BOL ANAMOL: Noorjehan's first song
VSR...@datainfosys.net
I could not find this film in kosh, though there are 7 Gul Bakaawalis
listed upto 1987, none in Punjabi in 1939.
I don't know punjabi, yet I have noted down from what sounds she was
producing.
Corrections invited. meanings?
Those who have not heard it, do listen to it. It is so captivating.
She gives no indication that it was her first song. Lata's voice was
different in her first few years. Noorjehan's this song has the same
voice she had 5 or 10 years later.
---------
I find that Noorjehan's popular songs started coming from 42/44 dost,
khandan, etc. Why this gap of 1939-1944?
The Great Naushad must be envious of Ghulam Haider for once.
-Rawat
----------------
% BOL ANAMOL: #12140 [V S Rawat]
%
\startsong
%stat{vsrp13401, 1.00, 17/01/2004}%
\stitle{shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe}%
\film{Punjabi-Film(Gul-E-Bakawali)}%
\year{1939}%
\starring{}%
\singer{Noorjehan}%
\music{Ghulam Haider}%
\lyrics{Wali Sahab}%
%
% Contributor: BOL ANAMOL #12140 [V S Rawat]
%
\printtitle
#indian
%
( shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai
akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai pii lai ) \-2
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
( akhiyaa.N wich akhiyaa.N paa ke
tohafaa miThaa_ii laa ke ) \-2
pighalii haay jannat pii jaa \-2
kaliyaa.N dii asamat pii jaa \-2
jii lai do\-chaar dihaa.De jii lai
jii lai do\-chaar dihaa.De jii lai jii lai
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai
akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai pii lai
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
( pagale mu.Nh\-zor jawaanii
mu.D\-mu.D ke ha.Nsanii aanii ) \-2
saaqii taa bhar paimaanaa \-2
pii lai saramast zamaanaa
jii lai do\-chaar dihaa.De jii lai
jii lai do\-chaar dihaa.De jii lai jii lai
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai
akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai pii lai
shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
%
#endindian
\endsong
%
-----------------------end
naniwadekar
<VSR...@datainfosys.net> wrote -
>
> HMV cassette says it is the first song of Malikaa-e-tarannum.
>
> I could not find this film in kosh, though there are 7 Gul Bakaawalis
> listed upto 1987, none in Punjabi in 1939.
>
*HINDI* Film Geet Kosh covers Punjabi films? Or did Hamraaz
send you its 'Rawat-special' edition?
>
> I find that Noorjehan's popular songs started coming from 42/44 dost,
> khandan, etc. Why this gap of 1939-1944?
>
When her songs did start coming out in 1942 as you say,
why talk of any gap upto 1944? You have again started posting
at a pace your brain or anybody else's can't cope with. I feel
like running on the platform trying to keep with the Rawat Exp
fast off on rails. While I start waving my handerchief for
goodbye, white-coloured to indicate surrender and helplessness,
I think I can help you a bit on this. Vitthal Das Panchotiya,
Director of Gaibi Gola (1935 Kolkata film by Madan ('maadan')
Theatres), claimed to Hamraaz that Noor Jehan had acted
in his film but did not sing any songs. Soon later, she must have
been back in Lahore. Why she ever went to Kolkata in
1935 is not clear to me. Lahore's film Industry did not pick
up big-time on Hindi Films in the '30s and such films as
did get made (eg; Majnu-1935) did not bother to release
songs on 78.
Between her Punjabi Film Debut in Gul-e-Bakawali in 1939
and her Hindi Film Debut in Khandan (1942), Noor Jehan
did get to sing in two Punjabi Films for Ghulam Haider. Yamla
Jat (1940) and Chaudhry (1941). There was, thankfully, no
unholy craze to feature her in every film. Other Punjabi films
of that era -- Sassi Punnu, Dulla Bhatti, Guandi, Mera Mahi,
Patwari, Ravi Paar, Mangti -- had songs by other great talents
like Umra-o-zia Begum (Ghulam Haider's wife), Shamshad,
Zeenat Begum, Raj Kumari, Naseem Akhtar. Studio affiliations
may have played a part in the choice of singers.
> The Great Naushad must be envious of Ghulam Haider for once.
>
There are enough MDs for Naushad to be envious of for that
G-adjective *one more wave of that white handkerchief here*
to be dropped.
- dn
VSR...@datainfosys.net
>
> <VSR...@datainfosys.net> wrote -
> >
> > I could not find this film in kosh, though there are 7 Gul Bakaawalis
> > listed upto 1987, none in Punjabi in 1939.
> >
>
> *HINDI* Film Geet Kosh covers Punjabi films? Or did Hamraaz
> send you its 'Rawat-special' edition?
At the end of kosh, bhojpuri, awadhi, rajasthani, magadhi,
maithili,chhatisgadi ... films are covered. Now that you pointed, I
start to understand that only variations of hindi are covered, not
distinct languages.
