Gujar Jaaye din: Lyrics ?
Ranjan Biswas
Hi,
Does anyone have the lyrics for 'Gujar Jaaye Din' by Kishore
(film Annadata, music Salil C) ? I couldn't find it in ISB.
How are the other songs from this film ?
Thanks,
- Ranjan.
PS : I heard this song at somebody's place over the weekend and
... just went crazy ...
ravi_krishna
> Ranjan says...
> Does anyone have the lyrics for 'Gujar Jaaye Din' by Kishore
> (film Annadata, music Salil C) ? I couldn't find it in ISB.
> How are the other songs from this film ?
> ... just went crazy ...
Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that Kishore, considered by many
'knowledgable' music fans as the greatest singer, had to take an amazing 18
retakes to complete this song.
This song is a very very tough song. I had great respect for Kishore for singing
this song so well till I came to know about 18 retakes. Now that explains how
KK was able to sing that song. 18 retakes tsk tsk tsk.
-- RaviK.
PS: To the best of my knowledge Lata never took more than a couple of retakes to
complete a song , however tough it may be.
Ashok
In article <61j7ag$f...@drn.zippo.com>, RaviKrishna says...
>
>> Ranjan says...
>> Does anyone have the lyrics for 'Gujar Jaaye Din' by Kishore
>> (film Annadata, music Salil C) ? I couldn't find it in ISB.
>> How are the other songs from this film ?
>>PS : I heard this song at somebody's place over the weekend and
>> ... just went crazy ...
>
>Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that Kishore, considered by many
>'knowledgable' music fans as the greatest singer, had to take an amazing 18
>retakes to complete this song.
>
>This song is a very very tough song. I had great respect for Kishore for singing
>this song so well till I came to know about 18 retakes. Now that explains how
>KK was able to sing that song. 18 retakes tsk tsk tsk.
Why are you tsk-tsk-ing persistence?
>
>-- RaviK.
>
>PS: To the best of my knowledge Lata never took more than a couple of retakes to
> complete a song , however tough it may be.
She is supposed to have had an awful time singing "o bastanti pavan paagal", used
in 'Jis Desh Mein Ganga Bahti Hai" for Shankar-Jaikishan. I haven't read about the
incident, but was told by knowledgeable friends that she got close to tears in
frustration.
Rafi's difficulty with Salil Chowdhury's "tasveer teri dil me.n" has been mentioned
often enough on RMIM.
Here is an excerpt from an earlier article by Surjit Singh, which looks at search
for perfection differently:
-----------
bhakta suurdaas
Another excellent movie by Saigal. Has many of his famous
bhajans. One is madhukar shyaaam hamaare chor, another is
maiyyaa morii mai.n nahi.n maakhan khaayo. His younger
brother Mahendra Saigal was Krishan in the movie and his
voice can be heard saying "suurdaasaji" in the song, nis din
barasat nain hamaare. He recorded the song, nainahiin ko
raah dikhaa prabhu, 14 times, but still not satisfied with
his performance, cried openly and bitterly. After a while he
gained his composure and recorded what turned out to be
nothing less than a masterpiece. While reporting on this
incident in an article in Listeners' Bulletin, Har Mandir
Singh writes, echoing every music-lover's sentiments, "san-
giit saadhanaa kaa aisaa tapasvii phir kab milegaa."
-------------
I don't know whether Kishore had the autonomous drive for excellence of the
same degree, but in any case, difficulties experienced by an artist of long
standing in any challenging endeavour do not reflect badly on him/her.
Ashok
ravi_krishna
In article <61jj5s$t...@drn.zippo.com>, anand....@prairiecomm.com says...
>Hi Ravi,
>
>I am not comparing Lata and Kishore, simply stating the facts. You are
>right Kishore required 17 retakes to record this song. However the
18 not 17.
>important thing which you have missed in your post is Salil Chaudhry's
>comment after the song was recorded, "Only Kishore could have
>sung it/done justice to it". This has been stated on RMIM and perhaps
>Pradeep Dubey can post the comment as spoken by Salil Chaudhry.
Very true. When this song was recorded in early 70's only Kishore could have
done justice to it as Rafi was past his prime.
>What interests me is Why Kishore required 17 retakes for this song.
>I know what your answer is, but seriously will Rajan or Pradeep or
>somebody who has knowledge about music explain what is so
>difficult about "Guzar jaaye din". I am really baffled. What is so tough
>about this song, where lies the challenge in this song, what was Salil
>Chaudhry looking for in this song that it required 17 retakes?
Myself and my friend (he plays keyboard very well) use to replicate this song
in keyboard and found the song to be very tough to play in keyboard. One had
to listen to the interludes (antra's) and the way it merges back to the
prelude (mukhda). Sheer magic by Salilda.
As for 18 retakes only Salilda can explain it.
BTW this is one of those rare Kishore songs which no clones (Kumar Sanu ,
Abhijit ) dares to attempt in their so called tribute to Kishore.
Kishore has done a commendable job in singing this song but I can't digest his
18 retakes. A singer of his class should have done in lesser retakes, if at
all retakes was necessary.
Rafi too has tons of problem in Tasavir teri dil mein. He took 11 retakes and
even the final version did not satisfy Salilda. He was forced to accept it
as Lata was getting bored. Amazing how Lata did not have any problem.
-- RaviK.
PS: Anand , this is not the first time I have seen you mentioning RajanP and
Pradeep Dubey as knowledgable in music. What a curious conincidence that
both are Kishore fans to boot. You seem to think that those who know music
should rate Kishore high.
PPS: I have nothing against Rajan and Pradeep , in fact I do appreciate their
knowledge of music. I only want to point out Anand's bias.
Vallury Prabhakar
In article <61j7ag$f...@drn.zippo.com>, <Ravi Krishna> wrote:
>
>Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that Kishore, considered by many
>'knowledgable' music fans as the greatest singer, had to take an amazing 18
>retakes to complete this song.
Takes a special kind of idiot (and Ravi Krishna does seem special) to put
all of the alleged retakes on Kishore Kumar's head. It's not at all possible
that some/many/all of these retakes could've been screwups by the accompaniment
sections? I take it that you were standing there - headphones, metronome and
all - taking copious notes. 'cuz if you were not, then I just wish you'd
keep your asinine generalities and holier-than-thou critique styles to yourself.
Wishful thinking, I know, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
Also, do let me know the names of all the numerous CDs that you've composed/
arranged/performed - it would be a warm, fuzzy feeling to know that at least
YOU have put all your knowledge about the limitations of each and every
musical performer to good use.
Cheers,
-- VP
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
= Vallury Prabhakar Office: [810] 771-2447 =
= val...@sunrise.stanford.edu Home: [810] 947-2288 =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjeev Kumar
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
> Very true. When this song was recorded in early 70's only Kishore
> could have done justice to it as Rafi was past his prime.
What is this talk about Rafi being past his prime in early 70s?
Have you just stepped out of your mind? So if we sounded great
in 'Karz' or for that matter in "John Johnny Janardhan" of "Naseeb"
which was in early 80s, it means he staged a comeback!
How can anybody tolerate this piece of BS going around in the ng!
> Kishore has done a commendable job in singing this song but I can't
> digest his 18 retakes. A singer of his class should have done in
> lesser retakes, if at all retakes was necessary.
So god-damn-it-what! KK would be turning over in his grave just because
you don't happen to digest his 18 retakes! Have you ever realized how
difficult it is get the right kind of emotion, feelings and right
tune to sing a song. In some interview of this well-known singer,
P.B.Srinivas, he mentioned that once he had to sing a beautiful
romantic song (in Kannada - "Ravivarmana kunchada") when his mother
had died a couple of days before and that he couldn't get the right
tune/raaga/shruthi, leave alone the emotions in a romantic song.
When we come up with the final product do we always get dissappointed
just because it had go thru a umpteen number of compilation cycles!
> Rafi too has tons of problem in Tasavir teri dil mein. He took 11
> retakes and even the final version did not satisfy Salilda. He was
> forced to accept it as Lata was getting bored. Amazing how Lata did
> not have any problem.
That makes Rafi a better singer than KK is it? Rafi just took 11 where
KK took 18 for the same MD.
And on that day when Rafi was taking retakes after retakes,
did you happen to be around just to notice Lata complaining about
getting bored? Then you must be probably making notes of every
noteworthy events happening on that day! This reminds me of a scene
from KHKN where the Don's assistant keeps making notes, when the
Don (Goga Kapoor) says, "Likho mat, feel karo"! May be you should've
felt it too!
Sanjeev
anand....@prairiecomm.com
In article , Ravi says...
>
>PS: Anand , this is not the first time I have seen you mentioning RajanP and
>Pradeep Dubey as knowledgable in music. What a curious conincidence that
>both are Kishore fans to boot. You seem to think that those who know music
>should rate Kishore high.
>
>PPS: I have nothing against Rajan and Pradeep , in fact I do appreciate their
>knowledge of music. I only want to point out Anand's bias.
Hi Ravi,
In this case there was no bias. Reason's for using Pradeep's and Rajan's
name is simple. I have met Pradeep and know his phenomenal knowledge
about Salil Chaudhry songs. About Rajan, i have read his posts over a
long period of time and even though i may or may not agree with his musical
preferences i am in awe of his knowledge. This particular song involved Salil
and
Kishore and to the best of my best knowledge Rajan and Pradeep
would be the best people to put my questions to. They know
the techniques of Salil and Kishore inside out. So there was no bias.
If i ever have a doubt about a Mukesh song the most obvious person
to ask would be Preeti and if it comes to Rafi, i would put in the
names of Abhay and Sami.
Your views on Kishore prompted me to think that you hate him so much that
you shall not be able to give me an objective answer (which you gave)
otherwise the question was directed at you too as was the whole post.
So once again no bias.
regards
Anand (a Kishore Kumar fan, forever)
Ketan
In article <343E44...@lucent.com>, Sanjeev says...
>
>Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>>
>> Very true. When this song was recorded in early 70's only Kishore
>> could have done justice to it as Rafi was past his prime.
>
>What is this talk about Rafi being past his prime in early 70s?
>Have you just stepped out of your mind? So if we sounded great
>in 'Karz' or for that matter in "John Johnny Janardhan" of "Naseeb"
>which was in early 80s, it means he staged a comeback!
Both Karz and Naseeb were in the late 70's. Rafi died in 1980. Karz won the
1979 FF music award. AFAIR, Karz only had ONE Rafi song, which hardly qualifies
as calling it a comeback. And are u actually saying Rafi sounded great in Karz?
I suggest you listen more carefully to the thickness of his voice again. Yes, he
still sounds good, but definitely not the Rafi of earlier days.
>How can anybody tolerate this piece of BS going around in the ng!
