.
Dayv!
>
> Maybe I should hold a contest asking people to propose their ideas
> I could make pie, and I could borrow Uncle Joe's barn, and-...
It's the logo from your superhero outfit, in your crimefighting role as
the Mighty Thong, of course!
--
-Dayv!
"Separation can be a terrifying thing."
Arbitrator
Dayv! wrote...
>
> MT <M...@home.computer> was all like:
> >
> > Maybe I should hold a contest asking people to propose
> > their ideas on what my initials really stand for. The best entry
> > would get a prize, and I could make pie, and I could borrow
> > Uncle Joe's barn, and-...
>
> It's the logo from your superhero outfit, in your crimefighting
> role as the Mighty Thong, of course!
This made me laugh so hard that I got a nosebleed.
Thrash
> >
>
> Stabbing Westward- ROCK
>
> Fear Factory- METAL
Very to the point and accurate, in my opinion.
Thrash
Thrash
> > like Fear Factory and Strappling Young Lad.
>
> I've heard both, and I just don't see such a strong deviation from
> metal as I do in coldwave artists from [hard] rock.
Fear factory is pretty much straight metal with some electronics
and a kind of "war against the machines" aesthetic. They used to be
pretty much straight metal in their first album.
I don't think they fall under industrial at all, with maybe a few
stylistic exceptions.
Thrash
Thrash
> traditonially been called metal. IMHO of course. Rage Against the Korn
> Biscuit are *not* metal.
Very, very true.
Fear Factory is a good example of a metal band with electronics. I've
heard them called "cyber-metal". But they're clearly in the realm of
metal, but with electronics and a cyborg aesthetic.
Thrash, the former metalhead
gigabrake
mo...@industrial.org wrote:
> I'd argue with this. Industrial rock really means rock with
industrial
> elements. Good examples would be Cop Shoot Cop, Tchkung or maybe
even the
> Swans depending on your point of view.
I would take objection to your point actually...first of all for the
most part CopShootCop didn't even use guitars(just two differently
tuned basses) and the rest of the line up included a Sampler/sequencer
player and a drummers using rather a lot of scrapmetal and
such...though their later stuff was more melodic and used guitars even
but at their purest Cop Shoot Cop has been the closest to Foetus,
unless you want to call Foetus Industrial Rock as well...
I think you will insult a lot of people, let alone the band by calling
Swans Industrial rock...I think their correct affiliation (if there is
such a thing) is the No-Wave, Anti-Rock or Art Rock scene which also
included Lydia Lynch and Sonic Youth...though thanks to all of these
artists frequently collaborating with Foetus, it would be hard not to
include them while reciting back the story of Industrial. Godflesh whom
you mentioned later on are in my opinion the best SWANS covers band in
the history...only Justin barely managed to skim the surface of the
Intensity and Violence of the SWANS..so how can you call one Industrial
Rock and the Other Industrial Metal??
Personally I hate both the terms and there was never the pressing need
for such coinage..as guitars were always utilized in the creation on
industrial music...TG, CV, DVA, SPK, EN, DAF, Foetus etc etc all used
guitars to certain degrees
I think the deviation occured when the riffing started...ala
Ministry...but we still had a pretty good term for that...aggro
yes aggro (not aggro industrial) was the term used to describe Ministry
(whom I love by the way) and the inevitable hordes of clones..and I
think it was quite a sufficient and apt description of the sound...
But if we must use the boring and tedious adages I will concur with you
on Pitchshifter being Industrial Metal
And I always thought Industrial Rock was the term the mainstream media
like Rolling Stones and SPIN etc used to describe NIN, Manson,
Rammstien and dozens of other glam tinged stuff...once again an apt
description though not exactly stuff I would come to RMI to discuss
np:Meat Beat Manifesto- Actual Sounds and Voices
gigabrake
--
"The word of course is one of the most powerful instruments of control
as exercised by the newspapers...If you start cutting these up and
rearranging them, you are breaking down the control system." W.S.B
Matt Bing
> include them while reciting back the story of Industrial. Godflesh whom
> you mentioned later on are in my opinion the best SWANS covers band in
> the history...only Justin barely managed to skim the surface of the
> Intensity and Violence of the SWANS..so how can you call one Industrial
> Rock and the Other Industrial Metal??
I disagree. After the first few albums Godflesh transcended any direct
influences on their music and found their own unique sound.
