Industrial Music vs. Art
Mr. Sister
I had a thought about industrial music the other day that I thought I'd
share. First off, I want to say that I'm considering EBM and all other
genres discussed on this newsgroup to be industrial, so please put aside
your arguments as to what is and what is not industrial.
What I was thinking is that the way people view industrial music is a
lot like the way people view art (paintings, sculptures, etc). For
instance, a person can look at a beautiful landscape painting filled
with many layers and an incredible amount of detail and think "Wow, what
a great piece of art. Just look at the magnificant beauty." Whereas,
another person can look at the same painting and think "How unoriginal.
The artist is only painting what has already been created. There's
nothing innovative about that." Yet another person can look at the
painting and say "There's too much detail. This painting is just too
busy. There's no focus." Though those people have different opinions
on the same piece of art, none of them are wrong. The first person may
look at a piece of abstract art and think it's a bunch of crap. The
second person may think it's genius. The third person may think it's
somewhere in the middle.
I feel that this is the case with industrial music (or any kind of
music) as well. People's opinions vary greatly on the subject, but
nobody is right or wrong. I myself am of the opinion of the first
person when it comes to industrial music. I like structure, complexity,
and beauty, but I also like it to be familiar. I consider the music of
Front Line Assembly (and their side projects) to be like the landscape
painting. (I bring up FLA because there has been much debate about them
as of late). There's a great amount of detail and layering in their
music, and everything seems to fit together well. I can often listen to
a song several times and discover something I didn't hear before.
However, some people consider FLA's music to be unoriginal and too
formulaic. There are certain elements that are repeated in many of
their songs. But I prefer that, and I accept that other people don't.
I personally don't care much for old school industrial. It's too much
like abstract art to me. But many people do like it and have their
reasons.
People can be educated on the more abstract (I'm using the term loosely
of course) forms of art and can grow to appreciate it. I appreciate and
respect the more innovative industrial musicians, but I'd still rather
listen to FLA and the like. It's like looking at a piece of art in a
museum versus hanging it in your living room. I would hang the
beautiful landscape in my living room.
A lot of people on this newsgroup have a tendency to push their views of
industrial on other people and put down what other people like. It'd be
nice (of course nice isn't what this newsgroup seems to be about) if
people could be more helpful. Just recognize what other people like and
suggest other bands along the same lines. If you don't like the bands
that someone else does, then ignore them and discuss the band you do
like with other people. Or if you think the bands you listen to are
better, then explain why. Unwarranted criticism doesn't get you
anywhere. It can often turn people off to bands they might otherwise
have checked out.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Any opinions? I'm probably going to be
flamed for being too fluffy.
Mr. Sister
--
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Black Light
"Mr. Sister" <mrsi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Anyway, those are my thoughts. Any opinions? I'm probably going to be
>flamed for being too fluffy.
I hope not, because I agree! :-)
It's taken me long to get into Skinny Puppy (I'd compare them to
Salvador Dali, a bit bizzare with an odd twist) and started on
Download (got all four), but they're just too weird and experimental
(Picasso? :-) for me...
The masterpiece? Bill "Rembrandt" Leeb! :-)
NP: Covenant "Figurehead"
/Black Light
d...@programmer.net
"I'm the figurehead on a ship of fools" - Covenant
"Been there, done that, seen it, heard it, pissed on it" - Billy Corgan, Smashing Pumpkins
"I'm not interested" - Ichor
downfall
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Black Light wrote:
> It's taken me long to get into Skinny Puppy (I'd compare them to
> Salvador Dali, a bit bizzare with an odd twist) and started on
> Download (got all four), but they're just too weird and experimental
> (Picasso? :-) for me...
hm...i don't know *why* this popped into my head...but (k)now that i think
about it a little bit more, it makes sense...industrial musick has a
pop-artist, along thee lines ov andy warhol...his name is reznor (and no,
it's not bob!)...think about it.