Is this a rhetorical question? If it is, the answer is --" the same way we
tolerate tons of other BS on this ng". Do you have any different or special
methods? Do share them with us. :)
>> Kishore has done a commendable job in singing this song but I can't
>> digest his 18 retakes. A singer of his class should have done in
>> lesser retakes, if at all retakes was necessary.
>
>So god-damn-it-what! KK would be turning over in his grave just because
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I doubt it. When reports last reached me, HE was cremated. Kinda makes it
difficult to do the above mentioned form of "New-Age exercises" after one has
been reduced to ashes, wot? Even if he was buried, I doubt if he would be
turning. More like de-composing. (pun intended) :)
>you don't happen to digest his 18 retakes! Have you ever realized how
>difficult it is get the right kind of emotion, feelings and right
>tune to sing a song. In some interview of this well-known singer,
My dear fellow, if people did realize all this, do you think the continuing
popularity of KK and RDB would cause them this much indigestion?
>P.B.Srinivas, he mentioned that once he had to sing a beautiful
>romantic song (in Kannada - "Ravivarmana kunchada") when his mother
>had died a couple of days before and that he couldn't get the right
>tune/raaga/shruthi, leave alone the emotions in a romantic song.
Speaking of which, in an interview I read of Rafi's family, his son mentioned
how Rafi did not need to put on any emotions for the song "Babul ki duvaeen leti
jaa", since just 2 days prior to the recording, he had actually married off his
own daughter. Very well sung.
>When we come up with the final product do we always get dissappointed
>just because it had go thru a umpteen number of compilation cycles!
>
>> Rafi too has tons of problem in Tasavir teri dil mein. He took 11
>> retakes and even the final version did not satisfy Salilda. He was
>> forced to accept it as Lata was getting bored. Amazing how Lata did
>> not have any problem.
>
>That makes Rafi a better singer than KK is it? Rafi just took 11 where
>KK took 18 for the same MD.
Since you are "asking" and not "telling" I take it you don't think Rafi better
than KK, right? I fully agree with you. Notice Salil's comment about the
Annadata song--"Only KK can do this song any justice". Rafi was not even
considered. :)
>And on that day when Rafi was taking retakes after retakes,
>did you happen to be around just to notice Lata complaining about
>getting bored? Then you must be probably making notes of every
>noteworthy events happening on that day! This reminds me of a scene
Kind of a similar to what I had asked on 26th April 1996 when the same issue
regarding the same song was discussed. I had said...
{
begin original post
Do we know why it took 18 takes?? Was that mentioned in the Times of India or
Filmfare? Maybe it was the recording engineer, who kept tripping over the
wires, or maybe it was the flute player who instead of playing the flute was
shooting seeds out of the instrument at the violin player with whom he had a
personal animosity,
end original post
}
According to Naushadsaab, in the 30's amd 40's due to the lack of good recording
equipment and facilities, singing actors like Saigal's songs were actually
recorded alongwith the actual shooting of the scene with a mike suspended above
the actors head just out of camera range. This meant that the singers/orchestra
had to rehearse the song to perfection and only then would the scene be shot.
With the introduction of better and more sohisticated recording/mixing
capabilites, it definitely allowed the musician to record the songs using
various options. Example : The Beatles song "Strawberry Fields Forever" has been
recorded at 3 different speeds, each speed having certain different instruments,
and then the final song has been put together, with verse 1 from the recording
at speed # 1, verse 2 from speed # 2, and the final instrument section from
speed # 3. I suspect (with my meagre knowledge) that this is exactly what ARR
has done, with "Awara bhavren" from Sapnay. Hema Sardesai does not go 'besura'
but there seems to be a change in the pace/pitch between the mukhdaa and antara.
Quite possibly ( and this is only a theory), ARR recorded the song with her
singing at 2 diff pitches, and mixed them imperfectly (and maybe deliberately).
{Credit for this theory should go to Chetan Vinchhi)
So, is there any song that RMIMers know of that was recorded on the first take
itself? Don't rehearsals count as takes too? I refer to the same EMI company
that releases all these Hindi songs. In their terminology their releases last
year of the Beatles "takes" are nothing but them rehearsing in some cases,
adjusting the pitch here, the voice there, controlling the flow of the guitar
viz-a-viz the drums etc. Any thoughts anyone?
In article <61ljp4$2...@drn.zippo.com>, Ravi says...
>Another day , another excuse by a 'musical' genius.
What's yours, O learned one? :)
>KK can never make a mistake, blame it on others.
Or the opposite in your opinion, right? Tsk tsk tsk indeed! Oops, sorry Ashok,
for tsk tsking this persistence too. :)
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
U.V. Ravindra
Ketan wrote:
>
> Speaking of which, in an interview I read of Rafi's family, his son
> mentioned how Rafi did not need to put on any emotions for the song
> "Babul ki duvaeen leti jaa", since just 2 days prior to the
> recording, he had actually married off his own daughter. Very well
> sung.
I have heard the same thing said of this song in a Vishesh Jayamala
by Naushad. He mentioned not only that, as Ketan says, Rafi had
married his daughter off 2 days before the recording, but also that
as he reached the end of the recording, Rafi's eyes welled up with
tears (presumably) because he was recalling each and every moment of
his daughter's "bidaai". By the time the song was recorded, the
tears were actually streaming down Rafi's face! Interesting? More
interesting is the fact that Rafi offered to re-record the song
(saying that his voice had perhaps faltered a little too much as
he was crying), but the MD refused the offer and retained the original
recording as it was. One can hear Rafi's voice shaking more and more
with emotion as the song reaches the end.
Regards,
Ravindra.
ravi_krishna
> anand....@prairiecomm.com says...
>Hi Ravi,
>
>In this case there was no bias. Reason's for using Pradeep's and Rajan's
>name is simple. I have met Pradeep and know his phenomenal knowledge
>about Salil Chaudhry songs. About Rajan, i have read his posts over a
>long period of time and even though i may or may not agree with his musical
>preferences i am in awe of his knowledge. This particular song involved Salil
>and
Thanks for the clarification.
>Kishore and to the best of my best knowledge Rajan and Pradeep
>would be the best people to put my questions to. They know
>the techniques of Salil and Kishore inside out. So there was no bias.
>If i ever have a doubt about a Mukesh song the most obvious person
>to ask would be Preeti and if it comes to Rafi, i would put in the
>names of Abhay and Sami.
>
>Your views on Kishore prompted me to think that you hate him so much that
>you shall not be able to give me an objective answer (which you gave)
>otherwise the question was directed at you too as was the whole post.
>So once again no bias.
I don't hate KK. I just don't rate him as great , atleast not as great as
Lata, Asha , Rafi and SPB ( in south songs).
-- RaviK.
ravi_krishna
>Have you just stepped out of your mind? So if we sounded great
>in 'Karz' or for that matter in "John Johnny Janardhan" of "Naseeb"
>which was in early 80s, it means he staged a comeback!
Rafi sounding great in Karz and Naseeb. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
You take the cake. I don't want to debate any further.
>So god-damn-it-what! KK would be turning over in his grave just because
>you don't happen to digest his 18 retakes! Have you ever realized how
>difficult it is get the right kind of emotion, feelings and right
>tune to sing a song.
Another day , another excuse.
>When we come up with the final product do we always get dissappointed
>just because it had go thru a umpteen number of compilation cycles!
This is a different issue.
>That makes Rafi a better singer than KK is it? Rafi just took 11 where
>KK took 18 for the same MD.
I never said that. It's for you to interpret.
>And on that day when Rafi was taking retakes after retakes,
>did you happen to be around just to notice Lata complaining about
>getting bored? Then you must be probably making notes of every
>noteworthy events happening on that day! This reminds me of a scene
>from KHKN where the Don's assistant keeps making notes, when the
>Don (Goga Kapoor) says, "Likho mat, feel karo"! May be you should've
>felt it too!
Instead of questioning me why don't you read Raju Bharatan's book on Lata
where he had mentioned the 11 retakes of Tasvir teri dil mein. He clearly
mentioned that Lata was getting annoyed and bored with retakes. Remember in
those days technology was not advanced for singers to record seperately.
-- RaviK.
PS: do you have a habit of reading.
ravi_krishna
>rus...@groucho.Stanford.EDU says...
>Takes a special kind of idiot (and Ravi Krishna does seem special) to put
>all of the alleged retakes on Kishore Kumar's head. It's not at all possible
>that some/many/all of these retakes could've been screwups by the accompaniment
>sections? I take it that you were standing there - headphones, metronome and
>all - taking copious notes. 'cuz if you were not, then I just wish you'd
>keep your asinine generalities and holier-than-thou critique styles to
>>yourself.
Another day , another excuse by a 'musical' genius. KK can never make a mistake,
blame it on others.
-- RaviK.
U.V. Ravindra
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
> You insist on provoking me.
Hey, come on, Ravi. Calm down! :)
> > How can you write Rafi off just
> >like that. He is GOD and is ageless! Period. Let's not argue.
>
> Hey wait a minute. You think I am anti Rafi. I am a great fan of
> Rafi and you can read my postings in RMIM. You obviously is not well
> versed with postings of one and only Ravi Krishna.
:)) "One and only" you are! Most RMIMers would agree with that :)
> What I want to say is that KK fans come up with creative excuses to
> not put the blame on KK for 18 retakes. This according to me speaks
> of extreme intolerance and high degree of fanatism.
... you mean, while Rafi's 11 retakes of "tasveer teri dil mein" are
blamed squarely on Rafi's shoulders by KKKlaners? Well, isn't that
what fanatics always do? :))
Ravindra.
I actually like this :))
Sanjeev Kumar
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
> Rafi sounding great in Karz and Naseeb. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
> You take the cake. I don't want to debate any further.
People have different tastes. Everybody need not have the same taste
as you do (I'd be long dead if I had). How can you write Rafi off just
like that. He is GOD and is ageless! Period. Let's not argue.
> Another day , another excuse.
Please clarify whatdayamean by this! You riddler or what!
>
> >That makes Rafi a better singer than KK is it? Rafi just took 11 where
> >KK took 18 for the same MD.
>
> I never said that. It's for you to interpret.
It was supposed to be a sarcastic comment and also the way you putforth
your views. I forgot to add some :).
> Instead of questioning me why don't you read Raju Bharatan's book on
> Lata where he had mentioned the 11 retakes of Tasvir teri dil mein.
> He clearly mentioned that Lata was getting annoyed and bored with
> retakes. Remember in those days technology was not advanced for
> singers to record seperately.
And you believed that word-to-word as the extreme truth in life!
Please educate me about Raju Bharatan. (I don't read FAQs).
