Lata - 20 (R D Burman)
Satish Subramanian
---------------------------------------------------------------
Lata's Best?
Raju Bharatan, for Illustrated Weekly of India
---------------------------------------------------------------
Lata has opted in this album to hold the scale
even between RDB and LP. If LP have been favoured
with three selections, RDB wins like attention.
Probably, because Lata has always made a point of
the fact that she can effectively sing that RDB
style of compositions too - it is just that she
prefers to leave this genre to Asha!
Now Lata has named, from R D Burman's repertoire,
1. Dilbar dil se pyaare Dilbar (Caravan)
2. Na jaa mere humdum (Pyar Ka Mausam)
3. Tere liye palkon ki jhalar (Harjaae)
Only in the last of these three compositions do we
get the style of Lata vocals we expect from her
under RDB's baton.
Believe it or not, thanks to Lata, RDB was once
even in the running for a Sur-Singar award for the
virtuosity with which he had got her to render, in
the raag Jogiya, a number in "Chandan Ka Palna".
Can you spot out that "Chandan Ka Palna" Lata solo
on the N55264 78 rpm?
------------------------------------------------------------
This article is the last one in the series. Hope it was fun.
--
bye
satish
Renu Thamma
Satish Subramanian (subr...@cs.umn.edu) wrote:
: Believe it or not, thanks to Lata, RDB was once
: even in the running for a Sur-Singar award for the
: virtuosity with which he had got her to render, in
: the raag Jogiya, a number in "Chandan Ka Palna".
:
: Can you spot out that "Chandan Ka Palna" Lata solo
: on the N55264 78 rpm?
That would be 'O Ganga maiyya, paar lagaa de meri sapnon ki naiyya'?
Beautiful composition and even more beautifully sung..
Renu.
Vandana Venkatesan
Satish Subramanian (subr...@cs.umn.edu) wrote:
=> Lata has opted in this album to hold the scale
=> even between RDB and LP. If LP have been favoured
=> with three selections, RDB wins like attention.
=> Probably, because Lata has always made a point of
=> the fact that she can effectively sing that RDB
=> style of compositions too - it is just that she
=> prefers to leave this genre to Asha!
Such pure and unadulterated hype!
=> Now Lata has named, from R D Burman's repertoire,
=>
=>
=> 1. Dilbar dil se pyaare Dilbar (Caravan)
=> 2. Na jaa mere humdum (Pyar Ka Mausam)
=> 3. Tere liye palkon ki jhalar (Harjaae)
=>
=>
=> Only in the last of these three compositions do we
=> get the style of Lata vocals we expect from her
=> under RDB's baton.
=>
=>
=> Believe it or not, thanks to Lata, RDB was once
=> even in the running for a Sur-Singar award for the
=> virtuosity with which he had got her to render, in
=> the raag Jogiya, a number in "Chandan Ka Palna".
=>
=>
=> Can you spot out that "Chandan Ka Palna" Lata solo
=> on the N55264 78 rpm?
=>
=>
=>
=> ------------------------------------------------------------
=>
=>
=> This article is the last one in the series. Hope it was fun.
=>
=> --
=> bye
=> satish
--
Vandana vven...@pcocd2.intel.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of Intel.
###### Visit the CRY webpage @ http://www.cry.org ######
Vandana Venkatesan
Satish Subramanian (subr...@cs.umn.edu) wrote:
=> Probably, because Lata has always made a point of
=> the fact that she can effectively sing that RDB
=> style of compositions too - it is just that she
=> prefers to leave this genre to Asha!
Such pure, unadulterated hype! Unfortunately Lata seems to, atleast implicitly,
encourage such sycophantic hype-mongers. Notice how guardedly Raju Bharatan puts
across the fact that the idea actually belongs to Lata and not him. One can't
help but admire Lata's political correctness.
=> Now Lata has named, from R D Burman's repertoire,
=>
=>
=> 1. Dilbar dil se pyaare Dilbar (Caravan)
=> 2. Na jaa mere humdum (Pyar Ka Mausam)
=> 3. Tere liye palkon ki jhalar (Harjaae)
I am surprised "Ghar aaja ghir aaye badara saNvariya" doesn't find its place
here!
"Dilbar dil se pyaare" rightfully belongs in the list, not because it is a
complicated or difficult composition to sing, but because Lata gets into the
mood of the song with total abandon thus finally conquering an aspect of singing
where Asha was reigning queen. Probably it was to make this very statement that
Lata picked this song.
Interestingly, during a debate some time back on RMIM where Lata was accused of
not being able to emote, 'dilbar dil se pyaare' was the first song that came to
my mind in Lata's defense.
Wish Lata had let her work speak instead of Raju Bharatan. We all would have
defintely been richer by the choice.
Harish Suvarna
Vandana, Venkatesan wrote:
>
> In article <345A236C...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com>, Anil says...
>
> >RB also forgets to mention that most RBD semi-clssical compositions
> >went to Lata with 'ghar aaja' and 'raina beeti jaaye' being amongst
> >the top.
>
> Hmmm .. if by the above you are implying that only Lata could have handled those
> songs, I don't agree. For sentimental reasons, I cannot imagine "ghar aaja ghir
> aaye" in another voice other than Lata's. But when it comes to "raina beeti
> jaaye", I can think of atleast 2 other singers who could have done more than
> justice.
>
Who are they?
> On a similar note, did you notice that Hridayanath Mangeshkar got Asha to sing
> his more difficult semi-classical compositions?! You are welcome to let your
> imagination run wild and make your inferences from the above fact .. :-) :-)
Remember, just singing difficult taans is no great. You need to add the
rasa.
Asha is yet to come near that aspect. She is a great singer no doubt,
but not to
the extent picturised by her fans in RMIM or by herself in the
interviews
given frequently these days.
-harish
Sanjeev Kumar
Harish Suvarna wrote:
>
> Remember, just singing difficult taans is no great. You need to add
> the rasa. Asha is yet to come near that aspect. She is a great singer
> no doubt, but not to the extent picturised by her fans in RMIM or by
> herself in the interviews given frequently these days.
Quite contrary to this, I feel Asha adds more than the fair share of
rasa to any song. Probably you may say that as a Asha'a drawback,
rather than saying that her songs are devoid of any rasa.
It is difficult to say who is best in singing classical songs among
Lata and Asha. Also, I don't think Asha picturises herself better than
Lata in any interview that I've read in RMIM. She always claims that
Lata is the best and that she is fortunate to be compared to Lata.
SK
Vandana Venkatesan
Harish Suvarna (hsuv...@adobe.com) wrote:
=> Vandana, Venkatesan wrote:
=> >
=> > In article <345A236C...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com>, Anil says...
=> >
=> > >RB also forgets to mention that most RBD semi-clssical compositions
=> > >went to Lata with 'ghar aaja' and 'raina beeti jaaye' being amongst
=> > >the top.
=> >
=> > But when it comes to "raina beeti jaaye", I can think of atleast
=> > 2 other singers who could have done more than justice.
=>
=> Who are they?
Vani Jayaram and Asha Bhonsle.
=>
=> -harish
ravi_krishna
In article <63ogrr$s...@news.or.intel.com>, vven...@ptdcs2.intel.com says...
>
>Vani Jayaram and Asha Bhonsle.
>
AB , may be yes , but VJ - emphatic NO. I have heard her in tamil songs and
she does not give any such indication.
-- RaviK.
Vandana Vidwans
Listen to "sankarabharanam" songs of Vani.
I can think of Runa laila also in that list.
Vandana
Arunabha
Hi Anil et al,
Simply could not resist such a tempting bait >>>>
>> => Vandana, Venkatesan wrote:
>> => >
>> => > In article <345A236C...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com>, Anil says...
>> => >
>> => > >RB also forgets to mention that most RBD semi-clssical compositions
>> => > >went to Lata with 'ghar aaja' and 'raina beeti jaaye' being amongst
>> => > >the top.
>> => >
>> => > But when it comes to "raina beeti jaaye", I can think of atleast
>> => > 2 other singers who could have done more than justice.
>> =>
>> => Who are they?
>>
>> Vani Jayaram and Asha Bhonsle.
>>
>
>YEAH! RIGHT! - not even in their dreams could they touch Lata's
>voice. Ditto for the khamaj composition 'bada natkhat hai re'.