-downfall
"the man has no sense of reality at all" - george drakoulias
ufo
... an interesting idea. Maybe the reason why I can't identify with a lot of
the music discussed here is that I'm a bit of a suprematist. Maybe it's
because FLA lack, erm, blackness and squareness.
I actually like the idea (just as a nice play) to equate art styles with pop
music. But I wouldn't equate FLA with landscape painting (that's naff pop),
it is naturalist but rather the repulsive naturalism of, say, Otto Dix (e.g.
Flanders: a nightmarish landscape, trenches filled with rotting corpses). I
think with a little bit of imagination we can nicely draw parallels between
industrial/techno and the 1920s art scene. We've even got two Cabaret
Voltaires! Only one question: Have the Soviet artists moved to Detroit?
(... in the end this could become an interesting thread for a change)
ufo (call me malevich)
daniel landherr
: I actually like the idea (just as a nice play) to equate art styles with pop
: it is naturalist but rather the repulsive naturalism of, say, Otto Dix (e.g.
: Flanders: a nightmarish landscape, trenches filled with rotting corpses). I
: think with a little bit of imagination we can nicely draw parallels between
: industrial/techno and the 1920s art scene. We've even got two Cabaret
: Voltaires! Only one question: Have the Soviet artists moved to Detroit?
: (... in the end this could become an interesting thread for a change)
Actually I think people's main problems with FLA were the lack of message
in the art, the fact that they're painting the same landscape a little too
often lately, and that they paint too many guitars into their wasteland.
Dan
Mr. Tangent
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:14:17 -0500, "Mr. Sister"
<mrsi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
<snip a very informative and well thought out synopsis>
All I can say is: that was very well written and I wish that more
people would be less cynical and critical of other people's opinions
and interests and get back to the object at hand....which is
industrial music. We need not criticize, but instead, try and further
our knowledge of industrial (and subgenres) music.
>Anyway, those are my thoughts. Any opinions? I'm probably going to be
>flamed for being too fluffy.
Nah..I wouldn't flame you after such a good diatribe (subliminal band
reference). You are totally correct my friend with all you said, so I
applaud you. If more people would stop flaming others then maybe we
wouldn't have to wade through all the bullshit on r.m.i. With that
said, I suppose that every newsgroup has it's 'Signal to Noise' ratio.
And for the record, I love both the 'abstract' (SPK, Lustmord, Coil,
Illusion of Safety, etc.) and the 'landscape' (FLA, Front 242, Skinny
Puppy, Portion Control, DAF, Clock DVA, etc.) as well as so much
more.....for example, the 'surreal' (Autechre, Future Sound of London,
Aphex Twin, etc.). It is good to have a wide range of interests.
Mr. Tangent
'I plan on eventually marketing my Home Lobotomy Kit®
sometime in the future, consisting of a ice pick and simple,
easy to follow instructions. Maybe I'll even market a home
Phlebotomy kit as well...for all the old timers and wanna be
vampire people who believe in bloodletting to cure ills of
every sort...'
-Aeryck E Anechiarico
jOhNtAyLoR
downfall (ew20...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote:
: On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Black Light wrote:
: > It's taken me long to get into Skinny Puppy (I'd compare them to
: > Salvador Dali, a bit bizzare with an odd twist) and started on
: > Download (got all four), but they're just too weird and experimental
: > (Picasso? :-) for me...
: hm...i don't know *why* this popped into my head...but (k)now that i think
: about it a little bit more, it makes sense...industrial musick has a
: pop-artist, along thee lines ov andy warhol...his name is reznor (and no,
: it's not bob!)...think about it.
Wouldn't a band that uses an extreme amount of sampling fit the POP art
title better?
I was thinking negitive land right away, but i'm sure theirs some better
ones.
Matt Moffett
: Wouldn't a band that uses an extreme amount of sampling fit the POP art
: title better?
: I was thinking negitive land right away, but i'm sure theirs some better
: ones.
