tasveer tere dil mein: an unabashed analysis
Manish Kumar
analysis, one is only fooling himself and so i try to be objective.
(2) putting other artists down doesn't elevate my favorite so i try to
be respectful. (3) ultimate primary source in music is the song
itself.
long before i was aware of any controversy behind this song, i
casually listened to it. i *love* lata like the next guy. however,
lata's singing of the antaras with "nainon ka kajraa" sounded very
average and really hit my ears. rafi sounded fine but i've heard
better from him. upon reflection, this shouldn't have surprised me.
women have naturally higher voices than men. as a result (only a
hypothesis) - it is more difficult for female singers to make a high
jump in scale, than it is for male singers.
sure, the composition was difficult as it required you to sing high
pitch AND sing fast. however, that was nothing new for rafi who
already did both in songs like insaaf ka mandir hai (last part) or ae
mohabbat zindabad and later with dil ke jharoke mein. rafi sang all 3
excellently and i'm sure therea more examples. conclusion: if the song
required 18 takes, it isn't because rafi himself struggled with the
reason.
i could stop here but i'll continue to speculate (surely i can be
wrong so i'm just throwing it out): observing that lata *still*
sounded average even in the final take of the song that we all hear
today - i can only conclude that she struggled with the song herself.
salil noticed it and ordered retakes. professionally in music, salil
regarded rafi as the best (indicated in printed interview).
personally, salil had better relations with lata then rafi. perhaps
salil & lata were frustrated with lata struggling in delivering the
composition and vented out on rafi.
i'm *told* that the composition was revised for lata's sake (scales
were reduced). if anyone can verify this - then my speculation is
correct. since lata & salil were personally close - they together
stuck to a story and told everyone that rafi struggled with the song.
forgive me, but listening to the final song and looking at rafi's
career of songs rendered - salil & lata's story doesn't add up. plain
and simple. the ultimate primary sources will always be out there for
music lovers.
no doubt there was a lot of tension during the recording. due to
salil's belittling, rafi was not his most comfortable as he was with
sj or naushad and so he did not sing this song as well as he did with
compositions more difficult like dil ke jharoke mein. fellow mds & co-
singers criticized sj for making rafi singing the latter song the way
he did because it is very difficult for a singer and can compromise
one's health? a difficult rendition indeed. another possible
explanation is that perhaps the salil & rafi did not understand each
other clearly as in how the composition was to be rendered or have the
chemistry like the way sj, roshan, naushad, madan mohan, laxmikant
pyarelal, sd burman, chitragupta, ravi, op nayyar, kalyanji anandji -
did with rafi.
i love salil choudhury and am glad he opted for other singers. his
compositions didn't particularly require rafi and the few that did -
salil got rafi. this way, we got variety. so if salil didn't have the
best rapport with rafi - that's ok. was there a male singer better
suited for tasveer tere dil mein than rafi? salil apparently didn't
think so.
Jay
Manishjee:
Every decade (or, call it generation) has its followers/fans ...lets
say for instance: cine music. I am sure you will agree with this ??
If the above is true, then in that case since 1931, cine music has
lived through nearly eight generations. And Manish Kumar belongs to
the 3rd or 4th ! Which one? Me; from the 2nd generation and at a time
when RADIO / GRAMAPHONE / RECORDS were for the affluent ...and for
those who could afford it ! Thats the real truth !
Now, you are from the 3rd/4th generation when today you have
practically everything via the internet and DVDs , etc What you have
TRULY MISSED is the MELODIC APPEAL imparted into any song, cine / non-
cine, whichever. The VOICE (S) 'do not produce' melody... repeat : do
not produce melody.Rather, the tune and the orchestral setup, timing/
duration of the tiny pieces, the (minimum) percussions deployed; all
are accountable in the overall 'melody' in the song. The MD is the
SUPREME ARCHITECT in this entire scenario, because he CREATES the TUNE
& its antaras on the lyrics. A real MD advises his ASSISTANT /
ARRANGER accdgly of what he 'desires' of the output. Prior to this,
the singer (s) are thoroughly rehearsed after evaluating the AVAILABLE
voice(s) culture(s). Here,the singber is just a LAY person...may be
qualified or juvenile or inbetween. In either of the situations, the
MD thoroughly educates the singing voice(s) of the objective desired,
Recordings take place and are not okayed until & unless the MD present
beside the Sound Recordist and intently 'listening' to the song being
recorded is thoroughly satisfied with the 'take'. Not only that, the
MD has to SIGN and endorse that ...then only the tape goes to the
factory for RECORD manufacture.
Late G.M. Durrani just before his demise told me something interesting
during a conversation at his house. MIRZA SAHIBAN duet : Haath seeney
pey rakh d to karar aa jaaye... sung by NJ / GMD composed by Pt.
Amarnath, who never lived to see the take. Mr. P.N.Arora was the sound
recordist then for that film. There were six (6) takes of that
duet..why? Not because of any errors...but merely to accomplish the
BEST POSSIBLE one. Finally all the six takes were replayed over and
over again before MDs: H-B, Pn.Arora, NJ, GMD& the K.Amarnath, the
director.
Believe it or not,Jay; GMD said; all the six takes were perfect and
identical..just coudn't discriminate which to select and which to
reject !!!
Jay
11/4
Chetan Vinchhi
> analysis, one is only fooling himself and so i try to be objective.
> (2) putting other artists down doesn't elevate my favorite so i try to
> be respectful. (3) ultimate primary source in music is the song
> itself.
Thanks for your candid post, Manish. When I read the subject I made 2
mistakes. One, I couldn't identify the song you were talking about
because of "tere" instead of "terii". Second, I thought you said
"unbiased" analysis and, well, there is no such thing in music and the
arts :)
> women have naturally higher voices than men. as a result (only a
> hypothesis) - it is more difficult for female singers to make a high
> jump in scale, than it is for male singers.
You seem to be jumbling up concepts here. Do a google search on one or
two such RMIM discussions and you might get some more insight into
sclaes and related issues.
> however, that was nothing new for rafi
Okay, so you contend this was unfamiliar territory for Lata?
> conclusion: if the song
> required 18 takes, it isn't because rafi himself struggled with the
> reason.
Do you admit to the possibility that you are jumping to conclusions?
> professionally in music, salil
> regarded rafi as the best (indicated in printed interview).
I can't believe that Salil regarded Rafi as the best *male* (forget
about the fairer sex!) singer. Can you produce the said interview?
> personally, salil had better relations with lata then rafi. perhaps
> salil & lata were frustrated with lata struggling in delivering the
> composition and vented out on rafi.
Whoa!!! This is so speculative it belongs to the realm of fantasies
(most conspiracy theories do belong there, no?).
> i'm *told* that the composition was revised for lata's sake (scales
> were reduced).
Told by whom? Does your informer have access to inside information?
Any case, let us examine the source and the context and try to come up
with more airtight theories.
C
Sathya Sekar
>> singers criticized sj for making rafi singing the latter song the way
>> he did because it is very difficult for a singer and can compromise
>> one's health
Touching ! I equally criticize SJ for the song - but while my concern
is also about one's health, its more for the ears of the listener than
the singer :) Just IMO :)
>> personally, salil had better relations with lata then rafi. perhaps
>> salil & lata were frustrated with lata struggling in delivering the
>> composition and vented out on rafi.
>Whoa!!! This is so speculative it belongs to the realm of fantasies
>(most conspiracy theories do belong there, no?).
Agree totally.
In fact, per Raju Bharatan's Lata biography (which confessedly has
plenty of such fantastic claims), to the contrary, it was due to
Rafi's inability to hit the right notes that caused the numerous
takes.
- Sathya
Manish Kumar
one cannot please everybody. the composition suited the situation in
the movie *perfectly*. a man is protesting to his unfaithful beloved.
there are different approaches to composing for this kind of
situation. this is one of them. it is not designed to be pleasant and
sweet as honey for her. of course, there are other types that are
sweet as honey and rafi mastered the entire variety. you can have
"styles" like patthar ke sanam, aaj ki raat mere, sari kushiyon zamana
ke liye, dil jo ne ke saka, yahan main ajnabi hoon, din dhal jaye,
kyse kya hogaya, barbaad e mohabbat etc. different varieties for
different tastes.
you may not have liked this particular style and thought it was poor
for the ears. nevertheless, there are many more fans who loved it and
the song is *evergreen to this day*. end of story.
i was aware of that. raju bharatan has been proven to give incorrect
information. his credibility is often questioned.
Manish Kumar
On Apr 10, 10:37 pm, Chetan Vinchhi <vinc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > women have naturally higher voices than men. as a result (only a
> > hypothesis) - it is more difficult for female singers to make a high
> > jump in scale, than it is for male singers.
>
> You seem to be jumbling up concepts here. Do a google search on one or
> two such RMIM discussions and you might get some more insight into
> sclaes and related issues.
Prior to this thread, I read all threads visible in RMIM archive that
were relevant to this song. In any case - that was a trivial point I
won't pursue.
> > however, that was nothing new for rafi
>
> Okay, so you contend this was unfamiliar territory for Lata?
No. However, Rafi was *peerless* in this territory.
> > conclusion: if the song
> > required 18 takes, it isn't because rafi himself struggled with the
> > reason.
>
> Do you admit to the possibility that you are jumping to conclusions?
*Could* my conclusion be wrong? Sure. Jumping? No. My conclusion is
based on (1) Listening to Rafi render *more difficult* compositions
than this. (2) Rafi showing again and again in his career that he has
the god gifted voice control to render the composition in question
without much difficulty. / These premises are rational, logical, and
out in the open for music lovers to *enjoy*. In fact, the next phase
is to cite specific songs that and discuss them in greater detail.
> > professionally in music, salil
> > regarded rafi as the best (indicated in printed interview).
>
> I can't believe that Salil regarded Rafi as the best *male* (forget
> about the fairer sex!) singer. Can you produce the said interview?
Sure.
Original Bengali interview + RMIM translation:
Relevant excerpt:
"There is no doubt that Kishore possessed an exceptional voice. But
voice alone is not everything. I have to say that if Kishore had
classical training he would have been a different Kishore. Not only by
popularity, but also by the yard stick of qualitative merit of singing
Kishore could have reached the place occupied by Rafi."
The take home message is that Salil held Rafi in high esteem. The
indication is clear - Salil believed that Rafi occupied the place that
all singers aspired to reach.
> > personally, salil had better relations with lata then rafi. perhaps
> > salil & lata were frustrated with lata struggling in delivering the
> > composition and vented out on rafi.
>
> Whoa!!! This is so speculative it belongs to the realm of fantasies
> (most conspiracy theories do belong there, no?).
