fascism in the modern industrial music
YG
I'm writing a paper on the influsence of fascism in the modern
industrial music. Does any of you can help me to locate information on the
subject ( papers, bands FAQs, Interviews... ) ?
Thanks.
|phalanx|
Militia may be of some help as well...maybe Grey Wolves as well.
"YG" <n...@na.com> wrote in message
news:44lO7.24519$Ju6.4...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Crudbreeder
Look for stuff about Boyd Rice and Dagda Mor, if you want stuff about
people who really are into that kind of shit...
If you wan't something more about how people have used fascist imagery
to prove some kind of point or just for schock value you should look
at Throbbing Gristle and Laibach...
I guess Con Dom would fit in that section too...
I don't really know where to place Death In June and Der Blutharsch,
same goes for MZ.412 and Folkstorm...
--
"So, I'm a dog, and you're a hen, what now?"
~People Like Us - T424PLU
YG
> YG wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> I'm writing a paper on the influsence of fascism in the modern
>> industrial music. Does any of you can help me to locate information on
>> the subject ( papers, bands FAQs, Interviews... ) ?
>
> Look for stuff about Boyd Rice and Dagda Mor, if you want stuff about
> people who really are into that kind of shit...
>
> If you wan't something more about how people have used fascist imagery
> to prove some kind of point or just for schock value you should look
> at Throbbing Gristle and Laibach...
>
> I guess Con Dom would fit in that section too...
>
> I don't really know where to place Death In June and Der Blutharsch,
> same goes for MZ.412 and Folkstorm...
>
How about military looking bands like Funker vogt or :Wumpscut: ?
They use lots of military symbols on their cover arts but they don't ansers
the question clearly when asked. Are they fascists ?
www.ynfynyty.com
the question clearly when asked. Are they fascists ?<<<<<
they are weaklings. if they were true fascists they would be involved with
politics and be trying to spread a view. in any event, wumpscut never struck
me as fascist in the first place, neither did FV. original poster may want to
look into laibach, but they are just playing you with any answer they give.
they have already been asked if they are fascist and they didn't answer rather
thay played some artsy game. so, not even laibach are fascists, even if they
believe they are.
'industrial' music wants so hard to get attention, it will associate itself
with fascism. it may look good in the books but these are just artists who
take a political stance (supposedly) because their music doesn't carry the
weight on it's own. in america and europe many skinheads arrive at
'industrial' shows, they think tanks and bombs are cool, as well as xenophobia,
but they are idiots. bigod20, ministry, both have racists following them, but
it doesn't reflect the nature of the musicians. good luck on your paper.
___________________
love rules the world
Raisinlove // forward
> They use lots of military symbols on their cover arts but they don't
ansers
> the question clearly when asked. Are they fascists ?
Seems like Wumpscut uses ww2 era images of people and war casualties rather
that military symbols, so I dont see the fascist element in Wumspcut,
especially if you read the lyrics.
-steph
www.raisinlove.com
webmaster @ drawnandquarterly.com
webmaster @ artoffact.com
webmaster @ elam.qc.ca
webmaster @ featuresonline.com
Sammy Mannaert
http://www.sanctuary.ch/report/DeathInJune/entree.htm
a report about the cancelled gig of death in june in lausanne.
other good things: some of the con-dom lyrics and der blutharsch
lyrics.
don't make conclusions too fast ! did you know douglas p of death
in june used to play in crisis ? (an extreme leftwing punkband)
many concerts get cancelled. maybe it would be interesting to
ask both sides how they feel/think about it. (recently in
holland a dies natalis concert was cancelled because they
couldn't play (banned). the group has recently split up
bacause of all this talk (atleast i believe)). could be
interesting to see how they think of all this :)
good luck with your paper (though almost everything i
read about the subject is utter crap)
ps: there are more good links to discover .. try google :)
Marian Try Slaughter
wrote:
>they are weaklings. if they were true fascists they would be involved with
>politics and be trying to spread a view. in any event, wumpscut never struck
>me as fascist in the first place, neither did FV. original poster may want to
>look into laibach, but they are just playing you with any answer they give.
>they have already been asked if they are fascist and they didn't answer rather
>thay played some artsy game. so, not even laibach are fascists, even if they
>believe they are.
"Laibach's politics does not take sides in anything. Except for the
fact that they hate blacks and Zionist conspirators."
"please if you get a chanse put some flowrs on Albernons grave in the bak
yard." - Simon - mhm27x5
Zoviet Squid
>they are weaklings. if they were true fascists they would be involved with
>politics and be trying to spread a view. in any event, wumpscut never struck
>me as fascist in the first place, neither did FV. original poster may want
>to
>look into laibach, but they are just playing you with any answer they give.