Ever heard Rafi's side of the story too. I bet you wouldn't've
believed it even if it was the truth.
Sanjeev
> PS: do you have a habit of reading.
Do you always talk like this? Gosh! You are one helluva guy to talk to.
You'd beat Howard Stern hollow when it comes to throwing insults!
You sure know your way around.
ravi_krishna
In article <61lpja$o...@drn.zippo.com>, Ketan says...
>>Another day , another excuse by a 'musical' genius.
>
>What's yours, O learned one? :)
Excuse me, I am not giving any excuse for 18 retakes. It is KK fans who are
giving.
>>KK can never make a mistake, blame it on others.
>Or the opposite in your opinion, right? Tsk tsk tsk indeed! Oops, sorry Ashok,
>for tsk tsking this persistence too. :)
KK normally does not need retakes to complete a song. However he took 18
retakes for this song. Also this was one of the toughest song of KK ( IMO
his toughest song). How come for only this song KK had to take **SO** many
retakes. Too much of a coincidence.
-- RaviK.
kalyan
In article <343E9A...@infogain.com>, "U.V. says...
>
>Ketan wrote:
>>
>> Speaking of which, in an interview I read of Rafi's family, his son
>> mentioned how Rafi did not need to put on any emotions for the song
>> "Babul ki duvaeen leti jaa", since just 2 days prior to the
>> recording, he had actually married off his own daughter. Very well
>> sung.
Icche ki hocche, Ketan? (Is my attempt at Gujrati correct? :) )
Are you sure you don't want to lose your klan membership? :)
Norwithstanding the sentiments that had welled up inside Rafi while singing
this song, I find this song to be ordinary. e.g compare it with Mukesh's
classic: "O jaanewale" from Bandini or "Chal ri sajni" from Bambai ka baabu.
Mukesh's voice brings out the dard very effectively. To bring out the same
feeling Rafi has to resort to crying. That (I mean crying) is quite common
in a large number of sad songs by Rafi. There are exceptions as always but
I don't think this song is one of them.
I find that a big chunk of Rafi songs in late 40's and early
50's to be in this category (sad + crying) when he was employed
primarily by the MD's from North-West (or Punjab) like Shyam Sunder,
Naushad, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Ghulam Mohd etc. I think Rafi vastly
added to his repertoire working with MD's like OPN, SDB etc. I feel
he really reached his peak in the mid to late 50's and stayed there
for about a decade.
Regards,
Kalyan
ps: As usual, #include <std_imho.h>
Venugopal Iyer
hi,
I would not read very much into Raju Bharathan's articles, since, I have
read quite a few by him. He writes quite regularly for 'Screen', and
sometimes in 'The Afternoon'. He has this tendency to extol the subject of
his article to ridiculous extent, while downplaying others in the same
category. The same is true whether he writes about singers or cricketer's.
I have read the same author mention that Salil Choudray was extremely
displeased with rafi for the song 'Thoote hue Khwabon ne" from madhumati.
But, I have also heard Salil Choudray (in an interview) mention that only
rafi could have sung the songs in Maya. Such extreme views makes one doubt
the credibility of Raju Barathan's articles. As for the biography that
RB wrote on lata, there was little or no input from lata herself, as about
the same time Harish Bhimani (if I remember the name right) was involved in
the same task (the official biography, according to lata). In one of the
articles titled 'King of the Ragas' (in The Afternoon) RB had enumerated
some Kishore songs which were based on classical music, and hence awarded
the title to kishore (which I felt was farfetched by any standard, no
offense meant).
As for the quality of rafi's voice, it can never be doubted (40's or 80's).
If an article by RB could influence such thoughts on rafi's competence, then
how should one interpret Sajjad Hussein, who was called a genius by many,
including Madan Mohan (in fact when Madan Mohan was asked why he "lifted"
Sajjad Hussein's music for the rafi song 'Tuje kya sunahun mein dilruba tere
samne mera haal hai" from the talat song "yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandini",
Madan retorted by saying that he was "proud" to do that), when he terms
talat as "galat" mahemood and kishore as "shor" kumar??.
I guess every MD's has his idiosyncrasies, and this in no way can be
judgmental on the capabilities of any singer. It was disgusting to read O P
Nayyar (in an interview) mentions that rafi was thrown out (same words used)
by OPN when he arrived late to the recording studio, when, according to me,
OPN owes many hits , and his raise to stardom in parts, to rafi. Anil
Biswas, hemant kumar and RDB were not far behind in using rafi sparingly, in
fact i read an article which mentions about a song that rafi had to sing for
Anil Biswas. Rafi had prepared himself to impress the maestro, but, for some
reason AB delegated the responsibility to C Ramchandra (his assistant at
that time), only to have the song re-recorded at a later time, by a diff.
singer. RDB, in his own words, mentions that, in his first movie (Teesri
Manzil) he was about to be replaced by SJ, when Rafi and Minoo Khartik (song
recordist) assured RDB that they would record the song 'Oh Hasina Zulfon
wali' in one take to impress the producer, and this this did the job for RDB
(Shammi was very impressed). Inspite of this RDB always favoured kishore to
rafi (in fact in Andhi, I was suprised when all (good) solos/duets were
given to kishore, while rafi was given a group song (joined in by bupinder
singh and amit kumar). This prompts one to think about the bias of MD's from
Calcutta against Rafi, which by itself forms a topic for discussion.
Rafi was, by far, the most versatile singer of all times, and no other
singer comes anywhere close to his singing abilities. Kishore, Mukesh, Talat
and Manna Dey were undoubtedly great singers (with kishore having an edge
over the others), but, if any music director was asked by a producer to
select a singer without giving him a clue about any aspects of the film, my
guess is, in 9 out of 10 cases, Rafi would be the first choice.
Venu
( a rafian)
ravi_krishna
> Sanjeev says...
>People have different tastes. Everybody need not have the same taste
>as you do (I'd be long dead if I had).
You insist on provoking me.
> How can you write Rafi off just
>like that. He is GOD and is ageless! Period. Let's not argue.
Hey wait a minute. You think I am anti Rafi. I am a great fan of Rafi
and you can read my postings in RMIM. You obviously is not well versed with
postings of one and only Ravi Krishna.
>> Another day , another excuse.
>Please clarify whatdayamean by this! You riddler or what!
What I want to say is that KK fans come up with creative excuses to not put the
blame on KK for 18 retakes. This according to me speaks of extreme intolerance
and high degree of fanatism.
>It was supposed to be a sarcastic comment and also the way you putforth
>your views. I forgot to add some :)
If that's the way you think , fine.
>And you believed that word-to-word as the extreme truth in life!
>Please educate me about Raju Bharatan. (I don't read FAQs).
>Ever heard Rafi's side of the story too. I bet you wouldn't've
>believed it even if it was the truth.
Raju Bharatan (he writes about cricket too) has written a biography on Lata.
I read part of it in 1995. IIRC he didn't mention Rafi's story about that song.
>Do you always talk like this? Gosh! You are one helluva guy to talk to.
>You'd beat Howard Stern hollow when it comes to throwing insults!
>You sure know your way around.
You provoked me first.
-- RaviK.
ravi_krishna
In article <343ECE25...@email.uc.edu>, Venugopal says...
> This prompts one to think about the bias of MD's from
>Calcutta against Rafi, which by itself forms a topic for discussion.
Venugopal I also thought about the same. In fact in the last RMIM meet I
mentioned this to Kalyan. (Kalyan can vouch for this).
Anil Biswas went to the extent of saying that Rafi lacks refinement. :-(
-- RaviK.
Ketan
In article <61lr3u$t...@drn.zippo.com>, Ravi says...
>>>Another day , another excuse by a 'musical' genius.
>>
>>What's yours, O learned one? :)
>
>Excuse me, I am not giving any excuse for 18 retakes. It is KK fans who are
>giving.
Sigh! I thought you would understand, but here it goes again---What's your
excuse? In other words-- "And your point is...?"
>>>KK can never make a mistake, blame it on others.
>>Or the opposite in your opinion, right? Tsk tsk tsk indeed! Oops, sorry Ashok,
>>for tsk tsking this persistence too. :)
>
>KK normally does not need retakes to complete a song. However he took 18
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is that an assumption or a definitve statement? Maybe you are right, but if so
how do you know? Who told you of this? Were you KK's closest confidant? Do you
have any facts to support your statement or is this a case of your having sound
knowledge--more sound than knowledge in this case. If it can be thus proved that
Lata/Asha/Rafi did indeed need retakes, would you then accept that KK is far
better than any of them?
>retakes for this song. Also this was one of the toughest song of KK ( IMO
>his toughest song). How come for only this song KK had to take **SO** many
>retakes. Too much of a coincidence.
Oh what a serendipitious discovery. :) Only you could have found out the
relation/coincidence in something that is tough to master, and someone needing
18 attempts to master it. Man, are we remaining RMIMers dumb or what?
In article <61lurq$c...@drn.zippo.com>, Ravi says to Sanjeev......
>What I want to say is that KK fans come up with creative excuses to not put the
>blame on KK for 18 retakes. This according to me speaks of extreme intolerance
>and high degree of fanatism.
And does the intolerance and fanaticism bother you? Tell us how we can reduce
your botheration. :) BTW, isn't it a case of the pot calling the kettle black?
Fanaticism and intolerance work in likes and dislikes.
>Raju Bharatan (he writes about cricket too) has written a biography on Lata.
>I read part of it in 1995. IIRC he didn't mention Rafi's story about that song.
Was Raju Bharatan there during the recording? Has he asked Salil, Lata or Rafi
for their opinions? I must say you have presented a very convincing case so far.
>>Do you always talk like this? Gosh! You are one helluva guy to talk to.
>>You'd beat Howard Stern hollow when it comes to throwing insults!
>>You sure know your way around.
>
>You provoked me first.
Oh how mature! Henceforth could you please make your postings with a rating
system--like in the movies. Let's see now--PG13 would mean for people 13 or
below. :)
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
ravi_krishna
In article <61m6b9$e...@drn.zippo.com>, Ketan says...
>Is that an assumption or a definitve statement? Maybe you are right, but if so
>how do you know? Who told you of this? Were you KK's closest confidant? Do you
>have any facts to support your statement or is this a case of your having sound
>knowledge--more sound than knowledge in this case. If it can be thus proved
>>that
>Lata/Asha/Rafi did indeed need retakes, would you then accept that KK is far
>better than any of them?
Couple of things about KK:-
according to many MD's he is very quick to grasp the tunes unlike Rafi who
I believe needs some time to understand the tune.
Many MD's are on record to say that it is very rare to see KK needing a
retake. ( I have heard LP , KA , RDB ). Of course the quality of tunes has
something to do with it and precisely that's the reason why the number of
retakes can't be used as a yardstick to compare KK with Lata Asha.
