Runa Laila
Nilesh Savargaonkar
Runa Laila was one of the female singers who was good but was suppressed by the
domination of Hindi film music by Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosale.
I don't know if Lata/Asha took any extra efforts to suppress Runa Laila's singing
career in Hindi movies but I have heard stories that Lata specifically wiped out
competition from Suman Kalyanpur who was equally good. I was listening to songs
from Gharaunda and Runa Laila sounds quite good. A few questions which came to my mind were:
Did she give playback for any other movie? Was she the lead
female singer for Chitchor?(or was it Hemlata?) What happened to her later?
Who were the MDs for Gharaunda and Chitchor?
- Nilesh
asch...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg
Runa Laila was first introduced to Hindi film music by Kalyanji-Anand Ji in a
movie produced by Brij (the guy who produced Victoria 203) *ing Navin Nischal.
The song was something "....lai hoon tujhase hazar" and in Disco rythem. Song
was very popular in mid 70s. She did well but as you have said "this Lata/Asha
onslaught " drove her away back to Pakistan.
Lata & Asha have been quite smart in wiping out competetion and thus any threat
to their supremacy. If they sensed that a particular MD was trying to promote
some other female singer, Lata will start harrasing (say not reach for
recording), send signals to a producer that if that MD is composing, she will
not sing). Only OPN dared to challange her and survived, otherwise CR, SJ all
tried to survive withourt her and lost badly.
In 70s they had complete hold of Hindi songs; Lata promoting LP (thus LP would
make Lata sing even caberret songs. This Lata-LP association not only killed
the Hindi music but Lata made a fool of herself), and Asha-marrying RD and thus
in 70s, 80 these two ruled. Occasionally BL will also come and disappear.
Many MDs tried to introduce new talent in Hindi such as Kanchan, Hemlata, Vani
Jairam, but unfortunately none of them survived Lata/Asha onslaught
R.S.Chandel
Ramesh Hariharan
asch...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg wrote
> In article <4qcjqd$6...@news.iastate.edu>, nil...@iastate.edu (Nilesh Savargaonkar) writes:
> > Runa Laila was one of the female singers who was good but was suppressed by the
> > domination of Hindi film music by Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosale.
> to their supremacy. If they sensed that a particular MD was trying to promote
> some other female singer, Lata will start harrasing (say not reach for
> Jairam, but unfortunately none of them survived Lata/Asha onslaught
> R.S.Chandel
All the controversial stuff I have heard deals more with Lata. Infact, Asha
herself was the victim of her "didi's" all-conquering greed. One has to
sincerely wonder how people still have high regards for Lata in the light of
the abysmal extremes she adopted inorder to keep the competition at bay.
There are good reasons why I feel GREAT about being a hard-core Rafian. The man
scaled the peaks of popularity from 40's-60's, but handled defeat during his
later years with class and dignity. He never interfered with the career of other
singers and kept himself sacredly removed from controversies. While his benevolence
towards upcoming music-directors is well known, he even offered several
helpful tips to a then-not-so-famous Mahendra Kapoor.
I wish I was a more objective listener. But somehow the lack of character on the
part of the singer does interfere with my listening pleasures. Maybe I should
stop thinking so much :-)
Ramesh Hariharan
Yesudas fan and a Die-hard Rafian
Ravi Krishna
: All the controversial stuff I have heard deals more with Lata. Infact, Asha
: sincerely wonder how people still have high regards for Lata in the light of
I have also read / heard a lot of Lata's greed to stay as # 1. There are
times when I also get disgusted by Lata's behaviour but if you think
ratioanlly Lata is not the only one who tried to prevent a new talent from
coming up. There are enough evidence of other artists also indulging in it.
Some examples:-
1. Shankar-Jaikishan according to Laxmi-Pyare were very sensitive of LP
especially after LP's success if Dosti (1964). They passed quite negative
remarks about LP.
2. LP themselves were accused of it when Nadeem-Shravan blowed them away in
1990 with Aaashiqui.
3. Annuradha Paudwal who accused Lata of never allowing her , was herself
accused of manipulations by all who at some time had the misfortune of
singing in T series company.
4. Amitabh Bachan during his peak was accused of chopping mercilessly all the
good scenes of rival actors if he felt he will be overshadowed.
5. Like point(4) above the same was said of Dilip Kumar also for the film
Sangarsh where he felt threatened by Sanjeev Kumar.
By the way all those singers who complained of lata's manipulation were , in
my opinon no where near Lata as to be a genuine challenge. To name a few:-
1. Sharada
2. Vani Jayaram
3. Runa Laiala
4. Suman Kalyanpuri ( OK- she was quite close to lata).
5. Anuradha Paudwal
6. Sulakshna Pandit
It would have been interesting to note how Lata would have tackled Asha had
she not been her sister. As far as I know they too had some rivarly but
since it was a family matter it never assumed the propotions of a true
ruthless competetion.
--
S. Ravi Krishna
Anand Kuppuswamy
Hi!
In article <1996Jun2...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg>, asch...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg
says...
>
>Runa Laila was first introduced to Hindi film music by Kalyanji-Anand Ji in
a
>movie produced by Brij (the guy who produced Victoria 203) *ing Navin
Nischal.
>The song was something "....lai hoon tujhase hazar" and in Disco rythem.
Song
>was very popular in mid 70s. She did well but as you have said "this
Lata/Asha
>onslaught " drove her away back to Pakistan.
>
>Lata & Asha have been quite smart in wiping out competetion and thus any
threat
>to their supremacy. If they sensed that a particular MD was trying to
promote
>some other female singer, Lata will start harrasing (say not reach for
>recording), send signals to a producer that if that MD is composing, she
will
>not sing). Only OPN dared to challange her and survived, otherwise CR, SJ
all
>tried to survive withourt her and lost badly.
>
>In 70s they had complete hold of Hindi songs; Lata promoting LP (thus LP
would
>make Lata sing even caberret songs. This Lata-LP association not only
killed
>the Hindi music but Lata made a fool of herself), and Asha-marrying RD and
thus
>in 70s, 80 these two ruled. Occasionally BL will also come and disappear.
>
>Many MDs tried to introduce new talent in Hindi such as Kanchan, Hemlata,
Vani
>Jairam, but unfortunately none of them survived Lata/Asha onslaught
>
>R.S.Chandel
I too have heard about this 'having happened'! I can imagine the
'frustration' of the other 'talented' singers ... Vani Jayaram, Runa Laila,
Suman Kalyanpur etc. I do acknowledge the fact that the 'Mangeshkar Sisters'
were probably two of the best female singers our country has ever produced
... but "other 'good performers' deserve their due too"! ...
... IMO, our ex-MDs should not have 'patronized' Lata/ Asha to the
extent that they start 'dictating the terms'! ... Shows what 'super-stardom'
can do to some people!! There were other 'unsung-singers' who were
'as gifted if not better' than the Mangeshkar sisters! What happened was bad
... 'for music - in general' and it should have been 'thwarted' or
'nipped at the bud'!! I can only blame our 'MDs' and the 'Film Producers' &
'Directors' for it!
regards,
Anand
Ravi Krishna
: In article <1996Jun2...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg>, asch...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg
: >
: >Runa Laila was first introduced to Hindi film music by Kalyanji-Anand Ji in
: a
: >movie produced by Brij (the guy who produced Victoria 203) *ing Navin
: Nischal.
: >The song was something "....lai hoon tujhase hazar" and in Disco rythem.
: Song
If I am not mistaken the song is "ek se badkar ek main lai hoon tofhe anek".
The film was Ek se Badkar ek (1976).
--
S. Ravi Krishna
Nitin Sharma
Ramesh Hariharan (hari...@crd.ge.com) wrote:
: One has to
: sincerely wonder how people still have high regards for Lata in the light of
: the abysmal extremes she adopted inorder to keep the competition at bay.
A part of the reason could be that most of Lata's phenomenal,
high-quality output was in the period when Lata was establishing
herself in the film-musical scene - that is, during the 50's and part
of 60's (and I say this at the risk of being branded a
"I-listen-n-like-only-50s stuff-music-made-after... guy" :-) )
That is, she is respected for what she produced before she took to
systematically eliminating "competition".
Human nature makes people do strange things - even an amazingly
talented Lata had a feeling of insecurity lurking deep within.
Though I agree that her alleged monopolizing the female playback singing
doesn't reflect well on the great performer she was (not is, for Lata of
now isn't even a pale shadow of what she used to be)
: I wish I was a more objective listener. But somehow the lack of character on the
: stop thinking so much :-)
Well, I wish she hadn't done what she did to suppress talent.
-nitin
Shailesh Phansalkar
In article <1996Jun2...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg>,
<asch...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg> wrote:
>In article <4qcjqd$6...@news.iastate.edu>, nil...@iastate.edu (Nilesh Savargaonkar) writes:
>>
>> Runa Laila was one of the female singers who was good but was suppressed by the
>> domination of Hindi film music by Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosale.
>> career in Hindi movies but I have heard stories that Lata specifically wiped out
>> competition from Suman Kalyanpur who was equally good. I was listening to songs
>> from Gharaunda and Runa Laila sounds quite good. A few questions which came to my mind were:
>> Did she give playback for any other movie? Was she the lead
>> female singer for Chitchor?(or was it Hemlata?) What happened to her later?
>> Who were the MDs for Gharaunda and Chitchor?
>> *****************************
>movie produced by Brij (the guy who produced Victoria 203) *ing Navin Nischal.
>The song was something "....lai hoon tujhase hazar" and in Disco rythem. Song
>onslaught " drove her away back to Pakistan.
>
>Lata & Asha have been quite smart in wiping out competetion and thus any threat
>to their supremacy. If they sensed that a particular MD was trying to promote
>some other female singer, Lata will start harrasing (say not reach for
>recording), send signals to a producer that if that MD is composing, she will
>not sing). Only OPN dared to challange her and survived, otherwise CR, SJ all
>tried to survive withourt her and lost badly.
>
>In 70s they had complete hold of Hindi songs; Lata promoting LP (thus LP would
>make Lata sing even caberret songs. This Lata-LP association not only killed
>the Hindi music but Lata made a fool of herself), and Asha-marrying RD and thus
>in 70s, 80 these two ruled. Occasionally BL will also come and disappear.
>
>Many MDs tried to introduce new talent in Hindi such as Kanchan, Hemlata, Vani
>Jairam, but unfortunately none of them survived Lata/Asha onslaught
>
>R.S.Chandel
Top seven funny things about the above post (in order of appearance!)
1> Runa Laila was drove away back to PAKISTAN. (BANGLADESH ???)
2> Lata-LP association KILLED Hindi music.
3> Lata made a FOOL of herself.
4> Asha-marrying RD and THUS in 70s and 80s these two ruled.
5> Occasionally BL will also come and disappear. (who's BL ?)
6> Many MDs tried to introduce new TALENT in Hindi such as Kanchan,
.... whatever.
7> UNFORTUNATELY none of them surivived Lata/Asha onslaught.
by god, this is the funniest mail I have ever read on RMIM.
Chan(d)el sahab, maan gaye aap ko. i suggest you start writing
script for comedy films.
- shailesh
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subtlety is the art of saying what you think and getting out of the way
before it is understood.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rajesh Jyothiswaran
In article <1996Jun2...@alpha.ntu.ac.sg>,
B
>The song was something "....lai hoon tujhase hazar" and in Disco rythem. Song
>was very popular in mid 70s. She did well but as you have said "this Lata/Asha
>onslaught " drove her away back to Pakistan.
Actually, its Bangladesh.
Rajesh.
rebala gopinath
In article <31CAA0...@crd.ge.com>,
Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@phoenix.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
>All the controversial stuff I have heard deals more with Lata. Infact, Asha
>the abysmal extremes she adopted inorder to keep the competition at bay.
I guess to be a Lata fan one has to ignore the personal traits of Lata.
She seems to have had problems with most of the MD's one time or other,
e.g SDB, OPN, Ravi, SJ, CR, Anil Biswas etc who all gave her some of her
best songs. Madan Mohan and SalillC seem to be the exceptions in this
regard. Her problems with Rafi are also well known. Practically every
female singer who didn't do as well attribute it to Lata's interference.
(How much of it is true is another matter)
I remember reading a Mubarak Begum interview few years back when she referred
to the steps taken by Lata & Asha to keep her out.
O.P. Nayyar seems to have been a special target. It seems he was unofficially
banned as an MD (i.e no established singer would sing for him) for a while in
the mid-50's on Lata's insistence. It is the greatness of O.P. Nayyar that
he still succeeded and never had a bitter word about Lata. This has been told
to me by a knowledgable RMIMer. All errors are mine.
But once one listens to her numerous gems all this seems to fade away.
Cheers,
Kalyan
>There are good reasons why I feel GREAT about being a hard-core Rafian. The man
>scaled the peaks of popularity from 40's-60's, but handled defeat during his
>later years with class and dignity. He never interfered with the career of other
>singers and kept himself sacredly removed from controversies. While his benevolence
>towards upcoming music-directors is well known, he even offered several
>helpful tips to a then-not-so-famous Mahendra Kapoor.
>
>I wish I was a more objective listener. But somehow the lack of character on the
>part of the singer does interfere with my listening pleasures. Maybe I should
>stop thinking so much :-)
>
>
Mahesh Chaubal
> nil...@iastate.edu (Nilesh Savargaonkar) writes:
>>
>> Runa Laila was one of the female singers who was good but was suppressed by the
>> domination of Hindi film music by Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosale.
>> from Gharaunda and Runa Laila sounds quite good. A few questions which came to my mind were:
>> Did she give playback for any other movie? Was she the lead
>> female singer for Chitchor?(or was it Hemlata?) What happened to her later?
>> Who were the MDs for Gharaunda and Chitchor?
>> *****************************
>Runa Laila was first introduced to Hindi film music by Kalyanji-Anand Ji in a
>movie produced by Brij (the guy who produced Victoria 203) *ing Navin Nischal.
>was very popular in mid 70s. She did well but as you have said "this Lata/Asha
>onslaught " drove her away back to Pakistan.