>they have already been asked if they are fascist and they didn't answer
>rather
>thay played some artsy game. so, not even laibach are fascists, even if they
>believe they are.
> 'industrial' music wants so hard to get attention, it will associate itself
>with fascism. it may look good in the books but these are just artists who
>take a political stance (supposedly) because their music doesn't carry the
>weight on it's own. in america and europe many skinheads arrive at
>'industrial' shows, they think tanks and bombs are cool, as well as
>xenophobia,
>but they are idiots.
Bands likes Throbbing Gristle and earlier industrial pioneers usually used
fascist imagery to convey social commentary in their performances, usually as
shock tactics to get people to think about certain subjects. Later on other
bands co-opted this as an image and use it because it looks 'cool'.
Bands like Laibach, Militia, Turbund Sturmwerk are politically active in some
manner and use their music to express that. I mean, saying "it may look good
in the books but these are just artists who
take a political stance (supposedly) because their music doesn't carry the
weight on it's own" is rediculous--if your art has political
commentary/ideas/whatever then of course you would too.
Bands like Death in June, Der Blutharsch, and probably Boyd Rice and most other
neofolk bands use it much like fetishism, sometimes implying spirituality to
justify it.
Power Electronic groups usually sway between the fetish aspects and using it as
social commentary.
The original poster might want to look into some neo-classical like Von
Thronstahl, who I think are a joke. That is, if they can stand the ultra-wimpy
macho-posturing crappiness of the military-esque side of neoclassical.
--zs
"shit...everything shits until it dies."--Bukowski
Mark R
Aside from totalitarian propaganda like themes and symbolism there is no
such thing in industrial, look somewhere else.
YG
> Seems like Wumpscut uses ww2 era images of people and war casualties
> rather that military symbols, so I dont see the fascist element in
> Wumspcut, especially if you read the lyrics.
Could any of you point me to the revelent lyrics of any of bands. It's
seems that the Industrial movement has absolutly no political opinion, at
least, no official one, can this be possible ?
Thanks !
www.ynfynyty.com
weight on it's own" is rediculous--if your art has political
yes, what i meant was it's stupid if they don't mean it and just use it for the
imagery. if they mean it, more power to the, whether i agree with them or not,
that's better than being fake. i understand what you mean.
www.ynfynyty.com
seems that the Industrial movement has absolutly no political opinion, at
least, no official one, can this be possible <<<<<<
there is a variety, very wide. try looking for lyrics by
skinny puppy
laibach
index
haujobb
front line assembly (although it's accepted that most people laugh at fla
lyrics, for some reason). just in the space of a few bands you will easily
find so much variety regarding politics and everything else. as for an
official opinion...haha. trying to determine that would start a war. we like
similar music but ideals are very different and there be no official stance.
skyblur
This topic is confusing at first: there are at least two main
"uses" of fascism in industrial music.
1. Bands that use fascist and/or militaristic iconography to
simulate the "control machine". The idea is the control machine
is so pervasive that the traditional modes of discourse, such as
direct social criticsm, have been coopted by the control machine
to such a degree that they are meaningless. Only the process of
simulation: create a fantasy world where the control machine's
desires are carried to some logical conclusion, usually mass
annihilation, can awaken people to its "danger". This approach
is more traditionally associated with the origins of industrial
music, and will be familiar to most readers of this group.
Examples go from Throbbing Gristle, Front 242, to Funker Vogt and
Wumpscut today. These bands are totally against fascism, but they
also freely associate fascism with the global capitalist hegemony,
which is traditionally a Marxist ideal (nothing wrong with that in
my book). To these people, "fascism" almost always means Nazism,
and not the popular/ritualistic elements, but the elements such as
labor/concentration camps and the total mobilization of industry
and global financial support.
2. Bands that are themselves fascist, especially who associate
themselves with the "left wing" of fascist ideology. If you learn
some about the history of generic fascist ideology, there is a
strong populist (Voelkisch), anti-capitalist component at its core
(read some of Roger Griffin's essays if you don't have the
background on this) which rejects all tenets of Enlightenment
Liberalism (today, referred as Neoliberalism) They associate
the control machine with Liberalism and blame its existence on
specific elements such as immigrants, Jews, etc. (often there
are code words such as "financial elites" which server the same
purpose in today's politically correct times.) Many look towards
the pre-Enlightenment ritualistic elements of European culture
especially the neopagan elements (again, I'm not suggesting
there's anything wrong with this perspective) Usually this core
is what the supporters of fascism identify with, regardless of
the actions of the leaders. The core manifests in historical
movements which are more obscure, such as Strasserism, National
Bolshevism, Third Position, New Right etc but which are
extremely relevant today. These movements attempt to recruit from
and coopt the ideas of the Left. The slogan "beyond left and
right" is often used, or my favorite "Hitler and Mao: United in
Struggle!" A prototype for this type of band is Death in June, who
in fact turned from the left-wing punk band Crisis. The band's
name refers among other things to the "Night of the Long Knives"
on June 29-30 1934 in which all Strasserite elements were purged
from the NSDAP. It has a dual meaning which recalls the
militaristic, pre-Enlightenment ideal of "dying at one's height"
(think of Hemingway's _Death in the Afternoon_ or Mishima's
_Death in Midsummer_), thereby playing up the heroic aspects of
this movement. Other (interesting) examples are Kadmon
(Allerseelen), Ain Soph, and so forth. There are substantial and
personal links with Third Position/National Bolshevik ideologues
such as Alain de Benoist (France), Robert Steuckers (Belgium),
Alexander Dugin (Russia), Tory Southgate (England) and so on
(on the other hand, *most* groups fight for independence from
actual political concerns, and strive for only aesthetic
concerns...) It seems the Russian movement (axis Dugin-Limonov)
is very popular with the youth and hence industrial scene there.
