Request for comments on M-E-A of old
Pavan Jha
Mughal-E-Azam of the times when it got released.. Was it a hit from the day
one.. What kind of reviews did it got for the film and music... and was
everybody knowing that its going to be one of the biggest films? any
interesting stories to share?
thanks in advance
Pavan
Satish Kalra
news:2u8hisF...@uni-berlin.de...
I assume I can call myself one of the 'buzurgs' (not a 'bujurg') on RMIM,
hence here are my observations, rather rememberances. {But please don't
call me a that - a la Shammi Kapoor in Dil Deke Dekho.}
In Delhi, the film was released in August 1960, at the Golcha theater in
Darya Gunj. The son of the theater's manager used to be classmate of one of
my juniors (whose elder brother was my colleague) in my college. Through
this connection, I and a couple of my other friends were able to get the
tickets for the 3.30 show for Sunday, a full two days after the release of
the film. This was a terrible disappointment for us - we normally liked to
see it on the first day. Anyways, these tickets were Rs. 2.50 each
(balcony), and to our chagrin, when we went to see the film, these 2.50
tickets were being openly sold for Rs. 2.00 each, or whatever price a buyer
was willing to pay. We were told that the film had been declared a disaster
(so far), hence the lack of any on-the-spot buyers.
As it turned out, the actual reason for no on-the-spot buyers was the
perception among them that it would hardly be worth taking any chances to
get spare tickets when the film was so heavily sold on the advance booking
counters.
The film went on to celebrate a golden jubilee at that very theater.
Among the songs, 'jab pyaar kiyaa to darnaa kyaa..', and 'mohe panghat pe
nandlaal...' were instant and continued hits. A few months after the
initial release of the film, "hamein kaash tumse muhabbat na hotii...", and
"ai ishq ye sab duniyaa waale..." were added to the film, to revive the
weaning interest among the filmgoers. The Rafi song "zindaabaad\2 ai
muhabbat zindaabaad..." had already been deleted from the film long ago, not
by the producers/director of the film, but by the local
exhibitor/distributors, keeping in mind the mass exodus of the audience
witnessed druing that song, whether for a smoke or for a pit stop.
--
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra
V S Rawat वी एस रावत
I have heard that some 75 fresh prints of Anarkali (Beena
Roy) were released all over the country in order to compete
with MeA.
--
Rawat
Pavan Jha
It was a fantastic story... Even I had a story to tell you.. This is
published in Today's Hindustan Times Jaipur local section (not avaialble on
net)... This is the distributor of M-E-A in 60s talking to reporter Ashish
Mehta. Interestingly the film is being distributed again by him and it will
open in the same theator it opened 44 years back. And the stroy also
confirms (from a distributor's point of view) that it failed in the initial
days as people feared that they wont be able to get tickets..
enjoy the reading..
Pavan
A film distributor rises from the rust - Hindustan Times..
K Asif's Mughal-E-Azam is slated to hit the silver screen again this diwali
with innovations. Interestingly, the person who had distributed the film in
Rajasthan in 1960, Shyam Sunder Jalani, now in his 70s, is again
distributing the film here.
Jalani is nostalgic and upbeat about becoming a part of history. The moment
he came to know that this film would be developed with Dolby sound and in
colour prints, he recalled the days when he was young and had assisted his
father in distribution of this film.
Sitting in his office, he recalls, "Zabardast craze tha. Those were the days
when we had to run three shows a day. Expecting a rush we asked Prem Prakash
Cineam to run four shows."
But an interesting rumor about blackmarketing of the tickets affected
initial collections, he adds. About the rumor he says "Logon ne socha ki sab
ticket bik gaye hain aur log ghar se nikle hi nahin."
"I was scared because I had bought the rights of this film for an
astronomical price as compared to films sold those days. But after a few
days it started registering houseful run and continued like that for 10
weeks", he says.
He shared some incidents related to the film. "As we had released seven
prints of this film in Rajasthan, we went to Mumbai to get the gramophone
records from K. Asif. Because during the intervals, cinema had to play the
songs of another film running then, Chaudhavin Ka Chaand. Though K Aasif was
not willing to get us the records, he finally gave us 25 copies."
"This film has celebrated its silver jubilee in other parts of Rajasthan and
had a run of 19 weeks in Jaipur". After the film's release, he says, "One of
my friends had watched this movie in Bikaner. Iasked him for comments and he
said he had seen the movie thrice but could not understand what was so
special about it."
He further informs, "We had released this movie in Prem Prakash Cinema then,
and now after 44 years, the cinema hall owner expresses his willingness to
screen it again"
Afzal A. Khan
Pavan Jha wrote:
>
> Thanks a lot Satish Ji,
>
> It was a fantastic story... Even I had a story to tell you.. This is
> published in Today's Hindustan Times Jaipur local section (not avaialble on
> net)... This is the distributor of M-E-A in 60s talking to reporter Ashish
> Mehta.
(Hindustan Times Report deleted)
When the film was released in August 1960, all the talk was
about the huge huge (for those days) cut-outs that were
displayed at the theatres. For about a week or so, eager
crowds thronged the main cinema hall but thereafter the
craze dwindled. One could get tickets for the current show
without any problem. Most people seemed disappointed with
the music. Some would say that Naushad had lost his touch.