In that case, requesting someone to please verify the pstats from
punjabi kosh.
> > I find that Noorjehan's popular songs started coming from 42/44 dost,
> > khandan, etc. Why this gap of 1939-1944?
> Vitthal Das Panchotiya,
> Director of Gaibi Gola (1935 Kolkata film by Madan ('maadan')
> Theatres), claimed to Hamraaz that Noor Jehan had acted
> in his film but did not sing any songs. Soon later, she must have
> been back in Lahore. Why she ever went to Kolkata in
> 1935 is not clear to me. Lahore's film Industry did not pick
> up big-time on Hindi Films in the '30s and such films as
> did get made (eg; Majnu-1935) did not bother to release
> songs on 78.
Thank god for little mercies that this song survived.
Was Gul e bakawli made in bombay, or in lahore?
I recall some discussion in rmim about some 1947 or 48 film mentioned
as the first film made in Lahore. I think the reference could be that
after she crossed the border, she gave her first song (probably acted
too) in this film.
> Between her Punjabi Film Debut in Gul-e-Bakawali in 1939
are there other songs in this film by her?
> and her Hindi Film Debut in Khandan (1942), Noor Jehan
> did get to sing in two Punjabi Films for Ghulam Haider. Yamla
> Jat (1940) and Chaudhry (1941).
Seems that Ghulam Haider was the top md in punjabi films doing all the
films.
Was he Lahore based, or bombay?
> There was, thankfully, no
> unholy craze to feature her in every film. Other Punjabi films
> of that era -- Sassi Punnu, Dulla Bhatti, Guandi, Mera Mahi,
> Patwari, Ravi Paar, Mangti -- had songs by other great talents
> like Umra-o-zia Begum (Ghulam Haider's wife), Shamshad,
> Zeenat Begum, Raj Kumari, Naseem Akhtar.
I have heard names and hindi songs of others from above list, but
Umra-o-zia is a new name for me. Has she been to hindi singing? None
of her lyrics is in isb or posted at rmim.
> Studio affiliations
> may have played a part in the choice of singers.
>
> > The Great Naushad must be envious of Ghulam Haider for once.
> >
>
> There are enough MDs for Naushad to be envious of for that
> G-adjective to be dropped.
There is some story about SDB getting identity crisis because his
driver (or some servant) used to sing Rattan songs in front of him
pushing aside all his compostions.
you have used G-adjective with unknown entities like zia begum above.
But if is not acceptable to you for the real one, I can oblige you by
changing it to mausikaar-e-aazam Naushaad.
Considering your volume, it is sad that you could post only two songs
of him:
aaye bhii wo, gaye bhii wo Namaste 1943 Parul Ghosh
sun lo dil kaa afasaanaa Andaz 1949 Lata, Rafi
-Rawat
naniwadekar
Quickly -
Punjabi and Hindi Films were made in Lahore in the '30s.
Ghulam Haider was based in Lahore upto 1943/44, moved
to Mumbai, and returned to Lahore after the partition.
Umrao Zia Begum has sung songs in Hindi films. Not sure
whether they have survived. Search archives for 'umrau lost'.
Her songs in Punjabi are available.
> Ghulam Haider and the Great Naushad ...
>
I have no problem if you say "great singers like Lata, Asha
and Suman" but if you say "Lata, Asha and the Great
Suman" ... then big problem.
- dn
naniwadekar
<VSR...@datainfosys.net> wrote -
>
> Considering your volume, it is sad that you could post only
> two songs > of him:
>
For you to refer to anybody else's speed as 'volume' is
a bit like Lata calling some other voice 'sweet' .
I am shedding tears, blushing, jumping with joy, shouting
like crazy ... everything together. What an honour!
- dn
Pulkit
> HMV cassette says it is the first song of Malikaa-e-tarannum.
>
> I could not find this film in kosh, though there are 7 Gul Bakaawalis
> listed upto 1987, none in Punjabi in 1939.
>
> I don't know punjabi, yet I have noted down from what sounds she was
> producing.
>
> Corrections invited. meanings?
>
> Those who have not heard it, do listen to it. It is so captivating.
It is indeed a captivating number and Noor Jehan's voice is
well-polished. I remember that in one of programmes to pay a tribute
to Noor Jehan, they showed a clip where Noor Jehan was talking about
this song and rendered a few lines. As it was an interview, after
singing the first line "shala jawaniyaan maane" she replicated the
musical sound "da-da-da-da-dan" through her voice and then continued
singing.
She mentioned that this was her first song to be recorded.
Gul-e-Bakaavali(1939) had two other Noor Jehan songs- "pinjre wich
qaid jawaani" and "ik sohne jaye jungle wich."
