So When Do We Discuss SRGMP Challenge 2005 ?
Afzal A. Khan
It has been nearly two weeks when we last had something to discuss
relating to the above TV contest. Our friend UVR had some reserva-
tions about the time-frame, and wanted such discussions to take
place after the Pacific Time Repeat Telecast --- which occurs on
Thursday and Friday evenings. But there has been no post from him
(and others) after our last discussion, which featured Nihira's
elimination.
First, let me quote from a post by UVR :
"PS: FWIW, I did watch both the US-Eastern time zone telecasts
this week and, chances are, I'll do the same for the rest
of the C2005 episodes."
So, I presume it would be in order to talk about the last episode
telecast on Monday evening (Republic Day Show). Since our
previous discussion, there have been quite a few developments,
which can be summarized as follows :
In that episode, I think Vineet got the highest votes but Nihira
got eliminated. In the next round Debojit got the highest votes,
but the three other contestants staged a walk-out in protest and
the shooting had to be stopped after some stormy scenes and un -
savoury exchanges between the Mentors themselves, between the
Mentors and some of the audience, between the Mentors and family
members of the contestants and also between the family members
themselves. Debojit's wife was heard to comment that "satrah
saal ki umar men KHud ko Mohammed Rafi samajhne lagte haiN".
Someone from Vineet's family warned her not to say anything about
Vineet at all. And Vineet's father himself told her repeatedly
"hey, bloody, hey bloody...". And all this while there had been
so much talk about Vineet's sanskaar, family values and what not.
It is understood that Himesh Reshammiya had some harsh words to
say to Hemchandra's mother also. The show ended in chaos.
In the next episode, the contestants were contrite, apologised for
their earlier walk-out and agreed to go on with the contest. For
good measure, all three were roundly berated for their boorish
behaviour by Gajendra Singh.
The previous day, Debojit (the highest vote-getter and, therefore,
Challenger # 1) had already sung "Dholi taaro dhol baaje". The
theme was folk songs. The next day, continuing the earlier round,
Vineet sang "Nain laR~jai haiN.." from "Gunga Jumna". He sang
quite well. But I was surprised that he pronounced one word from
the song as "kareeja", not "karijwa". Of course, I am not very
familiar with Bhojpuri, but I think the correct word is "karijwa"
and the same pronunciation was used in the original song. Also,
one remembers the Manna Dey song from "Dooj Ka Chaand" ---
"lagat karij~wa men choT". Hemachandra sang "Bhumbro" and did a
decent job. Himani sang "Morni baagaaN maaN.." from "Lamhe".
When the remaining results were announced, Himani was eliminated.
Everybody shed sustomary tears. All in all, I thought Debu's
rendition of "Dholi taaro" was best.
The Republic Day episode saw the three surviving contestants
singing patriotic songs, at the request of members of our armed
forces. The show was attended by Priyanka Chopra as Chief
Guest. Each singer got to sing two songs (one each as per
request of someone from the Army and the Navy; the Air
Force was somehow forgotten).
Vineet sang : "Kar chale hum fida jaan-o-tan saathiyo" and
"Zindagi maut na ban jaaye sambhaalo yaaro"
Hemachandra sang : "Har karam apna kareNge ai watan tere liye"
and "Vande Mataram" (ARR)
Debojit sang "Ai mere pyaare watan" and
"Sab se aage hoNge hindustaani"
The two eliminated girls --- Nihira and Himani Kapoor --- were
also invited onto the stage and sang "Ai mere watan ke logo".
Nihira sounded far superior to the other girl.
A majority of the audience were supportive of Vineet. Aadesh
Shrivastav and Himesh R. gave Debojit just 4 & 6 on his second
rendition. He certainly deserved better than that.
I am writing this before the telecast of the second day's prog-
ramme, so I would not like to say anything about what happened
there. As far as voting is concerned, Shaan said that viewers
would continue voting for all three episodes (folk songs,
patriotic songs and the third episode -- yet to be telecast).
In the fourth episode, the results would be announced and one
of the three would be eliminated. In the third episode, to
be telecast this evening, each mentor would ask two singers
from other gharaanas to sing a song each. Thus Ismail Darbar
would choose a song for Vineet and another for Hemachandra.
HR would ask Debojit and Hemachandra to sing a song of his
choice, and so on.
Right now, Vineet seems to be the heavy favourite to win the
contest. My own personal preference is for Debojit. In my
view, he "just sings better". Hemachandra has a decent main -
stream voice and good command over technical aspects. His mother
is a noted Telugu singer. But his Urdu/hindi pronunciation
and accent have much room for improvement. He continuously
omits nasal endings, which can be quite irritating.
Vineet has formidable talent but I find his voice a little too
raucous and grating. He does seem to sort of "imitate" Rafi
and Sonu Nigam. But, in my view, his voice does not have the
softness required. Again, just my opinion. Possibly he would
improve later. Also, he seems to do the opposite of Hemachandra
--- he adds or "supplies" nasal endings where these are NOT
required. In the "Haqeeqat" song, he was constantly singing
"saathiyoN" instead of "saathiyo". In the other song too, I
thought he pronounced "yaaro" as "yaaroN".
In my view, Debojit is more "well-rounded", for want of a
better word. He sings sincerely in a quite mellifluous voice.
His rendition of "Ai mere pyaare watan" was a treat to listen.
He has sung other types of songs too with equal ease. And he
seems to have good command over the basics.
In yesterday's episode, Vineet seemed to benefit from the type
of songs he was asked to sing. Madan Mohan's song "Kar chale
hum fida..." is an all-time classic. This and the other
"Haqeeqat" song "Ho ke majboor mujhe..." always bring tears to
my eyes. "Sab se aage hoNge hinduatani" somehow doesn't evoke
the same kind of emotions in the listener.
The antics of Adesh Shrivastava and Himesh Reshammiya are quite
disgusting. Ismail Darbar comes across as a rustic simpleton,
not given much to politicking and underhand machinations.
More later.
Afzal
Vinay
Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> The two eliminated girls --- Nihira and Himani Kapoor --- were
> also invited onto the stage and sang "Ai mere watan ke logo".
> Nihira sounded far superior to the other girl.
>
I agree. It's not a tough decision to make either.
http://www.youtube.com/?v=5gwwLs2o2cE
Vinay
>
> Afzal
asi...@my-deja.com
I think they should start off by awarding 10 points to everyone and
begin deducting 1 point for each mistake. Currently, the marking
system seems arbitrary. After last week's antics, I played Debojit's
qawwali (Yeh Ishq, Ishq) 2-3 times and realised how bad he was (besura,
weird gamaks etc). But yesterday, his "Ai Mere Pyaare Watan" was much
better than the 4 & 6 suggest. If he got 4 & 6, Hemachandra should've
gotten fewer marks. He was simply terrible in the first song. Both
Vinit and Hemachandra mess up the lyrics quite often. Vineet messed up
"Bullah Ki Jaana" some weeks back.
The quality of the three singers make you want to scream for Nihira,
Himani and Sharib to be brought back. :-)
> In my view, Debojit is more "well-rounded", for want of a
> better word. He sings sincerely in a quite mellifluous voice.
> His rendition of "Ai mere pyaare watan" was a treat to listen.
> He has sung other types of songs too with equal ease. And he
> seems to have good command over the basics.
Actually, I had a different opinion. I agree with Aadesh's gentle
slap_on_his_face that he "tries his best". Imho, he just isn't good
enough as he stands now. His 'alankar' leaves me unsatisfied.
Yesterday, after his "Ai Mere Pyaare Watan", my wife and I tried to
determine if he really did have control over shadja and pancham and at
least to our novice ears, we didn't think he did. He seemed very flat.
A classically trained friend of mine got so upset with 'Ishq, Ishq"
that she called me up immediately after the programme and said, "Did
you hear Debojit's narration?" :-) Experts in HCM can articulate
better.
In fact, we *like* Vinit's singing better. While one can find faults, I
think his voice and singing appeal to my senses immediately.
>
> In yesterday's episode, Vineet seemed to benefit from the type
> of songs he was asked to sing. Madan Mohan's song "Kar chale
> hum fida..." is an all-time classic. This and the other
> "Haqeeqat" song "Ho ke majboor mujhe..." always bring tears to
> my eyes. "Sab se aage hoNge hinduatani" somehow doesn't evoke
> the same kind of emotions in the listener.
>
And that, as I've gone on ad nauseum is the problem with the format.
Ismail Durbar has consistently given difficult songs to his team
members. Himesh doesn't seem to know much about HFM and sticks to
standards. Aadesh works around the limitations of his mentees.
ID has consistently *challenged* his mentees. Who in his right mind
would give Daiye Ye from Caravan to Twinkle? O Saathe Re to Nihira - a
song that is not guaranteed to please the front-benchers? This, while
others like Paresh have gotten away by singing songs that were
ordinary.
> The antics of Adesh Shrivastava and Himesh Reshammiya are quite
> disgusting. Ismail Darbar comes across as a rustic simpleton,
> not given much to politicking and underhand machinations.
UVR and I exchanged mails on this and feel the same. ID seems too
unsophisticated to realise that they pulled the rug underneath him.
Himesh is too painful to watch. Yesterday, he was at his cheapest best
with his plea for Vinit to uphold his patriotic promise.blah..blah.
Terrible.
Finally, Nihira showed us what we are missing.