Others, obviously die-hard Naushad fans, said : "No, his
music grows on you. Just wait for a week or two and you
won't be able to buy the records." When the new songs were
added to the movie, there were critical comments. "This is
a rather cheap trick to get the people to see the movie
again --- amounts to cheating". The "Zindabad" song was
not deleted. In fact, it was quite popular --- maybe there
were too many Rafi fans amongst the film-goers. Everyone went
gaga over the opulent sets and the Sheesh Mahal song, but
there was a little sense of disappointment about Dilip Kumar's
role. Everybody felt that he had been overshadowed by the
majestic Prithviraj Kapoor. And that was true. Others
tried to put on a brave face : "Look, the film is about the
Great Moghal --- if Prithviraj Kapoor has hogged the limelight,
it is in the fitness of things." Everybody but everybody
believed that the old thespian had done a fantastic job. A few
tried to give credit to the director, K. Asif. Most others
disagreed. "After all, it is the actor who has to perform.
A director can only guide him here and there." Speculation
began to build up about the Awards the film might garner. The
example of Sohrab Modi (in "Yahudi") was in everbody's mind.
"Look, PK would also lose out, because he is playing the title
role. Why didn't the Director choose another name for the
movie ?". Most people were sure that Madhubala would certainly
bag the Best Actress Award. And Ajit too, as "Durjan Singh".
One point that impressed itself on my mind at the time was that,
by and large, filmgoers seemed disappointed with
the music.
Talking of Rajasthan, I was able to spend some time at Jaipur
a few years later. Saw pictures at the Prem Prakash. I think
there were 3 or 4 cinema halls with the "Prakash" name :
"Man Prakash" perhaps ? I still remember the majestic palaces,
the "open-type" Zoo where animals were not kept in cages, the
elegant shops and restaurants on Mirza Ismail Road. In fact,
people would constantly talk of all that the great man had
done for the city. Amber fort is also an abiding memory.
Afzal
V S Rawat वी एस रावत
The above is the account of which city(ies)?
--
Rawat
Abhay Jain
I remember walking to school past Jyoti talkies in Indore
when theater was shut down for one month to renovate
for upcoming MeA realease. My guess is that I would see
over 400 people lined up at 7 AM for advance booking
for over 15 days. Movie was a big hit, silver Jubilee.
I saw it with my parents.
AJ
Satish Kalra
news:417FE6A5...@privacy.net...
....snipped....
> The "Zindabad" song was not deleted.
It may not have been deleted from the film in the area where you saw it.
But in Delhi, it was.
Abhay Jain
"Satish Kalra" <Satish...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3-adnbRP_7J...@comcast.com...
> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:417FE6A5...@privacy.net...
>
> ....snipped....
>
>> The "Zindabad" song was not deleted.
>
> It may not have been deleted from the film in the area where you saw it.
> But in Delhi, it was.
I also saw it intact in the movie.
AJ
Satish Kalra
news:ZxXfd.17$UC4....@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>
> "Satish Kalra" <Satish...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3-adnbRP_7J...@comcast.com...
> > "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:417FE6A5...@privacy.net...
> >
> > ....snipped....
> >
> >> The "Zindabad" song was not deleted.
> >
> > It may not have been deleted from the film in the area where you saw it.
> > But in Delhi, it was.
>
> I also saw it intact in the movie.
>
> AJ
Maybe my post was not clear enough. The song was there in the film when
originally released. After a few weeks, it was deleted, at least in Delhi's
Golcha theater.
BTW, it was the same theater where Paying Geuest was released in March 1957;
the song "chaand phir nikalaa..." was deleted from the film after the first
three days; then included back after a week and a half.
Neha
I can only share from two books that I own...since I am not a
buzurg:). I am writing those parts related to the grandeur, success,
release of the film. There is more than this in the book about the
film, but I think this is relevant to what you are asking. It would be
great if some Pune-based rmimer could go to NFAI and see what that
Aug, Sept 1960 issues of different film magazines at the archives say
about this film...
------------
From : Life and films of Dilip Kumar(by Urmila Lanba)on pg 58, 59, 60)
Then came MUGHAL-E-AZAM, a spectacular, semi-historical film which
was released on 5 August, 1960 at the brand new Marath Mandir theatre
in Bombay and 150 other cinema halls all over the country.........
Filmfare wrote in its review of M-E-A:
"Few films make history and one such history-making film is
producer-director K. Asif's MUGHAL-E-AZAM. This film is a tribute to
the imagination, hard work and lavishness of its maker...For its
grandeur, its beauty and the performances of the artistes, it should
be a landmark in Indian cinema."
Asif indeed achieved spectacular results in the breath-taking battle
scenes, the grand splendour of the Mughal court and some of the most
seductive love scenes, songs and dances ever filmed. Awaited by
cine-goers with great anticipation, MEA proved to be a tremendous
success at the box office.
From Madhubala: her life, her films(By Khatija Akbar) pg 156, 157,158.
Shooting for the film was completed by 1959 and it was premiered
on 5th August, 1960 at the new and prestigious Marhatta Mandir in
Bombay. The release of MEA created such scenes of wild enthusiasm as
had never been witnessed in history of Indian cinema. Advance booking
at 150 cinema houses all over the country made big news as thousands
braved inclement weather right through the night to be able to occupy
a front position in the queue when the box office window opened. In a
particular Bombay theater, advance booking has to be suspended after
the house had been sold out for seven weeks in as many days.