There is a recent article in The Wire magazine which covers this
scene. It seems also there is at least one alleged German
neo-Nazi label (VAWS) which gives support to this scene and the
industrial scene in general. Most of the discussion is in German
language, so you'll have a rough time getting much information
unless you read this language.
Above all, do your own thinking and beware of political biases
all around.
Then there is Laibach, which involves aspects of both "uses"
but isn't really in either camp, coming from some very specific
political concerns.
The main confusion comes because for those in (#1) camp, the
most effective simulation involves a healthy degree of
ambiguity, and a real merging with the control machine. There is
a slippery slope between criticism, genuine fascination and outright
participation. Besides there's no doubting that fascism, war and
so on is "sexy", death can be "beautiful" and so forth. Along
these lines, please remember that not all art has to be prostituted
to some political concern. The authors Mishima and Thomas Mann were
on opposite ends of the political spectrum, but had very much
sometimes the same aesthetic orientiation. Furthermore, the confusion
can be blamed on how those from the #2 camp try to recruit from the
left, and the general shared "anti-elitist" orientation of both camps.
Sorry for the long post but there is so much misinformation about
this topic, that has overt political consequences today when people
try to censor industrial bands. I want to generate some real
discussion, if possible, so everyone is informed about these issues,
so we can all fight the very real censorship that occurs.
-skyblur-
Crudbreeder
Of course it can...
There is not really an "industrial movement", it's just individuals who
have
somewhat common ideas about how music should be used and in what
directions it should be explored...
The only kind of somewhat coherent "industrial movement" there has ever
been was Throbbing Gristle/Industrial Records, and that ended in 1981
when both TG and IR ceased to exist and they proclaimed "industrial
music" to be dead...
The idea of any "official opinion" directly contradicts the fundamental
ideas behind "industrial music"...
k...@dystopianrecords.com
Contact Karen Collins at kcol...@liverpool.ac.uk. She is a Ph.D student
majoring in industrial music and did a paper on this topic. I think it's
actually on the web somewhere, but I don't have the link handy. She could
steer you in the right direction. Tell her Kevin from Dystopian Records
referred you.
-Kevin
eschaton
Of course it is. Industrial was founded not as a movement of political
protest, but an artistic protest. While art can be used as a vehicle
for politics, in actuality it can also be one of the most removed forms
of human interaction from issues dealing with simple politics. It often
wasn't about the intent AFAIK, but the medium.
Look at it this way. Say I decide to make a sculpture out of gun
parts. Am I attempting to say guns are a good thing in our society, or
a bad one? It all depends on interpretation. Indeed, many artists do
not want to beat you over the head with the agenda behind their art,
because it cheapens the whole experience.
Industrial was meant primarially to expand the boundaries of art, as any
advant-garde movement is, and to have a reaction upon the listener.
Individual musicians might have had politics to the left or the right,
and claiming they should all have an offical politics is as silly as
claiming all impressionist painters, or ephemeral film makers, should
have the same politics.
When you get to post-industrial (modern day stuff), the whole discussion
can be different, as the linkage to art as a whole has been drained out
as the connection to music in general became stronger. But, once again,
music is essentially apolitical. For every Woodie Guthrie or Jello
Biafra out there you have outspoken rightists, and you have a great many
people who either have no political opinions, or feel like they don't
belong in the personal expression of their music. Most 'politics' in
post-industrial, with the notable exception of Snog, aren't really
political at all IMO, and instead describe post-apocolyptic, futuristic
worlds because they are 'cool'.
Shutdown
> "Laibach's politics does not take sides in anything. Except for the
> fact that they hate blacks and Zionist conspirators."
Say WHAT?
--
Fix yourself up with a lifetime supply
of US military-grade latext cunts!
