Lifting Tunes
Sreenivas Paruchuri
> the MD of the remade film gets the credit by convention. I agree that it
> is unfair to the original MD and that the second MD gets more credit than
> he deserves. But, avoid using irresponsible words like "lifted". It
> connotes theft and sneakiness. In the dub/remake context, such an
> occurrence does not imply theft of intellectual property or even something
This topic has been bothering me since some time. I should also admit that
I myself did use the word "lifting" before, which as above said sounds
irresponsible. Certainly there are many occasions where tunes were verbatim
copied from other music directors, though they were neither remakes nor
dubbings. In such cases there were legal battles as well. One famous example
is the mega hit song "Eruvaaka saagaarOy" in Telugu from "rOjulu maaraayi"
(1955, in Tamil: kaalam maripochi).
As Rajan Parrikar once wrote on RMIM (not verbatim!) at regular
intervals people come on RMIM and say that yesterday while listening
to Mozart's 41st Symphony I "discovered" that our MD had copied it, and/or
most of popular music is copied from west etc. etc. This is one more
issue that often appears on RMIM. Yes, on some occasions certain
European classical compositions were used in Indian films, like:
Mozart's 41st Symphony, Beethoven's 5th and 9th (from 9th one movement),
Johann Strauss's "Fledermaus" (meaning Bat. Sorry, I don't know the English
title of his work.), "Also sparch Zarathustra", Tshaikowsky's "Schwannsee"
and taking non-classical compositions, works from Sergio Morricone (famous
through the "spaghetti westerns", from Hollywood films like "Blood and Sand",
"Sound of Music" etc. etc. In most of such cases many music directors have
acknowledged that too. They were n't playing the whole compositions but only
very small bits. Don't you hear Sitar and Tabla in Hollywood films?
But claiming that the Indian film MDs were "copy cats" is unfair IMHO. Say
that, its partly based on such and such composition, if you don't know the
exact story behind the song.
Recently during a bus ride I heard an instrumental piece (On Accordian) in
local Radio and wondered how could the MD copy a song from the German folk
music scene (It was a programme exclusively presenting "Deustche
Volksmusik"). The song goes in Hindi like " .. kabhi albida na kehna ..". Did
the MD really have access to "ALL" kinds of music in the world? Someone
ironically said (was it on RMIM?) once that the greatness of S-J duo is that
they have introduced all kinds of music to the Indian audience. IMO Lifting
a tune is one thing, and adopting it to the conditions is an another...
To give another example, when I heard my neighbour playing Strauss's
"Fledermaus" (that was the 1st time I heard to this.) I rushed out of the
room wondering how he got an Indian film tune. After repeated humming
I recalled that it was used in "malleeSwari" (for many the best
ever musical film ever made in Telugu, including myself.). Let me also add
that most of the 20+ songs in that film are composed in Carnatic classical
raaga-s. And this film is considered be a jewel in Saluri's crown.
Adopting the western trends had been happening since the early ages of Indian
Talkie. Apparently its Pankaj Mullick in Bengali/Hindi (Film: mukti?)
and S.Rajeswararao (who was influenced by Mullick, and Boral in his early
years, Film: illaalu 1940) in south were the first to introduce the western
elements in the orchestras and tunes respectively.
Here I quote film songs which were apparently based (or copied?) on tunes
from other countries. Pl. note that these are only a few examples and the
list 'd be long.
Suraiya once wrote that Jaikishan borrowed an Egyptian 78rpm disc, and to her
utter surprise the song from "awara": tere bina aag ye chandani, was totally
based on that Egyptian song, and she never got back her disc. I don't know
how true it is.