Hi Nilesh:
I would like to add a couple of points to this summary. As was mention-
ed by R. Chandel, Runa Laila did lend voice to a couple of hindi movies. But
other than Gharonda, her main fame in India was due to her non-filmi albums
such as 'The Loves of Runa Laila' and 'Super Runa Laila', which had massive
hits such as 'Dum-a-dum mast kalandar' and 'O mera babu chhail chhabila'.
I personally do not think that Asha/Lata would have been deterred
by Runa Laila, mainly because all R.L. represented to the desi music fans
was a change, with her distinct singing style. Her limited success story I
guess would be in parallel to Nazia Hasan, who too had couple of filmi hits
(Qurbani, Star), but mainly relied on private albums.
Other than that R.L. was hugely popular in Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Now for the other questions;
GHaronda MD was Jaidev. Chitchor MD was Ravindra Jain. And the playback for
Chitchor was by Hemlata.
-Mahesh-
Nilesh Savargaonkar
>All the controversial stuff I have heard deals more with Lata. Infact, Asha
>herself was the victim of her "didi's" all-conquering greed
I read a recent story about Lata & Asha. The song 'Kuchh naa kaho' from 1942: a
Love story was first recorded in Kavita Krishnamurti's voice but in the movie, it
appeared only in Lata's voice. Probably Lata liked the song and got it
recorded in her own voice. On the other hand, Anupama Deshpande had sung in
place of Asha for some movie (forgot the name) because Asha could not come for
the recording. Later, the MD wanted to record it in Asha's voice. But Asha
listened to Anupama's version of the song and told the MD that it is good so
let's keep it like that! One more reason for me to like Asha more than Lata!
- Nilesh
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
In article <4qhm8c$m...@news.iastate.edu> nil...@iastate.edu (Nilesh
Savargaonkar) writes:
> On the other hand, Anupama Deshpande had sung in place of Asha for
> some movie (forgot the name) because Asha could not come for the
> recording. Later, the MD wanted to record it in Asha's voice. But
> Asha listened to Anupama's version of the song and told the MD that
> it is good so let's keep it like that! One more reason for me to
> like Asha more than Lata!
I believe that song is the KK-Anupama duet in 'Kaash' --
O yaara, tu pyaaro.n se hai pyaara...
A very typical and nice Rajesh Roshan song.
Ciao,
ND
\____Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu____/
Office: ISIP, MSU, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road, MS State MS 39762
Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2689
\_http://www.isip.msstate.edu/____Disc Space - The Final Frontier..._/
David Anthony Windsor
Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@crd.ge.com> writes:
>All the controversial stuff I have heard deals more with Lata. Infact, Asha
>herself was the victim of her "didi's" all-conquering greed. One has to
>sincerely wonder how people still have high regards for Lata in the light of
>the abysmal extremes she adopted inorder to keep the competition at bay.
I never realised that an understanding of musical genius should be based
on the character of the artist, rather than on what they produce.
>There are good reasons why I feel GREAT about being a hard-core
>Rafian. The man scaled the peaks of popularity from 40's-60's,
>but handled defeat during his later years with class and dignity.
>He never interfered with the career of other
>singers and kept himself sacredly removed from controversies.
Other than of course writing off to Guiness Book of Records with a false
claim to be the singer with the greatest number of recorded songs,
following the listing of Lata (not, to be noted, at her own doing).
'Sacredly removed' from controversies?
And as far as Lataji and her attitude towards pretenders, if she was
able to keep people out (I have read that Runa Laila returned to Bangladesh
after finding interest in her from MD's was disappearing - she had
previously been thinking of becoming an Indian citizen - but wasn't a lot
of the impact of Runa Laila from her far greater TV 'presence?) surely it
only shows the hold that Lataji had over MD's, and the sure knowledge they
had of who was the greatest. OP Nayyer, of course, was the only exception
- but a clear example that it was in the MD's power to stand up to her.
In all I find it very easy to ignore supposed faults of character when it
comes to a person with a talent that overshadows all.
And in any case, who wants to listen to mortals, when one can hear the
song of angels?
David
piya tose naina lag re...
Harish Suvarna
Lata's talent was immense. Types of Runa Laila,Nazia hasan,hemalata, Sharads,
etc do not come 'nazdeek'. Forggggggget about they being competitors.
But still, the fact that she knowingly tried to stop other
talent does not escape my mind. The relationship between the fan and star
is not just limited to the work. The fan really loves the star. The fan defends
the star despite knowing that he/she does'nt get anything concrete in return.
So now what happened is that the fan can not defend the Star because the Star
is ethically wrong. We are not speaking of personal life of LM. We are speaking
of what she has done in the Work. There is no necessity at all to do any such
thing as she was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar superior and talented compared to others.
I too really wish that all we are talking is just a mashaala rumour
and is baseless.
-Harish
kuch to log kahenge logon ka kaam hai kahana??
Ramesh Hariharan
Harish Suvarna wrote:
>There is no necessity at all to do any such
> thing as she was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar superior and talented compared >to others.
You didn't have Asha in mind when you wrote this, did you ? Asha
easily has greater range and flexibility in her voice.
YesRafidas
Harish Suvarna
Yes, Asha was'nt there in my mind when I wrote that.
But what I feel is that Lata's voice is 'thinner' than
Asha's and hence sweeter. Asha has additional repertoire
like masti songs, club songs etc etc. But when it comes
to the bottomline, I would say it is Lata and then only
Asha. I do not have many cassets of Asha (I always bypassed
her section and searched for some more from Lata).
But of the late I changed a little bit.
Why did LM decide not to contend for Filmfare awards from
1970 onwards?
-Harish
rebala gopinath
In article <31CE90...@crd.ge.com>,
Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@phoenix.princeton.edu> wrote:
>Harish Suvarna wrote:
>>There is no necessity at all to do any such
>> thing as she was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar superior and talented compared >to others.
>> -Harish
>
>You didn't have Asha in mind when you wrote this, did you ? Asha
>easily has greater range and flexibility in her voice.
By range, if you mean vocal range, I would disagree. Her voice breaks
down at relatively higher notes, IMHO. This is not to suggest she is not
a great singer, doesn't have great songs etc. Her versatility doesn't
seem to have helped her much as most Hindi songs tend to be of a limited
range (not vocal). It's helped her more in duets than solos, I think.
Talking of versatility how could we leave out Geeta Dutt, IMHO the most
versatile female singer in Hindi films. Sh e has effectively sung both
Lata-like and Asha-like songs. This is particulary true of her pre-marriage
songs. ( What a collosal tragedy that marriage was for two of the greatest
artists in Hindi films and consequently for Hindi films!).
Coming back to Lata, she might have a limited range of songs but that
constitutes a majority of songs. Another nice thing about Lata is her
selectiveness and awareness of her limitations(till the Shraddhanjali series
:-). While Asha has a large number of bad songs (lack of options,
experimentation etc) one would find a lot fewer from Lata.
All IMHO.
Regards,
Kalyan
Vijay Tatkar
An interesting version of the Kuchh naa kaho story I heard was:
RDB recorded this in Kavita Krishnamurthy's voice because Lata wasnt
available, didnt want to do it... whatever. However, RDB wished Lata
had sung it. Nevertheless, it was Kavita K's rendition that was used
for the picturisation.
Later, as 1942 ALS turned out to be RDB's last venture, V.V. Chopra
approached Lata with a request to sing it as tribute to RDB, which she
did. And thats how her version got in.
Clearly, the rumor/side-story has a bitter/sweet angle to it. For
months Kavita K. was rumored to have gone around saying how "I'm
thrilled that Lata -whose songs I used to imitate- has honored me by
singing one of mine".
Dunno what the facts are (but they probably arent as juicy as the
gossip, anyway!!). BTW, while on this thread, does anyone have any
really substantive thing to offer on this Lata dominance angle.
Someone had once hinted- in excerpts from some Lata biography,
penned during one of her tours- that Lata had divulged her side of
the stories. Might be interesting to hear both sides of the story.
Maybe all ya bitter folks might grant her the benefit of the doubt,
until then. [After all, artists in classical arena have said many
more outrageous things and gotten away with it and this hasnt
diminished their star-following one bit. Take Kishori for instance.
Please!]
Vijay
In article m...@news.iastate.edu, nil...@iastate.edu (Nilesh Savargaonkar) writes:
>
>>All the controversial stuff I have heard deals more with Lata. Infact, Asha
>>herself was the victim of her "didi's" all-conquering greed
>
>I read a recent story about Lata & Asha. The song 'Kuchh naa kaho' from 1942: a
>Love story was first recorded in Kavita Krishnamurti's voice but in the movie, it
>appeared only in Lata's voice. Probably Lata liked the song and got it
>recorded in her own voice. On the other hand, Anupama Deshpande had sung in
>place of Asha for some movie (forgot the name) because Asha could not come for
>the recording. Later, the MD wanted to record it in Asha's voice. But Asha
>listened to Anupama's version of the song and told the MD that it is good so
>let's keep it like that! One more reason for me to like Asha more than Lata!
>
>- Nilesh
Vijay Sundararajan
In article <4qmv56$1...@umbc10.umbc.edu>,
rebala gopinath <gre...@umbc.edu> wrote:
>In article <31CE90...@crd.ge.com>,
>Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@phoenix.princeton.edu> wrote:
>>Harish Suvarna wrote:
>>>There is no necessity at all to do any such
>>> thing as she was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar superior and talented compared >to others.
>>> -Harish
>>
>>You didn't have Asha in mind when you wrote this, did you ? Asha
>>easily has greater range and flexibility in her voice.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>By range, if you mean vocal range, I would disagree. Her voice breaks
>down at relatively higher notes, IMHO. This is not to suggest she is not
>a great singer, doesn't have great songs etc. Her versatility doesn't
>seem to have helped her much as most Hindi songs tend to be of a limited
>range (not vocal). It's helped her more in duets than solos, I think.
>
>Talking of versatility how could we leave out Geeta Dutt, IMHO the most
Kalyan,
You are 100% right she had as much range as Hemant Kumar in fact you
could have a one-one onto mapping between HK and GD as their songs
are identical in metre as well as number.
Of course after the phone call you will forgive me if you feel the need........
-Vijay
shalini razdan
>==========Harish Suvarna, 6/24/96==========
>
>daw...@leonard.anu.edu.au (David Anthony Windsor) wrote:
>>Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@crd.ge.com> writes:
>>
>>>All the controversial stuff I have heard deals more with Lata.
>Infact, Asha
>>>herself was the victim of her "didi's" all-conquering greed.
>One has to
>>>sincerely wonder how people still have high regards for Lata
>in the light of
>>>the abysmal extremes she adopted inorder to keep the
>competition at bay.
>>
>Lata's talent was immense. Types of Runa Laila,Nazia
>hasan,hemalata, Sharads,
>etc do not come 'nazdeek'. Forggggggget about they being competitors.
>
>But still, the fact that she knowingly tried to stop other
^^^^
talent does not escape my mind.
Let's see now, a fact is a trusim, an actuality denoting a
certainty of knowledge. I know it sorta spoils the fun of
a character assasination, but could the knowledgable,
"disgusted" people kindly provide said facts about the "abysmal"
lengths to which Lata is purported to have gone in preserving
her "domination" of the Hindi Film music scene? Silly
me, but I find phrases such as "read somewhere,"
"heard from somebody" less than completely convincing.
Shalini
>
>-Harish
rebala gopinath
In article <4qmosi$d...@fido.asd.sgi.com>, Harish Suvarna <sundu> wrote:
>Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@crd.ge.com> wrote:
>
>But what I feel is that Lata's voice is 'thinner' than
>Asha's and hence sweeter. Asha has additional repertoire
I feel that it's Asha's voice that's thinner and hence not
as melodius and prone to breaking at high notes. Or maybe
it's just that I'm in a "disagreeing" frame of mind today :-)
>Why did LM decide not to contend for Filmfare awards from
>1970 onwards?
>
I heard that she suspected a conspiracy whereby Sharada was likely to
win it and pre-empted that by deciding not to considered for it.
Kalyan
Harish Suvarna
The only thing concrete is her feud with OPN. don't know really
for sure about anything else.
-h
Kuntal Shah
>>>>> "Vijay" == Vijay Sundararajan <vi...@ee.ee.umn.edu> writes:
Vijay> You are 100% right she had as much range as Hemant Kumar in
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Vijay> fact you could have a one-one onto mapping between HK and
Vijay> GD as their songs are identical in metre as well as number.
Wait a minute : do you mean that Hemant Kumar had quite a wide range ?
I don't agree then.
HK could sing well only at lower octaves and could not sing at high
pitch well enough, IMHO. In fact I have felt that he sounds sweetest
when he sings at lower scales. Otherwise he had same limitation that
was seen in Mukesh's voice too, but to a greater extent.
I should say that this opinion is based on only a couple of songs of
HK that I have heard. But I feel even one song is enough to prove such
thing, and here is one : Bekaraar karke humeN yooN na jaaiye. In
this song, in last line of all stanzas this limitation is quite exposed.
--
-Kuntal.
______________________________________________________________________
| tumhiN ne ghum ki daulat di baDa ehsaan farmaaya
| zamaane bhar ke aage haath failaane kahaaN jaate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
U.V. Ravindra
In article <4qmosi$d...@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Harish Suvarna <sundu> writes:
=> Why did LM decide not to contend for Filmfare awards from
=> 1970 onwards?
=>
Because she had got sick of winning it.
Ravindra.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: In article <4qhm8c$m...@news.iastate.edu> nil...@iastate.edu (Nilesh
: Savargaonkar) writes:
: > On the other hand, Anupama Deshpande had sung in place of Asha for
: > some movie (forgot the name) because Asha could not come for the
: > recording. Later, the MD wanted to record it in Asha's voice. But
: > Asha listened to Anupama's version of the song and told the MD that
: > it is good so let's keep it like that! One more reason for me to
: > like Asha more than Lata!
Addition here:
Hawa hawaii was dubbed in KK's voice and was to be later done by other
singer ( I think it was AshaB that LP wanted). We all know, whose version
was released. 30-love. Wot say? :) ;)
Harish Suvarna said:
: Lata's talent was immense. Types of Runa Laila,Nazia hasan,hemalata,
: Sharads, etc do not come 'nazdeek'. Forggggggget about they being
: competitors.