Sorry Ravi K, you were wrong after all :( Anil's post is justa nother example to
show that RDB and KK are not the ONLY TWO holy cows of RMIM - Lata bai , I think
is the Holier Than Thou Cow, if I may. You can get away by saying KK was outdoen
in certain songs, once ina while, but it appears that every song Lata sang was
so "tailor-cast " for her (prob. it was ordained divinely) that even imagining
another voice singing it would be tantamount to blasphemy.
>And don't go saying LMs voice sounded tired. Her voice is just
YEAH RIGHT ! Lata's voice WAS tired . The only place I concur with you is that
she was not the magic she was in the 60's . In fact the way she screeches Maiyya
re ho.... sets my nerves on edge, in this song. This song sounds
sooooooooooooooooo boring IMHO because of Lata . One can appreciate the tune,
nevertheless, if one momentarily forgets that Lata is singing. Listen to "Mujhko
bhi Radha Bana le Nandalaal " from "Suraanjali" album of Asha's - that's a far
superior song, both composition and rendition wise.
And after this if people say Asha's voice is incapable of imparting "ras", ,
that she was merely someone with a cpacity for hiting off taans, well, then I
have nothing more to say.
And , mind you, not even sung by Asha during her peak period.
>fine here and her singing supreme. She wasn't exactly VOG (Voice
>Of God) then, but she was pretty damn good.
>
>Asha B. & Vani J. were both born with average voices. The former
>compensated by raising her singing abilitities (thanks to Lata's
>rasing the standards of singing in Hindi films) while the other
>could have done so, had she continued where she left off with
>Ravi Shankar.
I dunno about Vani J , but I certainly don't agree that Asha(and of course Lata)
were born with an average voice. If that is so, why isn't there a single
playback singer in today's industry whom we talk about on RMIM
with even a hundredth of the fervour as we do about the Mangeshkars ?
There are factors such as MD's etc that have to be taken into account, I agree,
but it is also true that the Mangeshkars were capable of raising simple melodies
to dizzying heights simply because of their voice and method of pulling the
whole song of. I do no think that all this can be attributed, in the case of
Asha, to diligence and hard work only. I'm sure that aspiring singers today too
try hard.
>I have no doubt 'raina beeti jaaye' would not have been the
>masterpiece it is in any other voice.
MASTERPIECE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now come and flame me ..... but I strongly opine that Raina beeti jaaye , Na Koi
Umang Hai and their like are some of the most colossally over-hyped songs of
Lata to boot. Far more overhyped than Chingari koi bhadke (a good contender , no
doubt) could ever hope to be. It's due to these nuisances that Lata's albums do
not contain her TRUE Masterpieces. Though I am hoping that will change.
And RDB himself acknowledged
>that in one of his interviews (where he compared LM to Don Bradman).
>RDB was a smart man - when he was creating music for
>posterity to remember him, he chose LM. For his 'chaalu' stuff, he
>chose others:-)
>
I wonder whom he had in mind when he composed Khaali Haath Shaam Aayi Hai ,
Chhoti si Kahaani and other "Chaalu/ Bazaaru/ Tawdry/ ..." pretenders to good
music .
I think, :), that RDB prob. didn't realize while composing the songs of Ijaazat,
that this is really good music. If he had, I'm sure he would have done his usual
thing of giving these all to Latabai to ruin at her will, and addedsome nautanki
or cabaret number so that "Chalo, Asha ko bhi le lete hain ek gaane ke liye". Or
maybe Lata had a fight going on at that time . Anyway, it is unusual to find
such a movie track with not a single lata song. Ghar, libaas are examples of
laying waste good tunes .
Regards,
Arunabha
ravi_krishna
Tell me why do all Asha fans resort to Lata bashing at the drop of a hat.
I think it is due to the fact that Asha fans have to prove that A > L whereas
L fans need not have to prove anything. You don't prove the obvious , do you ?
I hardly care for L bashing by A fans. For me both were ( past tense
intentional) excellent. It is just that I like L songs more than A. In fact
I feel that L was plainly lucky to get some of the immortal tunes in 50s and
60s. In my list of all time great songs no singer (male or female) comes
anywhere close to L. Lata just walked away with the best tunes and of course
being a great singer she WAS she did full justice to it , claims by A fans
notwithstading.
-- RaviK.
Arunabha
>Yes, 'ijazzat' is great and AB is phenomenal. Despite that, is it better
>than 'ghar aaja ghir aayi' - in any respect? Or even 'jiya na laage..'?
>
Anil,
Are you referring to "Na jiyaa laage naa" or "Jiyaa na laage mora , naa ja re"
. IMHO there is a world of a difference between the two.
Arunabha
hsuv...@adobe.com
In article <345F82...@lucent.com>,
I have seen many times Asha calling herself an underdog or having been
sidelined by Lata. This statement can not be issued either by Asha
or Her fans.
She just was not as good as Lata at least till the early 70s. Well Lata
lost her voice quality in late 70s,80s and totally now. The voice became
fat. That is all fine. The Lata fan never mentions naa koi umang hai
types for her greatness.
So till the early 70s, both Asha and Lata were in prime time.
But Asha got few songs compared to Lata.
See If I say that 'Lata's songs really move, her's is the sweetest
voice' then that becomes a subjective comment. Vandana can say
'to me Asha is the sweetest' and someone else can say runa laila
is the seetest. But If I pick on all the MDs of golden age, and their
opinion, then that is not at all subjective but highly objective. That
is what the facts speak and the various stories we heard. Entire
industry can not line for a singer unless there is some greatness.
No one can oppose or speak against this fact.
Lata Mangeshkar could sing in a fashion as did no one else
until today. If Asha or Her fans say that Asha is underdog or was
sidelined for so many years then it tantamounts challenging Lata's
merit/quality. Lata indeed is the holiest cow and She earned it.
It is true that Asha is also a great singer. But she will never be
remembered as the greatest hindi film song singer. Always Acknowledge
the accomplisher.
-harish
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Abhay Avachat
In article <3460F38F...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com>, Anil says...
<A subjective categorization of singers deleted>
Since you claim that the following is a "fact" and not a subjective
opinion, here are some questions.
>Come on now! How can you not agree that with Lata's entry, the "art"
>of film singing was raised to a level where it still is. One can
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am not sure what you mean by "where it still is". Is the "art" of
film singing at the same level today ?
>argue that this distinction belongs to KLSaigal and I will not dispute
>that. But, amongst the female singers, she is the one. Lata's song
I would want to agree with you here. Still, I would like to see your
argument against giving the credit to Noorjehan amongst female singers.
I wouldn't have asked these questions if you had not written this ...
>This is not a subjective conclusion that I pulled out of my hat:-)
>It is a fact and I would like you or anyone else to disprove it by
>giving specific examples of songs and the effect it had.
Now for a touchy topic ...
>When I said 'for posterity;, I meant his "QUALITY" songs, not the
>'piya too ab to aaja" or "duniya mein logon ko" kind of "POPULAR"
>songs. When I say quality, I mean his work that can hold it's own
>against the best of compositions of the 'golden era'. Your yardstick
>might be different, but mine is the music of the 60s and the 70s.
Now I ask this to all in utmost sincerety. What's so bad about "piya tu",
or for that matter "duniya me logon ko" ? These songs, IMHO, are of a
totally different genre than the "golden era" songs. If someone says,
s/he doesn't like this genre of songs at all, then that's fine.
But in this cabret genre (let's take this as loosely defined, OK ?), I
would make 2 broad categories. One is "raat akeli hai" kind of slower but
still quite sensuous songs. Another is crazy, fast paced or westernized
songs. In the former category, I would rate OPN's "ye hai reshami
zulfoN ka andhera" as best (IMHO etc) in the latter "piya tu" is, again
IMHO, the best.
IMHO, RDB has shown immense creativity in "piya tu" and "duniya me".
If one doesn't like this genre at all, like someone not liking qawwali or
someone not liking sad ghazals or whatever, then it's a different story.
But, I contend that RDB was brilliant in these 2 songs. This is not to
say that I like cabret songs better than GHazals or semiclassical songs !!!
- Abhay.
Why do I end up defending RDB when I am not any aRDent fan ...
Pankaj Kakkar
Ah - while everybody harps on his/her favourite obsession, why should I
be left behind?
