Bhajans and bhajan singers in HFM

[Shakes]

Given that there have been a lot of devotional movies/songs in HFM, I
think there should be a lot of bhajans. However, I have always been
confused if all devotional songs are, by default, bhajans.

What are some of the good bhajans ?

This brings me to another point. Which singers do you think were
suited for such songs ?

Lata, IMO, is the best in this category. Kishore, unfortunately, has a
very bare cupboard. Mukesh - I am not sure if he is the best suited.
Rafi, again IMO, makes it hard for me to distinguish between a bhajan
and a ghazal.

Thanks,
Shekar.

[kali...@gmail.com]

I suppose bhajan needs voice of downtrodden, a beaten up peasant pleading before a tyrannical zamiindaar, the more pathetic his state the more emotional pitch he he covers. Mukesh fits the bill perfectly and Raj Kapoor the ever bashed up character is the face of that voice.

I was wondering if Asha was chosen to sing a bhajan and if she did, how it came out!

[Abhay Phadnis]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:32 AM UTC+5:30, Shakes wrote:
>

> Lata, IMO, is the best in this category. Kishore, unfortunately, has a
>
> very bare cupboard. Mukesh - I am not sure if he is the best suited.
>
> Rafi, again IMO, makes it hard for me to distinguish between a bhajan
>
> and a ghazal.
>

No argument about Lata being the best but, while I am not a huge Rafi fan, your last statement seems unfair to me. Consider this list (top-of-mind - I am sure a lot more would turn up in a simple Google search):

- baDii der bhayii nandaalaa
- man tarapat hari darshan ko aaj
- mai.n gwaalo rakhawaalo maiyaa
- suunaa suunaa laage braj kaa dhaam
- duniyaa na bhaaye mohe ab to bulaa le
- raadhike tuune bansarii churaa_ii
-

Which of these would one mistake for a ghazal?

Warm regards,
Abhay

[Abhay Phadnis]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 10:57:28 AM UTC+5:30, kali...@gmail.com wrote:
(snip)

>
> I was wondering if Asha was chosen to sing a bhajan

Yes, several times. A few in films (top of mind: sun le pukaar, jai raghunandan jai siyaaraam, saa.Nchaa naam teraa) and a ton of them outside films in Hindi and Marathi (most notably with Jaidev and Hridayanath).

> and if she did, how it came out!

Very well indeed!

Warm regards,
Abhay

[kali...@gmail.com]

>
> - raadhike tuune bansarii churaa_ii
>
> -

Is this or 'tu hai mera prem devtaa..' or 'naach re man badkamma..' a bhajan ? How is a bhajan defined?

[Shakes]

Though some of these warranted the way Rafi rendered them ("Man
tarpat" and "Duniya na bhaaye", for example), but there seems to be a
tinge of pathos/sadness in the way Rafi renders bhajans, which makes
it appear to me that he's singing something like a ghazal. Though I
agree that I am probably misrepresenting his renditions with a broad
brush.

There seems to be a subtle distinction between devotion and
supplication that sometimes the singer fails to grasp.

I forgot Manna Dey. I like his "Tu pyaar ka sagar hai".

[Vijay]

Strictly speaking, ghazal is a 'lyrical' rather than a 'musical' term.
It is rather defined by the way it is written and not the way it is
sung. A cursory search shall produce plenty info on what constitutes a
ghazal. That aside, it can be sung in so many ways. i.e. as a romantic
song as in ' yeh zulf agar khul ke bikhar jaae to acchha', as a
ghazal, as in ''chhalke terii aaNkhoN se" or "as a qawwaalii, as in
'kabhi ai haqiiqat-e-muNtezar, naz'r aa libaas-e-majaaz meN'.

'raNg aur noor kii saugaat kise pesh karuuN' from the film 'ghazal' is
strictly speaking, not a ghazal. Perhaps a naz'm, but not a ghazal as
it is often intrduced!

Best regards,

Vijay

[Afzal A. Khan]

He has sung another memorable bhajan in "Basant Bahar",
"BaRi der bhayee, kab lo ge KHabar".