Similarly "anna" Chitalkar was well known for his love for Caribbean
Calypsos, and Samba music. Here are a few examples from different MDs:
Mera Naam Chin Chan Choo from Howrah Bridge based on Edmundo Ros's "The
laughing Samba" (MD: OP nayyar, Source: "The laughing Samba, Edmundo Ros
(Vocal), Columbia Record)
Gore Gore O Banke Chore from Samadhi based on "chico chico o portorico" (MD:
"anna", Source: Chico Chico O Portorico, Film: Come Back to Me, Ros & Co,
Columbia Record)
Also I heard from Mr. Chandvankar of SIRC, Bombay that one song from Marathi
"gharkul" (for which "anna" got award) was based on Papa loves mama, sung by
Donald Peers and Janet Osborne, Columbia EP.
The FAMOUS song in Telugu/Tamil Mayabazar ('57)"vivaaha bhOjanambu" is based
on Ros's song from the film Mexican Merry Go around. Well there was a film
way back in 1936 with the title:
SaSirEkhaa pariNayam (aka maayaabazaar), and the lyrics are VERY similar to
the '57 version.
The famous "Binaka Geetmala" signature tune was based on Ros's "Spanish
Gypsy Dance"-Paso Doble, "Rhythms of the south", Decca LP (SKL 4036,
Germany)
Lata's song (Kalyanji-Anandji) "Baje payal cham cham hoke bekarar" from
"Chaliya" "ye chanda ruska na ye japanka" from "Son of India" (Naushad),
and "Rahen na rahen" from "mamta" (Roshan) were based on tracks from
Ron Goodwin's album "Music for an Arabian night", Parlophone LP PMC 1109
Hemant Kumar's "lehraon pe lehar" from "Chabili", "Dil dilse milakar dekho"
from "memsaab" (Madan Mohan) are also such examples.
The Hemant Kumar song is an Italian tune (L.P: Neapolitan Mandolin by
Guaglione), the song from Memsaab is another of innumerable Edmundo Ros's
tunes in Indian languages (here it is a Decca L.P (Germany): Rhythms of the
south, song: Isle of Capri-Cha Cha Cha).
VAK rangarao (I hope this man with the largest 78rpm collection in India, and
a regular reviewer on Screen, IE needs no introduction.) disagreed with an
author's comments that certain songs from Telugu/Tamil mega hits
"paataaLa bhairavi" and "Maayabazaar" were copied from popular songs like
"aawaz de kaha hai", "tu mera chand", "apalam chapalam". He insists that one
should explain before how those esp. Punjabi elements were brought in to
south Indian scene. Many a times the tunes/songs were so well adopted that
one rarely notices it either as a translation, or as an imitation.
The unfortunate part is that the articles on old films in magazines (here I
can extensively quote recent articles in Telugu news papers, magazines)
in recent years provide wrong information thus misleading. One author
says that so and so film/song is dubbed from Tamil, and the other one
says that its other way round (I am talking about the 1962 film Tamil: Police
Karan Magal (Dir: Sridhar), Telugu: Konstable kooturu (Dir: chaaNakya).
A close look at the production house, and the year of release would have
solved the problem very easily. What can be done to avoid such wrong info.?
So, to summarise I can only humbly request all those not to jump and come
to quick conclusions esp. while talking about "copied tunes" within Indian
films.
Regards,
Sreenivas
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
(Sreenivas Paruchuri) writes:
> This topic has been bothering me since some time. I should also
> admit that I myself did use the word "lifting" before, which as
> above said sounds irresponsible. Certainly there are many occasions
> where tunes were verbatim copied from other music directors, though
> they were neither remakes nor dubbings. In such cases there were
> legal battles as well. One famous example is the mega hit song
> "Eruvaaka saagaarOy" in Telugu from "rOjulu maaraayi" (1955, in
> Tamil: kaalam maripochi).