>Oh what a serendipitious discovery. :) Only you could have found out the
>relation/coincidence in something that is tough to master, and someone needing
>18 attempts to master it. Man, are we remaining RMIMers dumb or what?
Looks like 18 retakes is really irritating you.
>And does the intolerance and fanaticism bother you? Tell us how we can reduce
>your botheration. :) BTW, isn't it a case of the pot calling the kettle black?
I admit it is. Hey is that not RMIM all about. KK fanatics vs KK bashers.
>Was Raju Bharatan there during the recording? Has he asked Salil, Lata or Rafi
>for their opinions? I must say you have presented a very convincing case so
>>far.
I have enuf reasons to believe that RB's version of Tasveer teri dil mein
is quite accurate. Of course cynics can always doubt it.
BTW would have you bothered to argue with me if KK needed just 5 retakes.
-- RaviK.
Prince Kohli
kalyan writes:
|>
|> I find that a big chunk of Rafi songs in late 40's and early
|> 50's to be in this category (sad + crying) when he was employed
|> primarily by the MD's from North-West (or Punjab) like Shyam Sunder,
|> Naushad, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Ghulam Mohd etc. I think Rafi vastly
|> added to his repertoire working with MD's like OPN, SDB etc. I feel
I will let others comment about the quality of Rafi songs which
were sung for MDs like HusnLal-BhagatRam, Naushad et al. Me, I
am different - I like them quite a bit. Anyway, the point you
attempted to make above re: Punjabi vs. non-Punjabi MDS - does
it not kind of negate itself as OPN was also a Punjabi? Or is
your statement actually this "Rafi in the 40s used to cry in his
songs, IYHO, and later, even though he had other Punjabi MDs, he
did not? So it was the 'fault' of those 'bad' MDs and not exactly
where they were from." So it's a matter of the era rather than the MDs?
Or, and this is getting interesting, were there no MDs in the
"late 40s and early 50s" who were not from the Northwest and
whom Rafi could have approached to "vastly add to his repertoire,"
as happened later according to you? If there were such MDs, then
why were they not willing to teach Rafi the arts which only they,
the non-NWestern ones, knew about? Maybe this was nepotism of
a sort as Rafi was also a NWestern Indian.
Also, where does Anil Biswas fall in this discussion? Is he also
not an MD of the period in which you consider Rafi's sad songs to
be below par?
This is a very interesting thread btw, Kalyan.
-Prince
Anand Tiwari
In article , Ravi says...
>
>
>
>
>
>-- RaviK.
Hi Ravi,
Looks like you love to extrapolate things. Don't know what Ketan thinks but
it does not matter to me if any singer, Manna, Hemant, Rafi or Kishore takes
x number of retakes as long as the final product is melodious. Even if
KK took 100 retakes for "Guzar Jaaye Din" it does not take anything away
from the final recorded version.
Let me remind you of a couple of things you said about RMIM being all about
Kishore bashers v/s Kishhore loyalists. Don't you find this statement extremely
short sighted and myopic? I know you have a one point agenda , to run
down Kishore and that is fine because that is the way you are, but are you
not extrapolating that the entire RMIM community shares your view (KK
basher's v/s KK Loyalists)
You even took a "Bhishm Partigya" (your words) that you will not post on
KK. You generalize people as "KK fans can stoop to such and such level"
(your words in an earlier post when you had heated exchange with Raj
and another gentleman). So if a person is a KK fan, he is low and demeaning.
If somebody is a KK fan then he should not show any enthusiasm about
Kishore's singing just because you, Ravi Krishna think that Kishore was
uesless.
Time and again you have brought comparison's in a thread where there
were none. Ok for you Lata, Asha ,Rafi are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KK.
Fine. What else do you have to say?
You are obsessed with running down Kishore Kumar. The problem is that
even if you climb on top of Sears Tower and scream out that he was the
worst singer India has produced, it is not going to change facts about
his popularity. You cannot change history. So why don't we hear criticism
from you, which does not of smell of prejudice. Why does every post of your's
smack with disregard for fellow RMIMer's opinions. Don't you think there
is a better way for you to express what you feel about any topic or is it
that you are obsessed with being the "one and only one" or do you really
get a kick out of abusing people who do not agree with you or have
a different taste than you have?
Also two people may be Kishore Kumar fans and they may be entirely
different in all other respects. So please refrain from using sweeping
statements about "Kishore fans being this and that." It is in extremely
bad taste.
It also seems that you have some "regional agenda" against Bengali music
director's (and maybe against Bengali's themselves, who knows). This in
my opinion would be a corrupting influence on a group like RMIM.
All i have to say to you is Live and let live.
Anand (who is amazed by how much hatred one person can nurse for another)
PS: Knowing Ravi over an year on the net, i know i have committed
something which is called in Hindi as "Aa bail mujhe maar",
Gautam Choudhury
It's not really fair to judge KK on that. This grammer of this song is such
that anybody would find it difficult to sing. Try for yourself to sing this
song without any accompaniment.
The reason is that it changes keys (scale) half way and our Indian singers
(whether it's KK/Lata/Rafi or anybody) are neither trained nor used to sing
in that fashion.
Guzar jaaye din uses staright chord progression in several keys. If you can
play piano then you can quickly see that Salil used several keys to
construct the song. Once you know the these chords, it's quite simple,
really.
The musicians who played in the orchestra, had a great time. They still do.
That's because we must learn the 'western instruments', like guitar, synth
etc in the western style and hence learn about chords, keys etc. For an
experienced guitar player, for example, Salil's music is wonderful, because
he quickly finds the most creative way Salil used the western grammer to
compose a simple Indian song. Ask any instrumentalist who has played or
plays Salil's songs now. You must know some theory before you start playing
his songs.
But it's wonderful....when you find out. It's a completely different world.
Gautam
Ravi Krishna wrote in article <61j7ag$f...@drn.zippo.com>...
> > Ranjan says...
> > Does anyone have the lyrics for 'Gujar Jaaye Din' by Kishore
> > (film Annadata, music Salil C) ? I couldn't find it in ISB.
> > How are the other songs from this film ?
> >PS : I heard this song at somebody's place over the weekend and
> > ... just went crazy ...
>
> Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that Kishore, considered by many
> 'knowledgable' music fans as the greatest singer, had to take an amazing
18
> retakes to complete this song.
>
> This song is a very very tough song. I had great respect for Kishore for
singing
> this song so well till I came to know about 18 retakes. Now that
explains how
> KK was able to sing that song. 18 retakes tsk tsk tsk.
>
Kalyan
In article <61mkbj$gc1$1...@murrow.corp.sgi.com>, pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com says...
>
Relax, Prince :) I don't know how and where you get the impression that
I am talking against Punjabi MD's and you are putting words in my mouth. I have
nothing against Punjabis or Punjabi MD's. If fact those who recollect
my earlier posts or RJGK 32 can see how highly I regard the MD's I had
listed there. The words I used were were "MD's from North-West (or Punjab)"
By the classification I was referring to the distinct style of the MD's
who had worked earlier in the Lahore film industry or had been influenced
by them. They had a typical style in the tunes, orchestra etc. Some of
the stalwarts in this category are Ghulam Haider, Firoze Nizami etc. A number
of them are referred to by Vish in the classic articles of Noorjehan and
Lata. Some other MD's in that mould IMO are Shyam Sunder, Naushad,
Husnlal-Bhagatram, Ghulam Mohd, Pt. Amarnath etc.
Then there were the MD's from Bengal like Pankaj Mullick, Anil Biswas,
RC Pal, RC Boral, S.D. Burman etc. They had a different style and were
influenced by Rabindra sangeet, Nagrul geet(sp?) etc. These composers
brought about a lot of orchestral innovations particularly Anil Biswas.
If I am not mistaken these composers held sway in the 30's and regained
it in the 50's while those from the North-west were dominant in the 40's
and most of them faded in the 50's as they couldn't adapt to the changing
times.
These are my impressions and could be debated but the general distinction
in styles in these categories of MD's had been generally accepted. Note
that my classification was based on musical style and not on where the
MD was born or what his mother-tongue was. OP Nayyar who started in 1952 (or
53?) had his own unique style and cannot be clubbed with the MD's mentioned
earlier just because he was a Punjabi.
Please don't try to give a regional twist to musical issues. That IMO is fit
for SCI, not RMIM.
As for the MD's Rafi sang for in his early years I can write about it in
detail later as currently as I am swamped with work (and hence my
infrequent posts off late).
Here is what I wrote and meant in brief. I mentioned that Rafi rise to
the top was gradual and that his earlier output was not as wide-ranging
in terms of style, type of songs, song genres etc. And that he was largely
used by MD's from the North-west. And a large number of those songs were
sad songs. No connection or implication was made. I don't know how Prince
concluded all that he did from my post.
Let's look at some other MD's from that period.
CR - That he didn't think highly of Rafi is well known. His favorites in early
50's were clearly Talat and himself among male singers. Of course a bulk of
his o/p in that period was with Lata.
Roshan - Preferred Mukesh and Talat in early and mid 50's and switched to
Rafi later.
SDB - Not a big user of Rafi till after mid 50's. Used Hemant, KK, Manna
and Talat more.
Anil Biswas - This has been discussed to death.
Salil - Again rarely used Rafi in the 50's.
Rafi, meanwhile was getting better at others categories of songs like fun songs,
ghazals etc and was much better at putting feelings and emotions into his
singing. Who was responsible? I don't know but I guess it had a lot to do
with experience. That IMO made him the clear favourite of most MD's and
enabled him to stay at the top for well over a decade.
I will be able to be more elaborate with song and movie examples
once my workload eases and I get some time. Also others can add to it and
hope this thread doesn't become a regional flame war.
Regards,
Kalyan
of musical style
Prince Kohli
<Kalyan> wrote:
>
>Relax, Prince :) I don't know how and where you get the impression that
>I am talking against Punjabi MD's and you are putting words in my mouth. I have
I am not putting any words in your mouth. You said:
>listed there. The words I used were were "MD's from North-West (or Punjab)"
Which is all I am holding you to. Nothing more, nothing less.
>Note
>that my classification was based on musical style and not on where the
>MD was born or what his mother-tongue was. OP Nayyar who started in 1952 (or
Not according to what you wrote before or above.
>53?) had his own unique style and cannot be clubbed with the MD's mentioned
>earlier just because he was a Punjabi.
I should have thought that the first part was obvious. However, your earlier
statement was to effect of that Rafi's sad songs for MDs from the NW/Punjab
were of the crying variety. Your words, not mine, before you try to retract them
again. Thus, if you did not mean mother tongue, then you must have meant the
region. Either way, OPN is the counterexample to your hypothesis.
