Anil Biswas and Rafi (was Re: S.D Burman's choice for Dev's p
sm...@lehigh.edu
In article <5rm5t6$r...@news2.zippo.com>, <Ashok M. Dhareshwar> (Ashok)
writes:
>It is a very tenuous "opinion." Let us take the musical universe that can
be
>spanned using the other leading male singers in the 1950s and early 1950s
>and beyond: Talat, Mukesh, Hemant, Manna Dey, Kishore, and Mahendra
>Kapoor. From the point of view of judging the full dimensionality of the
>universe that the works of an MD can span using these singers, Rafi is
> musically redundant.
If anyone from the above list can be called redundant, it has to be mKaps
unless we need someone to shout at the top of his voice. Talat, Mukesh,
Hemant and Manna had limited ranges in which they excelled. Rafi's talent
spanned the entire spectrum of the above singers (by this I don't mean to
imply that he was better than them in every field). KK was certainly very
versatile, but there were areas in which he could not replace Rafi. If one
were to remove Rafi from the scene and re-compose some of the songs from the
50's, one would have to need the services of 2-3 diff. singers from the
above list to complete one song. And there are many songs to which he alone
could do justice. Rafi was an all-in-one package and in his absence, MD's
would not have been able to compose many of the songs they did. For
instance, in quawwalis and semi-classical songs, only Manna was his match.
And Manna's voice didn't quite suit young heroes. In the Barsat ki Raat
quawwali, Rafi adds a new dimension when he joins in. Only his voice could
be used for Bharat Bhushan.
>The same cannot be said of, for example, Kishore Kumar. Having access to
>Kishore as a singer enables an MD to compose songs that otherwise would
>not exist at all, given the alternatives among singers. The vigourousness
of
The same goes for Rafi.
>the film music scene in the early 1970s, compared with the wasteland of the
>late 1960s is ample proof. On ther other hand, the absence of Rafi would
>not prove a serious deficiency to a talented MD.
Neither did the absence of KK prove a serious deficiency to MD's in the
50's.
>Madan Mohan's 'Jahan Ara' duet, "aye sanam aaj ye qasam khaae.n". The
>climactic portions of both the songs would have benefited from Rafi's ease
at
>the higher octave, but the emotional qualities Talat brought to the songs
This is one of the many Talat duets where I feel the MD ought to have
approached someone else for the job. Talat's delivery reeks of pessimism in
a highly optimistic song. Talat seems to be on cruise-control and doesn't
want to keep up with the tune.
>him the choice of the music directors. Interestingly, SD Burman wanted
Rafi
>to sing his "jalte hai.n jis ke liye." It was Bimal Roy that had the
isight
>to save the gem!
It is amusing that someone who has written the above lines cautions others
not to come up with "illiterate rabble". There is ample evidence available
that Rafi has sung many such songs with finesse. It is understandable for
one to fall in love with a particular singer's (in this case Talat) delivery
of a particular song, but to say that Rafi wud've ruined this song is
absurd.
>Anil Biswas's compositions in the male voices ranges from serious sad
songs,
>through songs of happy mood, folk songs, bhajans, patriotic songs, to
>classical songs and are among the best in any of the sub-categories. So,
>the fact that he used Rafi only sparingly has not proved a constraint to
the
>range of his musical universe. But one can say that Naushad's inability to
>conceptualize any significant song in Kishore's voice does highlight the
>poverty of Naushad's imagination in the later part of his career.
Neither aBiswas nor Naushad can be blamed for not using a particular singer.
They have both achieved much with their own favourite singers. It was also
incorrect to say that Naushad would have done any better if he had used KK
towards the end of his career. Almost every MD has seen a decline and
Naushad was no exception. Roshan was among the few who was good until his
death and there was no magic wand of KK's voice waved over his compositions
either.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>Ashok
****************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Is jeevan ki chaRti-DHalti dhoop ko kisne baandha
Rang pe kisne pehre Daale, roop ko kisne baandha
Kaahe ye jatn kare
Sahir in "Man re tu kaahe na dheer dhare...." (Chitralekha)
****************************************************************************
Referesh your RMIMemory with today's article from the past:
Rahul Tripathi
sm...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
> Is jeevan ki chaRti-DHalti dhoop ko kisne baandha
> Rang pe kisne pehre Daale, roop ko kisne baandha
Er, if I remember correctly, it should be laakhoN, shouldn't it?
-- rtrip
Nitin Sharma
In a very effective rejoinder to Ashok's post
sm...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
: spanned the entire spectrum of the above singers (by this I don't mean to
: imply that he was better than them in every field). KK was certainly very
: versatile, but there were areas in which he could not replace Rafi. If one
^^^^^^^^^^^
Could you amplify this a bit? A singer who doesn't have much to offer
from his repertoire for some of the most important genres in hindi
film music, viz. ghazal, semi-classical songs, bhajan and qawwali,
hardly has a serious claim to versatility.
Having sung the fun songs, the sad songs, the yodel songs
and songs for a wide range of actors on screen is not sufficient
to qualify for a versatile singer.
Talat, Hemant and KK are great singers in their own right, but I'd
hesitate to associate the word 'versatile' with them. To my mind, the
only male singers who have valid claim for this are Rafi and Manna.
: And Manna's voice didn't quite suit young heroes. In the Barsat ki Raat
: quawwali, Rafi adds a new dimension when he joins in. Only his voice could
: be used for Bharat Bhushan.