Her first film song was in Pind Di Kuri(1935)- "Lang aaja Pattan
Channa." This was followed by- "nehaa laga ke ichak jai" (Misar Ka
Sitara, 1936?), "rang niralaa hai" (Mr. and Mrs.Bombay,1936?), "utho
aye musalmano" (fakhr-e-Islam,1937), "sohnaa dessan wichchon punjab"
(Heer Sayal,1937),"mere baabul daa" (Sassi Punnoo,1938).
After Gul-e-Bakawaali she sang for two more Punjabi films under the
guidance of Master Ghulam Haider- "Chaudhary" and "Yamla Jat." They
had popular numbers, the one to rule the limelight was "bas bas ve
dholnaa."
Cheers
Pulkit
V. S. Rawat
>
> VSR...@datainfosys.net wrote in message news:<40121B00...@datainfosys.net>...
> > HMV cassette says it is the first song of Malikaa-e-tarannum.
> >
> > I could not find this film in kosh, though there are 7 Gul Bakaawalis
> > listed upto 1987, none in Punjabi in 1939.
> >
> > I don't know punjabi, yet I have noted down from what sounds she was
> > producing.
> >
> > Corrections invited. meanings?
> >
> > Those who have not heard it, do listen to it. It is so captivating.
> ........................................................
>
> It is indeed a captivating number and Noor Jehan's voice is
> well-polished. I remember that in one of programmes to pay a tribute
> to Noor Jehan, they showed a clip where Noor Jehan was talking about
> this song and rendered a few lines. As it was an interview, after
> singing the first line "shala jawaniyaan maane" she replicated the
> musical sound "da-da-da-da-dan" through her voice and then continued
> singing.
> She mentioned that this was her first song to be recorded.
you are mentioning later in this post that
> her first film song was in Pind Di Kuri(1935)- "Lang aaja Pattan Channa."
What was the technology used for songs at that time. Were those
pre-1939 songs were not recorded or not released making this this 1939
song her first recorded song? If they are not available now, what a
loss it is for music lovers.
> Gul-e-Bakaavali(1939) had two other Noor Jehan songs- "pinjre wich
> qaid jawaani" and "ik sohne jaye jungle wich."
> Her first film song was in Pind Di Kuri(1935)- "Lang aaja Pattan
> Channa." This was followed by- "nehaa laga ke ichak jai" (Misar Ka
> Sitara, 1936?), "rang niralaa hai" (Mr. and Mrs.Bombay,1936?), "utho
> aye musalmano" (fakhr-e-Islam,1937), "sohnaa dessan wichchon punjab"
> (Heer Sayal,1937),"mere baabul daa" (Sassi Punnoo,1938).
> After Gul-e-Bakawaali she sang for two more Punjabi films under the
> guidance of Master Ghulam Haider- "Chaudhary" and "Yamla Jat." They
> had popular numbers, the one to rule the limelight was "bas bas ve
> dholnaa."
Coming to think of it, if you hear hindi film songs from 1931-1940,
and several even upto 1945, they have a distinct amaterurish style
that in most songs one can make out that these are from initial days
when music was learning to walk and almost anything could have a few
instrument playing and that was called a song. There was no fixed
style of mukha.Daa, interlude, stanza, interlude, stanza, mukha.Daa,
song-end structure in several songs. This structured style came
probably by great naushad in rattan, dard, dillagii, dularii around
42/44 and then it stuck and is still there in 90% of songs till date.
Apart from the above structured sequence in songs, I find that in pre-
Rattan songs, they used to sing any line different number of time,
and lines in same order in stanzaa in different number of times.
again, from rattan the style came that lines at same order in all the
stanza were sung the same no. of times. thus, if you have heard one
stanza, any other stanza will have only lyrics change, otherwise it
will be a replica of that one stanza.
What I feel is this shaalaa javaaniyaan has quite a structured style
as I mentioned above. It does not give a feel of an amateurish song.
If somebody listens to it without knowing its pstats, one can never
guess that it could be from 1939. I feel that this song is so polished
in structure, and in use of musical instruments that one could guess
it to be from 1945, or even from 1952 film.
Does anyone feel like this?
If yes, then, was punjabi music scene was somehow much advanced in
recording technology and in song structuring, compared to hindi music
scene? or was it personal mastery of Ghulam Haider, who is called
MASTER for reasons like this.
-Rawat
naniwadekar
"V. S. Rawat" <VSR...@datainfosys.net> wrote -
>
> What was the technology used for songs at that time. Were those
> pre-1939 songs were not recorded or not released making this this 1939
> song her first recorded song? If they are not available now, what a
> loss it is for music lovers.
>
Go through your 1930s HFGK volume. Upto 1937/38, very few
songs were released on 78s. Those which were not released on
discs are available only on the soundtrack. So if the video is lost,
the song is gone for ever.