> And I always thought Industrial Rock was the term the mainstream media
> like Rolling Stones and SPIN etc used to describe NIN, Manson,
> Rammstien and dozens of other glam tinged stuff...once again an apt
> description though not exactly stuff I would come to RMI to discuss
Agreed. Any musical label with more than one word is just silly.
eschaton
gigabrake wrote:
>
> In article <97978260...@news.islandnet.com>,
> mo...@industrial.org wrote:
> > I'd argue with this. Industrial rock really means rock with
> industrial
> > elements. Good examples would be Cop Shoot Cop, Tchkung or maybe
> even the
> > Swans depending on your point of view.
>
> I would take objection to your point actually...first of all for the
> most part CopShootCop didn't even use guitars(just two differently
> tuned basses) and the rest of the line up included a Sampler/sequencer
> player and a drummers using rather a lot of scrapmetal and
> such...though their later stuff was more melodic and used guitars even
> but at their purest Cop Shoot Cop has been the closest to Foetus,
> unless you want to call Foetus Industrial Rock as well...
How can you NOT call Foetus industrial rock? Even in is early days,
before the guitar overpowered everything, Foetus fused together rock &
roll's irreverance and showmanship with industrial ideas. Even in the
early to mid 80's he was doing songs with funk, surf, and rockabilly
overtones...not to mention all the non-rock non industrial influences,
like swing. Foetus is an excellent example I think of industrial rock
that has nothing at all to do with coldwave.
Locke
|How can you NOT call Foetus industrial rock? Even in is early days,
|before the guitar overpowered everything, Foetus fused together rock &
|roll's irreverance and showmanship with industrial ideas. Even in the
|early to mid 80's he was doing songs with funk, surf, and rockabilly
|overtones...not to mention all the non-rock non industrial influences,
|like swing. Foetus is an excellent example I think of industrial rock
|that has nothing at all to do with coldwave.
Well, if you accept Moron's definition of "industrial rock" as rock
with heavy industrial influences, then Foetus is not industrial rock
(except everything from GASH onwards). Early Foetus not too much to
do with rock (DEAF for instance). At best you could classify his
music as industrial with rock influences but like you admitted there
were many more than just rock influences. So you can't say his music
is rooted mainly in rock.
Cop Shoot Cop on the other hand I would classify as industrial rock.
Their use of two basses is a clear variation of the typical rock band
line up so that you can say that they're rooted in the rock genre.
And they're not coldwave either.
CU,
locke
NP: Big City Orchestra "The Consumer"
gigabrake
ma...@csis.gvsu.edu wrote:
> gigabrake said:
> > include them while reciting back the story of Industrial. Godflesh
whom
> > you mentioned later on are in my opinion the best SWANS covers band
in
> > the history...only Justin barely managed to skim the surface of the
> > Intensity and Violence of the SWANS..so how can you call one
Industrial
> > Rock and the Other Industrial Metal??
>
> I disagree. After the first few albums Godflesh transcended any
direct
> influences on their music and found their own unique sound.
I agree with you there too..they did evolve, but I was just using it as
a comparative argument about calling one Industrial rock and other
Industrial metal...though the terms make me go yeeeesh...I mean the
sheer atonal, dissonance of the SWANS albums in question...(every thing
till Greed/Holy Money) is the antithesis of rock, which to me is verse,
chorus verse frivolity...nothing more
>
> > And I always thought Industrial Rock was the term the mainstream
media
> > like Rolling Stones and SPIN etc used to describe NIN, Manson,
> > Rammstien and dozens of other glam tinged stuff...once again an apt
> > description though not exactly stuff I would come to RMI to discuss
>
> Agreed. Any musical label with more than one word is just silly.
>
amen to that :)
np:SWANS-Cop :)
gigabrake
eschaton <hzimm...@snet.net> wrote:
> > but at their purest Cop Shoot Cop has been the closest to Foetus,
> > unless you want to call Foetus Industrial Rock as well...
>
> How can you NOT call Foetus industrial rock? Even in is early days,
> before the guitar overpowered everything, Foetus fused together rock &
> roll's irreverance and showmanship with industrial ideas. Even in the
> early to mid 80's he was doing songs with funk, surf, and rockabilly
> overtones...not to mention all the non-rock non industrial influences,
> like swing. Foetus is an excellent example I think of industrial rock
> that has nothing at all to do with coldwave.