1) salil had better personal relations with lata than rafi: WELL KNOWN
2) lata struggled with the composition: i conclude this based on
listening to the song. sure some will question my judgment - so be it.
Yep, I agree this is speculation. At the same time, I have read
incidences where Lata was very patient with recordings. One time an
MD's assistant had Lata repeatedly sing the same lines many many times
and kept her at the studio late into night. Later, that assistant was
found to brag that the first take was acceptable but he just did it
for kicks. Another incident, for reasons not related to Lata's
rendering of the takes, she had to do 18 retakes. Madan Mohan's son
asked her aren't you tired? She responds: What to do? Some of my best
songs have been done when I'm dead tired. The point of these
incidences is obviously to remind that Lata was a hard working,
patient person. So why this time did she lose her cool with her co-
singer, especially one with whom she had excellent rapport? Just
happenstance? Something seems amiss.
> > i'm *told* that the composition was revised for lata's sake (scales
> > were reduced).
>
> Told by whom? Does your informer have access to inside information?
> Any case, let us examine the source and the context and try to come up
> with more airtight theories.
Good question. I will try to get in touch with the knowledgeable music
lover who told me this. I'm hoping there maybe some knowledgeable RMIM
members who spoke to someone involved in this song e.g. musician.
Anyone know Honest Raju's source for his version of the story?
Manish Kumar
>> you may not have liked this particular style and thought it was poor
>> for the ears. nevertheless, there are many more fans who loved it and
>> the song is *evergreen to this day*. end of story.
>
> I am not denying its popularity but only its quality. So, "Each To His
> Own" - that is the true "End of story".
(1) A simple & effective way to *start* when judging quality is to see
how well something stands the test of time - 40 years later!
Popularity upon release is an awful indicator but "popularity 40 years
later" is a good one and "popularity 80 years later" is even better.
(2) You must evaluate the film composition in its proper context. How
well does it add to the scene? You don't seem to be doing this. / "Dil
Ke Jharoke Mein" comes out with flying colors on both considerations.
"Each to his own" has its bounds of reasonable subjectivity.
>> i was aware of that. raju bharatan has been proven to give incorrect
>> information. his credibility is often questioned.
>
> Well, you would agree then that there is scope for your own sources
> and informants to be equally questionable ?
>
> Mind, I am not arguing your take on the song or Lata's apparent
> "struggle". In fact, the "jhuumataa hai" part of the second stanza of
> the Kohinoor duet "do sitaaro.n kaa zamii.n par" is also an instance
> where Lata appears to be uncomfortable. So you have a point there.
My *key* source: the songs we have to enjoy from Mohammed Rafi. There
is a *very specific & extreme claim* behind "tasveer teri dil mein"
that I am questioning. This sets apart the song from others in giving
guidance on what to speculate. You don't have this kind of specific
and extreme context for the Kohinoor duet and therefore to analyze it
in similar would be excess speculation indeed. As for me mentioning
that someone indicated Salil modified the composition for Lata - I
only threw it out there for someone to confirm / deny with more
information. Yes, it can surely be false.
"Rafi struggled with the song". That is a very vague statement that
needs clarification. Struggled in what sense? Vocals? Understanding
the MD? There's a difference. I am increasingly considering that Salil
& Rafi did not understand each other here and that is why so many
takes. I'm inclined to this idea because it reduces speculation. I
believe my ears first and foremost. Honest Raju put me on guard to
this approach. In fact, can anyone provide a source for what
specifically Lata or Salil said? **Is Raju Bharatan the source?** If
so, nevermind. Thank you.
Manish Kumar
normally i just enjoy the music as that is the point of it. here i'll
make an exception (i'm not proud of it) given the controversy behind
this song. in honor of k for kishore - i will give scores. first
number is voice quality, second number is expression of emotions.
score out of 5. scores are not precise but just a rough idea of what i
thought of each antara in question. i'm listening to the revival
version. forgive me for typos in hinglish.
1:00 naye naye rang leke sapnon ki mehfil (lata) - 5 5
1:19 naye naye rang leke sapnon ke mehfil (rafi) - 3 5
1:48 nainon ki kajra (lata) - 3 5 doesn't sound her best at this scale
1:57 nainon ki kajra (lata) - 3 4
2:03 rahu tere peeche peeche (lata) - 3 2
2:20 naye naye rang leke sapnon ki mehfil (lata) - 4 3
2:48 jahan hai kadam tere (rafi) - 3 5
2:56 jahan hai kadam tere (rafi) - 3 5
3:03 kulhe jahan zulfe tere (rafi) - 4 4
3:19 naye naye range leke sapnon ki mehfil (rafi) - 4 4
3:47 ruk na sakega dil ka toofan (lata) - 2 3***
3:56 ruk na sakega dil ka toofan (lata) - 1 2***
4:19 naye naye rang leke sapnon ki mehfil (lata) - 5 5
4:35: naye naye rang leke sapnon ki mehfil (both) - 4
3:47 and 3:56 are what make me think that lata struggled with the song
- even during the final retake. rafi maintains his emotions and voice
even while going to high pitch. i can't say the same for lata in all
the anataras.
Arun Taneja
I don't know about the technicalities..but Rafi sounds about twice as good
as Lata in this song..Lata is trying too hard to hit a high note, her high
notes are standing out in the song and not flowing with the rythm and pace
of the song.
Whats the point in "trying" to hit the so called "right" note..if it does
not sound good in the end?
Rafi sounds much better in this song in my opinion, and as far as Rafi's
ability of hitting the high notes is concerned I think there were better MDs
than Salil Chaudhary who have made better use of Rafi...SD burman has used
Rafi with higher notes than Salil was trying to do here with much more
success..so I don't know who to blame.
"Manish Kumar" <mku...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fc64a3e2-cbe2-4b1c...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Prior to this thread, I read all threads visible in RMIM archive that
> were relevant to this song. In any case - that was a trivial point I
> won't pursue.
Those threads were not about this song. They were about male vs female
scales. If you think this is a trivial point, that's fine.
> > Okay, so you contend this was unfamiliar territory for Lata?
>
> No. However, Rafi was *peerless* in this territory.
This is a subjective claim a Lata fan or an Asha fan or a KK fan might
object to.
> (1) Listening to Rafi render *more difficult* compositions than this.
Is dil ke jharokhe me.n one such? I don't think that is a difficult
composition. Just high.
> (2) Rafi showing again and again in his career that he has
> the god gifted voice control to render the composition in question
> without much difficulty.
I agree that Rafi was a good singer. But he has struggled. For
instance in some of the really high songs his singing borders on
screaming (Mughl-e-azam and Changez Khan come to mind). In many
classical-based songs, he flounders (e.g. Rani Roopmati - 2 songs). In
songs demanding lower notes, he struggles (nothing comes to mind right
away but I will try to give some examples). In other words, he was not
god :) I would put Lata closer to godhood ;)
> Relevant excerpt:
>
> "There is no doubt that Kishore possessed an exceptional voice. But
> voice alone is not everything. I have to say that if Kishore had
> classical training he would have been a different Kishore. Not only by
> popularity, but also by the yard stick of qualitative merit of singing
> Kishore could have reached the place occupied by Rafi."
>
> The take home message is that Salil held Rafi in high esteem. The
> indication is clear - Salil believed that Rafi occupied the place that
> all singers aspired to reach.
Thanks for the interview. I concur that Salil did seem to hold Rafi in
high esteem, in spite of the fact that the above is a sort of a left-
handed compliment to Rafi.
> Yep, I agree this is speculation.
There is no further need for debate!
> Good question. I will try to get in touch with the knowledgeable music
> lover who told me this. I'm hoping there maybe some knowledgeable RMIM
> members who spoke to someone involved in this song e.g. musician.
> Anyone know Honest Raju's source for his version of the story?
I will look forward to your clarification. Maybe Gautam (are you
reading RMIM these days?) can shed some light on this.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Dil ke jharokhe mein is indeed very tough...though not that high.
> infact not high at all. it doesnt go beyond Sa'
Are you sure? It sounds higher than that.
I don't think it is a diffucult composition. Pretty straight lines,
almost amateurish - "kal tere jalawe paraaye bhii ho.nge" is
essentially at the same note and so on.
> ....anyhow, the song
> is indeed a difficult composition! scale changes with every antra, lot
> of jumping here and there...
I didn't notice any jumps within the same breath (presumably these are
harder to execute than the ones where singer is allowed to breathe).
Can you give examples?
> even parween sultana has become unbearable these days! ;-)
Oh, she was always unbearable up top. It is her bottom range that was
- and still is - impressive.
C
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> On Apr 13, 9:22 pm, Chetan Vinchhi <vinc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you sure? It sounds higher than that.
>
> or higher....I'm not sure),
E in fact.
and as said before, Rafi in his 40's had
> lost a lot of his range.
If you mean the late sixties after umpteen SJ-Shammi-etc. songs, I
would agree that he had started to lose some of his *bottom*, but I
would not call "Dil Ke Jharoke" evidence that he was losing his *top*
stuff (that did come, but later).
As for the highest note....it could be R',
> not more than that.....
Yes, it is no more than R'.
> > I don't think it is a diffucult composition. Pretty straight lines,
> > almost amateurish - "kal tere jalawe paraaye bhii ho.nge" is
> > essentially at the same note and so on.
>
> I'm a singer myself and from experience I can tell that holding a
> *single* high note at that scale for 4-5 seconds is tougher than
> climbing or descending; and in the same breath is truely remarkable!
As a(nother) singer, I agree that holding a note can be more difficult
than moving. However, given this particular pitch and that the
duration of each line (before taking a breath), I think this was
trivial for Rafi.
> You are correct when you say that 'kal tere jalwe paraye bhi honge' is
> the essentially same note, but not when you say its 'ameturish'....try
> singing it, you'll get what I'm trying to say! Ditto for 'lekin jhalak
> mere khabon mein hogi'
Yes, in that the notes have to be struck with minimal if any
deflection, and to be maintained with some momentum and energy without
it sounding like you are somehow "stuck" or worse, *reaching* up
there.
> > > ....anyhow, the song
>
> > > is indeed a difficult composition! scale changes with every antra, lot
> > > of jumping here and there...
>
> > I didn't notice any jumps within the same breath (presumably these are
> > harder to execute than the ones where singer is allowed to breathe).
> > Can you give examples?
>
> Jumping within the same antra. 'kal tere jalwe..' is high....with
> 'lekin jhalak...' he jumps to another (higher) scale. 'phoolon ki toli
> mein...' is low and 'lekin mehek mere...' goes even lower. All back-to-
> back and within the same antra. This is what I meant by jumping here
> and there...And in the next stanza, he changes sur from the first line
> itself and correspondingly with the lines following...(if my memory
> serves me right! I'll verify)
AFAIR all the antaras are identical in tune. To Chetan's point, there
is a (quick)breath between each line (and hence scale shift). That in
itself, however, doesn't guarantee a smooth landing on the next note
in a slightly different register. The composition may be called
amateurish, common, etc., but *executing* it neatly (which Mohd. Rafi
*did* IMO) cannot be taken for granted.
