Why did all singers sing in that nasal way
vrk
held sway. He had 36 releases in one year (prob 2006). all request
shows used to have the typical line - himesh kaa koii bhee gaanaa
bajaa dijiye.
at the peak of his popularity - some correspondent asked him "aap naak
se kyo.n gaate hai.n"
his response was saigal, mukesh and rd burman all of them also did
likewise and he was no different. the same channel (looking for
instant 'sansani') went and asked asha bhonsle for her response. asha
in a fit of pique said "himesh reshamiya ko thappaD maaro"
the incident is dead and buried. but a recent discussion with a friend
made me wonder
why did all the singers of the 30s and 40s sound nasal. was it
something to do with the mikes available then. or was it the influence
of any 'gharana'.
they all without exception - sang in a particular way which can only
be described as 'nasal' for want of a better word. what made them sing
thus and what or who prompted the change from that nasal tone into the
throaty singing of the 50s and later years. only mukesh held on to
that tone - almost as if 'unkee naak kaa savaal thaa'.
any explanations?
p.s. the specific trigger for this was the kl saigal death anniversary
and the various clips mushrooming on various media.
surjit singh
I have been listening to Saigal and Co forever. I do not hear any nose
singing.
UVR
>
> why did all the singers of the 30s and 40s sound nasal. was it
> something to do with the mikes available then. or was it the influence
> of any 'gharana'.
>
> they all without exception - sang in a particular way which can only
> be described as 'nasal' for want of a better word. what made them sing
> thus and what or who prompted the change from that nasal tone into the
> throaty singing of the 50s and later years. only mukesh held on to
> that tone - almost as if 'unkee naak kaa savaal thaa'.
>
> any explanations?
>
> p.s. the specific trigger for this was the kl saigal death anniversary
> and the various clips mushrooming on various media.
RD Burman's inclusion in that list definitely merits a thappa.D -- because his voice cannot by any stretch of the imagination be placed in the same "type" of voices (nasality/non-nasality-wise) as Saigal's and Mukesh's.
For Saigal and Mukesh, you have to define what "nasal" means, before levelling that accusation at them. If you ask me 'nasal' isn't right word. Yes, if you focus very narrowly on the way Saigal sang some of his 'na'-s and 'ma'-s, you may find (those specific consonants) a little bit more nasal than those of, say, Talat, Rafi or Kishore (etc). But overall, the singing is not more nasal at all.*
If you want to hear nasal singing, go listen to Kumar Nasu, oh-sorry, Sanu. Then again, unless you're a masochist, it's unlikely you'll enjoy that too much :-) I'm joking, of course. For singing that is truly nasal, you'll hardly find a better candidate than Kishore's parodies of the "Saigal era singers", IMO.
-UVR.
*PS: It would be nasal if, for example, Saigal had sung, "jab dil hi TooT gayaa.N-aa.N-aa.N" -- but (listen carefully) he DOES NOT do that. QED.
vrk
well i guess the word nasal does raise heckles. but i suppose you do
get what i mean, the singers of that era - sdb, saigal, mukesh et al
sang in a certain manner. it is probably the way they elongated a note
- baabul moraaa(n)...or probably just the way they sang, which is diff
from the way kishore (when not parodying ashok or sdb or saigal) sang
or rafi sang or talat sang.
voice coaches tell us that the body has six resonators and the chest
and of course the nose are two of them. a complete voice knows how to
use all the six. a good friend also a great mimic used to mimic kumar
sanu in college by singing - jaane jigar jaane man. at the 'mann'- he
would place his hand on his chest and shake it vigorously. to create
mannnnnnn...nnn. so my guess is that kumar sanu used the chest
resonator as much as the nose :) mimics generally get down to the bone
quickly.
so to answer this questions using your parameters ask yourself if you
had to mimic them, what change would you make to your normal singing
voice. would be surprised if the nose did not come in the way (even if
erroneously)
regards
ravi
surjit singh
I also have a problem with your title. You say 'all the singers'. What
do you mean all the singers? Have you or Himesh studied the voices of
all the singers?
vrk
I am not holding a brief for Himesh. That was a much publicised
incident.
