Chin-o-arab hamara - A request
Ritu
I have been very engaged by the 'Phir Subh Hogi' soundtrack in a
while. Particularly, Sahir's take off on Allama Iqbal's 'Saare Jahan
se achcha' in 'Chin-o-arab hamara'. I was making a request post here
and then I went to get the lyrics from ISB. To my utmost delight I
found the concerned contributor(s) had already pointed out this
similarity. I am posting this anyway, just incase we have some fresh
points and insights into this piece. I have some doubts on some urdu
words as well. Could someone please help me there.
Also, on a sidenote. With these kind of additional comments the value
of ISB goes up by three folds. Instead of just lyrics posts if we take
sometime to point out notable characteristics in a song.. the whole
effort reaches out to a much larger audience. Nani does it all the
time it might be something the other contributors might want to
consider. As an end user I found that inclusion very very useful.
Though I do understand ISB is meant to first be a lyrics repository.
Anyway, that's a side issue. First please please someone help me out.
Scroll down I've marked out my questions in the text below
Thanks!!
Here we go
\startsong
\stitle{chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa, hindostaa.N hamaaraa}%
\film{Phir Subah Hogi}%
\starring{Raj Kapoor, Mala Sinha, Rehman}%
\singer{Mukesh}%
\music{Khaiyyam}%
\lyrics{Sahir}%
%
% Contributor: Satish Subramanian (subr...@cs.umn.edu)
% Transliterator: Ravi Kant Rai (rr...@ndsun.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu)
% Credits: (BIS...@DELPHI.COM)
% Preetham Gopalaswamy (pree...@eng.umd.edu)
% Editor: Anurag Shankar (anu...@astro.indiana.edu)
%
\printtitle
#indian
%
% Bismil@Delphi comments :-
% This song is a very very clever take-off of Iqbal's Tarana-e-milli.
% Just to show what a clever parody this is of Iqbal, the first verse
of
% Taraanaa-e-milli goes as follows:
%
% Chin-o-arab hamaara
% hindostaan hamaara
% muslim hai hum, vatan hai saara jahaan hamaara
%
% The real beauty of the first verse is that it turns around Iqbal's
% arguably communal and national hymn into a cry of of the oppressed
and
% anguished that is neither communal nor chauvinist nor nationalist,
but
% internationalist. Parts are also recognizable as being borrowed from
% Iqbal's hymn of INDIAN nationalism, "Taraana-e-Hind"
% Some of the references are easily identifiable, especially to
Indians
% who know "saare jahaan se achha".
%
% e.g. ae aab-e-rud-e-Ganga,
% voh din yaad hai tujhko
% utra tere kinaare jab kaarwaan hamaara?
%
% To which the parody goes "sarkon pe ghoomta hai ab kaarwaan hamaara"
%
% or the final line to "saare jahaan" which most people don't know,
goes
% as follows: "iqbal, koyi mehrum apna nahin jahaan mein,
% ma'lum kya kisi ko, dard-e-nihaan hamaara"
%
% Here, of course, it is "milti nahin majoori,
% ma'lum kya kisi ko dard-e-nihaan hamaara"
%
% or, from taraana-e-milli, the line goes:
%
% - ae gulistaan-e-andalus, voh din yaad hai tujh ko
% tha teri daliyon mein jab aashiyaan hamaara?
%
% contrast that with "footpaath bambai ke hai aashiyaan hamaara"
%
% Overall, it seems that the song takes a somewhat dim view of the
lofty
% and grandiose nationalism of Iqbal by presenting some home-truths
% about real present day life.
%
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa, hindostaa.N hamaaraa
rahane ko ghar nahii hai, saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
kholii bhii chhin gaI hai, benche.n bhii chhin gaI hai.n
sa.Dako.n pe ghuumataa hai ab kaaravaa.N hamaaraa
jebe.n hai.n apanii khaalii, kyo.n detaa varanaa gaalii
vo santarii hamaaraa, vo paasabaa.N hamaaraa
===========================================
I could not compeletely grasp the meaning of the above. Who is the
'vo' that is being referred to here?
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
jitanii bhii bilDi.nge.n thii.n, seTho.n ne baa.NT lii hai.n
fuTapaath bamba_ii ke hai.n aashiyaa.N hamaaraa
sone ko ham kalandar, aate hai.n borii bandar
har ek kholii yahaa.N hai raazadaa.N hamaaraa
========================
Shouldn't it be 'Coolie' instead of 'Kholi'
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
tAliim hai adhuurii, milatii nahii majuurii
maaluum kyaa kisIko, dard\-e\-nihaa.N hamaaraa
==================================
What does dard-e-nihan mean?
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
patalaa hai haal\-e\-apanaa, lekin lahuu hai gaa.Dhaa
phaulaad se banaa hai, har naujavaa.N hamaaraa
mil\-julake is vatan ko, aisaa sajaaye.nge ham
hairat se mu.Nh takegaa saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
%
#endindian
\endsong
%
Afzal A. Khan
Ritu wrote:
> Could someone please help me there.
> please please someone help me out.
> Scroll down I've marked out my questions in the text below
>
I don't where to start !
First of all, the old "hai" / "haiN" correction !
Throughout the song, the word for "Hum" is "haiN". And this
is not a pronunciation or nasalization issue. It is
simply a question of singular and plural. I don't know
why people have not pointed this out in similar threads.
"Woh hai" = He is (singular). "Hum haiN" = We are (plural).
The two taraanas penned by Iqbal reflect a change in his
philosophical thinking. Taraana-e-Hindi was composed earlier.
Around 1903 or so. At this time, Iqbal was still thinking
about a composite nation and just one country -- India.
There is a subtle reference to the advent of Muslims in India
(Ae aab~rood-e-ganga...). The second taraana (Taraana-e-
Milli) was composed a few years later. Now Iqbal was
thinking of a single (Muslim) Umma or an international
community of Muslims for whom national boundaries didn't have
any meaning. His entire poetic thought henceforward is
characterised by this Pan-Islamic philosophy. {I am just
explaining the background.}
Also, it is my humble submission that the words "parody"
or "take-off" used in the explanation above are not quite
appropriate. These indicate a rather light-hearted attempt
to spoof the original. But Sahir's song is anything but
light-hearted. He is dead serious. He is talking about the
travails of an ordinary Indian and the grinding poverty in
which he spends his life. He is trying to tug at our
heart-strings. Also, the words "communal" and "national"
used in the preceding explanation provide a misleading
explanation of the themes of Iqbal's two poems. "Communal"
in the literal sense may be correct here, but (unfortunately),
the word is used in a different connotation these days. But
Iqbal is not preaching any hatred here.
> chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa, hindostaa.N hamaaraa
> rahane ko ghar nahii hai, saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
> chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
>
> kholii bhii chhin gaI hai, benche.n bhii chhin gaI hai.n
> sa.Dako.n pe ghuumataa hai ab kaaravaa.N hamaaraa
>
> jebe.n hai.n apanii khaalii, kyo.n detaa varanaa gaalii
> vo santarii hamaaraa, vo paasabaa.N hamaaraa
>
> ===========================================
> I could not compeletely grasp the meaning of the above. Who is the
> 'vo' that is being referred to here?
In the original poem by Iqbal, the reference is to the
lofty Himalayas. But, here, I think the word "woh" is
used in a very mundane sense --- that of the ubiquitous
Watchman who shoos away all such vagrants and beggars.