>
this is not an invitation for another looong session of eschathon and
on and on....but you have contradicted your self right there...Foetus
is too elusive an anomoly to be pinned down to the Industrial Rock....
funk is NOT rock..swing is NOT rock...and what of the chamber music,
music concrete, jazz, avant-garde, symphonic and operatic and various
ethnic (mostly japanese :))idioms that Thirwell regulary reconfigures
and fuses into his music...you going to trivialize all of that and lump
it under Rock??
and rock n' roll was irreverant in the past way ago time...and if to
you spoofing and satirizing the crotch rock showmanship MAKES one a
crotch rock showman then maybe I should not be wasting my breath...
np:SWANS-Cop
gigabrake
Locke <_Loc...@web.de> wrote:
> Well, if you accept Moron's definition of "industrial rock" as rock
> with heavy industrial influences, then Foetus is not industrial rock
> (except everything from GASH onwards). Early Foetus not too much to
> do with rock (DEAF for instance). At best you could classify his
> music as industrial with rock influences but like you admitted there
> were many more than just rock influences. So you can't say his music
> is rooted mainly in rock.
agree with you there
>
> Cop Shoot Cop on the other hand I would classify as industrial rock.
> Their use of two basses is a clear variation of the typical rock band
> line up so that you can say that they're rooted in the rock genre.
> And they're not coldwave either.
nope disagree...Cop Shot Cop has a lot more to do with NY Noise or
Noise Core scene with bands like Unsane, Honeymoon Killers..early early
Helmet etc etc...but what seperated them from that scene and brought
them closer to Industrial was their use of samplers and heavy metallic
percussion...Their album "Consumer Revolt" was produced by the
frequent Thirwell colaborator Martin Bisi...TOD A's lyrics have a hint
of Lou Reed and the Velvet's in there...His later project "firewater"
has a lot of Velvet in it :) not quite the hard rock crossover to
Industrial fodder I hope you will agree...
I am primarily disagreeing because I consider Industrial Rock to be a
derogatory term...most of Industrial Rock is basically Hard Rock bands
just throwing in sequencers and electronics to cash in on the minor
blip in the Simulacra which was the Manson fad...Cop Shot Cop's two
bass ethic also harkens back to the SWANS and the seminary NY Noise, No
Wave scene
cheers
gigabrake
> with heavy industrial influences, then Foetus is not industrial rock
> (except everything from GASH onwards). Early Foetus not too much to
> do with rock (DEAF for instance). At best you could classify his
> music as industrial with rock influences but like you admitted there
> were many more than just rock influences. So you can't say his music
> is rooted mainly in rock.
agree with you there
>
> Cop Shoot Cop on the other hand I would classify as industrial rock.
> Their use of two basses is a clear variation of the typical rock band
> line up so that you can say that they're rooted in the rock genre.
> And they're not coldwave either.
nope disagree...Cop Shot Cop has a lot more to do with NY Noise or
Noise Core scene with bands like Unsane, Honeymoon Killers..early early
Helmet etc etc...but what seperated them from that scene and brought
them closer to Industrial was their use of samplers and heavy metallic
percussion...Their album "Consumer Revolt" was produced by the
frequent Thirwell colaborator Martin Bisi...TOD A's lyrics have a hint
of Lou Reed and the Velvet's in there...His later project "firewater"
has a lot of Velvet in it :) not quite the hard rock crossover to
Industrial fodder I hope you will agree...
I am primarily disagreeing because I consider Industrial Rock to be a
derogatory term...most of Industrial Rock is basically Hard Rock bands
just throwing in sequencers and electronics to cash in on the minor
blip in the Simulacra which was the Manson fad...Cop Shot Cop's two
bass ethic also harkens back to the SWANS and the seminary NY Noise, No
Wave scene
cheers
gigabrake
Locke
|I am primarily disagreeing because I consider Industrial Rock to be a
|derogatory term...most of Industrial Rock is basically Hard Rock bands
|just throwing in sequencers and electronics to cash in on the minor
|blip in the Simulacra which was the Manson fad...
Okay, maybe that's the reason, different opinions on the term
industrial rock. I never use genre names as derogatory terms because
I hold the belief that every genre has something good and something
bad in it (maybe to varying degrees). A genre name is merely a
description where the musician is coming from and which methods are
used on a piece.
People start to act pretty silly when they determine the worth by
means of genre names. Suddenly they believe their favorite band 'must
be industrial' because otherwise they can't like it anymore. That's
bullshit!
CU,
Locke
NP: P.A.L "Release"
StvCD7
>on and on....but you have contradicted your self right there...Foetus
>is too elusive an anomoly to be pinned down to the Industrial Rock....
>
>funk is NOT rock..swing is NOT rock..
I thought crack was rock....?
gigabrake
Locke <_Loc...@web.de> wrote:
>
> Okay, maybe that's the reason, different opinions on the term
> industrial rock. I never use genre names as derogatory terms because
> I hold the belief that every genre has something good and something
> bad in it (maybe to varying degrees). A genre name is merely a
> description where the musician is coming from and which methods are
> used on a piece.
don't disagree with you there, it is just the process of
reconfiguration of the older bands with newly coined terms that annoy
me, I mean SWANS were around when the post-industrial was just starting
to occur, to a lot of people I know SWANS are Industrial, period.