What you say about the BkR qawwali is absolutely true, but being
the only voice for *Bharat Bushan* is hardly the best compliment
you can give to Rafi. No ? :-)
: >The same cannot be said of, for example, Kishore Kumar. Having access to
: >Kishore as a singer enables an MD to compose songs that otherwise would
: >not exist at all, given the alternatives among singers. The vigourousness
: The same goes for Rafi.
: >the film music scene in the early 1970s, compared with the wasteland of the
: >late 1960s is ample proof. On ther other hand, the absence of Rafi would
: >not prove a serious deficiency to a talented MD.
: Neither did the absence of KK prove a serious deficiency to MD's in the
: 50's.
Very true!
Ashok said:
: >range of his musical universe. But one can say that Naushad's inability to
: >conceptualize any significant song in Kishore's voice does highlight the
: >poverty of Naushad's imagination in the later part of his career.
If by later part you mean the 70's and later, Naushad's 'poverty
of imagination' is independent/orthogonal to his 'inability' to use
KK's genius. What he composed for others would sound just as bad
in KK's voice.
Btw, can anyone list some good KK songs by the top directors of the
50's, like CRamchandra, Roshan, SJ, MM, OP Nayyar etc. I have an
impression (which could be totally wrong) that other than SDB and may
be AnilB, no MD of the 50's had that many good compositions for KK.
Does it mean that all these greats were also afflicted with poverty of
imagination? And how come KK had a comparatively smaller contribution
to what is almost universally regarded as the golden era (ie, the 50's
and the early 60's) of Hindi film music?
I hope to be enlightened by KKlaners on these questions.
-nitin
sm...@lehigh.edu
Rahul Tripathi wrote:
No, it shudn't. "Laakhon" wud not make sense in the above line.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> -- rtrip
>
Balaji A.S. Murthy
In article <1997080119...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net>, "Snehal says...
>
>ni...@cs.washington.edu (Nitin Sharma) asked:
>
>; Btw, can anyone list some good KK songs by the top directors of the
>; 50's, like CRamchandra, Roshan, SJ, MM, OP Nayyar etc. I have an
>
>
>Ina Mina Dika - Asha (1957, CR)
>Tu Hai Chanda To Main Hun Chakor - Aagosh (1953, Roshan) [*]
>Nakhre Waali - New Delhi (1954, SJ)
>Duniya Me Muhobat Ka - Naya Andaz (1956, OPN)
>Woh Meri Taraf Yun Chale Aa Rahe Hain - Kafila (1952, Pt. Husnalal Bhagatram)
>Tere Jahan Se Chal Diye - Rukhsana (1956, Sajjad Hussain) [#]
>Gana Na Aaya - Miss Marry (1956, Hemant Kumar)
>Khush Hai Zamaana - Pehli Tarikh (1955, Sudhir)
>Chhota Sa Ghar Hoga - Naukri (1954, Salil Chowdhury) [%]
On my recent trip to India, I noticed a 2-cassette pack called "Genius of Salil
Chowdhury" or something to that effect. In that the above song was credited to
Kishore and Sabita Chowdhury. Can somebody confirm if such a version exists, or
is it a mistake by HMV?
- Balaji
>Husn Bhi Hai Udas - Fareb (1953, Anil Biswas)
>Pyaar Ka Jahaan Ho - (forgot this KK, Nutan *rer ??) (1958, Ravi) [#]
>Jhagmag Jhagmag Karata - Rimzim (1949, Khemchand Prakash)
>
>[*] With Lata Mangeshkar
>[#] With Asha Mangeshkar
>[%] With Usha Mangeshkar
>
>I can add one or two more, but hope this should be sufficient. Also IMO, there
>is no *good* Kishor Kumar song under Madan Mohan in 1950s (atleast I can't
>recall any *good*. There are songs in Ada (1951) and Fifty Fifty (1955), but
>I won't mention them)
>
>Snehal
Snehal B. Oza
ni...@cs.washington.edu (Nitin Sharma) asked:
; Ashok said:
; : >range of his musical universe. But one can say that Naushad's inability to
; : >conceptualize any significant song in Kishore's voice does highlight the
; : >poverty of Naushad's imagination in the later part of his career.
;
;
; If by later part you mean the 70's and later, Naushad's 'poverty
; of imagination' is independent/orthogonal to his 'inability' to use
; KK's genius. What he composed for others would sound just as bad
; in KK's voice.