"Hamaara" here is rather satirical, in that the Watchman
is actually guarding the rich men's mansions etc.
>
> chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
>
> jitanii bhii bilDi.nge.n thii.n, seTho.n ne baa.NT lii hai.n
> fuTapaath bamba_ii ke hai.n aashiyaa.N hamaaraa
> sone ko ham kalandar, aate hai.n borii bandar
>
> har ek kholii yahaa.N hai raazadaa.N hamaaraa
> ========================
> Shouldn't it be 'Coolie' instead of 'Kholi'
I think the word in the song is indeed "coolie"
or "quli" -- the Urdu equivalent. Also, I think there
is a "ka" after "yahaaN".
>
> chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
>
> tAliim hai adhuurii, milatii nahii majuurii
> maaluum kyaa kisIko, dard\-e\-nihaa.N hamaaraa
> ==================================
>
> What does dard-e-nihan mean?
The hidden anguish. NihaaN = Chhupa huwa
Afzal
Sudhir
> ===========================================
> I could not compeletely grasp the meaning of the above. Who is the
> 'vo' that is being referred to here?
by Sudhir: 'Vo' is Almight God
He 'Dikho Darshan' in the other solo, but was very busy
looking after the affairs of his creation
Aasman Pe Hai Khuda Aur Zameen Pe Hum
Aajkal Vo Is Taraf Dekhta Hai Kum
>
>
> ========================
> Shouldn't it be 'Coolie' instead of 'Kholi'
by Sudhir: It is Coolie. The English word was adopted from
Hindi, and not the other way around. So, should
be spelled with: 'K'
>
> What does dard-e-nihan mean?
by Sudhir: Dil Mein Chhupa Dard (most probably)
>
> chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
>
> patalaa hai haal\-e\-apanaa, lekin lahuu hai gaa.Dhaa
> phaulaad se banaa hai, har naujavaa.N hamaaraa
> mil\-julake is vatan ko, aisaa sajaaye.nge ham
> hairat se mu.Nh takegaa saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
> chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
by Sudhir: The last para was not in the 78 rpm version.
To me, it does not jive well with rest of the
lyrics, specially the closing line
Sudhir
Vijay Kumar
>
>
>
> In the original poem by Iqbal, the reference is to the
> lofty Himalayas.
It goes something like:
parbat jo sabh se ooNchaa, hamsayaa aasmaaN ka
voh saNtrii hamaaraa voh paasbaaN hamaaraa
> But, here, I think the word "woh" is
> used in a very mundane sense --- that of the ubiquitous
> Watchman who shoos away all such vagrants and beggars.
> "Hamaara" here is rather satirical, in that the Watchman
> is actually guarding the rich men's mansions etc.
>
I haven't seen the movie. The above explanation is the more logical
one as it is in keeping with the ethos of the rest of this naz'm. I
have, however, wondered if in the traditional Urdu Poetry parlance*,
the Watchman here is guarding the 'beloved's' house. In classical urdu
poetry parlance, getting the watchman on one's side was considered as
more than half the battle won. Hence the lament that if I only had
money, this paasbaaN wouldn't have shooed me away so
unceremoniously.**
But as the movie is supposed to be 'inpired' by Crime and Punishment,
the above scenario is likely not the one played out in the movie.
Vijay Kumar
* I once posted a few such urdu couplets on this subject of
paasbaan-o-darbaan on ALUP.
** kis kii taaziim ko uthna hai, jhiRkana hai kise
ik naz'r dekh ke darbaan samajh lete haiN
Satish Kalra
news:58f08299.04052...@posting.google.com...
...snipped....
> It goes something like:
>
> parbat jo sabh se ooNchaa, hamsayaa aasmaaN ka
> voh saNtrii hamaaraa voh paasbaaN hamaaraa
>
>
> I haven't seen the movie. The above explanation is the more logical
> one as it is in keeping with the ethos of the rest of this naz'm. I
> have, however, wondered if in the traditional Urdu Poetry parlance*,
> the Watchman here is guarding the 'beloved's' house. In classical urdu
> poetry parlance, getting the watchman on one's side was considered as
> more than half the battle won. Hence the lament that if I only had
> money, this paasbaaN wouldn't have shooed me away so
> unceremoniously.**
The "santarii" referred to in the song, and AFAIR shown in the movie, is a
police constable. Hence the words, "jeben hain apanii kahaalii, kyon detaa
varnaa gaalii, vo santarii hamaara...".
--
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra
Afzal A. Khan
I think you should see the movie. In the early part,
it is a bit like what people refer to as "film noire".
As the movie progresses, the film-makers seem to
compromise with the demands of the box office. There is
a romantic angle -- in regular filmi style. Also some
light moments through Rehman. And Mala Sinha is shown
in a "kaashTa" most of the time. Perhaps Shri Sudhir-ji
should also see the movie.
The above song has no connection with the "traditional
Urdu parlance". As I said earlier in the thread, the
poet, music director and the singer are all dead
serious. The idea is to bring home to the audience the
grinding poverty in which the hero and most of his
countrymen find themselves. And, in this context, Sahir's
leftist leanings are quite well-known.
Afzal
Vijay Kumar K
Indeed... Raj Kapoor having lost his kholii is looking for a place to sleep
and settles down at the Gateway of India from which he is shooed away by a
constable. He then proceeds to VT "sone ko ham kalandar, jaate hai.n
bori bandar, har ek kulii yahaa.N kaa hai raaz_daa.N hamaaraa" and settles
for the night.
As to the last lines not being in tune with the sentiment of the rest of
the song (re: Sudhir's post) - the last lines are what define the entire
character of the song for me. There is despair, desperation and desolation
(pardon the alliteration) - and yet there is defiance, hope. I do not
remember where in the film these lines appear (perhaps nowhere since they
do not go with the mood of the film), but these lines help the song to
stand on its own as great poetry, capturing the mood of the nation at the
time. He is not merely holding up a mirror but he is creating a painting
with the Rembrandtesque highlighting of the positive aspects. To me, that
is part of Sahir's greatness, (which comes out much better in Phir Subah Hogi
than the more celebrated Pyasa) he does not just lament, or lambast, he also
paints a picture of hope, humour and simple dignity. As a poet and as a
person, I am much more closely aligned with this philosophy than a pure
"gloom and doom" prophecy.
Finally, responding to Afzal's post where he laments that the film bows to
"commercial" pressures in introducing a love interest. Crime and Punishment
is a very "intellectual" book. It's greatest parts are when dealing with the
state of the mind of Raskolnikov , surely difficult to present in a visual
medium. Some "commercialization" is to be expected in dealing with such
difficult material. Besides, the character of Sofia *does* play a significant
role in the original book, parallel to that of Mala Sinha, although her
antecedents are less respectable than Mala Sinha's. My apologies if my
memory is playing tricks - it is a long time since I read the book and saw
the film.
Vijay
Ritu
Thanks Afzal Saab and everyone else who chipped into this thread. My
enjoyment of the song has increased by two folds after knowing what
the original lines were. Sahir did have a great sense of humour even
though at times he got too cynical. But then I guess that was the era.
Another question that crosses my mind is the vintage of this film. I
assume it is the late 50s. That seemed to be the era when the optimism
of independence was diminishing just a little and people were
beginning to question. Apart from this song we have the Pyaasa songs
and then Kavi Pradeep's 'Dekh tere sansar ki haalat' which play around
with a similiar sentiment.