> As Rajan Parrikar once wrote on RMIM (not verbatim!) at regular
> intervals people come on RMIM and say that yesterday while listening
> to Mozart's 41st Symphony I "discovered" that our MD had copied it,
> and/or most of popular music is copied from west etc. etc. This is
> one more issue that often appears on RMIM. Yes, on some occasions
> certain European classical compositions were used in Indian films,
> like:
<Rest of VERY informative article snipped>
I would beg to disagree on a few points. While it certainly is true
that a lot of the great oldies (both songs and MDs) have been inspired
by western melodies, the fine line of distinction is whether they also
claim the credit for it. To quote an example, Salil Choudhury openly
stated that 'because he liked Mozart's 41st so much he *wanted* to use
it for a song'. Anand-Milind, on the other hand, would not say 'yes,
we love Ilayaraja's tune and so we used it'.
Classic example of `plagiarization' ---
The players: Laxmikant-Pyarelal and Bappi Lahiri
The Films: Hum and Thaanedar
The Songs: 'jooma chumma de de' and 'tamma tamma loge'
The Claim: It is OUR tune!
till some kind soul pointed out that it is in fact Mori
Kante's 'tama tama loge' and 'yeke yeke' fused into one.
Now here we have people fighting over 'who stole it first!'
Plagiarization (or lifting tunes) is when we have EIGHT versions of
'muqqaala muqabla' in Hindi in eight DIFFERENT films. Or we had five
songs based on Khaled's 'Didi' four years ago.
Also, folk tunes and classical compositions are typically exempt from
'lifting' --- they are MEANT to be reused (number of songs based on
each raag, for instance). One wouldn't say Kalyanji-Anandji 'lifted'
'mere angne meiN' or Shiv-Hari 'stole' 'morni baagaaN ma bole'. But
yes, Bappi Lahiri 'lifted' 'Walk like an Egyptian' to make 'chori
chori'. I wouldn't say Viju Shah 'stole' 'Rhythm's gonna get you', he
always openly admitted that he wanted to use Gloria Estefan's 'oye
oye' chorus --- that counts as 'inspired' in my opinion.
I'd say that 'stealing' a tune as opposed to 'adopting' one depends a
lot on
1. whether it is done out of admiration for a particular work
by another artist (as opposed to cashing in on its mass
appeal and/or current popularity)
2. whether you give due credit to the original composer or
keep mum and hog it yourself
3. whether the original tune is 'public domain' material
(classical, folk music etc)
4. whether you have a cleaner track record. If almost every
other song you come up with is not your original work,
you'd be branded as a 'tune chor' a la Bappi Lahiri. OTOH
if you have a bunch of your own classics in your belt and
then you come up with a non-original song once in a while,
it is condonable.
Of course, all of these are extremely subjective criteria and are only
mine. One may actually find loopholes/inconsistencies in my arguments.
However, those are my guidelines of where to draw the line... I'd
respect your opinions even if they differ from them.
Ciao,
ND
\________Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu________/
Office: ISIP, Mississippi State University, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road,
Mississippi State MS 39762 Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2689
\___http://vlsi.bu.edu/~neeraj___________Disc Space - The Final Frontier...___/
Kuntal M Daftary
much of a misfit that it seems that they are in the music of that song just
becos the MD likes that tune very much!!
for instance, take the song:
taaron men sajake apane sooraj se, dekho dharatI chalI milane
from the movie "jal bin machhli, nritya bin bijli"
in this song, somewhere between stanzas, suddenly out of the blue u hear the
signature tune of "the good the bad the ugly" and it hurts... does not match at
all (at least if u have heard the tune b4)...
i dont know why did the MD (LP again, i think) "shoved" this piece of music in
this song...
and on the other end take the song:
sochanaa kyaa, jo bhi hoga dekhaa jayegaa...
a sidhdhaa uthaao from raspatin and yet it sounds as if made for the lyrics!!
--
Kuntal M. Daftary http://yake.ecn.purdue.edu/~daftary
_____________________________________________________________________
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Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
<daf...@ecn.purdue.edu> writes:
> and on the other end take the song:
> sochanaa kyaa, jo bhi hoga dekhaa jayegaa...
> a sidhdhaa uthaao from raspatin and yet it sounds as if made for the
> lyrics!!
:-) That happens when you have the tune first and then write
the lyrics to it. So it is the lyrics made for the tune...