>
> Coming to think of it, if you hear hindi film songs from 1931-1940,
> and several even upto 1945, they have a distinct amaterurish style
> that in most songs one can make out that these are from initial days
> when music was learning to walk and almost anything could have a few
> instrument playing and that was called a song. There was no fixed
> style of mukha.Daa, interlude, stanza, interlude, stanza, mukha.Daa,
> song-end structure in several songs. This structured style came
> probably by great naushad in rattan, dard, dillagii, dularii around
> 42/44 and then it stuck and is still there in 90% of songs till date.
>
Every sentence in the above paragraph is utter nonsense.
I have snipped few more stupid paragraphs from your post.
>
> Does anyone feel like this?
>
Many people feel like that. There is no dearth of idiots in
this world, after all.
> If yes, then, was punjabi music scene was somehow much advanced in
> recording technology and in song structuring, compared to hindi music
> scene? or was it personal mastery of Ghulam Haider, who is called
> MASTER for reasons like this.
>
If you listen to Tembe's song in Maya Machchhindra or songs
in Yahudi Kii Ladki or Dhoop Chhaaon, you will find that the
structure of Hindi song was already in place almost from day one.
Five lakhs 78s were cut from 1901 to 1950, it is estimated.
Bhimsen's guru's guru and his peers were active and had
established a standard which few people have matched over
last 50 years. Many of those classical giants had shaped even
light music during that era. Quite a few adjustments did take
place in the structure of songs but every intermediate stage
was a fully functional marvel by itself. Ghulam Haider's imprint
is strong in the manner of a batsman who may walk in at 500
for 2 and score 150 more runs himself. But if you think he
walked in at 2 runs for 6 wickets and then Naushad hit fours
and sixers to make music respectable, you are being an idiot.
Do you think giants like Mukesh, Talat and Kishore found
inspiration in Saigal because their musical sense was far
more primitive than Rawat's who was blessed with ARR's
music in his 'growing-up' process ? What a joke!!
- dn
V. S. Rawat
>
> "V. S. Rawat" <VSR...@datainfosys.net> wrote -
> >
> > What was the technology used for songs at that time. Were those
> > pre-1939 songs were not recorded or not released making this this 1939
> > song her first recorded song? If they are not available now, what a
> > loss it is for music lovers.
> >
>
> Go through your 1930s HFGK volume. Upto 1937/38, very few
> songs were released on 78s. Those which were not released on
> discs are available only on the soundtrack. So if the video is lost,
> the song is gone for ever.
do hmv and other recording companies making any attempts to take it
out from video and release it on cassettes/cds?
In hmv's old gem cassettes also, i find very few songs from before the
date given by you.
Coming to think about it, it is possible that as there was not
separate recording before 37/38, probably there was not concept of
music companies or audio rights. It means that hmv or other company
might not have the rights of such music.
> > Coming to think of it, if you hear hindi film songs from 1931-1940,
> > and several even upto 1945, they have a distinct amaterurish style
> > that in most songs one can make out that these are from initial days
> > when music was learning to walk and almost anything could have a few
> > instrument playing and that was called a song. There was no fixed
> > style of mukha.Daa, interlude, stanza, interlude, stanza, mukha.Daa,
> > song-end structure in several songs. This structured style came
> > probably by great naushad in rattan, dard, dillagii, dularii around
> > 42/44 and then it stuck and is still there in 90% of songs till date.
> Every sentence in the above paragraph is utter nonsense.
> I have snipped few more stupid paragraphs from your post.
The above summary comment is a good example of people talking like
providence issued commandments when their plain, simple logic runs
out.
But, members should sympathise with nani because his namesake, THE
GREAT NAUSHAD's reference always turns him off. And here he saw the
details of actual, proven contribution of the GREAT man to hindi music
which nani's long-forgotten favs could not do.
Gyan Dutt was forgotten in 10 years after bhakt surdas. whereas
MAUSIKII-E-AAZAM Naushad lives alongwith his name in spite of he
having given only three movies, all junks, in last thiry years
(Chambal Ki Rani, Dharamkanta, Guddu). That is the stamp of his
indisputable greatness.
If you ask any teenagers of nowadays to name some of the earliest
music personality, among singers he is most likely to name Saigal,
among m.d.s he is most likely to name naushad the great.
> > Does anyone feel like this?
>
> Many people feel like that. There is no dearth of idiots in
> this world, after all.
It means that you concede that there are a good number of idiots among
those listening to 1931-1948 music also.
> > If yes, then, was punjabi music scene was somehow much advanced in
> > recording technology and in song structuring, compared to hindi music
> > scene? or was it personal mastery of Ghulam Haider, who is called
> > MASTER for reasons like this.
> >
>
> If you listen to Tembe's song in Maya Machchhindra or songs
> in Yahudi Kii Ladki or Dhoop Chhaaon, you will find that the
> structure of Hindi song was already in place almost from day one.
I never said naushad INVENTED it.
I never said he was first to use it.