Anil Hingorani wrote:
> OK. So here's my list:
> Better:
> Lata, KLSaigal, Geeta, Noorjehan, Mukesh, Hemant (the last
> two mentioned had a great voice but unfortunately did not have great
> singing abilities and hence would overall rank below many singers in
> the next category)
> Average to Satisfactory:
> Rafi, KK, Asha, Suman, Suresh Wadkar, Yesudas, Vani, Runa,
> Manna D., Talat, Jagjit Singh, Sulakshna Pandit, Shamshad,
> Meena Kapoor, Zohrabai, Ameerbai.... you get the picture
> Inferior:
> Mahendra Kapoor, Kumar Shanu, Udit N., Alka Y., Kavita K....
>
Why am I not surprised to find most singers from the 90s in the
'inferior' list? Boy oh boy, standards must be really bad now, or what?
I will not even argue with this, but Anil, this list shows off a
tremendous bias on your part. Give me a reason to respect your musical
opinion.
> When I said 'for posterity;, I meant his "QUALITY" songs, not the
> 'piya too ab to aaja" or "duniya mein logon ko" kind of "POPULAR"
> songs. When I say quality, I mean his work that can hold it's own
> against the best of compositions of the 'golden era'. Your yardstick
> might be different, but mine is the music of the 60s and the 70s.
I do not want to debate your definition of quality. I don't agree, but
it is clearly your own opinion here rather than an absolute judgement
:). But you know, as far as posterity goes, the song that most people
will associate with RDB is not 'rainaa beeti jaaye' or even 'chingarii
...', but 'piyaa too ab to aajaa' and 'dum maro dum'.
> Anil (who is oiling his swords. It's been a while since the last WAR)
I'm still junior enough to not dare to engage in a WAR :), but I'm
practicing a few skirmishes :). Game?
--
Pankaj Kakkar http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~pankaj
--------------------------------------------------------
Office: Home:
PhD Student 3620 Baring St
CIS Dept., Apt No 2R
School of Engineering and Applied Sciences Philadelphia
University of Pennsylvania, PA 19104 PA 19104
USA. USA
(215) 898 8116 (215) 386 5156
Ever tried washing your car to force rain to fall?
Doesn't happen. Murphy's law is recursive.
anand_tiwari
In article , Sanjeev says...
>
>Arunabha wrote:
Whoever thinks RDB sucked in 80s should
>listen to this album.
Arunabha,
Strange, i have to tell you this. But it has already been proved that raddi
KK and Mahachor RDB sucked all the time, not only in the '80s. So
how come you think that people still have the wrong notion you mention
above.
regards
Anand
>
>Sanjeev
hingora...@jpmorgan.com
In article <63r8lt$e...@drn.zippo.com>,
ava...@hotmail.com (Abhay Avachat) wrote:
>
> I am not sure what you mean by "where it still is". Is the "art" of
> film singing at the same level today ?
>
The standard was set and that still remains. It is a different thing that
no one even comes close to it. I was trying to say that the standard has
not been raised higher since the 60s.
> I would want to agree with you here. Still, I would like to see your
> argument against giving the credit to Noorjehan amongst female singers.
>
I could do that, but I think LM was a more accomplised singer - her
singing abilities were better then Noorjehan's. But if someone wants to
argue against that, I will not protest too much:-)
> Now for a touchy topic ...
>
> Now I ask this to all in utmost sincerety. What's so bad about "piya tu",
> or for that matter "duniya me logon ko" ? These songs, IMHO, are of a
> totally different genre than the "golden era" songs. If someone says,
> s/he doesn't like this genre of songs at all, then that's fine.
>
Your argument is not right here since I DID NOT say that I do not like
these songs. I enjoy them, but do not put them in the same category as
the melodious music from the 50s and 60s. Of course, I appreciate RDBs
creativity as far as orchestration is concerned and Asha's singing (heavy
breathing?) such songs. All I'm saying is these songs do not make Asha
the great singer that I think she was - at least in my opinion. It surely
makes her a versatile singer. If you read my response to Ashok's 'jeevan
jyot jale' thread, you would know which Asha I like and am a fan of.
Cheers,
Anil
anand_tiwari
In article , Ravi says...
>
>In article <63svr6$m...@drn.zippo.com>, Anand says...
>never written by Arunabha but by Sanjeev Kumar. Please think twice before
>hitting the reply key.
>
>-- RaviK.
Agreed Ravi. Thanks for the help!!
regards
Anand
ravi_krishna
In article <3461F5...@lucent.com>, Sanjeev says...
> Whoever thinks RDB sucked in 80s should
>listen to this album.
Mr Sanjeev Kumar , I too like DPH album. I was talking about RDBs scores in
80s films and not non-filmi album. Even otherwise one bright sunday does not
make a great summer.
-- RaviK.
ravi_krishna
In article <63t3gr$e...@drn.zippo.com>, anand....@prairiecomm.com says...
>Arunabha,
>
>Sorry for attributing Sanjeev's comment to you. See i went to get my eyes
>checked during the lunch break following Ravi's kind advice and lo
>behold, i can see better. I am actually responding to your post. Happy to
>see that you have understood the truth about raddi KK and Mahachor
>RDB. Great are the ways of God!!!!
No. I don't see any improvement in your quality of posting. I can safely
presume that your eye doctor himself/herself is a fan of raddi KK and Mahachor
RDB. :-)
-- RaviK.
Anand Tiwari
In article , "Arunabha" says...
>
>Hi Anand :), (my smileys are visible),
>
>
>In article <63svr6$m...@drn.zippo.com>, Anand says...
>>
>>In article , Sanjeev says...
>>>
>>>Arunabha wrote:
>>>listen to this album.
>>
>>
>>Strange, i have to tell you this. But it has already been proved that raddi
>>KK and Mahachor RDB sucked all the time, not only in the '80s. So
>>how come you think that people still have the wrong notion you mention
>>above.
>>
>> Anand
>>
>Well, actually the comment was Sanjeev's and not mine, but I agree with him and
>said something similar in a previous post. Anyway we both are in dire need of
>the FREE lessons :) How about attending the same lecture hour , eh ?
>
>In fact amidst the current wave of misinterpreting sarcastic posts, I was almost
>tempted to wilfully misinterpret and launch an attack, just for fun. But I
>didn't dare . As that will further get misinterpreted , and we very soon will
>forget who we are or why or what we posted in the first place.
>
>Sigh ! Gone are the days when invisible smileys were understood, now,even lines
>like your "Some smileys maybe invisible" do not suffice :)
>
>Jaane kahaan gaye woh smileys...
>
>
>Regards,
>Arunabha.
Arunabha,
Sorry for attributing Sanjeev's comment to you. See i went to get my eyes
checked during the lunch break following Ravi's kind advice and lo
behold, i can see better. I am actually responding to your post. Happy to
see that you have understood the truth about raddi KK and Mahachor
RDB. Great are the ways of God!!!!
regards
Anand
>
>
>
>P.S. My Suraanjali album mentions this album "Unforgettable" released by Asha
>bhosle and Jaidev about 20 years back. Does any one know about it ?
anand_tiwari
In article , Ravi says...
>
>>
>>Sorry for attributing Sanjeev's comment to you. See i went to get my eyes
>>checked during the lunch break following Ravi's kind advice and lo
>>behold, i can see better. I am actually responding to your post. Happy to
>>see that you have understood the truth about raddi KK and Mahachor
>>RDB. Great are the ways of God!!!!
>
>RDB. :-)
>
>-- RaviK
Ravi,
please enlighten me once more about how eyes are related to the "quality of
posting." Thanks in advance.
regards
Anand
U.V. Ravindra
Vandana Vidwans wrote:
>
> Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
> > AB , may be yes , but VJ - emphatic NO. I have heard her in tamil
> > songs and she does not give any such indication.
> >
> > -- RaviK.
>
> Listen to "sankarabharanam" songs of Vani.
Quite so. She has a melodious voice, undoubtedly. But she seems
to lack that impalpable sweetness that existed in Lata's voice (and
which still exists, in some measure, in Asha's).
> I can think of Runa laila also in that list.
Come, now! Runa Laila and "raina beeti jaaye"?! Somehow it doesn't
"feel" quite right :))
--
Ravindra.
> Vandana
U.V. Ravindra
Anil Hingorani wrote:
>
> > Vani Jayaram and Asha Bhonsle.
> >
>
> YEAH! RIGHT! - not even in their dreams could they touch Lata's
> voice.
Not Vani J., perhaps, but Asha certainly could. Not only touch,
but surpass :)) [matlab, sar ke oopar se pass kar jaana ;-))]
> Ditto for the khamaj composition 'bada natkhat hai re'.
> And don't go saying LMs voice sounded tired. Her voice is just
> fine here and her singing supreme. She wasn't exactly VOG (Voice
> Of God) then, but she was pretty damn good.
