Meaning...Kismet Konnection song
Artnut
Some confusion here, thanks to my lack of knowledge of Urdu.
Ideally, we see in the films that an actor, wrongly convicted is released
and acquitted by the courts saying
"Aapko BAA IZZAT bari kiya jata"
I presume baa here means "with" so baa izzat means respectfully?
Now the new hit from the filmKismet Konnection --"Baakhuda tumhi ho" has
confused me.
What does it mean? Like god? The song also has another word "Beshuba".......
what does that mean?
Its surprising to see a youngster singing away such big Urdu words when some
actors can't even speak Hindi properly.
BTW, Shahid's maternal uncle, father of Neelima Azim, was the first Urdu
editor of the Mumbai edition of Blitz, of the famous Russi Karanjia.
Regards,
Arty
Naseer
Arty jii, aadaab
baa-KHudaa= By God (KHudaa kii qasam)
be-shubha= Without doubt/suspicion
baa=ke saath/se (baa hosh-o-havaas maiN diivaanah....Rafi)
be= without (be-shak without doubt)
I hope this is helpful.
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
I haven't yet heard the song. Naseer Saheb has explained the
meanings correctly. I would just like to add that, normally,
we seldom get to hear "baa~KHuda". It is usually "ba~KHuda".
In this form, there is no (elongated) 'alif' between the 'b'
and 'KH' letters.
Also, the normal usage is "bila~shubha". "Be~shubha" may be
correct, but seldom heard.
Afzal
Artnut
"Naseer" <qure...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:e46abd89-db6d-42b8...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
Naseer sahab,
Thank you very much for clearing the confusion. I see that people do not
even speak decent Hindi, leave alone a standard Hindi of newspapers which
can be difficult to understand in day to day life. Even though the Hindi
films aren't exactly Hindi as they are more Hindustani, a mix of Hindi and
Urdu, one can easily notice that even Hindustani is not being used much.
There are many English words. No complaints. But to see someone as young as
Shahid use such words, well, doesn't help me.
I think the use of Urdu words faded with choclate faced heros because they
were more westernised. Late 80's onwards maybe.
Regards,
Arty
Artnut
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:g6i13g$bp7$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
Afzal sahab, I am surprised you haven't heard this song yet. I cannot say
that I know too many old songs but whatever few oldies I have heard, I
didn't hear the word beshuba or bila shubha in any. Any instances in old
songs you can share please?
Regards,
Arty
Afzal A. Khan
At your bidding, I heard the song today. The singers are Atif
Aslam (who, I think, knows Urdu quite well) and Alka Yagnik.
At one place, Alka distinctly enunciates one word as "pan'ha"
(which means "refuge"). The correct pronunciation is "panaah".
Also the words "alfaazoN" and "lamhaatoN" are quite wrong.
These represent double pluralization. The correct plural forms
are "alfaaz" and "lam'haat". The singular forms are "lafz" and
"lam'ha" respectively.
"Bila Shubh" : This is the much commoner usage, as I said
earlier. But, in song lyrics, even this usage may be quite
rare. Normally, the word used instead is "be~shak" which means
the same thing.
Afzal
Artnut
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
Afzal sahab, that was a wonderful explanation. Although I do not know much
of Urdu, just a few words that are heard (aware through hearing them, not
necessarily aware of its meaning) in ghazals and old songs, I did feel that
alfaazon and lamhaaton were wrong. Don't know how I came to believe it is
wrong. Maybe because those words I must not have heard at all.
But overall, your commentary sounds like a music connoisseur's analysis. I
haven't come across many passionate listeners except in RMIM who really
point out the nuances of how the singer should have uttered a particular
word...as you put about Panaah and Panha.
I admit I myself am not quite a passionate listener of music.
Arty
Afzal A. Khan
You are most welcome.
And whenever you experience any difficulty about some Urdu words/
pronunciations etc., please do not hesitate to ask about it,
either in this forum or on my e-mail which is ilunderscorekhan
at yahoo dot com. If I am able to answer your queries, it would
be my pleasure.
Afzal
Artnut
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
Thank you Afzal sahab. I listened to the Bakhuda song again and found that
even Atif has wronged (MY LISTENING SENSE) when he sings "cha te hai ham
tumhe" The ha is missing from chahate hai.
And I wish to know what does "iftedaa" means as Alka sings ifteda/iftida
tumhi ho, inteha tumhi ho. Inteha means limit as they say be-inteha which
means without any limit. I hope she doesn't sing Ibteda which I think is
commencement or beginning like in Haryali Aur Raasta song Ibteda-e-ishq mein
ham.
Regards,
Arty
Naseer
> Thank you Afzal sahab. I listened to the Bakhuda song again and found that
> even Atif has wronged (MY LISTENING SENSE) when he sings "cha te hai ham
> tumhe" The ha is missing from chahate hai.