It would be interesting to know from the knowledgable people, the
genesis of this kind of poetry and also apart from Sahir who else
wrote these kind of lyrics for the film medium.
Regards
Ritu'
Vijay Kumar
> Finally, responding to Afzal's post where he laments that the film bows to
> "commercial" pressures in introducing a love interest. Crime and Punishment
> is a very "intellectual" book. It's greatest parts are when dealing with the
> state of the mind of Raskolnikov , surely difficult to present in a visual
> medium. Some "commercialization" is to be expected in dealing with such
> difficult material. Besides, the character of Sofia *does* play a significant
> role in the original book, parallel to that of Mala Sinha, although her
> antecedents are less respectable than Mala Sinha's. My apologies if my
> memory is playing tricks - it is a long time since I read the book and saw
> the film.
>
I would like to hear your (and others', who have seen the movie and
read Crime and Punishment) views on how good (or bad) a Raskolnikov
Raj Kapoor makes. Somehow, I have never been able to see Raj Kapoor in
this role. Dilip Kumar maybe, the theatre actors like Nasirudiin Shah,
Dinesh Thakur or Amol Palekar certainly, but Raj Kapoor seems a bit of
a stretch. All IMHO, of course.
Vijay Kumar
Vinayak K.Gore
> and then Kavi Pradeep's 'Dekh tere sansar ki haalat' which play around
> with a similiar sentiment.
Ritu
Sahir also wrote a parody of "dekh tere sa.nsar kii haalat" as "dekh
tere bhagwaan kii haalat kya ho gayi insaan, kitanaa badal gayaa
bhagwaan".He has accused god of helping the rich ' unhii ke ghar me.n
Deraa Daale laxmii kaa hoo varadaan".The song is sung by Rafi in the
film Railway Platform.
However in my opinion the Railway Platform song is not as good as
"chiino arab hamaraa".Especially in the second stanza Sahir has
diluted the inetnsity by writing some Gujarati stuff which does not
make much sense to me.
Come to think of it, Sahir is the only lyricist who wrote parodies in
film songs.
Vinayak
>
>
Afzal A. Khan
Ritu wrote:
>
> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<40B66C0A...@privacy.net>...
>
> Thanks Afzal Saab and everyone else who chipped into this thread. My
> enjoyment of the song has increased by two folds after knowing what
> the original lines were. Sahir did have a great sense of humour even
> though at times he got too cynical. But then I guess that was the era.
>
> Another question that crosses my mind is the vintage of this film. I
> assume it is the late 50s. That seemed to be the era when the optimism
> of independence was diminishing just a little and people were
> beginning to question. Apart from this song we have the Pyaasa songs
> and then Kavi Pradeep's 'Dekh tere sansar ki haalat' which play around
> with a similiar sentiment.
> Ritu'
The film was released in 1958.
I think the cynicism involved here related more to the
conflict between Imperialism/Capitalism and Socialism.
I think people's faith and hope in our country's
bright future and greatness lasted a little longer, till
1962. It was only the Chinese War in late '62 that led to
a rude awakening. Nehru, though he is much reviled these
days, was arguably the most popular Prime Minister we had.
People had immense faith in him and his world stature.
I recall seeing "Hum Hindustani" in February 1961 and
the film-goer's reaction was anything but cynical. By
way of contrast, people found "Leader" (1964) anything but
inspiring. I suppose the film-maker was responsible for
churning out a ridiculous film. I thought the only
redeeming feature was Naushad's music.
Afzal
Satish Kalra
>
>
> Ritu wrote:
> >
> > "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:<40B66C0A...@privacy.net>...
> >
> > Thanks Afzal Saab and everyone else who chipped into this thread. My
> > enjoyment of the song has increased by two folds after knowing what
> > the original lines were. Sahir did have a great sense of humour even
> > though at times he got too cynical. But then I guess that was the era.
> >
> > Another question that crosses my mind is the vintage of this film. I
> > assume it is the late 50s. That seemed to be the era when the optimism
> > of independence was diminishing just a little and people were
> > beginning to question. Apart from this song we have the Pyaasa songs
> > and then Kavi Pradeep's 'Dekh tere sansar ki haalat' which play around
> > with a similiar sentiment.
>
> By way of contrast, people found "Leader" (1964) anything but
> inspiring. I suppose the film-maker was responsible for
> churning out a ridiculous film. I thought the only
> redeeming feature was Naushad's music.
Leader's music a redeeming feature of the film! Not even by a remote
chance. It was a "nonsense" film, with equally poor music. One of those
films that gave me headache when I saw it.
Abhay Jain
> > inspiring. I suppose the film-maker was responsible for
> > churning out a ridiculous film. I thought the only
> > redeeming feature was Naushad's music.
>
> Leader's music a redeeming feature of the film! Not even by a remote
> chance. It was a "nonsense" film, with equally poor music. One of those
> films that gave me headache when I saw it.
>
Leader was definitely a low point for Naushad.
Around the same time Naushad had more duds like
Aadmi, Dil Diya Dard Liya.
Abhay Jain
Ashok
>
>Finally, responding to Afzal's post where he laments that the film bows to
>"commercial" pressures in introducing a love interest. Crime and Punishment
>is a very "intellectual" book. It's greatest parts are when dealing with the
>state of the mind of Raskolnikov , surely difficult to present in a visual
>medium. Some "commercialization" is to be expected in dealing with such
>difficult material. Besides, the character of Sofia *does* play a significant
>role in the original book, parallel to that of Mala Sinha, although her
>antecedents are less respectable than Mala Sinha's. My apologies if my
>memory is playing tricks - it is a long time since I read the book and saw
>the film.
>
>Vijay
You are right. There is a romantic angle in the novel itself.
She accompanies the hero to Siberia and he is highly touched
by her gesture. Toward the close of the book, there is a great
line, something like: Life stepped in, in place of theory.
Why are her background less respectable? Remember the rich
guy who is spurned by her and kills himself?
By the way, who is which Vijay on this thread?
Ashok
Vijay Kumar K
Sofia/Sonya in the book is a prostitute, forced into the profession by the
delinquency of a drunkard father who is killed in a street accident.
AFAIR, Mala Sinha is from a more respectable background and the song
aasamaa.N pe hai Khudaa is at a party where she is a guest. I recall that
she is more at home in that party than Raj Kapoor is and the party is a bit
of an up-scale affair.
Here is a link with a book summary
community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/courses/previous/ru351/novels/cp/CPstudy.shtml
I don't think all the characters of the book are represented in the
film. Raskolnikov has a friend who takes great interest in his sister
and family. There is a doctor who is also attracted to his sister. And then
there is the debauched rich landlord who commits suicide after making a
pass at his sister. I do not recall the sister at all in the film. And
there are two policemen - I don't recall either playing a significant role.
"Vijay Kumar K" is the ISB wala. "Vijay Kumar" is the one who got us all
those rare Saigal and Master Madan songs.
Vijay
Surjit Singh
>
> Come to think of it, Sahir is the only lyricist who wrote parodies in
> film songs.
Are you sure about that? A study of HFGK vols 1 and 2 can tell you that
there were film songs parodies before Sahir showed up. Some have been
mentioned on RMIM. Kids can tell you that they are being written even
after Sahir has gone.
>
> Vinayak
>
>>
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
Visit my home page at
http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html
Vijay Kumar
"Vijay Kumar K" <vijay...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:f9e9d452.04060...@posting.google.com...