Cheers
Arun
UVR
>
> Right now, Vineet seems to be the heavy favourite to win the
> contest. My own personal preference is for Debojit. In my
> view, he "just sings better".
In that case, I think you will be gratified by Debojit's performance
in today's episode. He acquitted himself quite admirably in this
episode as well, but if reliable internet sources are to be believed,
he has turned in a shockingly brilliant performance of a certain
recent film song today. I will be eagerly looking forward to your
reaction tomorrow.
I personally don't care much for Debojit's voice, per se. I think his
is a very ordinary voice indeed. Of the three, Debojit's is the most
ordinary voice. One thing I will say for him is that he makes a
real effort to sing and very often pulls off things that I would have
frankly put past his ability.
> Hemachandra has a decent main -
> stream voice and good command over technical aspects. His mother
> is a noted Telugu singer. But his Urdu/hindi pronunciation
> and accent have much room for improvement. He continuously
> omits nasal endings, which can be quite irritating.
I am with you on this. See more below.
> Vineet has formidable talent but I find his voice a little too
> raucous and grating. He does seem to sort of "imitate" Rafi
> and Sonu Nigam. But, in my view, his voice does not have the
> softness required. Again, just my opinion. Possibly he would
> improve later. Also, he seems to do the opposite of Hemachandra
> --- he adds or "supplies" nasal endings where these are NOT
> required. In the "Haqeeqat" song, he was constantly singing
> "saathiyoN" instead of "saathiyo". In the other song too, I
> thought he pronounced "yaaro" as "yaaroN".
His was by far the worst intonation of all in Monday's program.
At least Hemachandra and Debojit can make the excuse that
Hindi is not their mother tongue.[1] What excuse does Vinit
have? Hindi is not only his mother tongue, he proudly proclaims
his affiliation to his home town, Lucknow!
That said, aside from the grating nasalizations, I felt Vinit did
a fairly good job with the songs he was given, not in small
measure due to his tendency (and some degree of success)
at aping Sonu Nigam (and trying -- buf failing -- to do likewise
to Rafi).
[1] By the way, notwithstanding what I said about 'mother tongue'
above, I don't feel like cutting Hemachandra any slack just
because his mother tongue is not Hindi. As I have said earlier,
I personally know people who have lived in Andhra all their
lives and have a perfectly decent Hindi/Urdu pronunciation.
Of course, I know the other kind of Telugus also -- who have
lived in 'North' for many years and have still not let go of their
heavily accented Hindi. Oh sure, the former do lapse every
so often into their Hyderabadi-influenced intonation -- saying
"Khayaamat" for qayaamat or "Khasam" for "qasam" :), but
they are capable of fixing it when they put their mind to it.
In any case, for someone who is aspiring to become a main-
stream Hindi singer as Hemachandra is, it's inexcusable.
> In my view, Debojit is more "well-rounded", for want of a
> better word. He sings sincerely in a quite mellifluous voice.
> His rendition of "Ai mere pyaare watan" was a treat to listen.
> He has sung other types of songs too with equal ease. And he
> seems to have good command over the basics.
I think his is the most 'ordinary' voice of the three at this stage,
but the effort and 'heart' he puts into his singing is admirable.
> In yesterday's episode, Vineet seemed to benefit from the type
> of songs he was asked to sing. Madan Mohan's song "Kar chale
> hum fida..." is an all-time classic. This and the other
> "Haqeeqat" song "Ho ke majboor mujhe..." always bring tears to
> my eyes. "Sab se aage hoNge hinduatani" somehow doesn't evoke
> the same kind of emotions in the listener.
At least Debojit didn't say "duniyaawaaloNNNNNN"!
> The antics of Adesh Shrivastava and Himesh Reshammiya are quite
> disgusting. Ismail Darbar comes across as a rustic simpleton,
> not given much to politicking and underhand machinations.
"Rustic simpleton" seems a very apt description of the way he
comes through on the show. As for whether he really is that
way or not, one can't know, can one?
-UVR.
xs...@yahoo.com
UVR wrote:
> [1] By the way, notwithstanding what I said about 'mother tongue'
> above, I don't feel like cutting Hemachandra any slack just
> because his mother tongue is not Hindi. As I have said earlier,
> I personally know people who have lived in Andhra all the
> Of course, I know the other kind of Telugus also -- who have
> lived in 'North' for many years and have still not let go of their
> heavily accented Hindi. Oh sure, the former do lapse every
> so often into their Hyderabadi-influenced intonation -- saying
> "Khayaamat" for qayaamat or "Khasam" for "qasam" :), but
> they are capable of fixing it when they put their mind to it.
> In any case, for someone who is aspiring to become a main-
> stream Hindi singer as Hemachandra is, it's inexcusable.
I think Hemachandra is on a learning curve wrt pronunciation, but
he has an individuality that the others lack. I find Debojit to be a
not very good singer - i swear we had better singers than him
in college. I dont find anything interesting in Vineet's singing.
Hemachandra is the only one who sings in his own way and therefore
least likely to win.
I cant bear the smarmy mentors and the constant melodrama wrt
sanskars and tears and friendship and 'mere paas maa hai' type
dialog. Somebody needs to give Himesh one tight slap. I was rooting
for Nihira who was relatively low-key.
kcp
> My own personal preference is for Debojit. In my
> view, he "just sings better".
> better word. He sings sincerely in a quite mellifluous voice.
> His rendition of "Ai mere pyaare watan" was a treat to listen.
> He has sung other types of songs too with equal ease. And he
> seems to have good command over the basics.
Completely agree...I am a big fan of Debojit
( since earlier mail on him on RMIM
)http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.indian.misc/msg/bb41d21412075aa2
Regds
KCP
kcp
> Hemachandra is the only one who sings in his own way and therefore
> least likely to win.
The latter part of your statement is VERY true ;) :P
KCP
UVR
>
> The quality of the three singers make you want to scream for Nihira,
> Himani and Sharib to be brought back. :-)
Agreed about Nihira and Himani, but not Sharib. I have been
listening to recordings of his songs in earlier episodes and
he's nowhere near deserving a mention in the same breath
as the other two.
Don't get me wrong. He had a good (original) voice, but he
was also too prone to making mistakes.
And please, don't even get me started on Debojit's "ishq ishq".
I don't even want to think about it.
> In fact, we *like* Vinit's singing better. While one can find faults, I
> think his voice and singing appeal to my senses immediately.
Vinit has pulled off some really astonishing surprises -- his
rendition of 'tera jaadoo chal gaya' comes to mind. But his
is not the voice that I like the best. In terms of voice quality,
Hemachandra is the one who appeals to me the most. He
has vocal control, originality and a very good 'recording
voice'. But it's very unlikely he will make it to the final 2,
let alone win the finals -- and not because of his issues
with pronunciation. He simply doesn't have the vote bank
to count on. It's bound to be a Vinit v/s Debojit final, which
Debojit might win by virtue of the NorthEast vote!
> ID has consistently *challenged* his mentees. Who in his right mind
> would give Daiye Ye from Caravan to Twinkle? O Saathe Re to Nihira - a
> song that is not guaranteed to please the front-benchers?
You're committing the same mistake Priyanka Chopra
committed. It's not "*O* saathi re". It's 'saathi re (bhool
na jaana meraa pyaar)"!
-UVR.
yeskay
>> Hemachandra has a decent main -
>> stream voice and good command over technical aspects. His mother
>> is a noted Telugu singer. But his Urdu/hindi pronunciation
>> and accent have much room for improvement. He continuously
>> omits nasal endings, which can be quite irritating.
>>
>>
>
>I am with you on this. See more below.
>
>
Agreed, he has some accent problems in Hindi, but atleast he sings with
his "own" voice and
is soothing to hear. His Saathiya/Rangeela song renditions were
top-notch with some of his own
harkats added. None are that good in that dept. Of all three, he has the
best voice+sur quality. Vineet is bad in low scales, very sugary
otherwise. Can he sing any other song other than
Rafi/Nigam? I like Abhijeet after HC when compared to V.
>[1] By the way, notwithstanding what I said about 'mother tongue'
>above, I don't feel like cutting Hemachandra any slack just
>because his mother tongue is not Hindi. As I have said earlier,
>I personally know people who have lived in Andhra all their
>lives and have a perfectly decent Hindi/Urdu pronunciation.
>Of course, I know the other kind of Telugus also -- who have
>lived in 'North' for many years and have still not let go of their
>heavily accented Hindi. Oh sure, the former do lapse every
>so often into their Hyderabadi-influenced intonation -- saying
>"Khayaamat" for qayaamat or "Khasam" for "qasam" :), but
>they are capable of fixing it when they put their mind to it.
>In any case, for someone who is aspiring to become a main-
>stream Hindi singer as Hemachandra is, it's inexcusable.
>
>
Accent is not that big a sin compared to 'Sur' in singing. I don't get
irritated so much
by bad accent when compared to 'aping' or singing with a false voice
trying to sound like
somebody sweet.
yeskay
>The quality of the three singers make you want to scream for Nihira,
>Himani and Sharib to be brought back. :-)
>
>
I don't feel Sharid can be bracketed with those two better singers.
Also, out of the present three,
other than the diction problems, what do yo think Hemachandra is lacking
in terms of good voice
+ techincal aspects when compared to the "better" ones. His voice is the
most appealing.
asi...@my-deja.com
Actually, Hemachandra makes at 1 mistake in each song where he goes
off-key. Additionally, he makes errors with regard to the lyrics.