Mainly because there was nothing else to compare them with, and they
had the
massive metallic percussion, atonal and crushing bass and guitar work,
chanting vocals and frieghtning imagery in the lyrics to boot..not to
mention the frequent use of tape loops, to many that qualified them as
an Industrial band.
I mean even Neubauten has a more or less similar line up to SWANS and
Cop Shot Cop, dissonant guitar, heavy distorted bass lines played by a
bassist, tape loops, and massive, massive percussion...I know it is
clanging and the banging that sets EN apart but a percussionist can be
said to fill in the drummers stool, what do we have then, guitar, bass,
drums, percussion, samples and loops..once again a rock lineup... I
know this is a slippery slope...but I would not have a problem with the
term Industrial Rock if the mainstream press didn't bandy it around to
describe any one and everyone from NIN, Manson, Filter, Rammstien etc
to Korn, Orgy and Slipknot...
using terms like Industrial Rock to describe SWANS etc just lumps them
in with stuff like Filter and Gravity Kills etc etc..It is not only a
disservice to the band but also to the potential fans who might just
totally dig their whole trip, but maybe reluctant to check them out
because the label sold them short...same for Foetus...and for Cop Shoot
Cop...
>
> People start to act pretty silly when they determine the worth by
> means of genre names. Suddenly they believe their favorite band 'must
> be industrial' because otherwise they can't like it anymore. That's
> bullshit!
I know... I listen to a wide variety my self but the first that comes
to my mind when I hear a band is...This is Lustmord, or this is The
Cows...not this is Industrial...and this is Midwestern Noise Core...
but I know the point you are trying to make..people can get all
possessive and odssessed with labels...it is all rather silly..I agree
absolutely :)
mo...@industrial.org
> I would take objection to your point actually...first of all for the
> most part CopShootCop didn't even use guitars(just two differently
> tuned basses) and the rest of the line up included a Sampler/sequencer
> player and a drummers using rather a lot of scrapmetal and
> such...though their later stuff was more melodic and used guitars even
> but at their purest Cop Shoot Cop has been the closest to Foetus,
> unless you want to call Foetus Industrial Rock as well...
FIrst off, I am quite aware of what instrumentation CSC used. I've been a
fan since their first 7" and I even played a show in Vancouver with
them once at the second Cruel Elephant in gastown (and they crashed at my
associate's house in Vancouver).
A bass is a guitar silly. In CSC's case, even more so because one was
pitched up via a pitch shifter. Yes they used junk percussion and
sampling but underneath it all was a very strong rock/blues underpinning
with some perhaps even "swing" sensibilities. Sorty of like NoMeansNo
meets Birthday Party at a Filth Pig era Swans show.
> I think you will insult a lot of people, let alone the band by calling
> Swans Industrial rock...I think their correct affiliation (if there is
> such a thing) is the No-Wave, Anti-Rock or Art Rock scene which also
> included Lydia Lynch and Sonic Youth...though thanks to all of these
> artists frequently collaborating with Foetus, it would be hard not to
> include them while reciting back the story of Industrial.
I think that the were part of the New York noise rock scene along with the
Unsane, Helmet, Surgery, etc. though obviously they were friends with R.
Kern, Jim Thirwell, etc. And I seriously doubt whether they would be
insulted by being called "industrial rock".
> Godflesh whom
> you mentioned later on are in my opinion the best SWANS covers band in
> the history...only Justin barely managed to skim the surface of the
> Intensity and Violence of the SWANS..so how can you call one Industrial
> Rock and the Other Industrial Metal??
Godflesh are firmly from the grindcore/death metal camp. There is no
doubt that Streetcleaner has more in common with Napalm Death and Big
Black than the Swans IMHO, especially considering its lineage.
> But if we must use the boring and tedious adages I will concur with you
> on Pitchshifter being Industrial Metal
Not anymore. . .now they are some kinda of Mach 3 Razor commercial rock.
=)
> And I always thought Industrial Rock was the term the mainstream media
> like Rolling Stones and SPIN etc used to describe NIN, Manson,
> Rammstien and dozens of other glam tinged stuff...once again an apt
> description though not exactly stuff I would come to RMI to discuss
RMI discusses everything mang, it's as much the glammy Rammsteiner's as it
is the SPKs and the Dissecting Tablers.