>
> "Vijay Kumar K" is the ISB wala. "Vijay Kumar" is the one who got us all
> those rare Saigal and Master Madan songs.
>
There is an occasional third Vijay Kumar, that is I, from ALUP; but I am
even less occasional on ALUP these days!
Vijay Kumar
V S Rawat
> "Vijay Kumar K" is the ISB wala.
Oh yeah! the ISB. good to remember.
any developments?
> "Vijay Kumar" is the one who got us all those rare Saigal
> and Master Madan songs.
Seems I have not followed the threads where that was
discussed. I think there are just two well known ghazals of
master madan. Do you have any other one(s)?
-Rawat
V S Rawat
Aadmi's aaj puraani raaho.n se, Dil Diya Dard Liya's ko_ii
saagar dil ko were excelent songs.
Leader best could be "mujhe duniyaa waalo.n" but that does
not measure up to the above two.
ek shahanshaah ne was a big letdown thinking about the
heights sahir's version has ascended.
-rawat
Srinivas Ganti
"Vijay Kumar" <vij...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:c9l1n6$jmq$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
I used to distinguish him before since he used to posts from guzoon at
hotmail.com !!!
But now he has changed that too !
Atleast the three Vandana's we used to have had different last names...Vijay
Kumar
is more confusing :)
sg.
V S Rawat
Proves that some mafia-oriented RMIMers reply on the basis
of who has written, and not on the basis of what is written.
-Rawat
Vijay Kumar
> I used to distinguish him before since he used to posts from guzoon at
> hotmail.com !!!
> But now he has changed that too !
>
Only because Google has been on the blink and I used an alternative
address to post. There has been at least one other (a fourth one)
Vijay Kumar who posted a few times on ALUP (and, I think, cross posted
to RMIM) who was a most obnoxious creature from the UK somewhere.
Many, but IIRC, Ashok particularly, set him right and he never
re-appeared.
I find it useful too to distinguish homonymous people from their
e-mail addresses. Vijay Kumar of ISB, ONTOH, I have always been able
to recognise from the additional K in his signature.
Vijay Kumar
ham ko accha nahiiN lagta koii ham-naam teraa
koii tujh sa hi to phir naam bhii tujh sa rakkhe:-)
F'raaz
Sudhir
========
May be, I didn't make my point clear for the last paragraph:
patalaa hai haal\-e\-apanaa, lekin lahuu hai gaa.Dhaa
phaulaad se banaa hai, har naujavaa.N hamaaraa
mil\-julake is vatan ko, aisaa sajaaye.nge ham
hairat se mu.Nh takegaa saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
The last line: chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa (repeat of title line) is
in-appropriate.
Since the lyrics have already switched from despair to hope, so any
reference to prior bad situation (that is: Cheen-o-arab) should be
avoided.
The song should have ended with:
Hindustan Hamara, repeats hummming and fade-out
or any other varioation
The music director did not make the same mistake, when he composed
another similar two-outlook song of Sahir
Main Pal Do Pal Ka Shair Hoon and
Main Har Ik Pal Ka Shair Hoon
rendered by Mukesh (that is all the artists are the same for Phir
Subah Hogi
and Kabhi Kabhi)
Sudhir
P.S.: This is not the first song, which started with mood of despair
and
then hope for future. A much better writing was created by
Aarzoo Lucknavi for:
DUSHMAN / Karoon Kya Aas Niras Bhayi, ending with
Kaho Na Aas Niras Bhayi
Karna Hoga Khoon Ka Pani
Dena Hogi Har Qurbani
Himmat Hai
Itni to Samajh Le
Aas Bandhegi
Nayi
Kaho Na Aas Niras Bhayi
One can not hope to find a better write-up than that of this song.
---------------
vijay...@my-deja.com (Vijay Kumar K) wrote in message >
> As to the last lines not being in tune with the sentiment of the rest of
> the song (re: Sudhir's post) - the last lines are what define the entire
> character of the song for me.
>
> Vijay
Ket...@att.net
>
> chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa \threedots
Any idea why Sahir uses "Chin-o-arab" here? Does it have anything to do with
Nehru's then "Hindi-Chini-bhai-bhai"(later on bye-bye and today buy-buy)? If so,
where and how does the Arab part come in? Not sure if it has already been
addressed since I have missed a few posts in this thread.
Ketan
Afzal A. Khan
It is true that the original poem by Iqbal was written
in a different context. But, here, we are concerned with
Sahir's take on an altered theme, though he does "parody"
the opening line of Iqbal. I would say that the repetition
of this line at the end is in keeping with the mood of hope
that characterises the preceding lines. What Sahir is trying
to say is that once we become united, strong and prosperous,
the sky is the limit. Even China and Arabia (read, Mid-East)
are not beyond us. And I think this hope is slowly proving
correct, though it might not have been foreseen by Sahir.
The Indian Diaspora can be seen thriving in many parts of the
world. I think we make up the largest percentage of the
expatriate population in the Middle East. And just look at
the clout and achievements of Indians in North America. We
have posts in our NewsGroup from Indians well-established in
the United Kingdom and Germany. And I believe one RMIMer is
holding aloft the Indian flag even in China !
As regards the Dushman song, the postulate would be correct
only if you read and interpret the last line in a particular
way : "Kaho Na" = Do NOT say. Not in the sense of
"kaho na pyaar hai" !
Afzal
UVR
> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:40BD2500...@privacy.net...
>
>> By way of contrast, people found "Leader" (1964) anything but
>> inspiring. I suppose the film-maker was responsible for
>> churning out a ridiculous film. I thought the only
>> redeeming feature was Naushad's music.
>
>
> Leader's music a redeeming feature of the film! Not even by a remote
> chance. It was a "nonsense" film, with equally poor music. One of those
> films that gave me headache when I saw it.
IIRC, this is verily the first time I'm disagreeing with you,
Kalra-ji. In re "poor music" in Leader, I'd like to draw your
attention to the following:
. ik shanshaah ne banwaa ke haseen tajmahal
A very nicely composed song to which Lata and Rafi's
voices do complete justice.
. tere husn ki kyaa taareef karoon
How full of 'shoKhi' Rafi sounds when he sings
"terii baat me.n giito.n kii sargam
terii chaal me.n payaala kii chham-chham"
(especially that second line)
Another Rafi song from Leader I like is
. hamii.n se muhabbat hamii.n se la.Daa_ii
are maar Daala do-haa_ii do-haa_ii
I'm not as enamored of 'aaj kal shauq-e-deedaar hai', 'aaj hai
pyaar kaa faisalaa'. 'apanii aazaadii ko ham hargiz miTaa sakte
naheen' used to draw me to the TV when I was a kid, but I've
grown a bit tired of it now. But overall, as far as the music
itself goes, I wouldn't call any of these a "poor" song, per se.
-UVR.
UVR
I'm more than sure that this is a (caustic) parody on the
poet Iqbal's 'taraana-e-milli', which starts:
chiin-o-arab hamaaraa, hindositaa.N hamaaraa
muslim hai.n ham, watan hai saaraa jahaaN hamaaraa
As Afzal saahib has mentioned earlier in this thread, the
'taraana-e-milli' itself was based on Iqbal's 'taraana-e-
hindi', which latter all of us know as the famous 'saare
jahaa.N se achchhaa, hindositaa.N hamaaraa'
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
I had used the word "redeeming" advisedly.