;
; Btw, can anyone list some good KK songs by the top directors of the
; 50's, like CRamchandra, Roshan, SJ, MM, OP Nayyar etc. I have an
Here you go (one each by all of above and others):
Ina Mina Dika - Asha (1957, CR)
Tu Hai Chanda To Main Hun Chakor - Aagosh (1953, Roshan) [*]
Nakhre Waali - New Delhi (1954, SJ)
Duniya Me Muhobat Ka - Naya Andaz (1956, OPN)
Woh Meri Taraf Yun Chale Aa Rahe Hain - Kafila (1952, Pt. Husnalal Bhagatram)
Tere Jahan Se Chal Diye - Rukhsana (1956, Sajjad Hussain) [#]
Gana Na Aaya - Miss Marry (1956, Hemant Kumar)
Khush Hai Zamaana - Pehli Tarikh (1955, Sudhir)
Chhota Sa Ghar Hoga - Naukri (1954, Salil Chowdhury) [%]
Husn Bhi Hai Udas - Fareb (1953, Anil Biswas)
Pyaar Ka Jahaan Ho - (forgot this KK, Nutan *rer ??) (1958, Ravi) [#]
Jhagmag Jhagmag Karata - Rimzim (1949, Khemchand Prakash)
[*] With Lata Mangeshkar
[#] With Asha Mangeshkar
[%] With Usha Mangeshkar
I can add one or two more, but hope this should be sufficient. Also IMO, there
is no *good* Kishor Kumar song under Madan Mohan in 1950s (atleast I can't
recall any *good*. There are songs in Ada (1951) and Fifty Fifty (1955), but
I won't mention them)
Snehal
; impression (which could be totally wrong) that other than SDB and may
Pradeep Dubey
In article <5rt43n$12...@ns5-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU>, sm...@Lehigh.EDU writes:
|> Rahul Tripathi wrote:
|>
|> >sm...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
|> >> Is jeevan ki chaRti-DHalti dhoop ko kisne baandha
|> >> Rang pe kisne pehre Daale, roop ko kisne baandha
|> > ^^^^^
|> > Er, if I remember correctly, it should be laakhoN, shouldn't it?
|>
|> No, it shudn't. "Laakhon" wud not make sense in the above line.
I will never forgive IBM for forcing me to stay out of this thread :-)
However, just wanted to add my 2 cents. Not sure how this gem crept
into this thread. But this is one of the greatest songs of all times.
One and only immortal's voice could do full justice to this song.
Pradeep
P.S. Since there are many newcomers to RMIM, I should be more explicit.
Yes, I am referring to the voice that can help you achive
"nirvana", that of KK, i.e.
Pradeep Dubey
In article <EEFwC...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, ni...@cs.washington.edu (Nitin Sharma) writes:
|> Pradeep Dubey (pra...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
|> : |>
|> : |> >sm...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
|> : |> >> Is jeevan ki chaRti-DHalti dhoop ko kisne baandha
|> : |> >> Rang pe kisne pehre Daale, roop ko kisne baandha
|> : |> > ^^^^^
|> : |> > Er, if I remember correctly, it should be laakhoN, shouldn't it?
|> : |>
|> : |> No, it shudn't. "Laakhon" wud not make sense in the above line.
|>
|> : I will never forgive IBM for forcing me to stay out of this thread :-)
|> : However, just wanted to add my 2 cents. Not sure how this gem crept
|> : into this thread. But this is one of the greatest songs of all times.
|> : One and only immortal's voice could do full justice to this song.
|>
|>
|> Wot??
|> You mean Rafi's didnt do already??
Yes ... that's exactly and positively how I felt after I heard
this song in his heavenly voice during a live show in SanFran,
as a tribute to Rafi.
Pradeep
|>
|> -n
|>
|>
|> : Pradeep
Balaji A.S. Murthy
In article <5s7p8f$3...@news1.zippo.com>, <Ashok says...
>
>In article <5rtirc$t...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.ed says...
>>
>>>Chhota Sa Ghar Hoga - Naukri (1954, Salil Chowdhury) [%]
>>
>>Chowdhury" or something to that effect. In that the above song was credited to
>>Kishore and Sabita Chowdhury. Can somebody confirm if such a version exists, or
>>is it a mistake by HMV?
>>
>>- Balaji
>
>
I have come to know HMV a little in all these years, making me vary of such
dubious "gems". The fact that you confirm my doubts strengthens my beliefs.
Let me give you another such example. In "Prem Patra - Usne Kaha Tha - Parakh"
cassette HMV credits "bal khaatii sharmaatii aajaa" to Rafi and Sabita.
- Balaji
>The female singer in "chhoTa sa ghar hoga" has from the beginning been
>misidentified as Usha Mangeshkar. In changing it to Sabita Chowdhury,
>HMV is committing another error.
>
>According to the revised editioin of the "Geet Kosh", volume III, the
>female singer is Shaila Belle (or Bellay). She was a singer in the
>IPTA (Indian People's Theatre Association) troop. "Geet Kosh" attributes
>the information to Salil and Sabita Chowdhury.
>
>Interestingly, I believe the film 'Naukri' has a sad version of the song,
>a solo by Hemant. It was not released in any recording. Interesting
>that Salil did not trust Kishore with the sad version of the song. :)
>
>
>Ashok
>
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
<Ashok M. Dhareshwar> (Ashok) writes:
> Interestingly, I believe the film 'Naukri' has a sad version of the
> song, a solo by Hemant. It was not released in any recording.
> Interesting that Salil did not trust Kishore with the sad version of
> the song. :)
Which makes one curious --- why not say that "Salil was so
disappointed with Hemant's version(s) of the song that he dropped it
(them) like a hot potato --- didn't even release a recording of them
--- and got Kishore to sing a happy one instead"? :-)
Ciao,
ND (Opinion lies in the keyboard of who types them)
\____Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu____/
Office: ISIP, MSU, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road, MS State MS 39762
Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2819
\_http://www.isip.msstate.edu/____Disk Space - The Final Frontier..._/
FatK9
Guess Roshan didn't know a damn thing, eh, else he would never have given
a song like that to that joker Rafi...
Give me a break...
Ashok
In article <5rtirc$t...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.ed says...
>
>>Chhota Sa Ghar Hoga - Naukri (1954, Salil Chowdhury) [%]
>
>On my recent trip to India, I noticed a 2-cassette pack called "Genius of Salil
>Chowdhury" or something to that effect. In that the above song was credited to
>Kishore and Sabita Chowdhury. Can somebody confirm if such a version exists, or
>is it a mistake by HMV?