I'm not bracketing Sharib with Himani and Nihira. I'm merely stating
that *I* would've preferred him to Debojit. [and Nihira, Himani to
Hemachandra and Vinit.] Obviously, everyone has different tastes and
someone else may prefer Debojit.
Cheers
Arun
arun
lack of it) of his voice. He sings
every song in the same tonal quality and seems like he is imitating
Rafi/Sonu Nigam voice or to draw a playback parallel, as if he is
singing for the same on-screen actor all the time. Compare that to
Rafi or Kishore who had unique "voices" for dozens of on-screen
characters.
Hemachandra has a fresh voice - his hindi diction does set him back.
Debojit is most versatile overall if not technically perfect ...
To draw a parallel in cricket:
Vinit = V sehwag
Hemachandra = Yuvraj Singh
Debojit = 0.33 * pathan + 0.33 * dhoni + 0.33 * ganguly + 0.01 *
agarkar
no body ain't a dravid or tendulkar though...
Infact the contestant that bowed out
Nihira = Dravid
Himani = Laxman
Still no one a Tendulkar or Kapil dev
Oops .. wrong forum..
Arun
UVR
>
> Agreed, he has some accent problems in Hindi, but atleast he sings with
> his "own" voice and
> is soothing to hear. His Saathiya/Rangeela song renditions were
> top-notch with some of his own
> harkats added. None are that good in that dept. Of all three, he has the
> best voice+sur quality. Vineet is bad in low scales, very sugary
> otherwise. Can he sing any other song other than
> Rafi/Nigam? I like Abhijeet after HC when compared to V.
Oh, puh-lease! Abhijeet's was out and out the most 'monochromatic'
voice in the whole competition. Give him a song even an inch outside
his 'comfort zone' and he would fall flat. It's not a nice thing to
say,
but I'll say it anyway: I was actually happy to see him kicked out of
the competition. (Please understand this is not a personal attack
against your preferences; it's my opinion of Abhijeet's skills).
> Accent is not that big a sin compared to 'Sur' in singing.
Agreed. But when you have attained a certain level of comfort
and control over sur, the next thing you should concentrate on
is presentation. You can't just sit cozily in your corner,
content in the knowledge that your sur is better than that of
the other two! Whatever happened to constantly trying to
better yourself?
> I don't get irritated so much
> by bad accent when compared to 'aping' or singing with a false voice
> trying to sound like
> somebody sweet.
I get annoyed by bad pronunciation, but not because it
bothers me (which it does). There's a more fundamental
reason for this: bad pronunciation tells me that the singer
isn't making a sincere effort at all to properly learn the
words of the song he's trying to sing. Why should I support
a singer who doesn't want to put in an honest day's work?
-UVR.
asi...@my-deja.com
arun wrote:
> Debojit = 0.33 * pathan + 0.33 * dhoni + 0.33 * ganguly + 0.01 *
> agarkar
>
Ah, in other words, you meant that he's Afridi. If he connects good,
but if he doesn't, he's bleedin' awful. :-)
Cheers
Arun
arun
way to becoming a Gilchrist.
Also, the SRGMP is more like a super-sixes match rather than a one day
international (much less a test match, which is what it should be) --
hence an Afridi would be a likely winner over the sehwags and yuvrajs.
Arun
Afzal A. Khan
Well, I did listen to yesterday's episode, where the singers
sang songs chosen by "rival" mentors.
Vinit : AS gave him the "Criminal" song "Tu mile dil khile".
He sang it well. But I thought it was a more
"mainstream" song, the type to which old-timers like
me are accustomed. The song itself is quite pleasing
to the ears. Even then, I thought I liked it better
in the original singer's voice. As I said earlier,
Vineet brings to his songs a certain "screechiness"
or a somewhat harsh raucousness which I find grating.
Kumar Sanu sang the original with more softness. Maybe
the MD M.M.Kreem should be given credit for that.
In all such cases, comparisons are inevitable.
AS gave Vinit 10 for this; I thought 8 or 9 might
heve been more appropriate.
ID gave him the "Lagaan" song : "Baar baar haaN.."
I don't want to repeat what I said earlier. But he
did do justice to it. ID gave him 9. Maybe, 8
might have been right.
Hemachandra : HR gave him "Ramta jogi" from "Taal" and gave him
10. ID gave him "Sun mitwa" from "Lagaan" and gave
him 8. In both cases, the marks seemed right.
Debojit : AS gave him "Yeh haseeN waadiyaaN" from "Roja" and gave
him 7. Maybe he deserved 8. HR gave him "O humdum
suniyo re" from "Saathiya" and gave him 10.
The songs given to Debojit seemed to be from two extremes of a
musical spectrum --- the "Roja" song is more of a whisper; the
other song involves full-throated vocal pyrotechnics. And I
thought he really acquitted himself quite well, particularly in
the case of the "Saathiya" song. It is not easy to sing, what
with Rehman's typical touches and interjecting/interrupting lines.
As he bagan singing, I saw HR chuckling derisively. But he did
give him 10, which perhaps was his way of indicating an "unbiased"
approach. Even these marks seemingly indicate a none-too-subtle
manipulation. AS had given Vineet a boost by awarding 10, and
HR responded by giving Hemachandra 10. Though he gave Debu 10
too, but AS had already cut him down to size by giving just 7.
For me, the outstanding singer of the evening was Hemachandra.
His rendition of "Ramta jogi" was just brilliant. If I were to
give marks, I would have given a total of 18 to Hema, 17 to
Debojit and 16 to Vineet.
You ask whether Ismail Darbar is really a "rustic simpleton"
in real life. I am inclined to believe so. However, we are
guided in our perceptions only by what we see on the TV screen.
He is fond of saying "is ne mera kaleja phaaR diya" etc., when-
ever one of his wards sings well. A few episodes earlier, AS
needled him, by telling HIS ward Himani that "tum ne mere dil
ya kaleje ko naheeN phaaRa". Ismail Darbar swallowed the bait
and started protesting. AS, who must have expected such a rash
and unthinking response, smoothly said that "he had every right
to say anything about his own candidate". Anyone with a modicum
of common sense would have immediately understood that it was
merely a trap.
A word about the Chief Guests. Yesterday, Subhash Ghai and Aisha
Takia had been invited. Both praised all three singers quite
lavishly, but their overall preference seemed to be for Vineet.
HR went on cajoling them to say something more in praise of his
candidate. AS was quite obsequious in his comments about Ghai's
knowledge of music etc. Aisha seemed very earnest and sincere
in her comments and was refreshingly modest. In comparison,
Priyanka Chopra (who attended the Republic Day episode) seemed
a little stiff and snooty. Ghai (and probably Aisha too) would
be attending the next episode.
Others writing in this thread have talked about technical
nuances and some singers lacking them. I beg to submit that the
singers should also be judged by their appeal to the common man's
ears. The vast number of film music listeners are by no means
well-versed in these technical details. So many "discerning"
people have called Mukesh "besura" --- yet he was one of our most
popular singers. So many have said that Mohammed Rafi was not a
trained classical singer --- yet he has sung some of the most
memorable classical (i.e. raag-based) songs in HFM. So much can
be said about the technical virtuosity of singers like Kishori
Amonkar and Parween Sultana. But their contribution to HFM is
minimal, and that may not have been entirely through their own
choice.
As for regional bias in public voting, that is something
inevitable, given the type of societal norms that we see
in the mother country. But, for the record, let it be
noted that it wasn't so pronounced in earlier rounds.
I recall that Himani Kapoor topped the list some 3 or 4
rounds earlier. In the round where Nihira got eliminated,
Vineet had the topmost ranking. It is only recently that
public preferences have become polarized. Viewers, particularly
in the North-Eastern region, have woken up to the real backstage
politicking and manipulations that have been going on. As it is,
they have a long-standing feeling of being isolated, of injustice
meted out to them and not being considered part of the mainstream.
I am not saying that such feelings are or may be justified. But
the existence of such feelings cannot be gainsaid. I think I
pointed out in an earlier thread that the total population of
the 8 or 9 North-Eastern States may be around four crores only.
The population of Southern States and the Northern States
(where this programme is avidly watched) may be 5-6 times that
of the Debojit supporters. When the Southern or Northern region
voters make Vineet or Hemachandra the topmost winner, that too
may be an indication of "biased" voting. Surprisingly, Debojit
seems to be getting very few votes from Calcutta/Bengal. Is it
because of the perceived hostility that may exist between the
Assamese and Bengali people ? I thought "Debojit Saha" was
a Bengali name, though he may hail from Assam. Some of our
friends can throw some light on this.
In the "Walk-Out" episode, some of the audience were quite
vociferous and angry. Himesh R., wielding a mike, shouted them
down, proclaiming loudly that "Nihira's elimination earlier
was NO injustice." In other words, he was justifying the lack of
support for Nihira. And, a few episodes earlier, this same guy
was commenting : "In sab logoN ke saath Nihira ka gaana aisa hai
jaise koi dasweeN class ka student paaNchween class ke students
ke saath compete kare". A true chameleon, if there was one.