but this topic of 'all singers' of that era has happened with a couple
of colleagues over the last few years. the word 'nasal' could be
substituted with a more technically correct word. but i (and many
others) say nasal because if i have to imitate that sound (in my own
half baked way), i go slightly nasal. if i had to imitate bob mcferrin
i go throaty gruffy. i even see the way a typical american speak
english as nasal {kaa.m puh Tishan etc). prob technically incorrect.
but that is the resonator that seems to be used.
in fact even the dialogues of the 40s had that quality. made me wonder
it had something to do with the quality of mikes. since the mikes were
not sensitive, you had to have a greater throw. like in theatre. a
base voice will kill the throw. so you go treble. and treble generally
brings the nose resonator into play.
the famous close up ad in the 40s style (kyaa.n aap close up karte
hai.n) is a case in point for the imitation. but i am sure you
understand what i mean.
and if there are popular singers of the 40s who are not 'nasal' please
point me to them.
surjit singh
None of the 40s singers I have heard ( I have heard a lot) are nasal.
naniwadekar
>
> None of the 40s singers I have heard ( I have heard a lot) are nasal.
>
People unused to the '1940s sound' of film songs are first surprised
by it, and the second step is that they call it nasal. I don't think
the description is inaccurate.
Most people who call that music 'nasal' use the term pejoratively. I
absolutely love the sound. But that's a different topic.
Assuming that 'nasal' is not the correct term for it, it can still be
safely asserted that that manner of voice production slowly
disappeared in the 20-year period 1946-1965, as Lata and Rafi came to
symbolise film music more and more. However the word 'nasal' is more
readily associated by me with female singers of 1940s, not with
Saigal. Among singers who dominated 1950s, Talat was more a throw-back
to the restrained 1940s style than Asha or Rafi, yet I wouldn't call
Talat nasal.
Pre-independence music is better characterized as 'restrained' than
'nasal', IMO. But nasal-ness was also among the qualities that marked
it.
- dn
vrk
there certainly was something common to the sound of that era.
was this 'restrained' style of singing born out of some technical
demand. or was it born out of some tradition. or were they influenced
by one singer who set the trend?
surjit singh
Of course, different eras have different 'sounds'. In that early era
they were all influenced by the semi-classical baithak style that was
prevalent at that time. But there were other types too. Explore
youtube or my website to study them. Listen to all the Saigal songs
available on M V Surender's website to see if all the songs sound
alike to you. I bet they won't.
Read some books by experts, in particular, by the famous
Ethnomusicologist Ashok Da. Ranade, who in his book, 'Hindi Film Song:
Music Beyond Boundaries; exploring music from 1931 to 1980, gives a
perceptive musical assessment of all the famous singers and composers
(even RDB and Kishor!).
vrk
yes that is true, every era would have mavericks who go against the
flow.
but the point i was making was that the current generation when it
refers to that era - goes nasal. correctly or erroneously. i had given
the close up ad as an example. another one came to mind. vishal and
shekhar when they wanted to recreate that era went extremely nasal in
the song 'kyon aage peeche Dolte ho bhanwron ki tarah' in golmaal. and
of course pritam aan milo from angoor. i am sure there are others
which are slipping the memory. the latter might have taken a
pejorative tone, the former was a pure romantic no picturised on
paresh and sushmita. and neither shekhar nor shweta pandit are
otherwise nasal.
while there might be a lot of academic underpinning to what ostensibly
sounds nasal - it does sound nasal. Proof of that is when people
attempt to recreate it - they go nasal. and these people are musicians
(good bad or ugly) - why would they not go guttural if that was closer
to the sound.
surjit singh
Yes, when people want to make fun, they will do and say all kinds of
things. You should not blindly believe them. Do your own work.
My point is that I have studied 3 books and many articles on Saigal
and many others on that era, written by experts, and then listened to
the songs and then made up my mind. And now some idiots (not you) say
something and I am supposed to believe in them. As they say in US,
gimme a break!
If you really want to convince anybody, find an example of nasality
from 30s or 40s, as clearly explained by by UVR.
Shakes
Yes, like you make fun of Kishore Kumar by calling him "Kishor". I
have repeatedly seen your subtle (not so much) digs at Kishore Kumar.
I am not saying he was the best singer or the best human being, but
your lack of respect for his talent is shocking and sad. KK was a
great singer.