Ummm, shall we not put Runa Laila in the same class as Nazia Hassan ( I had
the misfortune to hear her in some PTV type concert. Her actual voice is not
that good!! (Mahaa-surprising to me at that point)? Hemlata and Sharada also
do not come anywhere near to Runa Laila in terms of voice quality, mHo, but
I think that most will agree with my opinion too.
David Anthony Windsor in his defense stated:
: I have read that Runa Laila returned to Bangladesh after finding interest
: in her from MD's was disappearing - she had previously been thinking of
: becoming an Indian citizen - but wasn't a lot of the impact of Runa Laila
: from her far greater TV 'presence?
Her most famous tour was the one when she was singing Mera baabu chhail
chabila, afair. But I think that she had been singing in Hindi films much prior
to that too. eg. "Tumhen ho na ho, mujhko to" was probably much prior to this.
And in India, TV should not have been that prevalent at that time except in
the metros. So her admitted TV presence should not have caused that much of
an impact at that point among the general public. More info on this would be
great, David.
Kalyan Kolachal said:
in response to Ramesh Hariharan::
: : Asha easily has greater range and flexibility in her voice.
: By range, if you mean vocal range, I would disagree. Her voice breaks
: down at relatively higher notes, IMHO.
Any particular songs that anybody (including Kalyan) recalls with Asha's
voice breaking?
Would be nice to have a list and a discussion (on a separate thread :) )
Later,
Ikram.
Ravi Krishna
: >Why did LM decide not to contend for Filmfare awards from
: >1970 onwards?
Because ( as per filmfare records) to give a chance to other singers.
--
S. Ravi Krishna
Kishore Krshna
In article <4qn55b$a...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM>, tat...@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>BTW, while on this thread, does anyone have any
>really substantive thing to offer on this Lata dominance angle.
>Someone had once hinted- in excerpts from some Lata biography,
>penned during one of her tours- that Lata had divulged her side of
>the stories.
There are two biographies out there - one by Raju Bharatan and another
cited in that book (giving Lata's version) which was published even earlier.
BTW, those controversies discussed here and a lot more are mentioned in
Bharatan's book. The reason I'm not going into the details is because we've
already gone through this discussion once sometime back - if the archives are
available, you guys may want to go back & search.
A couple of minor quibbles - someone complained that Asha's voice
breaks on the higher notes. No one listening to Raat akeli hai in
Jewel Thief will believe this. It is Lata's voice that cannot keep up with
the westernised tunes of the 70s on. Is a singer's attempts to corner the
market a thing to be condemned? After all, she didn't sign a pact with
current & future fans for all time that she would be a saint. Finally,
whose version of history are we to believe and why?
--
Kishore Krshna
kis...@mail.utexas.edu
______________________________________________________________
NBhatnagar
Runa Laila was interviewed in Society or some such magazine and according
to her version she got married and now lives, happily, in Germany (?) or
atleast in Europe someplace.
N
Kalpataru Barman
> HK could sing well only at lower octaves and could not sing at high
> pitch well enough, IMHO.
*** You mean Hemant Kumar couldn't shout ! That might be true.
Ramesh Hariharan
> in response to Ramesh Hariharan::
> : : Asha easily has greater range and flexibility in her voice.
> : By range, if you mean vocal range, I would disagree. Her voice >breaks down at relatively higher notes, IMHO.
Say what ????? Asha is the absolute queen of control at the high pitch
even at this age (63?) ... flat out awesome .. in her three hour concert
she only slipped once and that too on a Elvis tune she was trying to
imitate.. not on one of the standard songs. The cabaret songs she sings
require such vast frequency span.. Consider ...
Karle pyaar karle .... esp. the part ... nazar mila jahan milee, tujhe
koyiii haseen (glides back to lower range at the end).. you can find
several examples like this.
I am not a big fan of such songs .. I would rather hear Asha's "Tora man
darapan kahalaye".. but then to say that her voice breaksdown is just
WRONG !
Sonu Nigam did an awesome job .. Sanjeev dude ! This guy is as good as
you ... watch out :-) I must add though that he did not sing a single
song that tries to pour out the soul of Rafi's singing. He selected too
many "Rafi for Shammi" songs. I would rather hear him sing Teri aankhon
ke siva/Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare/Yaad na jaaye/Suhani Raat dhal
chukee ... which IMO sets Rafi apart. As others have already stated he
freaked out on the "Laga mein chunari daag" song. He improvised heavily
at the end of the song... adding to the technical rigour of Manna Dey's
version .. good showcase song for him. He started out with "Badi door se
aaye hain pyaar ka thooofaa laye hain"
^^^^ ^^^^^^He got the subtleties
at these points perfectly...
Some great songs were : Aaayiye Meherban
Dil cheez kya hai (it took the live
concert for me to appreciate the difficult tabla involved in this song..
huge surprise was that that there are also drums being played softly in
this song although the tabla clearly dominates.. you can never tell
these things listening to a tape)
Piya tu abh to aaja
Haal kaisa hai janaab ka
(I am missing a few .. Sami help out)
I was disappointed that no songs from Ijaazat were sung .. instead she
started and finished the concert with some shady songs from Rangeela.
Anyone else feels there were just too many trashy songs at the NYC
concert. She's plays to the galleries all the way .. her enthusiasm at
this age is indeed remarkable.
Amit Kumar is pathetic.. the guy has lost his voice. He started out with
"Aa chal ke tujhe" and you could make out .. his voice is very
suppressed... khul ke nahi gaata hai ! He does yoodle better than KK
though :-) so KKKlaners your fortress (your only one) in rambles. As
usual "RAFI RULEZZZ!"
Yesrafidas !
.ps. Yaar .. rmim is getting too serious these days .. !
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: Sonu Nigam did an awesome job .. Sanjeev dude ! This guy is as good as
: song that tries to pour out the soul of Rafi's singing. He selected too
: many "Rafi for Shammi" songs. I would rather hear him sing Teri aankhon
: ke siva/Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare/Yaad na jaaye/Suhani Raat dhal
: chukee ... which IMO sets Rafi apart. As others have already stated he
: freaked out on the "Laga mein chunari daag" song. He improvised heavily
: at the end of the song... adding to the technical rigour of Manna Dey's
: version .. good showcase song for him. He started out with "Badi door se
Many a times in stage performances sometimes you sing it well at one venue
and don't sing it well at another. Perhaps he did sing "laga chunri meN
daag" nicely in NYC, but he certainly did not do so in Dallas. Sure he got
most of the technical parts right (He starts out the taraana right and
then in the middle he does the tabla routine), but rarely have I seen a
more lifeless rendition. I have heard it sung better in the college
festivals in Bombay!!
However, not that his performance was in any way bad. He was imHo a better
stage performer than even Asha and Amit. The way he got the crowd involved
in the proceedings (Pointing the mike at them for shoutig yahoo and stuff)
was done really smoothly. An excellent stage performer! But hardly good
for playback, mHo. But this may be blamed on a bad night too.
: aaye hain pyaar ka thooofaa laye hain"
: ^^^^ ^^^^^^He got the subtleties
: at these points perfectly...
: Amit Kumar is pathetic.. the guy has lost his voice. He started out with
: "Aa chal ke tujhe" and you could make out .. his voice is very
: suppressed... khul ke nahi gaata hai ! He does yoodle better than KK
: though :-) so KKKlaners your fortress (your only one) in rambles. As
: usual "RAFI RULEZZZ!"
Another instance of difference in stage performance, I guess. His voice in
this one song sounded extremely like KK to me. And he did sing Jhumroo
nicely. Surprisingly he didn't sing even one song from his own collection.
Did a fairly good job of JaanejaaN.
Later,
Ikram.
: Yesrafidas !
Nitin Sharma
: >
: >>I heard that she suspected a conspiracy whereby Sharada was likely to
: ^^^^^^^^^^
: >>win it and pre-empted that by deciding not to considered for it.
: >
: >>Kalyan
: >
: > Now that's unadulterated Bull Shit !
: Looks like many RMIMers are getting too sensitive and react without reading
: the post clearly :-) I wish you had noted the "conspiracy" in the post. I
: had heard that SJ (who seemingly had a lot of influence with filmfare
: people in the days when it wasn't on popularity) were pushing their protege
: Sharada as they had a major fallout with Lata.
I had read a similar story in Raju Bharatan's biography of Lata M.
May be Kalyan's source is the same.
In any case, Shailesh's comment ("bullshit") seems uncalled for.
-nitin
Anand Kuppuswamy
In article <31D1A0...@fyiowa.infi.net>, ka...@fyiowa.infi.net says...
Hi-pitched singing is not all about 'SHOUTING' sir! Any 'trained' singer
would vouch for it! :-) ... Singers who shout at hi-pitches have only
exposed their voice limitations ...
regards,
Anand
Vandana
=>By range, if you mean vocal range, I would disagree. Her voice breaks down
=>at relatively higher notes, IMHO. This is not to suggest she is not a great
=>singer, doesn't have great songs etc.
Oh no, you don't get away with making this statement, Kalyan! :) Could
you give some examples of songs in which Asha's voice breaks? And if you
notice this as a consistent recurring phenomenon?
If you want an example of Asha's voice control in high pitches, listen to
the ending part of the duet with Kishore:
"Jo main hoti ek TooTa taara teri raaton ka"
(Don't know details unfortunately). She holds out a single high note for
an unimaginably long time.
Another little-noticed song dismissed as one of those trashy cabaret
songs (and Asha has sung so many of them) in which Asha's breath
control amazes me is
"Do pal jo teri aankhon se peene ko mile"
from "Bahaaron ke Sapne" (R.D.Burman). In this duet with Usha Mangeshkar,
Asha sings a line:
"Kahin jo tum hote humaare *HIC* liye,
Do aankhon ke nasheele sahaare *HIC* liye"
I am always amazed at how simple she makes it sound, but how difficult it
must be to make that hiccupy sound in the flow of the notes. BTW this
movie "Bahaaron ke Sapne" has an absolutely beautiful Lata song
"Kya jaanoon sajan hoti hai kya gham ki shaam",
other than the famous "Aaja piya tohe pyaar doon".
=>Talking of versatility how could we leave out Geeta Dutt, IMHO the most
=>versatile female singer in Hindi films. Sh e has effectively sung both
=>Lata-like and Asha-like songs. This is particulary true of her pre-marriage
=>songs. ( What a collosal tragedy that marriage was for two of the greatest
=>artists in Hindi films and consequently for Hindi films!).
If you are referring to versatility with respect to the mood of the song,
you are right. Geeta Dutt has sung quite a variety of songs ranging from
bubbly to happy to mournful to sad to serious to philosophical.
However I cannot agree with your statement that "she has effectively sung
both Lata-like and Asha-like songs". It is hard for me to imagine Geeta
recreating the incredible delicacy of Lata's voice in:
"Aankhon mein sama jaao, is dil mein raha karna" (Yasmin, C.R.)
or the superb artistry of Asha's voice in
"Aayi pari rang bhari kisne pukaara" (Do Phool, Vasant Desai).
What may be closer to truth is to say "Asha has effectively sung both
Lata-like and Geeta-like songs". But I dare not.
=>Coming back to Lata, she might have a limited range of songs but that
=>constitutes a majority of songs. Another nice thing about Lata is her
=>selectiveness and awareness of her limitations(till the Shraddhanjali series
=>:-). While Asha has a large number of bad songs (lack of options,
=>experimentation etc) one would find a lot fewer from Lata.
Lata had the luxury of choice, whereas Asha had to grab what came her way
and make the best of it. Like you very nicely put it, "lack of options"
was a major impediment in Asha's career. She was always under her Didi's
shadow. Sadly, she still seems to be.
One more factor comes into the picture for people like me. As a person
who was not around in the 50s, 60s & 70s, HMV cassettes are my main
source to music from that era. And for some reason, there always seems
to be more of Lata's collections around than Asha's. I was introduced to
many of Asha's gems thro' "older" friends.
Let me not just make a blanket statement here, but mention some beautiful
Asha songs the world does not get to see that often, thanks to HMV:
<*> "O chaand jahaan woh jaaye" (Duet with Lata, Sharada, C.Ramchandra)
Both the sisters are beyond compare here, but Asha has just that
teeny-weeny edge over Lata in voice control? Debatable, I agree! :)
<*> "Path bhoola ek aaya musaafir"(Door gagan ki chhaon mein?, Kishore)
<*> "Baithe hain rehguzar pe dil ka diya jalaaye" (40 Days, Babul)
<*> "Do boonden saawan ki" (Phir Subah Hogi, Khaiyyam)
She pours her heart into these songs. What incredible pathos!
<*> "Aaj ki raat baDI shokh baDi natkhat hai"
(Duet with Rafi, Nayi Umar ki Nayi Fasal, Roshan)
<*> "Mere humsafar tujhe kya khabar" (Shart, Hemant Kumar)
The soundtrack of this movie is beautiful, and this is probably the most
beautiful song. But what is commonly found is the Hemant-Lata duet "Dekho
woh chaand chupke karta hai kya ishaare" or the Hemant solo/Geeta solo
"Na yeh chaand hoga". One would not hear this Asha solo unless one bought
the whole soundtrack.
<*> "Shokh nazar ki bijliyaan" (Woh kaun thi, Madan Mohan)
<*> "Madira chhalke mere nainon se" (Senapati, Madan Mohan)
<*> "Thodi der ke liye mere ho jaao" (Akeli Mat Jaiyo, Madan Mohan)
<*> "Zameen se hamen aasmaan par uThakar gira toh na doge"
(Duet with Rafi, Adaalat, Madan Mohan)
Fortunately the soundtrack of "Adaalat" seems to be quite popular.
Otherwise this gem would have been lost to the world.
<*> "Chanda ki chaandni ka jaadoo, yeh raat yeh sama" (SitaaroN Se Aage, SDB)
There are countless number of popular and incredibly beautiful songs sung
by Asha for S.D.Burman. It is a shame none of them find their way into
the HMV Golden Collection of S.D. Burman. There are 18 Lata songs
compared to a measly 4 Asha songs.