MEA was the first film for which an all India press show was
held. K. Asif invited about 60 prominent film critics from all parts
of India to be his guests in Bombay for htis show. The grand premiere
was attended by prominent film personalities, with the Chief Minister
of Maharashtra, Y.B. Chavan as the chief guest. Later, an exhibition
of the various articles and proerties used in the making of the film
was arranged at Bombay's Jehangir Art Gallery.
"From the Opera Hourse to Marhatta Mandire all the side lanes
were closed off as cars went bumper to bumper. There has been no
premiere like MEA's, nor will there ever be...", declares Ajit. It was
a ngiht to remember, a gala event that glittered with scores of stars:
Raj Kapoor, Shammi Kapoor, Gita Bali, Naseem Banu, Saira Banu, Waheeda
Rehman, Rajendra Kumar, Guru Dutt and Geeta Dutt, Meena Kumari and
Kamal Amrohi...and hundreds of others. The film industry was present
in full strength, and Asif was the perfect host. A champagne party
followed at his residence, but Asif's team entered looking dejected
and deflated, for reports had started coming in by then of the
lukewarm response to the film. It was not doing well. Asif alone was
undeterred by the reports, having full faith in his picture. "Why the
long faces?" he berated his guests, " give it a week, the film will
pic up." Sure enough, MEA went on to become one of the biggest
grossers of all time. It had cost a crore of rupees when the average
budget of a A-grade film was not more than 10 lakhs. Initially, it had
no buyers for it was believed then that it would never recover its
costg. Asif expected Rs. 15-17 lakhs per territory but the highest
price ever fetched by an Indian film was Rs. 11 lakhs. He refused to
give in and eventually his determination paid off. The film sold for
Rs. 17 lakhs per territory. But ironically, in its tremendous success,
there was no profit for K. Asif who was but a paid director. It was
the financier, Seth Shapoorji, who reaped the enormous monetary
benefits. It hardly mattered to Asif. It was enough that he was the
creator of MEA and he had made it exactly as he wished.
The filmfare awards for 1960 were announced. MEA, acclaimed by
all sections of people, celebrating jubilees, and breaking all
records, was in the forefront for sweeping the awards. The judges,
however, suffered a strange attack of amnesia in respect of this
movie, surfacing only to award it best cinematographer(R D Mathur),
best dialogue writer and best picture. Two of these three awards were
refused. There were four distinguished dialog writers, Kamal Amrohi,
Wajahat Mirza, Amanullah Khan and Ehsan Rizvi, but giving individual
trophies to each was not considered. Instead Asif was asked to
'nominate the one writer who had contributed the most'. Predictably he
refused, and the award was 'withheld'. He declined the best picture
award in disgust as he found neither logic nor any meaning to it. How,
he reasoned, was it the best picture when its actor was not good, its
actress was not good, neither were its music, lyrics, direction, art
direction? Was it the play of light and shade, and the colour scenes
that qualified it for the best picture? The award for best art
direction was given to M. Sadiq's CHAUDHVIN KA CHAND - which has used
the pillars and arches of the Sheesh Mahal set, lent generously by K.
Asif to his friend Guru Dutt, who was the producer of the film.
----------------------end of excerpts from books----------------
Phew that was long...finally the typing lessons I took in 10th
standard have some use:). All typos(except the 'Marhatta Mandir') can
be attributed to me.
Hope you enjoy reading this...
--
Neha
Cricfan
> majestic Prithviraj Kapoor. And that was true. Others
> tried to put on a brave face : "Look, the film is about the
> Great Moghal --- if Prithviraj Kapoor has hogged the limelight,
> it is in the fitness of things." Everybody but everybody
> believed that the old thespian had done a fantastic job. A few
<snipped for brevity>>
Thanks for the post. Btw, in addition to the above, did anyone talk
about the historical authenticity of 'Anarkali'?
[Speaking of which - what is the consensus of historians on her? Did
she exist? IF she was created as a fictional character, who was the
author who created her?]
Cheers
Arun
lt
"Cricfan" <asi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:a636609b.04102...@posting.google.com...
Good point. I was thinking about the same aspect.
On a different note altogether, the best fictional account woven into the
Mahabharata, by somebody other than Vyasa and a hugely entertaining one at
that is Maya Bazaar. I could never tire watching that movie or listening to
the songs.
cheers
lt
>
> Cheers
> Arun
Ashok
>
>Thanks for the post. Btw, in addition to the above, did anyone talk
>about the historical authenticity of 'Anarkali'?
>
>[Speaking of which - what is the consensus of historians on her? Did
>she exist? IF she was created as a fictional character, who was the
>author who created her?]
>
>Cheers
>Arun
This question comes up quite often and I used to be highly surprised
that it's even a question. But no longer: the question surface just
a few months ago and Afzaal, in his infinite wisdom, opined that
it was historical ("I believe (sic!) so"). It's said that love is
blind, but it looks like the topic of love makes people dumb also!
For heaven's sake, the original play ends with Prince Salim ending
his life by banging his head against the wall behind which Anarkali
was buried alive. That's the way Bina Rai-Pradeep 'Anarkali' ends.