All those structures and styles were already there and were used in
some songs, but it did not set a trend. One example is Ghulam Haider's
shaanaa javaaniyaa.N itself, that has all the elements that I am
talking about. and it was in 1939 when naushad saab might be learning
how to wear a pant.
But, it were rattan, dard, dillagii, dulaarii, all by the great man,
in which such structuring and styles were used almost in toto, and
that set the trend for contemporary and then-future m.d.s
on a related note, I have often heard that it was Shankar-Jaikishan
duo which started the long interludes with their barsaat music. I have
now noticed earlier songs also, in which there were very noiceable,
and quite long interludes. Why did this credit stick to SJ?
> Five lakhs 78s were cut from 1901 to 1950, it is estimated.
> Bhimsen's guru's guru and his peers
who?
that is a long chaing you gave. who exactly do you mean?
> were active and had
> established a standard which few people have matched over
> last 50 years. Many of those classical giants had shaped even
> light music during that era.
of course, all above were the righful researchers and inventers.
The great naushad was the user and advertizer of these inventions.
> Quite a few adjustments did take
> place in the structure of songs but every intermediate stage
> was a fully functional marvel by itself. Ghulam Haider's imprint
> is strong in the manner of a batsman who may walk in at 500
> for 2 and score 150 more runs himself. But if you think he
> walked in at 2 runs for 6 wickets and then Naushad hit fours
> and sixers to make music respectable, you are being an idiot.
It is you that is getting confused that you expressed so clearly in
your example.
You are considering all then m.d.s at equal footing like cricket
players. I am not saying that. I think they had performed different
tasks and it was the great naushad who used and popularised their
results.
cricket example does not fit here. A football example will be more
proper in which all earlier m.d.s ran across the entire field
alongwith the ball, and finally passed it on to the great naushad who
gave it final kick that it fell in the goal.
> Do you think giants like Mukesh, Talat and Kishore found
> inspiration in Saigal because their musical sense was far
> more primitive than Rawat's who was blessed with ARR's
> music in his 'growing-up' process ? What a joke!!
They might as well be bowing to the rising sun or the shining sun of
their days. They had their careers at stake. jal me.n rah kar magar se
bair??? several female singers can vouch for that vis-a-vis lata jii.
Rawat has nothing to get from it, thus he is likely to be less
biassed.
And, before you give supari of my name to duba_ii waalaa bhaa_ii, let
me clarify to your closed eyes that I have not defamed saigal
attributing no or less talent to him. After all, I called him the
shining sun of that day.
Similarly, the Great Naushad was the GOD of music. Gyan dutt, Ghulam
Haider, and their tribe might be the father, mother, chachaa, taa_uu,
mausaa, phuuphaa, maamaa of music, but, you must be knowing of some
strange communities in western India who don't care a damn about
father and mother of god and pray only that elephant-headed
mouse-driving laDDuu-gobbling creature son.
-Rawat
Surjit Singh
>
>
> If you listen to Tembe's song in Maya Machchhindra or songs
> in Yahudi Kii Ladki or Dhoop Chhaaon, you will find that the
> structure of Hindi song was already in place almost from day one.
> Five lakhs 78s were cut from 1901 to 1950, it is estimated.
In earlier days the movies were just well-known picturized dramas by
well-known theatrical companies. And dramas with their structure have
been around before the movie era! But, hey, this is Rawat.
>
> - dn
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html
Pulkit
>> > It is indeed a captivating number and Noor Jehan's voice is
> > well-polished. I remember that in one of programmes to pay a tribute
> > to Noor Jehan, they showed a clip where Noor Jehan was talking about
> > this song and rendered a few lines. As it was an interview, after
> > singing the first line "shala jawaniyaan maane" she replicated the
> > musical sound "da-da-da-da-dan" through her voice and then continued
> > singing.
> > She mentioned that this was her first song to be recorded.
>
> you are mentioning later in this post that
>
> > her first film song was in Pind Di Kuri(1935)- "Lang aaja Pattan Channa."
>
> What was the technology used for songs at that time. Were those
> pre-1939 songs were not recorded or not released making this this 1939
> song her first recorded song? If they are not available now, what a
> loss it is for music lovers.
As Mr.Naniwadkar has clarified, all these songs were included and
released in the films but their soundtracks were not issued on RPMs,
thus creating a loss for all music lovers.
>
> > Gul-e-Bakaavali(1939) had two other Noor Jehan songs- "pinjre wich
> > qaid jawaani" and "ik sohne jaye jungle wich."
> > Her first film song was in Pind Di Kuri(1935)- "Lang aaja Pattan
> > Channa." This was followed by- "nehaa laga ke ichak jai" (Misar Ka
> > Sitara, 1936?), "rang niralaa hai" (Mr. and Mrs.Bombay,1936?), "utho
> > aye musalmano" (fakhr-e-Islam,1937), "sohnaa dessan wichchon punjab"
> > (Heer Sayal,1937),"mere baabul daa" (Sassi Punnoo,1938).