Cheers
--
|) __,,_____________ codeGRUNT : <sl...@codegrunt.com> (|
|) < ___________/ moron : <mo...@industrial.org> (|
|) / /-' send EEEI news to : <info...@industrial.org (|
|) /___/ industrial & DIY culture : http://industrial.org (|
|) narc : http://industrial.org/narc/ (|
Dayv!
>
> Sorty of like NoMeansNo meets Birthday Party at a Filth Pig era Swans
> show.
Dude, that hurts my brain. Swans released Filth during their days of
association with the scene in NYC sometimes called the "pigfucker scene,"
Ministry released Filth Pig sometime after losing their grasp on decent
songwriting. Not that you didn't know that and it wasn't a simple error,
but I had to say something anyway.
np: Brighter Death Now- Innerwar (ah, music to work by)
--
-Dayv!
"Something snapped..."
gigabrake
mo...@industrial.org wrote:
>
> FIrst off, I am quite aware of what instrumentation CSC used. I've
been a
> fan since their first 7" and I even played a show in Vancouver with
> them once at the second Cruel Elephant in gastown (and they crashed
at my
> associate's house in Vancouver).
>
> A bass is a guitar silly. In CSC's case, even more so because one was
> pitched up via a pitch shifter. Yes they used junk percussion and
> sampling but underneath it all was a very strong rock/blues
underpinning
true...true...I play a bass myself, top two strings the heaviest gauge,
the two lower ones piccollo, played through a zillion effects, both the
CSC basses in one hehehe but I have always been down on guitarists as
they always saw me as a threat and none lasted for more than a couple
of months :) my favourite anti-guitar joke has been the one where the
guitar is like a haemoriod...soon every asshole gets one..;) but
seriously that's just the bitter grumbling me...love the guitar as an
instrument..especially all you can do with it once you stop playing the
chords and the notes, turn the distortions up, coax out the feedback
and let it sing oooooh maaaan....but it is my bitterness with
guitarists that brought on the bend about individuality of bass as an
instrument...of the fat, rounded, growling notes being superiors to the
guitars' etc etc...call me the leader of the Bass Liberation Front if
you must...LOL...and CSC is one of the examples I cite...
> with some perhaps even "swing" sensibilities. Sorty of like NoMeansNo
> meets Birthday Party at a Filth Pig era Swans show.
hmm pretty good description..but it still aint quite rock is it? or not
what gets associated with Industrial Rock
>
> > I think you will insult a lot of people, let alone the band by
calling
> > Swans Industrial rock...I think their correct affiliation (if there
is
> > such a thing) is the No-Wave, Anti-Rock or Art Rock scene which also
> > included Lydia Lynch and Sonic Youth...though thanks to all of these
> > artists frequently collaborating with Foetus, it would be hard not
to
> > include them while reciting back the story of Industrial.
>
> I think that the were part of the New York noise rock scene along
with the
> Unsane, Helmet, Surgery, etc. though obviously they were friends with
R.
> Kern, Jim Thirwell, etc. And I seriously doubt whether they would be
> insulted by being called "industrial rock".
You talking about SWANS or CSC here? CSC yes I said that in a previous
post...I discovered CSC on a NoiseCore compilation..along with
Lubricated Goat, Laughing Hyenas even a video of Butterfly Potion on
there..and in those circles if I had dares called this stuff rock
anything...let's just say my blood would have been
spilled...hehehe..call it forced conditioning...;)
SWANS no..they predate most...the earliest SWANS ep reminds me a wee
bit of Killing Joke but their sound changed drastically by the next
release....
and for the Godflesh connection to the sound thing..try COP...lots of
similar guitar textures and beats...Greed and Holy Money inspired lots
of the Slavestate as well...
>
> > Godflesh whom
> > you mentioned later on are in my opinion the best SWANS covers band
in
> > the history...only Justin barely managed to skim the surface of the
> > Intensity and Violence of the SWANS..so how can you call one
Industrial
> > Rock and the Other Industrial Metal??
>
> Godflesh are firmly from the grindcore/death metal camp. There is no
> doubt that Streetcleaner has more in common with Napalm Death and Big
> Black than the Swans IMHO, especially considering its lineage.
most of the death metalers, grindcore fans I knew hated Godflesh..too up
(the drum machine beats) for the deathers and too slow for the Cannibal
Corpsists..Naplam Death were originally Hard Core...Godflesh never
indulged in the graphic autopsy shenanigans of either camp..hence a wee
bit more mature..Big Black we are getting warmer here..Head of David
sounded lots like BB..Albini produced Dustbowl after all...But Justin
lacks the sense of humour or the tendency to just cut loose and swing..