> My point is that I have studied 3 books and many articles on Saigal
> and many others on that era, written by experts, and then listened to
> the songs and then made up my mind. And now some idiots (not you) say
> something and I am supposed to believe in them. As they say in US,
> gimme a break!
>
> If you really want to convince anybody, find an example of nasality
> from 30s or 40s, as clearly explained by by UVR.
Actually, I have that book by Ashok Da. Ranade and it is interesting
that the author had more inputs for Saigal, Kishore Kumar, and Manna
Dey than he had for Talat, Mukesh, and Rafi. Obviously, he reserved
the best for Lata. Goes to show you that Kishore Kumar was more
talented and versatile than you give him credit for.
If his songs are not your cup of tea, equal blame can be given to the
composers for not giving him songs like Khemchand Prakash and Anil
Biswas did.
Shakes
Funny thing is that even staunch Rafi fans have more respect for his
talents than you do. Not to mention that they (Sanjeev, UVR, Chetan)
are very knowledgeable too. Similarly, other knowledgeable folks like
Rajan, Surajit etc. have immense respect for his singing and overall
musical talents.
You may or may not like his singing or his songs. The least you can do
is show him some respect, because I believe he is talented enough to
deserve it.
surjit singh
Great, a Kishore fan! Let us start a new Rafi-Kishore war :)
suhas
Whole discussion is unnecessary.No gharana teaches anyone to use nasal
voice,.Nasal voice or any other is not cultivated,A singer ( or any
other ) is born with a voice- nasal or not nasal.
BHARAT Pandya...
vrk
as i had mentioned the golmaal song was not about poking fun. there
are films which poke fun at the 70s. the singers don't go nasal there.
caricatures are accentuation of features, but you need something for
it to be accentuated. john major was initially called a caricaturist's
nightmare, then they ended up accentuating his thick glasses. as
ghalib said
laag ho to usko hum samjhe.n lagaav....
so if the films poking fun at 70s have broader bellbottoms, it does
indicate that bell bottoms existed. if the hair was long, many people
wore it long. if the collars were broader they were broad...(i still
have a couple of those)...
so if the films parodying earlier periods (even if they are being
pejoratively alluded to) have a nasal twang), there must have been
some basis to it.
but anyways the point was not only about kls...it is about that entire
era.
par ab maine bahut naak ragaD lee hai. :)
ye na thi hamaarii qismat ke misaale naak hotii
surjit singh
Not true. If a statement is an outright lie, there can be no basis to
it. Find an example a la UVR then we will talk.
irfan
> On Jan 20, 7:48 pm, vrk <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 20, 8:46 pm, surjit singh <surjitsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 20, 2:04 am, vrk <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 20, 12:15 pm, surjit singh <surjitsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 19, 9:45 pm, vrk <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 10:24 am, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 19, 7:50 pm, surjit singh wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > None of the 40s singers I have heard ( I have heard a lot) arenasal.
>
> > > > > > > People unused to the '1940s sound' of film songs are first surprised
> > > > > > > the description is inaccurate.
>
> > > > > > > Most people who call that music 'nasal' use the term pejoratively. I
> > > > > > > absolutely love the sound. But that's a different topic.
>
> > > > > > > Assuming that 'nasal' is not the correct term for it, it can still be
> > > > > > > safely asserted that that manner of voice production slowly
> > > > > > > disappeared in the 20-year period 1946-1965, as Lata and Rafi came to
> > > > > > > symbolise film music more and more. However the word 'nasal' is more
> > > > > > > readily associated by me with female singers of 1940s, not with
> > > > > > > Saigal. Among singers who dominated 1950s, Talat was more a throw-back
> > > > > > > to the restrained 1940s style than Asha or Rafi, yet I wouldn't call
> > > > > > > Talatnasal.
>
> > > > > > > Pre-independence music is better characterized as 'restrained' than
> > > > > > > it.
>
> > > > > > > - dn
>
> > > > > > there certainly was something common to the sound of that era.
>
> > > > > > demand. or was it born out of some tradition. or were they influenced
> > > > > > by one singer who set the trend?