>
>- Balaji
What is this, Balaji, you just "noticed" it, rather than grabbed it? :)
The female singer in "chhoTa sa ghar hoga" has from the beginning been
misidentified as Usha Mangeshkar. In changing it to Sabita Chowdhury,
HMV is committing another error.
According to the revised editioin of the "Geet Kosh", volume III, the
female singer is Shaila Belle (or Bellay). She was a singer in the
IPTA (Indian People's Theatre Association) troop. "Geet Kosh" attributes
the information to Salil and Sabita Chowdhury.
Interestingly, I believe the film 'Naukri' has a sad version of the song,
a solo by Hemant. It was not released in any recording. Interesting
that Salil did not trust Kishore with the sad version of the song. :)
Ashok
Nitin Sharma
Pradeep Dubey (pra...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
: |>
: |> >sm...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
: |> >> Is jeevan ki chaRti-DHalti dhoop ko kisne baandha
: |> >> Rang pe kisne pehre Daale, roop ko kisne baandha
: |> > ^^^^^
: |> > Er, if I remember correctly, it should be laakhoN, shouldn't it?
: |>
: |> No, it shudn't. "Laakhon" wud not make sense in the above line.
: I will never forgive IBM for forcing me to stay out of this thread :-)
: However, just wanted to add my 2 cents. Not sure how this gem crept
: into this thread. But this is one of the greatest songs of all times.
: One and only immortal's voice could do full justice to this song.
Wot??
You mean Rafi's didnt do already??
-n
Hemlata N Khemani
In article <19970805224...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
I am not sure as to which song you are referring to.....but your
statements are huge insults to both Roshan and Rafi. Also, since
you are an expert enough to accuse Roshan of not knowing anything, why not
try composing a tune like Roshan did. After all, we all know that actions
speak louder than words.:-)) And yes, you might also want to try singing
like or better than Rafi.
I am sure the RMIMers would like to hear a composition from you, composed
better than Roshan and sung better than Rafi.
-Hema.
--
P. Raghavan
I had posted a mail but it did not reach the group. So I am posting it again :
This is for all the guys who have called Talat a lalloo, Roshan as a
music director who does not know a "damn thing" and Rafi a joker.
Let me start off saying that Talat was a revolutionary singer as far as
Hindi music goes. He was the leading singer to make use of the microphone most
effectively. Before him any singer wanting to make it to the top
needed a baritone voice; when he came the microphone had just arrived
on the scene and he made the best use of it. Listen to the song
"Milte Hi Aanken" in Babul. Shamshad's voice is course and jarry while
Talat's is almost silken. Lata followed suit and so did the rest of other
singers from Mukesh,Rafi to Ashs,Geeta. Lata and Talat had a good mentor in
Anil Biswas , who according to Lata herself had taught her how to make use of
the microhome most effectively.
Talat's voice was like china ware. Improperly used, it could break a
song. It took guts to give him a song and make it a hit. For example in
the song "Ai Sanam Aaj ye qasam' in Jahan Ara, at the tail end while Lata
soars to go to a very high pitch, Talat fails to lift off and it is a
disaster. I squarely blame Madan Mohan for that, he could have used Rafi or
Mahendra Kapoor for that(Lata and Rafi were not singing at that time,
so maybe he chose Talat Mehmood) and also Lata to some extent for
not giving a proper vocal support to Talat. On the other hand the song
"Main Dil Hoon" in film Anhonnee composed by Roshan had Talat managing a high
octave decently, resulting in one of the most romantic songs given by
Roshan.
Talat,Rafi, Lata and Geeta were classic examples of intelligent
singers. They made best uses of their voices and their singing was technically
very good. Rafi & Lata were gifted with sweet voices and ability to go to
higher ranges. Yet both managed to retain melody at all pitches, unlike
Mahendra Kapoor who screamed and moaned. They had very good diction, superb
breath control and knew where to apply pressure to the words to make it
melodious. Geeta on the other hand was not so fortunate as she could sing
only in lower range; yet she was a master of modulation. She could produce
a drowsy "Na Jaon Saiyan", a seductive "Jaane Kya Tune Kahee" or a
breezy "Ye lo Main Haari Piya". When Asha started she had a thin squeaky
voice.She seemed to have this technique of modulating from Geeta and has
produced some excellent songs under O.P.Nayyar in 60s.
As much as I think Talat made use of whatever he had most effectively,
I think Kishore Kumar was a singer who had made the most inefficient use of
his beautiful voice. He never attempted to conquer his fear of high
pitch, did not modulate his voice and had an obnoxious jitter in his voice
which made one feel he was shivering while singing. Any guy with a voice like
him would have rectified these mistakes and could have sung more
effectively.
Being a person who practises vocal music, I have always been interested in
the technical qualities of singing and in these, Lata,Rafi reigned supreme
and Talat did his best. Only a person who cannot understand these
finer aspects will tend to abuse them.
Raghavan.P
Kalyan
In article <5s98v5$psp$1...@bvadm.bv.tek.com>, "P. says...
>
>I had posted a mail but it did not reach the group. So I am posting it again :
A great post! Almost fully agree with your comments. Regarding Talat I
feel the quivering or shakiness in his voice increased as the years
went by and particularly in the 60's. This makes Talat songs of the
60's less appealing to me. Also he has pulled off songs similar to "Ae
sanam aaj" in the 50's. Those who attack him might have some of
his 60's songs in mind :) What I said is only wrt a few of his 60's
songs. I like most of his 60's songs as well. It's only that he was
far from his peak.