>
> > But if we must use the boring and tedious adages I will concur with
you
> > on Pitchshifter being Industrial Metal
>
> Not anymore. . .now they are some kinda of Mach 3 Razor commercial
rock.
>
true..true...last good album was Desensitized
> =)
>
> > And I always thought Industrial Rock was the term the mainstream
media
> > like Rolling Stones and SPIN etc used to describe NIN, Manson,
> > Rammstien and dozens of other glam tinged stuff...once again an apt
> > description though not exactly stuff I would come to RMI to discuss
>
> RMI discusses everything mang, it's as much the glammy Rammsteiner's
as it
> is the SPKs and the Dissecting Tablers.
yep, I know that...I just chose not to discuss that stuff
here...personal choice in the matter..nothing more ;)
>
> Cheers
Cheers back atcha ;)
np: MORTAR- compilation
gigabrake
>
> FIrst off, I am quite aware of what instrumentation CSC used. I've
been a
> fan since their first 7" and I even played a show in Vancouver with
> them once at the second Cruel Elephant in gastown (and they crashed
at my
> associate's house in Vancouver).
>
> A bass is a guitar silly. In CSC's case, even more so because one was
> pitched up via a pitch shifter. Yes they used junk percussion and
> sampling but underneath it all was a very strong rock/blues
underpinning
true...true...I play a bass myself, top two strings the heaviest gauge,
the two lower ones piccollo, played through a zillion effects, both the
CSC basses in one hehehe but I have always been down on guitarists as
they always saw me as a threat and none lasted for more than a couple
of months :) my favourite anti-guitar joke has been the one where the
guitar is like a haemoriod...soon every asshole gets one..;) but
seriously that's just the bitter grumbling me...love the guitar as an
instrument..especially all you can do with it once you stop playing the
chords and the notes, turn the distortions up, coax out the feedback
and let it sing oooooh maaaan....but it is my bitterness with
guitarists that brought on the bend about individuality of bass as an
instrument...of the fat, rounded, growling notes being superiors to the
guitars' etc etc...call me the leader of the Bass Liberation Front if
you must...LOL...and CSC is one of the examples I cite...
> with some perhaps even "swing" sensibilities. Sorty of like NoMeansNo
> meets Birthday Party at a Filth Pig era Swans show.
hmm pretty good description..but it still aint quite rock is it? or not
what gets associated with Industrial Rock
>
> > I think you will insult a lot of people, let alone the band by
calling
> > Swans Industrial rock...I think their correct affiliation (if there
is
> > such a thing) is the No-Wave, Anti-Rock or Art Rock scene which also
> > included Lydia Lynch and Sonic Youth...though thanks to all of these
> > artists frequently collaborating with Foetus, it would be hard not
to
> > include them while reciting back the story of Industrial.
>
> I think that the were part of the New York noise rock scene along
with the
> Unsane, Helmet, Surgery, etc. though obviously they were friends with
R.
> Kern, Jim Thirwell, etc. And I seriously doubt whether they would be
> insulted by being called "industrial rock".
You talking about SWANS or CSC here? CSC yes I said that in a previous
post...I discovered CSC on a NoiseCore compilation..along with
Lubricated Goat, Laughing Hyenas even a video of Butterfly Potion on
there..and in those circles if I had dares called this stuff rock
anything...let's just say my blood would have been
spilled...hehehe..call it forced conditioning...;)
SWANS no..they predate most...the earliest SWANS ep reminds me a wee
bit of Killing Joke but their sound changed drastically by the next
release....
and for the Godflesh connection to the sound thing..try COP...lots of
similar guitar textures and beats...Greed and Holy Money inspired lots
of the Slavestate as well...
>
> > Godflesh whom
> > you mentioned later on are in my opinion the best SWANS covers band
in
> > the history...only Justin barely managed to skim the surface of the
> > Intensity and Violence of the SWANS..so how can you call one
Industrial
> > Rock and the Other Industrial Metal??
>
> Godflesh are firmly from the grindcore/death metal camp. There is no
> doubt that Streetcleaner has more in common with Napalm Death and Big
> Black than the Swans IMHO, especially considering its lineage.
most of the death metalers, grindcore fans I knew hated Godflesh..too up
(the drum machine beats) for the deathers and too slow for the Cannibal
Corpsists..Naplam Death were originally Hard Core...Godflesh never
indulged in the graphic autopsy shenanigans of either camp..hence a wee
bit more mature..Big Black we are getting warmer here..Head of David
sounded lots like BB..Albini produced Dustbowl after all...But Justin
lacks the sense of humour or the tendency to just cut loose and swing..