Shutdown
> The only kind of somewhat coherent "industrial movement" there has ever
> been was Throbbing Gristle/Industrial Records, and that ended in 1981
> when both TG and IR ceased to exist and they proclaimed "industrial
> music" to be dead...
They failed to recognize that they had created a monster of
frankensteinian proportions, which, like any decent monster, refuses to
die regardless of statements, proclamations and evidence to the
contrary. If naught else, it continues to shamble on in zombie-like
manner (fla+others).
Marian Try Slaughter
<aalio...@moerriemoekkye.org> wrote:
>Marian Try Slaughter wrote:
>> "Laibach's politics does not take sides in anything. Except for the
>> fact that they hate blacks and Zionist conspirators."
>
> Say WHAT?
Heh.
Crudbreeder
>
> Crudbreeder wrote:
> > The only kind of somewhat coherent "industrial movement" there has ever
> > been was Throbbing Gristle/Industrial Records, and that ended in 1981
> > when both TG and IR ceased to exist and they proclaimed "industrial
> > music" to be dead...
>
> They failed to recognize that they had created a monster of
> frankensteinian proportions, which, like any decent monster, refuses to
> die regardless of statements, proclamations and evidence to the
> contrary. If naught else, it continues to shamble on in zombie-like
> manner (fla+others).
Actually, I think that's what they realized and hence proclaimed it
dead as some sort of attempt to say "Hey, don't blame us! it was just a
joke goddammit!"
Or, maybe more likely, they realized that they had horrably failed to
acheived what they set out to do...
Ventolin
k...@dystopianrecords.com wrote in message ...
>Hi,
>
>Contact Karen Collins at kcol...@liverpool.ac.uk. She is a Ph.D student
>majoring in industrial music and did a paper on this topic.
Those community colleges sure come up with interesting classes.
vent.
Per
Mussolini Headkick?
--
PjerTheMutantVjiking AT[@] meow DOT[.] org
mhm 24x23 icq: 6047688 wgp.org/home/aavf3
NiteShade
s|phalanx| <sparro...@home.com> ... wrote:
> but I think Militia may be of some help as well...>
Excuse me for intruding, but Militia are extremely left, as they would
describe themselves: "ecological anarchists".
They have nothing to do with fascism whatsoever, allthough i understand the
confusion by just looking at their logo.
And on another note, Albin Julius of der Blutharsch once stormed off stage
and cut a concert short after someone in the audience raised his right hand.
grtz,
.:pascal:.
wim
well, then he only did that once, because he certainly didn't do it at
the db concerts i saw...
wimmelings
Rob
Maybe because it was the wrong right hand.
Rob
Bunkertor5
>
>They use lots of military symbols on their cover arts but they don't ansers
>the question clearly when asked. Are they fascists ?
actually, Rudy answered the question quite clearly when he was asked if the
person in the beton kopf logo was hitler. he said only a nazi would glorify
adolf hitler, and that his logo was a serial killer. go figure. ha.
Shutdown
Or maybe, just maybe, it worked out better than they had ever
imagined...
Crudbreeder
Now that's a scary thought...
GPO is holding some kind of lecture over here in February, maybe I
should ask him about that...
np: Bigod 20 - the bog
--
"blow it out your ass, you trendy little indie bitch."
~n8
Shutdown
>
> Shutdown wrote:
> >
> > Crudbreeder wrote:
> > >
> > > Shutdown wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Crudbreeder wrote:
> > > > > The only kind of somewhat coherent "industrial movement" there has ever
> > > > > been was Throbbing Gristle/Industrial Records, and that ended in 1981
> > > > > when both TG and IR ceased to exist and they proclaimed "industrial
> > > > > music" to be dead...
> > > >
> > > > They failed to recognize that they had created a monster of
> > > > frankensteinian proportions, which, like any decent monster, refuses to
> > > > die regardless of statements, proclamations and evidence to the
> > > > contrary. If naught else, it continues to shamble on in zombie-like
> > > > manner (fla+others).
> > >
> > > Actually, I think that's what they realized and hence proclaimed it
> > > dead as some sort of attempt to say "Hey, don't blame us! it was just a
> > > joke goddammit!"
> > >
> > > Or, maybe more likely, they realized that they had horrably failed to
> > > acheived what they set out to do...
> >
> > Or maybe, just maybe, it worked out better than they had ever
> > imagined...
>
> Now that's a scary thought...
True terror always lays in the direction you never expected.
k collins
> >Contact Karen Collins at kcol...@liverpool.ac.uk. She is a Ph.D student
> >majoring in industrial music and did a paper on this topic.
>
> Those community colleges sure come up with interesting classes.
>
> vent.
Well, actually I bought my PhD off an ad I got through email.
No, really, it's with the University of Liverpool, and no, it's not a
community college. Why do you think Industrial is not a subject worth
studying then?
Karen