The film was by no means a flop. But, as I said, it
was a ridiculous film. Apart from Vyjayanthimala's
dances to some extent, what else prevented the film
from being a colossal flop ? Naushad was way past his
prime, but (compared to films like "Aadmi" and "Palki"),
his music in "Leader" was definitely much better.
To the songs you have mentioned, I would add the Asha/
Rafi song : "Daiyya re daiyya, laaj mohe....". Here
Rafi does nothing except add an alaap or two. But I
thought it was an exquisite song.
"Mujhe duniya waalo..." became very popular, but I didn't
like it much.
Afzal
Ashok
>
>
>............................................What Sahir is trying
> the sky is the limit. Even China and Arabia (read, Mid-East)
> are not beyond us.
> Afzal
So, what you are attributing to Sahir in the late 1950s is this
sentiment: The ultimate achievement India can dream of is to
match China and "Mid-East".
Any comment one might make would be inadeqaute!
Ashok
Afzal A. Khan
It is not something that I attribute to him. He did say it
himself ---> "Cheen-o-Arab hamaara". In fact, I tried to
expand the scope ("sky is the limit"). China and the mid-East
would no doubt make a nice beginning !
It would be nice if you could post your own interpretation
here.
Afzal
Vinay
I don't think that's what he is saying there. To me it looks like the
continuation (and what beautiful and subtle one) of the last line of
the last she'r/stanza. He says:
mil-jul ke is watan ko, aisaa sajaae.Nge ham
hairat se mu.Nh takegaa, saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
chiin-o-arab hamaaraa..
Now I see it like this:
hairat se mu.Nh takegaa: saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa; chin-o-arab
hamaaraa.
What further strengthens this reasoning is that he does not add
'hindostaa.N hamaaraa' in the end. Adding this line, of course, will
make this interpretation invalid.
Just my 2 cents.
Vinay
Afzal A. Khan
Vinay wrote:
>
> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<40BF3B9B...@privacy.net>...
> >
> >
> >
I didn't quite follow your interpretation here. Perhaps,
according to you, Sahir is saying : "Jab hum apne watan ko
KHoob saja leNge, tab tamaam duniya hairat se hmaara mooNh
takegi". And, here, "duniya" or "jahaaN" would include
China and Arabia too. Can you elaborate ?
Frankly, it is difficult to guess why Sahir chose Iqbal's
second poem, rather than the first, to base his lyrics in
this song. As I explained earlier, the second poem is
"Islam/Muslims~specific". And this sectarian approach is
not at all relevant to the theme of this film.
Now let us suppose he had chosen the first poem only. In
that case, there would have been no mention of "Cheen-o-
Arab". Since he is contrasting the poverty and misery
prevalent all over the country with the lofty passages
praising the greatness of India (i.e. this country) itself,
he could have been accused of denigrating a most popular
national song and, in the process, our own country. And
that would have been termed unpatriotic. There could have
been a public furore. Quite possibly, Sahir chose to
dilute the "India~specific" allusions by including passages
from the other (second) poem, extending the range of com-
parison to China and Arabia. "On the one hand, we take
great pride in claiming that even China and Arabia are ours,
but the ground reality is completely different. For the poor
masses here have no roof over their head. And then we say
that the whole world is ours !". All this, of course, in
a satirical vein.
I don't think there has been any discussion in this thread
on this particular issue : why Sahir chose Iqbal's second
poem to base his satirical lyrics, when the theme of that
poem has no bearing on India as a country or Indians in
general ? He could have chosen the first poem as well,
which is specific to India. Any thoughts on that ?
Afzal
Sudhir
who made Hindustan as her homeland (Babuji Mein Cheen Se Aayi,
Cheeni Jaisa Dil Laayi - somewhat doubtful)
and Arabs are (or should say were) the standard fixtures of Hindi Films.
Every hero worth a little salt, had put on a tradional Arab costume,
to disguise himself from the badies like Pran and Madan Puri. Sahir
wanted to highlight the tremendous contribution made by the Arabs
in advancing the story lines of Hindi Films.
Sudhir
p.s..: You forgot to ask, what threedots are
---------------------
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<c9nb9...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Vinay
got posted. It hasn't appeared even after considerable time. If you see this
message twice, please ignore any one.)
I am sorry to be a little vague there. Here's what I was trying to say:
Sahir says ki mil-jul ke ham is watan ko aisaa sajaae.Nge, ki hairat se
saaraa jahaa.N -- aur chiin-o-arab bhii -- hamaaraa mu.Nh takegaa.
In fact, I found this very enjoyable and brilliant turn of words. He has
apparently changed the whole mood of the song and still can use the same
words (chiin-o-arab hamaaraa), which just an antara ago were used in an
exactly opposite context. Also, this kind of usage is not a rarity in Urdu
poetry where a line or phrase justifies/relates-to two or more following
ones.
I think the hint lies in the line - "rahane ko ghar nahii.n hai, saaraa
jahaa.N hamaaraa". The issue that "rahane ko ghar nahii.n hai" is basically
the zist or at least the main point of the satirical part of the song. Now
this thought can be juxtaposed perfectly to a line like "saaraa jahaa.N
hamaaraa". There is no possible phrase or line in the first version
(tarana-e-Hind) which can give Sahir the opportunity to make this "ta.nj".
"saare jahaa.N se achchhaa hindostaa.N hamaaraa" does not provide him the
opportunity to be caustic about in this particular context of the movie
where the issue is homelessness.
May be I will post a detailed mail later. Meanwhile, can someone provide me
a Roman or Nagari version of tarana-e-milli? The Urdu scripted version can
be found on http://www.geocities.com/drmuhammadiqbal/84.htm page.
Thanks in advance.
Vinay
Afzal A. Khan
That is exactly how I understood your earlier post and
paraphrased it accordingly.
I don't know if a Roman version is available online. For
the time being, you will have to do with my trancription :
Cheen-o-'Arab hamaara, HindostaaN hamaara
Muslim haiN hum, watan hai saara jahaaN hamaara
Tauheed kee amaanat seenoN men hai hamaare
AasaaN naheeN miTaana naam-o-nishaaN hamaara
Duniya ke but~kadoN men pehla woh ghar KHuda ka
Hum us ke paas~baaN haiN, woh paas~baaN hamaara
TeGHoN ke saaye men hum pal kar jawaaN huwe haiN
KHaNjar hilaal ka hai qaumee nishaaN hamaara
MaGHrib kee waadiyoN men gooNjee azaaN hamaaree
Thamta na tha kisee se sail-e-rawaaN hamaara
Baatil se dabne waale ai aasmaaN naheeN hum
Sau baar kar chuka hai tu imtihaaN hamaara
Ai gulsitaan-e-And~lus, woh din haiN yaad tujh ko ?
Tha teree DaaliyoN men jab aashiyaaN hamaara
Ai mauj-e-Dajla tu bhee pehchaanti hai hum ko
Ab tak hai tera dariya afsaana~KHwaaN hamaara
Ai arz-e-paak teree hurmat pe kaT mare hum
Hai KHooN teree ragoN men ab tak rawaaN hamaara
Saalar-e-karwaaN hai Meer-e-Hijaaz apna
Is naam se hai baaqee aaraam-e-jaaN hamaara
Iqbal ka taraana baaNg-e-dara hai goya
Hota hai jaada(h)~paima phir karwaaN hamaara
Note : "Tauheed" - "TeGHoN" - "Thamta" - "Tha"
In each case, the first letter is a soft "t".