> > > even parween sultana has become unbearable these days! ;-)
>
> > Oh, she was always unbearable up top. It is her bottom range that was
> > - and still is - impressive.
>
> Her bottom range is exceptional, no doubts about that. But bottom
> range can *still* be developed through 'riaz' (vocal drills).
Range, yes, but range and volume in the mandra to the extent that a
Parween Sultana has it? I am not so sure. How your voice is naturally
built and will benefit from riyaaz has to come into play at some
point. I would say the same applies up top (there *are* vocal
techniques that enable you to expand, to some extent, your top range).
Top
> range is what you are blessed with. I myself have a range close to
> about 3 octaves (mostly in the top octaves) and know how difficult and
> painful it is to climb even one note above your range! Look at it this
> way...there are others singers known to hit ati-mandra Ni/ madra Sa
> but no one in the history of music was ever known to hit an ati-taar
> Ma/Pa!
You mean the history of Hindustani Classical Music, of course. Western
Classical Music has no dearth of such examples. Where HCM is
concerned, I suspect that better (artistic) judgement has also played
a role in us not hearing more extended ati-taar forays from vocalists.
True that I havnt heard a more powerful voice below madra Ma,
> and that she becomes piercingly shrill in the top octave, but the very
> fact that *only* she can sing it *makes* me like it!
Which brings to mind a well-known joke: "Why does a dog...? Because it
can."
Not that I'm a
> fan of her voice quality. She's known to go 'besur' a couple of times!
> (never got lucky enough to hear her do that though).
Her voice and technique seem on the whole robust enough to
*completely* eliminate this. She seems, however, even in the slower
passages, to get bored and/or distracted at times which leads to
lapses The hyperspeed stuff is very hit-or-miss. I liked her very
early albums, but have come away dissatisfied from most of what she's
recorded since then.
Sanjeev
Manish Kumar
get used to quote syntax on this board.
Chetan wrote:
>If you think this is a trivial point, that's fine.
I apologize for not being clear. I didn't mean that "male vs female in
scales" issue is trivial (quite the opposite in this song!). I meant
that what I had earlier written on this matter - I didn't want to
pursue. I *try* to be terse and cut down on points of contention to
avoid taking up the readers time. Nevertheless, I did an archive
search on this topic and was OVERWHELMED by so many posts. I will say
ONLY this (to keep it simple): referring to THIS SONG ONLY - based
purely on my musical listening - Rafi handles the high pitches better
than Lata. I will agree to disagree with any.
> > No. However, Rafi was *peerless* in this territory.
> This is a subjective claim a Lata fan or an Asha fan or a KK fan might
> object to.
Subjectivity has its limits. Suppose my mother thinks I'm a better
singer than Rafi...:) Nevertheless, fans will never unanimously agree
on this matter.
> > (1) Listening to Rafi render *more difficult* compositions than this.
> Is dil ke jharokhe me.n one such? I don't think that is a difficult
> composition. Just high.
"Tasveer teri dil mein" is a tough song because you *suddenly* go
*high* and sing *fast*. Dil Ke Jharoke Mein has *more* of the same
extreme elements: it is much higher and just as fast hence more
difficult.
> > (2) Rafi showing again and again in his career that he has
> > the god gifted voice control to render the composition in question
> > without much difficulty.
> I agree that Rafi was a good singer. But he has struggled. For
> instance in some of the really high songs his singing borders on
> screaming (Mughl-e-azam and Changez Khan come to mind). In many
> classical-based songs, he flounders (e.g. Rani Roopmati - 2 songs). In
> songs demanding lower notes, he struggles (nothing comes to mind right
> away but I will try to give some examples). In other words, he was not
> god :) I would put Lata closer to godhood ;)
Strongly disagree with you about Rafi on low scale. Rafi maintains a
crisp, velvet smooth voice in the National Award Winning song "Tumse
Kahoon Ek Baat Parson Se" that Madan Mohan composed. More examples
which have low scale notes: Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon (one of KA's
personal favorites), Din Dhal Jaye, Hum Bekhudi Mein, and one of my
favorite songs of all time "Main Gaoon Tum So Jaao Na" (happy
version). I could come up with more examples (no bluff :)) but these
should suffice. I thought hard on how one could suggest Rafi struggled
with low notes. I finally got an answer. If you're referring to Rafi's
songs post 1972 - then I may agree some examples (like Dard E Dil).
However, consider that by mid 70s Rafi's health was very poor. As an
example, he often had colds and refused to cancel because he
benevolently kept in mind that musicians wouldn't get the day's pay if
recording was cancelled. In conclusion, <1972 Rafi is outstanding in
low scale.
Mughal E Azam: The "screaming" was *by design* and it suited the scene
perfectly. If it was just for singing a high song - there'd be no need
to compose the song at that outrageous height (much beyond what any
other singer would attempt). Naushad was known as a perfectionist and
musical purist. Incidentally, he loved the music of Anil Biswas. We're
talking about the same film where Naushad, for the sake of perfection,
insisted on Bade Ghulam Ali (rs 25,000 / song) and a 100 member chorus
for Ae Mohabbat Zindabad. You always had to sing a song *exactly* as
he wanted. Surely Naushad was aware of and wanted this "screaming"
effect that he tailored for Rafi to render and fit the scene. The
fault, if any, lies in the composer not the singer. Sometimes the
singer or MD incorporate the scene into the music that will be played
on that scene. This is an *option* that film music composers have.
Some music purists will disapprove of it - more liberal fans like me
will applaud. Who will deny that Rafi deliberately cracking his voice
in last stanza of Din Dhal Jaye was brilliant for the scene in Guide?
When I listen to that song, I can just picture Dev Anand singing it in
utter despair. Some people in RMIM archives, much to my amusement,
have held Tasveer Teri Dil Mein as a "weapon" against Rafi to promote
their choice singer. It was no accident that Salil opted for Rafi to
render the exact pitch & speed that he did on this Dev Anand song.
Rafi on classical: I can't comment on classical music because I don't
know much about it. However, I did *love* Madhuban Mein Radkhika from
Kohinoor. "Classical songs in films" is an NOT a subset of "classical
songs". They are two separate *arts* that must be *evaluated
separately*. One art demands a filmy voice AND classical virtuosity.
The other demands *greater* classical virtuosity. Singing a classical
song and matching it to the actor is an art in itself. Based on the
performances of Madhuban Mein Radhika and "Man Tadpat Hari Darshan" -
I can't expect such a singer to "flounder" in "classical songs in
films".
Rafi on "godhood":
Anil Biswas thought Rafi was a non-singer. Only a few days ago (after
pleasant discussions with Sathya Sekar who I will send another reply)
- do I somewhat understand where Anil Biswas is coming from. Anil
Biswas is interested only in Anil Biswas music (and that's OK!). So
I'm not surprised that when asked to rate Lata's top 10 songs in her
entire career, Anil Biswas listed 10 of his compositions (and they
were indeed outstanding and excellent candidates for top 10). So if
someone only cares for Anil Biswas or C Ramchandra and music from late
40s and 50s - then of course he'll consider Lata closest to God.
However, this is a very, narrowed spectrum. I look at (and enjoy) the
*entire spectrum*: all MDs, eras, and **genres**. In that regard, (my
opinion only): Rafi was peerless.
Lata's trademark was her angelic voice & technical prowess. Asha'
trademark was her versatility and technical prowess. Rafi's trademark
was his angelic voice, technical prowess (RD Burman called him the
epitome of perfection), and versatility. He was all in one. If Lata
didn't suite OP Nayyar's music (good choice on Asha for Ude Ude
Zulfein Teri) or was too puritan to sing "Chotisi Mulaqat Pyar
Bangayee" - then Rafi suited them perfect. Of course, someone may not
care for these songs but I love them just as much as "Yeh Mera Prem
Patra". If Lata had an sweet voice in "Zindagi Bhar Nahin Bhoolenge"
than Rafi was right there with his angelic voice. This is why Rafi was
closest to Godhood :)
I'm only sharing this thought with you for my own enjoyment. Of
course this point can easily result 20 threads and no agreement among
fans.
Finally, if I had known that Raju Bharatan started this whole mess, I
wouldn't have created this thread. I was under the impression that
both Salil & Lata indicated in two separate interviews to reliable
reporters. I didn't realize that Raju Bharatan provided the "quotes"
of Salil & Lata and the "specific details". It is one thing to say
that something was amiss at the recording (as Lata would do) it is
another for RB to provide the embellished details imself. Like many
music lovers, I think he's out there to make a couple of bucks by
embellishing stories and sparking controversy. Some music fans have
the disadvantage of having been influenced by the media (you can't
always help it). Just go by your ears! This is an advantage for new
listeners!
UVR
Sorry to interject into all this scholarly discussion, but I must
admit that I don't get all this 'mandra ma' and 'ati-taar whatever'
"ability" stuff. All of the 'sthaayis' are relative to the base 'sa'
chosen by the singer. Choose one that's fairly low, and you
can hit many more 'ati-taar' sthaayi notes than you would at
a higher 'sa'. Choose one that's relatively high, and you can
sound more robust than everybody else in the mandra or even
the anu-mandra sthaayis. Isn't this so?
I think a useful academic measure of a vocalist's range is the
total 'distance' between the lowest and highest notes s/he
can produce (with or without the use of falsetto, etc) and still
sound robust. This is independent of which 'sa' is used.
To get at this 'distance' for film singers, one may need to sample
many different songs to get sufficient data. Per my listening
experience (much less considerable than some of the other
RMIMers', but also much more varied than some others') I think
I think Lata's range was wider than Rafi's. Asha's range was
possibly wider than Lata's (IMO)!
-UVR.
Manish Kumar
I agree with you on personal choice & subjectivity - especially at
this level of scrutiny.
>listen to songs like shambho sun lo meri pukaar,
>chale bhi aao, aaja bhanwar and many others sung
> at an inhumanely high pitch, with perfection and ease.
These are missing from my large collection. I will acquire them
shortly and then listen.
> male voices being heavier are always an asset at high
> pitch
Exactly right! I see that in this song! :)
> i dont agree with you when you say rafi sahab is not screaming (thus,
> struggling) in jane kya dhoondti rehti hain, aye mohabbat zindabad, o
> duniya ke rakhwale(only the finale....the rest of the song is
> *flawless*), tu shokh kali main mast pawan along with some others.
