Rafi-Ghantasala singing capability debate
Altaican
In one of the forums, an interesting debate started between the
capabilities of Rafi against that of a South Indian (Telugu) film
playback singer named Ghantasala. The debate slowly culminated in mud-
slinging and name-calling before supporters of Ghantasala were
requested to find another board to post about their idol's
capabilities (understandably, since it was a Rafi website). In any
case, there were quite a few interesting posts during the debate (some
of which I am quoting in this post).
My purpose in posting this here is to clarify if these posters are
talking sense when it comes to classical music or if they are just
blowing hot-air using half-baked classical music terms (I have zero
knowledge of classical music). I am posting a couple of posts of one
Mr.Khan. Can someone verify if the raags that he has mentioned
actually correspond to the songs?
The website is here (there are plenty of posts, I am just quoting the
ones that I am interested in below)
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
These are the songs of Ghantasala put forth by his followers, some of
whom claim that neither Rafi nor Manna Dey can sing classical songs
with as much ease and perfection that Ghantasala can.
1. Shiva Shankaree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
2. Jaya Bheri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAB7Q1pvcpw
3. Maya Bazaar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA
4. Telugu version of "Chal Ud ja Re Panchi"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nra86TX__hc
5. Telugu original of famous Kuhu-Kuhu bole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxnuuX_hZQ
There was one poster in the Rafi fan board called Khan, who claims he
has 35+ years in classical music. After hearing the first song (Shiva
Shankaree) of Ghantasala, he writes (I wish I could provide a direct
URL link to the exact message, which would shorten this message quite
a bit, in case it is too lengthy to read, please please read posts
numbering 611, 612, 613, 616, 620, 621, 627, 628, 639, 643 and 645 on
the following webpage, especially posts 612 and 645,
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
):
Khan: " Thank you very much for the link and song. I am a hindusthani
musician with a small experience of only 35 plus years. I have seen
many concerts of many hindusthani musicians and rafi sahab is one of
my favourite hindusthani singer.
Ref. your post 608 , I have carefully heard the shiva shankari song
here by ghantasala thrice and his voice range. I am not able to stop
acknowledging the wonderful presentation by this south indian legend.
With my experience, I can say that the song is based on the darbari
kannad rag, and during my life time I have not heard anybody rendering
the rag in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did. Not even rafi
sahab could render in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did (for
instance o duniya ke rakhwale from baiju bawra film in the rag). In
this song, ghantasala has touched the top ni note in the top range (no
bollywood song or rafi sahab song has been composed in that top range
and it is very difficult to sing there) and in the same way the lowest
dha note in the lower range with ease and comfort and shifting notes
with complete clarity which is possible only for a singer (like
ghantasala sahab) with complete command over a rag.
The speciality of the legend in this song is without sacrificing his
carnatic style he has created a hindusthani sensation thus mixing the
blend of both styles and which is possible only for a gifted and
creative singer. I feel in my humble experience even the great rafi
sahab has not reached that level in singing telugu songs because he
sounds only hindusthani but could not sound the carnatic style. (I
have heard rafi sahab’s telugu songs)
Mr. gani, the voice, highpitch, clarity and command over rag are in
complete harmony and perfection by ghantasala and full 100 marks to
him. I have never heard such song in my life and perhaps bollywood or
rafi sahab has no such type of song to their credit. This point will
be completely agreed by hindi fans of rafi sahab also after they hear
this shiva shankari song by ghantasala
I request, binu nair ji and other hindi friends, to be secular and
without prejudice kindly listen to the song in post 608 and I fully
guarantee that you might not have heard such song in your lifetime. I
being a musician, am forced to acknowledge this, despite being a great
rafi fan, because as a musician I have to do justice to the correct
musician. Pl. don’t mistake me, but in this particular song, I have to
give credit to ghantasala sahab ( you too have to give after you hear
him)
Finally binu nair ji (your post pl. 609), I am an elderly man with 55
plus years. I feel that you will change your opinion of the word
second as stated in your message after you hear shiva shankari song in
post 608, my request is whatever your opinion may be, please hear once
the song here (you wil hear again once you hear it specially the last
1 minute in the song) and post your views with open and pure
conscience. I am also a great rafi fan and man with hindusthani
knowledge pl. you may kindly note."