Finally, I would say that all of them are winners --- including
at least 5 or 6 who got eliminated earlier. They are not yet the
finished product. If competent MDs work on them and try to
smooth their rough edges, all of them are capable of giving us
some memorable music. I recall that Shreya Ghoshal, who has
garnered so many laurels, once got beaten and eliminated in the
same competition a few years back. And we don't even remember who
won THAT episode --- at least I don't.
Afzal
asi...@my-deja.com
Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> For me, the outstanding singer of the evening was Hemachandra.
> His rendition of "Ramta jogi" was just brilliant. If I were to
> give marks, I would have given a total of 18 to Hema, 17 to
> Debojit and 16 to Vineet.
>
Much like UVR, my wife is a lyric and pronunciation devotee. :-) She
was cringing when Hemachandra was singing the song. She finds his
singing quite good, but these errors distract the listener. He sang:
==
mai.n jii aayaa, mai.n jii aayaa
mai.n prem pyaalaa [*JI] aayaa
==
saarii madhushaalaa pii aayaa
Hemachandra sang ma[d]ushalaa - the d as in darwaaza.
==
ye choT jiyaa tak na laagii
- Hemachandra sang "ChhoT" as in *Chh*aayaa
==
UVR has pointed out that these alphabets exist in Telugu and
Hemachandra should not have any excuse.
Cheers
Arun
Vinay
Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> UVR wrote:
> > Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> Vineet has formidable talent but I find his voice a little too
> >> raucous and grating. He does seem to sort of "imitate" Rafi
> >> and Sonu Nigam. But, in my view, his voice does not have the
> >> softness required. Again, just my opinion. Possibly he would
> >> improve later. Also, he seems to do the opposite of Hemachandra
> >> --- he adds or "supplies" nasal endings where these are NOT
> >> required. In the "Haqeeqat" song, he was constantly singing
> >> "saathiyoN" instead of "saathiyo". In the other song too, I
> >> thought he pronounced "yaaro" as "yaaroN".
> >
> >
> > His was by far the worst intonation of all in Monday's program.
> > At least Hemachandra and Debojit can make the excuse that
> > Hindi is not their mother tongue.[1] What excuse does Vinit
> > have? Hindi is not only his mother tongue, he proudly proclaims
> > his affiliation to his home town, Lucknow!
> >
I think in Vinit's case the problem is more of knowledge than ability.
Use of the terminal '.n' for vocatives in Hindi is unfortunately a
rather common mistake. Someone just needs to tell him that. I am not
justifying his use of it in any way; merely pointing that his is
probably the easiest error to correct. I didn't see any other
pronunciation issues in his performance on the 27th's programme. OTOH,
Hemachandra's pronunciation and accent issue seems harder (not
impossible of course) to fix.
I agree that the best rendition of the evening was Hemchandra's
'ramataa jogii'. I also liked Debojit's 'ye hasii.n waadiyaa.N' (it got
a '7' from Adesh, which I think was prejudiced scoring). But at the
same time, I feel Hemachandra also has the credit for the poorest one
of the evening - 'o mitawaa'. The rendition was lacklustre and partly
because of the song itself. (Interestingly, five out of six songs were
by Rahman. Was there some theme going on that I missed?)
My scoring was like this:
Debojit:
ye hasii.n waadiyaa.N - 8
suniyo re - 6
Vinit:
tuu mile - 7
ba.Dhe chalo - 7
Hemachandra:
ramataa jogii - 8
o mitawaa - 5
If this is a talent hunt - which means that they are looking for future
prospects - and if they have to pick just one winner, Vinit sounds the
most promising to me despite his rather less commanding voice (among
the three). He has an appealing approach to singing and can sing a
wider range of songs. Also, his renditions sound clear of any accent
and he is more consistent. He just needs to come out of the aping
mindset (which I think with age and exposure, he will) and needs to
know that 'sambodhan' words do not have the terminal 'n'.
However, I want to mention that this was the only episode that I have
watched in full and my opinions are based only on a limited exposure to
their performances. Also, the show's quality seems to have gone
downhill since the days of 'Sa Re Ga Ma'. It's more gimmicky and less
substantial. Plus Gajraj Singh seems to have lost his sense of picking
judges. No good producer in his right mind will choose these three to
be judges (and that too for the whole competition). They are everything
that a judge/mentor in a such a program should NOT be.
Vinay
>
>
> Afzal
yeskay
>UVR has pointed out that these alphabets exist in Telugu and
>Hemachandra should not have any excuse.
>
>
This is a bad argment. Just because Telugu has such alphabets, why
should be expected to
pronounce those alphabets correctly in an entire different language. If
it not your mother
tongue, which is not spoken at home, any learnt language is bound to be
pronounced
improperly. With all the vowels of French being present in Hindi/Tamil,
can we learn French
and perfectly speak in French like how the French do. No.
Afzal A. Khan
> Gajraj Singh seems to have lost his sense of picking
> judges. No good producer in his right mind will choose these three to
> be judges
> Vinay
Yes. A case of elephantine misjudgment !!
Afzal
Vinay
Vinay wrote:
> substantial. Plus Gajraj Singh seems to have lost his sense of picking
I meant Gajendra Singh of course.
Vinay
yeskay
>Oh, puh-lease! Abhijeet's was out and out the most 'monochromatic'
>voice in the whole competition. Give him a song even an inch outside
>his 'comfort zone' and he would fall flat. It's not a nice thing to
>say,
>but I'll say it anyway: I was actually happy to see him kicked out of
>the competition. (Please understand this is not a personal attack
>against your preferences; it's my opinion of Abhijeet's skills).
>
>
Actually, I meant Debojit. But, I did even like Abhijeet's voice. He
deserved to be in the
top 10 over Rajeev, Paresh or Twinkle..
asi...@my-deja.com
Sure, but in normal conversation. One would imagine that he practices
the songs in front of his mentor. Why then did he not practice
correctly?
The language difference is vital. Arabic does not have P and they have
great difficulty getting that pronunciation right. Hemachandra may not
speak Hindi like a native speaker, but he could learn and it will be
easier for him since his native tongue already has those alphabets.
Cheers
Arun
UVR
> Actually, I meant Debojit. But, I did even like Abhijeet's voice. He
> deserved to be in the top 10 over Rajeev, Paresh or Twinkle..
Agreed w.r.t Rajeev and Paresh, but not w.r.t Twinkle. Twinkle
was [is?] a good bit more versatile a singer than Abhijeet. But,
no point discussing these folks now.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
I don't think this should be all that difficult. You do need
some practice though. Talat Mahmood was originally from
Lucknow, but he knew Bngali quite well. It seems he lived
in Calcutta, learnt the language and became a quite well -
known Bengali singer. Mohd. Rafi was from the Punjab, but
he sang Urdu/hindi songs with perfect ease. It is to be noted
that everbody from the Punjab cannot speak Urdu/hindi in the
proper way with correct pronunciation, without due practice.
People from Andhra Pradesh may perhaps have an advantage over
people from other southern states -- in that Urdu/hindi has been
spoken in that State for very many years. Singers like Hema-
chandra need some tutoring, that is all. And that is where
his mentor has to be faulted. Adesh Shrivastav doesn't seem
to have spent much time over these aspects of his singing.
While Hema was constantly missing all the nasalises endings,
AS was just sitting there unperturbed.
Talking of pronunciation, HR went out of his way to point out
that Debojit's pronunciations in the "Saathiya" were somewhat
wobbly. Just that HR himself pronounced the word as
"ProNOUNciation" !
I am absolutely satisfied that Hema has the potential to
become a quite successful mainstream HFM singer. Only someone
has to work a little bit on these aspects of his singing.
I am sure Javed Akhtar can do the job if Hema gets to sing one
of his compositions.
Afzal
Srinivas Ganti
Different yardstick has to be applied for singing and spoken language.
Various aspects that have to be considered are
1) pronounciation
2) accent
3) grammer
Since I also come from Hyderabad, I can relate to Hemachandra in this
aspect.
It is a long process and the best way to improve is by interacting with
people of that mother tongue.
Many people from Hyderabad who have better Hindi knowledge hail from
Central schools where Hindi is second language.
I have also observed cases where people have very good bookish /
gramatic command on Hindi and also good writing skills but their
speaking is not fluent and they have accent.
UVR
> asi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >UVR has pointed out that these alphabets exist in Telugu and
> >Hemachandra should not have any excuse.
> >
> This is a bad argment.
It's not a bad argument at all. Not only do these sounds exist
in Telugu, some of these sound-combinations (~words) exist,
as well. For example, chOT[a/u], madhu ... you probably
know this already.
> Just because Telugu has such alphabets, why should be
> expected to pronounce those alphabets correctly in an entire
> different language. If it not your mother tongue, which is not spoken
> at home, any learnt language is bound to be pronounced improperly.
*Bound* to? This makes absolutely no sense (to me), sorry.
Just because one is (presumably) speaking a different
language, one's tongue should be excused for suddenly
forgetting how to make the sounds it has happily been
making since it learnt how to speak?
In any case, I really fail to see the point behind your defense
of Hemachandra's (or anyone's) mispronunciations -- even
granting that the task (of singing Hindi songs when one's
mother tongue is a different language) is not easy. This is
a competition, for cryin' out loud, and one where the singers
are supposed to sing Hindi songs. Is it THAT hard to make
a sincere attempt to pronounce it well?
-UVR.
Abhay Jain
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:43E1000C...@privacy.net...