Yeah, she was pretty darn good! But that's not the point here.
Nobody ever said LM *DIDN'T* do justice to the song. So what
are you defending her here for? Or is this one of those "shout
loud to quell the voices of uncertainty yelling inside your head"
kind-of reactions, Anil? :-))
> Asha B. & Vani J. were both born with average voices. The former
> compensated by raising her singing abilitities (thanks to Lata's
> rasing the standards of singing in Hindi films) while the other
> could have done so, had she continued where she left off with
> Ravi Shankar.
Now, this is too much! What yardstick does Asha's voice notch up
on as merely "average"? Even if you use Lata's voice as being
10 on a scale of 0-10 (which would be true only as far as film
music is concerned), you couldn't call Asha average. Unless,
that is, your "average" was defined as "9.999999999999 to 10.00000000001
on a scale of 0-10) :))
> I have no doubt 'raina beeti jaaye' would not have been the
> masterpiece it is in any other voice. And RDB himself acknowledged
> that in one of his interviews (where he compared LM to Don Bradman).
> RDB was a smart man - when he was creating music for
> posterity to remember him, he chose LM. "For his 'chaalu' stuff, he
> chose others:-)
I have another theory for why this particular song was given to
LM. Was there ANY MD who chose Asha to playback for Sharmila Tagore
during this period? I don't think so. Lata was Sharmila's backstage
voice, and RDB simply stuck to the "norm".
--
Ravindra.
kaisi chali hai ab ke hawa, tere shahr mein ...
> Cheers,
>
> Anil
> --
> ANIL P. HINGORANI
> e-mail: hingora...@jpmorgan.com
Anil Hingorani
Hi Ketan,
Ketan wrote:
>
> 1) Kis Karan Kamini Sharmaaye, koi jaane to batlaaye--Lata/Usha.
>
> Average lyrics, but very nicely tuned. There is something in it, the "surprise"
> element which one does not expect, but knows it when one hears it. Can't
> describe it, but for me, I expected the melody to go one way and at a certain
> point it went the other, making it sound very pleasing. Song starts with
> Mumtaz(Lata) and her friend(Usha) teasing MeenaK. Halfway thru, Lata takes over
> for Meena K and Usha for Mumtaz, and again towards the end we go back to Lata
> for Mumtaz and Usha for her friend. It's not as dizzy watching it as it is
> writing it though. :)
>
This is really interesting and maybe can become an enlightening thread.
I noticed this in Mere Mehboob (in one of the LM/AB duets). The singers
are switched arbitrarily between Sadhana and Ameeta. Also, in one movie
with Rekha and Moshumi praying on the bank of the Ganges (it's a 80s
movie) on 'karva chaut' and the singers are switched again randomly.
Is this because the movie director was slack? I don't know about others,
but this is very disconcerting to me and spoils even a good song for me.
> 7) Sharabi, Sharabi, mera naam ho gaya-- Lata
>
I'm surprised you didn't know about this song. It was the most popular
song from this movie when it opened. I don't really care for it and
I think RDB should have got Asha to do it. But then it was Meena K.
performing on the screen and Asha's version would have been
scandalous for her image:-):-), even though it would have improved
the song.
>
> 8) Baat karte ho par baat karna nahin aata, pyaar karte ho par pyaar karna nahin
> aata -- Asha/Manna D
>
This is available on the CD (#CDF-120354). The songs of 'gomti ke
kinare' are also included on the same CD and they are quite average.
Balaji A.S. Murthy
In article <34622B...@informix.com>, "U.V. says...
Well, there is one MD who did. But he wasn't known to go with the norm, i.e. if
norm == use of Lata
wasnn't 'saawan kii ghaTaa' in this period?
- Balaji
>
>--
>Ravindra.
> kaisi chali hai ab ke hawa, tere shahr mein ...
>
Nitin Sharma
Anil Hingorani (ahin...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com) wrote:
:
: songs. When I say quality, I mean his work that can hold it's own
: against the best of compositions of the 'golden era'. Your yardstick
: might be different, but mine is the music of the 60s and the 70s.
:
I generally agree with all you wrote, but arent you missing by
the golden era by a decade (if not two)? And 70's wasnt much golden,
was it? :)
-nitin
ps: my mails to you bounce for some reason.
neha_desai
In article <63teeh$m...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu says...
>>> RDB was a smart man - when he was creating music for
>>> posterity to remember him, he chose LM. "For his 'chaalu' stuff, he
>>> chose others:-)
>>
>>I have another theory for why this particular song was given to
>>LM. Was there ANY MD who chose Asha to playback for Sharmila Tagore
>>during this period? I don't think so. Lata was Sharmila's backstage
>>voice, and RDB simply stuck to the "norm".
>
>Well, there is one MD who did. But he wasn't known to go with the norm, i.e. if
> norm == use of Lata
>wasnn't 'saawan kii ghaTaa' in this period?
>- Balaji
>
And Song: mere ishq mein laakhon jhatke
Film:-Mausam
Star:-Sanjeev Kumar, Sharmila
Sing:-Asha
MD:-Madan Mohan
Lyr:-Gulzar
But then I guess this song had to be Asha's. It is just her kind of a song
and only she could have done justice to her.
Surprised this song is by Gulzar.
--
Neha
------------------------------------------------
bolo dekha hai kabhi tumne mujhe udate huey...
------------------------------------------------
ravi_krishna
In article <63tfcs$q...@drn.zippo.com>, Anand says...
>I think the movie you are talking about is "Daasi" featuring Sanjeev
>Kumar along with Rekha and Moushmi. It was directed by Raj Khosla.
>I may be wrong though.
>
As always you are wrong. :-)
The movie is "maang bharo sajna" a 1980 movie. The song is "deepak mere suhaag
ka jalta rahe ...", a complete raddi LP song.
-- RaviK.
anand_tiwari
In article , Ravi says...
>
No problem, as long as you are there to correct it. How sweet of you
as always.
regards
Anand
>
>-- RaviK.
ravi_krishna
In article <63thcb$5...@drn.zippo.com>, Anand says...
>No problem, as long as you are there to correct it. How sweet of you
>as always.
You are welcome Anand.
Unfortunately my patience is running out to correct you about a certain
overrated singer and a chor MD. You have taken much more than 18 attempts. :-)
-- RaviK.
Anil Hingorani
Arunabha wrote:
>
<snip>
> nevertheless, if one momentarily forgets that Lata is singing. Listen to "Mujhko
> bhi Radha Bana le Nandalaal " from "Suraanjali" album of Asha's - that's a far
> superior song, both composition and rendition wise.
Yes! That song is wonderful indeed. But even here, Asha's voice has an
edge to it that she used for her 'sensual' numbers. I wish she had
sung it straight - it would have been memorable. The composition is
superb and no surprise it is by Jaidev.
> And , mind you, not even sung by Asha during her peak period.
>
Yes, it was! It was only released later.
> I dunno about Vani J , but I certainly don't agree that Asha(and of course Lata)
If you hear Vani's Meera, you would not make such a statement. Ravi
Shankar chose her over Asha to sing those songs, when the Great Lady
refused. And she did full justice to those songs. I don't believe even
Lata could have sung those as well, at that point in time.
> I wonder whom he had in mind when he composed Khaali Haath Shaam Aayi Hai ,
> Chhoti si Kahaani and other "Chaalu/ Bazaaru/ Tawdry/ ..." pretenders to good
> music .
>
I don't care much for 'chhotisi kahani..', but 'khali haath..' is very
special and I cannot believe how well Asha has sung that song. Once
again, I'll reiterate - she was phenomenal. This song is right up there
with 'yeh kya jagah hai..' for me. But, all Asha fans always point to
'ijazat' to prove RDB had "better" songs with Asha than with LM. I am
sure they can think of other RDB/Asha songs than the two songs in this
film they keep bringing up again and again and again...
Cheers,
Renu Thamma
Anil Hingorani (ahin...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com) wrote:
> When I said 'for posterity;, I meant his "QUALITY" songs, not the
> 'piya too ab to aaja" or "duniya mein logon ko" kind of "POPULAR"
> songs. When I say quality, I mean his work that can hold it's own
> against the best of compositions of the 'golden era'. Your yardstick
> might be different, but mine is the music of the 60s and the 70s.