Please see remark on Ae Mohabbat Zindabad in my second reply to
Chetan. As for O Duniya Ke Rakhwale, here's the live version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjNJjFminCs
*Maybe* for the *second half of the last "Rakhwale"* Rafi Sahab sounds
challenged but I'm being very, unfairly, picky in an attempt to be
neutral. Who could even go near that range! He renders the "Rakhwale"
like a tuning fork! This too in the 70s when Rafi was past his prime.
Now listen to the live version in the Live Round the World (mid to
late 70s)
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/compilations/s/artist.933/
He is utterly flawless in this rendition. This is probably the second
most rendered song by Rafi Sahab (after Baharon Phool Barsao). So yes,
of course he'd have perfected it after many renditions - I'm aware of
that. However, he still exhibits his range. Listening to these songs,
I cannot agree with you that Rafi lost some of his range by 1968.
>my point being that rafi sahab sounded good in
>a particular range. like every other singer
> on earth, he too had a frequency (the range
>within which he sounded > good).
As pancham said, "rafi sahab ka range to kamaal". You're right that he
sounded good in a particular range - but that was the widest range of
all male singers.
>for me, that range was narrower for rafi sahab than for lata ji.
too subjective.
> as for the song in question here...lata from no angle is 'struggling'
> in the entire song first of all.
After having carefully listened to that song 10+ times - I disagree :)
> and those 18 retakes were done not
> because rafi was not able to hit those high notes, but because rafi
> was not able to hit the RIGHT note.
Very interesting! What is your source? I hope it isn't from Raju
Bharatan providing the "quotes". Please do tell.
>as for the fact "that lata *still*
> sounded average even in the final take of the song" did it ever
> strike
> you it could be because of the fact that she had grown tired of
> singing the same thing 18 times. considering the fact that her part
> was more difficult than the co-singer's, it would have been hell lot
> of vocal exercise for her. she had, according to me, every right of
> getting angry.
Strongly disagree about Lata sounding average because she was tired of
18 retakes. Here's an anecdote you'll enjoy (you've probably heard
it):
From Sanjeev Kohli (son of Madan Mohan):
<I vividly remember attending a recording for the song Chhayee barkha
bahaar in Chirag. While Lataji was at the mike, my father said, "See
how I'm going to make her sing chhayee." The word actually spreads
itself out when she sing it.
It was a very tough song to put together. The musicians were making a
lot of mistakes. Lata ji had to sing it about 15 times to get it right
in one take. I remember asking her if she was exhausted.
She said, "What to do? Most of my bibgest hits have been sung at my
tired worst". >
That last line directly contradicts your conjecture. Lata was a
machine. Nevertheless, I know you were just throwing it out. I just
wanted to share that story :)
>and forgive me (i feel terrible having to say this
> here) this song was nothing but a repeat of kuhu kuhu bole
> koyaliya....where again lata got the better of the greatest male
> singer that we ever had (no wordplay intended!)
I just listened to it. Excellent song. What sweet singing by Lata? I
think because I'm a guy I just have a softer spot for Lata's sweet,
cute, feminine voice. Yes, I easily prefer Lata in this one. She is
OUTSTANDING. Is there a story behind this song? If you don't mind,
please share it or send me offline. Thanks.
>for lata the climb was done within one single
>word...nainon...while rafi took two words
>(jahan hain) to do the same
On this point I have a question for you: what is your opinion of the
way Rafi sings "mitwaaa" in "Chahoonga Tujhe Saanj Aur Savere"? He
makes quite a climb in that single word! :)
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Absulutely! It sounds higher because the scale of the song is high (d#
> lost a lot of his range. As for the highest note....it could be R',
> not more than that.....I'll have to listen to it again and tell you
> more about the exact scale and the highest note of the song the next
> time.
Thanks.
> I'm a singer myself and from experience I can tell that holding a
> *single* high note at that scale for 4-5 seconds is tougher than
> climbing or descending;
I am no singer but I find this hard to believe. In a recet classical
music discussion, people were laughing heartily at a singer who takes
what is pejoratively referred to as a ek-sur-ki-taan. With a little
bit of (classical) training this should be trivial.
> You are correct when you say that 'kal tere jalwe paraye bhi honge' is
> the essentially same note, but not when you say its 'ameturish'
I was referring to the composition - no fault of Rafi's. But I
maintain that the tune is amateurish. The rendition does full
justification to the ordinary tune.
> Her bottom range is exceptional, no doubts about that. But bottom
> range can *still* be developed through 'riaz' (vocal drills).
This point is debatable. Some say the exact reverse. Most likely, a
singer is gifted with a potential range that is extremely hard if not
impossible to break. Riyaz can improve the authority with which the
extremes of the range can be achieved. Singers, especially males, can
cheat up top with falsetto singing, but it is nearly impossible to
cheat down below.
> True that I havnt heard a more powerful voice below madra Ma,
Precisely!
> and that she becomes piercingly shrill in the top octave, but the very
> fact that *only* she can sing it *makes* me like it!
She is not the only one. Many male singers sing up top. Her hubby does
(gawd!). BGAK used to routinely sing up to S''. His follower Ajoy C
also does (though his voice turns ugly up there). As an aside Ajoy C
also has a good bottom range. I once heard him go to/near ati-mandra
Pa!
You may be right in thinking she is the only one who does it so
rampantly. And all the power to you if you enjoy such ear-piercing
stuff :)
C
Chetan Vinchhi
<sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > and that she becomes piercingly shrill in the top octave, but the very
> > fact that *only* she can sing it *makes* me like it!
>
> Which brings to mind a well-known joke: "Why does a dog...? Because it
> can."
:) :)
But the same is true of her bottom work as well which I like
immensely. So to counterbalance your joke, a famous mountaineer
(forgot the name) was once asked why he climbed Mt.Everest and he
replied "Because it was there" :)
> Her voice and technique seem on the whole robust enough to
> *completely* eliminate this. She seems, however, even in the slower
> passages, to get bored and/or distracted at times which leads to
> lapses The hyperspeed stuff is very hit-or-miss. I liked her very
> early albums, but have come away dissatisfied from most of what she's
> recorded since then.
This is getting into RMIC range, but I agree with your assessment for
the most part, except I don't enjoy even her early fast-fast taans any
more, with due note that they are better than their younger siblings.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Rafi handles the high pitches better
> than Lata. I will agree to disagree with any.
If a female singer (lower key - read the archives :) ) is made to sing
at typical male keys, she is at a major handicap. Rafi handling a
given high note better should be way above par for the course.
> Subjectivity has its limits. Suppose my mother thinks I'm a better
> singer than Rafi...:) Nevertheless, fans will never unanimously agree
> on this matter.
Ahhh, you need to visit KCP :) :) Or maybe he will come to meet you :)
> "Tasveer teri dil mein" is a tough song because you *suddenly* go
> *high* and sing *fast*. Dil Ke Jharoke Mein has *more* of the same
> extreme elements: it is much higher and just as fast hence more
> difficult.
I think tasveer is much harder than dil ke jharokhe me.n. But singers
don't seem to concur with the opinion. But I still refuse to budge :)
I have given my reasons in another post.
> Strongly disagree with you about Rafi on low scale. Rafi maintains a
> crisp, velvet smooth voice in the National Award Winning song "Tumse
> Kahoon Ek Baat Parson Se" that Madan Mohan composed.
That is a good song, but uses a husky whispering kind of voice
production. While that may be appropriate for the song itself (yes, it
sounds nice), it still betrays discomfort with the lower notes.
> Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon (one of KA's personal favorites)
Kishori Amonkar's? Really? :) :)
Haven't heard this one (or can't recall)
> Din Dhal Jaye
Where are the low notes in this?
> Hum Bekhudi Mein
Or in this? True both of them go down compared to your average Shammi
Kapoor type of number, but not really low.
> and one of my
> favorite songs of all time "Main Gaoon Tum So Jaao Na" (happy
> version).
I can't stand this song. But also don't recall any significant low
work.
> I finally got an answer. If you're referring to Rafi's
> songs post 1972 - then I may agree some examples (like Dard E Dil).
This Karz number is a good example, but I was not thinking of the 70s
at all.
> Mughal E Azam: ...The
> fault, if any, lies in the composer not the singer.
I am not sure about this, but I concede the possibility Naushad wanted
to make Rafi scream so he stretched him beyond his natural
capabilities.
> However, I did *love* Madhuban Mein Radkhika from
> Kohinoor.
Fair enough but he did not do the hardest part of this song. He holds
it together as a song fairly well but misses the essence of Hameer.
You can of course lay the blame at Naushad's doorstep.
> "Classical songs in films" is an NOT a subset of "classical
> songs". They are two separate *arts* that must be *evaluated
> separately*. One art demands a filmy voice AND classical virtuosity.
The last one is where I find Rafi lacking. But this has already been
discussed multiple times here. To hear how badly Rafi can do in this
genre, listen to "baaT chalat na_ii chunarii ra.ng Daarii" from Rani
Rupmati, a duet with Krishnarao Chonkar.
(I am running out of steam - more on godhood some other time :) )
C
Manish Wadhane
> Mughal E Azam: The "screaming" was *by design* and it suited the scene
> perfectly. If it was just for singing a high song - there'd be no need
> to compose the song at that outrageous height (much beyond what any
> other singer would attempt).
I concur with Manish Kumar on this. And in fact, the reasoning applies
to most of the songs where Rafi saab went to ridiculously high notes.
And ofcourse, there was no one better than Rafi (atleast in male
singers) to execute it.
I don't understand why some people object to Rafi's "supposed"
screaming! It is simple, when you are required to scream, you HAVE to
scream. And in Mughal E Azam, the protagonist is singing amongst a
thousand noisy people. He has to scream to get his message across.
Guys, don't you find Rafi's high notes inspiring?
> and one of my
> favorite songs of all time "Main Gaoon Tum So Jaao Na" (happy
> version).
:-) Very rarely do I come across someone who shares my feelings on
this song. Here, I would say the picturization was equally beautiful.
Shammi Kapoor and Rafi at their best caring avtaar.
- Manish
On Apr 15, 1:25 am, Manish Kumar <mkum...@gmail.com> wrote:
Manish Wadhane
>
> Kishori Amonkar's? Really? :) :)
> Haven't heard this one (or can't recall)
It is from Jab Jab Phool Khile. Nice song again.
> > and one of my
> > favorite songs of all time "Main Gaoon Tum So Jaao Na" (happy
> > version).
>
> I can't stand this song. But also don't recall any significant low
> work.
Don't know about the low part, but Chetan sir, show me a more
reassuring and tender lullaby sung by a male singer.
-Manish
Shalini Razdan
>
> > To get at this 'distance' for film singers, one may need to sample
> > many different songs to get sufficient data. Per my listening
> > experience (much less considerable than some of the other
> > RMIMers', but also much more varied than some others') I think
> > I think Lata's range was wider than Rafi's. Asha's range was
> > possibly wider than Lata's (IMO)!