Since the words occur at the beginning of the
misra, I have typed the first "t" as Capital.
If any explanations are required, please let me know.
Afzal
Vijay Kumar
> ham ko accha nahiiN lagta koii ham-naam teraa
> koii tujh sa hi to phir naam bhii tujh sa rakkhe:-)
>
> F'raaz
Errata re: my own posting:-(
It is, of course, 'koii tujh sa "ho"...
And on a point of meter, the last word of first line is 'tiraa'.
Vijay Kumar
Vinay
> Vinay wrote:
<snipped>
> > Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> > > Vinay wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:<40BF3B9B...@privacy.net>...
Thanks very much for the transcription, Afzal Sb.
This also proves my suspicion that Sahir's "chiin-o-arab hamaaraa" was not a
parody of "tarana-e-milli" only. As you can see below, where the matalaa &
she'r #4 in Sahir's song remark on lines from tarana-e-milli, all other
references (she'r #2, 3, 6) are pointing to "tarana-e-hindi". So in fact 60%
of the times, it is the lines/phrases from "tarana-e-hindi" which are on the
receiving end :). Let's take each she'r one by one from Sahir's song and see
their original references.
1.
chiin\-o\-arab hamaaraa, hindostaa.N hamaaraa
rahane ko ghar nahii hai, saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
This she'r is a take on tarana-e-milli's matalaa:
chiin-o-arab hamaaraa, hindostaa.N hamaaraa
muslim hai.n ham, watan hai saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
2.
kholii bhii chhin gaI hai, benche.n bhii chhin gaI hai.n
sa.Dako.n pe ghuumataa hai ab kaaravaa.N hamaaraa
This one is his take on the following she'r from "saare jahaa.N se achchhaa"
(tarana-e-hindi):
ae aab-e-rud-e-ga.ngaa, vo din hai yaad tujhako
utaraa tere kinaare jab kaarawaa.N hamaaraa
3.
jebe.n hai.n apanii khaalii, kyo.n detaa varanaa gaalii
vo santarii hamaaraa, vo paasabaa.N hamaaraa
Again, from "saare jahaa.N se achchhaa" (SJSA):
parbat vo sab se uu.Nchaa hamasaayaa aasmaa.N kaa
vo santarii hamaaraa vo paasabaa.N hamaaraa
4.
jitanii bhii bilDi.nge.n thii.n, seTho.n ne baa.NT lii hai.n
fuTapaath bamba_ii ke hai.n aashiyaa.N hamaaraa
This one refers to tarana-e-milli's this sher:
Ai gulsitaan-e-And~lus, woh din haiN yaad tujh ko ?
Tha teree DaaliyoN men jab aashiyaaN hamaara
5.
sone ko ham kalandar, aate hai.n borii bandar
har ek qulii yahaa.N par hai raazadaa.N hamaaraa
This one seems to pointing to none in particular.
6.
tAliim hai adhuurii, milatii nahii majuurii
maaluum kyaa kisIko, dard\-e\-nihaa.N hamaaraa
From SJSA:
'Iqbal' ko_ii maharam apanaa nahii.n jahaa.N me.n
maaluum kyaa kisii ko dard-e-nihaa.N hamaaraa
7.
patalaa hai haal\-e\-apanaa, lekin lahuu hai gaa.Dhaa
phaulaad se banaa hai, har naujavaa.N hamaaraa
The tone of the poet changes here from sarcasm and despair to hope and
self-assurance. This she'r refers to none.
8.
mil\-jul ke is vatan ko, aisaa sajaaye.nge ham
hairat se mu.Nh takegaa saaraa jahaa.N hamaaraa
Same as #7, it refers to none.
On the whole I think that for the given situation, he decided to choose
whichever lines seemed fit to him for "attack", from both versions of
Iqbal's taraanaa. I don't think Sahir's sarcasm was angled towards Iqbal's
songs. If you see his takes, they are about issues (kholii bhii chhin ga_ii
hai/homelessness; jebe.n hai.n apanii khaalii/poverty; kyo.n detaa waranaa
gaalii/insecurity; seTho.n ne baa.Nt lii.n hai.n/homelessness; taaliim hai
adhuurii/illiteracy, milatii nahii.n majuurii/unemployment etc.) that none
of Iqbal's songs even talk (or boast) about. So, IMO, he is merely using the
immensely popular images of Iqbal's songs to create punch in his sarcasm
about other prevalent issues (related to the theme and situation of the
movie and also in general during those times). And what a wonderful job he
has done.
It would be great to see other opinions on this.
Vinay
>
>
>
> Afzal
V S Rawat
I like daiyyaa re daiyya a lot.
It is such a catchy phrase. And Asha kept a low profile in
rendering the song. The language/ dialect is from my native
place.
MINI QUIZ:
How many songs are there with "daiyya" or its variations.
(anywhere in the song).
1. daiyya re daiyya re cha.Dh gayo paapii bichhuu_aa (madhumati)
2.
....
-Rawat
Afzal A. Khan
I have deleted passages from earlier posts.
I am inclined to agree with your conclusion that Sahir
did not really intend to spoof Iqbal or parody two of his
best-known compositions. He merely picked upon a couple
of lines/passages and some expressions/images from the
two poems, purely to highlight his own ideas and to amplify
the impact. Iqbal's lines/expressions only made a convenient
peg on which he could hang his own lyrics.
In your rendition of Sahir's lyrics, I would like to make
a few amendments. (Note : These are NOT iTrans-related !) :
kalandar = qalaNdar
patla hai haal apna {It is not "haal-e-apna"}
phaulaad = Faulaad
In the sixth sher, "majoori" is used in place of "mazdoori".
This may be excusable as a demand of the meter. But it
contrasts very badly with the Farsi/Urdu expression
"dard-e-nihaaN" in the second misra.
Afzal
Sudhir
is also known as Victoria Station. It is a huge complex. Trains
run by Western Railway start from this station.
Sudhir
-------------------
"Vinay" <v...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >
>
> 5.
> sone ko ham kalandar, aate hai.n borii bandar
> har ek qulii yahaa.N par hai raazadaa.N hamaaraa
>
> This one seems to pointing to none in particular.
>
>
> Vinay
Ket...@att.net
>is also known as Victoria Station. It is a huge complex. Trains
>run by Western Railway start from this station.
Although your statement above has nothing to do with Vinay's statement below, I
can't help but nit-pick. Bori Bundar, or Victoria Terminus(VT) now known (like
everything else in Thackeray land) as Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus(CST) is run
by the Central Railway, not Western, whose headquarters are at Churchgate.
Ketan
UVR
> In article <e32c7906.04060...@posting.google.com>, Sudhir says...
>
>>Bori Bander (Para 5) is the Main Train Station in Bombay and
>>is also known as Victoria Station. It is a huge complex. Trains
>>run by Western Railway start from this station.
>
>
> Although your statement above has nothing to do with Vinay's statement below, I
> can't help but nit-pick. Bori Bundar, or Victoria Terminus(VT) now known (like
> everything else in Thackeray land) as Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus(CST) is run
> by the Central Railway, not Western, whose headquarters are at Churchgate.
>
>
> Ketan
HA! The oo.NT has himself come under the pahaa.D! :)
Why is your discussion more relevant to RMIM, Ketan, than, say,
whether it should be 'hai' or 'hai.n' in 'zindagii ke safar me.n
guzar jaate <?> jo maqaam'? :P
Just kidding. Don't bother answering.