>
> And I wish to know what does "iftedaa" means as Alka sings ifteda/iftida
> tumhi ho, inteha tumhi ho. Inteha means limit as they say be-inteha which
> means without any limit. I hope she doesn't sing Ibteda which I think is
> commencement or beginning like in Haryali Aur Raasta song Ibteda-e-ishq mein
> ham.
I know you have addressed your query to Afzal Sahib but I am sure he
will not mind if I answer this question:)
I have n't heard the song but the words should be..
chaahte haiN ham tumheN...
Secondly, the word is as you have suggested yourself "ibtiddaa" which
means "begining"/"commencement"/"origin", being opposite of "intihaa"
denoting "end"/"extreme"/"utmost limit".
Naseer
UVR
A(nother) song which does have a tangibly elongated alif in baaKhudaa
is the (un?)forgettable Bappi Lahiri song from Namak Halaal, "pag
ghunghroo baaNdhi Meera naachi thi aur ham naache bin ghunghroo ke",
where Kishore sings for Amitabh:
aap to andar se kuchh aur, baahar se kuchh aur nazar aate haiN
*baa Khudaa* shakl se to CHOR! nazar aate haiN
aap kaa to lagtaa hai bas yehi sapnaa
raam naam japnaa, parayaa maal apnaa
Those who remember the scene on screen may recall this part with some
amusement.
-UVR.
Naseer
janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab.
What you have written above is absolutely correct. In Urdu way of
thinking, I believe "ba-KHudaa" is the only correct version. "baa-
KHudaa" would mean "godly/pious" etc.
You are also right that we don't normally say "be-shubah" but,
instead, we use "bilaa-shubah". I've checked in a dictionary and it
does give "be-shak-o-shubah". So, perhaps, one could stretch the usage
to "be-shubah".
UVR Sahib has provided an example of "baa-KHudaa" and it is his post
which has prompted me to respond to yours. It is my opinion ( and it
is an opinion only) that this usage, if indeed it is becoming common,
could be as a result of modern Farsi usage. In modern Farsi, the
preposition "ba" used in this context is almost always replaced by the
preposition "baa". Even in the means of transport and instrumental
usage, one finds "baa" where we would expect "ba".
e.g.
man baa qitaar raftam.......................... I went by train
(gaaRii se)
uu aan mard-raa baa kaard kusht...........He killed that man with a
knife (chhurii se)
Our usage is of course that of Classical Persian.
baa-hosh=hosh vaalaa
uu baa dost-ash raft= vuh apne dost *ke saath* gayaa
Naseer
UVR
Naseer saahib,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying "as a result of
modern Farsi usage". It seems that you're suggesting that the use of
"baa Khudaa" in these two songs is indicative of an influence of
(modern) Farsi on the lyricists of Hindi films. If you're indeed
saying this, then I could not disagree more.
The average Hindustani-wallah couldn't know less about modern Farsi
linguistic trends than he knows already. Heck, some (such as Artnut
ji here) even feel s/he couldn't know less about Hindi and Urdu than s/
he does.
-UVR.
Naseer
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying "as a result of
> modern Farsi usage". It seems that you're suggesting that the use of
> "baa Khudaa" in these two songs is indicative of an influence of
> (modern) Farsi on the lyricists of Hindi films. If you're indeed
> saying this, then I could not disagree more.
Yes, UVR Sahib, this is what I was suggesting. Perhaps I am "over-
rating" the naGhma-nigaars of the film industry. Certainly the trend
in Iran is "ba">>>>"baa".
One observes a similar trend in Urdu/Hindi's usage of quivalent
postpositions, in the "instrumental" usage. In place of the correct
(IMHO) usage such as "maiN ne chhurii se seb kaaTaa", one often hears
"chhurii ke saath", which is equivalent of "ba/baa" shift.
What do you think the reason might be. Simple mispronunciation of
"ba"?
Naseer
UVR
The se -> ke saath shift is equally attributable to the influence of
English! (I cut the apple *WITH* a knife [not 'by']). I think the
Hindustani of the average Indian (don't know about Pakistani) is more
influenced by English than by Farsi!
As for 'baa-Khudaa', it's too soon to declare it a 'trend' and start
research. I am not aware of any more songs where "baaKhudaa" is seen
other than the two that have already been mentioned.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
In all this discussion, maybe we are missing one point.
The "normal usage is "ba~KHuda" (with a zabar, without any alif).
And this is an oath or 'qasam'. It is something equivalent to
"By God". On the other hand, "baa" (with the elongation/alif) is
normally used in the sense of "with" --- and not as an oath. An
example would be "qaid-e-baa~mashaqqat".