One of the main criticisms directed against 'Mughal-e-Azam' was
for its ending: the totally convoluted and unconvincing ploy of
secret passageway through which Akbar lets Anarkali escape alive.
Denying 'Anarkali' her tragedy makes a mockery of the whole affair.
Yes, 'Anarkali' is a 20th century concoction. It was originally a play,
a highly successful one, written by one Imtiaz Ali Taj in 1922. Let
me reproduce an old post from RMIM that I had posted last April.
====================================================================
There is no historical evidence that Anarkali actaully ever existed.
The only reference to the word "Anarkali" I could find in relevant
history books is quoted below (it's a discussion of Urdu theatre and
the Parsi theatre at the turn of the century):
---------------------------begin quote--------------------------------
Imtiaz Ali Taj (1900-70) was a bridge between Agha Hashr and
contemporary Pakistani playwrights. His Anarkali (1922), the tragic
love story of a harem girl, Anarkali, and Crown Prince Salim (son of
Akbar the Great), unfolds the love-hate relationship of a domineering
emperor and his rebellious son. Brilliant in treatment and character
analysis, this play has been staged hundreds of times by amateur
groups and has entered the list of Urdu classics.
Sources:
--------
1) Faubion Bowers, Theatre in the East (1956).
2) Balwant Gargi, Theatre in India (1962).
3) Hemendra Nath Das Gupta, The Indian Stage, 4 vol. (1934-44).
4) Balwant Gargi, Folk Theatre in India (1966).
----------------------------end quote---------------------------------
This is contrast with someone like Baiju Bawra who was employed in
Akbar's court alongside Tansen (the story on which the movie, Baiju
Bawra, is based is not substantiated by any source, though).
Syed
=====================================================================
A bit more trivia from an earlier posting of mine:
The first effort to be launched in bringing the story of
Anarkali to the silver-screen was by the person who started it all: Imtiaz
Ali Taj, the playwright who wrote the play in the early 20s. The film
scripted by him was 'The Loves of a Mughal Prince,' which was released in
1928, with Seeta Devi (born Renee Smith) as Anarkali. Writer Taj himself
acted in the film as Akbar. This ambitious effort got outstaged by
'Anarkali' which was released in the same year, the lead role being played by
Sulochana (born Ruby Myers). As the talkies came along, this was remade,
again as 'Anarkali', in 1935. I don't know if it was re-shot or just had the
soundtrack appended. In any case, the 1935 film also stars Sulochana.
So, she has portrayed Anarkali twice.
Here's a quiz for Surjit Singh (and anyone else!): There is an
interesting connection between the 1935 'Anarkali' of Sulochana
and the 1950s 'Anarkali'. What is it?
Ashok
Karen Lofstrom
a buncha lovely info about Anarkali.
Great stuff, Ashok. Unless you scream loudly I'm going to drag it over to
Wikipedia. There's an entry there for Mughal-e-Azam and it needs better
references to the earlier films. Also, we need an entry for Parsi Theater
and the sources you listed sound like a good reference list, at least.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What does he expect from the computer community?
Normality? Sorry pal, we're fresh out. -- Bruce Sterling
Abhay Phadnis
<adhareshwar@gNO_SPAMmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
> Here's a quiz for Surjit Singh (and anyone else!): There is an
> interesting connection between the 1935 'Anarkali' of Sulochana
> and the 1950s 'Anarkali'. What is it?
Anarkali becomes Jodhabai!
Warm regards,
Abhay
yeskay
> Mahabharata, by somebody other than Vyasa and a hugely entertaining one at
> that is Maya Bazaar. I could never tire watching that movie or listening to
> the songs.
Mahabharata itself is fictional and is collection of stories told by
various people in the past centuries, the alleged writer (Maharshi Vyas)
himself is a fictious character. So, in that regard, Maya Bazaar just
meshes well into folklore and who knows in 200 years from it will get
inducted into Mahabharata.
V S Rawat वी एस रावत
There are other such example.
Like Surayya in Mirzaa Ghalib had a role quite different
from what that TV serial portrayed for Niina Gupta.
But, at least it is sure that she was not a fictional character.
--
Rawat
V S Rawat वी एस रावत
Hope you don't end up ignigting religious flame.
It is first time I am hearing that Ved Vyas was a "fictious
character" and was "alleged" writer.
If he had not written/ compiled the book who else. If some
individual of group had done that, what prevented them from
giving their own name?
It is just like saying that "All the work of Shakespeare was
not written by Shakespear, but by another person with same name.
Maybe 200 years from now, people will say that mahabharat
was wriiten by B R Chopra.
--
Rawat
Aditya Basrur
wrote in message news:2ufdtuF...@uni-berlin.de...
> yeskay wrote:
>
> >> On a different note altogether, the best fictional account woven into
the
> >> Mahabharata, by somebody other than Vyasa and a hugely entertaining
> >> one at
> >> that is Maya Bazaar. I could never tire watching that movie or
> >> listening to
> >> the songs.
> >
> >
> > Mahabharata itself is fictional and is collection of stories told by
> > various people in the past centuries, the alleged writer (Maharshi Vyas)
> > himself is a fictious character. So, in that regard, Maya Bazaar just
> > meshes well into folklore and who knows in 200 years from it will get
> > inducted into Mahabharata.