Do you get to define the word 'posterity' also, since this is a
subjective post? I think not. Posterity or 'the condition of being
remembered after the passage of time', is not always the same as
quality. And posterity is also NOT defined by 'songs that can hold
their own against the golden era'. That would be going backward in
time, not forward, Anil. :)
Ask any of the teenagers of today who listen to Indian film music ---
'piya tu ab to aaja', even before its remix versions came out, is
always remembered. My parents remember it, and I do and so will our
next generation. That is a song for 'posterity'.
Now my bigger problem. Exactly what is wrong with the 'piya tu ab to
aaja' kind of songs? Time and again Lata fans go around bandying the
word 'bazaaru' (inspired by Naushad) whenever they think of Asha.
While I agree that we do not have as many discussions on Asha's
semi-classical songs, why is that necessarily the greater talent? I do
believe that 'aao na gale lagaao na' (another 'pedestrian' song by
Anil's standards) and the likes of it are as difficult to sing if not
tougher. Yes, they require a different set of skills than to sing
semi-classical songs, but they are tough nevertheless.
If one chooses to remember Asha by her semi-classical numbers, that is
one's choice. But the talent required to sing a 'piya tu' or for that
matter to compose one is formidable too. And to appreciate the former
one doesn't have to necessarily trivialize the latter.
Like I've said in the past here --- If pretending to be a Lata-wannabe is
the only way Asha can endear herself to Lata fans, then it won't happen.
In fact, if trying to do a Lata is the only way an artist can prove her
merit to Lata-philes, then that is truly their shortsightedness.
Renu.
Renu Thamma
Nitin Sharma
Abhay Avachat (ava...@hotmail.com) wrote:
:
: Now I ask this to all in utmost sincerety. What's so bad about "piya tu",
: or for that matter "duniya me logon ko" ? These songs, IMHO, are of a
: totally different genre than the "golden era" songs. If someone says,
: s/he doesn't like this genre of songs at all, then that's fine.
Its almost like someone holding up a Gulshan Nanda novel and asking
"Tell me how is it inferior to Premchand's Gaban or Nirmala".
What could you say?
Or here, try this example - you might like it better. Remember that
'sher' :
pyar ka phool, prem ki mala,
bure injun vaale tera oil kala! ?
Tell me, and I'm asking this very sincerely (:)), whats so bad about
this sher. To me, this shayar has shown immense creativity in this
tuk-bandi. But mind you, if you dont like this genre of shairi, then
its a different story. This is not to say I like such shers more than
Sahir or Faiz.
What would you say to *that*? :)
: IMHO, RDB has shown immense creativity in "piya tu" and "duniya me".
: If one doesn't like this genre at all, like someone not liking qawwali or
: someone not liking sad ghazals or whatever, then it's a different story.
: But, I contend that RDB was brilliant in these 2 songs. This is not to
: say that I like cabret songs better than GHazals or semiclassical songs !!!
-nitin
Pradeep Dubey
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
> In article <3460CB8A...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com>, Anil says...
>
> >YEAH! RIGHT! - not even in their dreams could they touch Lata's
> >voice.
>
>
> >Ditto for the khamaj composition 'bada natkhat hai re'.
> >And don't go saying LMs voice sounded tired. Her voice is just
> >fine here and her singing supreme. She wasn't exactly VOG (Voice
> >Of God) then, but she was pretty damn good.
>
> in the interludes. In contrast the KK songs of Amar Prem were $%^#&*.
I thought the best part of the interlude in this song was:
"aaiye aaiye Anand babu, aap aur is mandir mein, hsssshhhhh
gao beti, gao ..."
>
> >I have no doubt 'raina beeti jaaye' would not have been the
> >masterpiece it is in any other voice. And RDB himself acknowledged
> >that in one of his interviews (where he compared LM to Don Bradman).
> He said AshaB = Garry Sobers.
>
> >RDB was a smart man - when he was creating music for
> >posterity to remember him, he chose LM. For his 'chaalu' stuff, he
> >chose others:-)
>
> Yeah like the overrated KK for all his halke-phulke-light songs.
Ravi, ever tried making a 'halkaa phulkaa'? Try, if you
haven't, you will find that to be lot harder than 'moti roti' :-)
Pradeep
>
> -- RaviK.
Ketan
In article <63t1ls$7...@drn.zippo.com>, Ketan says...
>1) Kis Karan Kamini Sharmaaye, koi jaane to batlaaye--Lata/Usha.
>2) Zulfon ko aap yun na savara karo-- Rafi/Asha
>3) Tumhe dekha hai maine gulistan main, ki jannat dhoond li is jahan main--Rafi.
>4) Bahe pavan man sugandh--Manna D/Rafi.
>5) Mastana hoy, parvana hoy, usme mujhe shikwe hazaar-- Manna/Asha
>6) O Ganga Maiyaa --- Lata
>
>Nothing more to add then what has already been said. Great song.
>
>7) Sharabi, Sharabi, mera naam ho gaya-- Lata
>
>8) Baat karte ho par baat karna nahin aata, pyaar karte ho par pyaar karna nahin
>aata -- Asha/Manna D
Sorry I missed one song. This is not listed in the Geet Kosh, but is there in
Vishwas Nerurkar's book 'Pancham'.
The song is "Dir Dir Na Dir Dir Tum Dir Dir Na"-- Rafi. It's not there in the
movie and I don't think is present even in the CD, but was present in the
earlier cuts of the movie.
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
Ketan
In article <34622B...@informix.com>, "U.V. says...
>I have another theory for why this particular song was given to
>LM. Was there ANY MD who chose Asha to playback for Sharmila Tagore
>during this period? I don't think so. Lata was Sharmila's backstage
>voice, and RDB simply stuck to the "norm".
I take it you are asking about MD's who would normally have used Lata and not
MD's like OPN.
Here are 2 movies that use only Asha for Sharmila. There might be more, but I
did not have the time to look into it in detail. (Source is the Hindi film Geet
Kosh by H.S Hamraaz)
Movie : My Love
Year : 1970
Starring : Shashi Kapoor and Sharmila
MD : Daan Singh
Songs sung by female singers :
1)Sunte hai sitare raat bhar dil ka yeh afsana (happy/sad versions) -- Asha
2) Bheegi bheegi raat main ho gayi unse mulaqaat -- Asha
3) Guzar jaaye jo haseen zamane, khayal me phir ubhar rahe hai -- Asha
Movie : Daastan
year : 1972
Starring : Dilip Kumar and Sharmila
MD : LP
Songs sung by female singers (including duets) :
1) Maria maria maria maria, my sweetheart, ay dil deewane gaata ja-- Mahendra
Kapoor and Asha.
2) Ek to yeh bairi sawan, dujhe mera chanchal man -- Asha
3) Koi aaya lachat uthi kaya -- Asha
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
Renu Thamma
(There might be multiple copies of this post, thanks to some newsserver
problems we've been having. Apologies.)
Arun Verma
In article <63vf3q$q...@drn.zippo.com>, <Ketan> wrote:
>In article <34622B...@informix.com>, "U.V. says...
>
>>I have another theory for why this particular song was given to
>>LM. Was there ANY MD who chose Asha to playback for Sharmila Tagore
>>during this period? I don't think so. Lata was Sharmila's backstage
>>voice, and RDB simply stuck to the "norm".
>
>I take it you are asking about MD's who would normally have used Lata and not
>MD's like OPN.
>
>Here are 2 movies that use only Asha for Sharmila. There might be more, but I
<snip>
How about movies like Waqt, Anand Ashram(Didn't Sharmila star here?), An evening in Paris etc?
Arun
Hema
Renu Thamma wrote:
> Now my bigger problem. Exactly what is wrong with the 'piya tu ab to
> aaja' kind of songs? Time and again Lata fans go around bandying the
> word 'bazaaru' (inspired by Naushad) whenever they think of Asha.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am surprised to know that! What's wrong with such great MDs? And here I was
accusing an RMIMer for viewing music with a certain "market-value"!!
So I am kind of inclined to think what Naushad thought of "jurm-e-ulfat pe hamen log",
"unko yeh shikaayat hai", "raat bhi hai kuchh bheegi bheegi", and "chalte chalte". I
would hate to hear someone call these great compositions of great MDs as bazaru. Then
why is a song like "nadi naare na jao shyam" or "paan khaye saiyaan" a bazaru song?
Or is he saying that "jaaiye aap kahan jayenge" or "lekar ham diiwana dil" are bazaru
songs? I mean did Naushad expect a heroine of 70s wearing bell-bottoms, large
sunglasses, fashionable wigs and pastel lipstick shades to sing "main ban ki chdiya
ban ke ban ban doloon re" with a hero wearing bellbottoms, flapped collored shirts and
same fashionable sunglasses, in a discotheque?!!! What exactly was bazaru, I am
trying to guage here. Can someone help? This is really painful...it really hurts.
> tougher. Yes, they require a different set of skills than to sing
> semi-classical songs, but they are tough nevertheless.
Renu, I would like to support your statement here, by reminding of Pradeep's quote
here.:)) The same "halka-phulka" analogy. I am pretty darned sure after reading all
these interviews of and about Asha that she is a great cook. So I am sure that she is
excellent at making soft and fluffy "halka-phulkas" as well as making "dam aaloo" with
all the dam needed.:))
Hema.
aaha rimjhim ke ye pyaare pyaare giit liye......
Now if someone is curious to know why I am not sticking to my practice of signing off
with a song of an artiste that I am talking about, let me make this confession. And I
know its going to hurt Lata fans and surprise Asha fans, but its true. This morning
while I was looking at the falling rain out the window, listening to this Lata-Talat
duet, I wished it was sung by Asha instead of Lata. It would have sounded so much
true_to_life sort of. This is just MHO. I know people might be thinking that I have
rotten musical tastes, they are welcome to think so....its just that condemnations or
attempts to change my oh_so_dear_to_me opinion will prove futile.:)
Pradeep Dubey
Anil Hingorani wrote:
>
> Neeraj,
>
> > I sincerely hope that you are passing this off only as what it
> > actually is --- a biased opinion. In either case, what quality defines
> > 'an average voice' for you? How many singers (leave alone general
> > people) do you think / know have voices
> >
> > 1. better
> > 2. inferior
> >
>
> I will answer you as long as we agree on the following:
> It's my post, so it IS my opinion (baised or otherwise)
> We are talking about natural voice not singing abilities
> We are talking about the singer's voice at their peak
> OK. So here's my list:
> Better:
> Lata, KLSaigal, Geeta, Noorjehan, Mukesh, Hemant (the last
> two mentioned had a great voice but unfortunately did not have great
> singing abilities and hence would overall rank below many singers in
> the next category)
> Average to Satisfactory:
> Rafi, KK, Asha, Suman, Suresh Wadkar, Yesudas, Vani, Runa,
> Manna D., Talat, Jagjit Singh, Sulakshna Pandit, Shamshad,
> Meena Kapoor, Zohrabai, Ameerbai.... you get the picture
> Inferior:
> Mahendra Kapoor, Kumar Shanu, Udit N., Alka Y., Kavita K....
Anil,
Assuming you are serious, in all seriousness, I must add
I am very surprised at this list. I must listen to Geeta, Mukesh,
and Hemant again to understand why you believe they belong in the
same league as Lata/Saigal, whereas, Rafi, KK, are in the same
league as Zohrabai and sister Ameerbai (were they not sisters?).
Also, I have found Kavita K's voice to be quite good.
On a side note, I have said it before and would like to say it
again in the context of people pointing out various golden decades,
that this whole 'golden decade' stuff is a big MYTH in an absolute
sense. At a personal level, it's of course very easy to understand.
There is still plenty of good music. Fewer are on my favorite
list only because my finite memory has a growing number of sticky
pages, which refuse to be replaced. Thus unfortunately there are
fewer and fewer left to make room for new entries.
Pradeep
P.S. With the price of gold falling so rapidly, one wonders what
if any is still golden with gold, perhaps the phrase should be
renamed 'dollar age' :-)
>
> > to these two singers respectively? (I am merely trying to understand
> > your usage of statistics here).
> >
>
> I hope you got some picture of my usage of statistics from my list:-)
>
> > > The former compensated by raising her singing abilitities (thanks
> > > to Lata's rasing the standards of singing in Hindi films)
> >
> > That is a most subjective conclusion. Anyone could make that
> > statement regarding 'raising ths standards' about their favorite
> > singer. I will safely presume that you are applying the Ravi Krishna
> > theory backwards here, and refrain from further comments (Be glad!).
> >
>
> Come on now! How can you not agree that with Lata's entry, the "art"
> of film singing was raised to a level where it still is. One can
> argue that this distinction belongs to KLSaigal and I will not dispute
> that. But, amongst the female singers, she is the one. Lata's song
> in Mahal (aayega aane wala) made Kumar Gandharva comment that her
> sur was so precise that it could be used to tune a tanpura. Is there
> a greater compliment for a singer? Even Asha has, on many occasions,
> admitted that Lata's superior abilitites made her strive harder to
> get to her level. She couldn't compete voice-wise, but she wanted to
> still get to that position by hard work and she did (almost!).
>
> This is not a subjective conclusion that I pulled out of my hat:-)
> It is a fact and I would like you or anyone else to disprove it by
> giving specific examples of songs and the effect it had.
>
> > > RDB was a smart man - when he was creating music for posterity to
> > > remember him, he chose LM. For his 'chaalu' stuff, he chose others
> > > :-)
> >
> > :-) Finally, something on which we can argue objectively. Try
> > this simple assignment, dear sir. Please list RDB's any number of most
> > popular (read 'music for posterity to remember him') songs. And I mean
> > _popular_, not your personal favorites. Now count the proportion of
> > songs sung by LM vs. 'others'. Just one 'other' will be enough to
> > disprove your tall, yet misinformed and misplaced claim.
> >
>
> When I said 'for posterity;, I meant his "QUALITY" songs, not the
> 'piya too ab to aaja" or "duniya mein logon ko" kind of "POPULAR"
> songs. When I say quality, I mean his work that can hold it's own
> against the best of compositions of the 'golden era'. Your yardstick
> might be different, but mine is the music of the 60s and the 70s.
>
> > And I take it from your statement that all RDB songs sung by
> > 'others' must be 'chaalu', since they do not have LM. Wonder what that
> > makes of stuff like 'Ijaazat'...
> >
>
> Yes, 'ijazzat' is great and AB is phenomenal. Despite that, is it better
> than 'ghar aaja ghir aayi' - in any respect? Or even 'jiya na laage..'?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anil (who is oiling his swords. It's been a while since the last WAR)
P. Raghavan
rth...@Ra.MsState.Edu (Renu Thamma) wrote:
>(There might be multiple copies of this post, thanks to some newsserver
>problems we've been having. Apologies.)
>
>Anil Hingorani (ahin...@arco.ny.jpmorgan.com) wrote:
>
>> 'piya too ab to aaja" or "duniya mein logon ko" kind of "POPULAR"
>> songs. When I say quality, I mean his work that can hold it's own
>> against the best of compositions of the 'golden era'. Your yardstick
>> might be different, but mine is the music of the 60s and the 70s.
>
>subjective post? I think not. Posterity or 'the condition of being
>remembered after the passage of time', is not always the same as
>quality. And posterity is also NOT defined by 'songs that can hold
>their own against the golden era'. That would be going backward in
>time, not forward, Anil. :)
>
>Ask any of the teenagers of today who listen to Indian film music ---
>'piya tu ab to aaja', even before its remix versions came out, is
>always remembered. My parents remember it, and I do and so will our
>next generation. That is a song for 'posterity'.
>
>aaja' kind of songs? Time and again Lata fans go around bandying the
>word 'bazaaru' (inspired by Naushad) whenever they think of Asha.
>semi-classical songs, why is that necessarily the greater talent? I do
>believe that 'aao na gale lagaao na' (another 'pedestrian' song by
>Anil's standards) and the likes of it are as difficult to sing if not
>semi-classical songs, but they are tough nevertheless.
>
>one's choice. But the talent required to sing a 'piya tu' or for that
>matter to compose one is formidable too. And to appreciate the former
>one doesn't have to necessarily trivialize the latter.
>
>Like I've said in the past here --- If pretending to be a Lata-wannabe is
>the only way Asha can endear herself to Lata fans, then it won't happen.
>In fact, if trying to do a Lata is the only way an artist can prove her
>merit to Lata-philes, then that is truly their shortsightedness.
I cannot disagree with the fact that Asha was a great singerin her own
way; but so were Geet Dutt and S.Janaki and Vani from south. But in no
way can she be placed in the same position as Lata.
Lata was an execpetion to all the singers I mentioned above. She was a
born singer. Right after her first song; songs came and fell at her feet.