> > After Gul-e-Bakawaali she sang for two more Punjabi films under the
> > guidance of Master Ghulam Haider- "Chaudhary" and "Yamla Jat." They
> > had popular numbers, the one to rule the limelight was "bas bas ve
> > dholnaa."
>
> Coming to think of it, if you hear hindi film songs from 1931-1940,
> and several even upto 1945, they have a distinct amaterurish style
> that in most songs one can make out that these are from initial days
> when music was learning to walk and almost anything could have a few
> instrument playing and that was called a song. ......................
> What I feel is this shaalaa javaaniyaan has quite a structured style
> as I mentioned above. It does not give a feel of an amateurish song.
> If somebody listens to it without knowing its pstats, one can never
> guess that it could be from 1939. I feel that this song is so polished
> in structure, and in use of musical instruments that one could guess
> it to be from 1945, or even from 1952 film.
>
> Does anyone feel like this?
>
> If yes, then, was punjabi music scene was somehow much advanced in
> recording technology and in song structuring, compared to hindi music
> scene? or was it personal mastery of Ghulam Haider, who is called
> MASTER for reasons like this.
I think that the credit should go to MASTER Ghulam Haider than to the
entire Punjabi music scene. His music was certainly ahead of its
times. When one listens to songs as "saavan ke nazaare hai.n la la la
la laa" (Shamshad Begum &Chorus, Khazanchi,1941) or "ham khele.nge
aa.Nkh micholii" (Noor Jehan, Khandan,1942) and many more they could
easily have been accomodated in films even a decade later and would
still have been popular.
Surjit Singh
<DELETED>
Thanks for reminding us why so few people agreed with you in your
earlier sojourn!
> -Rawat
naniwadekar
> out from video and release it on cassettes/cds?
>
> separate recording before 37/38, probably there was not concept of
> music companies or audio rights. It means that hmv or other company
> might not have the rights of such music.
>
Quickly - HMV has done lot of good work but they can do
much better. With all their money and dedicated staff, they
*should* do better. It is futile to expect too much from HMV.
The situation will only get worse as the ignorant younger
generation, which believes music started with Naushad,
takes over at HMV.
Audio rights did exist in '30s. K C Dey was signed with HMV.
But Hindusthan Records had rights to songs in Dhoop Chhaaon.
So 'andhe kii lathi', sung by K C Dey in the film, was issued
in Saigal's voice on Hindustan Record's 78. This is but one
example. I am not very conversant with this topic, though.
Still, your guess that audio rights did not exist is wrong.
>
> But, members should sympathise with nani because his namesake,
> THE GREAT NAUSHAD's reference always turns him off.
>
Naushad is my namesake? His name has two components : nau...
and ali; my name has three : 'gr...' dh... nani... No overlap there.
>
> the great naushad who gave it final kick that it fell in the goal.
>
Naushad has kicked the ball several times in his own-goal
making the task of his opponents easier.
> song-end structure in several songs. This structured style came
> probably by great naushad in rattan, dard, dillagii, dularii around
> 42/44 and then it stuck and is still there in 90% of songs till date.
>
Every md knew the 'structured' style but upto 1950, they
were not slave to that style. They were not afraid of originality.
Second, you say Naushad 'probably' brought structured style
(you are not sure); then you call him the goal-scorer (you are
suddenly very sure).
Finally - If you must spout nonsense, at least get your facts
correct. By now you should know that Dard, Dillagi and Dulari
were light-years away from 42-44 time-frame.
- dn
V. S. Rawat
>
> "V. S. Rawat" <VSR...@datainfosys.net> wrote -
> >
> > do hmv and other recording companies making any attempts to take it
> > out from video and release it on cassettes/cds?
> >
> > Coming to think about it, it is possible that as there was not
> > separate recording before 37/38, probably there was not concept of
> > music companies or audio rights. It means that hmv or other company
> > might not have the rights of such music.
> >
>
> Quickly - HMV has done lot of good work but they can do
> much better. With all their money and dedicated staff, they
> *should* do better. It is futile to expect too much from HMV.
> The situation will only get worse as the ignorant younger
> generation, which believes music started with Naushad,
> takes over at HMV.
But rest assured that nobody older than the naushad generation has the
i.q. level and knowledge level to use technology to extract
information from that 70 year old material.
> Audio rights did exist in '30s. K C Dey was signed with HMV.
> But Hindusthan Records had rights to songs in Dhoop Chhaaon.
> So 'andhe kii lathi', sung by K C Dey in the film, was issued
> in Saigal's voice on Hindustan Record's 78. This is but one
> example. I am not very conversant with this topic, though.
> Still, your guess that audio rights did not exist is wrong.