>
> A word about the Chief Guests. Yesterday, Subhash Ghai and Aisha
> Takia had been invited. Both praised all three singers quite
> lavishly, but their overall preference seemed to be for Vineet.
> HR went on cajoling them to say something more in praise of his
> candidate. AS was quite obsequious in his comments about Ghai's
> knowledge of music etc. Aisha seemed very earnest and sincere
> in her comments and was refreshingly modest. In comparison,
> Priyanka Chopra (who attended the Republic Day episode) seemed
> a little stiff and snooty. Ghai (and probably Aisha too) would
> be attending the next episode.
>
Aisha's (I don't know how old ishe is) use of " god bless you"
following useless comment she made for each song was
simply nauseating.
>
>
>
> Afzal
UVR
>
> Well, I did listen to yesterday's episode, where the singers
> sang songs chosen by "rival" mentors.
>
> Vinit : AS gave him the "Criminal" song "Tu mile dil khile".
> He sang it well. But I thought it was a more
> "mainstream" song, the type to which old-timers like
> me are accustomed. The song itself is quite pleasing
> to the ears. Even then, I thought I liked it better
> in the original singer's voice. As I said earlier,
> Vineet brings to his songs a certain "screechiness"
> or a somewhat harsh raucousness which I find grating.
> Kumar Sanu sang the original with more softness. Maybe
> the MD M.M.Kreem should be given credit for that.
> In all such cases, comparisons are inevitable.
> AS gave Vinit 10 for this; I thought 8 or 9 might
> heve been more appropriate.
I felt Vinit aquitted himself very well indeed in the Criminal song.
For one thing, I felt the song brought out as much of Vinit's real,
non-Sonu-aping voice as any song could have, and it was quite
interesting to see how Vinit would sound singing non-Sonu/Rafi
songs. Of course, the Kumar Sanu original was certainly much
better, and softer, sung. However, I feel that we should also give
Vinit some benefit of the doubt in this context -- not only is it
likely
that the sound engineers who worked with MMKreem were a
bit more capable than the Zee TV sound engineers, but it is also
true that a lot (a whole lot) can be achieved in recording studio
sessions that live performers can only dream about.
> ID gave him the "Lagaan" song : "Baar baar haaN.."
> I don't want to repeat what I said earlier. But he
> did do justice to it. ID gave him 9. Maybe, 8
> might have been right.
Agreed. He specifically messed up the "ho o o o" part where
the antara winds up and folds over into the mukhda. I am
sure I heard a wrong note there. ID was being generous.
> Hemachandra : HR gave him "Ramta jogi" from "Taal" and gave him
> 10. ID gave him "Sun mitwa" from "Lagaan" and gave
> him 8. In both cases, the marks seemed right.
He wasn't 'perfect' in ramta jogi; probably a 9 would have sufficed,
but I won't quibble with that extra point.
> Debojit : AS gave him "Yeh haseeN waadiyaaN" from "Roja" and gave
> him 7. Maybe he deserved 8. HR gave him "O humdum
> suniyo re" from "Saathiya" and gave him 10.
>
> The songs given to Debojit seemed to be from two extremes of a
> musical spectrum --- the "Roja" song is more of a whisper; the
> other song involves full-throated vocal pyrotechnics. And I
> thought he really acquitted himself quite well, particularly in
> the case of the "Saathiya" song. It is not easy to sing, what
> with Rehman's typical touches and interjecting/interrupting lines.
> As he bagan singing, I saw HR chuckling derisively.
Interesting that you saw derision there. I felt it was more like a
"oh-DAMN!-you're-actually-friggin'-doing-it-man!" expression
(pardon my French). In other words, HR was surprised that
Debojit not only was meeting the challenge head on, he was
actually doing a damn good job of it. It was like a bowler
had delivered what he considered to be a devastating
inswinger only to realize that the ball has been summarily
dispatched to the boundary by some brilliant strokeplay.
> But he did
> give him 10, which perhaps was his way of indicating an "unbiased"
> approach. Even these marks seemingly indicate a none-too-subtle
> manipulation. AS had given Vineet a boost by awarding 10, and
> HR responded by giving Hemachandra 10. Though he gave Debu 10
> too, but AS had already cut him down to size by giving just 7.
I don't think HR could have not given Debojit 10. Debojit
really shone today in this song. I didn't expect he was
capable of this.
> For me, the outstanding singer of the evening was Hemachandra.
> His rendition of "Ramta jogi" was just brilliant. If I were to
> give marks, I would have given a total of 18 to Hema, 17 to
> Debojit and 16 to Vineet.
I would have ranked them as 1. Debojit, 2. Vinit, 3. Hemachandra
> You ask whether Ismail Darbar is really a "rustic simpleton"
> in real life. I am inclined to believe so. However, we are
> guided in our perceptions only by what we see on the TV screen.
> He is fond of saying "is ne mera kaleja phaaR diya" etc., when-
> ever one of his wards sings well. A few episodes earlier, AS
> needled him, by telling HIS ward Himani that "tum ne mere dil
> ya kaleje ko naheeN phaaRa". Ismail Darbar swallowed the bait
> and started protesting. AS, who must have expected such a rash
> and unthinking response, smoothly said that "he had every right
> to say anything about his own candidate". Anyone with a modicum
> of common sense would have immediately understood that it was
> merely a trap.
I have no disagreement with your asssessment of ID. As Arun
(Simha) has posted earlier in this thread, he and I pretty much
came to the same conclusion in private e-mail (that ID comes
through as being a rustic simpleton).
BTW, I believe the phrase used by ID in the show you allude to
was "tuu ne mere dil ko chhoo liyaa" (v/s kaleje ko phaaR diya)
which AS then picked on by saying (to Himani) "aaj tum ne
mere dil ko naheen chhuaa" (and, to be fair, Himani's singing
day _was_ rather ininspired).
> A word about the Chief Guests. Yesterday, Subhash Ghai and Aisha
> Takia had been invited. Both praised all three singers quite
> lavishly, but their overall preference seemed to be for Vineet.
> HR went on cajoling them to say something more in praise of his
> candidate. AS was quite obsequious in his comments about Ghai's
> knowledge of music etc. Aisha seemed very earnest and sincere
> in her comments and was refreshingly modest. In comparison,
> Priyanka Chopra (who attended the Republic Day episode) seemed
> a little stiff and snooty. Ghai (and probably Aisha too) would
> be attending the next episode.
I didn't think she was being stiff and snooty. Circumspect, maybe.
One has to remember that this episode was only a week after the
protracted participant-walkout drama and circus. She may have
felt (rightly or wrongly) that saying anything about whom she
preferred (I have a feeling it was Vinit) could unnecessarily fan
to life any remaining embers of dying controversy.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
So your ranking for the 27th Jan. programme is :
Debojit -- Vinit -- Hemachandra
I thought you were from Hyderabad, not Assam !!
As regards the sound engineers' prowess, we can apply the
goose/gander theory here also. Did the Zee-wallahs do a
more professional job in the case of Debojit, but left
Vineet high and dry ? One is as good (and pleasant) as
one sounds. If Vineet (to my ears at least) didn't sound
very soft and sweet, it is probably attributable to him
alone. All along, I have been "shouting from the housetops"
that Debojit sounds much softer and sweeter than Vineet
whose voice seems to grate on one's ears. I think we need
not bring the sound engineers in the picture. But, in a
general sense, I do agree with you about the sophistication
available in a regular recording which may not be the case in
this kind of live performance.
HR's derision : I don't quite remember exactly but HR
sort of pointed towards Debojit and started chuckling
as soon as he began singing. And D. did make some
funny faces while singing the opening notes --- this was
probably inevitable, given the nature of the opening
notes. If you have taped the programme, you can watch that
moment again. I think I will give the benefit of doubt to
you rather than HR !!
"Chhoo liya" or "phaaR diya :
Since the last two/three episodes, ID is mostly a silent
spectator. But the last time he used such phraseology,
I am pretty sure it was "phaaR diya", not just "chhoo
liya". The former does sound a little odd, but there you
are. I agree AS used "chhoo liya". I think ID used the
above expression for Himani, when she sang a "soofiyana"
song --- I am not sure though. But I can check up.
Afzal
Afzal A. Khan
> This is
> a competition, for cryin' out loud
Do pardon me, but I think that is exactly what
Vineet has been doing lately !
Afzal
> -UVR.
>
Decent
UVR wrote:
> > For me, the outstanding singer of the evening was Hemachandra.
> > His rendition of "Ramta jogi" was just brilliant. If I were to
> > give marks, I would have given a total of 18 to Hema, 17 to
> > Debojit and 16 to Vineet.
>
> I would have ranked them as 1. Debojit, 2. Vinit, 3. Hemachandra
>
Based on just that show, I would have ranked Hema over Vinit and
Debojit as the best of the three. I am quite surprised that Debojit got
just 6 & 7 points for his redition of "yeh haseen waadiyaan". He
deserved a 9!
******************SPOILER ALERT**********************
It's all over the newspapers in India......but for those in the US
please don't read further if you don't want to know who is out in
today's episode.
UVR's ranking reflects exactly how the people voted after this episode.