BTW the original tune of the song is not Rasputin by Boney M
but Lambada which was oh-so-popular a few years back... There is only
a slight similarity with Rasputin, maybe, if you want to look for
it...
Kuntal M Daftary
>and on the other end take the song:
>
> sochanaa kyaa, jo bhi hoga dekhaa jayegaa...
>
>a sidhdhaa uthaao from raspatin and yet it sounds as if made for the lyrics!!
sorry! guys, this is a uthao from lambada and not rasputin as i wrote
earlier... b4 anyone gets away with correcting me!! :))
Suhas Deshpande
: > When a tune from the original film is used in a remake/dub, it appears
: > the MD of the remade film gets the credit by convention. I agree that it
: > is unfair to the original MD and that the second MD gets more credit than
: > he deserves. But, avoid using irresponsible words like "lifted". It
: > connotes theft and sneakiness. In the dub/remake context, such an
: > occurrence does not imply theft of intellectual property or even something
SNIP SNIP
: Lata's song (Kalyanji-Anandji) "Baje payal cham cham hoke bekarar" from
: "Chaliya" "ye chanda ruska na ye japanka" from "Son of India" (Naushad),
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
******Should be Insan Jag Utha MD S D Burman
: and "Rahen na rahen" from "mamta" (Roshan) were based on tracks from
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
[...stuff deleted...]
Thanks for the nice post, Sreenivas. I had some thoughts to add, but
since Neeraj has already covered most of them in his follow-up, I'll not repeat
them.
>Lata's song (Kalyanji-Anandji) "Baje payal cham cham hoke bekarar" from
>"Chaliya" "ye chanda ruska na ye japanka" from "Son of India" (Naushad),
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think "Ye chanda Roos ka, na ye Jaapaan ka..." is a Naushad song. I rem.
Vish telling me that it's from an SDB movie, perhaps Jaag Utha Insaan. Not sure,
about the name of the movie, but it's not a Naushad film.
>and "Rahen na rahen" from "mamta" (Roshan) were based on tracks from
>Ron Goodwin's album "Music for an Arabian night", Parlophone LP PMC 1109
Someone had mentioned Shanky-J's "Bin dekhe aur bin pehchaane tum par
hum qurbaan...." which is also a pick from the above album.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>Sreenivas
********************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
MuskurahaT si khili rehti hai aankhon me kahin
Aur palkon pe ujaale se chhupe rehte hain
HonT kuchh kehte nahin, kaampte honTon pe magar
Kitne KHaamosh se afsaane ruke rehte hain
Gulzar in "Humne dekhi hai un aankhon ke mehakti KHushbo..."
********************************************************************************
Vinaya
>>
>> sochanaa kyaa, jo bhi hoga dekhaa jayegaa...
>>
>>a sidhdhaa uthaao from raspatin and yet it sounds as if made for the lyrics!!
>
> sorry! guys, this is a uthao from lambada and not rasputin as i wrote
>earlier... b4 anyone gets away with correcting me!! :))
The song
'Sacchi yeh kahani hai, sunlo meri jaan,
Kahin ek shahar mein, tha ek naujawaan'
from 'Kabhi haan kabhi na'
sounds like it has it's starting lines picked up from Rasputin.
Shailesh Phansalkar
and the famous 'itanaa naa mujhase tu pyaar badhaa' was lifted by
salil chowdhary from Mozarts 40th.
there is a hindi song in a new film, lifted from Khaleed's 'Didi' and
i remember a song from 'insaaf' (*ing dimple and vinod khanna), it goes
something like this......
"tu hain, main hun, aur raat hai, kyaa baat hai"
" baichainiyaan, betaabiyaan, aaj to husna ke ishqa bhi saath hai"
this was lifted from beethoven's fifth (or seventh??)
not just tunes, even films on a whole were lifted, many a times....
Dev Saahab's 'Manpasand' was a poor rendition of 'My fair Lady'
(or pygmalion, whatever). it had a song sung by lata....