In this case, it is a relief to find my doubts wrong
what a single-minded person you are. you are so much into ancient
music, still you are as ignorant about related issues as 1950+
generation is about gyan dutt.
learn about it and share with us. your existing sources of old songs
must be knowing everything about it. just that you never asked them
the right questions. They would like a good chat on this topic
anytime.
> > But, members should sympathise with nani because his namesake,
> > THE GREAT NAUSHAD's reference always turns him off.
> >
>
> Naushad is my namesake? His name has two components : nau...
> and ali; my name has three : 'gr...' dh... nani... No overlap there.
Linda goldman's soul must be restless in heaven not able to understand
how the names of such a great person like naushad and such a
greatness-less (I just coined it) person like you can start will same
letter.
but i get your point. your name starts with d. n is the start of your
sirname that you got from your ancestors thus at least some good
things have come in you. otherwise you would have been
greatness-devoid person.
> > the great naushad who gave it final kick that it fell in the goal.
> >
>
> Naushad has kicked the ball several times in his own-goal
> making the task of his opponents easier.
When a person has given 100s of platinum/golden/diamond jubilee films,
a few mistakes do not matter.
total no. of days for which his films has run in packed theatres will
be higher than the total no. of days in gyan dutt's 5 lives.
> > song-end structure in several songs. This structured style came
> > probably by great naushad in rattan, dard, dillagii, dularii around
> > 42/44 and then it stuck and is still there in 90% of songs till date.
> >
>
> Every md knew the 'structured' style but upto 1950, they
> were not slave to that style. They were not afraid of originality.
originality as in hitting ball in someone's own goal.
you call "anuraadha o anuraadhaa" an originality. It can only be
called original in the sense that it was the first running commentary
in a film.
> Second, you say Naushad 'probably' brought structured style
> (you are not sure); then you call him the goal-scorer (you are
> suddenly very sure).
>
> Finally - If you must spout nonsense, at least get your facts
> correct. By now you should know that Dard, Dillagi and Dulari
> were light-years away from 42-44 time-frame.
Get your physical units correct. You forgot that I am a qualified
engineer.
A light year is a measure of distance, not of time.
if you know any person with a ph.d. in physics, become his disciple.
All I said was that this putting-sense-in-music was popularised by THE
GREAT NAUSHAD in Rattan which was a 44 movie. Then he continued that
in dard, dulari, dillagi and almost all his movies, till the entire
breed of m.d.s was following him in using this style.
if I had mentioned all the movies that the great man did in 1940s, the
server would have broken down due to excessive data-transfer.
take anamol gha.Dii that is 46 film, much near to rattan than
dulari/dillagii. in anamol gha.Dii there is only one unstructured song
(at "meraa pahiyaa aise bhaage"). all others were totally structured.
shahjahaa.N both saigal song are totally structured, and that is why
they are the best known songs of "the father of singing" even today
when people don't even know the names of films in which the same
singer has given voice to gyan dutt's peTi-Dabbaa.
-Rawat
V S Rawat
The first song of the great singer got posted.
Request was made for correction in the lyrics as it was in a language
not understood by the cnotributor.
Request was made for correction in the pstat as correct kosh was not
with the contributor.
--------------
On the other ends of the wire, there were dozens of alleged fans of
the singer. They eat her music, drink her music, wake with her music,
sleep with her music. They live by her music and claim to die for her
music.
Even a series had been started devoted to her songs, and it is going
great guns, sporting about 50 songs by dozens of members.
Even a website had been created for archiving her songs.
--------------
But, only two of those dozens of alleged fans came forward to share
their knowledge in this thread (discounting shaakhaa pramukh's off the
cuff off-thread remark.)
Rest could not feel moved by this song?
- why should we?
It is her first one?
- so what?
In a language not known to the contibutor?
- so what?
lyrics may need correction?
- we are not oblising.
you know that language?
- we know many things.
pstats may need correction?
- we are not abliging.
you have the information.
- I have many things.
why are you doing it?
- he posts so many songs we can't attend.
but wasn't it posted a single song in a separate thread, and hasn't he
made only two lyrics post for the last fortnight?
- our memories are with us.
won't you ask him to send this song for you to enjoy?
- we will get it from somewhere else.
won't Noorjehan's music be the only loser in all this?
- GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR BACK! you double stupid!.
--------------
Could it be that only this song did not entral her alleged fans, or is
it so that in general her songs and singing have got forgotten?
Has Malikaa-e-Tarannum lost her noor?
or does it reveal some different aspect of division, lobbying,
partisanism, if-you-love-me-you-have-to love-my-cat, that has taken
place in this newsgroup.
Could it be that she does retain her glory and will retain till
eternity, but only those songs loose their sheen which fall in the
ears of some particular person?
-----------------
May it be so.
Heartfelt thanks to two fans of the great lady who came forward to
attend her song.