I guess Hema got the least votes mostly due to the previous episode
where his singing was not up to his usual mark. Anyways, he is out and
the final will be between Debojit and Vinit. I really hope Deboji wins!
d
Rakesh Sharma
NIHIRA out. That girl has got it all to make it REALLY big in the
industry. also there is this big factor about being non-showy and not
compromising on principles.I remember once she had said'Sirf gaana
gaaoongi' and she stuck to that promise. And sing...how well she did.if
anyone bothers to take note, she is the one to have sung sungs with the
greatest variety, thanks also due to the most unbiased and most
talented mentor on the show...Ismail darbar. For every saathi re bhool
na jaana mera pyar(so difficult...prolly the most diff performance yet)
there was an equally difficult and exhilarating I love you...from hare
rama..I sincerely hope that this girl strrikes it big. And as for her
elimination it just proves the dictum that good singers don't survive
inn reality TV, good actors do. and what about the constant references
to moms and their dreams...it makes me positively nauseated and in
'plain' brit accent is quite GHASTLY.Do join the nihira joshi community
that i have started on orkut. also, i have a bone to pick with all
these self fashioned m'a'ntors...they never did really praise nihira
whole heartedly...vis-a-vis any strictly okayish performance by any
other performer would promptly make them jump out of their seats and do
the customary walk upto the dais and utter absolutely unmeant and
gratuitous niceties. Specially the antics of a certain Himesh make me
wanna head to the neartest basin and throw it all up. THAT GUY IS
DISGUSTING. and as for the winner i sincerely wish neither wins coz
neither deserves to in a competition that also had the undisputed
future of indian playback singing....NIHIRA JOSHI!
kcp
> I don't think HR could have not given Debojit 10.
IMHO - more because Gajendra Singh did not want to create more DRAMA (
Ismail Darbar geting angry because of low votes from the other 2
mentors ) :-)
KCP
kcp
> All along, I have been "shouting from the housetops"
> that Debojit sounds much softer and sweeter than Vineet
> whose voice seems to grate on one's ears.
COMPLETELY agree with you
KCP
UVR
> UVR wrote:
> > Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> >
> >> For me, the outstanding singer of the evening was Hemachandra.
> >> His rendition of "Ramta jogi" was just brilliant. If I were to
> >> give marks, I would have given a total of 18 to Hema, 17 to
> >> Debojit and 16 to Vineet.
> >
> >
> > I would have ranked them as 1. Debojit, 2. Vinit, 3. Hemachandra
> >
>
> Debojit -- Vinit -- Hemachandra
>
> I thought you were from Hyderabad, not Assam !!
I'm not from either place. I'm a Delhiwallah who now lives in the US:)
My ranking here (as well as throughout the program) has been
based on the vocal quality and singing calibre of the participants,
not their looks, or ability to gyrate on stage or otherwise. In the
Dec 27 episode, though in my opinion Debojit's 'yeh haseen
waadiyaan' was comparable to Vinit's 'tu mile dil khile' and weaker
than Hemu's 'ramta jogi', Debojit more than made up for whatever
comparitive shortcomings that existed by turning in that fantastic
rendition of 'o hamdam suniyo re'. Vinit also streaked past Hemu
with the rendition of 'baar baar haaN', IMO.
> As regards the sound engineers' prowess, we can apply the
> goose/gander theory here also. Did the Zee-wallahs do a
> more professional job in the case of Debojit, but left
> Vineet high and dry ? One is as good (and pleasant) as
> one sounds. If Vineet (to my ears at least) didn't sound
> very soft and sweet, it is probably attributable to him
> alone. All along, I have been "shouting from the housetops"
> that Debojit sounds much softer and sweeter than Vineet
> whose voice seems to grate on one's ears. I think we need
> not bring the sound engineers in the picture. But, in a
> general sense, I do agree with you about the sophistication
> available in a regular recording which may not be the case in
> this kind of live performance.
I never said that the sound engineers were partial to Debojit
or Vinit, or anyone else. I mentioned them only because you
were making (an inevitable, in your opinion) comparison to
Kumar Sanu's original from the film's soundtrack. You have
agreed that sound recording can make a difference in such
instances.
As for Debojit's voice being softer than Vinit's, it may be so.
But a softer voice alone does not a sweeter voice make,
much less a better singer. Case in point -- Talat Mahmood
is generally credited with having a softer voice than Rafi,
but would you go so far as to say that Talat was a 'sweeter'
singer than Rafi?
I will say this about Debojit v. Vinit: if, for a moment, you're
willing to set aside your discomfort with what you call Vinit's
screechiness, he has, throughout the competition, been a
(demonstrably!) a better singer than Debojit. OTOH, Debojit
has been pretty mediocre throughout the show. Where he
has a commendable 'o hamdam suniyo re' he has a deplorable
'naa to kaarvaan ki talaash hai'. That's why I consider Vinit
a better singer, overall, than Debojit. It's clear you disagee
with me (since you shout from the rooftops, etc) -- and I am
perfectly happy to let it remain that way.
> HR's derision : I don't quite remember exactly but HR
> sort of pointed towards Debojit and started chuckling
> as soon as he began singing. And D. did make some
> funny faces while singing the opening notes --- this was
> probably inevitable, given the nature of the opening
> notes. If you have taped the programme, you can watch that
> moment again. I think I will give the benefit of doubt to
> you rather than HR !!
I did see it again. I continue to feel that HR was incredulously
slapping his forehead.
> "Chhoo liya" or "phaaR diya :
>
> Since the last two/three episodes, ID is mostly a silent
> spectator. But the last time he used such phraseology,
> I am pretty sure it was "phaaR diya", not just "chhoo
> liya". The former does sound a little odd, but there you
> are. I agree AS used "chhoo liya". I think ID used the
> above expression for Himani, when she sang a "soofiyana"
> song --- I am not sure though. But I can check up.
I am pretty sure AS did say "dil ko naheen chhuaa" and that
ID also did use "chhoo liyaa". What I'm not sure now, after
reading your words above is whether ID also said "phaaR
diyaa" or not. He may have said so, but I do not recall it.
Unfortunately, I have no way of replaying this episode. I'll
appreciate it if you would check up. That way, I'll know if
I need to do something about sharpening my memory.
-UVR. (hardly as young as he used to be)
asi...@my-deja.com
UVR wrote:
> I never said that the sound engineers were partial to Debojit
> or Vinit, or anyone else. I mentioned them only because you
> were making (an inevitable, in your opinion) comparison to
> Kumar Sanu's original from the film's soundtrack. You have
> agreed that sound recording can make a difference in such
> instances.
Too true. One only needs to listen to Himesh Reshamiyya singing in
those skin flicks that are aired on the now-free-B4U music channel. The
chap sounds so different than he did in SRGMP.
>
> As for Debojit's voice being softer than Vinit's, it may be so.
> But a softer voice alone does not a sweeter voice make,
> much less a better singer. Case in point -- Talat Mahmood
> is generally credited with having a softer voice than Rafi,
> but would you go so far as to say that Talat was a 'sweeter'
> singer than Rafi?
I know that such things are subjective, but I would! I've always found
this quality hard to define, but Talat's voice and songs bring a
certain sense of tranquility within me that only Mehdi Hassan can
equal. [I'm not counting HCM or Jazz singers, for there are many, who
have the same effect on me.]. I have a friend who says the exact same
thing about Rafi! :-)
> I am pretty sure AS did say "dil ko naheen chhuaa" and that
> ID also did use "chhoo liyaa". What I'm not sure now, after
> reading your words above is whether ID also said "phaaR
> diyaa" or not. He may have said so, but I do not recall it.
> Unfortunately, I have no way of replaying this episode. I'll
> appreciate it if you would check up. That way, I'll know if
> I need to do something about sharpening my memory.
Aadesh went further. He said something on the lines of "I can't
wantonly(*) say that you've touched my heart, when you haven't." :-) In
other words, he needled ID.
(*) he either said 'khaamkaa' or 'aisa hi nahin keh sakta' - can't
remember the exact words
Cheers
Arun
Afzal A. Khan
>
> As for Debojit's voice being softer than Vinit's, it may be so.
> But a softer voice alone does not a sweeter voice make,
> much less a better singer. Case in point -- Talat Mahmood
> is generally credited with having a softer voice than Rafi,
> but would you go so far as to say that Talat was a 'sweeter'
> singer than Rafi?
I presume you are referring to their respective voices,
and not overall persona. And yes, I do feel that Talat's
was a sweeter voice. I can't imagine a song like the
"Babul" number "Milte hee aankhen dil huwa" would sound
as sweet in Rafi's voice --- and most certainly not, at that
point of time. But you know the old adage about 'horses
for courses'. One can't imagine Talat putting over songs
like "Zindabad, zindabad" or "Duniya ke rakhwaale" with
the kind of verve that was Rafi's forte. Also, I do hope you
are not putting Vineet's singing or his voice more or less on
par with that of Rafi.
>
> I will say this about Debojit v. Vinit: if, for a moment, you're
> willing to set aside your discomfort with what you call Vinit's
> screechiness, he has, throughout the competition, been a
> (demonstrably!) a better singer than Debojit. OTOH, Debojit
> has been pretty mediocre throughout the show. Where he
> has a commendable 'o hamdam suniyo re' he has a deplorable
> 'naa to kaarvaan ki talaash hai'. That's why I consider Vinit
> a better singer, overall, than Debojit. It's clear you disagee
> with me (since you shout from the rooftops, etc) -- and I am
> perfectly happy to let it remain that way.