>
> Lata's range wider than Rafi...certainly! But Asha's range wider than
> Lata's!! You must be joking!
I don't get the joke. Asha having a wider range than Lata is well
within the realm of possible...probable even, some would argue.
One thing that people often fail to
> notice about
> Asha's singing that she more often than not sings in a false/head
> voice!
What?!! Please explain and provide examples - should be easy since
you claim she sings this way "more often than not."
One excellent example to compare their respective ranges is
> 'Hum Raamchandra Ki Chandrakala...' where she's sounding like a mice
> (ouch!!) next to Lata ji's full throated solid high pitch.
If you're referring to the duet from 'Sampoorna Ramayan', I find both
sisters unbearbly shrieky, but Lata clearly leads the shrill charge.
Asha did sound very squeaky (IMO) in the early years, but by the
early 60s her voice had matured into a very warm, full-throated
sound. Lata, on the other hand, never really shed the "little girl"
voice (IMHO).
Shalini
UVR
> On Apr 15, 1:30 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > total 'distance' between the lowest and highest notes s/he
> > can produce (with or without the use of falsetto, etc) and still
> > sound robust. This is independent of which 'sa' is used.
>
> she can hit BOTH an ati-mandra ni AND an ati-taar Pa in FULL-THROATED
> voice!
Who "she"? Lata or Parveen Sultana? If Lata, present evidence,
please (NOTE: I'm not saying she doesn't have this kind of range.
I'm just asking to see which song(s) you are using to determine
her range). I have not heard a single film song that goes into
the "ati-taar" range or to the "anu-mandra" range of any singer --
not just of Lata, but of ANY singer, period. (This doesn't mean
such songs don't exist -- just that I haven't come across them,
so I'm looking towards you to possibly find out what those songs
are.)
BTW, just to make sure I know we're using the same terminology,
ati-taar = TWO octaves above base SA and anu-mandra = TWO
octaves below base SA.
For the record, I think one of the songs Lata demonstrated a
superb range in is her "aajaa bha.Nwar" follow-on to Manna
Dey's "u.D jaa bha.Nwar" from Rani Roopmati (SNTripathi).
In one swell foop, she demonstrates her amazing vocal skills
and shows how poor a match Manna Dey's voice was to hers!
The perfectness with which she hits the taar pa (of that octave,
which is already extremely high, and presumably half an octave
higher than her 'comfort' SA!)
> > To get at this 'distance' for film singers, one may need to sample
> > many different songs to get sufficient data. Per my listening
> > experience (much less considerable than some of the other
> > RMIMers', but also much more varied than some others') I think
> > I think Lata's range was wider than Rafi's. Asha's range was
> > possibly wider than Lata's (IMO)!
>
> Lata's range wider than Rafi...certainly! But Asha's range wider than
> Lata's!! You must be joking!
I'm happy you had a few moments of mirth due to me,
but I wasn't joking at all! I think the relative width of
Asha's range versus Lata's is a topic deserving research.
This sort of hand-waving dismissal is not conducive to
any kind of meaningful research on this topic.
> One thing that people often fail to notice about
> Asha's singing that she more often than not sings in a false/head
> voice! One excellent example to compare their respective ranges is
> 'Hum Raamchandra Ki Chandrakala...' where she's sounding like a mice
> (ouch!!) next to Lata ji's full throated solid high pitch. Though it
> isnt that she always sing in a false voice. 'Piya tu ab to aaja',
> 'Raat akeli hai...' are good examples of high-pitched-full-throated
> Asha songs...
>
Hmm, I see. Have you heard "(o) meri jaaN maiN ne kahaa"
(Asha-RDBurman)? Full throated or not?
IMO, almost everyone uses 'head' voice (desi lingo for
falsetto) as they reach the higher notes, especially those
that fall just outside the reach of their normal voice. It's the
ease with which a singer can slide in and out of the 'head'
voice and how imperceptible the singer can make said slide
to a casual listener is what makes for the difference
between an average singer and one who has achieved
real voice control. IMO, Asha does this beautifully in
'raat akeli hai', and even more beautifully in "meri jaaN
maiN ne kahaa". I have not honestly heard a Lata song
that can be compared to the latter (NOTE: this does not
mean Lata does not surely have that skill, it just means
I have not heard her display it).
-UVR.
Shalini
"UVR" <u...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2ee6aecd-9202-4c0a-915a-
> IMO, almost everyone uses 'head' voice (desi lingo for
> falsetto) as they reach the higher notes, especially those
> that fall just outside the reach of their normal voice. It's the
> ease with which a singer can slide in and out of the 'head'
> voice and how imperceptible the singer can make said slide
> to a casual listener is what makes for the difference
> between an average singer and one who has achieved
> real voice control. IMO, Asha does this beautifully in
> 'raat akeli hai', and even more beautifully in "meri jaaN
> maiN ne kahaa". I have not honestly heard a Lata song
> that can be compared to the latter (NOTE: this does not
> mean Lata does not surely have that skill, it just means
> I have not heard her display it).
>
I still don't quite get this head voice thing, but would "yeh bansi kya
gaaye" from Parakh and/or "woh ek nigah kya mili" from Half-Ticket qualify
as examples of Lata sliding in and out of voices/notes?
Shalini
> -UVR.
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> > > and one of my
> > > favorite songs of all time "Main Gaoon Tum So Jaao Na" (happy
> > > version).
>
> > I can't stand this song. But also don't recall any significant low
> > work.
>
> Don't know about the low part, but Chetan sir, show me a more
> reassuring and tender lullaby sung by a male singer.
Well, when Rafi says (not sings) "so jaa_o naa" I feel all funny in
the stomach. A total put-off. I also don't like the way each gaa_uu.N
is enunciated. YMMV.
Male lullabies are harder to come by in general. Here are some with
male participation that I like (far) more than the Brahmachari
atrocity. Again, YMMV.
- so jaa raajakumaarii (KLS)
- dhiire se aa jaa rii (duet Chitalkar-Lata)
- dhiire dhiire aa re baadal (duet Arun Kumar - Amirbai)
- akhiyo.n me.n miiThe miiThe (KK. The rest of the song is good, but
not as good as the mukha.Daa - just awesome!)
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> (here, I'd
> like to mention I have a very strong feeling that Ustad Dilshad Khan
> sings in a head voice/falsetto....I'm not fond of him anyways!)
Yes, his singing is ugly ("gawd"!).
> BGAK had a 3 octave range from mandra Sa to ati-taar Sa. He couldnt
> sing beyond.
Most of his material is from his later days, in fact, the commercial
stuff and longer recordings are his post-stroke phase. I am not sure
what he was capable of in his prime. Krishnarao Shankar Pandit used to
do 3 octaves in *his* old age as well. And he would refer to some old
Gwalior masters (Rahimat Khan?) effortlessly singing across 3.5
octaves.
C
ps - do you have a name? :)
UVR
IF the ability to put a child actually to sleep is a good
enough measure of a lullaby, then Talat's "so jaa tu
mere raajdulaare so jaa" (Jawaab) is a success in my
house. And it has worked on more than one child.
-UVR.
PS: Of course, the singer in these cases has been
Yours Truly, not Talat himself, so you could say the
kids in question were merely "bored to sleep". I
would have no way of disproving such a proposition.
Manish Wadhane
> the stomach. A total put-off. I also don't like the way each gaa_uu.N
> is enunciated. YMMV.
>
> Male lullabies are harder to come by in general. Here are some with
> male participation that I like (far) more than the Brahmachari
> atrocity. Again, YMMV.
>
> - so jaa raajakumaarii (KLS)
> - dhiire se aa jaa rii (duet Chitalkar-Lata)
> - dhiire dhiire aa re baadal (duet Arun Kumar - Amirbai)
> - akhiyo.n me.n miiThe miiThe (KK. The rest of the song is good, but
> not as good as the mukha.Daa - just awesome!)
Amongst the one you have listed, I confess (and it's my misfortune)
that I have heard mimics of "so jaa raajakumaarii" more often than the
original.
Yes, the second song, "dhiire se aa jaa rii" is THE numero uno (I mean
when it is a lullaby, it is "dhiire se aa jaa rii" ), and is
definitely much more effective in putting one off to sleep (in the
intended way :-)) than the Brahmachari song. But, again, here, I am
talking about the Lata version, which far outlasts the CR version in
memory (IMO), so much so that one has to remind oneself that there is
a CR-Lata version of the song too. And, as far as the video goes, the
Brahmachari song soars much higher than the Albela song. So, as far as
the male lullaby goes, it is the Brahmachari song for me.
I liked the 3rd song from Kismat, the male part that is.
I can't place the 4th song (KK) in your list. My Kishore favourite
would be "Aa ri aaja" from Kunwara Baap.
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Amongst the one you have listed, I confess (and it's my misfortune)
> that I have heard mimics of "so jaa raajakumaarii" more often than the
> original.
But that should not take anything away from the original. I like it a
lot. And Saigal fathoms the depths of vocal range Rafi cannot even
dream of :) So, for vocal range competitions among Hindi film singers
I would pit him as one of the candidates. In a single song (ruum jhuum
ruum jhuum chaal tihaarii from Tansen) he covers 2 full octaves. Oh,
and by the way, Kishore might also have a range comparable to if not
greater than Rafi's (read RMIM archives, as usual :) ). So the claim
of Rafi having the largest range among male singers is dubious. He is
a contender but not an outright winner.
> I can't place the 4th song (KK) in your list. My Kishore favourite
> would be "Aa ri aaja" from Kunwara Baap.
That is nice too (add to the list!). The song I am referring to is
from Nauker (music by RDB). It is there on musicindaonline. Search for
Nauker. The song is listed as chaa.Ndanii re jhuum, which is the
refrain.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> That is nice too (add to the list!). The song I am referring to is
> from Nauker (music by RDB). It is there on musicindaonline. Search for
> Nauker. The song is listed as chaa.Ndanii re jhuum, which is the
> refrain.
The song title is actually "akhiyo.n me.n chhoTe chhoTe sapane...".
Sorry for the confusion! I think miiThe miiThe sapane sounds equally
nice :)
C
Manish Wadhane
> That is nice too (add to the list!). The song I am referring to is
> from Nauker (music by RDB). It is there on musicindaonline. Search for
> Nauker. The song is listed as chaa.Ndanii re jhuum, which is the
> refrain.
Heard that. Good song. And yes, the way he sings "chaandani re
jhuum..." is awesome. Thanks for the reference. Should be useful to me
in practical life like UVR :-) .