After hearing the songs 3, 4 and 5 listed above of Ghantasala, Mr.Khan
writes:
"I have heard all 3 songs. I can say only one thing. What a stupendous
melodious voice is of ghantasala sahab, While hearing i was only
thinking this : Why I missed such singer all these years. Simply
marvellous and incomparable.
this is my analysis for all the 3 songs.
The first song duet Lahiri Lahiri from mayabazar film is composed in
the bhoop raga which corresponds to the mohan of carnatic. The
composition is par excellence and ghantasala sahab singing the rag is
even more par excellence and simply incomparable. A stupendous
presentation and equal incomparable soft and melodious voice is the
voice of ghantasala. The lady singer’s voice is also fine.
The second song of ghantasala sahab, which is similar to rafi sahab’s
chal ud ja re panchi, is composed in yaman rag and is the famous
kalyan rag of carnatic. Again ghantasala sahab dominates, i.e. his
pitch is more high than rafi sahab’s song and the voice also more
melodious. Ghantasala sahab voice is simply commendable in high
pitches ( i again recall shiva shankari song). Rafi sahab has excelled
in this song in his usual hindusthani style but on comparison of both
songs, my analysis is ghantasala sahab dominates in this song.
The third song by ghantasala sahab and krishnaveni behan is the famous
one from suvarna sundari film which is the kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya by
rafi-lata pair in hindi. This is a mixture of numerous rags and the
music composer deserves the appreciations and also ghantasala sahab
for having rendered a par excellence beauty to the song (again i
recall shiva shankari song). The depth of classical music and
presentation by ghantasala sahab is simply supreme what I can say.
Since this song was first sung in telugu, rafi sahab might have
definitely heard this prior to his singing, but I don’t know why he
could not dominate (whereas ghantasala sahab has dominated in chal ud
ja re panchi after it was sung by rafi sahab). As usual, rafi sahab
has sung in his beautiful and melodious voice in his hindusthani style
but the depth in the rag and music, which is present in full form in
ghantasala sahab’s voice is lacking in voice of rafi sahab. Ghantasala
sahab’s voice (in the last para of the song - last 4 lines) is super
melodious. Rafi sahab’s melody is equally attractive, but the
difference lies in depth of melody and classical music where
ghantasala sahab displays an edge. The main difference everybody
(especially musicians) can note easily in this song is:
Ghantasala sahab is at complete ease and having full control over the
rag and is without any discomfort in the entire song whereas I have
noticed rafi sahab struggling and facing discomfort to some extent in
some places (especially the rag in the beginning) and the last 4
lines. This may be due to the composition of the song in the carnatic
style, whereas ghantasala sahab is master thereby enabling him to
dominate. I personally feel that this song, since has shades of
carnatic music, must have been rendered by ghantasala sahab (with
little practice of hindi language) and lataji in hindi instead of rafi-
lata wherein it would have become much famous.
Lata Mangeshkar is at her usual best in this song, and the telugu lady
singer, though perfect in classical rendering of the song, falls back
behind lata’s rendering. "
~Altaican
raj6...@gmail.com
> This is a pretty long post. I had been to a Rafi fan website recently.
> In one of the forums, an interesting debate started between the
> capabilities of Rafi against that of a South Indian (Telugu) film
> playback singer named Ghantasala. The debate slowly culminated in mud-
> slinging and name-calling before supporters of Ghantasala were
> requested to find another board to post about their idol's
> capabilities (understandably, since it was a Rafi website). In any
> case, there were quite a few interesting posts during the debate (some
> of which I am quoting in this post).
>
> My purpose in posting this here is to clarify if these posters are
> talking sense when it comes to classical music or if they are just
> blowing hot-air using half-baked classical music terms (I have zero
> knowledge of classical music). I am posting a couple of posts of one
> Mr.Khan. Can someone verify if the raags that he has mentioned
> actually correspond to the songs?
>
> The website is here (there are plenty of posts, I am just quoting the
>
> These are the songs of Ghantasala put forth by his followers, some of
> whom claim that neither Rafi nor Manna Dey can sing classical songs
> with as much ease and perfection that Ghantasala can.
>
> 1. Shiva Shankaree:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
>
> 2. Jaya Bherihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAB7Q1pvcpw
>
>
> There was one poster in the Rafi fan board called Khan, who claims he
> has 35+ years in classical music. After hearing the first song (Shiva
> Shankaree) of Ghantasala, he writes (I wish I could provide a direct
> URL link to the exact message, which would shorten this message quite
> a bit, in case it is too lengthy to read, please please read posts
> numbering 611, 612, 613, 616, 620, 621, 627, 628, 639, 643 and 645 on
Yes the ragas mentioned are correct.