First off, interesting thread. Being a painter, musician and fiction
writer it's one that has occurred to me, although I didn't start
making the links that people here have.
I see what you are saying about pop art and sampling, esp when concerning
Negativland. In some ways not too far off from what Rauschenberg and
Oldenberg did (mixing painting and collage could eqate with blending
music, sampling, etc..as well as the use or misuse of pop icons....have to
think it out more though). However, I
think if you throw in sampler artists like Ostertag, David Shea, Ikue Mori
you have to take the abstract expressionist and (esp with Mori) the
early
happenings influences into consideration as well....
matt
daniel landherr
: And for the record, I love both the 'abstract' (SPK, Lustmord, Coil,
: Illusion of Safety, etc.) and the 'landscape' (FLA, Front 242, Skinny
: Puppy, Portion Control, DAF, Clock DVA, etc.) as well as so much
: more.....for example, the 'surreal' (Autechre, Future Sound of London,
: Aphex Twin, etc.). It is good to have a wide range of interests.
I always thought that early EBM bands would fit in very well with the
minimalist post-modernists, with the later EBM being closer to cubism, but
I don't know that much about art. I definitely don't feel like EBM is a
landscape painting, it has a much more classical feel. I don't know if
Romanticism or even Impressionism has much of a parallel in industrial
music. For me industrial music is like Dadaism, Expressionism, Abstract
art, Deconstructionsism. If you want Romanticism, you have to go towards
goth, or maybe Chris and Cosey.
Dan
NP: F242 - Live Code (new buy!)
Now I really, really want to lock the target, paint the line, spread the
net, and catch the man like I never had before.
ufo
Mr. Tangent wrote:
>
> And for the record, I love both the 'abstract' (SPK, Lustmord, Coil,
> Illusion of Safety, etc.) and the 'landscape' (FLA, Front 242, Skinny
> Puppy, Portion Control, DAF, Clock DVA, etc.) as well as so much
> more.....for example, the 'surreal' (Autechre, Future Sound of London,
> Aphex Twin, etc.). It is good to have a wide range of interests.
Twin saying "Ceci n'est pas Drum'n'Bass"; I'd rather see the Twin as some sort of
post-Dadaist. His latest album definitely had a Schwitters feel (Merzbild) but
he's also very self-conscious in a postmodern way, and the way he takes up
influences also reminds me of the Situationists. But FSOL, agreed: very orange
desert, very turquoise sky. Dali.
Are SPK abstract? Their early work rather reminds me of the political artists in
1920s Germany, John Heartfield and George Grosz. Even the late SPK seem somewhat a
reflex of the late Grosz. I'd rather see the abstract artists in the
minimal-constructivist-synth genre. Kraftwerk e.g. are pretty rectangular already.
But Coil as some sort of Kandinsky seems an interesting idea. Have to think about
it. Merzbow, however, are clearly Jason Pollock. I wonder whether the
early Neubauten resemble Duchamp's ready-mades, who Joseph Beuys is, whether The
Normal are futurist, what resembles futurism. Too many questions.
ufo
Black Light
dlan...@ub.d.umn.edu (daniel landherr) wrote:
>NP: F242 - Live Code (new buy!)
>Now I really, really want to lock the target, paint the line, spread the
>net, and catch the man like I never had before.
Gotta scrape off some of _that_ paint, and replace it with some
blue... :-)
It's actually "_bait_ the line", but I have to admit, a long time ago,
in a galaxy far, far away, I did the _exact_ same mistake! :-)
NP: Nick Cave "Into My Arms" (Video), wait, it's over, back to:
Alpha Squad "Imploding Simplicity" (V/A _Art & Dance 6_)
phoenix.hawk
>it. Merzbow, however, are clearly Jason Pollock. I wonder whether the
>early Neubauten resemble Duchamp's ready-mades, who Joseph Beuys is, whether
What? Merzbow = pollack? Pollack made awesome paintings which actually
involved some work (although the method did not). Merzbow produces stuff as
utterly not aesthetically pleasing as possible.