Afzal

[Afzal A. Khan]

> Abhay



One more example : "Chitnandan aage naachooNgi", from
"Do Kaliyan".


Afzal

[Anil Kala]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:32 AM UTC+5:30, Shakes wrote:

Is 'madhuban men raadhika naache re...' devotional song?

[AR]

In general, I have never been a fan of Asha's bhajan singing. I am
always left with the feeling that something is sorely missing. I never
liked the Meera bhajans she sang for Jaidev.

But there are exceptions - for instance, some of the bhajans she sang
for Vasant Prabhu like "daLitaa kaanDita" and "raadha krishnavari
bhaaLali" are excellent. There was a Marathi film on Sant Sakhubai in
which Asha sang a wonderful bhajan "oothh baa vithhalaa oothh
rakhumapati". There is also the bhajan she sang for Sudhir Phadke -
"uthi shreerama pahaaT zhaali".

[kali...@gmail.com]

Who is Sitara Kanpur. She sounds like Lata

http://gaana.com/#!/songs/jo-tum-todo-piya

[vrk]

while i don't think he sang any film bhajans, I am a big fan of a gentleman called hari om sharan. his voice, so to say, was 'divine'. even MS had a lot of 'bhakti' in her songs, prob that's what prompted gandhi to ask her to speak a particular meera bhajan rather than him hearing anyone else sing it. iirc it was hari tum haro man ki ...

bhimsen joshi's two 'songs' (don't know if they can be called bhajans but i think they are) in ankahi, were other gems from my growing up years.

such songs brought me closer to god, whereas the narinder chanchal like voices took me away from him/her. it just made me feel that god was very old and badly in need of a good hearing aid.

i also feel yesudas could have sung great bhajans (though i cannot recall any).

I agree with the view that rafi's voice had that extra tinge of sadness, which makes one classify his bhajans as sad songs (or ghazals if the meter allows) rather than bhajans. but then, i love his bhajans (prob because i like sad songs) :)

[vijay...@my-deja.com]

Yesudas sang shyam rang rangaa re, har pal meraa re in Apne Paraye
A wonderful song by any yardstick

From Aalap, you have maata sarasvatii, another virtuoso rendition.
Beyond HFM, i have heard a full cassette of his songs for Ayyappa.

- vijay

[sunnyd...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:32 AM UTC+5:30, Shakes wrote:

> Given that there have been a lot of devotional movies/songs in HFM, I think there should be a lot of bhajans. However, I have always been confused if all devotional songs are, by default, bhajans. What are some of the good bhajans ? This brings me to another point. Which singers do you think were suited for such songs ? Lata, IMO, is the best in this category. Kishore, unfortunately, has a very bare cupboard. Mukesh - I am not sure if he is the best suited. Rafi, again IMO, makes it hard for me to distinguish between a bhajan and a ghazal. Thanks, Shekar.

Bhajan are normally based what we call 'Bhajani Theka' in Marathi, Dhi na dhi dhi na, Dhi na ti ti na. Secondly Bhajans are usually about praise of God. Sad pleas to Gods are not really Bhajans, as in its rightful context, bhajan is always sung in a temple as a part of worship. So all devotional songs may not be bhajans.

In films usually the heroin or hero remember God when they are neck deep in something and hence quite a few devotional songs in films are of supplication or surrender or complaint.

Radhike tu ne is not really a bhajan IMHO it's a tribute to the platonic love between Radha and Krishna. More of a romantic song.

Vijay rightly said, Ghazal is a lyrical form. But curious to know which of Rafi's bhajan sounded sung as a Ghazal to you?

regards,

Sunil
regards,

Sunil

[Balaji Murthy]

Hello Sunil,

Sorry for the nitpick, but the way you have laid out the beats, it
looks like a 10 beat cycle, though I think you mean a 10 beat cycle.
Of course, the common bhajani thekas are generally in 6 and 8 beat
cycles.