Siva Sankari - Darbari Kanada
From the movie Jayabheri, if it is Madi Sarada Devi, the raga is
Kalyani, which is Yaman in Hindustani and if its Rasikaraja then the
two ragas were used, one being Chakravakam and the other kanada. From
the same movie, if its Ragamayi Raave, then we are talking of Abheri.
Lahiri Lahiri from Maya Bazar is based on Mohanam or Bhoop in
Hindustani.
The ragas used in kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya are Sohini/Hamsanandi,
Bahar, Jaunpuri and Yaman. The music director is Sri Adi Narayana Rao.
Besides these if you get a chance, do listen to the songs from the
movie LavaKusa. He is the music director for the movie and sang a few
of the songs. But most of the rest have been sung by P.Susila and
P.Leela. They both sang as if they were competing with each other to
prove who is better than the other. Personally, I was thrilled and
completely at awe after listening for the first time and even now
sometimes I cry with pure joy.
In the same movie for a verse or a poem, he used Kalyani (Yaman) which
is one of his favourite ragas. I think it goes like "Rangaru
bangaru ....". The reason why I mentioning this is that I could get a
feel and some grip after listening to this verse and the one in
Kalyani that I mentioned above from the movie Jayabheri and many more.
I have never learnt any form of Classical music, so for people like me
listening to these gives an idea of the different facets of the raga
which he brings out with such ease and total control that too in such
mellifluous voice.
More later.
Nataraj.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> This is a pretty long post. I had been to a Rafi fan website recently.
> In one of the forums, an interesting debate started between the
> capabilities of Rafi against that of a South Indian (Telugu) film
> playback singer named Ghantasala. The debate slowly culminated in mud-
> slinging and name-calling before supporters of Ghantasala were
> requested to find another board to post about their idol's
> capabilities (understandably, since it was a Rafi website). In any
> case, there were quite a few interesting posts during the debate (some
> of which I am quoting in this post).
>
> My purpose in posting this here is to clarify if these posters are
> talking sense when it comes to classical music or if they are just
> blowing hot-air using half-baked classical music terms (I have zero
> knowledge of classical music). I am posting a couple of posts of one
> Mr.Khan. Can someone verify if the raags that he has mentioned
> actually correspond to the songs?
>
> The website is here (there are plenty of posts, I am just quoting the
>
> These are the songs of Ghantasala put forth by his followers, some of
> whom claim that neither Rafi nor Manna Dey can sing classical songs
> with as much ease and perfection that Ghantasala can.
>
> 1. Shiva Shankaree:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
>
>
> 3. Maya Bazaarhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA> 5. Telugu original of famous Kuhu-Kuhu bolehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxnuuX_hZQ
>
> There was one poster in the Rafi fan board called Khan, who claims he
> has 35+ years in classical music. After hearing the first song (Shiva
> Shankaree) of Ghantasala, he writes (I wish I could provide a direct
> URL link to the exact message, which would shorten this message quite
> a bit, in case it is too lengthy to read, please please read posts
> numbering 611, 612, 613, 616, 620, 621, 627, 628, 639, 643 and 645 on
My quick thoughts:
Rafi would not have pulled off Siva Sankari nearly as well as
Ghantasala did. He did not fare as well in Kuhu Kuhu (Haayi Haayigaa)
either (the song is not explicitly composed in any Carnatic style, so
that's no excuse). In both cases, Manna Dey would have come closer,
but I am not sure he would have sung as effortlessly as Ghantasala has
in these two songs.
Sanjeev
UVR
Just for the record, I find myself in complete agreement with
Sanjeev's opinion above -- vide both Rafi vs. Ghantasala and Rafi vs.
Manna Dey -- as far as "classical"-ish songs go.
However, I also immensely prefer Rafi's renditions of "chal uR jaa re
panchhi" to Ghantasala's "payaninche o chiluka." I find that Rafi's
voice in 'chal uR jaa' has a certain ... umm ... Thehraav (to use a
word from classical jargon) that is a bit lacking in Ghantasala's.