>Please don't try to give a regional twist to musical issues. That IMO is fit
>for SCI, not RMIM.
Oh please! Don't first go around bringing regionalism in and then get on
your high horse when someone catches you at it! If you wish to discuss the
regional effect on an MD's music, RMIM is the place. But you have to have
the stomach and the belief.
>used by MD's from the North-west. And a large number of those songs were
>sad songs. No connection or implication was made. I don't know how Prince
>concluded all that he did from my post.
Here is what you wrote:
>>|> I find that a big chunk of Rafi songs in late 40's and early
>>|> 50's to be in this category (sad + crying) when he was employed
>>|> primarily by the MD's from North-West (or Punjab) like Shyam Sunder,
>|> Naushad, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Ghulam Mohd etc. I think Rafi vastly
>|> added to his repertoire working with MD's like OPN, SDB etc. I feel
What other implication (than the one I noticed) is there, pray tell?
<rest of the irrelevancies deleted>
-Prince
Kalyan
In article <61mkpa$9...@drn.zippo.com>, Ravi says...
>
>In article <343ECE25...@email.uc.edu>, Venugopal says...
>> This prompts one to think about the bias of MD's from
>>Calcutta against Rafi, which by itself forms a topic for discussion.
>
>mentioned this to Kalyan. (Kalyan can vouch for this).
Well, I can vouch for that:) Also IIRC you mentioned that the
reason for their bias was that he was a Muslim. Maybe you
should get together with Prince to resolve why exactly they
were against him - his being a Punjabi or his being a Muslim :)
Kalyan
Prince Kohli
<Kalyan> wrote:
>
>Well, I can vouch for that:) Also IIRC you mentioned that the
>reason for their bias was that he was a Muslim. Maybe you
>should get together with Prince to resolve why exactly they
>were against him - his being a Punjabi or his being a Muslim :)
And maybe Kalyan can then inform us all why he insists on
passing off his ignorant ingenuous regionalistic views as mine?
Of course, what he could also do is defend his position rather
than scurrying away at the first sign of trouble, but then that
is not the Kalyan we have come to know.
Or maybe there are "anonymous, knowledgable and respected"
netters he knows (as always!) who agree with his views in private
and will only tell him so?
-Prince
Kalyan
In article <61pks3$sgk$1...@murrow.corp.sgi.com>, pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com says...
>
>Here is what you wrote:
>
>>>|> I find that a big chunk of Rafi songs in late 40's and early
>>>|> 50's to be in this category (sad + crying) when he was employed
>>>|> primarily by the MD's from North-West (or Punjab) like Shyam Sunder,
>>|> Naushad, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Ghulam Mohd etc. I think Rafi vastly
>>|> added to his repertoire working with MD's like OPN, SDB etc. I feel
>
>What other implication (than the one I noticed) is there, pray tell?
Here is what I had said:
a- Rafi worked mostly with MD's from North-west or Punjab in his early years.
b- A big chunk of his songs were of sad and crying variety. It was stated
nowhere that these were only with the MD's from the North-West.
c. Rafi vastly added to his repertoire working with MD's like OPN, SDB etc.
These were three independent stmts and no connection was implied. Let's
see what you concluded (I am using your own words). My comments start
with <kk>.
***begin quotes
Or, and this is getting interesting, were there no MDs in the
"late 40s and early 50s" who were not from the Northwest and
whom Rafi could have approached to "vastly add to his repertoire,"
as happened later according to you? If there were such MDs, then
why were they not willing to teach Rafi the arts which only they,
the non-NWestern ones, knew about? Maybe this was nepotism of
a sort as Rafi was also a NWestern Indian.
kk> I didn't mention anywhere that Rafi's sad songs were only with
NW MD's. And I didn't imply any nepotism whatsoever. Your imagination
seems to be working overtime.
However, your earlier statement was to effect of that Rafi's sad
songs for MDs from the NW/Punjab were of the crying variety
kk> Can you point to where I said that. You are mixing two different stmts.
Anyway, the point you attempted to make above re: Punjabi vs.
non-Punjabi MDS - does it not kind of negate itself as OPN was
also a Punjabi?
kk> First of all there was no point about Punjabi vs non-Punjabi MD's.
Can you see that anywhere in my original post? And secondly I was
talking of late 40's and early 50's when OPN hadn't entered the
industry.
Either way, OPN is the counterexample to your hypothesis.
<kk> And can you quote my words as to where I offered such a hypothesis.
*** end quotes
If you are intent on being delusional and paranoid I can't help you there.
I am clear in my heart that I didn't imply anything that you claim I did.
Also FYI, the term NW MD's has been commonly used to refer to the style
of music that came from the Lahore film music. e.g it was used by Vish
and Preetham in the west coast meet. You surely don't want to accuse
them of being anti-Punjabi. And BTW, North-West doesn't refer
to Punjab alone. You might be hurting the feelings of NW'erners who
are not Punjabis :)
To concluded let me direct your attention to one of your own quotes
from an earlier post that is relevant in the context of misunderstanding.
*****
>>In the past, we had Rajan Parrikar, obnoxious bugger, who will
>>bring in sexual innuendoes into any dicussion.
>
>Curious use of an indecorous word here (might be a term of
>endearment among buddies in Public Schools, but ia also a
>homophobic word in the United States) in a setence meant to be
>critical of sexual allusions! But, more importantly, is that the
Deliberate misunderstanding? Bugger is also a word used to
refer to people in a slightly ridiculing manner. To think it
always carries sexual connotations is a matter for the reader
to decide and imagine.
***
Thus, as to what I really meant, I leave it as "a matter for the reader
to decide and imagine."
Regards,
Kalyan
Kalyan
In article <61r2gj$ihs$1...@murrow.corp.sgi.com>, pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com says...
>
>Or maybe there are "anonymous, knowledgable and respected"
>netters he knows (as always!) who agree with his views in private
>and will only tell him so?
It seems to me that all of Prince's ire is directed at me because I
dared to disagree with him (in an email) when his fight with Ashok and Anil
was going on. I disagreed with his hypocrisy and double standards on the
issue of flame mails and it looks like he has been looking for an
excuse to get back at me. Prince, shouldn't we conduct our non-musical
exchange off-line.
Thanks,
Kalyan
ps: And I hope the next time you attempt to chastise someone with
your holier-than-thou posts you will look back at the vicious personal
attacks, slander and unprovoked flames that you have been indulging in
the recent past.
Prince Kohli
<Kalyan> wrote:
>In article <61r2gj$ihs$1...@murrow.corp.sgi.com>, pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com says...
>>
>>Or maybe there are "anonymous, knowledgable and respected"
>>netters he knows (as always!) who agree with his views in private
>>and will only tell him so?
>
>It seems to me that all of Prince's ire is directed at me because I
>dared to disagree with him (in an email) when his fight with Ashok and Anil
>was going on. I disagreed with his hypocrisy and double standards on the
That's rich, Kalyan. The 'fight' with Ashok is long over and done with,
and you are still in ferment over it though you were never even slightly
involved. As for you disagreeing with me, I thought you were actually
agreeing with me that abuse on the net is bad, and whoever it comes
from should be chastised! All our emails were friendly, and I have
no idea why you suddenly have this notion that they were not.
Anyway, I really have no feelings towards you of either like, dislike
or even curiosity. If you wish to believe that you are important enough
for me to actually go to the trouble of "getting back at you" for some
imagined crime you committed, then consider yourself disillusioned.
>issue of flame mails and it looks like he has been looking for an
>excuse to get back at me. Prince, shouldn't we conduct our non-musical
>exchange off-line.
Non-musical? I thought that the issue that MDs from a certain region
had Rafi singing in a certain style is very musical. You have to sincerely
believe in it though and thus discuss it rather than hurriedly back-pedalling.
>ps: And I hope the next time you attempt to chastise someone with
>your holier-than-thou posts you will look back at the vicious personal
yada yada yada. First learn what holier-than-thou means and then bother
using it.
>attacks, slander and unprovoked flames that you have been indulging in
>the recent past.
And the relevance to this thread of this silly attempt to change the issue?
Facts, as always, are appreciated, rather than childish insults.
-Prince
Chetan Vinchhi
Anand Tiwari wrote:
>
> it does not matter to me if any singer, Manna, Hemant, Rafi or Kishore takes
> x number of retakes as long as the final product is melodious. Even if
> KK took 100 retakes for "Guzar Jaaye Din" it does not take anything away
> from the final recorded version.
One valid point could be that even *after* 18 retakes,
the final product is ordinary. Let's say that after 37
retakes, Kishore does a Saigal (ref. Ashok's mention of
his wonderful recording of "nain hiin ko raah dikhaa"
after several attempts with which he was dissatisfied).
Then you can commend the effort. In the current song, even
after so many attempts he does not seem to be comfortable.
He makes mistakes, runs out of gas in bits and sounds
harsh is bits. BTW, do we know for a fact that Salil
finally used the 19th attempt? Just curious!
> You are obsessed with running down Kishore Kumar. The problem is that
> even if you climb on top of Sears Tower and scream out that he was the
> worst singer India has produced, it is not going to change facts about
> his popularity.
Actually, Ravi's method is far more effective. It is unlikely
that the few who could hear him up there would even care for
this issue :)
C
Prince Kohli
Kalyan writes:
|> In article <61pks3$sgk$1...@murrow.corp.sgi.com>, pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com says...
|> >
|> >Here is what you wrote:
|> >
|> >>>|> 50's to be in this category (sad + crying) when he was employed
|> >>>|> primarily by the MD's from North-West (or Punjab) like Shyam Sunder,
|> >>|> Naushad, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Ghulam Mohd etc. I think Rafi vastly
|> >>|> added to his repertoire working with MD's like OPN, SDB etc. I feel
|> >
|>
|> Here is what I had said:
|>
|> a- Rafi worked mostly with MD's from North-west or Punjab in his early years.
|>
|> b- A big chunk of his songs were of sad and crying variety. It was stated
|> nowhere that these were only with the MD's from the North-West.
|>
|> c. Rafi vastly added to his repertoire working with MD's like OPN, SDB etc.
|>
|> These were three independent stmts and no connection was implied. Let's
Let's get this discussion back to where I had meant it to be, when I had
believed that you had done some research on Rafi's early career and came
across that unknown gem of information. Also, contrary to what you parsed it
as, I was (and still am) willing to take your opinion on its face value
and would have just asked to submit two different forms of proof - first,
resolve the apparent contradiction that OPN was from the NW but still
did not make Rafi "cry," and second, some examples of what you label as
"crying" in Rafi's sad songs.