But that is what the whole argument is about ! If someone
is NOT comfortable with Vinit's screechiness (and finds
Debojit's voice quite sweet and melodious), how can he
conclude that V. is a better singer than D. ? As for
Debojit being "mediocre" THROUGHOUT the show, I beg to
disagree. He simply HAS to have some talent to come up
so far. And it isn't as if he is sustained only by the
North-East vote. Other singers in recent episodes have
finished higher than D. Hemachandra and Nihira were two
such top-finishers. Once Himani Kapoor finished on top.
And in the episode where Nihira got eliminated, it was
Vinit who got the highest number of votes. I would say
that D. has sung consistently well throughout the show.
>
>
>> "Chhoo liya" or "phaaR diya :
>>
>> Since the last two/three episodes, ID is mostly a silent
>> spectator. But the last time he used such phraseology,
>> I am pretty sure it was "phaaR diya", not just "chhoo
>> liya". The former does sound a little odd, but there you
>> are. I agree AS used "chhoo liya". I think ID used the
>> above expression for Himani, when she sang a "soofiyana"
>> song --- I am not sure though. But I can check up.
>
>
> I am pretty sure AS did say "dil ko naheen chhuaa" and that
> ID also did use "chhoo liyaa". What I'm not sure now, after
> reading your words above is whether ID also said "phaaR
> diyaa" or not. He may have said so, but I do not recall it.
> Unfortunately, I have no way of replaying this episode. I'll
> appreciate it if you would check up. That way, I'll know if
> I need to do something about sharpening my memory.
>
> -UVR. (hardly as young as he used to be)
Even ID used the words "chhoo liya" etc. on previous
occasions. But, at least once, he did use the words
"Kaleja phaaR diya". I does sound quite unsophisticated
--- maybe that is why I remembered it.
Afzal
Srinivas Ganti
asi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I know that such things are subjective, but I would! I've always found
> this quality hard to define, but Talat's voice and songs bring a
> certain sense of tranquility within me that only Mehdi Hassan can
> equal.
IMO no one equals MH here. Since a couple of years , I have been
playing
"taazaa havaa bahaar kii dil ka malaal le gaii" every night before
going to sleep.
UVR
> UVR wrote:
>
> > I never said that the sound engineers were partial to Debojit
> > or Vinit, or anyone else. I mentioned them only because you
> > were making (an inevitable, in your opinion) comparison to
> > Kumar Sanu's original from the film's soundtrack. You have
> > agreed that sound recording can make a difference in such
> > instances.
>
> Too true. One only needs to listen to Himesh Reshamiyya singing in
> those skin flicks that are aired on the now-free-B4U music channel. The
> chap sounds so different than he did in SRGMP.
It's not "now-free". It's "free (preview) for now". Read the fine
print that scrolls across the bottom of the screen every so often.
> > As for Debojit's voice being softer than Vinit's, it may be so.
> > But a softer voice alone does not a sweeter voice make,
> > much less a better singer. Case in point -- Talat Mahmood
> > is generally credited with having a softer voice than Rafi,
> > but would you go so far as to say that Talat was a 'sweeter'
> > singer than Rafi?
>
> I know that such things are subjective, but I would! I've always found
> this quality hard to define, but Talat's voice and songs bring a
> certain sense of tranquility within me that only Mehdi Hassan can
> equal. [I'm not counting HCM or Jazz singers, for there are many, who
> have the same effect on me.]. I have a friend who says the exact same
> thing about Rafi! :-)
I hope you aren't referring to me in the last sentence.
Oh wait! I'm sorry. I'm being rather presumptuous about
the 'friendship' thing here.
Talat's voice is not 'sweetER' than Rafi's, but Rafi's is most
definitely a better voice in all respects -- range, power, timbre,
technical prowess. But I guess it's all subjective as you say.
> Aadesh went further. He said something on the lines of "I can't
> wantonly(*) say that you've touched my heart, when you haven't." :-) In
> other words, he needled ID.
>
> (*) he either said 'khaamkaa' or 'aisa hi nahin keh sakta' - can't
> remember the exact words
You can check (and I'll appreciate it if you would), but I'm pretty
sure he didn't say "khaamkaa".
-UVR.
UVR
> UVR wrote:
> >
> > much less a better singer. Case in point -- Talat Mahmood
> > is generally credited with having a softer voice than Rafi,
> > but would you go so far as to say that Talat was a 'sweeter'
> > singer than Rafi?
>
> I presume you are referring to their respective voices,
> and not overall persona. And yes, I do feel that Talat's
> was a sweeter voice. I can't imagine a song like the
> "Babul" number "Milte hee aankhen dil huwa" would sound
> as sweet in Rafi's voice --- and most certainly not, at that
> point of time. But you know the old adage about 'horses
> for courses'. One can't imagine Talat putting over songs
> like "Zindabad, zindabad" or "Duniya ke rakhwaale" with
> the kind of verve that was Rafi's forte.
You make it sound as if the only kind of song that Rafi was
capable of putting across better than Talat was the kind that
required a certain amount of 'shouting' (note: not "screaming").
That's so unfair a characterization, it would deserve no response
if it were coming from someone other than yourself! Rafi's
list of 'soft and sweet' songs is no shorter than Talat's, nor is
his voice in those songs any less sweet than Talat's in his
sweet songs.
But setting aside that discussion for a moment, you have to
agree that as far as overall singing caliber is concerned,
Rafi was by far a better singer than Talat. If nothing else,
the variety of songs Rafi sang competently and beautifully
should be proof enough of this, since it far outdid the
variety of songs Talat did.
> Also, I do hope you
> are not putting Vineet's singing or his voice more or less on
> par with that of Rafi.
The question does not arise! Nobody's (but nobody's) voice
can be at par with Rafi's. Vinit? Pah! I was just using the
example to show that a softer voice does not imply a "better"
singer.
> > I will say this about Debojit v. Vinit: if, for a moment, you're
> > willing to set aside your discomfort with what you call Vinit's
> > screechiness, he has, throughout the competition, been a
> > (demonstrably!) a better singer than Debojit.
>
> But that is what the whole argument is about ! If someone
> is NOT comfortable with Vinit's screechiness (and finds
> Debojit's voice quite sweet and melodious), how can he
> conclude that V. is a better singer than D. ?
Well, I suppose if one's only criteria for adjuding singing
ability are one's own feelings of someone's sweetness and
melodiousness, then nothing else really matters, does it?
I mean, how does it matter if the singer goes off-key or
makes other egregious errors? Sometimes, where the
heart leads, the mind must silently follow, even if it means
commending a really undeserving performance. Yes,
I am referring to your appropatory comments on Debojit's
rendition of 'naa to kaarvaan ki talaash hai' from the
Qawwali episode. While (it can be shown that) Debojit
went repeatedly off-key and off-tune in that song, making
his the worst performance of that episode, you were of the
considered opinion that his rendition "was the best of the
evening"! Please understand that I am saying this not
to insult you, but to point out how far apart we are on
this matter (as well as the factors we each consider to
decide whether we like a singer or not).
So, please just let us agree to disagree about Debojit's
overall caliber/quality/goodness, since I have no energy
left to expend on this particular topic any more. I am
content with being able to commend Debojit when he
does a good job and to criticize him when he does not.
Like I do with Vinit, or Hemachandra.
-UVR.
UVR
"deciphering" the lyrics of the film songs the contestants sing
on SRGMP Challenge 2005 needs to be subjected to the
business end of a loaded bayonet.
My latest tirade has to do with the "ik ser kaaji, ik se kaajaa"
nonsense they peddled in the episode aired yesterday in the
US, while singing the song from the film Masti (2004). The
least they could have done, if they weren't sure of the words,
was to pick up the phone and call Sameer. How hard would
it have been for Gajendra Singh to arrange that (I mean, he
knows how to get Subhash Ghai on the show, for chrissakes!)?
And what was wrong with Vinit? Has he NEVER come across
"a.Ndher nagarii chaupaT raajaa, *Take ser bhaajii, Take ser khaajaa*",
before? I don't know what is more disappointing, that Vinit's
singing or his obvious unfamiliarity with his own mother tongue.
Ugh!
-UVR.
asi...@my-deja.com
My wife and I wondered about that too. But then I went over to
musicindiaonline.com and the original has the word "taka" pronounced by
the chorus ladies in a weird accent. [I guess this is the Delhi school
accent that some others wrote about. :-)] They've actually made the
word 'taka' sound like ek. Go figure!:-)
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/IsKm4eK6.9.As1NMvHdW/
Cheers
Arun
akso...@gmail.com
chat on sify.com with the 3 contestants...Vineet says that he has no
training in music !!!!
Quote
s.katyal asks : Vinit, have you had any training in music before?
Celebrity says: No training, it's God's Gift. My papa used to teach me
before I went to sleep.
Unquote
http://saregamapa.sify.com/chat/
KCP
UVR
> UVR wrote:
> >
> > My latest tirade has to do with the "ik ser kaaji, ik se kaajaa"
> >
> > Have they never come across
> > "a.Ndher nagarii chaupaT raajaa, *Take ser bhaajii, Take ser khaajaa*",
> > before?
>
> musicindiaonline.com and the original has the word "taka" pronounced by
> the chorus ladies in a weird accent. [I guess this is the Delhi school
> accent that some others wrote about. :-)] They've actually made the
> word 'taka' sound like ek. Go figure!:-)
>
> http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/IsKm4eK6.9.As1NMvHdW/
>
> Cheers
> Arun
Therein lies the rub. If they knew the language (or had the
intellectual wherewithal to know that they don't and the humility
to ask for help), they would've ended up knowing what the words
actually are and would have then sung them properly. Instead,
they were content to screw around singing what they thought they
heard. Is this what the future of Hindi film singing holds in
store? Disappointing, I tell you. Disappointing.