On Apr 16, 12:46 pm, Chetan Vinchhi <vinc...@gmail.com> wrote:
dn.usenet
<cooldud...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> at the end of the song. There is a marathi song with
> probably the highest note ever by Asha ji called Tarun
> aahe ratra ajuni...
> She considers this song as the toughest sung by her!
>
Don't take such claims very seriously because the singers
are not always consistent, nor necessarily very serious, when
making such claims. I don't think it is a particularly tough
song to sing (for Asha). One more of the various songs
dubbed by Asha as 'her toughest ever song' is from
a Marathi film whose name I forget. It should be from
early 1960s and is one of the rare instances where
lyricist P Savlaram's songs have been tuned by Hridaynath.
(A huge majority of P Savlaram's songs is/are composed
by Vasant Prabhu.) The film has a playful song in which,
IIRC, a younger sister is playfully teasing her elder sister
about her upcoming marriage. I heard both these (one
tough and one light + playful) songs recently for the first
time. The lighter song is very nice. The 'tough' song, judging
by just one listen, is neither very tough nor very good.
Since P Savlaram and Hridaynath have not worked
together for very many films, the identity of these songs
should not be difficult to figure out.
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Agree on most of the post but wouldnt call the Brahmachari song an
> 'atrocity!' It was one of his *bad* performances. Atrocity is a word
> set aside for songs like 'baat chalat....' ;-)) what say??!!
LOL! Agreed, not as bad as baaT chalat :)
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Lata's comfort Sa is Kali 1 (C#4)
Slightly tangential, but I would have thought Lata's comfort Sa to be
lower (kaali-1 is terribly high for a female!). Maybe kaali-5 or a
shade above that. It is a different matter that, for various reasons,
she is almost invariably made to sing in kaali-1 or above!
C
Shalini Razdan
> On Apr 15, 10:12 pm, Shalini Razdan <shaliniraz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 10:44 am, cooldudesaks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 1:30 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > To get at this 'distance' for film singers, one may need to sample
> > > > many different songs to get sufficient data. Per my listening
> > > > experience (much less considerable than some of the other
> > > > RMIMers', but also much more varied than some others') I think
> > > > I think Lata's range was wider than Rafi's. Asha's range was
> > > > possibly wider than Lata's (IMO)!
>
> > > Lata's range wider than Rafi...certainly! But Asha's range wider than
> > > Lata's!! You must be joking!
>
> > I don't get the joke. Asha having a wider range than Lata is well
> > within the realm of possible...probable even, some would argue.
>
> By range if you mean range of compositions/songs sung by her, then
> there is scope for argument. But if you mean vocal range, then Asha
> herself had this to say about the sister...."Very few singers have the
> range that she has in her voice."
>
You write with such refreshing enthusiasm that I feel a tad churlish
for pointing out that your post is full of opportunistic
rationalizations.:-) Ex. Asha employs falsetto for high notes, but
Lata's "naturally thin" voice just makes it "sound" like she's singing
in a false voice. IMO, while the two sisters have very different
singing styles their voices (range, texture, etc) aren't that
different. I do think Asha may have a wider vocal range than Lata but
even then, the difference is almost trivial and doesn't occur at the
top of the scale but at the bottom.
One gentle suggestion for future discussions - don't resort to "expert
testimony" (eg. above Asha quote) to prove your point; make you own
arguments. You'll be both, taken more seriously and more
persuasive.:-)
cheers,
Shalini
UVR
The word Atrocity should be reserved for songs like Lata's "jiya jale"
or "mere Khwaabon mein jo aaye", or Asha's "tanha tanha" which
feature off-key and bad singing from the lead singer.
Rafi cuts a sorry figure in "baaT chalat", but it's because he's not
equal to that kind of a challenge in terms of vocal calisthenics. But
he also miss notes? I think not.
For the record, I have never liked "maiN gaaooN tum so jaao".
But then I haven't ever liked "aap ki nazron ne samjha" either.
-UVR.
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Kaali-1 (C#) terribly high?! Are you sure?
For a classical singer, yes. I know of only one female classical
singer who insists on singing in that scale and, well, she shouldn't
IMO. I have far more faith in the classical approach to assigning
comfort ranges than on filmy composers who arbitrarily make Lata sing
in Rafi's pitch and then make her climb all the way to the top. The
old RMIM threads I mentioned earlier talked about these issues.
> *Almost* all my singer friends (females) sing from that scale!
Are they classical singers? I am guessing not. It is true that light
genres tend to be sung at higher scales. Classical tradition has
partially finessed this issue by allowing "semi-classical" pieces to
be sung from Madhyam.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Do we have recordings of the pandit? or the singer from Gwalior gharana?
KRSP recordings should be around. Try searching esnips or one of these
file sharing sites.
> This reminds me of another such singer from the late 19th
> century from the Lucknow gharana (I'm forgetting his name) who could
> sing all the notes of the ati-taar saptak in full-throated voice! No
> audio recordings are available though.
What is the Lucknow gharana? I thought this referred to Begum Akhtar's
thumri presentation style (which is essentially an amalgam of the
Purab and Punjab angs with a genrous helping of the Begum's own
original aesthetic sense) or a tabla baaj. I know of no classical
vocal gharana by that name. Do enlighten!
> Yes sir ji, I do have a name. Its Saksham.
Good to know your name, Saksham. You don't need to add ji or any other
appellate while addressing me.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Rafi cuts a sorry figure in "baaT chalat", but it's because he's not
> equal to that kind of a challenge in terms of vocal calisthenics. But
> he also miss notes? I think not.
Talking of calisthenics, Rafi sounds like he his clumsily falling down
a flight of stairs in that song. I think that is worse that an
occassional missed note (aside: I don't know if he missed notes in
this song, but he might have).
> For the record, I have never liked "maiN gaaooN tum so jaao".
> But then I haven't ever liked "aap ki nazron ne samjha" either.
Fair enough, I have already conceded that atrocity is a strong term.
FWIW, I find the Brahmachari song unlistenable. But I can listen to
the Anpadh song and actually like some aspects of it.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> KRSP recordings should be around. Try searching esnips or one of these
> file sharing sites.
Try this Jaijaiwanti:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/dd2ca70a-e0b9-4859-b3f7-643c3c378ef5/Raag-Jaijaivanti
or this Sohni:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/64c211c9-c4e4-4162-9988-c2b14dfb85c6/Raag-Sohini
Rahimat Khan had made a few recordings (short 2.5 min pieces) a year
or two before his death circa 1920. You might be able to locate an mp3
online.
(Apologies to RMIMer since this is getting seriously into RMIC range!)
C
arm...@gmail.com
> On Apr 15, 1:25 am, Manish Kumar <mkum...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Rafi handles the high pitches better
> > than Lata. I will agree to disagree with any.
>
> If a female singer (lower key - read the archives :) ) is made to sing
> at typical male keys, she is at a major handicap. Rafi handling a
> given high note better should be way above par for the course.
>
> > Subjectivity has its limits. Suppose my mother thinks I'm a better
> > singer than Rafi...:) Nevertheless, fans will never unanimously agree
> > on this matter.
>
> Ahhh, you need to visit KCP :) :) Or maybe he will come to meet you :)
>
> > "Tasveer teri dil mein" is a tough song because you *suddenly* go
> > *high* and sing *fast*. Dil Ke Jharoke Mein has *more* of the same
> > extreme elements: it is much higher and just as fast hence more
> > difficult.
>
> I think tasveer is much harder than dil ke jharokhe me.n. But singers
> don't seem to concur with the opinion. But I still refuse to budge :)
> I have given my reasons in another post.
If you meant me, no, I handily agree that "Tasveer Teri" is harder.
> > Strongly disagree with you about Rafi on low scale. Rafi maintains a
> > crisp, velvet smooth voice in the National Award Winning song "Tumse
> > Kahoon Ek Baat Parson Se" that Madan Mohan composed.
>
> That is a good song, but uses a husky whispering kind of voice
> production. While that may be appropriate for the song itself (yes, it
> sounds nice), it still betrays discomfort with the lower notes.
Agree about the voice production and that it sounds nice, but not that
*it* (in this song) betrays the discomfort you speak of (other
examples are there). I don't know that a singer more comfortable with
the lows would necessarily have voiced this portion of the song any
differently given the situation.
>
> > Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon (one of KA's personal favorites)
>
> Kishori Amonkar's? Really? :) :)
> Haven't heard this one (or can't recall)
C'mon, you know who KA is. :-)
> > and one of my
> > favorite songs of all time "Main Gaoon Tum So Jaao Na" (happy
> > version).
>
> I can't stand this song. But also don't recall any significant low
> work.
The slow "ad-lib" version is nice, but I don't like the "fast" version
either.
> The last one is where I find Rafi lacking. But this has already been
> discussed multiple times here. To hear how badly Rafi can do in this
> genre, listen to "baaT chalat na_ii chunarii ra.ng Daarii" from Rani
> Rupmati, a duet with Krishnarao Chonkar.
Alas, yes, Rafi sounds very ordinary up against KC.
Sanjeev
arm...@gmail.com
> On Apr 15, 7:38 pm, Manish Wadhane <mani...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > and one of my
> > > > favorite songs of all time "Main Gaoon Tum So Jaao Na" (happy
> > > > version).
>
> > > I can't stand this song. But also don't recall any significant low
> > > work.
>
> > Don't know about the low part, but Chetan sir, show me a more
> > reassuring and tender lullaby sung by a male singer.
>
> Well, when Rafi says (not sings) "so jaa_o naa" I feel all funny in
> the stomach. A total put-off. I also don't like the way each gaa_uu.N
> is enunciated. YMMV.
Ha - agree. I believe he does not do this in the sad/slow version,
which is part of why I like it.
>
> Male lullabies are harder to come by in general. Here are some with
> male participation that I like (far) more than the Brahmachari
> atrocity. Again, YMMV.
I often wonder what a young Kishore Kumar or a well-controlled Rafi
(read: under the baton of someone besides SJ or Naushad, preferably
someone like an SDB) would have done with a nice lori. We missed out
for sure there.
Sanjeev
Archisman Mozumder
>
> I often wonder what a young Kishore Kumar or a well-controlled Rafi
> (read: under the baton of someone besides SJ or Naushad, preferably
> someone like an SDB) would have done with a nice lori. We missed out
> for sure there.
>
> Sanjeev
Both would have been brilliant. Like UV Ravindra (but unlike his
lovely singing skills), I have used one of Kishore Kumar's soft songs
as a lullaby to put my son to sleep. The results were very good. The
song in question is 'aa chal ke tujhe'.
For another song of Kishore, I did not have the courage to render it
myself, but used to play the cassette to get good results. The song is
'rasta dekhe teraa' from Humshakal (early 70-s). A lovely RD-Kishore
end-result.