-UVR.
Ket...@att.net
>of Iqbal's songs even talk (or boast) about. So, IMO, he is merely using the
>immensely popular images of Iqbal's songs to create punch in his sarcasm
>about other prevalent issues (related to the theme and situation of the
>movie and also in general during those times). And what a wonderful job he
>has done.
Speaking of punch, is there any singer who has adequately conveyed sarcasm AND
disgust in HFM? I am keeping both those categories separate, since in
"Chin-0-arab" I am not sure what emotion Mukesh is supposed to convey. I thought
it was sarcasm but after reading all these posts, if it is disgust he is
supposed to convey, then he fails to do a good job.
Ketan
Afzal A. Khan
Ket...@att.net wrote:
>
> In article <e32c7906.04060...@posting.google.com>, Sudhir says...
> >
> >Bori Bander (Para 5) is the Main Train Station in Bombay and
> >is also known as Victoria Station. It is a huge complex. Trains
> >run by Western Railway start from this station.
>
> Although your statement above has nothing to do with Vinay's statement below, I
> can't help but nit-pick. Bori Bundar, or Victoria Terminus(VT) now known (like
> everything else in Thackeray land) as Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus(CST) is run
> by the Central Railway, not Western, whose headquarters are at Churchgate.
>
> Ketan
>
> >Sudhir
This is certainly not nit-picking. Shri Sudhir shouldn't
have posted such misleading info. Some of his posts are
rather cryptic though, so it is possible that even this post
had something of a "hidden message" !
BTW, things have become much worse than in Sahir's days.
If a newcomer/migrant comes to Bombay, he just can't hope to
have a quiet spot on Bombay's pavements to spend his nights.
Either he has to fork out a hefty hafta or face serious
physical injuries, even death.
One aspect where things may have improved is the lot of the
once "poor" VT coolies. Most of them these days earn far
more than an average clerk in a commmercial firm. I am sure
many of us paying periodical visits to India through
Bombay can vouch for this. Oops, I should have said "Mumbai".
Afzal
Vinay
<snipped>
> a few amendments. (Note : These are NOT iTrans-related !) :
>
> kalandar = qalaNdar
>
> patla hai haal apna {It is not "haal-e-apna"}
>
> phaulaad = Faulaad
Copy-and-paste-tradeoffs. Thannks for correcting.
>
> In the sixth sher, "majoori" is used in place of "mazdoori".
> This may be excusable as a demand of the meter. But it
> contrasts very badly with the Farsi/Urdu expression
> "dard-e-nihaaN" in the second misra.
>
Not if you stop to think that it is after all a *parody*. Sahir, or
more correctly the character singing the song, is quoting Iqbal
verbatim here. Though in normal Urdu poetry, this kind of usage is a
clear mismatch, Sahir has many things going on in his defense of such
usage here. One, it's a film song; two, it's coming out of a "aam"
character in an "informal" situation; and three, it's a parody.
On an intresting note, see the character's "own" words through out the
song:
rahane ko ghar nahii hai,
kholii bhii chhin gaI hai,
benche.n bhii chhin gaI hai.n
sa.Dako.n pe ghuumataa hai
jebe.n hai.n apanii khaalii,
kyo.n detaa varanaa gaalii
jitanii bhii bilDi.nge.n thii.n,
seTho.n ne baa.NT lii hai.n
fuTapaath bamba_ii ke
sone ko ham qalandar,
aate hai.n borii bandar
har ek qulii yahaa.N par
hai raazadaa.N hamaaraa
tAliim hai adhuurii,
milatii nahii majuurii
patalaa hai haal apanaa,
lekin lahuu hai gaa.Dhaa
faulaad se banaa hai
mil-jul ke is vatan ko,
aisaa sajaaye.nge ham
hairat se mu.Nh takegaa
It's hard to find even one word among these that does not suit the
character. The only word that I feel is a little (only a little) odd
is "raazadaa.N". And I have this feeling that even in this she'r he
is refering to some other famous poem.
To me, this is another example of Sahir's brilliant lyrics writing.
First and foremost he is faithful to the character, the situation and
the movie. That's what a lyricist's primary job is. That he can make
his lyrics generic as well is his greatness.
Vinay
> Afzal
Surjit Singh
Sudhir wrote:
> Bori Bander (Para 5) is the Main Train Station in Bombay and
> is also known as Victoria Station. It is a huge complex. Trains
> run by Western Railway start from this station.
Now called Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus. Let a modern Sahir work that
into lyrics!
>
> Sudhir
>
> -------------------
>
> "Vinay" <v...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >
>
>>5.
>>sone ko ham kalandar, aate hai.n borii bandar
>>har ek qulii yahaa.N par hai raazadaa.N hamaaraa
>>
>>This one seems to pointing to none in particular.
>>
>>
>>Vinay
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html
Surjit Singh
> Ket...@att.net wrote:
>
>> In article <e32c7906.04060...@posting.google.com>, Sudhir
>> says...
>>
>>> Bori Bander (Para 5) is the Main Train Station in Bombay and
>>> is also known as Victoria Station. It is a huge complex. Trains
>>> run by Western Railway start from this station.
>>
>>
>>
>> Although your statement above has nothing to do with Vinay's statement
>> below, I
>> can't help but nit-pick. Bori Bundar, or Victoria Terminus(VT) now
>> known (like
>> everything else in Thackeray land) as Chhatrapati Shivaji
>> Terminus(CST) is run
>> by the Central Railway, not Western, whose headquarters are at
>> Churchgate.
>>
>>
>> Ketan
>
>
> HA! The oo.NT has himself come under the pahaa.D! :)
You didn't have to wait long either!
>
> Why is your discussion more relevant to RMIM, Ketan, than, say,
> whether it should be 'hai' or 'hai.n' in 'zindagii ke safar me.n
> guzar jaate <?> jo maqaam'? :P
>
> Just kidding. Don't bother answering.
>
> -UVR.
--
Birbal
> >
<<snipped>>
>
>
>
>
> I have deleted passages from earlier posts.
>
> I am inclined to agree with your conclusion that Sahir
> did not really intend to spoof Iqbal or parody two of his
> best-known compositions. He merely picked upon a couple
> of lines/passages and some expressions/images from the
> two poems, purely to highlight his own ideas and to amplify
> the impact. Iqbal's lines/expressions only made a convenient
> peg on which he could hang his own lyrics.
>
> In your rendition of Sahir's lyrics, I would like to make
> a few amendments. (Note : These are NOT iTrans-related !) :
>
> kalandar = qalaNdar
>
> patla hai haal apna {It is not "haal-e-apna"}
>
> phaulaad = Faulaad
>
> In the sixth sher, "majoori" is used in place of "mazdoori".
> This may be excusable as a demand of the meter. But it
> contrasts very badly with the Farsi/Urdu expression
> "dard-e-nihaaN" in the second misra.
>
Do you think this might be a deliberate thing? May be Sahir has used a
Marathi word here (as the situation pertains to Mumbai) and the word
in Marathi *IS* majoori. Note that he has also used a more Marathi
version "kholi" rather than Qamraa.
>
> Afzal
Afzal A. Khan
You could have a point, considering what I had written
earlier about Mala Sinha's attire in the movie !
But, seriously, I don't think so. The film's story may
have taken place in Bombay but the film itself and its
message was meant for a much wider market/audience.