>
> > But if we must use the boring and tedious adages I will concur with
you
> > on Pitchshifter being Industrial Metal
>
> Not anymore. . .now they are some kinda of Mach 3 Razor commercial
rock.
>
true..true...last good album was Desensitized
> =)
>
> > And I always thought Industrial Rock was the term the mainstream
media
> > like Rolling Stones and SPIN etc used to describe NIN, Manson,
> > Rammstien and dozens of other glam tinged stuff...once again an apt
> > description though not exactly stuff I would come to RMI to discuss
>
> RMI discusses everything mang, it's as much the glammy Rammsteiner's
as it
> is the SPKs and the Dissecting Tablers.
yep, I know that...I just chose not to discuss that stuff
here...personal choice in the matter..nothing more ;)
>
> Cheers
Cheers back atcha ;)
np: MORTAR- compilation
gigabrake
gigabrake
gigabrake
"Dayv!" <laug...@yourpainBAD-ASS-SPAMTRAP.com> wrote:
> mo...@industrial.org was all like:
> >
> > Sorty of like NoMeansNo meets Birthday Party at a Filth Pig era
Swans
> > show.
>
> Dude, that hurts my brain. Swans released Filth during their days
of
> association with the scene in NYC sometimes called the "pigfucker
scene,"
> Ministry released Filth Pig sometime after losing their grasp on
decent
> songwriting. Not that you didn't know that and it wasn't a simple
error,
> but I had to say something anyway.
I actually like Filth Pig...cause it always kinda reminded of the slow
deliberate and intense kinda Swans Filth era trip..not many people
caught on to that...they just thought it was Ministry with OOS after
all the jackhammer at 100 mph string of albums ..hehehe
np: MORTAR
eschaton
Locke wrote:
> eschaton added the following to rec.music.industrial's collection:
> |How can you NOT call Foetus industrial rock? Even in is early days,
> |before the guitar overpowered everything, Foetus fused together rock &
> |roll's irreverance and showmanship with industrial ideas. Even in the
> |early to mid 80's he was doing songs with funk, surf, and rockabilly
> |overtones...not to mention all the non-rock non industrial influences,
> |like swing. Foetus is an excellent example I think of industrial rock
> |that has nothing at all to do with coldwave.
>
> Well, if you accept Moron's definition of "industrial rock" as rock
> with heavy industrial influences, then Foetus is not industrial rock
> (except everything from GASH onwards). Early Foetus not too much to
> do with rock (DEAF for instance). At best you could classify his
> music as industrial with rock influences but like you admitted there
> were many more than just rock influences. So you can't say his music
> is rooted mainly in rock.
Perhaps you are right, as industrial rock puts emphasis on the rock (as it
syntaticly would mean rock with industrial influences) whereas I see foetus
still as industrial that attempted (more than anyone else of his era at
least) to utilize rock music elements in very anti-rock contexts.
e n -
wrote:
>In article <97978260...@news.islandnet.com>,
> mo...@industrial.org wrote:
>> I'd argue with this. Industrial rock really means rock with
>industrial
>> elements. Good examples would be Cop Shoot Cop, Tchkung or maybe
>even the
>> Swans depending on your point of view.
>
>
>I think you will insult a lot of people, let alone the band by calling
>Swans Industrial rock...I think their correct affiliation (if there is
>such a thing) is the No-Wave, Anti-Rock or Art Rock scene which also
>included Lydia Lynch and Sonic Youth...though thanks to all of these
>artists frequently collaborating with Foetus, it would be hard not to
>include them while reciting back the story of Industrial. Godflesh whom
>you mentioned later on are in my opinion the best SWANS covers band in
>the history...only Justin barely managed to skim the surface of the
>Intensity and Violence of the SWANS..so how can you call one Industrial
>Rock and the Other Industrial Metal??
i'd have to agree with your definition of swans. or rather
non-definition. i think though, that foetus almost more belongs to the
NY art rock scene of that time. it's sort of difficult to discern as
he was intimately involved with both at the same time. but as much as
much of his music uses what many refer to as "industrial" sounds, i
think that structurally most of his stuff does not resemble
industrial, nor is it an accurate structural representation of the
industrial aesthetic. his very very early work (we're talking about
the difficult to find early 12" which i've only heard because of that
harvard foetus broadcast as well as a few lucky finds in london)
sounds industrial. but once you start getting into full length type
releases i think he very much diverges from the industrial aesthetic
in that his form of rebellion is about subversion rather than
redefinition. meaning that rather than taking the form of a radical
departure in terms of composition the expression came from
amalgamation of musical elements and the contrast or harmony with very
satiric, cynical, pop-culture oriented lyrics. while this isn't
necessarily the most accurate description of ache and deaf, he does
begin to do that in that period, and certainly by the time of hole one
cannot really call him industrial were it not for his associations.