<*> "Aei gham-e-dil kya karoon, aei wahshat-e-dil kya karoon"
(Thokar, Sardar Malik)
Let me stop here before I get carried away too far.
About Lata's awareness of her limitations, she has been blissfully
unaware of how "besur" she sounds in high pitches since the 70s till
now. (Though, I am almost tempted to say Lata and Asha had so few
limitations that it hardly mattered.)
=>Kalyan
Vandana.
Harish Suvarna
>
> Lata had the luxury of choice, whereas Asha had to grab what came her way
> and make the best of it. Like you very nicely put it, "lack of options"
> was a major impediment in Asha's career. She was always under her Didi's
> shadow. Sadly, she still seems to be.
Objection Vandana... :-)
I firmly believe that the luxury of choice has to be created by an individual.
Whether it is cricket,arts or career. Yes, some times politics will be there.
But looking in to the scene of 1950s and 60s, there were people who composed
songs at highest quality level for highest quality lyrics and wanted all their
work in BEST voice available too. If Asha did'nt get many chances means, Lata
would have been judged better by all those legendary people. They made a choice.
Lata created that for heself. May be Asha did'nt in those days.
Sustained :-)))) ?
or
Overruled :)
> One more factor comes into the picture for people like me. As a person
> who was not around in the 50s, 60s & 70s, HMV cassettes are my main
> source to music from that era. And for some reason, there always seems
> to be more of Lata's collections around than Asha's. I was introduced to
> many of Asha's gems thro' "older" friends.
>
This is true. I was a regular visitor to Bangalor Brigade Road HMV store for
7 years. Never saw many from Asha. That was a very good store. After some time
I made a point not to enter the shop because If I enter I will walk out with
at least one casset.
But HMV is a business house. What matters to them is bucks. It does'nt matter
which casset generates revenues Anu Malik,or bappi or Lata or Asha. They will
pump in more of those cassets which sell more.
But nowadays it has improved a lot. We get 4 casset series
(retrospect/golden collection - totally 8 with less redundancy) of all singers
and almost all Music Directors. Then we have anmol ratan series (10 cassets).
If they read our NG, they will go for more collections like
drinking songs, seduction songs, maariage songs, songs which start same,
irritating songs.... and many more.
--
Harish Suvarna
su...@mti.sgi.com
Vish Krishnan
Vandana
=>Vandana <vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> wrote:
=>
=>> Lata had the luxury of choice, whereas Asha had to grab what came her
=>> way and make the best of it. Like you very nicely put it, "lack of
=>> options" was a major impediment in Asha's career. She was always under
=>> her Didi's shadow. Sadly, she still seems to be.
=>
=>Objection Vandana... :-)
=>
=>I firmly believe that the luxury of choice has to be created by an
=>individual. Whether it is cricket,arts or career. Yes, some times politics
=>will be there. But looking in to the scene of 1950s and 60s, there were
=>people who composed songs at highest quality level for highest quality
=>lyrics and wanted all their work in BEST voice available too. If Asha did'nt
=>get many chances means, Lata would have been judged better by all those
=>legendary people. They made a choice.
=>
=>Lata created that for heself. May be Asha did'nt in those days.
You are right about MDs going for the best. I totally agree that Lata was
the absolute best. She was the one and only choice of our most
accomplished music directors like Salil Chowdhary, Roshan, Madan Mohan,
and C. Ramchandra. And she did full justice to each and every one of
their compositions. What I am saying is Asha was no less that Lata. She
came into the field a little later than Lata and hence I used the line
"She was/is always under her Didi's shadow".
And yes, one does get the impression that Lata is a more "politically
astute" person than Asha, but I hate to bring that up because I do not
know that for a fact and, more importantly, it seems as though I am taking
away from Lata's immense talent and the divinity of her voice and her
unfaltering dedication to music.
=>But HMV is a business house. What matters to them is bucks. It does'nt
=>matter which casset generates revenues Anu Malik,or bappi or Lata or
=>Asha. They will pump in more of those cassets which sell more.
HMV knows Lata will sell. And she will. No one disputes that. And like you
said their aim is to make money, they do not have a commitment to music.
Else they would not ignore all the gems of Asha. A little bit of
favoritism for Lata seems to be present in HMV, but I do not know enough
and hence will abstain from commenting.
=>But nowadays it has improved a lot. We get 4 casset series
=>(retrospect/golden collection - totally 8 with less redundancy) of all
=>singers and almost all Music Directors. Then we have anmol ratan series (10
=>cassets).
True, I really like their idea of putting together collections from their
archives, though one does wish they would do a more sincere job with
regards to the selection of songs, paying attention to correct song
credits, etc etc. For eg. Ashok has pointed this out before - they have
credited Naushad's "Ganga Jamuna" song "O chhalia re chhalia" to Lata
while it is actually Asha. They can afford to be more careful, but hey, I
am not complaining because their cassettes are my main source to music
from that era.
=>If they read our NG, they will go for more collections like drinking songs,
=>seduction songs, maariage songs, songs which start same, irritating
=>songs.... and many more.
Maybe we could write to them. :)
I was looking thro' some old files that I had saved from RMIM and there is
an article by Snehal about Asha and Ashok's followup to that. Without
permission from either of them, I will re-post it.
I should conclude by saying this discussion is not about Asha being better
than Lata or viceversa because I personally feel we could discuss that
till hell freezes over and still not be sure. The discussion started with
Kalyan saying Asha's voice breaks under high pitches and hopefully we can
round up the discussion when he posts which songs made him think so.
=>--
=>Harish Suvarna
Vandana.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: Vandana <vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> wrote:
: >
: > Lata had the luxury of choice, whereas Asha had to grab what came her way
: > and make the best of it. Like you very nicely put it, "lack of options"
: > was a major impediment in Asha's career. She was always under her Didi's
: > shadow. Sadly, she still seems to be.
: Objection Vandana... :-)
: I firmly believe that the luxury of choice has to be created by an individual.
: Whether it is cricket,arts or career. Yes, some times politics will be there.
: But looking in to the scene of 1950s and 60s, there were people who composed
: songs at highest quality level for highest quality lyrics and wanted all their
: work in BEST voice available too. If Asha did'nt get many chances means, Lata
: would have been judged better by all those legendary people. They made a choice.
: Lata created that for heself. May be Asha did'nt in those days.
: Sustained :-)))) ?
: or
: Overruled :)
No authority to over-rule here, so may I counter your objection? :)
OPN was good! He never used Lata! i.e. Lata is not the BEST ?!
Naushad was good! He never used KK! i.e. KK is not the BEST ?! (er um, don't
answer that! I think you were a Rafian..... :) ). What I am saying is that
the personal prejudices of the MDs frequently intruded. Both SDB and SJ have
been reputed to have had a fall-out with Lata and have chosen other singers.
That doesn't necessarily make the singer second choice. Or that Lata remains
the best. How can you discount that Lata herself might have been a personal
prejudice until the fall-out? After all, CR might have had a special soft
spot for Lata!
Also, I think rather highly of ARR. ARR chooses Mano rather more (marginally
so, agreed) than SPB. That means Mano is the best?! Conversely if the BEST
will always be selected, why doesn't Yesudas get selected for all soft
romantic songs? And explain why RDB selected KSanu for ALS rather than Amit
(say)......
So, milord, this objection should be dismissed as it is objected to on the
grounds of being baseless. :)
: But HMV is a business house. What matters to them is bucks. It does'nt matter
: which casset generates revenues Anu Malik,or bappi or Lata or Asha. They will
: pump in more of those cassets which sell more.
To a certain extent yes. But then didn't Supercassettes vigorously promote
AnuradhaP and KSanu(until the fallout)? And you can hardly ascribe
generosity to Gullu Kumar. Reputedly even Ramesh Taurani of Tips favors
Poornima. What makes you think that it didn't happen then?
: If they read our NG, they will go for more collections like
: drinking songs, seduction songs, maariage songs, songs which start same,
: irritating songs.... and many more.
I've always felt bad about these collections. Why? I have the same song in n
different combinations... Many a times I have had to weigh how much do I
want these 6 songs as the other 8 I already have. It is better to get a
complete film's cassette that way. But this is my personal choice! Others
need not (and probably should not) agree. :)
Later,
Ikram.
: --
: Harish Suvarna
: su...@mti.sgi.com
rebala gopinath
Vandana <vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> wrote:
Thanks Vandana for an informative and insightful post. Maybe that's one
good consequence of bad posts :-)
>
>=>By range, if you mean vocal range, I would disagree. Her voice breaks down
>=>at relatively higher notes, IMHO. This is not to suggest she is not a great
>=>singer, doesn't have great songs etc.
>
> Oh no, you don't get away with making this statement, Kalyan! :) Could
> you give some examples of songs in which Asha's voice breaks? And if you
> notice this as a consistent recurring phenomenon?
I agree that making a statement without substantiation isn't proper. Due to
heavy workload I only had time for accusation and none for substantiation :-(
I shall soon post a list of at least a few such songs. For a few days before
the post I had been almost exclusively listening to different Asha collections
(Solos Golden collection, duets GC, Asha's My favorites) and that was one
thing I noticed in many songs. I will listen to them again to pinpoint at least
a few such instances.
Till then,
Kalyan
Harish Suvarna
>Harish Suvarna (su...@mti.sgi.com) wrote:
>: Vandana <vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> wrote:
>
>: >
>: > and make the best of it. Like you very nicely put it, "lack of options"
>: > was a major impediment in Asha's career. She was always under her Didi's
>: > shadow. Sadly, she still seems to be.
>
>
>
>: I firmly believe that the luxury of choice has to be created by an individual.
>: Whether it is cricket,arts or career. Yes, some times politics will be there.
>: But looking in to the scene of 1950s and 60s, there were people who composed
>: songs at highest quality level for highest quality lyrics and wanted all their
>: work in BEST voice available too. If Asha did'nt get many chances means, Lata
>: would have been judged better by all those legendary people. They made a choice.
>
>: Lata created that for heself. May be Asha did'nt in those days.
>
>: Sustained :-)))) ?
>: or
>: Overruled :)
>
>No authority to over-rule here, so may I counter your objection? :)
>
>OPN was good! He never used Lata! i.e. Lata is not the BEST ?!
>Naushad was good! He never used KK! i.e. KK is not the BEST ?! (er um, don't
>answer that! I think you were a Rafian..... :) ). What I am saying is that
>the personal prejudices of the MDs frequently intruded. Both SDB and SJ have
>been reputed to have had a fall-out with Lata and have chosen other singers.
>That doesn't necessarily make the singer second choice. Or that Lata remains
>the best. How can you discount that Lata herself might have been a personal
>prejudice until the fall-out? After all, CR might have had a special soft
>spot for Lata!
>
$$$$
OPN was good. No dispute. He never used Lata. True.
But he was trying to use
her voice and both had problems which are not related to merit.
They were are not music related reasons. Perhaps if one of them adjusted, then
PROBABLY OPN would have used Asha less. Asha did'nt have any such problems
with all other MDs. The statistics (num of songs those days) say that she was
not preffered above Lata.
That decision was made by those knowledgable people of 1950s. Lata would have
had problems with SDB or SJ. But we are not interested in those reasons. They
are not music related, They are not calibre related. Also both of them had some
great songs with Lata.
Naushaad did'nt use KK, He always preferred Rafi. Naushaad also did'nt prefer
Talat. We can always say that Naushaad preferred Rafi because HE felt Rafi was
better. Similarly we can say that LM was preferred by all MDs because she was
better perhaps. One can have soft spot, two can have, three can have.
but not all.
Let us for a moment think that Asha is really better than LM in those years.
But LM has already established herself. Definitely she had a starting edge.
She put a standard for singing. Now only if someone breaks that
barrier we call them better. Asha did'nt break that barrier. Had she, she would
have been automatically preferred. Let us say if Asha is equal, she would have
sung some more songs (if not equal number some more). Even it did'nt happen.
It is not that I listened to Lata and then Asha and I am saying Lata could be better
in those years. Since entire industry preferred Lata those days Lata was better.
I am able to write this statement because the legends did this. They selected their
singer. ALL of them had their PERSONAL PREF as same.
One legend (OPN) did'nt select her beacuse of non-merit related issues.
Hence your honour, my friend Ikram's statement be overruled and a clean judgement
be given 'baamushkkat...' etc etc
(I love that urdu line in hindi films courts judgement. ...mujrim
karaar ki jaata hai aur adaalat daf-e-302 ke ..baamushkatt saza-e-mouth di jaaati hai..)
>Also, I think rather highly of ARR. ARR chooses Mano rather more (marginally
>so, agreed) than SPB. That means Mano is the best?! Conversely if the BEST
>will always be selected, why doesn't Yesudas get selected for all soft
>romantic songs? And explain why RDB selected KSanu for ALS rather than Amit
>(say)......
$$$ There are some who do not think of ARR as high as you do. Only ARR might be
doing that. So I dont say that.
But it is not the
case with CRamachandra Saahab, Salil daada,Anil Biswaas Saab,Naushad Ustaad,
NDatta Maharaaj,SNTripathi saab ,SDB Daada,Jodi-E-Sangit SJ, Maestro Roshan,
Ravi saab,Meetha MM,Ustaad Sajjad,Chote Nawaab RDB, Great KA,
Pt Ravi Shankar,No Words-Shiv-Hari,Khayyam Saaheb,Ravindra J saab, Hemant K
Daada, Pt Shyam Sunder.
They are universally acknowledged. They are loved not because most
of them are dead or because of the nostaligia ,our_generation type
of reasons. It is because of their music which will be there and there
and there..... They had their choice without any ambiguity.
>
>: But HMV is a business house. What matters to them is bucks. It does'nt matter
>: which casset generates revenues Anu Malik,or bappi or Lata or Asha. They will
>: pump in more of those cassets which sell more.