I don't think the use of the word in the song is in any way indi-
cative of the influence of modern Faarsi on Indian song writers.
I would be more than happy if they could stick to "baa~mohawara"
Urdu alone.
I don't know who is the lyricist here. But the Director Aziz
Mirza knows Urdu well enough. And so does the male singer
Atif Aslam (or so I presume). Quite possibly, the tune com-
posed by Pritam demanded that "ba" should be converted into
"baa". In other words, a "musical compulsion".
If one merely wanted to prolong the discussion, one could say
that "baa" has been used here in the sense of "with" only. And
the writer seems to imply that "you (alone) are imbued with the
love or devotion of God". But this would be stretching things
quite a bit.
Afzal
Artnut
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
Now this could be a result of my auditory faculty but Atif *sounds* like he
sings LAMS wo saare. Maybe it has to be labz as in lips or lafz as in words?
Alka clearly says IFTIDA tumhi ho. What does iftida means? Ibteda means the
beginning. So can IF and IB be used interchangeably?
Regards,
Arty
Naseer
> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote in messagenews:g7733o$nuq$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
Arty jii,
IF and IB are not interchangeable. There is such a word as " iftidaa'
" but I must admit, I have not come across its usage. It means
"redemption/self-sacrifice/devotion for someone" etc. "lams" means
"feeling" , " a touch".
"iftidaa' tumhiiN ho"... I am not sure if this makes sense.
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
>
> Now this could be a result of my auditory faculty but Atif *sounds* like he
> sings LAMS wo saare. Maybe it has to be labz as in lips or lafz as in words?
> Alka clearly says IFTIDA tumhi ho. What does iftida means? Ibteda means the
> beginning. So can IF and IB be used interchangeably?
>
> Regards,
> Arty
I do think that the word in the song is in fact "lams", which
means "touch" or "contact".
The other word is "ibteda" which (as you rightly say) means
"the beginning". It goes well with the subsequent "inteha"
which mean "the end".
Afzal
UVR
> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote in messagenews:g7733o$nuq$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
FWIW, I took a few minutes and courtesy some YouTube user, managed to
listen to the whole(?) song. It's a duet sung by Atif Aslam and Alka
Yagnik. (I must say here that Alka is no Lata when it comes to Urdu
pronunciation, and Atif is no Rafi either). From what I hear, the
words of the stanza in question are:
Atif:
kaise bataayeN tumheN shab meN tumhaare Khwaab haseeN jo aate haiN
kaise bataayeN tumheN lams woh saare jism ko jo mehkaate haiN
Alka:
iftidaa[1] tumheeN ho intihaa tumheeN ho
tum ho jeene kaa maqsad, aur wajh(a)[2] tumheeN ho
...
[1] Yes she does say IFtidaa, Arty-ji, proving that your ears are no
worse than mine.
However, like Afzal saahib, I too think she was supposed to say
IBtidaa. I'm not
sure iftidaa really fits in the context.
[2] wajh(a) is pronounced "wajaa" as if to rhyme with intihaa
-UVR.
Artnut
"UVR" <u...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fb26e75f-80cb-4397...@a2g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
...
-UVR.
I feel vindicated, thanks to UVR, Naseer sahab and Afzal sahab. So does this
mean that since there are no good listeners, quality demanding listeners,
connoiseurs of music-- these singers can take liberties with the void and
sing just as they please? I don't think they are doing it deliberately but
it doesn't reflect their passion and professionalism towards their singing.
They seem to be more professional in "signing"---- the amount for singing! I
have heard that even though Lata, Asha weren't formally educated as in
secondary school but they made sure to learn the nuances of Hindi and Urdu.
As per UVR and myself-- Alka does say it as IFtida. Naseer sahab explains it
as redemption, devotion which could be what she means of her lover. But then
how does it rhyme with intehaa which means the end or limit? I think the
lyrics must have been IBteda but it must have skipped the MD's and
lyricist's attentions. Even if it must have been noticed, it could be
possible they must have shrugged it off saying "Chhodon yaar, waise bhi kaun
itne gaur se sunega, time kiske paas hai aajkal aur Urdu kitne logo ko malum
hai". They are right.
Arty
Wang.X...@gmail.com
that I speak only English, French, and Chinese, can someone provide an
idea of what Atif's song means? Maybe not a word-for-word lyric
translation, but a general gist?
rajesh
afzal you seem to be kind to explain urdu meanings thats nice of you can
i get your help for meaning of some urdu words i dont understand
--
rajesh
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Afzal A. Khan
> afzal you seem to be kind to explain urdu meanings thats nice of you can
> i get your help for meaning of some urdu words i dont understand
Please go ahead. I will try to do the best I can.
Afzal