I think you are being a bit too harsh on KK. Though I agree he could have done
a lot better. However his great voice is a pleasure to listen to. For more
over to the klan. And in passing let me mention the fabulous songs
by KK in Chitragupta's excellent soundtrack "Ek raaz".
>melodious. Geeta on the other hand was not so fortunate as she could sing
>only in lower range; yet she was a master of modulation. She could produce
>a drowsy "Na Jaon Saiyan", a seductive "Jaane Kya Tune Kahee" or a
>breezy "Ye lo Main Haari Piya". When Asha started she had a thin squeaky
>voice.She seemed to have this technique of modulating from Geeta and has
>produced some excellent songs under O.P.Nayyar in 60s.
Actually Asha has excellent songs with OPN and SDB in the 50's as well.
However I agree that in 50's her voice wasn't that well modulated and
shaky with other MD's particularly in the sad or serious songs. e.g
listen to "Dil shaam se duba jaata hai" (by AB), "Tang aa chuke hain"
(by N. Dutta) or "Saba se ye kehdo" (by MM) I do feel that her voice and
style (along with her confidence I think) improved a lot in the late 50's
and 60's. That could also have been the influence of OPN or SDB. Though
she has admitted to copying Geeta's style so it might well be Geeta's
influence.
Regards,
Kalyan
Pradeep Dubey
Hello:
'Gyaanvarsha' on RMIM is so strong these days that it's causing
flooding in my little brain. Hence here is an attempt to
summarize to help others like me to also create some room
in their brain cells.
Of course, to humor-starved, please be warned of the
triple 'H' content.
Executive Summary: Bollywood's efficiency has been pulled low for years
by Bengalis of different flavor: khandawa flavor, tripura
flavor, whatever ...
Culprit: SD Burman
Charge: Ieffeicient use of singer picking talent
Details: He could never make up his mind whether to pick Rafi or KK.
A simple algorithm existed but he didn't have the brain to
use it: if it was an elementary 'Ka kha ga gha' song, give it
to the school-dropout KK, else if was the real 'sa Re ga ma' class
give it to the 'prayaga sangeet kendra' topper: Rafi.
Culprit: RD Burman
Charge: Inefficient use of composing talent
Details: He had the brains to create some of the most creative pieces.
But he spent almost all his talent copying pop songs.
Culprit: Kishore Kumar
Charge: Inefficient use of singing talent
Details: He had a beautiful voice but never attempted to conquer
his fear of high pitch, poor modulation and obnoxious jitter.
BTW since all Salil songs almost by definition, go high,
go low, go all over, it should be clear to all that songs
like: koi hota ... or aayee ghir ghir (both 1.7+ octave),
were actually sung by his anonymous clone. And to some it
may seem like Rafi may have only 1 or none song above 1.7+
octave, they should get their ear checked. Because many of
those 2+ octave songs, may sound like sung by Yesudas, are
actually by Rafi. Jitter and Modulation charges will be
detailed during future court hearings.
Culprit: Anil Biswas
Charge: Inefficient use of ability to suit song to a singer's voice
Details: Even though this composer had extrordinary talent as vouched
by many, he never made an attempt to create a song of the type
most versatile singer of our times (Rafi) could sing.
Rules of logic used for validating self-consistency in a charge
do not apply here.
Culprit: Salil Chowdhary
Charge: Inefficient use of ability to distribute songs between the two sexes
Details: This extrordinarily gifted musician was extremely biased
towards the fairer sex and made very little attempt to compose
songs for male voices which were great too. He had an equally
talented pool of male singer to choose from, with great voices:
some with, some without, some even with, some even without
the microphone, some even with obnoxious jitter, some with
no fear of conquering highest pitches, some bent on conquering
high pitches ....
Pradeep
Pradeep
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 8 Aug 1997 16:03:51 GMT, pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey)
wrote:
>Executive Summary: Bollywood's efficiency has been pulled low for years
> by Bengalis of different flavor: khandawa flavor, tripura
> flavor, whatever ...
Great one!
But you did forget the maestro
Hemant Kumar: Composed mostly songs for himself! How more selfish can
you get? The other way of looking at it is nobody would compose for
him but himself!
Question: why didn't Manna Dey and Sudhin Dasgupta compose for
Bollywood? I don't think I would have minded "Ami Jamini tumi shashi
hey" and "Elo jey barasha" clones?
regards, siddhartha
Kalpataru Barman
Pradeep Dubey wrote:
> Executive Summary: Bollywood's efficiency has been pulled low for years
> by Bengalis of different flavor: khandawa flavor, tripura
> flavor, whatever ...
Just curious ! How many Bengalis performed in Hindi film music world ?
Composers :
1. Anil Biswas
2. Pankaj Mallick
3. Salil Chowdhury
4. Hemanta Mukherjee
5. S.D.Burman
6. R.D.Burman
7. Shyamal Mitra
Playback :
1. Manna Dey
2. Geeta Roy (Dutt)
3. Hemanta Mukherjee
4. Kishore kumar Ganguly
5. Chandrani Mukherjee
6. Arati Mukherjee
7. Sanu Bhattacharya
Anyone else ??