She did not go around tapping any MD's doorstep. In fact she
refused to sing for Madan Mohan initially because he was known to be
a flamboyant person(very Angrezi type) and she had doubts about his skills
as a music director. SHe had a big ego right; but it was because of that MDs
knew they could not feed her crap and get away with it. No wonder the best
ones like Naushad, MadanMohan and Roshan got their best only from her.
One aspect about Asha's career I hate was the influence she held over her
MDs to throttle other singers's careers. Everone points their finger only
towards Lata but there is no evidence that she actually did it. If she really
did want to, then why did she stop singing with Rafi for 5 yerars
and get Suman get the choicest of duets with him. Or why would she fight with
S.D.Burman knowing thet he would turn towards Asha. The fact is that she did
not
give a damn as to who came and went, she knew will get the best.(and she
continues to do so)
Asha on the other hand used her personal liasons with MDs like
C.Ramachandra, O.P.Nayyar and ofcourse RDB to her advantage. Refer to
OPNs interview he gave a couple of months before, where he has acknowledged
that he had to forget Geeta Dutt altogether because of Asha. And Asha would
have been nowhere without OPN. I feel that the first good song she sang in her
career was in Mere Sanam "Jaayiye Aap Jahan", 14 years after she
entered the industry. Everyone knows that OPN detested Lata; he used this
personal animosity towards Lata to train Asha and give her the confidence she
needed to make it big.
And after OPN started losing his magic touch, she dumped him royally and
carried on with RDB. Personally I find the way she used her personal equations
with these men to boost her career very disgusting. And there is a lot of
evidence that Asha used to pull off stunts to belittle her female cosingers
in the recording room. SHe used to do this so thet the singer would no
longer focus on the song and Asha will come out flying in the song.In the
recording of the qawwali from Arzoo, she was supposed to have passed off some
uncharitable comments about Mubarak Begum; so said Mubarak begum in an
interview. You may argue that MB might have been lying; if she was then why
she did not say anything about Lata? And in his biography on Lata,
Raju Bharatan(I do not have high regards for his analysis but he gives the
facts correctly) says how Asha refused to sing with the new comer Vani Jayaram
for Naushad in Aaina. Was she scared of her so much that vani might be
praised for outbeating the great Asha in a song?
There were many singers who were no less than Asha like Vani Jayaram,
Mubarak Begum but they did not have any OPN to support them. It can be
claimed that she would be still singing without OPN ; yeah she would be
churning absolutely worthless songs.
Raghavan.P
Arunabha
Hi,
>>Like I've said in the past here --- If pretending to be a Lata-wannabe is
>>the only way Asha can endear herself to Lata fans, then it won't happen.
>>In fact, if trying to do a Lata is the only way an artist can prove her
>>merit to Lata-philes, then that is truly their shortsightedness.
>
>
> I cannot disagree with the fact that Asha was a great singerin her own
>way; but so were Geet Dutt and S.Janaki and Vani from south. But in no
>way can she be placed in the same position as Lata.
I cannot disagree w/ the fact that Geeta dutt was agreat voice, of the other
singers I have not heard enough to give an opinion. In fact of Vani I have heard
only Meera which IMHO left a lot to be desired. She did a great job in Bol re
papihara , but as they say, one swallow does not make a summer. She may have
been a great force to reckon with in the film industry in the south but since I
have no information about this I will not comment.
> Lata was an execpetion to all the singers I mentioned above. She was a
>born singer. Right after her first song; songs came and fell at her feet.
>She did not go around tapping any MD's doorstep. In fact she
>refused to sing for Madan Mohan initially because he was known to be
>a flamboyant person(very Angrezi type) and she had doubts about his skills
>as a music director. SHe had a big ego right; but it was because of that MDs
>knew they could not feed her crap and get away with it. No wonder the best
>ones like Naushad, MadanMohan and Roshan got their best only from her.
I am sifting the objective information from the above eulogy. Every fan incl.
myself has a tendency to paiunt his own idol in the most brilliant of hues. What
is true, no doubt is that Lata was a great playback singer. About her ego
preventing MD's from dishing out crap, and so on and so forth, let me make an
observation. It's extremely common to see Asha bashed w/ the foll.: she just did
whatever came her way, no discretion exercised, sang any crap no just to pull
along. I would like to ask, isn't this EXACTLY what Lata did towards the end of
her career ? If she was so cautious as to have misgivings about Madan Mohan , so
prima donna to turn her nose down at Main Kaa Karoon Raam because of so-called
sensual nature of these songs, can these expalin why she is singing eacha nd
every song for any Tom Dick and harry composer of today? If Madan mohan required
to be examined for his "proper knowledge of Indian music", do not the current
crop too ? That too, I am taking it your info. about MM is at a time when Lata
was starting out on her illustrious career. Surely if she had the conviction and
commitment to quality then , when she was not well-settled , career wise and
financially, what prevents her, now, quite comfortable financially, from turning
down offers ? Is it just lucre , senility or an unwillingness to accept that
toime has flown since Aayega Aanewaala ? I have nothing against her trying her
hand at new songs- for instance, her best today will compare with the best of
today's singers, provided she has an excellent composition to match (since her
voice alo0ne will not carry her) . But it is unfair that people always tend to
use these arguments against Asha , and conveniently overlook them when mention
of Lata is made.
One thing I have often wondered is about the turnover lata made in the kinds of
songs . I think she was fortunate to arrive at a time when the Begums, also
Amirbai, Parul Ghosh Kanan D. were given to singing ina more archaic style ,
somewhat nasal (I don't know exactly how to put it) , somewhat like the way Lata
sings Jiya beqaraar hai . When , in the midst of such singing, you have a pure
voice singing Aayega aanewaala , it is bound to create a stir. Contrast this
with the challenge faced by all the others who entered after lata. They were not
able to present this kind of a radically different approach to singing, as Lata
had already set the precedent. While people might say Lata had a tough time
entering the industry I feel it was actuially fortunate for her to arrive at an
optimum time . If ,s ay , instead geeta Dutt had entered, with her silken voice,
I feel she would have carved a niche for herself as well. Of course, MHO.
> One aspect about Asha's career I hate was the influence she held over her
>MDs to throttle other singers's careers. Everone points their finger only
>towards Lata but there is no evidence that she actually did it. If she really
>did want to, then why did she stop singing with Rafi for 5 yerars
>and get Suman get the choicest of duets with him. Or why would she fight with
>S.D.Burman knowing thet he would turn towards Asha. The fact is that she did
>not
>give a damn as to who came and went, she knew will get the best.(and she
>continues to do so)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(Mirth ..... ) ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ! ! Get real ! You can't be serious !
I mean,be objective. The only reason Lata i included nowadays is for vinatge
value. There are few exceptions like Hridaynath and Bhupen Hazarika who can
utilize her voice well. The rest just assume she is the same crystal clear voice
of 40 years back, and the results are there for everyone to see.
As for these tales from their past lives, it does not really matter. I mean Asha
fans are going to come up with Lata tales and vice versa, then there is the
issue of who is right . When everyone points their finger towards Lata, surely
they are not all cretins ! Aakhir sab ko to Lata se jaani dushmani nahin padi
huyi hai. And even if a singer has led a manipulative career, led an immoral
life etc etc while it amy take away from their charcater, it really does not
take away from their work.
I think the really big factor in Lata's success ,besides of course her greatness
as a singer with a gifted voice, which we often ignore, is the optimum timing of
her commencement of playback singing.
> Asha on the other hand used her personal liasons with MDs like
>C.Ramachandra, O.P.Nayyar and ofcourse RDB to her advantage. Refer to
Yes, I agree that asha might have manipulated OPN, if what he says is right.
Could very well be true. Do you think, BTW, that if OPN was not satisfied with
Asha , he would not have gone to other singers ? The fact of the matter is that
OPN , with his bias, was nevertheless able to give his best with Asha and so did
not have to consider other avenues.
If she had such a stronghold on RDB, why did he perpetually stick to Lata for
ruining his good compositions, long after her voice had given up ? Surely he
would not in that case have made his Lata = Don Bradman and asha= Gary Sobers
comparisons, if he had been this kind of uxorious person tied to Asha's pallu as
you would want to paint him as.
C ramachandra and Asha manipulatin him! Pshaw ! How many Lata nos. can you
recall w/ CR and how many Asha? refer to Vandana's article on Asha's ten best
songs of her choice where she says that if CR had recognized Asha's potential
earlier on, theirs would have been a great partnership. Cr has worked w/ lata
much more. I hope I've quoted you correctly, Vandana.