As for the above attempt of yours to break up your single statement into
three disjointed ones with no connection to be inferred to one-another --
we will just ignore it and assume no prejudice on anyone's part. If that's
OK with you, of course.
So, if I understand your restated position correctly, you believe that
Rafi, in the late 40s and early 50s, spoiled sad songs by "crying." You
also believe that Rafi sang most of his songs for MDs from the NW (as they
apparently outnumbered others at the time) in that era, but that these facts
have nothing to do with each-other. Thirdly, Rafi improved his sad-singing
later when he was employed by other MDs such as OPN, SDB, etc.
Since I happen to be interested in this point of view (and we will ignore
your second belief as that has no relevance to the issue, as you yourself
claim above), I will appreciate it if you could forward a cogent argument
to defend it. Beginning with examples, but hopefully not confined to just
those.
|> Also FYI, the term NW MD's has been commonly used to refer to the style
|> of music that came from the Lahore film music. e.g it was used by Vish
|> and Preetham in the west coast meet. You surely don't want to accuse
|> them of being anti-Punjabi. And BTW, North-West doesn't refer
I have not accused anyone of being anti-anyone. You made a claim which
I nicely asked you to resolve the contradiction in. You then started
take pot shots at me in unrelated threads and called me regionalistic etc.
Anyway, all that is unimportant. As for the west coast meet (I was there
too, if you remember), the concept of MDs from a certain region having a
certain style of composition is not very suprising, but it is still intriguing.
I found the notion interesting then and I find it interesting now. However,
I would like to hear a nice treatment of the topic rather than tossing
tid-bits gathered from elsewhere. If you cannot do it, maybe you can
request Vish and Preetham?
Oh, and also, I can accuse Vish and Preetham of anything I want to, starting
with "readers who should write much more often."
-Prince
Kalyan
In article <61tpnl$opn$1...@murrow.corp.sgi.com>, pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com says...
>
>Let's get this discussion back to where I had meant it to be, when I had
>believed that you had done some research on Rafi's early career and came
>across that unknown gem of information. Also, contrary to what you parsed it
>as, I was (and still am) willing to take your opinion on its face value
>and would have just asked to submit two different forms of proof - first,
>resolve the apparent contradiction that OPN was from the NW but still
>did not make Rafi "cry," and second, some examples of what you label as
>"crying" in Rafi's sad songs.
>
>Rafi, in the late 40s and early 50s, spoiled sad songs by "crying." You
>also believe that Rafi sang most of his songs for MDs from the NW (as they
>apparently outnumbered others at the time) in that era, but that these facts
>have nothing to do with each-other. Thirdly, Rafi improved his sad-singing
>later when he was employed by other MDs such as OPN, SDB, etc.
>
>Since I happen to be interested in this point of view (and we will ignore
>your second belief as that has no relevance to the issue, as you yourself
>claim above), I will appreciate it if you could forward a cogent argument
>to defend it. Beginning with examples, but hopefully not confined to just
>those.
>
I will try to do that in the next few days, time permitting.
Just to clarify, when I first read your initial response I perceived
the tone as being hostile and the misunderstanding to be deliberate
and I overreacted after (perhaps mistakenly) linking it to the earlier
email exchange which I too thought was friendly. On re-reading your
initial response and my post and talking with friends I realized that
my post could have been interpreted the way you did though it was not
meant that way. My apologies for the unpleasantness.
Regards,
Kalyan
ravi_krishna
In article <34429D...@pa.dec.com>, Ranjan says...
>As others have mentioned in the thread - there could have been numerous
>reasons for retakes.
Oh yeah.
First you wrote:-
> And Salil Choudhury being strict in general, wanted
>every iteration to be more perfect than the previous one.
Then you wrote:-
> And who knows
>whether the last one was the best or not ? May be the 14th recording was
>made final...
Does it make any sense. If Salilda was indeed satisfied with the 14th retake
why go till 18th version.
-- RaviK.
Ranjan Biswas
Well, I fell like jumping in at this point. I had asked for the lyrics
of
this song and haven't seen the lyrics yet. Pradeep Dubey mailed me last
Friday mentioning that he has posted the lyrics, but I am not seeing it
-
probably my server doesn't get frequent updates. But the discussion has
taken a different turn altogether. I received one mail mentioning
another
great song from Annadata - "Champavati tu aaj".
Well Rajan P. feels this is not a complicated number at all, rather a
"straightforward" piece. I do NOT think its a simple and easy number.
Changes from major to minor and vice-versa is something very trivial
nowadays and is present in many songs. Using both "ga"s, "ma"s, "dha"s
and
"ni"s (that is using both the natural and flattened 3rd, 4th(augmented),
6th
& 7th notes of the scale) is no more a challenge. And this doesn't
require a
background in Indian Classical at all. (Don't want to bring Indian
Classical
into this thread. This is not a classical song and Salil C definitely
didn't
get inspired by any rAga before writing this). Specially for Salil C,
varying
between major and minor is a kids play. But altering the scale is
something
different and thats something which puts singers in trouble. Typically
scale changes in a song are done with the help of some interlude music
or with the help of some instrument playing a little phrase, which
starts
in the original scale of the song and ends in a different scale and
"cues"
/"hints" the singer with this new scale (and probably starting note) -
and
then the singer assumes this different pitch and continues. Then again
(in most cases) the pitch is brought back to the original either by the
singer (tune of the song itself) or by (instrumental) music. In this
case,
the stanza is in a different pitch (and is brought to this pitch by a
simple chord sequence - strumming four chords on acoustic guitars along
with
a bass). The stanza shifts one whole note below the original scale
(moves
from F# to E, to be precise). As the stanza progresses, there are
'phrases'
which gives a 'feeling' that the scale is changing again. The stanza
is resolved beautifully again by two chords C#7 and F#m, and this puts
the
melody back in the scale of F# and makes it a "perfect" cadence.
There is bengali composition of Salil Choudhury, sung by Hemant -
"shono,
kono ekdin" - which changes scale every time it goes into the stanza.
The
first recording of this song doesn't have any interlude music - there's
wonderful orchestral backing though, but the scale shift is woven into
the tune of the song and doesn't get "helped" by instruments. And the
best
thing is - it never returns back to the original scale ! There are two
stanzas; the song starts in F and ends in A (moving from F->G->A), a
whole
note in every stanza). Gautam Choudhury mentioned that Hemant could
never
sing this song live (on stage) as he wasn't comfortable playing the
harmonium in three keys fluently. Anyway, such is the genius of Salil
Choudhury...
As others have mentioned in the thread - there could have been numerous
reasons for retakes. And Salil Choudhury being strict in general, wanted
every iteration to be more perfect than the previous one. And who knows
whether the last one was the best or not ? May be the 14th recording was
made final...
- Ranjan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rajan P. Parrikar wrote:
>
> In article <01bcd669$dca8ee60$24d4...@sparc1.cybercomm.nl>, "Gautam says...
> >
> >It's not really fair to judge KK on that. This grammer of this song is such
> >that anybody would find it difficult to sing. Try for yourself to sing this
> >song without any accompaniment.
> >The reason is that it changes keys (scale) half way and our Indian singers
> >(whether it's KK/Lata/Rafi or anybody) are neither trained nor used to sing
> >in that fashion.
> >Guzar jaaye din uses staright chord progression in several keys. If you can
> >play piano then you can quickly see that Salil used several keys to
> >construct the song. Once you know the these chords, it's quite simple,
> >really.
>
> I fail to see the basis for all the hoopla about the alleged complexity of
> this composition. It is fairly straightforward albeit tricky in a couple of
> places due to the rapid transition from the 'minor' to the 'major' chord. If
> Kishore Kumar really did require 17 takes of the song I would suggest that
> people look for reasons other than complexity of this number. There can be
> any number of reasons for multiple retakes.
>
> Some brief general comments:
> Jumping in and out of melodies featuring rapid changes in major and minor chord
> progressions is not a feat foreign to musicians well-trained in the Indian
> tradition, although the procedure itself may not be cast in the same language
> and terminology. The hybrid rAgas of Hindustani music, for instance, require
> enormous concentration and ability and depth of training. Nor are rapid scale
> changes (murchhAnAs, as they are called) unheard of in Indian music. In terms
> of melodic complexity we have not much to learn from Westerners and everything
> to teach them. Western melodic themes in and of themselves are rather "simple"
> and "naive" compared to Indian melodic structures. It is only when the Western
> music composer brings to bear their harmonic devices on the melodic theme
> (such as the fugal treatment, introduction of the canon, counterpoint etc) that
> the overall piece assumes great complexity (and in the hands of great masters
> such as Bach such complexity doesn't compromise on the beauty of the piece).
>
> Regards,
>
> r
Rajan P. Parrikar
>Well Rajan P. feels this is not a complicated number at all, rather a
>"straightforward" piece. I do NOT think its a simple and easy number.
Which means I need to elaborate.
From the composers' (Salil Chaudhary) perspective this is a clever,
non-trivial composition. But it need not be (and is not) from the delivery
perspective. The trick in this number is essentially the shift in scale in the
antarA. Once the singer has latched on to the change (and if I recall correctly
there is a nice cue provided by the major chord on the guitar) and sensed
the madhyam of the 'original' Sa where the antara begins (the new Sa itself
is translated 'backwards' to the komal nishad, if memory serves me right)
he is all set- the rest of the tune flows naturally, yet another internal
scale change in the following line of the antarA notwithstanding. The other
trick is to return to homebase but this is easier since the tailend of
the antara hovers on the rishab of the 'original' Sa (the asthAie Sa) and
all that is needed is a slip further down a semitone to the komal gandhAr
of the base Sa. The bottomline: Cleverness in composition need not necessarily
tranfer to the delivery. In fact, my admiration of Salil here is that while
the internal 'machinery' is rather involved, he had rendered the final product
user-friendly. There is also another sense in which the number is straightforward:
all the transitions are from point-to-point linear, there no much 'curvature' in
the tune.
Somehow, when I think of SalilC's amazing technical wizardry, his vast melodic
imagination and his ability to surprise you when you least expect it,
this number is not one that comes to mind. In other words, I wouldn't use this
composition as an example to make the point of Salil Chaudhary's creative genius.
Regards,
r
Ranjan Biswas
Well Ravi, it does make sense. Every retake of a song is intended
for improvement (on some aspect), right ? But that might not always
happen. It may be that the accordian player goofed up somewhere,
or the mixing wasn't upto the mark, or even KK was not at his best
- could be anything (not debating on that). But the studio cannot
go on re-recording the same track due to budget/time/resource/?...
constraints, and they have to limit somewhere. Then in that case,
the music director has to decide which of the existing "18"
versions goes out of the door, after weighing all the elements in
each. In short, "every retake need not be better than the previous
one" - that's all I wanted to say.