- Balaji

[Shakes]

On Oct 23, 4:47 am, sunnydande...@yahoo.com wrote:

> On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:32 AM UTC+5:30, Shakes wrote:
> > Given that there have been a lot of devotional movies/songs in HFM, I think there should be a lot of bhajans. However, I have always been confused if all devotional songs are, by default, bhajans. What are some of the good bhajans ? This brings me to another point. Which singers do you think were suited for such songs ? Lata, IMO, is the best in this category. Kishore, unfortunately, has a very bare cupboard. Mukesh - I am not sure if he is the best suited. Rafi, again IMO, makes it hard for me to distinguish between a bhajan and a ghazal. Thanks, Shekar.
>
> Bhajan are normally based what we call 'Bhajani Theka' in Marathi, Dhi na dhi dhi na, Dhi na ti ti na. Secondly Bhajans are usually about praise of  God. Sad pleas to Gods are not really Bhajans, as in its rightful context, bhajan is always sung in a temple as a part of worship. So all devotional songs may not be bhajans.
>
> In films usually the heroin or hero remember God when they are neck deep in something and hence quite a few devotional songs in films are of supplication or surrender or complaint.
>
> Radhike tu ne is not really a bhajan IMHO it's a tribute to the platonic love between Radha and Krishna. More of a romantic song.

Oh, ok. How about "Tu hai mera prem devata" or "Man tarpat hari
darshan" ? There is also a non-filmi "Paon padoon tore shyam".

>
> Vijay rightly said, Ghazal is a lyrical form. But curious to know which of Rafi's bhajan sounded sung as a Ghazal to you?
>

I apologize for the confusion. I was speaking more in terms of the
emotional tenor of the voice. My opinion was that when Rafi sings a
Bhajan, there is a tinge of sadness in his voice that is similar to
when he sings a Ghazal.

> regards,
>
> Sunil

regards,
Shekar.

[shu...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:32 AM UTC+5:30, Shakes wrote:

Kauno Thagava nagariya Lutal ho ..Asha Ankahee ..Jaidev

[Prasanna]

On Oct 24, 2:54 am, Balaji Murthy <bmur...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sorry for the nitpick, but the way you have laid out the beats, it
> looks like a 10 beat cycle, though I think you mean a 10 beat cycle.
> Of course, the common bhajani thekas are generally in 6 and 8 beat
> cycles.

Hi Balaji,

Understand what you are saying, Sunil only wrote down the "bol", not
the temporal distances between them (as one would in a notation).

What Sunil meant: (bhajani thekaa, 16 beat cycle)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
dhi . na dhi . dhi na .
dhi . na ti . ti na .

What you inferred: (same "bol" played in Jhap taal style, 10 beat
cycle)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
dhi na dhi dhi na dhi na ti ti na

Tabla, as any other percussion instrument, is the timekeeper and
therefore "khaalii" is as important as "taalii"! i.e. What is played
is as important as *when* it is played. Whereas the percussion
instruments help keep reference in time-domain, accompanying
instruments help establish reference in frequency domain (i.e.
distance between the notes). Choose a thekaa, a note-structure, drape
some lyrics over this and add appropriate emotions and there you have
the foundations of a song, be it a bhajan or any other form. I'll stop
now because I am digressing too much from the topic ;-)

Cheers,
Prasanna

[Balaji Murthy]

Hi Prasanna,

Thanks for beating some sense into my confusing and badly composed response to Sunil. There was a critical typo in my email, which I didn't notice till now. Instead of

"the way you have laid out the beats, it looks like a 10 beat cycle, though I think you mean a 10 beat cycle"

I meant to say

"the way you have laid out the beats, it looks like a 10 beat cycle, though I think you mean a *16* beat cycle"

Thanks for clarifying in details, and also mentioning Jhap taal, which was the implicit untold part of my response.

- Balaji

[sunnyd...@yahoo.com]

Thanks Prasanna and Balaji.

I should have mentioned that it is 8 beat rhythm.

I used to get confused by this taal. I knew that it was a 4 or 8 beat or 16 beat rhythm but was not able to get it to play according to the usual pattern when I was composing a bhajan. After experimenting I settled on 8 beats. I used to put the Midi notes according to following pattern, as that is how it is generally displayed in the notation books.