My overall opinion about Rafi vs. Ghantasala? IMO Rafi was a superior
'film song' singer and Ghantasala had a better 'film classical' voice.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
>> My quick thoughts:
>>
>> Rafi would not have pulled off Siva Sankari nearly as well as
>> Ghantasala did. He did not fare as well in Kuhu Kuhu (Haayi Haayigaa)
>> either (the song is not explicitly composed in any Carnatic style, so
>> that's no excuse). In both cases, Manna Dey would have come closer,
>> but I am not sure he would have sung as effortlessly as Ghantasala has
>> in these two songs.
>>
>> Sanjeev
>
> Just for the record, I find myself in complete agreement with
> Sanjeev's opinion above -- vide both Rafi vs. Ghantasala and Rafi vs.
> Manna Dey -- as far as "classical"-ish songs go.
>
> However, I also immensely prefer Rafi's renditions of "chal uR jaa re
> panchhi" to Ghantasala's "payaninche o chiluka." I find that Rafi's
> voice in 'chal uR jaa' has a certain ... umm ... Thehraav (to use a
> word from classical jargon) that is a bit lacking in Ghantasala's.
>
> My overall opinion about Rafi vs. Ghantasala? IMO Rafi was a superior
> 'film song' singer and Ghantasala had a better 'film classical' voice.
>
> -UVR.
While I am not getting into this debate, I have one question :
In the "Siva Sankari" song, Ghantasala seems to be enunciating
the second word as "Sinkari", i.e. with an 'i' and not 'a'.
Is my hearing at fault ?
Afzal
UVR
I hear him actually saying something closer to "senkari" -- with a
short 'e' similar to the sound in the English "sen"se. Not 'i' as in
'sin'ce. This pronunciation of the 'sha' (shankar waala, not krishna
waala) is a "Telugu" peculiarity. I am not sure I have heard anyone
but 'Andhraite Telugu-s' use it. (IIRC, Ashok Dhareshwar had also
once made a similar comment about Telugus' 'sha').
All I can say is that this is evidently considered the traditionally
'faseeh' pronunciation. But, like many other things, it does appear
to be seen less-and-less frequently these days. Maybe it's falling
out of favor with the Telugus themselves. Maybe it is an inadvertent
casualty of "globalization," who knows. For example, in this clip,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8skmXY-xBpw
one can hear the 'senkara'-type pronunciation consistently throughout
the announcer's introduction, but (SPB singing for) 'senkara saestri
gaaru' himself says "SHAN"karaabharaNamuu! You'll also hear Telugus
like Dr. M. Balamurali Krishna use the more common 'sha' when they
sing.
-UVR.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Excellent points! And those who decide to sing either or both of these
songs are thus in a bit of a quandary as to which way to go! :-)
Sanjeev
cyberhunt
Your hearing is not at fault. The second word is "Sinkari", i.e. with an 'i'
and not 'a'.
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:g7snaq$a0l$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
UVR
Funny you mention that, because I almost added the following to my
previous message: personally, I'd use the "sha" (SPB/Balamurali-style)
pronunciation when (if!) I were to sing one or both of these songs.
Reason? Pronounced with a 'sha', the line "shiva shankari,
shivaananda lahari" sounds just fine, but "senkaraabharaNamuu" sounds
odd (in the context of that song). Odd, that is, to my ears.
-UVR.
Manish Kumar
Meri Mohabbat Ki Kasam". Mohammed Rafi expresses so many different
emotions and transitions from one to the other so melodiously.
Manish Kumar
> My overall opinion about Rafi vs. Ghantasala? IMO Rafi was a superior
> 'film song' singer and Ghantasala had a better 'film classical' voice.
This ends the debate.
I just want to end by bringing attention to the first post from the
Rafi forum by Mr Naveen Zalpuri:
"A Rafi fan is always more than pleased to learn that Rafi is still
regarded as the benchmark and is one and only one singer in the Indian
Subcontinent whom others big ,medium or small are generally compared
to. I have seen people debating over Rafi versus Mukesh, Rafi versus
Talat, Rafi versus Manna and in last 30 years Rafi versus Kishore and
now it is pleasure to see debates on Rafi versus SPB or Rafi versus
Yesudas. And a common thread is that all of the artists themselves
consider/considered Rafi as a benchmark.
Long live Rafi
Naveen"
UVR
Some might say your question is a bit imperfect (if not fundamentally
flawed).