- Ranjan.
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
> In article <34429D...@pa.dec.com>, Ranjan says...
>
> >As others have mentioned in the thread - there could have been numerous
> >reasons for retakes.
>
> Oh yeah.
>
> First you wrote:-
>
> > And Salil Choudhury being strict in general, wanted
> >every iteration to be more perfect than the previous one.
>
> Then you wrote:-
>
> > And who knows
> >whether the last one was the best or not ? May be the 14th recording was
> >made final...
>
Pradeep Dubey
Hello,
RMIM is garm-aa-garam again but so is my work-pressure :-(
koi lauta de mere beete hue din ...
Here are the lyrics again, I didn't see my own posting so far
and neither did I find anyone else's which addresses the request
from Rajan with which it all began.
guzar jaayen din din din
ki har pal gin gin gin
kisiki haaye yaadon mein
kisiki haaye baaton mein
kisi se mulakaaton mein
ki ye silsile, jab se chale
khwaab mere, ho gaye rangeen
rahe na dil bas mein ye
na maane koi rasmein ye
ki khaaon main to qasamein ye
unhen hai pataa ...
ki jag chaahe roothe ye
ki jag chaahe chhote ye
naata nahin toote ye haaye
aa guzar jaayen ...
kabhi ye mera man chaahe
phoolon ke jahan ho saayen
jahan pe har dil gaaye
dhun pyaar ki ...
zamaane chaahe ho jaayen
vahin pe jaake so jaayen
vahin pe jaake kho jaayen haaye
aa guzar jaayen ...
Pradeep
Pradeep Dubey
Following-up to my own post, to fix some errors ...
In article <62387d$17gi$1...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>, pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) writes:
|>
|> Hello,
|> RMIM is garm-aa-garam again but so is my work-pressure :-(
|> koi lauta de mere beete hue din ...
|>
|> Here are the lyrics again, I didn't see my own posting so far
|> and neither did I find anyone else's which addresses the request
|> from Rajan with which it all began.
^^^^^
That was a typo, I actually meant Ranjan.
|>
|> guzar jaayen din din din
|> ki har pal gin gin gin
|> kisiki haaye yaadon mein
|> kisiki haaye baaton mein
|> kisi se mulakaaton mein
|> ki ye silsile, jab se chale
|> khwaab mere, ho gaye rangeen
|>
|> rahe na dil bas mein ye
|> na maane koi rasmein ye
|> ki khaaon main to qasamein ye
|> unhen hai pataa ...
|> ki jag chaahe roothe ye
|> ki jag chaahe chhote ye
|> naata nahin toote ye haaye
|> aa guzar jaayen ...
|>
|> kabhi ye mera man chaahe
|> phoolon ke jahan ho saayen
^^^^^^
That should read: saaye
(there is perhaps no such word as 'saayen').
Pradeep
P.S. The second error is why I had to quickly correct my post,
as I was afraid, this honest mistake of mine might
encourage Kumar SaNnu :-) to attempt this song,
which he hasn't so far, I am told.
Rajan P. Parrikar
In article <01bcda3a$e6393b40$1dd4...@sparc1.cybercomm.nl>
"Gautam Choudhury" <gau...@cybercomm.nl> writes:
>sing in parts. In India we don't. However, in India if one goes thru the
>gruelling classical singing training one can understand and sing any
>melodic patterns.
>I don't think KK was one of them.
My comments about Indian classical music were general and made as an aside.
>What I was merely pointing out that the
>standard Indian film/popular music is nearly always composed in one key. We
>do not have the concept of key changes. Like we do not have the concept of
>harmony.
No, no, the concept of key changes is there (it is known as grAha bheda or
murchhAnA). It is just that it is de-emphasized in practice. However, some of
the Carnatic musicians (eg Balamuralikrishna) are very skilled at grAha bhedam
singing. Also, you can generate scale of many Indian rAgas from appropriate
graha bheda, so you can see that this scale-change business is not just a
theoretical construct for the Indians.
>Salil introduced a completely new technique which KK probably found a bit
>odd.
>Gujar jaaye din is not just a change from a 'minor' to a 'major' key. It's
I have already made a follow-up post dwelling on the dynamics of this number.
It is conceivable that someone trained in Hindustani music would experience
some discomfort adjusting to the number. But Kishore carried no such baggage!
In my opinion, once you have caught on to the antarA the rest is fairly smooth
sailing (despite all the internal complexity). This is not to say that Kishore
didn't have a problem at the spot you suggest, just that it is perplexing.
Also, Kishore's usual practice when working with high-end music directors was
to request a tape of the tune in advance so that he could come to the studio
well-prepared. Perhaps he didn't do it on this occasion.
Another aside: One doesn't even have to think of this number in terms of a scale
change. You can just retain in your mind the original Sa. The difficulty, however,
is that if you don't have the tAnpurA close to your ear to anchor you to your Sa
all the time, it is very easy to be distracted amid the forest of scales.
>> In terms
>> of melodic complexity we have not much to learn from Westerners and
>everything
>> to teach them.
>
>Obviously you know enough to make this comment.
Than you for the recognition...
>I wouldn't know.
...and for stating the obvious.
>I have
>learnt a lot by listening and learning from both Indian and western music
>and IMHO we have a lot to learn from them and they have a lot to learn from
>us.
This is a well-worn bon mot. I mean, did I indicate or say otherwise? The traditions
are different with different areas of emphasis and complexity. My comment was
about the great strength and diversity of the Indians in the melodic area.
In this department the Westerners are toddlers compared to us. I mean, this is
so well-known that I am surprised I have to re-state it.
It is nice to have an open mind leaving it receptive to influences from all over.
However, these kinds of comments (This is great, but that is great too, and we
all are great, and we all must learn from one another) disguise one important
fact: NOT ALL TRADITIONS ARE EQUIVALENT. While I like Persian music, for instance,
I know that it just doesn't match up to the complexity, richness, depth and width
of the Indian musical tradition. Does this mean we don't have anything to learn
from them?
>Once again, it seems that your have a deep knowledge of both Indian and
>western classical music to make such observations.
>I wouldn't know.
Once again, thank you for re-iterating the obvious.
Warm regards,
Auf Wiedersehen,
r - your friendly neighbourhood agent provocateur
Gautam Choudhury
Rajan P. Parrikar <parr...@rococo.colorado.edu> wrote in article
> Jumping in and out of melodies featuring rapid changes in major and minor
chord
> progressions is not a feat foreign to musicians well-trained in the
Indian
> tradition, although the procedure itself may not be cast in the same
language
> and terminology. The hybrid rAgas of Hindustani music, for instance,
require
> enormous concentration and ability and depth of training. Nor are rapid
scale
> changes (murchhAnAs, as they are called) unheard of in Indian music.
You are absolutely right about the complexicity and the depth of Indian
classical music. As you can see I wasn't trying to compare Indian classical
singing with Western singing. I merely pointed out that it's not uncommon
in the western popular music to change keys during a song and also to sing
in two or three part harmony. Children learn at school to read music and
sing in parts. In India we don't. However, in India if one goes thru the
gruelling classical singing training one can understand and sing any
melodic patterns.
I don't think KK was one of them. What I was merely pointing out that the
standard Indian film/popular music is nearly always composed in one key. We
do not have the concept of key changes. Like we do not have the concept of
harmony.
Salil introduced a completely new technique which KK probably found a bit
odd.
Gujar jaaye din is not just a change from a 'minor' to a 'major' key. It's
slightly more...
The song is composed in the key of F-minor. After the first section (which
stays in the key of Fm, although makes clever use of Bb major, C major and
F major chords), the interlude starts and it ends with four very
significant chords viz: Eb-Ab-Bb-Eb. So, you are firmly led to the key of
Eb. That's the key for the second part of the song. So, the antara stays in
Eb until the last line after which it has to come back to the key of Fm.
Here was the problem. Salil introduced the chord G major, which was so
'alien' to the flow of the song that KK had trouble picking that note
(which was the note 'D', the fifth note of the chord G major). So, Salil
used the accordion to 'lead' KK to that note.
The other not-so-difficult part was after completing the the last line of
the antara (naata nahin toote...), KK starts the first line 'Gujar jaaye..)
with an off-beat 'Aha' and then 'Gujar jaaye...'. Apparently that took
some practice.
Anyway, here are the chords, if anyone is interested. Thanks to Padeep for
publishing the lyrics (aplogies for copying, Pradeep).
Fm
guzar jaaye din din din
ki har pal gin gin gin
Bbm
kiseeki haaye yaadon mein
F
kiseeki haaye baaton mein
kisee se mulakaton mein
Bb
ki ye silsile, jab se chale,
Bbm C F Fm
khwaab mere ho gaye rangeen
Eb
rahe na dil bas mein ye
na maane koi rasmen ye
G
ki khaaoon main to kasmen ye
Cm Bb Ab G
unhen hai pataa ....
Fm
ki jag chaahe roothe ye
Bb Eb Cm (go back to previous line)
ki jag chaahe chhoote ye
G Cm
naata nahin toote ye, haaye ...
Fm
ha guzar jaaye din ...
same as above......
kabhi ye mera man chaahe
phoolon ke jahan ho saaye
jahan pe har dil gaaye
dhun pyaar ki .....
zamane chaahe ho jaayen
vahin pe jaake kho jaayen
vahin pe jaake so jaayen, haaye ...
ha guzar jaaye din ...
> In terms
> of melodic complexity we have not much to learn from Westerners and
everything
> to teach them.
Obviously you know enough to make this comment. I wouldn't know. I have
learnt a lot by listening and learning from both Indian and western music
and IMHO we have a lot to learn from them and they have a lot to learn from
us.
> Western melodic themes in and of themselves are rather "simple"
> and "naive" compared to Indian melodic structures. It is only when the
Western
> music composer brings to bear their harmonic devices on the melodic theme
> (such as the fugal treatment, introduction of the canon, counterpoint
etc) that
> the overall piece assumes great complexity (and in the hands of great
masters
> such as Bach such complexity doesn't compromise on the beauty of the
piece).
Once again, it seems that your have a deep knowledge of both Indian and
western classical music to make such observations.
I wouldn't know. It's a good debating point though.
I thought we were only talking about a film song which was a bit different
than some !
Pradeep Dubey
Ranjan Biswas wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I wanted to send a note to Gautam Choudhury on this song and needed
> the lyrics to be able to refer to sections in the song and also
> provide the chord sequence. Thats how this thread started - my
> request for lyrics. And now, so many people have jumped in and
> we've discussed so many other issues, which is great. That's what
> RMIM is about. Since Rajan P. and Gautam C. started writing
> 'technicalities' of the song, I decided to 'post' what I initially
> thought would just be a mail to Gautam.