>
> Hope you don't end up ignigting religious flame.
>
> It is first time I am hearing that Ved Vyas was a "fictious
> character" and was "alleged" writer.
>
> If he had not written/ compiled the book who else. If some
> individual of group had done that, what prevented them from
> giving their own name?
The fact that it was not one individual or one concurrent group, but people
over several generations. I wouldn't say it's entirely fictional, but most
scholars of ancient Sanskrit agree that the verses have been expanded over
the years to make the 100,000 verse poem. The language is disjunctive,
apparently. (I'm no sanskrit scholar, so can only go by the consensus.) You
should read William Dalrymple's "City of Djinns" for something on this (it's
a fascinating book about Delhi even otherwise). He goes to the site of the
actual Hastinapur and Indraprastha on the outskirts of Delhi. I can't type
out everything he writes, but some extracts (starting at page 323 of the
Flamingo paperback edition) follow. Ellipsis indicates that I've omitted some
part of the text - he spends about ten or fifteen pages on the issue, and
obviously it's impractical to type it all out.
---
"The site of Indraprastha ... was marked until very recently by the village
of Inderpat. The settlement was cleared away by the construction of Lutyens's
Delhi, but until then it had survived since prehistory beside the (much
later) ruins of Purana Qila, the early Mughal fortress built by the Emperor
Humayun in the late sixteenth century. According the Mahabharata, the great
city which once stood there - the very first of all the innumerable cities of
Delhi - ws simply unparalleled anywhere, either in the world of men or the
world of the Gods. '[It resembled] a new heaven,' wrote Vyasa.
[Familiar descriptions of halls at Indraprastha omitted.]
"The more I read of the Mahabharata ... the more I longed to know how far the
descriptions were factual, or if they were simply the product of Vyasa's
imagination. ... there seemed no reason to assume that the Mahabharata was
any less historical than the Iliad, or that Indian bards were any more
inventive than their Greek counterparts. ... I found out that twenty years
ago a small section of the site of Indraprastha had been dug by the
distinguished Indian archaeologist Prof B B Lal. It turned out that Lal had
also, a little earlier, dug the site of the Kauravas' capital, Hastinapura.
....
Lal was a small, neat well-groomed man in a light safari suit. ... Time
was short, so I got straight to the point: quite simply, how historical did
he think the Mahabharata was?
"The professor smiled, took off his glasses and began polishing them. he
said: 'Let me tell you a story.
'Nearly forty years ago, in 1955, I happened to take the Kalka mail from
Calcutta to Delhi. When the train stopped at Allahabad there was a great
commotion on the platform: people were despereately trying to climb the train
... The Kumbh Mela was being celebrated near Allahabad. ... Many years later
I was directing an excavation near Allahabad and, as is the custom, towards
the end of the dig we held a small musical evening for the staff and
labourers working on the site. In the middle of the concert, one of the
labourers got up with this veena and sung a ballad he had composed about the
1955 Kumbh Mela. The basic story was recognizable but he had added a lot of
masala and the numbers had all got exaggerated.
'The idea intrigued me so I investigated in the villages round about, and
discovered two other versions of the same ballad circulating. Each singer had
told the story in his own way ... there was a kernel of truth despite all the
elaborations.
'And you think the same is true of the Mahabharata?'
'Exactly - although so many details had been altered in forty years in
the Kumbh Mela story, think how much the Mahabharata must have been confused
in its gestation. The most ancient text that survives mentions the Parthians,
Romans and Huns, so it cannot be earlier than about AD 400. But the
Mahabharata describes events which must have taken place centuries
previously, perhaps around 900 BC. That means there were 1300 years during
which the story could have been inflated out of all proportion to the
original events.' ...
'In the text ... it says that the epic started off as a poem called
Jaya - Victory - with only 8800 verses. Then it became the Bharata, with
24,000 slokas, before being transformed into the Great Bharata - the
Mahabharata - iwth 100,000 stanzas. For all we know, before the Jaya the poem
might well have started off as an even smaller, simpler ballad such as the
one the labourer sung at our musical evening.'
'So are you saying you can't believe anything you read in the text ...?'
'No ... But what is clear is that you can't rely on the text alone. The
only way to deal with the problem - speaking as an archaeologist - is to look
at the Mahabharata sites themselves ... they have kept the same names. Look
on the map. There is still only one Hastinapura and one Kurukshetra. That
much is certain. ... Back in the early 1950s I began visiting places
mentioned in the Mahabharata ... in all about forty sites. ... the lowest
levels in all these sites shared an identical material culture, and that
every single one of them was definately [sic] in existence at around 1000 BC.
Moreover, all the sites yielded quantities of one very distinctive type of
pottery known as Painted Grey Ware.'
[Dalrymple's examination of Painted Grey Ware, its similarities to
Cycladic earthenware, and how this still didn't impeach Dalrymple's doubts
about the Mahabharata's historicity omitted.] I said this to Professor Lal.
'You're quite right ... But the fact that all those diverse sites were,
unequivocally, in existence at the same time, sharing the same material
culture, is circumstantial evidence of a kind. And when you combine it with
other evidence, you do begin to build up a picture.