"mere mahboob" is an Urdu song. It's not known that Ghantasala knew
Urdu. Not knowing the language you are singing in can pose severe
challenges to a singer's ability to convey the emotion in the words of
a song. But that's not all. A listener's ability to perceive the
emotion injected a singer is also a function of the listener's
capacity to understand the lyrics! Music (tune, orchestration) itself
may transcend all linguistic boundaries, but the emotions in a film
song cannot be considered in isolation from the language of its
lyrics.
If you do knowTelugu, you should check out some of the Ghantasala
songs that are available on YouTube. In general, he too "expresses so
many different emotions and transitions from one to the other so
melodiously" in his songs.
-UVR.
ukun...@gmail.com
Hard to say. If it were possible to convert "Mere Mehboob Tujhe" to
Telugu or an alaap without losing anything in translation (IMO an
impossible thing), Ghantasala might have got it perfectly, technique-
wise. I think evoking emotions is a different ball game altogether.
Each singer has his own strengths as far as striking emotions go, and
it is very subjective to the listener and also the language. For
example: when you hear Ghantasala's "Hey Krishna, Mukunda Murari", he
captures the emotion of a devotee's intense love, admiration and
longing for his God astonishingly well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LruRsS8vYqk
On the other hand, It is slightly easier to rate classical strengths
objectively especially between these two. IMO, Ghantasala was head-and-
shoulders above Rafi as far as classical strength goes. I would rate
him even above Manna Dey. Rafi was exteremely ordinary (to say the
least) in Kuhu Kuhu. It appeared as if he was struggling with his
breathing in the initial raag while Ghantasala just breezed through
(this despite, Lata taking on the more difficult portions of the song
in the Hindi version). Rafi's nabi style of singing was just not
suited for this song. I wonder why he agreed to do it in the first
place.
This doesn't mean that Ghantasala was a better singer than Rafi or
that Rafi was a bad singer. I don't think Ghantasala would have been
able to pull off most of O.P.Nayyar-Rafi combination songs (like for
example "Pukarta Chala Hoon Main") and produce anywhere the same
effect that Rafi did.
Horses for courses, as simple as that.
Srinivas Ganti
out the following tandem.
My bengali friends were extremely impressed by Ghantasala's
renedition. Considering that they grew up listening to the song in
their mother tongue,
the feeling that Ghantasala brought to make them appreciate an alien
language should be noted.
amar sopne dekha (Shyamal Mitra, Sagarika) - Bengali
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkwCUk1ZKbA
na hrudayamlo nidurinche cheli ( Ghantasala, Aradhana)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS6aNkl3BHs
My friends also pointed out another tandem.
mujhe dekhkar aap ka muskurana (Rafi, Ek Musafir Ek Hasina) - Hindi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asa1VtyeTmg
shundori o amari (Manna Dey, Sri Krishna Prem) - Bengali
o cheli kopama (Ghantsala, Sri Krishna Tulabaram) - Telugu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2XaEf1oCRc
Srinivas.
ukun...@gmail.com
Rafi was used as a "benchmark" on that website only because it was a
website made by his fans and all the forum topics relate to him. That
website looks more like a conglomeration of hard-core Rafi fanboys
rather than impartial analysts. There is hardly any objective analysis
there. If you look at an external website where such "comparisons" are
made, like this of Ghantasala for example:
http://www.ghantasala.info/theman/scit-post.html
All other singers including Manna Dey, Kishore Kumar are mentioned.
Rafi receives no special significance over Manna Dey or Kishore. Here
Ghantasala is the focus of comparison. Visit any webpage where a
particular singer is appreciated, that singer becomes the "benchmark"
on that webpage.
Considering that Rafi and Ghantasala sang in completely different
langauges with different styles, the only fair comparison between the
two would be the one of technical strength. Other points of comparison
would be subjective.
It would be ridiculous to ask if Ghantasala could sing Urdu Ghazals or
if Rafi could sing Telugu/Sanskrit Padhyams.
It would be very hard to believe that Ghantasala had limited
capability to emote or had limited versatility and yet sang thousands
of film songs for hundreds of films for 3 decades. Essentially,
Ghantasala too was a playback singer for films. I know several people
who were spell-bound after hearing Ghantasala's rendition of Bhagavad
Gita in Sanskrit.