Rajan, Gautam, Ranjan:
I love this. This is after a loooong time I am reading stuff so close
to my heart. Here are some comments from my side:
a) My chords are closer to Ranjan's and in fact an essential subset.
Of course, it's all subjective. Starting at Fm, I too use C# on
'yaadon mein'.
b) I am glad Ranjan has explained the complexity behind the seemingly
simple 'din din din'. I could never quite figure it out.
c) This may be very personal because of my limited experience, but
I was completely 'clean bowled' when I realized that the switch
from major (F), back to minor occurs during the 'geen' part of
'rangeen', and I went 'Jai Salil Bhagwan' :-).
d) The scale change to D# in the stanza was certainly VERY unusual to
me. Before I had the tape of this song, I could never sing it right
on my own without the guitar, and would invariably pick the wrong
scale
during the stanza and get frustrated to discover where I had landed.
This
is actually harder to explain. Becaause, any typical hindi song that
starts at Fm would normally right away jump to D# (Eb) major. This
one
did too but after a scale change !!
e) As if the 'gold' discovered above wasn't enough, it jumps to 'G'
at 'ki khaaoon main to' and that was 'sone mein suhagaa' :-).
f) Finally, the entire sequence from 'pataa aaaa ...., ki jag' is
another
treat. I still skip chords here when playing. First of all, it's not
too often that there are two minor chords in a typical hindi song,
and even the ones that do (such as, chingari koi), don't normally
have Cm/Fm combination. And, re: that off-beat 'ha' before 'guzar',
I think KK has done it quite effortlessly and beautifully.
Pradeep
>
> My first impression of the song is just wonderful. I heard it for
> the first time and realised that it was getting difficult to follow
> the notes in the stanza (after the scale shifted) and within a
> second, I was lost ! There are these little-little things in the
> song which I liked and want to mention.
>
> I assume that the song is in F#m, and that's how I had prepared the
> chords and started writing this. But Gautam already provided the
> chord sequence in Fm (a semitone lower). So the for the purpose of
> the discussion, I left it at F#m, BUT left Gautam's chord-chart in
> Fm, with my comments and additions/ substitutions to it. I hope this
> doesn't become confusing.
>
> 1. The interludes and prelude to the song are simple and do not have
> any catches. The accordian is very nicely played, so is the
> backgound guitar strumming and the bass. Wonder whether a bass
> guitar was used or was it a double bass that was plucked ?
>
> [[ On this note, does anybody know when the bass guitar started
> being a part of Indian music orchestras and who started it ? ]]
>
> 2. At the beginning (and later on also) when the song goes "Gujar
> jaaye din din din", at the end of the last 'din' the violins (and
> perhaps the bass also) plays 'pa-dha-pa' once and 'sa-re-sa' the
> next time. The song is in the scale of F#, so the notes are
> 'C# D# C#' and 'F# G# F#' respectively. This is not unnatural,
> but a little unconventional in my opinion (the pa-dha-pa), but
> it sounds good. The reason I find this little off the track is
> because - till this point, the prelude and the single line of
> the song presents a minor-like scale - F# minor. The 'dha' in a
> minor scale is the flattened dha (flattened sixth) and this is
> what *naturally* comes if one is using the 6th note in a minor
> scale. But in this case Salil C introduces the natural sixth
> or shuddha-dha (very gently though). It is not an 'accidental',
> - just an introduction of a note which comes later in the song.
> Interesting ! I really enjoy and watch these type of notes.
>
> [ A note for Gautam here AND for others who have listened to
> Gautam's "Gujar Jaaye Din" in his CD "Down Melody Lane" :
> Gautam's people played something different here. They/he
> settled for a straigh-forward arpegio-like backing - instead
> of 'pa-dha-pa' and 'sa-re-sa', they played 'Sa-ga-pa-Sa' and
> 'ga-re-sa' (the ga being Komal). ]
>
> 3. In both the interludes, after the main part finishes, the four
> notes/ chords lead the stanza to a different scale. This is so
> nice and easy. I have to still figure out the notes and chords.
> Do they play 'Pa Komal-Dha Dha Komal-Ni' (ie C# D D# E) on the
> bass along with the appropriate chords ? Any ordinary singer
> would struggle to get the starting note of the stanza for the
> first time.
>
> 4. In the stanza the song shifts to a major scale of the sub-tonic
> (ie shifts down by one whole note to E maj) or basically the
> komal Ni of the original scale and the chord sequence places it
> here. The starting note of the stanza is the fifth (Pa) in the
> new scale (or Ma in the original scale). I personally think,
> had it been some other note, other than a Pa or a Ga (of new
> scale), it would been more difficult. Pa and Ga (along with Sa)
> are the _ingredient_ notes of a chord and is relatively easy to
> latch on to (after a scale shift). Anyway, this is just a
> thought and I need to experiment this.
>
> 5. Unlike any other 'standard' song, the chord sequence in the
> stanza makes me feel that the scale/base is again shifting.
> As Rajan pointed out, this is very neatly and cleverly done
> and not many people can generate this stuff.
>
> 6. Before it returns to 'Gujar jaaye din', it goes 'ho gaaye
> rangeen'. The 'geen' of 'rangeen' is a descending phrase from
> Pa to Sa, and it goes Pa Ma Ga Re Sa (ignore metre/beat). How
> would it have sounded if the Ga was a komal Ga instead of the
> shudhha-ga ? Its debatable, but I personally feel the
> shuddha-ga (as it is there) is better. Any comments ? Salil C
> didn't want to switch to minor (from major) at this point.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> On the chords :
> (I have used Fm as scale, but above discussion used F#m)
>
> I had some alternate variations - very minor though - on the chords
> Gautam suggested. This is very subjective and depends on the musicians
> /arrangers who create and play the music. There is nothing "absolute
> right" or "absolute wrong" on this (actually there can be "absolute
> wrong" if there's a dis-chord or something grossly odd/off-sounding).
> Again, the choice of chords would also depend on instrument, usage of
> inversions, the way the backing is provided (strumming, continuous
> -string type or in the form of vamps) and also quite a bit depending
> on what OTHER instruments are present and what counters/etc they are
> playing. It can get as complicated as you wish, or can be left as
> simple as you want. I love to experiment with substitue chords and
> know very well that sometimes some hi-fi-technical chords can ruin
> the "sweetness" of a piece.
>
> |
> Fm | I would add the 9th note (or 2nd
> guzar jaaye din din din | note, Re) to this chord on the
> ki har pal gin gin gin | 'din din din'. So it would be Fm+9.
> |
> Bbm | I'd play a C# here (its a relative
> kiseeki haaye yaadon mein | of Bbm, which also sounds similar
> | here)
> |
> F |
> kiseeki haaye baaton mein |
> kisee se mulakaton mein |
> Bb |
> ki ye silsile, jab se chale, |
> Bbm C F Fm | Instead of Bbm, again a C#. And in
> khwaab mere ho gaye rangeen | place of the C (which consists of
> | notes CEG), I'd play a two-note
> | chord (a diad) - having the notes C
> | and G. Might add 7th note also.
> |
> | |----Scale has changed here---|
> Eb |
> rahe na dil bas mein ye |
> na maane koi rasmen ye |
> G |
> ki khaaoon main to kasmen ye |
> Cm Bb Ab G |
> unhen hai pataa .... |
> Fm | The Cm should be played on 'Ki jag'
> ki jag chaahe roothe ye | before coming to Fm.
> Bb Eb Cm (go back to previous line) |
> ki jag chaahe chhoote ye |
> G Cm | (wish I had a keyboard/guitar now)
> naata nahin toote ye, haaye | How does a Cm sound instead of G
> | (tho' they are not 'substitutable')?
> | After the 'haaye' and before 'ah
> | gujar jaaye 'another chord can be
> | added - a variant of C7 (without
> | the E note).
> |
> Fm |
> ha guzar jaaye din ... |
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Rajan, I didn't quite understand this :
>
> > antarA. Once the singer has latched on to the change (and if I
> > recall correctly there is a nice cue provided by the major chord
> > on the guitar) and sensed the madhyam of the 'original' Sa where
> > the antara begins (the new Sa itself is translated 'backwards' to
> > the komal nishad, if memory serves me right) he is all set- the
> > rest of the tune flows naturally, yet another internal scale change
> > in the following line of the antarA notwithstanding. The other
> > trick is to return to homebase but this is easier since the tailend
> > of the antara hovers on the rishab of the 'original' Sa (the
> > asthAie Sa) and all that is needed is a slip further down a semitone
> > to the komal gandhAr ^^
> *** ^^^^
> *** Why does it need to go down a semi-tone to hit the Komal-Ga of
> *** the base scale (the scale in which the stanza starts) ? if it
> *** comes down by one semi-tone, then it'll be the Komal-re of the
> *** original scale and this note would basically not fit in here.
> *** Or am I mis-interpreting something here ? The good thing is
> *** that the stanza ends in the notes '(lower)Pa Re' of the original
> *** scale and at this point the resolution becomes simple - by playing
> *** two chords (V -> I) and then you are back to 'Gujar jaaye..'
>
> > of the base Sa. The bottomline: Cleverness in composition need not
> > necessarily
>
> Anyway, its fun discussing these things. I really appreciate Rajan's
> and Gautam's comments on this song. Rajan, I couldn't see your post
> (the post from which the above section is extracted). A friend mailed
> it to me. If you post anything on this, please cc me at
> ran...@pa.dec.com. More later,
>
> - Ranjan.
Gautam Choudhury
Ravi Krishna wrote in article <61jubv$a...@drn.zippo.com>...
> Myself and my friend (he plays keyboard very well) use to replicate this
song
> in keyboard and found the song to be very tough to play in keyboard. One
had
> to listen to the interludes (antra's) and the way it merges back to the
> prelude (mukhda). Sheer magic by Salilda.
> As for 18 retakes only Salilda can explain it.
You say that you and your friend ('plays keyboard very well') could not
replicate the song easily. Makes sense. Did you actually learn how to play
a keyboard or piano correctly using both hands (using chords and bass
lines) or did you just try to 'import' your harmonium playing knowledge
(which most Indians would do) ?
If you understand chords at all, then it's simple to find out that the song
starts in Fminor key first and then the antara is in Eb major key. It
returns to the mukhda via G major and Bb major..etc. All you need is to
learn the following chords on your keyboard first :
Fm Bbm Cm C F Eb Bb Ab G
Then just play the chords along the lyrics the way I have mentioned in an
earlier mail in this thread.
You would love it !
As I have mentioned before, to understand and be able to play Salil songs
is quite a challenge and it helps a lot if you also have a decent knowledge
of the western chord progression.
Gautam