A Rafi-song that has also been used by me as a lullaby with great
results is 'apni to har aah ek toofaan hai'. That magical SD-Rafi
combination from Kala Bazaar.
This has been a fascinating thread. Thanks to all the participants.
I personally feel that Asha-tai is more comfortable in negotiating
high pitches than her elder sibling. Especially during a period
between 1960-70 when, perhaps, both were simultaneously not
handicapped by the ravages of time.
That said, Lata-bai's utter sweetness in the normal scales just have
no peer. Just goes on to show that in the range of the E-M spectrum,
the small band of the 7 visible colours are the most beautiful. The
'ultra's & 'infras' do not matter. Hence Kishori-tai over Parveen-
begum, ANY day (without even getting into exposition & interpretation
of raaga-s that KA, on her day, is just peerless).
Regards-Archisman.
Arunabha
Cooldudesaks:
I am puzzled by the preoccupation with "range" as an objective
measure of greatness of singing. Leave alone light/popular forms of
music which have more elusive, and different, parameters and
definitions of greatness, even in classical music, from my exposure,
never has "the highest note one can hit"
come out to be the evaluator of greatness. So I am surprised by you, a
classical practitioner by your admission, dwelling on it to this
degree, and more so when it comes to evaluating a film singer's
performances. For what it's worth, my fingernail scratching on the
wall can produce a higher frequency (and not in a head-voice) than
Lata or Asha and perhaps as high as Parveen Sultana.
Offhand I may agree with you that early Lata more than early Asha
displayed full-throated singing. But I disagree with the natural
conclusion you make regarding the outcomes of their natural/preferred
styles. I don't really like any of the Vasant Desai songs for
Sampoorna Ramayan, their classical provenance notwithstanding I find
them to be very mannered compositions and not very interesting. I am
not sure what to make out of your claim that "tere khayaalo.n me.n
ham" being head-voice, but (even assuming it is) chor-galaa and all, I
do prefer that composition and its rendition more than Vasant Desai's
compositions for this particular film. I would like to ask Sanjeev and
Chetan re; their verdict on this one, because some years back, this
very song "tere khayaalo.n me.n" was
cited by the now-absconding Surajit in support of Asha's singing full-
throatedly in the 60s.
Lastly, even if we come to your (obviously) favourite Lata, it's not
songs that she has sung at high frequencies that have made her great
or worthy of respect. Her voice is actually very unpleasant beyond
taar rishabh. From my listening experience, I have come across few
examples of her singing in mandra spatak, and rarely significantly
low, if you want to quantify this "lowest note/highest-note" score
thing. It is her skilful negotiation within her range, her diction,
and many other factors that make her singing of film songs artistry.
Certainly not because she has hit taar-this or taar-that note (full-
throatedly). It seems strange to make this point to someone who is
from a classical domain. I am not too much in favour of borrowing and
quoting this composer's or that composer's comments in support of
Lata, principally because I don't think her singing is in any need of
validation. But if you really want to go that way, together with
BGAK's statements you should also unbiasedly figure into your
evaluation uncomplimentary statements about her singing from for
example Kishori Amonkar who has said something to the effect that
"Merely having good handwriting does not mean that what you write is
of good quality".
Lastly, just a suggestion: ending every statement with an exclamation,
making take-no-prisoners claims such as "Lata .. never ... bad
practice ..." or "Asha ...always....bad practice", "No song
of ...xyz ....", which require a single counter-example to invalidate,
tend to be very quickly (dis)regarded as fanatic gushing. I suggest
you take it easy a bit :)
It is pointless to agree or disagree with personal opinions, but I
will only disagree with one claim that you have made:
> Yes, I'm refering to that very song. Lata leads the shrill race,
> correct, but because of the texture of her voice (much thinner than
> Asha's). As far as singing goes, Lata is way better. Moreover, all the
If you concede that Lata is more shrill than Asha, and then give her a
waiver because of her "texture of her voice", this is as partisan and
gerrymandering as it gets. I might as well make the claim that Sharda
is in fact the way better singer than Lata but it's merely because of
her texture that we listeners perceive otherwise.
Lastly, don't be in a hurry to prove L > A. In the ten years plus I
have been on this group, no one thus far has come up with a convincing
proof of L > A. Leave alone proving the strict inequality , no one has
even come up with a proof of the weaker claim L >= A. Fermat's Last
Theorem took 200 years in the proving, and whenever a quick proof was
proffered in the intervening period, it was inevitably shown to be
flawed ;-) Enjoy the journey.
-- Arunabha
Manish Kumar
> I concur with Manish Kumar on this. And in fact, the reasoning applies
> to most of the songs where Rafi saab went to ridiculously high notes.
> And ofcourse, there was no one better than Rafi (atleast in male
> singers) to execute it.
> I don't understand why some people object to Rafi's "supposed"
> screaming! It is simple, when you are required to scream, you HAVE to
> scream. And in Mughal E Azam, the protagonist is singing amongst a
> thousand noisy people. He has to scream to get his message across.
> Guys, don't you find Rafi's high notes inspiring?
Thank you! Yes, Rafi was screaming, because he HAD to scream - as the
scene demanded and the composition demanded. Yes, I find the high
notes very inspiring! It is a protest among a crowd of thousands to
the mighty Akbar who tries to suppress love. Brilliant!
Manish Kumar
Give 4 songs of exemplary low note rendition from a male singer.
> > However, I did *love* Madhuban Mein Radkhika from
> > Kohinoor.
> Fair enough but he did not do the hardest part of this song. He holds
> it together as a song fairly well but misses the essence of Hameer.
> You can of course lay the blame at Naushad's doorstep.
That was just a playful expression - I wasn't blaming anyone. The
scene for this Kohinoor of a song is straightforward unlike that of Ae
Mohabbat Zindabad or Dil Ke Jharoke Mein. Dilip Kumar is just plainly
sitting and singing. Hence, if there is anything amiss, it is in
Rafi's rendition. As a fan of film music (including "classical music
in films"), the audience for whom this song was rendered for - you
know my opinion :)
> > "Classical songs in films" is an NOT a subset of "classical
> > songs". They are two separate *arts* that must be *evaluated
> > separately*. One art demands a filmy voice AND classical virtuosity.
> The last one is where I find Rafi lacking. But this has already been
> discussed multiple times here. To hear how badly Rafi can do in this
> genre, listen to "baaT chalat na_ii chunarii ra.ng Daarii" from Rani
> Rupmati, a duet with Krishnarao Chonkar.
On the song: Baat Chalat Na Chunari Rang
I listened to that song multiple times from my collection. Although I
too will agree that Rafi was not up to the task for this composition -
only for fun, I will share another thought: The other singer's voice
is sharp like blades of grass which suits the song well. Rafi does not
sharpen his voice enough for this song. I became curious and saw the
picturisation. It is Bharat Bhushan sitting with a Guru. Looks like a
student - guru scene. Considering this extra dimension, Rafi wasn't so
bad. He maintained IDENTITY OF VOICE for Bharat Bhushan - as any great
*playback singer* should do! Seeing the face & voice together - I
would think that the same character walked out of this movie years
later and into "Barsaat Ki Raat" to sing "Zindagi Bhar Nahin
Bhoolenge"! If Rafi sang like his co-singer and sharpened his voice -
there would be no identity to Bharat Bhushan or the student! Good
*playback* singing! I can't think of any other singer who could
maintain the identity in the scene AND sing it better. Perhaps the MD
and film maker were aware of this and got Rafi instead of another
Krishnarao as they could have (and did in the film for the Guru)! Of
course, I just shared this purely for fun thought - not to really sell
it. I too would have preferred another singer instead of Rafi do this
one. Besides, movie producers aren't always the best judges of music.
I hold the exact diametrically opposite view on Main Goan Tum So Jao
to the general opinion on this particular forum. Velvety, melodious
voice with perfect emotions. Beautiful lyrics & compositions. I
couldn't be more happier with it. Of course, each to his own. I
especially like that "so jao na" part when Rafi speaks it. It gives
personality to the actor! From the film perspective - that is
pleasant. From the perspective of music *purists* - it is not.
Different tastes. It should come as no surprise that Shammi Kapoor
improvised that line for Rafi!
Shalini Razdan
I can't listen to either song, but there are some "badly" sung songs
that I like/enjoy despite my disappointment in the rendition. Rafi's
"jab bhi yeh dil udas hota hai" comes to mind.
Shalini
> C
UVR
> On Apr 16, 12:04 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > she can hit BOTH an ati-mandra ni AND an ati-taar Pa in FULL-THROATED
> > > voice!
>
> > Who "she"? Lata or Parveen Sultana? If Lata, present evidence,
>
> I'm sorry for my carelessness....by she i meant Parween Sultana. Lata
> for sure cannot hit an ati-taar Ma! Agreed that she had an amazing
> range (a little more than 3 octaves is what I get to hear....no
> evidence found though, yet!) but not that much! Correct that no song
> in films ever went past that sort of range (not considering the
> operatic performances in aye dil kahan, aa ab laut, wo ek nigah, tumi
> piya chikara etc) . Frankly, there is no need!
>
> Regards
>
Thanks for clarifying your stance on Parveen Sultana. Her
caliber is not relevant to this discussion, so we will leave it.
I don't think Lata has a range of over 3 octaves. I cannot
think of a single song in which she has demonstrated any
significant performance in the mandra saptak. I will be glad
to receive recommendations of relevant songs from you
in this regard. Thanks in advance.
> > BTW, just to make sure I know we're using the same terminology,
> > ati-taar = TWO octaves above base SA and anu-mandra = TWO
> > octaves below base SA.
>
> ati-madra saptak starts an octave below the base SA....in reverse
> order...(base/ madhya)S (mandra) 'N 'D 'P 'M 'G 'R 'S (ati-mandra) ''N
> ''D...
> ati-taar saptak starts 2 octaves above base SA...in ascending order..
> (base/madhya) S R G M P D N (taar) S' R' G' M' P' D' N' (ati-taar) S''
> R'' G''..
We *are* talking about the same thing, so just to make sure
there is no sophistry involved here, if a singer can comfortably
voice notes from his/her anu-mandra "N all the way up to the
ati-taar S", would you say this singer can sing in 3, 4 or 5
octaves?
> > For the record, I think one of the songs Lata demonstrated a
> > superb range in is her "aajaa bha.Nwar" follow-on to Manna
> > Dey's "u.D jaa bha.Nwar" from Rani Roopmati (SNTripathi).
> > In one swell foop, she demonstrates her amazing vocal skills
> > and shows how poor a match Manna Dey's voice was to hers!
> > The perfectness with which she hits the taar pa (of that octave,
> > which is already extremely high, and presumably half an octave
> > higher than her 'comfort' SA!)