[Evidence of the flood in Nicaksu's time, many generations after the
battle of Kurukshetra, and subsequent movement to Kausambi, omitted.]
We got up and left the office. It was now late evening and the great red sun
was setting over the ramparts and cupolas of Purana Qila. We walked briskly
along a track towards the Humayun Gate of the Fort, passed the Sher Mandal,
and then turned left off the track towards a steeply sloping gully. On one
side, a wall of earth rose up thirty feet from the dry bed of what must once
have been a small stream. The earth wall was as clearly stratified as the
rings of a tree.
'Look!' said the professor. 'The whole history of Delhi is there! That
wall represents continuous occupation for three thousand years. At no time
was this area ever deserted. ... In most sites you would expect at least
brief periods when people moved away from a place. But Delhi was always
occupied. There was never, ever a break. At the top of the wall you have the
twentieth century. There are Mughal levels ... that is the Sultanate period
... and down there at the bottom: those are the Painted Grey Ware levels.
'Indraprastha?' I said.
The professor shrugged: 'Yes and no. You see, all we found in the PGW
layers was one small mud structure. I think the main part of the city must
probably have been to the south - through the Humayun Gate towards Humayun's
Tomb.'
'Where the Zoo and Sundernagar are now?'
'Exactly: all around that area - particularly near the Jumna - we have
picked up basketfuls of Painted Grey Ware.'
'So the site is still there awaiting future archaeologists?'
'If they ever manage to raise the money - yes. But these days who is
going to give funds for a proper excavation?'
'But the palaces and gates and towers ... wouldn't every university in
the world compete to donate money ...?'
'You won't find many palaces in the PGW layers ... Poetic licence,' said
the professor. 'The archaeological evidence shows that Painted Grey Ware
culture was really fairly primitive - basically it was a rural, pastoral
economy. At Hastinapura they had iron and copper implements, a few tools made
of bone. Some glass ornaments, good wheel-turned pottery ...'
'But the buildings?' I asked. 'What would the great hall of Indraprastha
have been like?'
'If it ever existed it would have been wattle and daub. ... You get some
mud-brick walls, earthern ramparts, the odd structure of kiln-fired bricks,
but generally speaking PGW structures are almost always wattle and daub.'
'Any use of marble?'
The professor shook his head: 'Stone is very rare in this area and they
didn't have the resources to move it very far. To date no PGW layer has come
up with any stone buildings.'
'What about paintings? The trompe l'oeil which fooled Duryodhana?'
'No - nothing like that. Just monochrome geometric and floral ornament on
pottery. No human figures. The material culture described in the text is that
of the fourth century AD, not the ninth century BC.'
The professor turned and began walking back to the Rest House. 'The
Indraprastha of the Mahabaharata,' he said, 'was basically created by the pen
of a poet.'
'And destroyed,' I said, 'by the trowel of an archaeologist.'
Professor Lal smiled: 'If you like,' he said.
---
I hope that's helpful. I wouldn't agree entirely that the whole story is
fictional, but no doubt some parts have been appended over time. If the story
about 8800 to 100,000 slokas is correct, there must have been a lot of
addition over the ages. The above pages depressed me, too, but thinking about
it, if the Mahabharat is really as old as some say, they can't really have
had rotating wheels with fish-eyes in pools of water? Or delicately crafted
halls of marble? The continuing splendour of the descriptions is probably not
something that a contemporary audience would have considered, surely. It just
shows that you should not be too accepting of so-called religious texts. In
my view, the Mahabharat is useful for the Gita and the lessons of
determination and courage (Ekalavya, Arjuna, Karna) as well as of morality
(Yudhisthira) that it propounds. It's not necessarily good authority that
surrogate fatherhood is accepted in Hinduism (Ved Vyas with Ambika and
Ambalika, then the Devas for Kunti and Madri), for instance. But everyone
will see it differently. It's important, I think, not to be so accepting
without knowing a lot of the facts around it.
> It is just like saying that "All the work of Shakespeare was
> not written by Shakespear, but by another person with same name.
Not really comparable. Shakespeare's texts have been historically documented
as coming from the same period. (There are variations between the folio and
the quarto, one having been the actual scripts, the other what the actors
have said.) There are doubts as to whether Marlowe wrote some of the texts,
most of which have been disspelled. The Mahabharata, however, evolved through
an oral tradition until it was put into text - if B B Lal is to be believed,
perhaps not till 400 AD, which is comparatively recent when you consider the
antiquity we attribute to it. Perhaps Vyas existed, but I have little doubt
that he was not responsible for the whole text. Seems to have been a learned
figure, though, if accounts are to be believed. And I have a personal reason
for wanting him to have existed, as I was born on Vyasa Purnima ...
> Maybe 200 years from now, people will say that mahabharat
> was wriiten by B R Chopra.
Wait till the Sanjay Leela Bhansali version comes out.
Aditya
Afzal A. Khan
Aditya Basrur wrote:
>
> "V S Rawat
> >
> > >> On a different note altogether, the best fictional account woven into
> the
> > >> Mahabharata, by somebody other than Vyasa and a hugely entertaining
> > >> one at
> > >> that is Maya Bazaar. I could never tire watching that movie or
> > >> listening to
> > >> the songs.