Anil Hingorani
Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
>
> But you did forget the maestro
>
> Hemant Kumar: Composed mostly songs for himself! How more selfish can
> you get? The other way of looking at it is nobody would compose for
> him but himself!
>
Actually, HK composed more songs for LM than any other singer.
> Question: why didn't Manna Dey and Sudhin Dasgupta compose for
> Bollywood? I don't think I would have minded "Ami Jamini tumi shashi
> hey" and "Elo jey barasha" clones?
>
I have asked this before but got no response:-( I know Manna Dey
composed songs for a few films, but I am not sure if it is the same
person as the singer. Can someone confirm and also list a few of
his composed songs. I remember some songs from the film 'naina 'for
which, I think, he was the composer.
Cheers,
Anil
Kalyan
In article <33f379a6.860660446@News>, sdu...@bsu.idbsu.edu says...
>
>On 14 Aug 1997 08:24:19 -0700, Ketan wrote:
>
>
>>UVR is right. Remove the Burmans from this list please.
>
>I am not so sure. How do you define bengalis? My definition is the one
>of mother toungue. You are a Tamil if you most often speak in Tamil to
>your mother (an unnecessary and redundant statement;))
There is yet another definition that can be attributed to Tenali Rama :)
There once came a linguist to Krishna Deva Raaya's court and challenged
if anybody could determine his mother tongue. Since he was fluent
in a number of languages and no trace of any accent whatsoever all
the experts in the court failed. That was embarrasing to the king so
Tenali Rama said he can find it out easily. He went to the guy and hit
him hard and as a result he shouted "mummy" in his mother tongue :)
Before I turn to music a word of advice - don't try this algorithm with
your friends and colleagues :)
>
>Actually by my definition the status of Kishore is cloudy. I do not
>know what language he used to follow at home, but given his diction it
>may have been bengali.
KK (like most people from MP :)) didn't have any Bangla accent as far
as I can tell and spoke pure Hindi (KK-baiters, note that I said
"pure Hindi" not "pure Urdu" :) ). Same for his brothers. However Amit
Kumar has a pronounced Bangla accent when he's talking.
>
>>Add KK. Also add Bappi
>>Lahiri, Dilip Sen-Samir Sen(am assuming they are Bengalis), Pt. Ravi Shankar
>>Banerjee, Timir Baran, S.K. Pal, Arun Kumar Mukherjee(the MD of Parineeta, not
>>Uttam Kumar), Kanu Ghosh, Kanu Roy, Pannalal Ghosh.
Some more are Mukul Roy (Geeta's brother, MD of Detective, Sailaab etc),
Sailesh Mukherjee, R.C. Boral, Jamal Sen.
>>
>>>=>
>>>=> Playback :
>>>=> 1. Manna Dey
>>>=> 2. Geeta Roy (Dutt)
>>>=> 3. Hemanta Mukherjee
>>>=> 4. Kishore kumar Ganguly
>>>=> 5. Chandrani Mukherjee
>>>=> 6. Arati Mukherjee
>>>=> 7. Sanu Bhattacharya
>>
>>Sandhya Mukherjee(or is it Bannerjee),
>
>It is Mukherjee
>
>>Anup Ghoshal, Dwijen Mukherjee, Amit
>>Kumar Ganguly, Anil Biswas(he has sung one song atleast--I forget which),
One song of AnilB I've heard is "Kahe der karat baraati" from Aurat(?).
He also has a song in Aarzoo, AFAIR. I've heard he sang quite a few
songs in his early years.
>> Parul
>>Ghosh, Bappi Lahiri, Kumar Sanu.
Then there are Shankar Dasgupta, Subir Sen and the latest addition to my
list of non-redundant singers - Ranu Mukherjee.
Cheers,
Kalyan
Ketan
In article <33F318...@informix.com>, "U.V. says...
>
>Kalpataru Barman wrote:
>=> Just curious ! How many Bengalis performed in Hindi film music world
>=?
>=> Composers :
>=> 1. Anil Biswas
>=> 2. Pankaj Mallick
>=> 3. Salil Chowdhury
>=> 4. Hemanta Mukherjee
>=> 5. S.D.Burman
>=> 6. R.D.Burman
>=> 7. Shyamal Mitra
UVR is right. Remove the Burmans from this list please. Add KK. Also add Bappi
Lahiri, Dilip Sen-Samir Sen(am assuming they are Bengalis), Pt. Ravi Shankar
Banerjee, Timir Baran, S.K. Pal, Arun Kumar Mukherjee(the MD of Parineeta, not
Uttam Kumar), Kanu Ghosh, Kanu Roy, Pannalal Ghosh.
>=>
>=> Playback :
>=> 1. Manna Dey
>=> 2. Geeta Roy (Dutt)
>=> 3. Hemanta Mukherjee
>=> 4. Kishore kumar Ganguly
>=> 5. Chandrani Mukherjee
>=> 6. Arati Mukherjee
>=> 7. Sanu Bhattacharya
Sandhya Mukherjee(or is it Bannerjee), Anup Ghoshal, Dwijen Mukherjee, Amit
Kumar Ganguly, Anil Biswas(he has sung one song atleast--I forget which), Parul
Ghosh, Bappi Lahiri, Kumar Sanu.
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 14 Aug 1997 08:24:19 -0700, Ketan wrote:
>UVR is right. Remove the Burmans from this list please.