-Rawat
Surjit Singh
V S Rawat wrote:
--
Urzung Khan
VSR...@datainfosys.net wrote:
>
> I don't know punjabi, yet I have noted down from what sounds she was
> producing.
>
> Corrections invited. meanings?
>
> ----------------
>
> % BOL ANAMOL: #12140 [V S Rawat]
> %
> \startsong
> %stat{vsrp13401, 1.00, 17/01/2004}%
> \stitle{shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe}%
shaalaa jawaaniyaa.N maaNe.N
maaNe is used for cat/billii in Punjabi
> \film{Punjabi-Film(Gul-E-Bakawali)}%
> \year{1939}%
> \starring{}%
Salim Raza, Hem Lata, Suraiya Jabeen,
Baby Noor Jahan
> \singer{Noorjehan}%
> \music{Ghulam Haider}%
> \lyrics{Wali Sahab}%
> %
> % Contributor: BOL ANAMOL #12140 [V S Rawat]
> %
> \printtitle
> #indian
> %
> ( shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
> shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
> akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai
> akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai pii lai ) \-2
aakhaa na mo.Dii.n
aakhaa= what has been said/requested/ordered.
na mo.Dii.n= do not turn down
> shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
>
> ( akhiyaa.N wich akhiyaa.N paa ke
> tohafaa miThaa_ii laa ke ) \-2
taubaa nuu.N phaa_ii laa ke
(phaaii=paaNsii
> pighalii haay jannat pii jaa \-2
hu_ii
> kaliyaa.N dii asamat pii jaa \-2
> jii lai do\-chaar dihaa.De jii lai
> jii lai do\-chaar dihaa.De jii lai jii lai
> shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
>
> shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
> akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai
> akhaalaa mo.Dii pii lai pii lai
> shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
>
> ( pagale mu.Nh\-zor jawaanii
> mu.D\-mu.D ke ha.Nsanii aanii ) \-2
mu.D\-mu.D ke hath naii.n aanii
> saaqii taa bhar paimaanaa \-2
saaqii to.N pha.D paimaanaa
> pii lai saramast zamaanaa
jawaanaa
Surjit Singh
>
>
>
> VSR...@datainfosys.net wrote:
>
>>
>>I don't know punjabi, yet I have noted down from what sounds she was
>>producing.
>>
>>Corrections invited. meanings?
>>
>>----------------
>>
>>% BOL ANAMOL: #12140 [V S Rawat]
>>%
>>\startsong
>>%stat{vsrp13401, 1.00, 17/01/2004}%
>>\stitle{shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe}%
>
>
> shaalaa jawaaniyaa.N maaNe.N
>
> maaNe is used for cat/billii in Punjabi
>
Not in this line. Here it means enjoy kare.n
--
Urzung Khan
Surjit Singh wrote:
>
> Urzung Khan wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > VSR...@datainfosys.net wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>I don't know punjabi, yet I have noted down from what sounds she was
> >>producing.
> >>
> >>Corrections invited. meanings?
> >>
> >>----------------
> >>
> >>% BOL ANAMOL: #12140 [V S Rawat]
> >>%
> >>\startsong
> >>%stat{vsrp13401, 1.00, 17/01/2004}%
> >>\stitle{shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe}%
> >
> >
> > shaalaa jawaaniyaa.N maaNe.N
> >
> > maaNe is used for cat/billii in Punjabi
> >
>
> Not in this line. Here it means enjoy kare.n
I am confused by 'Not in this line'.
Wrong:shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe
Why:maaNe is used for cat/billii in Punjabi
Correct:shaalaa jawaaniyaa.N maaNe.N
Surjit Singh
>>>>%
>>>>\startsong
>>>>%stat{vsrp13401, 1.00, 17/01/2004}%
>>>>\stitle{shaalaa jawaaniyaa maaNe}%
>>>
>>>
>>> shaalaa jawaaniyaa.N maaNe.N
>>>
>>> maaNe is used for cat/billii in Punjabi
>>>
>>
>>Not in this line. Here it means enjoy kare.n
>
>
> I am confused by 'Not in this line'.
Sorry. I misunderstood. Delete my comment.
By the way, in the Indian Panjab, the word maaNo is primarily used by
children to indicate cat. I am sure it comes from the sound Panjabi cats
make, miyaauu.N
QUIZ: Pick your favorite singer and name a song in which s/he was asked
to make a animal or bird sound. Once Rafi complained to Ravi that he
(Rafi) was asked to make doggy sounds!
Surjit Singh
>
> QUIZ: Pick your favorite singer and name a song in which s/he was asked
> to make a animal or bird sound. Once Rafi complained to Ravi that he
Hints:
chi.Diyaa bole - - -
- - karatii aa_ii chi.Diyaa
- - bole koyaliyaa
> (Rafi) was asked to make doggy sounds!
>
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
Visit my home page at
http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html