>
> > > > > Of course, different eras have different 'sounds'. In that early era
> > > > > they were all influenced by the semi-classical baithak style that was
> > > > > prevalent at that time. But there were other types too. Explore
> > > > > youtube or my website to study them. Listen to all the Saigal songs
> > > > > available on M V Surender's website to see if all the songs sound
> > > > > alike to you. I bet they won't.
>
> > > > > Read some books by experts, in particular, by the famous
> > > > > Ethnomusicologist Ashok Da. Ranade, who in his book, 'Hindi Film Song:
> > > > > Music Beyond Boundaries; exploring music from 1931 to 1980, gives a
> > > > > perceptive musical assessment of all the famous singers and composers
> > > > > (even RDB and Kishor!).
>
> > > > yes that is true, every era would have mavericks who go against the
> > > > flow.
>
> > > > but the point i was making was that the current generation when it
> > > > the close up ad as an example. another one came to mind. vishal and
> > > > shekhar when they wanted to recreate that era went extremelynasalin
> > > > the song 'kyon aage peeche Dolte ho bhanwron ki tarah' in golmaal. and
> > > > of course pritam aan milo from angoor. i am sure there are others
> > > > which are slipping the memory. the latter might have taken a
> > > > pejorative tone, the former was a pure romantic no picturised on
> > > > paresh and sushmita. and neither shekhar nor shweta pandit are
> > > > otherwisenasal.
>
> > > > while there might be a lot of academic underpinning to what ostensibly
> > > > attempt to recreate it - they gonasal. and these people are musicians
> > > > (good bad or ugly) - why would they not go guttural if that was closer
> > > > to the sound.
>
> > > Yes, when people want to make fun, they will do and say all kinds of
> > > things. You should not blindly believe them. Do your own work.
>
> > > My point is that I have studied 3 books and many articles on Saigal
> > > and many others on that era, written by experts, and then listened to
> > > the songs and then made up my mind. And now some idiots (not you) say
> > > something and I am supposed to believe in them. As they say in US,
> > > gimme a break!
>
> > > If you really want to convince anybody, find an example of nasality
> > > from 30s or 40s, as clearly explained by by UVR.
>
> > as i had mentioned the golmaal song was not about poking fun. there
> > are films which poke fun at the 70s. the singers don't gonasalthere.
> > caricatures are accentuation of features, but you need something for
> > it to be accentuated. john major was initially called a caricaturist's
> > nightmare, then they ended up accentuating his thick glasses. as
> > ghalib said
>
> > laag ho to usko hum samjhe.n lagaav....
>
> > so if the films poking fun at 70s have broader bellbottoms, it does
> > indicate that bell bottoms existed. if the hair was long, many people
> > wore it long. if the collars were broader they were broad...(i still
> > have a couple of those)...
>
> > so if the films parodying earlier periods (even if they are being
> > some basis to it.
>
> > but anyways the point was not only about kls...it is about that entire
> > era.
>
> > par ab maine bahut naak ragaD lee hai. :)
>
> > ye na thi hamaarii qismat ke misaale naak hotii
>
> Not true. If a statement is an outright lie, there can be no basis to
> it. Find an example a la UVR then we will talk.
Here is an example of nasal singing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6llKdUI5jc
Sometimes during singing some singers do sing in this way.
Classical singers from Patiala Gharana have this feature.
Even Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan used this sometimes to
put an extra pinch of feelings.
Regards,
Irfan
Sunil Dandekar
>
> - Show quoted text -
I read this thread with interest. Tried to sing 'Kyun aage peeche" etc
the way it is sung, and imagined the way Lata would have sung it. I
think the 'nasal way' that you are referring to, accentuates the real
and virtual -for the want of parallel word in English- anuswars. And
this tendency is more pronounced with the words ending with 'u' or
'e'.
I think what you are trying to discuss has more to do with the style
of singing rather than the preferred resonating equipment of the
singer. I know what you mean, without defining what is nasal.
I also agree with DN when he says that this singing style used to be
more popular with ladies of forties. Why? Probably for the same reason
that practically everybody wore bellbottoms in the late 70s.
Was little uncomfortable with your observation about KLS singing Babul
Mora in the nasal way. In my opinion nothing can be farther than the
truth. To my ears the voice appears very clear and open. BTW IMHO one
of the best sung songs, in the sense that the voice delivers exactly
what is being promised by lyrics.
regards,
Sunil