> > >
> > >
> > > Mahabharata itself is fictional and is collection of stories told by
> > > various people in the past centuries, the alleged writer (Maharshi Vyas)
> > > himself is a fictious character. So, in that regard, Maya Bazaar just
> > > meshes well into folklore and who knows in 200 years from it will get
> > > inducted into Mahabharata.
> The fact that it was not one individual or one concurrent group, but people
> over several generations. I wouldn't say it's entirely fictional, but most
> scholars of ancient Sanskrit agree that the verses have been expanded over
> the years to make the 100,000 verse poem.
> It turned out that Lal had
> also, a little earlier, dug the site of the Kauravas' capital, Hastinapura.
> so I got straight to the point: quite simply, how historical did
> he think the Mahabharata was?
> "The professor smiled
> said: 'Let me tell you a story.
> 'Nearly forty years ago, in 1955, I happened to take the Kalka mail from
> Calcutta to Delhi. When the train stopped at Allahabad there was a great
> commotion on the platform: people were despereately trying to climb the train
> ... The Kumbh Mela was being celebrated near Allahabad. ... Many years later
> I was directing an excavation near Allahabad and, as is the custom, towards
> the end of the dig we held a small musical evening for the staff and
> labourers working on the site. In the middle of the concert, one of the
> labourers got up with this veena and sung a ballad he had composed about the
> 1955 Kumbh Mela. The basic story was recognizable but he had added a lot of
> masala and the numbers had all got exaggerated.
> 'The idea intrigued me so I investigated in the villages round about, and
> discovered two other versions of the same ballad circulating. Each singer had
> told the story in his own way ... there was a kernel of truth despite all the
> elaborations.
> 'And you think the same is true of the Mahabharata?'
> 'Exactly - although so many details had been altered in forty years in
> the Kumbh Mela story, think how much the Mahabharata must have been confused
> in its gestation. For all we know, before the Jaya the poem
> might well have started off as an even smaller, simpler ballad such as the
> one the labourer sung at our musical evening.'
>
> The professor turned and began walking back to the Rest House. 'The
> Indraprastha of the Mahabaharata,' he said, 'was basically created by the pen
> of a poet.'
> 'And destroyed,' I said, 'by the trowel of an archaeologist.'
> Professor Lal smiled: 'If you like,' he said.
> ---
>
> I hope that's helpful. I wouldn't agree entirely that the whole story is
> fictional, but no doubt some parts have been appended over time.
> Aditya
{ I have tried to delete as much of Shri Basrur's post
as I could. For the whole post, one can always click
on the original message }
The description of the villager's ballad singing and its
relation to the story of Mahabharat (as explained by the
archaeologist) reminded me of the Japanese classic
"Rashomon". Except that the different narrators there are
contemporaneous witnesses, whereas the story here seems to
have been embellished over several centuries.
An aside : Talking of "Rashomon", I remember recalling the
famous/infamous line fron Bulwer-Lytton's "Paul Clifford" :
"It was a dark and stormy night...."
Afzal
lt
"yeskay" <yes...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:cltnhl$q...@netnews.proxy.lucent.com...
> > On a different note altogether, the best fictional account woven into
the
> > Mahabharata, by somebody other than Vyasa and a hugely entertaining one
at
> > that is Maya Bazaar. I could never tire watching that movie or listening
to
> > the songs.
>
> Mahabharata itself is fictional and is collection of stories told by
> various people in the past centuries, the alleged writer (Maharshi Vyas)
> himself is a fictious character.
Well, I share that opinion too but I didnt want to raise a controversy with
the believers jumping all over me. I chose to be very non committal about
that aspect.
Pavan Jha
Has it been done earlier with some hollywood b&w classic?
any similar example of complete conversion from B&W to color in recent
times?
thanks in advance
Pavan Jha
Michel Hafner
>
> Friends,
>
> Has it been done earlier with some hollywood b&w classic?
> any similar example of complete conversion from B&W to color in recent
> times?
Nothing in 35mm resolution. The colorizing fad came and went some time ago
for home video versions. It was artistically dubious and technically immature.
Now it's technically advanced but artistic issues remain.
UVR
Could you elaborate on the "artistic issues remain" part of your
statement, please? What specific (kinds of) issues?
-UVR.
Michel Hafner
1. If a film is shot and lighted for black and white how can you add color
and not change the mood and meaning of shots, the overall impact of the
film? Was the decision to not use colors simply financial/technical or
explicit for artistic reasons? If the latter colorising for commercial
purposes is a mutilation of the original work the same way fiddling with
colors in paintings is or changing the words in poems is, or changing
notes in non improvisational types of music is.
2. If the former, what colors should be used? Who decides? Are the original
film makers still around to decide? If they are dead, who's fit to take
their place?
V S Rawat वी एस रावत
> UVR wrote:
>
>>Michel Hafner wrote at 11/2/2004 5:27 AM US-Pacific:
>>
>>>Pavan Jha wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Friends,
>>>>
>>>>Has it been done earlier with some hollywood b&w classic?
>>>>any similar example of complete conversion from B&W to color in recent
>>>>times?
>>>
>>>
>>>Nothing in 35mm resolution. The colorizing fad came and went some time ago
>>>for home video versions. It was artistically dubious and technically immature.