"pankha binaa oodoo, roke binaa rookoo"
"khushi mili aise"
"hoton pe geet jaagen, man kahi door bhaage"
"khushi mili aise"
this was lifted as it is from a song from 'My fair lady' originally
rendered by Julia Andrews.
and now the hindi film enthusiasts might have got bored of the famous
"Come September" tune (*ing Rock Hudson and Gina Lollobrigida)
used by Anu Malik in 'Baazi' (Aamir Khan singing as a female dancer) and
bye Anand Milind for 'Raajaa' ('najaren mili, dil dhadaka, meri dhadakan ne
kahan, luv u raja.....)
then the famous "Good Bad Ugly" tune was used as chorus in the song sung by
Mukesh...
"taaron mein sajake, apane suraj se,"
"dekho dharati, chali, milane".
I think it was LP (or was it KA??)
there are so many examples....
- shailesh.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was an atheist, until I discovered, I was GOD.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
<big list of examples deleted>
> there are so many examples....
Please look at my earlier post on this thread --- there is a
fine line between 'lifting' or 'plagiarization' and 'inspiration' or
'adaptation', and if every inspiration and adaptation was a lift we
would not have more than 80% of the works.
Also remember that adaptation is the only good way you can
transcend art forms in one culture into another...
Ashok
>
> and the famous 'itanaa naa mujhase tu pyaar badhaa' was lifted by
> salil chowdhary from Mozarts 40th.
>
>
I can't help wondering sometimes if people actually read the thread they
are responding to! For example, this masterpiece of a posting,
announcing a major discovery of late 20th century by its author, would
not have transpired if the author had just glanced over a couple of earlier
articles in the thread, which appeared just a few sunsets ago.
As this thread got started with Sreenivas Paruchuri's serious attempt to
raise the level of discussion of the topic on RMIM, let me try some
exhorting. Folks, if you want your postings to be taken seriously,
follow the thread and make yourselves familiar with the context.
Here's a passage from Sreenivas P.'s posting, which started this thread.
>
As Rajan Parrikar once wrote on RMIM (not verbatim!) at regular
intervals people come on RMIM and say that yesterday while listening
to Mozart's 41st Symphony I "discovered" that our MD had copied it, and/or
most of popular music is copied from west etc. etc. This is one more
issue that often appears on RMIM. Yes, on some occasions certain
European classical compositions were used in Indian films, like:
Mozart's 41st Symphony, Beethoven's 5th and 9th (from 9th one movement),
Johann Strauss's "Fledermaus" (meaning Bat. Sorry, I don't know the English
title of his work.), "Also sparch Zarathustra", Tshaikowsky's "Schwannsee"
and taking non-classical compositions, works from Sergio Morricone (famous
through the "spaghetti westerns", from Hollywood films like "Blood and Sand",
"Sound of Music" etc. etc. In most of such cases many music directors have
acknowledged that too. They were n't playing the whole compositions but only
very small bits. Don't you hear Sitar and Tabla in Hollywood films?
But claiming that the Indian film MDs were "copy cats" is unfair IMHO. Say
that, its partly based on such and such composition, if you don't know the
exact story behind the song.
>
And this from a follow-up by Neeraj Deshmukh.
>
I would beg to disagree on a few points. While it certainly is true
that a lot of the great oldies (both songs and MDs) have been inspired
by western melodies, the fine line of distinction is whether they also
claim the credit for it. To quote an example, Salil Choudhury openly
stated that 'because he liked Mozart's 41st so much he *wanted* to use
it for a song'. Anand-Milind, on the other hand, would not say 'yes,
we love Ilayaraja's tune and so we used it'.