>
>To a certain extent yes. But then didn't Supercassettes vigorously promote
>AnuradhaP and KSanu(until the fallout)? And you can hardly ascribe
>generosity to Gullu Kumar. Reputedly even Ramesh Taurani of Tips favors
>Poornima. What makes you think that it didn't happen then?
What is the use of promoting like in the above cases. The bottomline is that
if one is good, you need not even promote. By asking HMV to promote Asha,
are'nt we downing the status of Asha?
But what could be the reason for HMV not releasing many cassets of Asha?
Ofcourse I am not at all supporting HMV. I am happy that things changed now.
>
>: If they read our NG, they will go for more collections like
>: drinking songs, seduction songs, maariage songs, songs which start same,
>: irritating songs.... and many more.
>
>I've always felt bad about these collections. Why? I have the same song in n
>different combinations... Many a times I have had to weigh how much do I
>want these 6 songs as the other 8 I already have. It is better to get a
>complete film's cassette that way. But this is my personal choice! Others
>need not (and probably should not) agree. :)
>
>Later,
>Ikram.
>
Redundancy is another bigger problem we have with casset buying. Karnaugh
can not help at all.
Should we have
a) Cassets of same singer? (Only solos we hear but different styles as
MDs are diffrent). You can see the range of singer.
b) Cassets of same MD ? (We can see the range of MD)
c) Only single/two film cassets. problem is if all songs are not good...?
d) Duet songs cassets ? I did not have any problems with it. many singers
Many Mds but no solos.. That is ok.
Oh no I think I can crib for any casset...
I dont think there is ever a solution for this. Just hope that
we keep on getting money and we will be able to buy..
--
Harish Suvarna
su...@mti.sgi.com
Harish Suvarna
>Harish Suvarna <su...@mti.sgi.com> writes:
> You are right about MDs going for the best. I totally agree that Lata was
> the absolute best. She was the one and only choice of our most
> accomplished music directors like Salil Chowdhary, Roshan, Madan Mohan,
> and C. Ramchandra. And she did full justice to each and every one of
> their compositions. What I am saying is Asha was no less that Lata. She
> came into the field a little later than Lata and hence I used the line
> "She was/is always under her Didi's shadow".
$$$ No problems. We always need statements like that which generate lot of
analysis. We need controversies. If all of us say LM is great and sit there
is no thought process and no mazaa in the NG. All of us must voice our
opinions openly. When you have time just say why you think so about Asha
(no less than LM) and I too will try to write why not. It takes lot of time.
Thanx for your posting (to Ikram also) which generates discussion.
>
> And yes, one does get the impression that Lata is a more "politically
> astute" person than Asha, but I hate to bring that up because I do not
> know that for a fact and, more importantly, it seems as though I am taking
> away from Lata's immense talent and the divinity of her voice and her
> unfaltering dedication to music.
>
>=>But HMV is a business house. What matters to them is bucks. It does'nt
>=>matter which casset generates revenues Anu Malik,or bappi or Lata or
>=>Asha. They will pump in more of those cassets which sell more.
>
> HMV knows Lata will sell. And she will. No one disputes that. And like you
> said their aim is to make money, they do not have a commitment to music.
> Else they would not ignore all the gems of Asha. A little bit of
> favoritism for Lata seems to be present in HMV, but I do not know enough
> and hence will abstain from commenting.
>
$$$ If Asha's cassets sell more they will sell Asha's too. Won't they?
If it is the case of deliberately promoting Lata at her insistense, then it is
loathable. The popular demand always hurts the interests of some other
section of listeners. But thanx. Now Asha's cassets are out there too....
>
> True, I really like their idea of putting together collections from their
> archives, though one does wish they would do a more sincere job with
> regards to the selection of songs, paying attention to correct song
> credits, etc etc. For eg. Ashok has pointed this out before - they have
> credited Naushad's "Ganga Jamuna" song "O chhalia re chhalia" to Lata
> while it is actually Asha. They can afford to be more careful, but hey, I
> am not complaining because their cassettes are my main source to music
> from that era.
$$$$ These mistakes should'nt happen. Actually they printed correctly
'Nashaad' for 'tasweer banata hun tasweer nahin banti..' on my casset.
But I thought it is a spelling mistake and it is Naushaad until recently.
Eisaa bhi hota hai.... (Remember the DD program on sunday at 11.00am??)
>
>=>If they read our NG, they will go for more collections like drinking songs,
>=>seduction songs, maariage songs, songs which start same, irritating
>=>songs.... and many more.
>
> Maybe we could write to them. :)
$$$$ They must have a computer hooked to Internet. If not they sure are missing.
Whatever we discuss in this NG is like free business analysis, market pulse for
them.
>
> I was looking thro' some old files that I had saved from RMIM and there is
> an article by Snehal about Asha and Ashok's followup to that. Without
> permission from either of them, I will re-post it.
$$$$ Please do that. I posted one of Rajan Saab (SK) without any permission. But
I think it is excusable.... Is'nt it Rajan Saab?
>
> I should conclude by saying this discussion is not about Asha being better
> than Lata or viceversa because I personally feel we could discuss that
> till hell freezes over and still not be sure. The discussion started with
> Kalyan saying Asha's voice breaks under high pitches and hopefully we can
> round up the discussion when he posts which songs made him think so.
Yes. I agree. But one 'dot' 'Pb' to another '.' . :-) (little encoding).
>
>=>--
>=>Harish Suvarna
>
>Vandana.
--
Harish Suvarna
su...@mti.sgi.com
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Shailesh Phansalkar (shai...@news.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM) wrote:
: In article <4qn7mc$c...@umbc10.umbc.edu>,
: rebala gopinath <gre...@umbc.edu> wrote:
: >I heard that she suspected a conspiracy whereby Sharada was likely to
: >win it and pre-empted that by deciding not to considered for it.
: >Kalyan
: Now that's unadulterated Bull Shit !
: Kalyan: Do you personally believe that Sharada deserved a Filmfare award ?
: Anybody can sing better than Sharada. Wake up buddy.
: - shailesh
I do not believe that SJ or LP or KS should have won as many filmfare
awards as they have. But who cares about my *personal beliefs*
SJ seemed to have mastered the knack of winning filmfare awards, and
with them promoting Sharda anything could have happened.
--
Pavan Kumar Desikan
U.V. Ravindra
In article <31D272...@crd.ge.com>
Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@crd.ge.com> writes:
=> Sonu Nigam did an awesome job .. Sanjeev dude ! This guy is as good as
=> you ... watch out :-) I must add though that he did not sing a single
=> song that tries to pour out the soul of Rafi's singing. He selected too
=> many "Rafi for Shammi" songs. I would rather hear him sing Teri aankhon
=> ke siva/Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare/Yaad na jaaye/Suhani Raat dhal
=> chukee ... which IMO sets Rafi apart. As others have already stated he
=> freaked out on the "Laga mein chunari daag" song. He improvised heavily
=> at the end of the song... adding to the technical rigour of Manna Dey's
=> version .. good showcase song for him. He started out with "Badi door se
=> aaye hain pyaar ka thooofaa laye hain"
=> ^^^^ ^^^^^^He got the subtleties
Ramesh!
Do you mean Sanjeev is only as good as Sonu? I hope not! :-(
I wanted to listen to Sanjeev's CD during the Meet in WashDC but
missed it ... :-(
Sanjeev, whither art thou?
Regards,
Ravindra.
U.V. Ravindra
In article <4r524j$g...@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Harish Suvarna <su...@mti.sgi.com> writes:
{<snip> long argumenticle [argument article] ;-) deleted}
=> Since entire industry preferred Lata those days Lata was better.
=> I am able to write this statement because the legends did this.
=> They selected their singer. ALL of them had their PERSONAL PREF as same.
=> One legend (OPN) did'nt select her beacuse of non-merit related issues.
=>
=> Hence your honour, my friend Ikram's statement be overruled and a clean judgement
=> be given 'baamushkkat...' etc etc
=>
=> (I love that urdu line in hindi films courts judgement. ...
=> mujrim karaar ki jaata hai aur adaalat daf-e-302 ke ..baamushkatt
=> saza-e-mouth di jaaati hai..)
Just one net-pick in that very *interesting* argument ... the
"sentence" should read
EITHER
"tamaam gawaahoN ke bayaanaat aur adaalat meiN pesh kiye gaye subootoN
ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue mulzim Ramu ;-) mujrim qaraar *diya* jaataa
hai aur taazeerat-e-Hind ki dafa-302 ke tahat teen saal ki
qaid-e-baamushaqqat di jaati hai"
(Whereas the defendant Ramu on the basis of the statements made to
this court by the witnesses appearing and the arguments presented by
the prosecution is hereby pronounced guilty under Section 302 of the
[Criminal] Law of India and is sentenced to 3 years rigorous
imprisonment), which is the sentence of rigorous imprisonment,
OR
"tamaam gawaahoN ke bayaanaat aur adaalat meiN pesh kiye gaye subootoN
ko madd'-e-nazar rakhte hue mulzim Ramu ;-) mujrim qaraar *diya* jaataa
hai aur taazeerat-e-Hind ki dafa-302 ke tahat saza-e-maut sunaai
jaati hai"
(Whereas the defendant Ramu on the basis of the statements made to
this court by the witnesses appearing and the arguments presented by
the prosecution is hereby pronounced guilty under Section 302 of the
[Criminal] Law of India and is sentenced to be hanged by the neck
until dead), which is the sentence of death,
AND NOT
"tamaam gawaahoN ke bayaanaat aur adaalat meiN pesh kiye gaye subootoN
ko madd'-e-nazar rakhte hue mulzim Ramu ;-) mujrim qaraar diya jaataa
hai* aur taazeerat-e-Hind ki dafa-302 ke tahat baamushaakkat
saza-e-*MOUTH* sunaai jaati hai"
which sounds dubiously like:
This idiot is hereby sentenced to the rigorous punishment of *mouth*ing
repetitively the nonsensical words in this pronouncement by the court
till he gets facial paralysis or oral dyslexia, or both, whichever
earlier. ;-) ;-) ;-)
=> --
=> Harish Suvarna
=> su...@mti.sgi.com
=>
I rest my case ;-)
Ravindra.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
U.V. Ravindra (u...@vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
: "tamaam gawaahoN ke bayaanaat aur adaalat meiN pesh kiye gaye subootoN
: OR
: AND NOT
: which sounds dubiously like:
In other words, you mean to say you can't have a rigorous death sentence,
right? :) I assure you sir, that any death sentence will sound very
rigorous.... :) ;) even if not declared so.... :)
Btw, does anybody remember the 1st pronouncement ever being made in any film
i.e. IPC 302 and 3 years.... 'Cos 302 is (I think) the one for wilful and
culpable homicide and probably will not let anybody go so easy... at least a
life sentence. :)
Later,
Ikram.
: => --
Harish Suvarna
u...@vnet.ibm.com (U.V. Ravindra) wrote:
>EITHER
>
>"tamaam gawaahoN ke bayaanaat aur adaalat meiN pesh kiye gaye subootoN
>ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue mulzim Ramu ;-) mujrim qaraar *diya* jaataa
>hai aur taazeerat-e-Hind ki dafa-302 ke tahat teen saal ki
>qaid-e-baamushaqqat di jaati hai"
I really enjoyed this pronouncement of hindi film court UVR. Thanks
for putting up the correct sentences.
--
Harish Suvarna
su...@mti.sgi.com
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
In article <4r2408$o...@doc.zippo.com> Vandana
<vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> writes:
< A lot of good, sensible stuff >
There is certainly consensus regarding the fact that HMV has
been churning out Lata collections (or Lata songs in other collections
wherever possible) while Asha continues to get a raw deal.
I have a rather controversial insinuation to put forth on that
issue --- and would like to clarify that it is only a doubt in my poor
mind, not a belief or an allegation against the parties involved.
[*sigh* That was some disclaimer!]
Anywyas, here's my 'keeda' --- in my observation, most HMV
collections are compiled by one man --- a guy called Sanjeev Kohli
(you can see this info on every cassette collection / CD cover). He
is, apart from being a person with quite a good taste in music, the
son of MD Madan Mohan. Lata and MM's close friendship is quite
well-known on this forum.
I don't believe there is too much truth to 'favoritism' on
this count, but I certainly smell a cute little Mickey Mouse sized
rat... I would like to know if other RMIMers have any insights into
this --- I would certainly like to have this doubt cleared up.
Ciao,
ND
\____Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu____/
Office: ISIP, MSU, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road, MS State MS 39762
Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2689
\_http://www.isip.msstate.edu/____Disc Space - The Final Frontier..._/
Ashok
In article <4r11ns$d...@doc.zippo.com>, vven...@pcocd2.intel.com says...
>
> If you want an example of Asha's voice control in high pitches, listen to
> the ending part of the duet with Kishore:
> "Jo main hoti ek TooTa taara teri raaton ka"
> (Don't know details unfortunately). She holds out a single high note for
> an unimaginably long time.
>
This is the funny-sounds song, right? KK goes "uDuluDi uDuluDi u u" and Asha
rejoinds "ukku-ukku ukku0ukku uku". Toward the end, KK sings
banate sang sang_a, miTate sang sang
jeete sang sang_a, marte sang sang
and Asha gives backgound accompaniment "hahhaa hahha ha, ... ...". That part
sounds like a highly distorted version of the much more melodious Lata-Talat
vocal interludes with similar sounds, which Salil Choudhury got them to sing
in "aahaa rimjhim ke ye pyare pyare geet lie" in 'Us Ne Kaha Tha.'
Wasn't being critical when I said _distorted_. I think SDB meant it to sound
like that. It's a zestful and competently loud song from 'Chhupa Rustam' ('73,
Dev, Hema, Vijay Anand).
Incidentally, the opening line is "hotaa" not "hoti"; it's sung by KK. (I am
not netpicking; my main post is about that!) It does look like "taara" is
masculine, unlike "dhaaraa", which gave lot of headache to Shakeel and made
him use the 'incorrect' case in "tu gangaa ki mauj, mai.n jamuna KAA dhaaraa",
as "dhaara" was the metaphor for the male! In the 'Chhupa Rustom' song, the
lyricist seems to have been thorough in matching gender of the metaphorical
object to the sex of the person singing! Take a listen (or take a look) and
since I am all wet when it comes to gender in Hindi, please confirm!