I am not so sure. How do you define bengalis? My definition is the one
of mother toungue. You are a Tamil if you most often speak in Tamil to
your mother (an unnecessary and redundant statement;))
We come from the same region as S.D. Burman (Panditbaria in Tripura)
and people there speak a dialect of Bengali, so he may be called a
bengali by my definition.
Ethnically offcourse he is from Tripura.
However the case is different for R.D. Burman whose mother was Meera
Devi who are people of Coomilla a district in undivided Bengal (and
now in Bangladesh), so linguistically he is a Bengali while ethnically
he is half;))
Actually by my definition the status of Kishore is cloudy. I do not
know what language he used to follow at home, but given his diction it
may have been bengali.
Amit Kumar was however the son of Ruma Guha Thakurata and KK so I
guess he is MORE bengali than his dad;))
>Add KK. Also add Bappi
>Lahiri, Dilip Sen-Samir Sen(am assuming they are Bengalis), Pt. Ravi Shankar
>Banerjee, Timir Baran, S.K. Pal, Arun Kumar Mukherjee(the MD of Parineeta, not
>Uttam Kumar), Kanu Ghosh, Kanu Roy, Pannalal Ghosh.
>
>>=>
>>=> Playback :
>>=> 1. Manna Dey
>>=> 2. Geeta Roy (Dutt)
>>=> 3. Hemanta Mukherjee
>>=> 4. Kishore kumar Ganguly
>>=> 5. Chandrani Mukherjee
>>=> 6. Arati Mukherjee
>>=> 7. Sanu Bhattacharya
>
>Sandhya Mukherjee(or is it Bannerjee),
It is Mukherjee
U.V. Ravindra
Kalpataru Barman wrote:
=> Just curious ! How many Bengalis performed in Hindi film music world
=?
=> Composers :
=> 1. Anil Biswas
=> 2. Pankaj Mallick
=> 3. Salil Chowdhury
=> 4. Hemanta Mukherjee
=> 5. S.D.Burman
=> 6. R.D.Burman
=> 7. Shyamal Mitra
=> Playback :
=> 1. Manna Dey
=> 2. Geeta Roy (Dutt)
=> 3. Hemanta Mukherjee
=> 4. Kishore kumar Ganguly
=> 5. Chandrani Mukherjee
=> 6. Arati Mukherjee
=> 7. Sanu Bhattacharya
1. You forget KCDey, Manna Dey's uncle, and Ashok Kumar.
2. KK's son, Amit Kumar: does he become a bengali, too?
3. I'd put Kishore Kumar in the "composers" list.
4. SDB and RDB do not really belong in that list as Bengalis.
They were from further up East (Manipur/Tripura?): from
the princely dynasty of the Deb-Burmans. Ask the FANatic
Ketan-babu if you don't believe me. :-))
(As an aside, there was a chappie in my hostel named Raja
DebBurman. I always thought the rumor that he was blueblooded
was quite false: we used to call him by the rather unflattering
nickname of "Doby", short for Doberman, and you know how *that*
came about, don't you? I later found out that he *was* the
"Prince of Tripura" or something).
Ravindra.
U.V. Ravindra
Kalyan wrote:
=>
=> In article <33f379a6.860660446@News>, sdu...@bsu.idbsu.edu says...
=> >I am not so sure. How do you define bengalis? My definition is the
=> >one of mother toungue. You are a Tamil if you most often speak in
=> >Tamil to your mother
=>
=> There is yet another definition that can be attributed to Tenali Rama
=> :) There once came a linguist to Krishna Deva Raaya's court and
=> challenged if anybody could determine his mother tongue. Since he was
=> fluent in a number of languages and no trace of any accent whatsoever
=> all the experts in the court failed. That was embarrasing to the king
=> so Tenali Rama said he can find it out easily. He went to the guy and
=> hit him hard and as a result he shouted "mummy" in his mother tongue
=> :)
There is a similar story about Akbar&Birbal, but in this case,
a far less traumatic technique was applied to determine the
polyglot pundit's 'mother-tongue': cold water was splashed on him
while he was asleep, to make him exclaim *something* in his 'first'
language.
Kalyan, you do mean "polyglot" when you say "linguist". And let's
not read "Amar Chitra Katha"-s in our old age and post them on RMIM.
They are totally irrelevant, redundant AND unnecessary here.
=> >Actually by my definition the status of Kishore is cloudy. I do not
=> >know what language he used to follow at home, but given his diction
=> >it may have been bengali.
=>
=> KK (like most people from MP :)) didn't have any Bangla accent as far
=> as I can tell and spoke pure Hindi (KK-baiters, note that I said
=> "pure Hindi" not "pure Urdu" :) ). Same for his brothers. However
Amit
=> Kumar has a pronounced Bangla accent when he's talking.
May be he was packed off to Calcutta or some such place while he was
yet young ... :-) KK's marriages were not what one would term 'stable'
by any stretch of imagination :-)
As for KK-s Urdu accent, to his credit it must be said that it is just
like the Urdu accent of a 'chhora' from the heart of MP!
Isn't Singer Abhijit also a Bengali? What about adding that chap
Shivaji Bhattacharyya (was that his name), the Hemant Kumar "wanna
soundalike" who sang 'ye safar bahut hai kaThin magar ...' in
1942 ALS?
Ravindra.
=> >>Add KK. Also add Bappi
=> >>Lahiri, Dilip Sen-Samir Sen(am assuming they are Bengalis), Pt.