>
> Lata's comfort Sa is Kali 1 (C#4).
I think her comfort Sa would be closer to whatever the 'sa' is, for
'manamohanaa ba.De jhooThe', perhaps a note or two lower.
I don't have a harmonium near me nor do I possess perfect pitch,
to exactly say what the 'sa' of 'manamohanaa' is. All this, of
course,
is just guess work. Only Lata can tell us what her 'comfort Sa'
is, and I bet she doesn't discuss such things with people like
you and I :)
> Half an octave above would make it
> G4. Taar Pa is a D6, which on her usual scale, is an ATI-TAAR
> (komal)R! I suspect it could indeed be true. I'll have to verify...
> Anyhow, true that Manna's performance doesnt ever deserve to be
> mentioned next to Lata's!
Haha ... fully agreed. The Doubting Thomases can listen to the
copy of this song somebody has kindly uploaded to YouTube.
Which, btw, reminds me to say that the taar-pa which Lata has
hit in this song is oh-so-obviously a 'chor galaa' note (she's
probably in the chor gala range all the way from G' here).
Let us disagree on this, if we must, and just enjoy the blitz-
krieg of fast paced taans SNT has her pepper this song with!
> > > Though it
> > > isnt that she always sing in a false voice. 'Piya tu ab to aaja',
> > > 'Raat akeli hai...' are good examples of high-pitched-full-throated
> > > Asha songs...
>
> > Hmm, I see. Have you heard "(o) meri jaaN maiN ne kahaa"
> > (Asha-RDBurman)? Full throated or not?
>
> Meri jaan maine kaha...Full throated??!! Didnt you notice her slipping
> into falsetto every single time she sings 'o meri jaan maine kaha
> aaaa!' By full-throated I mean a singer's *natural voice* I didnt
> notice that anywhere on high pitch in this song.
I asked you about 'meri jaa.N mai.n ne kahaa' to see what you
classify as 'head voice'. I picked this song because you said
'raat akeli hai' has full-throated singing, which I don't think it
does (jo bhi chaahe kahiyEEEE^, for example).
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with film singers using
any kind of falsetto they might want to use. It is a big mistake
to try to judge light and film singers with the same "voice quality"
yardsticks as ICM singers. If we were going to do that, I'd go
so far as to say that Kishore was a better singer than Bhimsen
Joshi. Will BJ *ever* sing "pag ghunghroo baa.Ndh meeraa
naachi thi" like Kishore? I seriously doubt it.
> Everyone surely doesnt include Lata! Falsetto singing is *disallowed*
> in Hindustani Classical Music! False voice, often reffered to as *chor-
> gala* is considered *cheating* Thats why classically trained singers
> abstain from using it. The very fact that Asha *uses* falsettos
> *degrades* her as a singer. Lata on the other hand never required
> false voice to render a song due to her dazzling range!
Everyone sure DOES include Lata! But like I said, I don't think
this is 'cheating' in film singing terms. The field of ICM requires
playing by different rules than the field of HFM -- which is why
in my first post in this thread I said that the 'range' of a singer
is of *academic* interest. It's not useful in determining anything
about the quality of a singer's _singing_, only about the
robustness of his/her voice and/or technique.
-UVR.
Manish Kumar
> > Very interesting! What is your source? I hope it isn't from Raju
> > Bharatan providing the "quotes". Please do tell.
> My source is my knowledge of music and sur and.... "Lata's trademark
> was her angelic voice & *technical prowess*" Lata sings the same thing
> in both the antras (GpS'G'R'R'R') while Rafi sings GpDG'R'R'R'
> Considering Lata's 'technical prowess' she cant be wrong/besura twice!
> It was Rafi who couldnt hit the correct note till the end which
> annoyed everyone in the studio.
I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of music & sur and your
enthusiasm to discuss it. However, only someone who was present at the
recording can be sure that Rafi went off key during the 17 takes.
Other than Raju Bharatan and HIS "interviews" - do we have such a
source?
kvcs...@gmail.com
Pardon me for interrupting this really interesting thread with a
question, but I am really looking for Lata's aa.Ja bhan.War from Rani
Roopmati. Any links to where I can listen the song ?
AR
> On Apr 16, 4:44 pm, cooldudesaks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> from a classical domain. I am not too much in favour of borrowing and
> quoting this composer's or that composer's comments in support of
> Lata, principally because I don't think her singing is in any need of
> validation. But if you really want to go that way, together with
> BGAK's statements you should also unbiasedly figure into your
> evaluation uncomplimentary statements about her singing from for
> example Kishori Amonkar who has said something to the effect that
> "Merely having good handwriting does not mean that what you write is
> of good quality".
>
That might even have something to do with Kishori Amonkar's dislike
for film music or lighter music. I have read interviews where she
dismisses all lighter forms (including bhajans) as "mundane" or
"lacking in depth". So when a light music artiste such as Lata is
considered the epitome of perfection in singing, it might be a sore
spot for Kishori. Also, I find Kishori's handwriting analogy a bit
weird. A film singer *is* supposed to execute (with the addition of
his/her own beauty spots) the tune composed/written entirely by
somebody else. This is unlike a classical singer (particularly in the
Hindustani style) who has to unfold a raga and display its nuances for
typically a full hour. The contribution of a film singer does indeed
rest chiefly upon the quality of his/her voice (the range, the phirat,
the "sweetness", expressive ability, the steadiness of the voice when
required, etc.). Diction, breath control and understanding of lyrics
are additives. So maybe Kishori's analogy is true for a classical
singer, but not quite so for a film singer.
That being said, I do agree that it is necessary to quote even
negative remarks about Lata (or any other artist) in an objective
analysis of her career or abilities. I am not sure how seriously
Kishori's remarks could be taken. But in his (mostly laudatory)
article about Lata, Kumar Gandharva did have to say that Lata did not
do full justice to "karuN rasa".
bhav...@gmail.com
effortlessly negotiates the high pitch parts while Lata seems to
shriek.
Bhavana
Manish Kumar
> That might even have something to do with Kishori Amonkar's dislike
> for film music or lighter music. I have read interviews where she
> dismisses all lighter forms (including bhajans) as "mundane" or
> "lacking in depth". So when a light music artiste such as Lata is
> considered the epitome of perfection in singing, it might be a sore
> spot for Kishori. Also, I find Kishori's handwriting analogy a bit
> weird. A film singer *is* supposed to execute (with the addition of
> his/her own beauty spots) the tune composed/written entirely by
> somebody else. This is unlike a classical singer (particularly in the
> Hindustani style) who has to unfold a raga and display its nuances for
> typically a full hour. The contribution of a film singer does indeed
> rest chiefly upon the quality of his/her voice (the range, the phirat,
> the "sweetness", expressive ability, the steadiness of the voice when
> required, etc.). Diction, breath control and understanding of lyrics
> are additives. So maybe Kishori's analogy is true for a classical
> singer, but not quite so for a film singer.
That is an excellent post. My guess is that some members are judging
film music as they would judge classical music, hence the strong
disapproval. I've already expressed my views on how a distinction must
be made (at times) for film music. This certainly doesn't make it a
lesser art.
UVR
YouTube is your friend. Just search for Rani Roopmati
and click on the "ud ja bhanwar" song. Lata's "aajaa
bhanwar" part is a follow on to the leading Manna Dey
part.
-UVR.
UVR
> On Apr 16, 1:46 pm, Arunabha <roy.aruna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > example Kishori Amonkar who has said something to the effect that
> > "Merely having good handwriting does not mean that what you write is
> > of good quality".
>
> That might even have something to do with Kishori Amonkar's dislike
> for film music or lighter music. I have read interviews where she
> dismisses all lighter forms (including bhajans) as "mundane" or
> "lacking in depth".
She must have been in a "BS'ing" mood when she said this,
if she did, because I have a CD in which she has sung some
bhajans (and she's done a fabulous job indeed) in a light music
vein.
> So when a light music artiste such as Lata is
> considered the epitome of perfection in singing, it might be a sore
> spot for Kishori. Also, I find Kishori's handwriting analogy a bit
> weird. A film singer *is* supposed to execute (with the addition of
> his/her own beauty spots) the tune composed/written entirely by
> somebody else. This is unlike a classical singer (particularly in the
> Hindustani style) who has to unfold a raga and display its nuances for
> typically a full hour. The contribution of a film singer does indeed
> rest chiefly upon the quality of his/her voice (the range, the phirat,
> the "sweetness", expressive ability, the steadiness of the voice when
> required, etc.). Diction, breath control and understanding of lyrics
> are additives. So maybe Kishori's analogy is true for a classical
> singer, but not quite so for a film singer.
Agreed, in general. I disagree about those three things being
only "additives". They are essential ingredients!
> That being said, I do agree that it is necessary to quote even
> negative remarks about Lata (or any other artist) in an objective
> analysis of her career or abilities. I am not sure how seriously
> Kishori's remarks could be taken. But in his (mostly laudatory)
> article about Lata, Kumar Gandharva did have to say that Lata did not
> do full justice to "karuN rasa".
I don't get it. Why is it necessary to quote someone's
*subjective opinion* in an *objective* analysis of Lata's
career or abilities? Even though I consider KG as
fantabulous a singer as the best of them, and then
some, his opinion of Lata is still an opinion, right?
-UVR.
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> > > However, I did *love* Madhuban Mein Radkhika from
> > > Kohinoor.
> > Fair enough but he did not do the hardest part of this song. He holds
> > it together as a song fairly well but misses the essence of Hameer.
> > You can of course lay the blame at Naushad's doorstep.
>
> That was just a playful expression - I wasn't blaming anyone. The
> scene for this Kohinoor of a song is straightforward unlike that of Ae
> Mohabbat Zindabad or Dil Ke Jharoke Mein.
I think you did not get what I am saying. The problem with the
Kohinoor song is not that he is screaming or is off-key or any of
these things. It is with capturing the essenece of the raaga. When you
talk about classical virtuosity in a filmy context this is of
paramount importance. Being able to do complex and crisp taankari is
not required. It helps if you can do it but that's all.
> you know my opinion :)
I can guess. But if you keep an open mind you might realize that
madhuban me.n is not the best-ever classical-based film song. Not even
in the same zipcode.
> On the song: Baat Chalat Na Chunari Rang
>
> I listened to that song multiple times from my collection. Although I
> too will agree that Rafi was not up to the task for this composition -
> only for fun, I will share another thought:
Your disclaimer is what has spared you :)
But seriously, if you are indeed thinking along those lines you are
only fooling yourself. Rafi was not up to the task of rendering the
song. Don't make his inadequacy into some sort of a charming excuse to
butcher the song. Anyway, just my sincere recommendation on this. Take
what you can from it. I will not argue further on this point.
C