actually i think really early swans has something of that industrial
feel adn sound, and more of their material could be arguably
industrial than thirlwell's though personally i don't categorize
either as industrial.
anyone with a more extensive foetus collection (locke? rattler? ) care
to chime in? i own a substantial amount for someone who was born in
1980 but despite the diligent searching and my advantageous geography,
there are some gaps in my collection with respect to his works in the
early 80's. though i managed to score a copy of finely honed machine
recently.
gigabrake
jy...@pantheon.yale.edu (e n - ) wrote:
> i'd have to agree with your definition of swans. or rather
> non-definition. i think though, that foetus almost more belongs to the
> NY art rock scene of that time. it's sort of difficult to discern as
> he was intimately involved with both at the same time. but as much as
> much of his music uses what many refer to as "industrial" sounds, i
> think that structurally most of his stuff does not resemble
> industrial, nor is it an accurate structural representation of the
> industrial aesthetic. his very very early work (we're talking about
> the difficult to find early 12" which i've only heard because of that
> harvard foetus broadcast as well as a few lucky finds in london)
> sounds industrial. but once you start getting into full length type
> releases i think he very much diverges from the industrial aesthetic
> in that his form of rebellion is about subversion rather than
> redefinition. meaning that rather than taking the form of a radical
> departure in terms of composition the expression came from
> amalgamation of musical elements and the contrast or harmony with very
> satiric, cynical, pop-culture oriented lyrics. while this isn't
> necessarily the most accurate description of ache and deaf, he does
> begin to do that in that period, and certainly by the time of hole one
> cannot really call him industrial were it not for his associations.
yes I have always considered Foetus to be well...Foetus..he is a genre
in and of himself...his later reapropriations of all the genre's and
throwing them all into a kind of bubbling post-modernist melting pot is
closest to John Zorn's ethic than anybody else..Zorn himself has had
ties with the NY Noise, Knitting Factory scene (along with about a
billion others :) )...but Foetus work can easily be a part of POST-
industrial, which was never about pulling out the very spine and
structure of the music...but more about subversion, reconfiguration and
reappropritation of the recognizable elements of music, and then
exploding them from inside out..The technique is also akin to a MEDIA
VIRUS where the host is tempted with the familiar, even faux nourishing
elements and once the whole package is embeded deep with in...the
hidden agenda is released...this also seems to be the ethic of the
second wave of NY Noise and Noise Core..which basically skinned the
decaying flesh of rock, turned it inside out and wore it like a
shaman's ritual skin...I personally think this form of subversion has
more lasting effects than any other form...nothing is more shocking or
disturbing than seeing the constants that you hold dear (in this case
the rock structures) being gradually mangled and disfigured...I think
this also accounts for the progressive shift in the mainstream that
occured during the 90's thinks you would never imagine getting mass
acceptance were getting millions in sales...But I don't quite know
where it all fell down and apart...I mean the resurgance of the
bubblegummiest aspects of popular culture taking over...
>
> actually i think really early swans has something of that industrial
> feel adn sound, and more of their material could be arguably
> industrial than thirlwell's though personally i don't categorize
> either as industrial.
agree absolutely I said so in another post somewhere else...No Wave is
the perfect description for them
armit...@my-deja.com
Okay I'm not really trying to say what's what, or who's what,
But here's something that I think sets everyone apart from being a Rock
Industrial band, or and Industrial Rock band.
My main view of what makes someone Industrial and what doesn't
is the song writing process. I.E. Alot of bands these days just write
straight up metal or rock songs, then hire a programmer or get their
producer to slip in the electronic elements. examples of this are, The
Clay People, Drown, Fear Factory,
And for Industrial bands or artist: writing their songs using
sequencers, drum machines, synths, loops etc, then go back and add
guitar, like NIN, KMFDM,Process Skinny Puppy Era, Front line
assembly "Millenium era.
But as it is no longer taboo to use synths with metal and
technology is more available than ever, their are going to be ALOT more
METAL/Rock bands using electronics in the future.
The main way you can tell is, when listening to a song imagine
ALL the electronics gone, would it still be a rock song, If yes, then I
don't consider it industrial anything. Industrial it seems has gone
from banging on found objects, and tape loops, to computers, synths,
sequencers, etc..But in all honest do whatever it takes to get a sound
your happy with
Best Wishes,
Dave
np: Tear Garden "Crystal Mass"