>OPNs interview he gave a couple of months before, where he has acknowledged
>that he had to forget Geeta Dutt altogether because of Asha. And Asha would
>have been nowhere without OPN. I feel that the first good song she sang in her
Asha nowhere without OPN ! Supp. I say Lata nowhere without Madan mohan , do you
think it will be true ? It is indeed unfortunate that Asha's great work with
MD's other than OPN and RDB (the only two "men in her life") goes vastly
ignored. Asha's songs of the 50's and 60's are practically unknown (to the
eextent that even I do not know of many (Hindi) songs of her in this era-
obtainig them at the market proves so tough
) You have to listen to just one Marathi Natyageet / Bhavgeet or Bengali song of
hers in this period to realise that she did not depend solely on OPN, RDB to
produce mellifluous songs. It might be hard to stomach it, but the fact remains
that Asha was just as indispensable for the film industry as Lata . Halka
Phulkas are as important as moti rotis, if I may bring in that hilarious
comaprison again.
>career was in Mere Sanam "Jaayiye Aap Jahan", 14 years after she
>entered the industry. Everyone knows that OPN detested Lata; he used this
>personal animosity towards Lata to train Asha and give her the confidence she
>needed to make it big.
>And after OPN started losing his magic touch, she dumped him royally and
>carried on with RDB.
Yes, yes, tell us another one.... the manipulative career woman , blah blah
blah, .. if you read OPN's interview objectively you would notice that he says
that HE decided to part ways rather than her , And while he does say that she
was career -oriented and all that, he is on record to say that she was never
ungrateful. Anyway, whty are we discussing their personal lives ?
You may argue that MB might have been lying; if she was then why
>she did not say anything about Lata? And in his biography on Lata,
>Raju Bharatan(I do not have high regards for his analysis but he gives the
No, i won't argue that MB was lying. In one's own life one has so many petty
clashes, are you going to hold one responsible for them and take them to court
everytime ? Come on.
>facts correctly) says how Asha refused to sing with the new comer Vani Jayaram
>for Naushad in Aaina. Was she scared of her so much that vani might be
>praised for outbeating the great Asha in a song?
When lata refuses to sing for SDB, refuses to sing with rafi ,ponders over
whether MM is good enough, she is being selective. Not temperamental. How is it
clear to you that Asha declined to sing because she was scared. If so, how did
she ever "dare " to sing along with lata (and royally trounce her every time) Is
lata the only one allowed to have fits of temperament ?
Do you think Asha who had survived in an era with the illustrious likes of
Suraiyya , Geeta Dutt and shamshad Begumw ould shy away , being well settled
already , from singing with Vani Jayaram.
, ,> There were many singers who were no less than Asha like Vani Jayaram,
>Mubarak Begum but they did not have any OPN to support them. It can be
>claimed that she would be still singing without OPN ; yeah she would be
>churning absolutely worthless songs.
Awaken to the fact that Asha sang with other MD's, is all i can say. You might
find something to interest you. As to what one considers worthless,that is every
person's individual opinion .
Regards,
Arunabha.
Why do i invariably get drawn into this war , time and again ?
Anil Ubale
Pradeep Dubey wrote:
>
> I thought the best part of the interlude in this song was:
> "aaiye aaiye Anand babu, aap aur is mandir mein, hsssshhhhh
> gao beti, gao ..."
>
Yes, yes, bandhu, me too think the same.
- so let me try to correct it:
Madan Puri (?) : AAiye aaiye Anand Babu, aap aur is mandir
mein, mujhe pahachaana nahin ?
RK (saying it the way he is known for) : shhh ... Gaaiye naa, aap ruk
kyun gayi ?
Leela Mishra (?) : Gaao na beti, gaao ..
anil
Vandana Venkatesan
Hema (hnk...@pitt.edu) wrote:
=> I am surprised to know that! What's wrong with such great MDs?
=> ....
=> What exactly was bazaru, I am trying to guage here. Can someone help?
=> This is really painful...it really hurts.
Don't agonize, you poor thing! :) :) Here's a general observation
which might help you : Being a great MD or a liberalistic director or
a popular journalist or a regular RMIMer or a good father (you get the
idea) is not mutually exclusive of one being an MCP.
--
Vandana vven...@pcocd2.intel.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of Intel.
###### Visit the CRY webpage @ http://www.cry.org ######
Anil Hingorani
Renu,
Renu Thamma wrote:
>
<snip>
> Now my bigger problem. Exactly what is wrong with the 'piya tu ab to
> aaja' kind of songs? Time and again Lata fans go around bandying the
> word 'bazaaru' (inspired by Naushad) whenever they think of Asha.
> While I agree that we do not have as many discussions on Asha's
> semi-classical songs, why is that necessarily the greater talent? I do
> believe that 'aao na gale lagaao na' (another 'pedestrian' song by
> Anil's standards) and the likes of it are as difficult to sing if not
> tougher. Yes, they require a different set of skills than to sing
> semi-classical songs, but they are tough nevertheless.
>
Well nothing is wrong with 'piya tu' and so your problem is not all that
big:-) It is a good song and yes, Asha is excellent. Also, I agree it
takes a lot of talent and control to be able to sing songs like that.
On the other hand, let's also be clear that doing vocal acrobatics
without any reference to 'sur' does not make that particular skill
neccessarily difficult, let alone more difficult than singing
semi-classical which requires rigid control over one's 'sur'.
I have never said or believed that songs like 'piya tu' are bad. But
to call them classics, in the same league as 'jeevan jyot jale' is,
IMO, totally improper. Maybe, my frame of reference is just different
from yours:-)
> If one chooses to remember Asha by her semi-classical numbers, that is
> one's choice. But the talent required to sing a 'piya tu' or for that
> matter to compose one is formidable too. And to appreciate the former
> one doesn't have to necessarily trivialize the latter.
>
I like the Asha who is versatile. Yes, she can do most any type of
song extremely well. She has worked very hard and I respect her for
that. However, all this still does not make her the best singer, IMO.
I am sympathetic to her getting second fiddle treatment, but I refuse
to feel sorry for her and overcompensate by calling her the best singer
ever. She is supremely talented and I am a fan of hers for that reason.
> Like I've said in the past here --- If pretending to be a Lata-wannabe is
> the only way Asha can endear herself to Lata fans, then it won't happen.
> In fact, if trying to do a Lata is the only way an artist can prove her
> merit to Lata-philes, then that is truly their shortsightedness.
>
I wouldn't want that to happen either. Both the sister's had their own
unique way and I appreciate and enjoy them both.
Last weekend, I drove to DC and on the way mad it a point to listen
to only Asha for about 3.5 hours. I listened to everything from 'phir
se aaiyo..' to 'ab ke baras..' to 'bagh mein kali khili' - the whole
gamut (even 'piya tu'!). And then I played the first volume of 'rare
gems' by Lata and as soon as the second song started, I knew why Lata
is what she is:-) There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in Asha's
repertoire (and I am not saying it with disrespect), that pierces my
heart like Lata's voice does. And just the prelude to 'sapne ban sajan'
did that for me. What a voice - pristine with amazing sweetness. And
what perfect singing.....Nothing in this world comes close to that
feeling.....
Cheers,
cAt
U.V. Ravindra wrote:
>
> > I can think of Runa laila also in that list.
>
> Come, now! Runa Laila and "raina beeti jaaye"?! Somehow it doesn't
> "feel" quite right :))
>
> --
well to sum it up, runa laila was my first love. she has the most
beautiful voice and she can sing. poor woman is just out of practice in
singing hindi/urdu, since she was thrown into bangla. i think, the
reason "raina beeti jaye" reminds someone of runa laila is her song:
"kaatay na katay ray ratya": similar lingo :-))
Mush
> Ravi, Krishna wrote:
> >
<SNIP>
> > I hardly care for L bashing by A fans. For me both were ( past tense
> > intentional) excellent. It is just that I like L songs more than A. In fact
> > I feel that L was plainly lucky to get some of the immortal tunes in 50s and
> > 60s. In my list of all time great songs no singer (male or female) comes
> > anywhere close to L. Lata just walked away with the best tunes and of course
> > being a great singer she WAS she did full justice to it , claims by A fans
> > notwithstading.
> >
> > -- RaviK.
>
Dear friends,
With respect of all L and A lovers I would add only this line.
Songs by Lata is like a music composed on a synthetic keyboard. It
has a great mechanic attraction.
While Asha's song are sung by a human flute or a violin.