This whole discussion is pretty damn silly, however. If you're going to talk
about a whole bunch of obscure painters, you might want to describe them... I
know most, but I have no idea who Schwitters and Grosz are.
For the unaware, Pollack does the drip paintings.
And, BTW, it's Jackson Pollack, not Jason Pollock.
phoenix.hawk
Robb Cunningham
phoenix.hawk wrote:
>
> >it. Merzbow, however, are clearly Jason Pollock. I wonder whether the
> >early Neubauten resemble Duchamp's ready-mades, who Joseph Beuys is, whether
>
> What? Merzbow = pollack?
I would say it is very hard to find a visual arts parallel for
japanoise, since it is very difficult to actually inflict pain on the
viewers of your art just by painting something. probably the closest
thing would be that "art brut" crap that many of the less respectable
noise artists use for their CD sleeves - violent, sexual, racist,
"shocking" imagery. although for some reason I am attracted to
japanoise but firmly repelled from art brut.
--
Robb Cunningham "THIS SENTENCE IS NOT TRUE"
go here: http://www.smartlink.net/~iceolate
C-ko
In article <33330D...@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de>, ufo
<Uff...@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de> wrote:
> I wonder....who Joseph Beuys is,
Joseph Beuys would be Mark Spybey and cEvin Key.
DUH!
;p
C-ko
<daemonus>
> On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Black Light wrote:
>
> > It's taken me long to get into Skinny Puppy (I'd compare them to
> > Salvador Dali, a bit bizzare with an odd twist) and started on
> > Download (got all four), but they're just too weird and experimental
> > (Picasso? :-) for me...
>
This is really only marginally relevant, but:
How many surrealists does it take to screw in light bulb?
Two- One to hold the giraffe and the other to fill the bathtub with
brightly colored machine tools.
How many r.m.i. readers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Fifty- one to screw in the lightbulb, and forty-nine others to stand
around arguing about whether or not screwing in a lightbulb is really
industrial or not.
>
>
<r.glass> who's feelling a fit of incredibly bad taste coming on...
...the shadowy, lurking "Gee Ren, isn't it
character in the corner... fun bein' a...FREAK!?"
-Stimpy
NP: Les Claypool and the Holy Mackeral "Highball With the Devil"
ALL SPAMMERS WILL BE SHOT, KILLED, AND EATEN
SB
> How many r.m.i. readers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
> Fifty- one to screw in the lightbulb, and forty-nine others to stand
> around arguing about whether or not screwing in a lightbulb is really
> industrial or not.
hehehehehehehehehehehehhehehehehehehehehehhehe Bravo! Excellent!
foe
abpu...@princeton.edu (phoenix.hawk) writes:
> This whole discussion is pretty damn silly, however. If you're going to talk
> about a whole bunch of obscure painters, you might want to describe them... I
> know most, but I have no idea who Schwitters and Grosz are.
By the way, you can speak to ppl who are aware of these obscure
painters ant they will not have any ideas of who are these silly noise
makers.
I'm pretty sure that industrial music and modern art can't be
different. Look at Brion Gysin's and W.S.Burroughs' audio and painted
cut-up's. They made something revolutionary. Now look at all
commercials and magazines, they content cut-up's. Rauschenberg did
also some wonderfull cut-up's.
We all know that Gen Orridge did some artworks. They are even some in
museum and galleries.
Ask to Mark Spybey the inluence Joseph Beuys had on his works.
The provocation of Duchamp can be found in some Einsturzende
Neubauten's.
> And, BTW, it's Jackson Pollack, not Jason Pollock.
I hope it's a joke : ))))
Jackson Pollack, very funny : ))))
Dimitri aka foe
Slavemaster @
http://dust.net/
Musique et culture industrielle.
Typographie et graphisme.