Ravi
=> Shankar
=> >>Banerjee, Timir Baran, S.K. Pal, Arun Kumar Mukherjee(the MD of
=> Parineeta, not
=> >>Uttam Kumar), Kanu Ghosh, Kanu Roy, Pannalal Ghosh.
=>
=> Some more are Mukul Roy (Geeta's brother, MD of Detective, Sailaab
=> etc),
=> Sailesh Mukherjee, R.C. Boral, Jamal Sen.
=> >>
=> >>>=>
=> >>>=> Playback :
=> >>>=> 1. Manna Dey
=> >>>=> 2. Geeta Roy (Dutt)
=> >>>=> 3. Hemanta Mukherjee
=> >>>=> 4. Kishore kumar Ganguly
=> >>>=> 5. Chandrani Mukherjee
=> >>>=> 6. Arati Mukherjee
=> >>>=> 7. Sanu Bhattacharya
=> >>
=> >>Sandhya Mukherjee(or is it Bannerjee),
=> >
=> >It is Mukherjee
=> >
=> >>Anup Ghoshal, Dwijen Mukherjee, Amit
=> >>Kumar Ganguly, Anil Biswas(he has sung one song atleast--I forget
=> which),
=>
=> One song of AnilB I've heard is "Kahe der karat baraati" from
=> Aurat(?).
=> He also has a song in Aarzoo, AFAIR. I've heard he sang quite a few
=> songs in his early years.
=>
=> >> Parul
=> >>Ghosh, Bappi Lahiri, Kumar Sanu.
=>
=> Then there are Shankar Dasgupta, Subir Sen and the latest addition to
=> my
=> list of non-redundant singers - Ranu Mukherjee.
=>
=> Cheers,
=> Kalyan
Dr. Surjit Singh, a CALTECH dad
> >
> >
> >>UVR is right. Remove the Burmans from this list please.
> >
> >I am not so sure. How do you define bengalis? My definition is the one
> >of mother toungue. You are a Tamil if you most often speak in Tamil to
> >your mother (an unnecessary and redundant statement;))
>
> There once came a linguist to Krishna Deva Raaya's court and challenged
> if anybody could determine his mother tongue. Since he was fluent
> in a number of languages and no trace of any accent whatsoever all
> the experts in the court failed. That was embarrasing to the king so
> Tenali Rama said he can find it out easily. He went to the guy and hit
> him hard and as a result he shouted "mummy" in his mother tongue :)
A similar trick was used in one of the episodes of "Hogans's Heroes"
a popular TV show in the sixties. American POW's in a german jail get
a new prisoner whom they suspect to be a german spy. When he falls
sleep, they start a fire. The poor guy wakes up shouting "fire" in
German!
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
<<<<much stuff deleted>>
Ashoke Kumar Sinha
>Siddhartha Duttagupta wrote:
>>
>> But you did forget the maestro
>>
>> Hemant Kumar: Composed mostly songs for himself! How more selfish can
>> you get? The other way of looking at it is nobody would compose for
>> him but himself!
>>
>
>Actually, HK composed more songs for LM than any other singer.
>
>> Question: why didn't Manna Dey and Sudhin Dasgupta compose for
>> Bollywood? I don't think I would have minded "Ami Jamini tumi shashi
>> hey" and "Elo jey barasha" clones?
>>
>
=============
I do not know whether Sudhin Dasgupta had been successful in Hindi
film music, but he was undobtedly one of the finest MDs of Bengal. He
has proved his talent in lots of film and non-film songs. His use of
Manna Dey, Arati Mukherjee and Asha Bhosle always fascinated me. The
music of "Chadmabeshi" ("Chupke Chupke" is the hindi version),
"Pratham Kadam Phool", "Shankhabela", "Jeeban Saikate", "Basanta
Bilaap", "Picnic" etc. are just brilliant. I do think that "Ke pratham
kachhe esechhi" from Shankhabela (by Manna and Lata) is the best
Bengali duet. He somehow manage to get an extra smoothness of voice
from Manna and Asha.
Another contemporary MD was Nachiketa Ghosh. I also like his music but
not as much as Sudhin Dasgupta's. Once one of my friends told me that
Nachiketa Ghosh did compose music for a Hindi film but he forgot the
name of the film - does anybody have any idea?
>I have asked this before but got no response:-( I know Manna Dey
>composed songs for a few films, but I am not sure if it is the same
>person as the singer. Can someone confirm and also list a few of
>his composed songs. I remember some songs from the film 'naina 'for
>which, I think, he was the composer.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Anil
============
Manna Dey did compose some music in Hindi film - as far as I remember
tha name of one of the films was "Nag Panchami".
Ashoke.
Kalpataru Barman
> >=> Just curious ! How many Bengalis performed in Hindi film music world
> >=?
> >=> Composers :
> >=> 1. Anil Biswas
> >=> 2. Pankaj Mallick
> >=> 3. Salil Chowdhury
> >=> 4. Hemanta Mukherjee
> >=> 5. S.D.Burman
> >=> 6. R.D.Burman
> >=> 7. Shyamal Mitra
>
Impossible !! Burman's are Bengalis. SD was a star Bengali singer
before getting into Bombay film music. Lots of SD's music was sung as
super hit modern Bengali song by himself long before they were
composed for Hindi films. Even though originally from Tripura ( in
undivided Bengal ) , SD spent his youth at Ballygunge, Calcutta
( near Vivekananda Park ). After settling at Bombay he sold the
house. People from Tripura are Bengalis. Even today there are two
states in India where Bengali is the major language.