"Kholi" is used in ordinary Urdu too, to describe a small
structure where the poor folks may be living. I am not
sure but, possibly, "kholi" is used as "one part of a
bigger whole" --- like a part of the "chawls" that still
abound in Bombay. The more likely explanation is that
it was merely a demand of the meter. And "majoori" is not
merely Marathi, but is used quite often by uneducated folks
all over Central and North India.
BTW, it is "kamra", not "qamra".
Afzal
Ket...@att.net
>>> Although your statement above has nothing to do with Vinay's statement
>>> below, I
>>> can't help but nit-pick. Bori Bundar, or Victoria Terminus(VT) now
>>> known (like
>>> everything else in Thackeray land) as Chhatrapati Shivaji
>>> Terminus(CST) is run
>>> by the Central Railway, not Western, whose headquarters are at
>>> Churchgate.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ketan
>>
>>
>> HA! The oo.NT has himself come under the pahaa.D! :)
>
>You didn't have to wait long either!
No, about as long as it takes for people to make fat-headed comments like the
ones made by both of you.
>> Why is your discussion more relevant to RMIM, Ketan, than, say,
>> whether it should be 'hai' or 'hai.n' in 'zindagii ke safar me.n
>> guzar jaate <?> jo maqaam'? :P
>>
>> Just kidding. Don't bother answering.
And why not? A) I had clearly mentioned that I was nit-picking which is very
different from what goes on in the hai/hai.n thread for days/nights endlessly. I
wasn't going to go into endless debates on here about it. It was a one-time
post, but given your intelligence levels, I am not surprised the difference is
lost on both of you. B) If nit-picking were to be banned, both of you--UVR in
the past and Surjitji currently --might have very little to post on here. :)
Ketan
Abhay Jain
<Ket...@att.net> wrote in message news:c9pvq...@drn.newsguy.com...
How about Rafi in "Jinhe Naaz Hai Hind Par" in Pyasa.
Abhay Jain
>
> Ketan
>
Sudhir
the whose baby is the Bombay Central (BC) Station
I have no currrent plans to visist Mumbai Nagariya, but littlle bit
knowledge about geography is always helpful.
Incidentally, the famous Chor Bazaar is not too far away from
the above landmark.
Sudhir
----------------------
Ket...@att.net wrote in message news:<c9pug...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Afzal A. Khan
Sudhir wrote:
>
> If VT, aka: CST, was aka: BB iss under Central Railway ( CT) ,
> the whose baby is the Bombay Central (BC) Station
>
> I have no currrent plans to visist Mumbai Nagariya, but littlle bit
> knowledge about geography is always helpful.
>
> Incidentally, the famous Chor Bazaar is not too far away from
> the above landmark.
>
> Sudhir
Bombay Central too is part of the Western Railway network.
Afzal
Abhay Phadnis
news:e64647f9.04060...@posting.google.com...(snip)
> > In the sixth sher, "majoori" is used in place of "mazdoori".
> > This may be excusable as a demand of the meter. But it
> > contrasts very badly with the Farsi/Urdu expression
> > "dard-e-nihaaN" in the second misra.
> >
>
> Do you think this might be a deliberate thing? May be Sahir has used a
> Marathi word here (as the situation pertains to Mumbai) and the word
> in Marathi *IS* majoori.
Not quite true - while it would be written as "majuurii", the pronunciation
is Marathi would actually be closer to "mazuurii" (the 'j' pronounced as in
words like "jawaL" {close} and 'jaa' {go}). IIRC, the word in the song in
question has the 'j' pronounced as in the English "job".
Warm regards,
Abhay
V S Rawat
> This is certainly not nit-picking. Shri Sudhir shouldn't
> have posted such misleading info. Some of his posts
> are rather cryptic though, so it is possible that even
> this post had something of a "hidden message" !
Indeed. And he creates a lot of hue and cry if errors on his
posts are pointed out.
Ketan deserves a bravery award for nitpicking on Sudhir.
> BTW, things have become much worse than in Sahir's days.
> If a newcomer/migrant comes to Bombay, he just can't hope
> to have a quiet spot on Bombay's pavements to spend his
> nights. Either he has to fork out a hefty hafta or face
> serious physical injuries, even death.
How come? Salman Khan was not driving those days?
> One aspect where things may have improved is the lot of
> the once "poor" VT coolies. Most of them these days earn
> far more than an average clerk in a commmercial firm. I
> am sure many of us paying periodical visits to India
> through Bombay can vouch for this. Oops, I should have
> said "Mumbai".
bringing it back to RMIM,
1. on which station songs of amitabh's coolie were shot?
2. How many songs have been shot on VT or churchgate plateforms?
-Rawat
V S Rawat
I agree with Kitan on this point. When a factually wrong
thing got mentioned inadvertently, a post correcting that
single thing is very much required, otherwise several people
accessing RMIM might carry a wrong information.
compared to ketan's minimal correction, if the duo were to
reply,
professor would have written:
"Sudhir just authorised transfer of VT from central to
western railways."
UVR would have interjected:
"ROTFL".
-Rawat
Afzal A. Khan
V S Rawat wrote:
>
> Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> > This is certainly not nit-picking. Shri Sudhir shouldn't
> > have posted such misleading info. Some of his posts
> > are rather cryptic though, so it is possible that even
> > this post had something of a "hidden message" !
>
> Indeed. And he creates a lot of hue and cry if errors on his
> posts are pointed out.
>
> Ketan deserves a bravery award for nitpicking on Sudhir.
> bringing it back to RMIM,
>
> 1. on which station songs of amitabh's coolie were shot?
>
> 2. How many songs have been shot on VT or churchgate plateforms?
>
> -Rawat
A small nit-pick --- it is "platform" !
I think there should be a separate thread on this point.
BTW, I recall a very poignant climax scene from the film
"Gaman" that was picturised at the VT Station. There is
a song playing in the background "aap kee yaad aatee rahee",
with a young Farooq Shaikh looking sadly at a departing
train.
Also, Churchgate is not like VT. It is a terminus only for
local trains, while VT caters to both -- local and long
distance.
Afzal
Sudhir
Watch out.
I am coming to Mumbai Nagaria from Delhi by
Frontier Mail (is faster than Toofan Mail) or
Rajdhani Express
So where do I land up : CST / VT / BB or BC ?
Needless to say, the idea is to visit: Chor Bazaar. I may not find
Miss Cheekoo (Sumitra Devi), but Mr. Jayaraman would certainly
be around some 78 rpms heap.
Sudhir
---------------------
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<40C15885...@privacy.net>...
Afzal A. Khan
Sudhir wrote:
>
> Afzal Saheb:
>
> Watch out.
>
> I am coming to Mumbai Nagaria from Delhi by
>
> Frontier Mail (is faster than Toofan Mail) or
>
> Rajdhani Express
>
> So where do I land up : CST / VT / BB or BC ?
>
> Needless to say, the idea is to visit: Chor Bazaar. I may not find
> Miss Cheekoo (Sumitra Devi), but Mr. Jayaraman would certainly
> be around some 78 rpms heap.
>
> Sudhir
Leave it to the train driver -- he knows best !
And I hope you would do a search on Shri J. to pinpoint
the post/s where he has mentioned his phone number.
Afzal
Sudhir
Will try make JR a fixture at Chor Bazaar, just like Fire Hydrants
Sudhir
-------------
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<40C228B9...@privacy.net>...