KK: jo mai.n hota ek TooTa hua tara
teri raato.n ka, raato.n ka, to kya hota
Asha: jo mai.n hoti ek koi bhaTaki kiran
us taare ki, taare ki, to kya hota
Asha: jo mai.n hoti uDi uDi neende
teri aankho.n ki, aankho.n ki, to kya hota
KK: jo mai.n hota meeTha meeTha sapanaa
un neendo.n ka, neendo.n ka, to kya hota
KK: jo mai.n hota qismat ka likhaa
tere haatho.n ka, haathon ka, to kya hota
Asha: jo mai.n hoti chhupi chhupi matlab
tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re, to kya hota
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(^^^^ A nifty turn by SDB. Asha sounds incredibly sexy here.)
The paired couplets work like antaraas and after each you have the "banate sang .."
routine sung by both.
Here's the quiz part of the post. Since quizzes seem to be in the air a lot
these days on RMIM, instead of completing the P-Stats, let me make the left-out
part into one: Guess the lyricist.
(Since it is reasonably competent and coherent, it's safe to assume that it
can't be G or is it? :)) In any case, I am struck by the celestine coincidence
of this song having the same kafia ".. to kya hota" as the Ghalib Gazal that
is being discussed in a more serious thread!)
> Let me not just make a blanket statement here, but mention some beautiful
> Asha songs the world does not get to see that often, thanks to HMV:
><*> "Path bhoola ek aaya musaafir"(Door gagan ki chhaon mein?, Kishore)
That's correct.
><*> "Mere humsafar tujhe kya khabar" (Shart, Hemant Kumar)
> The soundtrack of this movie is beautiful, and this is probably the most
^^^^^^^^
> beautiful song. But what is commonly found is the Hemant-Lata duet "Dekho
> woh chaand chupke karta hai kya ishaare" or the Hemant solo/Geeta solo
> "Na yeh chaand hoga". One would not hear this Asha solo unless one bought
> the whole soundtrack.
Vandana, that "probably" was a very good anticipatory rhetorical move. :))
> Let me stop here before I get carried away too far.
>
>
>Vandana.
Please don't. You CAN'T go too far on this!
Ashok
U.V. Ravindra
In article <4r95jf$7...@news.tamu.edu>
iak...@eesun2.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) writes:
=> In other words, you mean to say you can't have a rigorous death sentence,
=> right? :) I assure you sir, that any death sentence will sound very
=> rigorous.... :) ;) even if not declared so.... :)
Okay, a few things about the Indian Criminal Penal Code (CrPC).
=> Btw, does anybody remember the 1st pronouncement ever being made in any film
=> i.e. IPC 302 and 3 years.... 'Cos 302 is (I think) the one for wilful and
=> culpable homicide and probably will not let anybody go so easy... at least a
=> life sentence. :)
If you are given a death sentence, it is almost *never*
'baa_mushaqqat'.
I was wrong about the 3 years, as far as films are concerned. In
films, it is almost always 'umr-qaid-e-baa_mushaqqat' ... 'rigorous
*life* imprisonment".
It is stated in the CrPC that a death sentence is to be given only for
the "RAREST OF RARE CRIMES" (indeed, the death sentence for the
assassins of Indira Gandhi was even sought to be challenged under this
proviso: assassinating a national leader is not a 'rarest of rare
crimes,' I think was the argument).
=> Later,
=> Ikram.
Objection overruled, therefore!
;-))))))))))
Ravindra.
Pradeep Dubey
Ashok,
Thanks for posting the lyrics. I spent last many hours
since this first post appeared thinking Pstats of this song.
Now some observations:
>> object to the sex of the person singing! Take a listen (or take a look) and
>> since I am all wet when it comes to gender in Hindi, please confirm!
>>
>> KK: jo mai.n hota ek TooTa hua tara
>> teri raato.n ka, raato.n ka, to kya hota
>> Asha: jo mai.n hoti ek koi bhaTaki kiran
>> us taare ki, taare ki, to kya hota
>>
>> Asha: jo mai.n hoti uDi uDi neende
>> teri aankho.n ki, aankho.n ki, to kya hota
>> KK: jo mai.n hota meeTha meeTha sapanaa
>> un neendo.n ka, neendo.n ka, to kya hota
>>
>> KK: jo mai.n hota qismat ka likhaa
>> tere haatho.n ka, haathon ka, to kya hota
>> Asha: jo mai.n hoti chhupi chhupi matlab
>> tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re, to kya hota
Assuming the lyrics are correct, I have a problem with the
last stanza. Is 'matlab' "streeling"? If I were writing it (:-)
I would have said: chhupa chhupa matlab teri baatOn ka ...
If 'matlab' were "streeling", we would have had:
'matlab nikal gayi hai to pehchaanate nahin' (some Rafi song?).
Pradeep
Navin Kabra
Since we are on the subject of hindi cinema court pronouncements
here is what Vinod Arekar had posted this on RMIM a little while back.
It is great, especially the part with Raj Kumar...
---------------
A more complete one:
Tamam gawahon ke bayanaat aur sabooton ko maddenazar rakhte hue
adalat is nateeje par pahunchi hai ki mulzim Shankar ne satrah
Sitambar ki raat ko mazloom Vikram ka be-rehami se qatl kiya.
Mulzim Shankar ko muzarim qaraar dete hue yeh adalat taazirat-e-Hind,
dafa teen sau do ke tahat, sazaa-e-maut sunati hai.
Shankar-ki-maa(=N.Roy): "Nahin! Mera beta khoon nahin kar sakta.
Judge sahab, aap ko galat-fehmi hui hai. Mera beta
khooni nahin hai."
Shankar(=Dharmendra): "Ro mat maa, aur qanoon ke in numaindon se
meri jaan ki bheekh na maang - tera beta be-qasoor hai."
Shankar(=Dev Anand): "Aap apni karwaii kijiye, judge sahab,
please proceed".
Shankar(=Raj Kumar): "Aap hamari jaan ki fiqr mat kijiye raani-maa
(he is prince Shankar). Jin darindon ne yeh jaal bichhaya
hai unhe aap ka beta qabr se uthkar bhi maut ki dehleez taq
pahunchayega".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
VINOD AREKAR
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Prince Kohli
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) writes:
|> In article <4r11ns$d...@doc.zippo.com>, vven...@pcocd2.intel.com says...
|> >
|> > the ending part of the duet with Kishore:
|> > "Jo main hoti ek TooTa taara teri raaton ka"
|>
|> like that. It's a zestful and competently loud song from 'Chhupa Rustam' ('73,
|> Dev, Hema, Vijay Anand).
(* Lots of snips *)
|> Here's the quiz part of the post. Since quizzes seem to be in the air a lot
|> these days on RMIM, instead of completing the P-Stats, let me make the left-out
|> part into one: Guess the lyricist.
Neeraj? I know that the other song in the movie ("dheere se jaana khatiyan mein")
has been credited to him, though I had guessed Majrooh.
|> (Since it is reasonably competent and coherent, it's safe to assume that it
|> can't be G or is it? :))
I was flummoxed by this. Who could be G? And then I read the "reasonably competent
and coherent" part. It was the "coherent" that did it :-)
Not that I agree with you though :)
|> > Let me stop here before I get carried away too far.
|>
|> Please don't. You CAN'T go too far on this!
Seconded.
-Prince
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
> >> KK: jo mai.n hota qismat ka likhaa
> >> tere haatho.n ka, haathon ka, to kya hota
> >> Asha: jo mai.n hoti chhupi chhupi matlab
> >> tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re, to kya hota
> Assuming the lyrics are correct, I have a problem with the last
> stanza. Is 'matlab' "streeling"? If I were writing it (:-) I would
> have said: chhupa chhupa matlab teri baatOn ka ...
Methinks, Pradeep, that the lines should be read as
jo mai.n hoti chhupi chhupi
matlab tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re, to kya hota
or put in the more prose-like order (and destroying the
poetry)
jo mai.n chhupi chhupi hoti
to tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka, matlab kya hota re
And 'matlab' retains it "pulling"...
Vandana
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) writes:
=>> "Jo main hoti ek TooTa taara teri raaton ka"
=>>
=>This is the funny-sounds song, right? KK goes "uDuluDi uDuluDi u u" and Asha
=>rejoinds "ukku-ukku ukku0ukku uku". Toward the end, KK sings
=>
=> banate sang sang_a, miTate sang sang
=> jeete sang sang_a, marte sang sang
=>
=>and Asha gives backgound accompaniment "hahhaa hahha ha, ... ...". That part
=>sounds like a highly distorted version of the much more melodious Lata-Talat
=>vocal interludes with similar sounds, which Salil Choudhury got them to sing
=>in "aahaa rimjhim ke ye pyare pyare geet lie" in 'Us Ne Kaha Tha.'
=>Wasn't being critical when I said _distorted_. I think SDB meant it to sound
=>like that. It's a zestful and competently loud song from 'Chhupa Rustam'
=>('73, Dev, Hema, Vijay Anand).
Thanks for the details and lyrics. Very interesting analogy to Salil
Chowdhary's "Aaha rimjhim ke yeh pyaare pyaare geet liye". Which one of the
two was more melodious is a fight between the composers, Salil C and SDB, but
when you compare the singing prowess of the singers alone, Asha comes off
better due to a couple of reasons:
Lata hardly touches (or holds) as high a note in the ending portion (or
interludes) of "Aaha rimjhim ke yeh" as Asha does in the ending portion of
"Jo main hota". Also when Lata does hit a high note when singing together
with Talat, it is Talat's voice which is in the foreground and Lata's voice
is kind of faded. In the Asha-Kishore one, Asha's voice is very resonantly
in the foreground and she simply entrances you with her vocal calisthenics.
Secondly and more importantly, "Chhupa Rustom" came out in 1973 (as you
pointed out) and any guesses if Lata could have done what Asha did in "Jo main
hota ek TooTa taara" in 1973?? :) Asha simply stayed in shape for much longer.
"Usne Kaha Thha" came out in 1960, when Lata was still in her prime. Why, in
1958, Lata did a marvellous job in Hansraj Behl's "Haye jiya roye" from
"Milan". I love this song. It starts out with Lata singing a couple of very
low notes and you almost think she is going to ease into a lullaby when
suddenly she hits a really really high note. I think Hansraj Behl liked to do
this juxtapostion, I have noticed it in varying degrees in a couple more
songs: The Lata-Mukesh duet "Nain dwaar se man mein woh aake" from "Saawan",
the Lata-Talat duet "Bhool ja sapne suhaane bhool ja" from "Raajdhaani" and
the Rafi-Suman duet "Din ho ya raat hum rahen tere saath" from "Miss Bombay".
=>Ashok
Vandana.
Neeraj Malhotra
: If you are referring to versatility with respect to the mood of the song,
: you are right. Geeta Dutt has sung quite a variety of songs ranging from
: bubbly to happy to mournful to sad to serious to philosophical.
: However I cannot agree with your statement that "she has effectively sung
: both Lata-like and Asha-like songs". It is hard for me to imagine Geeta
: recreating the incredible delicacy of Lata's voice in:
: "Aankhon mein sama jaao, is dil mein raha karna" (Yasmin, C.R.)
I have no intention of comparing Geeta Dutt with Lata or Asha.
Personally I think, they were/are great in their own arena.
To say whether Geeta has sung Asha-like/Lata-like songs or not -
is not a measure of her talents, she was senior to the sisters.
There is a very soft number in Parineeta :
'Chaand hai wohi, sitaare hain, wohi gagan, phir bhii kyuun udaas
has udaas mera man'
Geeta and Lata's voices are also at par in :
'Arre o gokul ke gwaale' from Rangeen Ratein.
- Neeraj M.
: Vandana.
--
Pradeep Dubey
In article <ufivc6s...@isip01.isip.msstate.edu>, desh...@isip01.isip.msstate.edu (Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon) writes:
|> In article <4rbdte$g...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) writes:
|>
|>
|> > >> KK: jo mai.n hota qismat ka likhaa
|> > >> tere haatho.n ka, haathon ka, to kya hota
|> > >> Asha: jo mai.n hoti chhupi chhupi matlab
|> > >> tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re, to kya hota
|>
|> > Assuming the lyrics are correct, I have a problem with the last
|> > stanza. Is 'matlab' "streeling"? If I were writing it (:-) I would
|> > have said: chhupa chhupa matlab teri baatOn ka ...
|>
|> Methinks, Pradeep, that the lines should be read as
|>
|> jo mai.n hoti chhupi chhupi
|> matlab tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re, to kya hota
|>
|> or put in the more prose-like order (and destroying the
|> poetry)
|>
|> jo mai.n chhupi chhupi hoti
|> to tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka, matlab kya hota re
|>
|> And 'matlab' retains it "pulling"...
You may be right Neeraj and perhaps it's not worth further
continuing this 'nitpicking', but in the version you suggest,
the 'to' (third last word) creates 'massive' confusion and
should not have been there for the meaning to be:
matlab tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re kya hota
But then the lines are unbalanced.
Pradeep
Podury Satyanarayana
akup...@vt.edu (Anand Kuppuswamy) writes:
>Barmanji! :)
>regards,
>Anand
Actually, in the following song, Hemant went pretty high, I thought;
Janam se banjara (?) ho bandhu,
janam janam banjara,
kahin koi ghar na ghhat na angnara (or some such words)
-satya
Ajay P Nerurkar
Vandana (vven...@pcocd2.intel.com) wrote:
: About Lata's awareness of her limitations, she has been blissfully
: unaware of how "besur" she sounds in high pitches since the 70s till
: now.
Many of us were blissfully unaware too. Could you put forward some
supporting argument for this sweeping statement ?
Ajay
Ashok
In article <4rbl7u$j...@fido.asd.sgi.com>, pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com says...
>
>|> Here's the quiz part of the post. Since quizzes seem to be in the air a lot
>|> these days on RMIM, instead of completing the P-Stats, let me make the left-out
>|> part into one: Guess the lyricist.
>
>Neeraj? I know that the other song in the movie ("dheere se jaana khatiyan mein")
>has been credited to him, though I had guessed Majrooh.
>
Nope! Let me give a helpful (or aggravating!) hint. Of course, the hint is itself
a quiz!
What's common in the following songs as far as lyricists are concerned?
1. yaara seeli seeli biraha ki raat ka jalnaa
2. mausam hai aashiqaana
3. aa chal ke tujhe mai.n leke chalu.n
4. kabhi tanahaaiyo.n me.n yu.n, hamaari yaad aaegi
The same feature would hold for the 'Chhupa Rustom' song also. Good luck!
>|> (Since it is reasonably competent and coherent, it's safe to assume that it
>|> can't be G or is it? :))
>
>I was flummoxed by this. Who could be G? And then I read the "reasonably competent
>and coherent" part. It was the "coherent" that did it :-)
>
>Not that I agree with you though :)
>
>-Prince
Reason for being cagey about G was, when I made the post, my spies had warned
me that Pradeep was still in Washington, DC and I decided that descretion was
better part of valour [I could try to avoid a beating-up by claiming that I
had meant Gulzar Deenvi :)]
Here's the song with corrections:
Film: Chhupa Rustaom
Signers: KK, Asha
Music: SDB
Lyrics: Quiz!
Cast: Dev, Hema, Vijay Anand
KK: jo mai.n hota ek TooTa hua tara
teri raato.n ka, raato.n ka, to kya hota
Asha: jo mai.n hoti ek koi bhaTaki kiran
us taare ki, taare ki, to kya hota
Both: banate sang sang_a, miTate sang sang
jeete sang sang_a, marte sang sang
Asha: jo mai.n hoti uDi uDi neende
teri aankho.n ki, aankho.n ki, to kya hota
KK: jo mai.n hota meeTha meeTha sapanaa
un neendo.n ka, neendo.n ka, to kya hota
Both: banate sang sang ...
KK: jo mai.n hota qismat ka likhaa
tere haatho.n ka, haathon ka, to kya hota
Asha: jo mai.n hoti chhupa chhupa matlab
tere baato.n ka, ho baato.n ka re, to kya hota
KK: banate sang sang ...
Asha: a ha haa ~~~~
I listened to it again. Asha sings "chhupa chhupa" a bit strangely,
but I think it is "chhupa chhupa" not "chhupi chhupi". So, in the
last stanza, the lyricist didn't manage avoid the gender/sex mismatch!
Ashok
Vandana
In article <4rebf6$e...@doc.zippo.com>, ADhar...@WorldBank.Org says in the
context of the "Chuppa Rustom" song "Jo main hota ek toota taara":
>Nope! Let me give a helpful (or aggravating!) hint. Of course, the hint is
>itself a quiz!
>
>What's common in the following songs as far as lyricists are concerned?
>
>1. yaara seeli seeli biraha ki raat ka jalnaa
Lata, Lekin, Hridaynath Mangeshkar, Gulzar
>2. mausam hai aashiqaana
Lata, Paakeezah, Ghulam Mohammed, Kamal Amrohi
>3. aa chal ke tujhe mai.n leke chalu.n
Kishore Kumar, Door Gagan ki chhaon mein, Kishore Kumar, Kishore Kumar
>4. kabhi tanahaaiyo.n me.n yu.n, hamaari yaad aaegi
Mubarak Begum, Hamaari yaad aayegi, Snehal Bhatkar, Kidar Sharma
>The same feature would hold for the 'Chhupa Rustom' song also. Good luck!
>
>Ashok
Arranging the facts seriatim does not lead me anywhere closer to the answer.
Did all the above lyricists like the color red or did they always wear kurta
pyjama?
And have you lately been perusing a tome on medieval torture methods?
Vandana.
rebala gopinath
In article <4rer17$j...@doc.zippo.com>,
Vandana <vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> wrote:
>
>>Nope! Let me give a helpful (or aggravating!) hint. Of course, the hint is
>>itself a quiz!
>>
Based on Vandana's answers all the lyricists were producer/director(?) of
the respective film. So the director/producer of Chupa rustam" might
lead us to the lyricist.
Kalyan
Veena S Nayak
>Nope! Let me give a helpful (or aggravating!) hint. Of course, the hint is itself
>a quiz!
>
>
>1. yaara seeli seeli biraha ki raat ka jalnaa
>3. aa chal ke tujhe mai.n leke chalu.n
The directors of the movies wrote the lyrics?
1) Yaara seeli seeli (Lekin - Gulzar)
2) Mausam hai aashiqaana (Pakeezah - Kamal Amrohi)
3) Aa chal ke tujhe (Door Gagan ki Chaaon mein - Kishore)
Don't know the last one.
Veena.
Veena S Nayak
In article <4rgtp8$f...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Veena S Nayak <vna...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>>Nope! Let me give a helpful (or aggravating!) hint. Of course, the hint is itself
>>a quiz!
>>
>>What's common in the following songs as far as lyricists are concerned?
>>
>>1. yaara seeli seeli biraha ki raat ka jalnaa
>>2. mausam hai aashiqaana
>>3. aa chal ke tujhe mai.n leke chalu.n
>>4. kabhi tanahaaiyo.n me.n yu.n, hamaari yaad aaegi
>
> The directors of the movies wrote the lyrics?
Oops! I did it again. I snipped the line which credited the
original article to Ashok (my posting was a response to his
earlier one, with the quiz). Sorry!
Veena
Ramesh Hariharan
> Vandana (vven...@pcocd2.intel.com) wrote:
>
> : About Lata's awareness of her limitations, she has been
>blissfully
> : unaware of how "besur" she sounds in high pitches since the 70s >till : now.
I think you should back up such strong statements esp. when you refer to
the 70's. I am one of those weirdos who thinks that Lata infact sounded
better in the 60's/70's than the 40's and 50's. I like her a LOT in
movies like Abhiman, Aandhi and RTGM (80's .. sacrilege ??). Her voice
lost some of the extreme sweetness and developed more base. Sadly, in
the 90's the voice simply gave away as in HAKHK.
Veena S Nayak
In article <31DCED...@crd.ge.com>,
Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@phoenix.princeton.edu> wrote:
>better in the 60's/70's than the 40's and 50's. I like her a LOT in
>movies like Abhiman, Aandhi and RTGM (80's .. sacrilege ??).
What's RTGM?
Veena.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4reip4$7...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu> a...@cs.buffalo.edu (Ajay P Nerurkar) writes:
>Vandana (vven...@pcocd2.intel.com) wrote:
>
>: About Lata's awareness of her limitations, she has been blissfully
>: unaware of how "besur" she sounds in high pitches since the 70s till
>: now.
>
>
>
> supporting argument for this sweeping statement ?
>
yes, as much as i am a proponent of the "lata was better before
such-and-such date theory, i think the "besur" phenomenon is a
relatively recent one for her...I don't think she sounds very sweet up
high after the seventies though - Abhimaan is about as much as I can
take...Lekin was good, but the songs required more power than sweetness
up high IMHO.
But for besur, I don't think that's as as easy a charge to back up with
her as it would be for Rafi or even (!!!) Kishore.
Sanjeev
Kuntal Shah
>>>>> "Veena" == Veena S Nayak <vna...@acsu.buffalo.edu> writes:
>> better in the 60's/70's than the 40's and 50's. I like her a
>> LOT in movies like Abhiman, Aandhi and RTGM (80's .. sacrilege
>> ??).
Veena> What's RTGM?
It is "Ram teri Ganga maili".
--
-Kuntal.
______________________________________________________________________
| ro ro ke tumheN khat likhti hooN
| aur khud padhkar ro leti hooN
| - Amrita Preetam / Sahir Ludhiyanavi (?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* They keep saying the right person will be coming along.
I think mine got hit by a truck.
Vandana
sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
=>In article <4reip4$7...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu> a...@cs.buffalo.edu
=>(Ajay P Nerurkar) writes:
=>>Vandana (vven...@pcocd2.intel.com) wrote:
=>>
=>>: About Lata's awareness of her limitations, she has been blissfully
=>>: unaware of how "besur" she sounds in high pitches since the 70s till
=>>: now.
=>>
=>> Many of us were blissfully unaware too. Could you put forward some
=>> supporting argument for this sweeping statement ?
=>
=>yes, as much as i am a proponent of the "lata was better before
=>such-and-such date theory, i think the "besur" phenomenon is a
=>relatively recent one for her...I don't think she sounds very sweet up
=>high after the seventies though - Abhimaan is about as much as I can
=>take...Lekin was good, but the songs required more power than sweetness
=>up high IMHO.
=>
=>But for besur, I don't think that's as as easy a charge to back up with
=>her as it would be for Rafi or even (!!!) Kishore.
=>
=>Sanjeev
I will begin by saying that I DO NOT think Lata completely stopped producing
quality output after the 70s. This was in reply to Kalyan's claim that "Lata
knew her limitations and chose her songs accordingly" whereas Asha didn't. I
don't think that is true at all. In the 70s and 80s, Laxmikant and Pyarelal
were one of the primary users of Lata's voice and as a friend has pointed out
repeatedly and I have observed, they used Lata's voice very badly. Most of
their compositions are high-octave and Lata ends up shrieking.
A couple of Laxmikant-Pyarelal examples follow this first example from
Kalyan's knowledgeable RMIMer (who could that be?!). In "Kanchi re kanchi re"
from "Hare Raama Hare Krishna", Lata goes flat on a couple of notes when she
sings "bas chup hi rehna, ab phir na kehna". This was not the same Lata we
knew who carried it melodiously and in tune to high pitches in the initial
aalaap of "Haye jiya roye"(Milan) and "Tum toh pyaar ho sajna"(Sehra).
In the song "Ghar se chali toh main toh" from "Gazab", when Lata starts out
with "Raama ho raama ho", you can see her notes flailing about wildly. She
sounds very "besur" to me, unless she was trying out a new style of vibrato
that I do not comprehend.
Another example is the duet with Kishore "Is duniya mein jeena hai" from
"Apnapan". She goes flat again whenever she goes in the high-pitch portions
of songs like in "Tere dil mein *jagah* mili, swarg hamen kya karna hai". She
sounds herself again when she comes back to the low notes.
And I will end by listing a couple of lovely Lata songs from the post-70s I
remember right now. "Aap yun faaslon se guzarte rahe" and "Apne aap raaton
mein chilamane sarakti hain" from "Shankar Hussain" by Khaiyyam are beautiful.
Both of them are very soft and low. I think she sounds great in "Na jiya laage
na" from "Anand" and in "Yeh dil aur unki nigaahon ke saaye" from "Prem Parbat".
Another post-70s Lata song which I love is an Ilayaraja composition
"VaLai osai gala gala gala vena kavidhaigal padikkudhu"
(duet with SPB) from the Tamil movie "Sathya" starring Kamal and Amala. Lata
sounds absolutely delightful and there is not the least bit of struggle with
the language combined with the fast pace of the song.
Vandana.
Pradeep Dubey
In article <4rr2gs$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
|> In article <4reip4$7...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu> a...@cs.buffalo.edu (Ajay P Nerurkar) writes:
|> >Vandana (vven...@pcocd2.intel.com) wrote:
|> >
|> >
|> >
|> > Many of us were blissfully unaware too. Could you put forward some
|> >
|>
|>
|> But for besur, I don't think that's as as easy a charge to back up with
Thank you Sanjeev for those multiple exclamation marks!
Pradeep
|>
|> Sanjeev
|>
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
While Kishore was undoubtedly very "sureel" and the seventies (esp.
late) saw Rafi's grasp on sur slip a bit, I think the !!!'s were also an
indication that "wow, this Rafian is extolling KK by saying `even
Kishore'..." :-) :-)
Take care,
Sanjeev
>
S.Jagadish
>>movies like Abhiman, Aandhi and RTGM (80's .. sacrilege ??).
RTGM = Ram Teri Ganga Maili
--
S.Jagadish mailto:SF91...@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG
Nanyang Technological University
Mayajaal : http://www2.ntu.ac.sg:8000/~sf918168/mayajaal.html
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4rtso7$b...@NNTP.MsState.Edu> riz...@sparco.com (Rizwan M. Syed) writes:
Oh yeah, I forgot, the most sureel singer of all is loRD Burman right?
Better than Rafi, Kishore, Manna, Lata, Asha, Talat, and all the rest,
better than all those jokers who call themselves classical singers,
Jasraj, Bhimsen, etc. right :-) :-) :-) :-)
All in fun,
Sanjeev
>
>>Thank you Sanjeev for those multiple exclamation marks!
>
> Hmm, wouldn't THAT be considered a 'redundant statement'??? Kishore
> Kumar going besur?? Things that make you go.. HMM......
>
> :)
>
> Rizwan
>
Rizwan M. Syed
>|> But for besur, I don't think that's as as easy a charge to back up with
>|> her as it would be for Rafi or even (!!!) Kishore.
>Thank you Sanjeev for those multiple exclamation marks!
Anand Kuppuswamy
Hi!
In article <4rtmdi$d...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu
correcctly said...
>
>While Kishore was undoubtedly very "sureel" and the seventies (esp.
>late) saw Rafi's grasp on sur slip a bit ...
>
>Take care,
>
>Sanjeev
The main problem, IMO, for Rafi, in the 70's, was that his voice started
cracking at lower pitches ... and that was always going to be a problem
for a singer with a 'trained' voice ... If Rafi (let's say) didn't do his
'aakars' in the lower pitches ... as a matter of fact ... in all the
pitches everyday ... he, for sure, would not be able to keep his voice
'warmed-up' ... Same was the case with the 'great' Manna (too) ... in the
70's! ... Besides ... they were not getting any younger!
... Kishore was more 'fortunate' that way ... 'mother-nature' blessed him
with a 'naturally' good voice! I think this 'voice-cracking-at-lower
-pitches' was a greater problem for Rafi, in the 70's, than
'besurila-pan'! :-)
... Inspite of this, I enjoyed many of Rafi's numbers in the 70's
... an indicator (to me) of his 'singing capabilities'!
Anand
Lopa Mehta
Hello all,
I was wondering if someone can help me the lyrics of a famous lata song
'Neino mein badra chaya, bijili si chamke hai...
Thanks a bunch...
Lopa
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan
Anand Kuppuswamy wrote:
> 70's! ... Besides ... they were not getting any younger!
> Anand
On the subject of voice deteriotion, I have often come across people say
that male singers have a easier time preserving their voices with
good discipline than women .. how far is this observation
studied/accepted ?
Yesrafidas.
Anand Kuppuswamy
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan (hari...@crd.ge.com) wrote:
: Anand Kuppuswamy wrote:
: > Anand
: Yesrafidas.
Hi Ramesh('Yesrafidasaa..!' :-)),
Any 'good' singer needs to do 'riyaz' every day (preferably in the morning
when one's voice is 'fresh' and 'bass'y). By 'riyaz' I mean 'alankaars',
'aakars', 'gamaks' etc. One can also do 'alankaars' in different 'taals' to
'beef-up' the voice. All these hold for both male and female vocalists and
as far as I know there is nothing like "male singers have an easier time
preserving their voices"! But what has happened is that ... many female
vocalists have resorted to 'falsetto' (to reach hi-pitches) which can severely
damage the voice. A perfect example of a 'hajaar-falsetto-singing' is
Kavita Krishnamurthy ... though she sings well her voice is 'shrieky'
on 'many-an-occasion'! Generally, males don't sing in 'falsetto'... except for
Kishore (!!) when he is 'yodelling'! :-) A 'male voice', in addition, has more
'bass' and 'strength' than the 'generally' 'soft' and 'thin' female vocals.
These could be reasons why female vocalists have to be more 'watchful' of
their 'voice-generation' and 'singing-style'.
care yourself!
Anand (A 'Rafian' who is not to be mistaken as a 'KK-Ignoramus' :-) )
Sajjad Khaliq
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan (hari...@crd.ge.com) wrote:
: On the subject of voice deteriotion, I have often come across people say
: that male singers have a easier time preserving their voices with
: good discipline than women .. how far is this observation
: studied/accepted ?
Lakshmi Shankar and also Lata Mangeshkarwould contradict that theory!
--
Sajjad Khaliq / Hamilton / Ontario / Canada
Rizwan M. Syed
>In article <4rtso7$b...@NNTP.MsState.Edu> riz...@sparco.com (Rizwan M. Syed) writes:
>Oh yeah, I forgot, the most sureel singer of all is loRD Burman right?
>Better than Rafi, Kishore, Manna, Lata, Asha, Talat, and all the rest,
>better than all those jokers who call themselves classical singers,
>Jasraj, Bhimsen, etc. right :-) :-) :-) :-)
>All in fun,
>Sanjeev
Tell me you were KIDDING.. I mean, how could you even THINK about asking
such a question??? I thought THAT would go without saying? I mean have
you guys ever heard the LoRD's rendition of 'Yeah zindagi kuch bhee
sahee'??? Need anyone say more on 'classical songs'?? :)
Praise the loRD!!!
Rizwan
Ramesh Hariharan
In article <4rrir9$b...@doc.zippo.com> Vandana <vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> writes:
>=>>: About Lata's awareness of her limitations, she has been blissfully
>=>>: unaware of how "besur" she sounds in high pitches since the 70s till
>=>>: now.
>=>>
>A couple of Laxmikant-Pyarelal examples follow this first example from
>Kalyan's knowledgeable RMIMer (who could that be?!). In "Kanchi re kanchi re"
>from "Hare Raama Hare Krishna", Lata goes flat on a couple of notes when she
>sings "bas chup hi rehna, ab phir na kehna". This was not the same Lata we
Nope ... she doesn't go flat.. she merely loses her volume. I think the
word besur is used rather carelessly.
>aalaap of "Haye jiya roye"(Milan) and "Tum toh pyaar ho sajna"(Sehra).
Great song with Rafi !! (the second one!)
--
Ramesh Hariharan
http://www.princeton.edu/~hariharn/
Manjeet Rekhi
"Snehal B. Oza" <sne...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net> wrote:
>
>Lopa Mehta <lopa....@nrtpq01.rtp.nt.com> wrote:
<snipped>
>Hope someone will complete/correct....
>
>Snehal
This song is ITRANS song # 186. It was incomplete. Here is the
completed version :
naino.n me.n badaraa chhaae, bijalii sii chamake haae
aise me.n balam mohe, garavaa lagaa le
naino.n me.n\threedots
madiraa me.n Duubii a.Nkhiyaa.N
cha.nchal hai.n dono.n sakhiyaa.N
Dhalatii rahe.ngii tohe
palako.n kii pyaarii pakhiya.n
sharamaa ke de.ngii tohe
madiraa ke pyaale
naino.n me.n\threedots
prem diivaanii huu.N me.n
sapano.n kii raanii huu.N mai.n
pichhale janam se terii
prem kahaanii huu.N mai.n
aa is janam me.n bhii tuu
apanaa banaa le
naino.n me.n\threedots
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4s5794$h...@cnn.Princeton.EDU> hari...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Ramesh Hariharan) writes:
>In article <4rrir9$b...@doc.zippo.com> Vandana <vven...@pcocd2.intel.com> writes:
>>=>>: About Lata's awareness of her limitations, she has been blissfully
>>=>>: unaware of how "besur" she sounds in high pitches since the 70s till
>>=>>: now.
>>=>>
>>A couple of Laxmikant-Pyarelal examples follow this first example from
>>Kalyan's knowledgeable RMIMer (who could that be?!). In "Kanchi re kanchi re"
>>from "Hare Raama Hare Krishna", Lata goes flat on a couple of notes when she
>>sings "bas chup hi rehna, ab phir na kehna". This was not the same Lata we
U.V. Ravindra
In article <1996071210...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net>
"Snehal B. Oza" <sne...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net> writes:
=> Lopa Mehta <lopa....@nrtpq01.rtp.nt.com> wrote:
=>
=> > Hello all,
=> >
=> > I was wondering if someone can help me the lyrics of a famous lata song
=> >
=> > 'Neino mein badra chaya, bijili si chamke hai...
=> >
=>
=> Nainon Me Badara Chhae, Bijuri Si Chamake Hae
=> Aise Me Balam Mohe, Garava Lagaa De(?)
=>
=> Prem Diwani Hun Mein, Saapnon Ki Hun Mein (2)
=> Pichhale Janam Se Teri Prem Kahani Hun Mein
=> Aa Is Janam Me Mohe ????? Bana Le
=>
=> ???? Me Dubi Akhiyan, ,......
=>
=> Don't remember further....
=>
=> Hope someone will complete/correct....
=>
=> Snehal
=>
=> > Thanks a bunch...
=> >
=> > Lopa
I'm recalling from memory:
film: Mera Saaya
lyric: Raja Mehdi Ali Khan.
music: MM Kohli
nainoN meiN badraa chhaayE, bijli si chamkE haayE,
aise meiN balam mohE, garavaa lagaa le!
madiraa meiN Doobi aNkhiyaaN, chanchal haiN donoN sakhiyaaN
DHalti raheNgi yooN hi, palkoN ki pyaari paNkhiyaaN (not sure)
sharmaa ke deNgi tohE madiraa ke pyaale!
nainoN meiN badraa chhaayE, bijli si chamkE haayE,
aise meiN balam mohE, garavaa lagaa le!
prem diwaani hooN maiN, sapnoN ki raani hooN maiN,
pichhle janam se terii prem kahaani hooN maiN,
aa is janam meiN bhi tu apna banaa le
nainoN meiN badraa chhaayE, bijli si chamkE haayE,
aise meiN balam mohE, garavaa lagaa le!
nainoN meiN badraa chhaye
Ravindra.
P.S. Just checked in the ITRANS now ... it's song #186. Less complete
than the above transcript, though.
Nandini
On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Snehal B. Oza wrote:
>
> Lopa Mehta <lopa....@nrtpq01.rtp.nt.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I was wondering if someone can help me the lyrics of a famous lata song
> >
> > 'Neino mein badra chaya, bijili si chamke hai...
> >
>
> Nainon Me Badara Chhae, Bijuri Si Chamake Hae
> Aise Me Balam Mohe, Garava Lagaa De(?)
>
> Prem Diwani Hun Mein, Saapnon Ki Hun Mein (2)
Prem Diwaani hoon main, Sapnon ki Raani hoon main
> Pichhale Janam Se Teri Prem Kahani Hun Mein
> Aa Is Janam Me Mohe ????? Bana Le
Aa is janam mein mohe apana bana le...
>
> ???? Me Dubi Akhiyan, ,......
Madira mein doobi akhiyaan, Chanchal hai dono akhiyaan
Jhalti rahegi tohe, Palkon ki pyaari batiyaan
Sharmaake dengi tohe madira ke pyaale...
>
> Don't remember further....
>
> Hope someone will complete/correct....
>
> Snehal
>
> > Thanks a bunch...
> >
> > Lopa
Regards - Nandini
p.s. Lopa - I had a problem sending u mail - do u think your mail server
might have a problem??
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Anand Kuppuswamy (ana...@vtaix.cc.vt.edu) wrote:
: Any 'good' singer needs to do 'riyaz' every day (preferably in the morning
: when one's voice is 'fresh' and 'bass'y). By 'riyaz' I mean 'alankaars',
: 'aakars', 'gamaks' etc. One can also do 'alankaars' in different 'taals' to
: 'beef-up' the voice. All these hold for both male and female vocalists and
: as far as I know there is nothing like "male singers have an easier time
: preserving their voices"! But what has happened is that ... many female
: vocalists have resorted to 'falsetto' (to reach hi-pitches) which can severely
: damage the voice. A perfect example of a 'hajaar-falsetto-singing' is
: Kavita Krishnamurthy ... though she sings well her voice is 'shrieky'
: on 'many-an-occasion'! Generally, males don't sing in 'falsetto'... except for
: Kishore (!!) when he is 'yodelling'! :-) A 'male voice', in addition, has more
: 'bass' and 'strength' than the 'generally' 'soft' and 'thin' female vocals.
: These could be reasons why female vocalists have to be more 'watchful' of
: their 'voice-generation' and 'singing-style'.
On a purely humorous note (or should it be sur? :) ), this has to go down in
rmim history as the post with the most numbers of apostrophes in it!!
'Right?' :)
Btw, Prince, your 'gamak's make a reappearance!!
So would someone define the foll?
Alankaars (in different taals!)
Gamaks
aakars
Later,
Ikram.
: care yourself!
Harish Suvarna
iak...@eesun2.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) wrote:
>Anand Kuppuswamy (ana...@vtaix.cc.vt.edu) wrote:
>So would someone define the foll?
> Alankaars (in different taals!)
> Gamaks
> aakars
>
With The little knowledge I have:
Alankaars: Permutataion and Combination of the 7 swaraas. Goes up and comes
down in the same fshion. These are taught first in the hindustaani classical.
ex:
s r g m p d n s (aarohan)
s n d p m g r s (avarohan)
ss rr gg mm pp dd nn ss (aarohan)
ss nn dd pp mm gg rr ss (avarohan)
srg rgm gmp mpd pdn dns
snd ndp dpm pmg mgr grs
s sr sg sm sp sd sn ss
s sn sd sp sm sg sr ss
s s
srs sns
srgmgrs sndns
srgmpmgrs sndpdns
srgmpdpmgrs sndpmpdns
srgmpdndpmgrs sndpmgmpdns
srgmpdnsndpmgrs sndpmgrgmpdns
s - sa r - re g -ga m - ma p - pa etc etc..
aakaar: Sing using only 'aa' sound. No lyrics.
Sing the above 'alankars' with 'aaaaaaaa...'
Basically to say 'aaa' we have to open up our 'gala'/mouth.
It is an exercise to
open,widen,narrow down the voice column. It's a warm up.
They do not use 'vu' sound for this kind of practice.
You have to close the mouth to get 'vuuu' sound. not a good
exercise perhaps.
Rafi makes 'aaa..' aalapana (before 'duniya na baaye mohe')
Mannadey makes 'aaa....' before Pucho na kaise
KK ...???? :-) Only 'vu..' in Tere mere milan ke... Any 'aaaa'
aalapana??
gamak: donot know. did'nt come across this term in my brief
learning. Perhaps means same as 'alankaars'.
--
Harish Suvarna
su...@mti.sgi.com
U.V. Ravindra
In article <4s6g7e$p...@news.tamu.edu>
iak...@eesun2.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) writes:
=> Btw, Prince, your 'gamak's make a reappearance!!
=>
=> So would someone define the foll?
=> Alankaars (in different taals!)
=> Gamaks
=> aakars
=>
=> Later,
=> Ikram.
This terminology is entirely borrowed from Carnatic classical music
jargon.
Given: A raaga with seven notes in the ascension (aaroh) and
descension (avaroh), i.e., sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa, sa ni dha pa ma
ga re sa. Such a raag is called a sampoorna raaga.
alankaar-s = different permutations and combinations of the seven
notes. These may be of varying length and varying
degrees of difficulty of rendering/playing. Also, of
varying length.
A taal is a rhythmic cycle. If you take the popular electronic
keyboard as an example, then the preset rhythms, such as Rock1, Rock2
or bossanova, rhumba, etc., can be called taals. Only, in Indian
classical music, the taal system is as well developed and researched
as the raaga system. Some of the names of taals that you would hear
of in Sangit Sarita would be: ek taal, teen taal, jhap taal, roopak
taal, etc. Each taal has a different number of counts per rhythmic
cycle. Technically, therefore, one can permute the notes of that
raaga mentioned above in each one of these different rhythmic cycles,
which is nothing but getting one alankaar in each taal!
Simple, isn't it, Ikram?
Gamak ... not again! It's that 'lahar' in the voice ... you know what
I am talking about?
aakar ... well, it's more or less like an alankaar executed with
'aa'-s (Ah!). That is, an aakaar is an alankaar where you don't
pronounce the names of the notes (swar-s) that you are singing, but
substitute them with an 'aa'.
Ravindra.