>
Ashok
Azra Bano
References: <4a954q$j...@news.uni-paderborn.de> <4akl52$a...@athos.cc.bellcore.com>
There's a song in the movie "Shart", *ing Naseeruddin Shah, Shabana Azmi,
and Kanwaljeet, which goes something like "Tera mera mera tera tera mera
yaaraana, kya kehna, kya kehna.." It's picturised on all three of them,
singing onstage...I was told it's a straight lift from a song by Boy
George, something chameleon, chameleon..I'd like to know who the MD for
Shart' was, and which song exactly did they/he copy?
And the Beatles song they lifted for the Shammi Kapoor-Rajshree movie,
Jaanwar, "I wanna hold your hand.." wasn't it? That one really killed me,
they shouldn't have touched the Beatles.. I don't remember what the
Hindi version was, it was eminently forgettable anyway, imho..Rajshree in a
blonde wig too...makes you plead for mercy..:)
................................................................
Mera azm itna bulund hai, mujhe paraaye sholoN ka dar nahiN
Mujhe khauf aatish-e-gul se hai, ye kahiN chaman ko jalaa na de
................................................................
azra
--
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
(Azra Bano) writes:
> There's a song in the movie "Shart", *ing Naseeruddin Shah, Shabana
> Azmi, and Kanwaljeet, which goes something like "Tera mera mera tera
> tera mera yaaraana, kya kehna, kya kehna.." It's picturised on all
> three of them, singing onstage...I was told it's a straight lift
> from a song by Boy George, something chameleon, chameleon..I'd like
> to know who the MD for Shart' was, and which song exactly did
> they/he copy?
The song is 'Karma Chameleon'... Don't recall the MD.
> And the Beatles song they lifted for the Shammi Kapoor-Rajshree
> movie, Jaanwar, "I wanna hold your hand.." wasn't it? That one
> really killed me, they shouldn't have touched the Beatles.. I don't
> remember what the Hindi version was, it was eminently forgettable
> anyway, imho..Rajshree in a blonde wig too...makes you plead for
> mercy..:)
Apna Annu Malik is a big Beatles fan, and also of George
Michael... Here's a few of his 'lifts' ---
Beatles:
Paagalpan chha gaya... (Jaanam) And I love her...
Interludes in Chamatkar songs Bunch of songs
George Michael & WHAM
Le lo le lo mera dil... (LaaT Saab) Faith
The AHAT song Last Christmas
I'm sure I'm missing out on plenty...
Sameet Agarwal
shai...@news.SanDiegoCA.ATTGIS.COM says...
>
> and now the hindi film enthusiasts might have got bored of the famous
> "Come September" tune (*ing Rock Hudson and Gina Lollobrigida)
> used by Anu Malik in 'Baazi' (Aamir Khan singing as a female dancer)
and
> bye Anand Milind for 'Raajaa' ('najaren mili, dil dhadaka, meri
dhadakan ne
> kahan, luv u raja.....)
>
Speaking of Baazi and plagiarism, does anyone remember the other song from
Baazi which was based on a Western symphony? One has to listen carefully to
realize that it is copied.
Sameet
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.
Neha Desai
music set to one of Richard Clayderman's song..
--
neha
Piyush Ramesh Bhagat
: In article <4apshh$r...@abbott.sandiegoca.attgis.com>,
: shai...@news.SanDiegoCA.ATTGIS.COM says...
: >
: > and now the hindi film enthusiasts might have got bored of the famous
: > "Come September" tune (*ing Rock Hudson and Gina Lollobrigida)
: > used by Anu Malik in 'Baazi' (Aamir Khan singing as a female dancer)
: and
: > bye Anand Milind for 'Raajaa' ('najaren mili, dil dhadaka, meri
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wasn't it Nadeem Shravan? If Indra Kumar wanted to change their music
directors, at least he should have changed for better and not worst.
: dhadakan ne
: > kahan, luv u raja.....)
: >
: Speaking of Baazi and plagiarism, does anyone remember the other song from
: Baazi which was based on a Western symphony? One has to listen carefully to
: realize that it is copied.
: Sameet
: --
: The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
: and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.
--
Piyush Ramesh Bhagat
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
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