1 2 3 4
Dhin Na Dhin Dhi na
x ----------
Dhin Na Tin ti na
----------
However when I put notes according to this, the rhythm I got was very differnt.

After some trial and error, I placed the notes at

Dhin na dhin Dhi na
1 2 2.5 3.5 4

and then onwards I started getting acceptable rhythm for Bhajan. Someone may want to elaborate further on correct placement of bols. That would help me.

Just as an aside.

Once in the studio the singer wanted clicks to be sounded to guide him thru the silent patches in the song. The 4 beat click is horrible to keep track of song in Bhajani theka. It created huge confusion and everybody stared at me suspiciously, I could read 'the guy does not know first thing about the rhythm'. Then I had to open the midi track and show them that it was 4/4. And then we gave him the clicks that he wanted by putting the bell notes according to pattern given above.

regards,

Sunil

[Shakes]

On Oct 8, 2:57 am, Abhay Phadnis <aphad...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does "O Jag Ke Rakhwale" from "Door Gagan Ki Chaon Mein" qualify as a
Bhajan ? If so, Kishore has one to his credit, though he is sharing
the song with Manna Dey.

[Anil Kala]

>
> Yes, several times. A few in films (top of mind: sun le pukaar, jai raghunandan jai siyaaraam, saa.Nchaa naam teraa) and a ton of them outside films in Hindi and Marathi (most notably with Jaidev and Hridayanath).
>
>
>
> > and if she did, how it came out!
>
>
>
> Very well indeed!
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Abhay

I would agree. If Geeta Dutt sounds great in 'Aan mila aan milo shyaam sanware...' then surely Asha with a lot more emoting ability could easily sing bhajans. btw is this bhajan ('aan milo aan milo shyaam sanware..') based on baul tradition of Bengal?

[shu...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:32 AM UTC+5:30, Shakes wrote:

Bhajan can be described as song in praise of God or an appeal to God. Wile Gazal is convrsation with beloved.It is written with Radif and Kafiya.

[shu...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 8, 2012 8:34:32 AM UTC+5:30, Shakes wrote:

Jyuthika Roy is a noted bhajan singer
aaj mere ghar preetam aaye

aakaash tale jab deep jale

ankhon me Mathura hai Mohan mann me

anjaan nagar anjaan dagar

aayi diwaali deep jalaao

roti ankhiyaan naa samjhe samjhaaye

Juthika Roy Bhajans

darshan bina prabhuji dukhan laage

ghunghat ke pat khol - Meera Bai

kanhaiya pe tan man nichaawar karne

pag ghunghru baandh meera naachi re

tore ang se ang mila ke kanhaai ho

Tulsi Meera Sur Kabir

[Prasanna]

Hi Sunil,

Instead of treating bhajanii Thekaa as an 8 beat metronome ("1-2-3-4,
5-6-7-8" with stress on beats 1 and 5), treat is as "1-2-3, 4-5,
6-7-8" (3 + 2 + 3 adding up to 8) with stress on the beats 1, 3, 4, 6
and 7, which is where the bols are played. Hopefully this will avoid
confusion ;-)

1----2----3 1----2 1----2----3

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
dhi . na dhi . dhi na .
dhi . na ti . ti na .

I loaded a 16 beat segment taken from the intro portion of one of your
own songs (aruupaache ruupa shriiharii swaruupa) where the Tabla is
playing bhajanii Thekaa and marked the bols after overlaying a grid on
it, see below

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/c9j2m

Unfortunately, since Tabla was mixed with other tracks, you can't
visualise just the Tabla bols, but I found the Tabla bols are "on-
time" as I have marked them.

In comparison, I also loaded 16 beat portion of bhajanii Thekaa
produced by a commercial Tabla software company and marked the bols
after overlaying a similar grid, see below

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/chjg9

Here, one can visualise the bols better since only the Tabla is
playing. However, you can see that the Tabla player is slightly "off-
time", but generally the bols are in the vicinity where you expect
them to be. I have marked lines in green where I feel the bols should
have been played.

What MIDI software do you use?
Cheers,
Prasanna