>>>Now it's technically advanced but artistic issues remain.
>>
>>Could you elaborate on the "artistic issues remain" part of your
>>statement, please? What specific (kinds of) issues?
>
>
> 1. If a film is shot and lighted for black and white how can you add color
> and not change the mood and meaning of shots, the overall impact of the
> film? Was the decision to not use colors simply financial/technical or
> explicit for artistic reasons? If the latter colorising for commercial
> purposes is a mutilation of the original work the same way fiddling with
> colors in paintings is or changing the words in poems is, or changing
> notes in non improvisational types of music is.
first colored film Aan was released in 1952 hence technology was indeed available
in India.
In M-e-A itself, two reels were shot in color.
It must have been a commercial decision not to shoot in color.
> 2. If the former, what colors should be used? Who decides? Are the original
> film makers still around to decide? If they are dead, who's fit to take
> their place?
Even if those all persons are alive, how good is their memory.
But, thankfully, that is not a factor.
Any combination of R-G-B colores gives a unique shade of grey if seen in
b&w. I think they are automatically generating the colors by
matching the grey shade.
now it all depends on how good the original print is.
--
rawat
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Any combination of R-G-B colores gives a unique shade of grey if seen in
> b&w.
This is incorrect. A particular shade of grey may correspond to
infinitely many RGB combinations.
C
ian
ian
There have been some Hollywood films that have been converted from b&w
to color some of the Alfred Hitchcock films I have seen Rear Window,
Vertigo etc.
Michel Hafner
Rear Window and Vertigo were shot in color, not colorised (and restored
by Robert Harris).
What was done for whole films was in NTSC resolution, not 35mm quality
(Casabalanca...)
Naresh
color
and not change the mood and meaning of shots, the overall impact of
or explicit for artistic reasons? "
It was a financial decision to keep the movie in B&W ( except for few
reels)as it would have meant reshooting most of the movie. It is known
that after seeing the color reels the Director wanted to reshoot the
movie in color again.
It is again, purely a commercial decision to color the movie. So
nothing artistic in both cases.
However, I find your point valid. I would surely be worried if some
one tries to color Kagaz ke Phool or Pather Panchali....
Warm regards,
Naresh Khattar
Sudhir with Mr Bhaloo
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.indian.misc/c/Sau5k5ESLdQ/m/mYgmX41uCwAJ
2 Add notes on it being in Color and NOT Colorized were added today
3 For your other post on MEG's Censor's Certificate, I posted a message today at URL
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.indian.misc/c/jKXaaLlSK94/m/Hj5EEkNagrcJ
4 ADDl NOTES on Subject matter of THIS THREAD
A: Myself, my parents and sibling saw this film together in 1960 at PRAKASH Talkies,
Amritsar (I was 14 years then and so a 'Bazurg' now). I saw it 2 more times (Climax in
Color and 'Ab Do Naye Gaano Ke Saath).
My parents and other family members had migrated from Peshawar, so were quite familiar
with URDU language (in fact, my father could write ONLY in URDU) and had and still have
high regard for it and consider it an Indian language. However, meaning of some dilogues
neede explanation from my father: (eg: Talkhiya and many more) The film was HIGHLY
appreciated by every one (NO Exception)
B: THE NEXT FEW LINES COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN WRITTEN FROM SOMEONE
FROM MY CITY (ie: AMRITSAR)
Mughal-e-Azam was eargerly awaited by everyone in Pakistan (more so, for
people living in LAHORE. The city has a very famous shopping area named
after, the main character of this film: ANARKALI
There was a daily Train Service (only 1 trip / day) between Amritsar and Lahore
and back (they are only 36 miles away)
After few weeks of screening, when tickets became easily available, Train-Load of
'Filmi Majnus' with or without family will arrive from Lahore >>> Watch MUGHAL-E-
AZAM featuring khatoon: Anarkali >>> Sleep at or near railway station and then
>>> board the next day train back home. Almost all of them carried back 'lot of
bananas' Luckily the cinema hall screening MEA was just opposite to Train Station
(150 or so meters distance) so it made life easier for them ////// 3 Years later, we
the MEA - Exposed family, too cought the same train and visited LAHORE and
ofcource the ANARKALI Bazaar
SUDHIR /// Nov 14 2021
Sudhir with Mr Bhaloo
and a BIG one, which was made from 3 Across x 2 Up of same size panels
as the Smaller one (ie all 1 and 6 panels were printed by Ofset Press,
using the same size of paper)
Asif Saheb got a 4 times bigger poster (ie 24 panels), which had Shahzada
Salim in the front and Shehenshah Akbar in the back. Both are in full battle
costume. Film scene had a memorable dialogue: 'Baadshah Roya Nahin Karte'
Bigger and sturdier frames were erected at visibility points. In Amritsar, it was
on top of a Railway Bridge.
+++++++++
Another words / dialogues which caught everyone's attention was
'Ba Awaaz-e-Buland Pada Jaye' // Koshish Nahin, Taameel Hogi.
Ise Azaad Kar Diya Jaye
and the way Prthviraj delivered it. Kids as young as 10 years old, adopted this
delivery style
NO FILM, PRIOR to MEA or even after that, had such 'HIT on the Head' dialogues
SUDHIR // Nov 14 2021