-UVR.
PS: Hemachandra sounded the best, so he's the one who's not
going through to the final 2. Nice.
Ashok
>
>Different yardstick has to be applied for singing and spoken language.
>
>Various aspects that have to be considered are
>
>1) pronounciation
>2) accent
>3) grammer
Well, it's good that correct spelling is not a yardstick for
singing or spoken language!
More than that, it turns out that correct spelling is not an
important yardstick for written language either. As a
demonstration, see if you can read the following:
----------------
Olny srmat poelpe can rdae tihs.
cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The
phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are,
the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the
rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it
wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey
lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
if you can raed tihs psas it on !!
------------------
Ashok
UVR
was biased to favor Vinit. What do others think about this?
Vinit did well, I felt, but that was probably to be expected, given
the songs he was handed. Debojit was good in all songs except
'piyu bole' (which he insisted on enunciating as 'pyooN bole',
and) where he missed quite a few notes. But overall, I felt his
was a good performance. I was particularly impressed with
his 'You are my Sonia', which is as Sonu Nigamish a song as
can be.
The judges rankings were just a big NOOP, weren't they?
-UVR.
Ketan
>Olny srmat poelpe can rdae tihs.
rdae? Solhud it not be raed if you flolow the fsirt and lsat lteetr pacrtcie?
Ktean
asi...@my-deja.com
Well, I'm glad it is cricket season and we have something better to
watch. Tuesday's episode witnessed the regular tantrum from petulant
and puerile Himesh. Imho, Debojit sang better than Vinit today. But
Himesh bullied the judges into awarding Vinit high marks. Quite sad.
What an uncultured fellow Himesh has turned out to be.
Cheers
Arun
Hema
UVR wrote:
> For some reason I felt that the song selection for last night's episode
> was biased to favor Vinit. What do others think about this?
Do you mean all the songs featured or just the ones given to Vinit as
opposed to Debojit? In either case, I don't quite agree with you. If
you mean the latter, I think Vinit would have performed equally well if
he was given the songs given to Debojit. If you mean the entire song
selection, well the genX composers had to showcase their own songs
which are limited to begin with. Plus Sonu Nigam is the most prolific
singer today and so its no surprise that all the songs turned out to be
the ones sung by him.
BTW, what would you have done differently to eliminate the bias you are
talking about?
> Vinit did well, I felt, but that was probably to be expected, given
> the songs he was handed. Debojit was good in all songs except
> 'piyu bole' (which he insisted on enunciating as 'pyooN bole',
> and) where he missed quite a few notes. But overall, I felt his
> was a good performance. I was particularly impressed with
> his 'You are my Sonia', which is as Sonu Nigamish a song as
> can be.
I was not impressed with Debojit's rendition of "you are my sonia". In
fact, I am rarely impressed with his singing - just my personal
listening preference I guess. With both Himani and Hemchandra
eliminated now, this week's episode was just okay for me-not very
enjoyable. I didn't see about 3/4th of tuesday's episode and I don't
think I missed anything.
> The judges rankings were just a big NOOP, weren't they?
Here I totally agree with you.
Hema.
UVR
> UVR wrote:
> > For some reason I felt that the song selection for last night's episode
> > was biased to favor Vinit. What do others think about this?
>
> Do you mean all the songs featured or just the ones given to Vinit as
> opposed to Debojit? In either case, I don't quite agree with you. If
> you mean the latter, I think Vinit would have performed equally well if
> he was given the songs given to Debojit. If you mean the entire song
> selection, well the genX composers had to showcase their own songs
> which are limited to begin with. Plus Sonu Nigam is the most prolific
> singer today and so its no surprise that all the songs turned out to be
> the ones sung by him.
I meant that the fact that all songs were Sonu Nigam songs placed
Vinit at an advantage since he tries to mimic Sonu's voice, word
enunciation and so on. These songs were clearly not meant for a
singer with Debojit's voice characteristics. To draw an analogy
from tennis, it was like a match on a clay court between a player
weaned on clay courts and the other on grass.
> BTW, what would you have done differently to eliminate the bias you are
> talking about?
I would have not restricted the MDs to choosing from their own
songs, and instead had them offer Debojit songs sung by Babul
Supriyo or Kumar Sanu. :-)
No, I'm serious. Look, it has been the general practice in HFM
that singers are mainly offered songs to which MDs think they
(the singers) will be able to do proper justice. That's what makes
a Shantanu Moitra offer Sunidhi 'kaisi paheli zindagani' and
Shreya "piyu bole", not vice versa. Or an Ismail Darbar go with
KK for 'ta.Dap ta.Dap ke is dil se aah nikalti rahi' and with Sonu
for 'tera jaadoo chal gaya'. There is zero doubt in my mind that
if (when?) Debojit eventually does sing for our HFM MDs, a
Sonu-type song is exactly the type of song they are NOT going to
offer him. So why bother to 'test' him on that kind of a song?
That too in the final episode? Unless -- and here's a thought --
this was someone's way of ensuring that Vinit would get enough
votes to counter the so-called 'North East bias' Debojit has? Hmm.
> > Vinit did well, I felt, but that was probably to be expected, given
> > the songs he was handed. Debojit was good in all songs except
> > 'piyu bole' (which he insisted on enunciating as 'pyooN bole',
> > and) where he missed quite a few notes. But overall, I felt his
> > was a good performance. I was particularly impressed with
> > his 'You are my Sonia', which is as Sonu Nigamish a song as
> > can be.
>
> I was not impressed with Debojit's rendition of "you are my sonia".
I should clarify what I mean by "I was particularly impressed".
I wasn't impressed with Debojit's rendition of the song per se.
I was impressed, given the circumstances, with the panache
with which he appeared to greet the challenge. Considering
his handicap, I thought he did a better job than I thought he
was capable of.
> In fact, I am rarely impressed with his singing - just my personal
> listening preference I guess. With both Himani and Hemchandra
> eliminated now, this week's episode was just okay for me-not very
> enjoyable. I didn't see about 3/4th of tuesday's episode and I don't
> think I missed anything.
Yes, you didn't.
-UVR.
Decent
UVR wrote:
> > In fact, I am rarely impressed with his singing - just my personal
> > listening preference I guess. With both Himani and Hemchandra
> > eliminated now, this week's episode was just okay for me-not very
> > enjoyable. I didn't see about 3/4th of tuesday's episode and I don't
> > think I missed anything.
>
> Yes, you didn't.
>
> -UVR.
If you think that show was bad, wait till you see the one telecast last
night in India. This was the show performed for a live audience in
Calcutta. Talk about bad/awful singing by both the singers. Is one of
them really going to be the "voice of india"? What a shame!
And that a**hole Himesh just doesn't know when to stop
talking......this show has sunk beyond redemption now.
d
Animesh Kumar
Seems like the mind uses some type of bayesian decision on permutations
of letters using a dictionary stored in the mind. May be a fun thing to
model.
Best,
A
>
> Ashok
>
UVR
>
> If you think that show was bad, wait till you see the one telecast last
> night in India. This was the show performed for a live audience in
> Calcutta. Talk about bad/awful singing by both the singers. Is one of
> them really going to be the "voice of india"? What a shame!
> And that a**hole Himesh just doesn't know when to stop
> talking......this show has sunk beyond redemption now.
I will refrain from making any comments on Himesh R. in public:
my opinion about him, voiced frankly, will be just barely fit for
polite company. I have similar (well, almost) opinions on the
way this episode of the 'show' was put up. As far as the
"singing" (such as it was) goes, all of it was very obviously
lip-synched, and BADly so! I think I even saw Vinit synching with
lines sung by Debojit a couple of times! Gives a whole new
meaning to 'lip service', eh?
<aside>
Do you think these performances (such as they were) should be
included in the reckoning while ranking these two against each
other? On the one hand, they shouldn't -- going by the format of
SRGMP itself: one is supposed to rank the singers based on the
song(s) they sing live. On the other hand, these two are aspiring
to be playback singers, so, singing in a studio environment, which
is what they did here, is what they want to be doing eventually.
So it *is* appropriate to include these initially-studio-sung-and-
later-lip-synched songs in the reckoning. Infact, perhaps these
performances are MORE appropriate to consider than those sung
live. I mean, if one is playback singer, one must sound good
singing playback. No?
</aside>
-UVR.
Sunil Dandekar
UVR wrote:
> I will refrain from making any comments on Himesh R. in public:
> my opinion about him, voiced frankly, will be just barely fit for
> polite company.
I have stopped watching the show after exit of Nihira. I am comforted
by the knowledge that I am not alone in finding HR abhorrent because of
his blatant partisan attitude made worse by his crassness.
regards,
Sunil
UVR
of the SaReGaMaPa Circus 2005, said final episode will be
telecast live on Friday, Feb 25, 2006 at 10:30am US-Eastern
(7:30am US-Pacific).
Be there or be ()^2.
-UVR.
skalr...@yahoo.com
-UVR.
What a waste of time it was watching the Final Episode, Part III
yesterday. I hope Part IV does not steer towards the same route.
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra