Kishore Kumar great ? what bullshit

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Ravi Krishna

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May 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/22/97
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kul...@hclhpstp.stpn.soft.net says...

>So let's talk about Kishore Kumar. I just can't understand how a person
>with even a little sense of music can question Kishore Kumar's Singing
>skills and more than that his versatility. Kishore Kumar was, is and will
>be the only singer who could sing just any kind of song with the maximum
>emotions and skills that song demanded. He could sing his typical songs
>like "Main hoon jhumroo", "Ena Mina Dika" , romantic songs like "Chhookar
>mere man ko", "O mere dil ke chain", sad songs like "Mere naina sawan
>bhadon","Ghungroo ki tarah", sensuos songs "Roop Tera mastana", "Nahin
>Nahin", Classicals like "Chingari koi bahdke", "Ek chatur naar" Mast
>songs "Khaike paan banaras wala" "Pal bhar ke liye" "Jaane Jaan Dhoondta"

You have just displayed your 'great' knowledge of music by the above
heroworshipping of the 'most overrated singer of the century' KK.
Before I go any further I would like you to listen to songs of Lata M in
the film Lekin (1991). Lata M was clearly past her best in 80's , yet she
was able to sing two very difficult (impossible by KK standards) songs.
The songs are:

"suniyo ji araz hamari"
"kesariya baalma"

I would consider the above two songs as a litmus test for any film
singer(there are other great songs also,but for starters this is enuf). I
would love to hear KK making a pathetic attempt in singing those 2 songs
with his not-so-great ability.
Please do not come up with standard lame excuses (typical of KK fans) that
LataM learnt classical music while KK didn't and hence he could not sing
classical songs. Who prevented KK from learning classical music and
sharpening his skills.

No doubt KK was a fine singer and he could sing very well,provided all
songs were light and demanded no special ability on the part of singer.
This is an unpalatable truth which every KK fan has to accept, whether
grudgingly or as a matter of fact is left to the fan.

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Anand Tiwari

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May 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/22/97
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In article <8643393...@dejanews.com>, r_kr...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>

Hi Ravi,
You surprise me with every post on this topic. In the earlier
post with the same title (except that KK was changed to AB) you said
"nothing more to say" Obviously you tried to control your anger and were
unable to do so as is evident in this post. :)
Since you are so vehement in saying that KK did not know classical let
me point it out that KK sung two Rabindra Sangeet numbers for satyjit
Ray in his film "Ghare Baire". Now i do not know at what level you place
Ray, but in ray's opinon those songs were 'perfectly' sung by KK (I am
quoting "anandalok" the prestious Bengali film mag). Now Rabindra
Sangeet is not the same as classical but i would love to see (i am using
your words) how many singers whom you put in the "great category" would
have sung it.
You point out 2 songs from lekin which "you" consider the litmus test.
How can you say KK could not have sung them? I mean what is the basis for
this assumption. Also if classical singing makes a Hindi plyback singer
best then i think Manna Dey should be your all time favourite.
By your logic and arguement if a person knows classical he is a good
singer and if he doesn't he is a bad singer. So why do we need film play
back singers at all. there are many luminaries in the field of
classical gayaki who according to your aruement can sing film songs.
In the entire post by Kuldeep you had no point to hit out except the
"classical" point. Why don't you for a change respond to his specific
query where he quoted you as saying "KK ran away from songs which required
better singing abilities". Even Chikalpati Jagadish had asked you on RAMLI
to give an example where KK "ran away from a song" Why do you skirt the
issue?
I am not questioning your desire to nurture an extreme hatred for KK who
was in commercial sense your idol Mohd Rafi's closest rival.
Using your words: "Whether you accept it grudgingly or as a matter of
fact" Kishore Kumar outdid Mohd Rafi in the '70s in terms of popularity
and songs. No singer not Lata, not Mohd Rafi not Manna Dey could
sing "Zindagi ek safar hai suhaana" the way KK did. They wouldn't
even dare to attempt it. Should i put it as the litmus test, just as
you quote the 2 beautiful numbers from "Lekin" and say KK could never
sing them.
A classical base is necessary for a playback singer , so say the pundits.
KK made it big without that base on the strength of his inborn capabilities.
He could compose, write lyrics, act. Which Playback singer has been able
to achieve all those feats?
My point is KK was a great singer. Whether he was the best depends on a
person's individual choice. To call him "overrated" smells of extreme
prejudice.

regards
Anand

arunabha_roy

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May 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/22/97
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Hi RMIMers,
I believe the 2 songs sung by KK for Ghare Baire were "Tumi Ki Emon Shaktimaan"
and " Aami chini go chini " . These were no doubt sung well for the movie,
but I would hesitate to say that KK excelled at singing Rabindra Sangeet .
Whether his voice lacks the tonal quality necessary for it i could not say, for
the one cassette on Rabindra Sangeet by KK that I have is sung by him at an
advanced age, but it definitely would not make one go into raptures .
As for the litmus test of " Zindagi ek safar hai suhana" I have to admit it's
tough to find a male singer do the equivalent, but I think Asha's version
outshone his. And I would like to suggest that the reason why that is the case is
the musical prowess of her (or her elder sister) , only possible due to musical
honing. KK xcelled in songs of a light hearted nature definitely, but however I
would never bestow him with accolades on the same scale as Asha or Lata. I definitely
accept that the fact that he survived without classical training is ample testimony
to some unpinpointable appeal or kashish in his voice, but this is to be distinguished from
virtuosity. In my opinion KK was always ranked as ordinary till I recently heard
"Phir wohi raat hai" from Ghar. I now do admit that certain serious songs he sang were
good performances , and that soulful singers like even Talat , far ahead in terms
of musical knowledge and quality , may not evoke the same appeal in certain songs
by Kishore.
However returning to the other thread, I think I will def. agree that classical
training to a certain extent (not pushed overboard) , is a must for an aspiring
playback singer. What is it about Hariharan's and Suresh Wadkar's songs that will
rank their best (popular best ) above Kumar Sanu's ? Do you not feel that the fact
that Lata is able to sing at ~ 70 and be accepted (apart from her overhyped
appeal) is due in some measure to her musical perfection? Could an ordinary voice be
preserved that long ? Agreed that Lata's has diminished in sweetness, but then surely Asha is a case
in poiunt . (I must admit Asha is my favourite) . Ifeel she has kept the ravges
of age away from her singing at all costs.
While music is always a matter of personal taste, I think it is not going to
o far to say that KK has been overhyped. That he has won such adulation is partly owing to
some measure of his greatness, but the fact that he is compared with singers
whom he is not equal to in terms of vocal agility bespeaks of excessive adoration
Possibly that too is a matter of personal taste, and the notion of being overhyped or not
too depends on the person.
Personally while I do not appreciate KK much, I feel there sre songs which
he sang that others couldn't with the same effect (not perfection) , but also vice
versa. I think that Ravi has pointed out appropriately that while KK fans may adore his singing genius, they should
accept his limitations as a singer too. Lastly I believe the inportance of classi
cal music in film music cannot be understated. It is that which distinguishes the
"melody " of yesteryear from the (possibly equally" appealing rhythm of today.
Can mere fusion and high tech rhythm produce "Nainon me badra chhaye" to touch the
heart ? I don' think so. That calls for more art. While excessive training in
the classical genre produces for artists a rugged and robust voice, somewhat unsuited for the rendering
of lilting tunes required for filmdom, what better example than Yesudas , Manna
Dey and Talat Mehmood to the wonder that smooth perfected voices can achieve !
I hope this does not generate any harsh sentiments in either KKK / Rafian
fan clubs. I personally do not belong to either and am as such neutral.
Arunabha.
In article <5m2nf5$4...@drn.zippo.com>, an...@cegt201.bradley.edu says...

TK

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May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
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In article <8643393...@dejanews.com>, r_kr...@hotmail.com ( Ravi
Krishna ) wrote:

snippy...


> Please do not come up with standard lame excuses (typical of KK fans) that
> LataM learnt classical music while KK didn't and hence he could not sing
> classical songs. Who prevented KK from learning classical music and
> sharpening his skills.
>
> No doubt KK was a fine singer and he could sing very well,provided all
> songs were light and demanded no special ability on the part of singer.
> This is an unpalatable truth which every KK fan has to accept, whether
> grudgingly or as a matter of fact is left to the fan.


Dear misinformed:

KK DID learn classical music, don't know where you got your facts from!
For a sampling of his semi-classical light base, listen to O Majhi Re,
Mere Naina Sawan Badhon, Gungroo ki tarah, Tere bina zindagi mein shikwa,
Tum aa gaye ho, to name a few.

-TK

Rajan P. Parrikar

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May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
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Arunabha Roy writes:

>Hi RMIMers,
> I believe the 2 songs sung by KK for Ghare Baire were "Tumi Ki Emon Shaktimaan"
>and " Aami chini go chini " . These were no doubt sung well for the movie,
> but I would hesitate to say that KK excelled at singing Rabindra Sangeet .

"Aami chini go chini" is from Charulotaa. The delivery is pleasant enough
but Satyajit Ray should have insisted on a re-take. There is slight
uncertainty in Kishore Kumar's treatment of the antaraa, particularly when
he returns to "O go bideshini." I suspect a shift of pitch to perhaps a
semitone higher would have given Kishore the required leeway.

r

Sambit Basu

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May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
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an...@cegt201.bradley.edu(Anand Tiwari) writes:


>Since you are so vehement in saying that KK did not know classical let
>me point it out that KK sung two Rabindra Sangeet numbers for satyjit
>Ray in his film "Ghare Baire". Now i do not know at what level you place
>Ray, but in ray's opinon those songs were 'perfectly' sung by KK (I am
>quoting "anandalok" the prestious Bengali film mag). Now Rabindra
>Sangeet is not the same as classical but i would love to see (i am using
>your words) how many singers whom you put in the "great category" would
>have sung it.


Ray, being a film-maker first, was more concerned with
the application of a song in a situation than the
"perfect" rendition of a song, IMO. A situation in
a film may require less than "perfect" rendition of a
song (in musical terms) to be a "perfect" application
in the film.

KK was a great singer, but I don't think, Ray's
compliment here should be taken in that light, especially
when one is talking about Rabindrsangeet. Even not-so-
orthodox school of Rabindrasangeet does not take KK
as a serious RS singer.

Sambit

Anand Tiwari

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May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
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In article <5m4phu$s...@drn.zippo.com>, r_kr...@hotmail.com says...
>
>an...@cegt201.bradley.edu(Anand Tiwari) wrote:-

>
>> Since you are so vehement in saying that KK did not know classical let
>> me point it out that KK sung two Rabindra Sangeet numbers for satyjit
>> Ray in his film "Ghare Baire". Now i do not know at what level you place
>> Ray, but in ray's opinon those songs were 'perfectly' sung by KK (I am
>> quoting "anandalok" the prestious Bengali film mag). Now Rabindra
>> Sangeet is not the same as classical but i would love to see (i am using
>> your words) how many singers whom you put in the "great category" would
>> have sung it.
>
>This has already been answered by Arunabha Roy.

Yes and you accept it because it agrees with your opinion. the point
which Arunabha did not answer was why Ray thought it was 'perfect'.
I would like to point out that Ray was very very knowledgable about
music and has composed music for several of his films (details from
Andrew Robinson's biography of Satyajit Ray).


>> Using your words: "Whether you accept it grudgingly or as a matter of
>> fact" Kishore Kumar outdid Mohd Rafi in the '70s in terms of popularity
>> and songs. No singer not Lata, not Mohd Rafi not Manna Dey could
>> sing "Zindagi ek safar hai suhaana" the way KK did. They wouldn't
>> even dare to attempt it. Should i put it as the litmus test, just as
>> you quote the 2 beautiful numbers from "Lekin" and say KK could never
>> sing them.
>

>Are you serious when you compare the Lekin song with that stupid monkey
>shouting song of "Andaaz". Man don't insult music.

No, neither i am comparing the exquisitely beautiful "Kesariya Baalma"
with the pedestrian "Zindagi ek safar hai suhaana" nor i am insulting
music. I was simply pointing out that we cannot have such arbitary litmus
tests.

>Nope , the pundits need not say so. Any one who appreciates **GOOD** (caps
>lock intended) music will never rate any singer highly if he / she can't sing
>classical songs. To give you an analogy in cricket ( sorry to drag cricket
>here) , no batsman will ever be rated highly unless and until he knows how to
>play fast bowling well. Go and ask any cricket fan anywhere in the world.
>Why is Azharuddin not rated high inspite of being extremly stylish and quite
>a prolific scorer too. Bcos he is a sitting duck against fast bowling.
>It's not a coinincidence that almost all the difficult songs have influence of
>classical music.

At least i agree with you on Azhar :) BTW read Harsha "Azhar is the
greatest" Bhogle's coloumns. He perhaps needs a piece of your mind :))

>> My point is KK was a great singer. Whether he was the best depends on a
>> person's individual choice. To call him "overrated" smells of extreme
>> prejudice.
>

>Sorry that's your view. I still rate him as an overrated singer and it is not
>a prejudice but an unpalatable truth.
>

Sorry Ravi, but that is ** YOUR ** (Caps intended) view. You
** CANNOT ** (Caps intended) pass it off as an unpalatable truth.

regards
Anand

Ravi Krishna

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May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
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In article <tk-230597...@blore.ce.utk.edu>, t...@halva.edu says...

>Dear misinformed:
>
>KK DID learn classical music, don't know where you got your facts from!
>For a sampling of his semi-classical light base, listen to O Majhi Re,
>Mere Naina Sawan Badhon, Gungroo ki tarah, Tere bina zindagi mein shikwa,
>Tum aa gaye ho, to name a few.


HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA !
HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA !
HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA !
HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA !
HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA !
HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA ! HA !

This is the first time in my life ( and hopefully for the last time) I am
hearing that KK learnt classical music.
The list of so-called classical songs mentioned above is quite easily the
joke of the year.

Tomorrow someone will say that pigs fly.

arunabha_roy

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May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
to

Hi Anand and the rest,
I did write a clarification to my previous mail
but it seems to have got lost in the traffic. Anyway, let me therefore
relaunch my lcarifications.
First, thanks for tyhe info. re: the song from Charuolata
. I did remember that this song was sung for Saumitra in Charu. but I wasn't
sure if the self same song appeared in Ghare Baire as well. As I am not an
expert in Rabindra Sangeet (merely enjoy singing and hearing them, I won't
comment further. More knowledgeable Bongs than me could comment. Only, let
me say that I spoke of some OTHER SONGS (R.Sangeet ) by KK being so-so , and
that too compared to conventional RS singers. I am not making any comparison between
his version and possible other playbacks , so there is no cause for acrimony.
I must categorically state that I have the highest regard for S. Ray , and his
sense of music. I am in no way saying that his opinion of
KK's RS must be taken lightly. I am by no means an authority on that subject;
I only gave my opinion on another cassette of RS by KK. BTW, I did hear an LP
by Mohd. rafi of Nazrul Geeti in which he completely murdered " Pashaner bhangale
ghum", possibly due in a large part to the pronunciation. This does not make
him a bad singer. The output depends on the song as well as the singer. Prob.
Rafi wasn't comfortable with that kind of song, due to singing in a diff. language.
The othe thing I want to stress is I did not want to participate in
any KK bashing. I'm a bengali myself, and so , if at all should be proud of a
"son of Bengal"'s phenomenal success. I was only trying to be objective, but
wherever I got carried away, well, let me withdraw those statements unconditionally
. As everyone agrees on this NG, music is a personal thing and everyone is entitled
to HHO (his /her humble opinion)
Thanks for the three KK songs. I have heard them all
and they are good. I like Geet gaaata
hoon main from Lal patthar , and Ghunghroo ki tarah a lot. I am curious to heasr the song from
Bemisaal - somehow the video version I saw in Dec. must have missed it, or else i
must have missed it. S. wadkar's voice is not always pleasing, and I could
easily imagine a song possible which KK would do a better job on.

In article <5m4du3$g...@drn.zippo.com>, an...@cegt201.bradley.edu says...
>
>In article <5m343f$f...@drn.zippo.com>, Arunabha says...
>>

>Hi Arunabha,
> I cannot tell you how happy Ravi must have been after reading
>your post (which includes some very indirect and discreet KK bashing, in
>the garb of decent language :) ). Thanks for pointing out the 2 'decent'
>Rabindra Sangeet numbers. I wonder why Ray thought that they were 'perfectly'
>sung.
>
>
>
>
>
>Perhaps you could listen to a) Badi sooni sooni hai from Mili
>b) Woh shaam kuchch ajeeb thi from khamoshi
>c) Koi hota jisko apna from Mere Apne
>
>Just listing 3 more of KK's well sung 'serious' songs. It goes without
>doubt that KK bashing has become the rule of RMIM nowadays. The main
>reason for this is that the KLAN members are too busy to participate in
>such a debate. I would love to see Ravi and you argue it out with
>Rajan Parrikar (who has a 'complete' knowledge of classical), Ketan
>Dholakia, Anup Pandey, Arun Verma and Pradeep Dubey. Not only would this
>lead to a more lively debate but also a more informed one.
>
On the film line, I make no claims to be very well informed. I have some
knowledge of classical music, and so tunes with class. base appeal to me. However
that's only my opinion, and of course not evryone will think the same way. My
mistake in the previous post was the omission of IMHO before my statements.
With an IMHO, I would not have generated ill feeling, I suppose.
>
>>
>You are indirectly implying that Suresh Wadkar and Hariharan are 'better'
>singers than KK. Perhaps you could listen to "Kitni khubsoorat yeh
>tasveer hai" from Bemisal. Classical training cannot substitute for
>voice quality which is the BASIC and MOST IMPORTANT virtue of a singer.
>BTW the above mentioned song shows how your classically trained Suresh
>Wadkar fares against the classically 'zero' KK :-) and let me tell you
>that Suresh W is PATHETIC against KK in that song.
>

No, I make no comparison between the singers. If it's implied, it's unfortunate. Perhaps an IMHO will
do the job. I specifically DID compare them with Kumar Nasu though. Ithink
there's no danger of clashing w/ a KS Klan here :-) However I disagree that either training/ intriunsic
talent should be considered the sole BASiC / MOST IMPORTANT criterion- they
ideally will go hand in hand. That KK managed to succeed without any is
testimony to a great deal of inner talent. But I cannot imagine anyone
with a similar background (or lack thereof !) making it today- it would
be tough. Just so that I do not sound as being weighty and authoritarian, let
me just note that I am quoting O. P. Nayyar's comments on the issue. (last three sentences)
It is interesting that OPN himsef is another case of an immensely successful
MD without formal training, who himself espouses the cause of class. training.
It is clear that a crow, no matter how much you train him, will not sing .
But that does not eliminate the room for improvement of one's voice with riyaaz.

About litmus tests I agree w/ both of you. IMHO Sunio ji may not be within
KK's range , but I could be wrong. I think it's an exceptionally difficult
song and would def. be tough for ANY singer to render. I am not a Lata fan
myself; I only chose her exampole since I cannot refute that she is a success
who herself claimed riyaaz as necessary to keep her voice intact. That it is not
as intact as it could have been is a different matter. One must allow age its toll
, I suppose :-)
However Sunio ji need not be the litmus test for playback singers
today- the sure fire proof of this is singers like Alka Yagnik and Kumar
Sanu. They have succeeded wiothout training . (That I personally hate their
songs is a different matter, but as far as making it, they have succeeded)
On the positive side, Kavita Krishnamoorty has (IMHO) sung some songs quite well
despite a mere smattering of classical training.


>> While music is always a matter of personal taste, I think it is not going to
>>o far to say that KK has been overhyped. That he has won such adulation is partly owing to
>>some measure of his greatness, but the fact that he is compared with singers

>>whom he is not equal to in terms of vocal agility bespeaks of excessive adorati\
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Is this not your opinion :-) Somebody might find KK to be the best voice
>ever. You negate the very tone of your post with this assertion.
>
OK , I take it back. Agreed.

>>Possibly that too is a matter of personal taste, and the notion of being overhyped or not
>>too depends on the person.
>

>There you come back to the right track :-)


>
>> Personally while I do not appreciate KK much, I feel there sre songs

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

>This is a decent way of saying " I feel KK was shit, but since he is so
>popular, kya karen, i cannot openly say that he is shit" :))
>
:-) I AM a decent person ! :-)OK, let me clarify that, were the above, REALLY
my opinion, I would not hesitate to put it in no uncertain terms. Till some
time back, it was indeed. BUt my opinion of KK is currently undert review and reform.
My tastes change appreciably over time. Till three or four years back I was an
avowed Lata fan, but now i've switched compl. to Asha. I used to quite actively
participate in Asha -Lata flame wars in fact before some saint mellowed me down.

> which
>>he sang that others couldn't with the same effect (not perfection) , but also vice
>>versa. I think that Ravi has pointed out appropriately that while KK fans may adore his singing genius

>^^
>Why such a sermon to KK fans? Should i tell Lata fans to accept "as a
>matter of fact or grudgingly" that Lata is now besura beyond redemption
>(using Rajan P 's words). Nobody is de emphasising the importance of classical
>training. But is it the only virtue which counts (according to KK bashers
>like you) in playback singing. By that account Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali
>khan is the best playback singer in film history leaving behind Lata
>and everybody :)

OK, I take back the sermon. But surely no singer is perfect and capable of evry kind of song ?


>>
>
>How can it generate any negative sentiments in any other camp apart from
>KKklan since you have so decently indulged in KK bashing :) Before
>parting let me draw your attention to the last 2 lines of my previous
>post

:-) OK, just to balance out the account , I have indulged in negative comments re:
Rafi. (in light vein) . I repeat I do not subscribe to either of the two fan clubs,
and like/ dislike SPECIFIC songs sung by BOTH of them.


>=======================================================================


>>>My point is KK was a great singer. Whether he was the best depends on a
>>>person's individual choice. To call him "overrated" smells of extreme
>>>prejudice.

>======================================================================> regards
> Anand
I think your first two observations are correct and fair. The second is YHO
(Your HOnest opinion) . I would be more mild and say that it smells of the con
cerned person's personal music tastes and preferences..

A request to the many Maharashtrians on this NG: IMHO the best song (w/ a class.
base ) that I have heard of Asha bhosle is from an old B/W Marathi film that
goes "Aaj kuni tari yaawe " . Do you have any idea where one could ge hold of such gems.
I searched a lot in Mumbaiu to no avail. Any idea what the name of the film is ?

BTW, thanks a lot (Neha Desai I believe) , for the link to Varsha Bhosle's article.
It was extremely touching to read, as well as informative.

On a pos. note, I wanted to add that I'm impressed by your knowledge about Bong films./
music as evinced by your posts, whereas you do not seem to be a Bong by surname.
It was nice to get your views on this issue.
Regards,
Arunabha

Anand Tiwari

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May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
to

In article <5m343f$f...@drn.zippo.com>, Arunabha says...
>
>Hi RMIMers,
> I believe the 2 songs sung by KK for Ghare Baire were "Tumi Ki Emon Shaktimaan"
>and " Aami chini go chini " . These were no doubt sung well for the movie,
> but I would hesitate to say that KK excelled at singing Rabindra Sangeet .
>Whether his voice lacks the tonal quality necessary for it i could not say, for
>the one cassette on Rabindra Sangeet by KK that I have is sung by him at an
>advanced age, but it definitely would not make one go into raptures .

Hi Arunabha,


I cannot tell you how happy Ravi must have been after reading
your post (which includes some very indirect and discreet KK bashing, in
the garb of decent language :) ). Thanks for pointing out the 2 'decent'
Rabindra Sangeet numbers. I wonder why Ray thought that they were 'perfectly'
sung.

> As for the litmus test of " Zindagi ek safar hai suhana" I have to admit it's


>tough to find a male singer do the equivalent, but I think Asha's version
>outshone his.

You are a self confessed fan of Asha, so i would not challenge your opinion.


And I would like to suggest that the reason why that is the case is
>the musical prowess of her (or her elder sister) , only possible due to musical
>honing. KK xcelled in songs of a light hearted nature definitely, but however I
>would never bestow him with accolades on the same scale as Asha or Lata. I definitely
>accept that the fact that he survived without classical training is ample testimony
>to some unpinpointable appeal or kashish in his voice, but this is to be distinguished from
>virtuosity. In my opinion KK was always ranked as ordinary till I recently heard
>"Phir wohi raat hai" from Ghar.

Perhaps you could listen to a) Badi sooni sooni hai from Mili


b) Woh shaam kuchch ajeeb thi from khamoshi
c) Koi hota jisko apna from Mere Apne

Just listing 3 more of KK's well sung 'serious' songs. It goes without
doubt that KK bashing has become the rule of RMIM nowadays. The main
reason for this is that the KLAN members are too busy to participate in
such a debate. I would love to see Ravi and you argue it out with
Rajan Parrikar (who has a 'complete' knowledge of classical), Ketan
Dholakia, Anup Pandey, Arun Verma and Pradeep Dubey. Not only would this
lead to a more lively debate but also a more informed one.

> However returning to the other thread, I think I will def. agree that classical
>training to a certain extent (not pushed overboard) , is a must for an aspiring
>playback singer. What is it about Hariharan's and Suresh Wadkar's songs that will
>rank their best (popular best ) above Kumar Sanu's ? Do you not feel that the fact
>that Lata is able to sing at ~ 70 and be accepted (apart from her overhyped
>appeal) is due in some measure to her musical perfection? Could an ordinary voice be
>preserved that long ? Agreed that Lata's has diminished in sweetness, but then surely Asha is a case
>in poiunt . (I must admit Asha is my favourite) . Ifeel she has kept the ravges
>of age away from her singing at all costs.

You are indirectly implying that Suresh Wadkar and Hariharan are 'better'


singers than KK. Perhaps you could listen to "Kitni khubsoorat yeh
tasveer hai" from Bemisal. Classical training cannot substitute for
voice quality which is the BASIC and MOST IMPORTANT virtue of a singer.
BTW the above mentioned song shows how your classically trained Suresh
Wadkar fares against the classically 'zero' KK :-) and let me tell you
that Suresh W is PATHETIC against KK in that song.

> While music is always a matter of personal taste, I think it is not going to


>o far to say that KK has been overhyped. That he has won such adulation is partly owing to
>some measure of his greatness, but the fact that he is compared with singers

>whom he is not equal to in terms of vocal agility bespeaks of excessive adorati\
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is this not your opinion :-) Somebody might find KK to be the best voice
ever. You negate the very tone of your post with this assertion.

>Possibly that too is a matter of personal taste, and the notion of being overhyped or not

>too depends on the person.

There you come back to the right track :-)


> Personally while I do not appreciate KK much, I feel there sre songs

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a decent way of saying " I feel KK was shit, but since he is so
popular, kya karen, i cannot openly say that he is shit" :))

which


>he sang that others couldn't with the same effect (not perfection) , but also vice
>versa. I think that Ravi has pointed out appropriately that while KK fans may adore his singing genius

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A thunderous applause :) Ravi must be delighted. He has now a comrade who
can attack KK with the same intensity but different style.


, they should
>accept his limitations as a singer too. Lastly I believe the inportance of clas

Why such a sermon to KK fans? Should i tell Lata fans to accept "as a

matter of fact or grudgingly" that Lata is now besura beyond redemption
(using Rajan P 's words). Nobody is de emphasising the importance of classical
training. But is it the only virtue which counts (according to KK bashers
like you) in playback singing. By that account Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali
khan is the best playback singer in film history leaving behind Lata
and everybody :)

!
> I hope this does not generate any harsh sentiments in either KKK / Rafian
>fan clubs. I personally do not belong to either and am as such neutral.

How can it generate any negative sentiments in any other camp apart from


KKklan since you have so decently indulged in KK bashing :) Before
parting let me draw your attention to the last 2 lines of my previous
post

=======================================================================


>>My point is KK was a great singer. Whether he was the best depends on a
>>person's individual choice. To call him "overrated" smells of extreme
>>prejudice.

=========================================================================

regards
Anand
>>
>>

Ravi Krishna

unread,
May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
to

an...@cegt201.bradley.edu(Anand Tiwari) wrote:-

> Since you are so vehement in saying that KK did not know classical let
> me point it out that KK sung two Rabindra Sangeet numbers for satyjit
> Ray in his film "Ghare Baire". Now i do not know at what level you place
> Ray, but in ray's opinon those songs were 'perfectly' sung by KK (I am
> quoting "anandalok" the prestious Bengali film mag). Now Rabindra
> Sangeet is not the same as classical but i would love to see (i am using
> your words) how many singers whom you put in the "great category" would
> have sung it.

This has already been answered by Arunabha Roy.

> You point out 2 songs from lekin which "you" consider the litmus test.
> How can you say KK could not have sung them? I mean what is the basis for
> this assumption. Also if classical singing makes a Hindi plyback singer
> best then i think Manna Dey should be your all time favourite.

Manny Dey is one of my favorite , much above than overrated KK. Rafi
was also good but not in the same class as MD when it comes to classical
music. However Rafi was far more versatile and could sing different types of
songs and that's why he is my favorite alongwith S P Balasubramiam ( in south
songs). Like KK , SPB also did not learn any classical songs before he
started singing in film music. He learnt it later ( when he had to sing for
Sankarabranam). Even though he may not reach the heights of Yesudas or MD he
is far more a accomplished singer than KK. The swaram which he puts at the end
of the "mettu podu" in the film Duet is just too much for singers like KK.
This song is also in Hindi in the film (tu hi mera dil). I haven't heard it.



> By your logic and arguement if a person knows classical he is a good
> singer and if he doesn't he is a bad singer. So why do we need film play
> back singers at all. there are many luminaries in the field of
> classical gayaki who according to your aruement can sing film songs.

Not every song is classical based. Even those which are classical based can
be sung by singers like MD,LataM,AshaB,Rafi bcos film music is inherently
lighter than classical music. There is no need to bring classical singers
unless it is beyong the reach of film singers. This has happened couple of
times like in the song "madhuban mein radhika" from Kohinoor. The alaaps in
that song were rendered by Bade Gulam Ali Khan for the simple reason that
Rafi was not capable of it.

> In the entire post by Kuldeep you had no point to hit out except the
> "classical" point. Why don't you for a change respond to his specific
> query where he quoted you as saying "KK ran away from songs which required
> better singing abilities". Even Chikalpati Jagadish had asked you on RAMLI
> to give an example where KK "ran away from a song" Why do you skirt the
> issue?

The phrase "ran away" is not to be taken literally but is a symbolic reference
that KK would find it impossible. Like they say in Hindi "panni maangega" ,
not to be taken literally that KK will ask for water.



> I am not questioning your desire to nurture an extreme hatred for KK who
> was in commercial sense your idol Mohd Rafi's closest rival.

Rafi is one of my favorite singer, but to say he was my idol is insulting
greater singers like Lata M , Asha B. If I consider any singer to be perfect
for any type of songs it is LM and AB.



> Using your words: "Whether you accept it grudgingly or as a matter of
> fact" Kishore Kumar outdid Mohd Rafi in the '70s in terms of popularity
> and songs. No singer not Lata, not Mohd Rafi not Manna Dey could
> sing "Zindagi ek safar hai suhaana" the way KK did. They wouldn't
> even dare to attempt it. Should i put it as the litmus test, just as
> you quote the 2 beautiful numbers from "Lekin" and say KK could never
> sing them.

Are you serious when you compare the Lekin song with that stupid monkey
shouting song of "Andaaz". Man don't insult music.

> A classical base is necessary for a playback singer , so say the pundits.

Nope , the pundits need not say so. Any one who appreciates **GOOD** (caps
lock intended) music will never rate any singer highly if he / she can't sing
classical songs. To give you an analogy in cricket ( sorry to drag cricket
here) , no batsman will ever be rated highly unless and until he knows how to
play fast bowling well. Go and ask any cricket fan anywhere in the world.
Why is Azharuddin not rated high inspite of being extremly stylish and quite
a prolific scorer too. Bcos he is a sitting duck against fast bowling.
It's not a coinincidence that almost all the difficult songs have influence of
classical music.

> KK made it big without that base on the strength of his inborn capabilities.


> He could compose, write lyrics, act. Which Playback singer has been able
> to achieve all those feats?

this is a different issue. We are talking about KK the singer.



> My point is KK was a great singer. Whether he was the best depends on a
> person's individual choice. To call him "overrated" smells of extreme
> prejudice.

Ravi Krishna

unread,
May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
to

> an...@cegt201.bradley.edu(Anand Tiwari) wrote:-


> Perhaps you could listen to a) Badi sooni sooni hai from Mili
> b) Woh shaam kuchch ajeeb thi from khamoshi
> c) Koi hota jisko apna from Mere Apne

> Just listing 3 more of KK's well sung 'serious' songs. It goes without
> doubt that KK bashing has become the rule of RMIM nowadays. The main

Not so long ago blind hero worshipping of KK was a norm in RMIM. No wonder I
call KK as the holy cow of RMIM. Thank God sanity is returning in RMIM and
that's why we see some anti KK posts.



> reason for this is that the KLAN members are too busy to participate in
> such a debate. I would love to see Ravi and you argue it out with
> Rajan Parrikar (who has a 'complete' knowledge of classical), Ketan
> Dholakia, Anup Pandey, Arun Verma and Pradeep Dubey. Not only would this
> lead to a more lively debate but also a more informed one.

Sure buddy , I am also waiting.

> You are indirectly implying that Suresh Wadkar and Hariharan are 'better'
> singers than KK. Perhaps you could listen to "Kitni khubsoorat yeh
> tasveer hai" from Bemisal. Classical training cannot substitute for
> voice quality which is the BASIC and MOST IMPORTANT virtue of a singer.
> BTW the above mentioned song shows how your classically trained Suresh
> Wadkar fares against the classically 'zero' KK :-) and let me tell you
> that Suresh W is PATHETIC against KK in that song.

Agreed , KK sang better than Suresh W in the bemisaal song.




> A thunderous applause :) Ravi must be delighted. He has now a comrade who
> can attack KK with the same intensity but different style.

Yup , I am delighted. Wise think alike.




> Why such a sermon to KK fans? Should i tell Lata fans to accept "as a
> matter of fact or grudgingly" that Lata is now besura beyond redemption
> (using Rajan P 's words). Nobody is de emphasising the importance of classical

Yes there is no doubt that Lata starting from 80's is past her prime
and in fact she should have called it a day in early 80's itself.

> training. But is it the only virtue which counts (according to KK bashers
> like you) in playback singing. By that account Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali
> khan is the best playback singer in film history leaving behind Lata
> and everybody :)

I have answered this in my other post.

arunabha_roy

unread,
May 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/23/97
to

>In article <5m343f$f...@drn.zippo.com>, Arunabha says...
>>

>Hi Arunabha,


> I cannot tell you how happy Ravi must have been after reading
>your post (which includes some very indirect and discreet KK bashing, in
>the garb of decent language :) ). Thanks for pointing out the 2 'decent'
>Rabindra Sangeet numbers. I wonder why Ray thought that they were 'perfectly'
>sung.
>
>
>
>
>

>Perhaps you could listen to a) Badi sooni sooni hai from Mili
>b) Woh shaam kuchch ajeeb thi from khamoshi
>c) Koi hota jisko apna from Mere Apne
>
>Just listing 3 more of KK's well sung 'serious' songs. It goes without
>doubt that KK bashing has become the rule of RMIM nowadays. The main
>reason for this is that the KLAN members are too busy to participate in
>such a debate. I would love to see Ravi and you argue it out with
>Rajan Parrikar (who has a 'complete' knowledge of classical), Ketan
>Dholakia, Anup Pandey, Arun Verma and Pradeep Dubey. Not only would this
>lead to a more lively debate but also a more informed one.
>

On the film line, I make no claims to be very well informed. I have some
knowledge of classical music, and so tunes with class. base appeal to me. However
that's only my opinion, and of course not evryone will think the same way. My
mistake in the previous post was the omission of IMHO before my statements.
With an IMHO, I would not have generated ill feeling, I suppose.
>
>>

>You are indirectly implying that Suresh Wadkar and Hariharan are 'better'
>singers than KK. Perhaps you could listen to "Kitni khubsoorat yeh
>tasveer hai" from Bemisal. Classical training cannot substitute for
>voice quality which is the BASIC and MOST IMPORTANT virtue of a singer.
>BTW the above mentioned song shows how your classically trained Suresh
>Wadkar fares against the classically 'zero' KK :-) and let me tell you
>that Suresh W is PATHETIC against KK in that song.
>

No, I make no comparison between the singers. If it's implied, it's unfortunate. Perhaps an IMHO will

>> While music is always a matter of personal taste, I think it is not going to
>>o far to say that KK has been overhyped. That he has won such adulation is partly owing to
>>some measure of his greatness, but the fact that he is compared with singers
>>whom he is not equal to in terms of vocal agility bespeaks of excessive adorati\
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Is this not your opinion :-) Somebody might find KK to be the best voice
>ever. You negate the very tone of your post with this assertion.
>

OK , I take it back. Agreed.

>>Possibly that too is a matter of personal taste, and the notion of being overhyped or not

>>too depends on the person.
>
>There you come back to the right track :-)
>
>> Personally while I do not appreciate KK much, I feel there sre songs
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

>This is a decent way of saying " I feel KK was shit, but since he is so
>popular, kya karen, i cannot openly say that he is shit" :))
>

:-) I AM a decent person ! :-)OK, let me clarify that, were the above, REALLY
my opinion, I would not hesitate to put it in no uncertain terms. Till some
time back, it was indeed. BUt my opinion of KK is currently undert review and reform.
My tastes change appreciably over time. Till three or four years back I was an
avowed Lata fan, but now i've switched compl. to Asha. I used to quite actively
participate in Asha -Lata flame wars in fact before some saint mellowed me down.

> which


>>he sang that others couldn't with the same effect (not perfection) , but also vice
>>versa. I think that Ravi has pointed out appropriately that while KK fans may adore his singing genius
>^^

>Why such a sermon to KK fans? Should i tell Lata fans to accept "as a
>matter of fact or grudgingly" that Lata is now besura beyond redemption
>(using Rajan P 's words). Nobody is de emphasising the importance of classical
>training. But is it the only virtue which counts (according to KK bashers
>like you) in playback singing. By that account Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali
>khan is the best playback singer in film history leaving behind Lata
>and everybody :)

OK, I take back the sermon. But surely no singer is perfect and capable of evry kind of song ?


>>
>
>How can it generate any negative sentiments in any other camp apart from
>KKklan since you have so decently indulged in KK bashing :) Before
>parting let me draw your attention to the last 2 lines of my previous
>post

:-) OK, just to balance out the account , I have indulged in negative comments re:

Rafi. (in light vein) . I repeat I do not subscribe to either of the two fan clubs,
and like/ dislike SPECIFIC songs sung by BOTH of them.

>=======================================================================
>>>My point is KK was a great singer. Whether he was the best depends on a
>>>person's individual choice. To call him "overrated" smells of extreme
>>>prejudice.

RNTSEN

unread,
May 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/27/97
to

The late Kishore Kumar, as everyone knows was a GREAT singer. If one
person adamantly refuses to acknoeledge that fact, does not take anything
away from KK's greatness; instead reflects poorly & sadly on the
dissenting person.

Cheers!!

Ikram Ahmed Khan

unread,
May 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/27/97
to

Arunabha, Roy wrote:
> I specifically DID compare them with Kumar Nasu though. Ithink
> there's no danger of clashing w/ a KS Klan here :-)

Actually, I have heard RaviK (him of the "KK great ? What bs" fame :) )
speak highly of KSanu. :) :) And there are others who think well of
him too. They have posted that on rmim too.... :)

{Thankfully I am one of the KSanu bashers... As proof of my credentials
I submit one of his latest transgressions - :)

In a recent song of his, he sings
" kurbaa ho jaaooN"
I kinda picked my head up on that - what exactly is kurbaa I wondered
And I found out the refutation to Pradeep Dubey's allegation of
KSanu being nasal. :) Even if I make allowance for him not being able
to pronounce the 'q' sound for 'qurbaan' or 'qurbaa.N', the omission
of the 'n' sound was especially grating on the ears....

Kinda like Suresh Wadkar singing ' ek gaao hai' instead of
'ek gaaNo hai' {trying to use Itrans notation here} :) :)


}
> However Sunio ji need not be the litmus test for playback singers
> today- the sure fire proof of this is singers like Alka Yagnik and Kumar
> Sanu.
> They have succeeded wiothout training . (That I personally hate their
> songs is a different matter, but as far as making it, they have succeeded)

On what are you claiming that Alka Yagnik is "without training"??
I have heard no such info .... ever....

Or is she becoming a casualty in the war of misinformation?? :)

Later,
Ikram.

Ravi Krishna

unread,
May 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/27/97
to

In article <338B0358...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...

>Actually, I have heard RaviK (him of the "KK great ? What bs" fame :) )
>speak highly of KSanu. :) :) And there are others who think well of
>him too. They have posted that on rmim too.... :)

Kumar Sanu has been needlessly bashed in RMIM by a set of people who just
couldn't digest the fact that he has blown up the demi-god status of Kishore
Kumar. When KK passed away in 1987 lot of people believed that there can't be
another KK for next 1000 years. Unfortunately (for them ) this myth hardly
lasted 1000 days.

I would always prefer KishoreK to KumarS but I would never go to the extent of
needlessly bashing KumarS . He deserves the enormous success he achieved.
As compared to Kishore he fails miserably in diction and of course
he is nasal too ( in most of his songs). But when he sings well he **REALLY**
sings well. There are times when he has cloned KK to near perfection. Some
examples:-

(a) Saathi tera pyaar doja hai ( from Insaaniyat - picturised on AmitabhB and
JayaP). In this song KS sounded almost same as the KK-Rajesh Roshan combo.
As readers would be knowing that KK use to sing in a different way for RR ,
the typical high pitch notes of RR. KS did exactly the same in this song.

(b) Songs from Zindagi ek Zua (AnilK and MadhuriD). The songs had typical
Prakash Mehra / Bappi Lahiri / Kishor Kumar touch and full credit to KS for
that.

I am not saying that the above two examples are of great music , it only
gives an example of good ability of KS to sing the way MD would like to.

As for a good ability of him listen to the song "whoh bi meine chori chori"
of "Dalal" starring Mithun and Ayesha Jhulka. It was sung by KavithaK and KS.
The song is a very intelligent note-to-note recyle of Lekin song "yaara silli
silli". (MD who else , but BappiL). I can't believe that KishorK would have
done a better job.

Actually I never rated KumarS that highly till I started reading RMIM and
observed that in RMIM KK has been highly overrated.

Ravi Krishna

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May 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/27/97
to

In article <338B0358...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...

>> However Sunio ji need not be the litmus test for playback singers


>> today- the sure fire proof of this is singers like Alka Yagnik and Kumar
>> Sanu.
>> They have succeeded wiothout training . (That I personally hate their
>> songs is a different matter, but as far as making it, they have succeeded)
>

>On what are you claiming that Alka Yagnik is "without training"??
>I have heard no such info .... ever....

There is no need to be 'actually' informed that AlkaY never got any training.
One can make out by listening to her songs. She has been around for more than
15 years and to date she is yet to sing one song which requires the ability
of a trained singer. MD's were never stupid to give her tough song for she
would have murdered it.

Amnongs singers of today only KavithaK has the ability to sings songs which
demands real ability. Anuradha Paudwal also has that ability but she is not
singing any songs at all these days.


thes...@mail.swbell.net

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May 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/28/97
to

Ravi babu ... I have been reading your KK bashing for a while now. Thats
fine, you're entitled to your own opinions (however outlandish they may
be). But actually vouching for KS's "similarity" to KK ? God man, what
did you smoke this morning ?


Cheers ..
Joi Kishore ! :)

Ikram Ahmed Khan

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May 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/28/97
to

Ravi Krishna wrote:

> There is no need to be 'actually' informed that AlkaY never got any training.
> One can make out by listening to her songs. She has been around for more than
> 15 years and to date she is yet to sing one song which requires the ability
> of a trained singer. MD's were never stupid to give her tough song for she
> would have murdered it.
>
> Amnongs singers of today only KavithaK has the ability to sings songs which
> demands real ability. Anuradha Paudwal also has that ability but she is not
> singing any songs at all these days.


Let me repeat -

On what are you claiming that Alka Yagnik is "without training"??
I have heard no such info .... ever....

Your answer seems to be that - hey, she hasn't sung a song with an
overtly classical base.

That answer is not good enuff. Tell me again why you claim
she is "without training". I know, for a fact, that she has undergone
training in hindustaani vocal singing. Heard it from the lady's mouth
during a TV interview.

Later,
Ikram.

Narendernath Miriyala

unread,
May 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/28/97
to

In article <5mfbap$q...@drn.zippo.com>, r_kr...@hotmail.com (Ravi
Krishna) wrote:

> Amnongs singers of today only KavithaK has the ability to sings songs which
> demands real ability. Anuradha Paudwal also has that ability but she is not
> singing any songs at all these days.

Recently, I read that Nadeem-Shravan recorded 17 songs with Anuradha.
Apparently, she is making a come back.

Naren

Bunty

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May 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/28/97
to

Hi Ravi,

R_>Amnongs singers of today only KavithaK has the ability to sings songs which
R_>demands real ability. Anuradha Paudwal also has that ability but she is not
R_>singing any songs at all these days.

Sadhna Sargam is a very talented singer. As well as Kavitha. The
problem with Sadhna is that she hardly ever sings, and when she does it
is usually not a hit song. Hense she does not get many offers.
Filmfare said that she sang really well in Prakash Jai's Mirtudand, and
it is her only first soundtrack were the MD's have exclusively picked
her to support the movie. I will have to comment on that when I hear
the songs, to see if she did a good job or not:-)

bunty

Raj

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May 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/28/97
to

You are abosultely right. KK was the greatest and the most versatile
singer of his time. He was a natural born singer. He will always remain
unparalleled. We will always miss his voice.....

Raj'

Ravi Krishna

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May 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/28/97
to

In article <338C3EBE...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...

>Let me repeat -
>
>On what are you claiming that Alka Yagnik is "without training"??
>I have heard no such info .... ever....
>
>Your answer seems to be that - hey, she hasn't sung a song with an
>overtly classical base.
>
>That answer is not good enuff. Tell me again why you claim
>she is "without training". I know, for a fact, that she has undergone
>training in hindustaani vocal singing. Heard it from the lady's mouth
>during a TV interview.

AlkaY can claim anything , no one is stoping her from that. Proof of pudding
is in eating. To date she has not not sung any one song which requires some
'real' ability on the part of singer la LataM , AshaB. It is very sad that
AlkaY has wasted her training in classical music. Tsk , Tsk , Tsk.

Ikram Ahmed Khan

unread,
May 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/29/97
to

Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> Ikram says...
>
> >Let me repeat -
> >
> >On what are you claiming that Alka Yagnik is "without training"??
> >I have heard no such info .... ever....
> >
> >Your answer seems to be that - hey, she hasn't sung a song with an
> >overtly classical base.
> >
> >That answer is not good enuff. Tell me again why you claim
> >she is "without training". I know, for a fact, that she has undergone
> >training in hindustaani vocal singing. Heard it from the lady's mouth
> >during a TV interview.
>
> AlkaY can claim anything , no one is stoping her from that. Proof of pudding
> is in eating.


"AlkaY can claim anything", huh?! Why do you believe that she is
only "claiming" this. Do you know more about AlkaY than she is letting
on? :) :)


> To date she has not not sung any one song which requires some
> 'real' ability on the part of singer la LataM , AshaB. It is very sad that
> AlkaY has wasted her training in classical music. Tsk , Tsk , Tsk.

Somehow, I don't believe that you really meant the "Tsk, tsk, tsk"
as being a sad state of affairs...

Later,
Ikram.
ps. Tomorrow, if I submit that the litmus test of a singer's
ability is to sing
"denewaala jab bhi deta, pooraa chhappaD. phaD. ke deta"
{ with all the swahili-like and chinese-like stanzas... there
were 4 of those. The song used to be on both sides of the
78 rpm records. :) }
poor Lata, AshaB, M. Rafi, M. Dey, KLS, PMallick will lose their claims
to greatness. After all, they haven't sung it... or to be more precise,
I am not aware of any recordings that they made of this song.
This would then prove KK as the greatest and the rest as "b.s." :)

Do you accept this line of reasoning?? :)

Raj

unread,
May 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/29/97
to

Ravi Krishna feels that he has a great knowledge of music. He has
compared Kishore kumar with Lata and calling Kishore the most overrated
singer of the century. I understand we are talking about hindi
playbacks. Ofcourse one needs a classical base to become a playback. But
according to him only classical singers can make the best of playbacks.
Imagine Bhimsen Joshi singing for Akshay Kumar or Pt. Jasraj singing for
Govinda ( Coolie no.1 ). Wow ??

Hats off to you Ravi Krishna ...


Anand Tiwari wrote:
>
> In article <8643393...@dejanews.com>, r_kr...@hotmail.com says...
> >
> >
> >
>
> Hi Ravi,
> You surprise me with every post on this topic. In the earlier
> post with the same title (except that KK was changed to AB) you said
> "nothing more to say" Obviously you tried to control your anger and were
> unable to do so as is evident in this post. :)

> Since you are so vehement in saying that KK did not know classical let
> me point it out that KK sung two Rabindra Sangeet numbers for satyjit
> Ray in his film "Ghare Baire". Now i do not know at what level you place
> Ray, but in ray's opinon those songs were 'perfectly' sung by KK (I am
> quoting "anandalok" the prestious Bengali film mag). Now Rabindra
> Sangeet is not the same as classical but i would love to see (i am using
> your words) how many singers whom you put in the "great category" would
> have sung it.

> You point out 2 songs from lekin which "you" consider the litmus test.
> How can you say KK could not have sung them? I mean what is the basis for
> this assumption. Also if classical singing makes a Hindi plyback singer
> best then i think Manna Dey should be your all time favourite.

> By your logic and arguement if a person knows classical he is a good
> singer and if he doesn't he is a bad singer. So why do we need film play
> back singers at all. there are many luminaries in the field of
> classical gayaki who according to your aruement can sing film songs.

> In the entire post by Kuldeep you had no point to hit out except the
> "classical" point. Why don't you for a change respond to his specific
> query where he quoted you as saying "KK ran away from songs which required
> better singing abilities". Even Chikalpati Jagadish had asked you on RAMLI
> to give an example where KK "ran away from a song" Why do you skirt the
> issue?

> I am not questioning your desire to nurture an extreme hatred for KK who
> was in commercial sense your idol Mohd Rafi's closest rival.

> Using your words: "Whether you accept it grudgingly or as a matter of
> fact" Kishore Kumar outdid Mohd Rafi in the '70s in terms of popularity
> and songs. No singer not Lata, not Mohd Rafi not Manna Dey could
> sing "Zindagi ek safar hai suhaana" the way KK did. They wouldn't
> even dare to attempt it. Should i put it as the litmus test, just as
> you quote the 2 beautiful numbers from "Lekin" and say KK could never
> sing them.

> A classical base is necessary for a playback singer , so say the pundits.

> KK made it big without that base on the strength of his inborn capabilities.
> He could compose, write lyrics, act. Which Playback singer has been able
> to achieve all those feats?

> My point is KK was a great singer. Whether he was the best depends on a
> person's individual choice. To call him "overrated" smells of extreme
> prejudice.
>

> regards
> Anand
>
> >You have just displayed your 'great' knowledge of music by the above
> >heroworshipping of the 'most overrated singer of the century' KK.
> >Before I go any further I would like you to listen to songs of Lata M in
> >the film Lekin (1991). Lata M was clearly past her best in 80's , yet she
> >was able to sing two very difficult (impossible by KK standards) songs.
> >The songs are:
> >
> >"suniyo ji araz hamari"
> >"kesariya baalma"
> >
> >I would consider the above two songs as a litmus test for any film
> >singer(there are other great songs also,but for starters this is enuf). I
> >would love to hear KK making a pathetic attempt in singing those 2 songs
> >with his not-so-great ability.

> >Please do not come up with standard lame excuses (typical of KK fans) that
> >LataM learnt classical music while KK didn't and hence he could not sing
> >classical songs. Who prevented KK from learning classical music and
> >sharpening his skills.
> >
> >No doubt KK was a fine singer and he could sing very well,provided all
> >songs were light and demanded no special ability on the part of singer.
> >This is an unpalatable truth which every KK fan has to accept, whether
> >grudgingly or as a matter of fact is left to the fan.
> >

> >-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

--
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______________________________________________

Ravi Krishna

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May 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/29/97
to

Raj wrote:
>
> Ravi Krishna feels that he has a great knowledge of music. He has
> compared Kishore kumar with Lata and calling Kishore the most overrated
> singer of the century. I understand we are talking about hindi
> playbacks. Ofcourse one needs a classical base to become a playback. But
> according to him only classical singers can make the best of playbacks.
> Imagine Bhimsen Joshi singing for Akshay Kumar or Pt. Jasraj singing for
> Govinda ( Coolie no.1 ). Wow ??
>
> Hats off to you Ravi Krishna ...

You are putting words in my mouth. I can understand your anger and
frustration. Since you can't prove that KK could sing any classical
based
song , you chose to flame me. Nice try. Keep trying.

PS: if only KK himself showed the same zeal to learn classical music ,
the way
you fans are showing zeal to defend him , I am sure he would have been a
much
better singer.


---------------------
S. Ravi Krishna
r_kr...@hotmail.com
---------------------

Raj

unread,
May 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/29/97
to Ravi Krishna

It's not anger or frustration Mr. Ravi Krishna. I am highly amused at
your "classical" knowledge. Your favourite "classical" singer is Mohd.
Rafi, Manna Dey ( atleast better than Rafi), Lata M, S.P. Bala and let's
see who else....ah! Yesudas(good) !!!! Is that all ? Well why did you
forget Bhupinder, Suresh Wadkar ? Bhupinder is an extremely talented
classical singer. Do you feel that they are not worth being mentioned.

Is you classical knowledge limited to Mohd. Rafi and Manna dey ? Bhimsen
Joshi, Pt. Jasraj, Kishori Amonkar, Parveen Sultana are all classical
singers. Are MR, MD, etc. more *Classical* than them ?


Kishore was a better bet for most MDs during his time. He was the most
sought after playback( maybe that's the reason why he was the highest
paid singer of his time). I am not out here to prove that Kishore could
not sing any classical song but that he was the greatest.

Ravi Krishna wrote:


>
> Raj wrote:
> >
> > Ravi Krishna feels that he has a great knowledge of music. He has
> > compared Kishore kumar with Lata and calling Kishore the most overrated
> > singer of the century. I understand we are talking about hindi
> > playbacks. Ofcourse one needs a classical base to become a playback. But
> > according to him only classical singers can make the best of playbacks.
> > Imagine Bhimsen Joshi singing for Akshay Kumar or Pt. Jasraj singing for
> > Govinda ( Coolie no.1 ). Wow ??
> >
> > Hats off to you Ravi Krishna ...
>

> You are putting words in my mouth. I can understand your anger and
> frustration. Since you can't prove that KK could sing any classical
> based
> song , you chose to flame me. Nice try. Keep trying.
>
> PS: if only KK himself showed the same zeal to learn classical music ,
> the way
> you fans are showing zeal to defend him , I am sure he would have been a
> much
> better singer.
>
> ---------------------
> S. Ravi Krishna
> r_kr...@hotmail.com
> ---------------------

--

Ravi Krishna

unread,
May 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM5/30/97
to

In article <338E1121...@cig.mot.com>, Raj says...

>
>It's not anger or frustration Mr. Ravi Krishna. I am highly amused at
>your "classical" knowledge. Your favourite "classical" singer is Mohd.
>Rafi, Manna Dey ( atleast better than Rafi), Lata M, S.P. Bala and let's
>see who else....ah! Yesudas(good) !!!! Is that all ? Well why did you
>forget Bhupinder, Suresh Wadkar ? Bhupinder is an extremely talented
>classical singer. Do you feel that they are not worth being mentioned.

Mr Raj , how long have been reading in RMIM. If you had read my postings in
RMIM , I have clearly acknowledged that Rafi himself was no great shakes in
classical songs , though much ahead of KK. I consider Rafi to be a better
allrounder than KK , and indeed Rafi has sung songs which are definitely
tougher than what KK has sung.
By classical I mean , those who can sing filmi classical songs. I never
intended to bring Bhimsen Joshi etc in this discussion bcos they are not
film singers. You are right about MannaD.I feel he was the best in male singers
for classical songs.
I did not intentionally excluded Bhupinder and SureshW from the list. I just
forgot about them. Sorry. As you said they are indeed fine singers for
classical based songs. However they also suffer from variety.

>Is you classical knowledge limited to Mohd. Rafi and Manna dey ? Bhimsen
>Joshi, Pt. Jasraj, Kishori Amonkar, Parveen Sultana are all classical
>singers. Are MR, MD, etc. more *Classical* than them ?

I have answered this before. If you really want to talk about pure classical
music , let's keep it to rec.music.indian.classical.


>Kishore was a better bet for most MDs during his time. He was the most
>sought after playback( maybe that's the reason why he was the highest
>paid singer of his time). I am not out here to prove that Kishore could
>not sing any classical song but that he was the greatest.

You can't prove that KK could sing filmi classical songs like others you
have mentioned. That according to me was his greatest limitation.

Kalpataru Barman

unread,
Jun 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/2/97
to

Ravi Krishna wrote:

> Raj wrote:
> >
> > Ravi Krishna feels that he has a great knowledge of music. He has
> > compared Kishore kumar with Lata and calling Kishore the most overrated
> > singer of the century. I understand we are talking about hindi
> > playbacks. Ofcourse one needs a classical base to become a playback. But
> > according to him only classical singers can make the best of playbacks.
> > Imagine Bhimsen Joshi singing for Akshay Kumar or Pt. Jasraj singing for
> > Govinda ( Coolie no.1 ). Wow ??
> >
> > Hats off to you Ravi Krishna ...
>

> You are putting words in my mouth. I can understand your anger and
> frustration. Since you can't prove that KK could sing any classical
> based song , you chose to flame me. Nice try. Keep trying.
>
> PS: if only KK himself showed the same zeal to learn classical music ,
> the way you fans are showing zeal to defend him , I am sure he would have
> been a much better singer.
>
> ---------------------
> S. Ravi Krishna
> r_kr...@hotmail.com
> ---------------------

This person, Ravi Krishna, sounds terribly confused and completely
ignorant about classical music.
Classical music is altogether a different branch of music ( Western,
Eastern whatever...).
KK,Rafi,Mukesh.Lata,Asha etc. ---- all these singers did not have a
career as classical vocalists , like Bhimsen Joshi,Kishori Amankar,
Bade Ghulam Ali, MS Subhalakshmi, M. Balamuralikrishna,
Rashid Khan, Ghulam Mustafa Khan,Pandit Jasaraj, Salamat Ali Khan etc.
They never fall under this category. They are the most popular
singers in hindi film industry, which is a different area.

Raj

unread,
Jun 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/2/97
to

I absolutely agree with you. We are talking about Playbacks and not
Classical music here. The playbacks are supposed to sing what the
situation demands and Mr. Ravi Krishna fails to understand that.

Kalpataru Barman wrote:
>
> Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> > Raj wrote:
> > >

> > > Ravi Krishna feels that he has a great knowledge of music. He has
> > > compared Kishore kumar with Lata and calling Kishore the most overrated
> > > singer of the century. I understand we are talking about hindi
> > > playbacks. Ofcourse one needs a classical base to become a playback. But
> > > according to him only classical singers can make the best of playbacks.
> > > Imagine Bhimsen Joshi singing for Akshay Kumar or Pt. Jasraj singing for
> > > Govinda ( Coolie no.1 ). Wow ??
> > >
> > > Hats off to you Ravi Krishna ...
> >

> > You are putting words in my mouth. I can understand your anger and
> > frustration. Since you can't prove that KK could sing any classical
> > based song , you chose to flame me. Nice try. Keep trying.
> >
> > PS: if only KK himself showed the same zeal to learn classical music ,
> > the way you fans are showing zeal to defend him , I am sure he would have
> > been a much better singer.
> >
> > ---------------------
> > S. Ravi Krishna
> > r_kr...@hotmail.com
> > ---------------------
>
> This person, Ravi Krishna, sounds terribly confused and completely
> ignorant about classical music.
> Classical music is altogether a different branch of music ( Western,
> Eastern whatever...).
> KK,Rafi,Mukesh.Lata,Asha etc. ---- all these singers did not have a
> career as classical vocalists , like Bhimsen Joshi,Kishori Amankar,
> Bade Ghulam Ali, MS Subhalakshmi, M. Balamuralikrishna,
> Rashid Khan, Ghulam Mustafa Khan,Pandit Jasaraj, Salamat Ali Khan etc.
> They never fall under this category. They are the most popular
> singers in hindi film industry, which is a different area.

--

Ravi Krishna

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Jun 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/2/97
to

In article <33925E...@mail-me.com>, Kalpataru says...

>
>This person, Ravi Krishna, sounds terribly confused and completely
>ignorant about classical music.
>Classical music is altogether a different branch of music ( Western,
>Eastern whatever...).
>KK,Rafi,Mukesh.Lata,Asha etc. ---- all these singers did not have a
>career as classical vocalists , like Bhimsen Joshi,Kishori Amankar,
>Bade Ghulam Ali, MS Subhalakshmi, M. Balamuralikrishna,
>Rashid Khan, Ghulam Mustafa Khan,Pandit Jasaraj, Salamat Ali Khan etc.
>They never fall under this category. They are the most popular
>singers in hindi film industry, which is a different area.


Nowhere did I ever equate film singers with classical singers.
I only mentioned film singers who have learnt classical music so that they have
an ability to sing songs based on classical music. I thought it was pretty
clear. It just confirms my suspicion that KK fans are becoming desperate.

Vijay Raghavan

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Jun 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/2/97