His reach amongst people outside his state was understandbly limited.
And simply because he performed in languages that reached far lesser
number of people compared to Rafi's, he is much lesser known in India.
UVR
>
> My friends also pointed out another tandem.
>
IIRC I had mentioned the same song to you at Guri's house a few years
back. :) But thank you for mentioning it here and helping me make one
of the points I made earlier.
> mujhe dekhkar aap ka muskurana (Rafi, Ek Musafir Ek Hasina) - Hindihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asa1VtyeTmg
>
> shundori o amari (Manna Dey, Sri Krishna Prem) - Bengali
>
> o cheli kopama (Ghantsala, Sri Krishna Tulabaram) - Teluguhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2XaEf1oCRc
This right here is an example of what I meant when I said "IMO Rafi
was a superior 'film song' singer and Ghantasala had a better 'film
classical' voice." Isn't there an extra something in the chulbulapan
Rafi injects into this song that makes the difference between the
chheR-Khaani in the EMEH song vs. the rooThna-manaana in the SKT song
that much more tangibly enjoyable? To me, the Rafi song is a true
"film song" whereas the Ghantasala song is more in the genre of songs
that accompanied the elaborate theater adaptations of mythological
stories. Mind you, I'm saying this with reference to the music and
singing alone.
Oh, BTW, I prefer the Rafi version as a film song even without taking
into account the visuals accompanying the song. Were I to take the
Scene on the Screen into account, the EMEH song would win hands down
-- Sadhana vs. Jamuna is not even a question!
-UVR.
UVR
> On Aug 12, 4:44 pm, Srinivas Ganti <sga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > My friends also pointed out another tandem.
>
> IIRC I had mentioned the same song to you at Guri's house a few years
> back. :) But thank you for mentioning it here and helping me make one
> of the points I made earlier.
>
> > mujhe dekhkar aap ka muskurana (Rafi, Ek Musafir Ek Hasina) - Hindihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asa1VtyeTmg
>
> > shundori o amari (Manna Dey, Sri Krishna Prem) - Bengali
>
> > o cheli kopama (Ghantsala, Sri Krishna Tulabaram) - Teluguhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2XaEf1oCRc
>
BTW, the YouTube video says "Sri Krishna Tulabharam (1955)". The NTR-
Jamuna-Anjali Devi SKT was a 1966 film.
Ek Musafir Ek Hasina, of course, was a 1962 film
-UVR.
Archisman Mozumder
> Recently I was part of an email discussion on Ghantasala and pointed
> out the following tandem.
> My bengali friends were extremely impressed by Ghantasala's
> renedition. Considering that they grew up listening to the song in
> their mother tongue,
> the feeling that Ghantasala brought to make them appreciate an alien
> language should be noted.
>
>
> na hrudayamlo nidurinche cheli ( Ghantasala, Aradhana)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS6aNkl3BHs
>
> My friends also pointed out another tandem.
>
>
> shundori o amari (Manna Dey, Sri Krishna Prem) - Bengali
>
> o cheli kopama (Ghantsala, Sri Krishna Tulabaram) - Teluguhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2XaEf1oCRc
>
> Srinivas.
Dear Srini,
You can count me as one of your bengali friends who was 'extremely
impressed' by Ghantasala's ability to render film/semi-classical
songs. :) In fact he has an effortlessness in his style that makes
even a difficult song look easy. It's only when one tries to replicate/
emulate the song, one realises how difficult the song is. Or how
difficult it is to span the range of notes (in the case of 'shiva-
senkari') without the tonal quality of the voice getting strained/
distorted.
Here is the link to the bengali version of 'o cheli kopama', sung by
Manna Dey in 'Shri Krishna Prem'.
http://www.yousendit.com/download/Q01GR0lSZ1B1YlB2Wmc9PQ
Please download within 7 days.
Many thanks to you, again, for introducing to me, the wonderful songs
& singing ability of Ghantasala. Truly, a great singer.
Regards.
kcp
> On Aug 12, 2:36 pm, Manish Kumar <mkum...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I wonder how Ghantashala would have approached "Mere Mehboob Tujhe
> > Meri Mohabbat Ki Kasam". Mohammed Rafi expresses so many different
> > emotions and transitions from one to the other so melodiously.
>
> Hard to say. If it were possible to convert "Mere Mehboob Tujhe" to
> Telugu or an alaap without losing anything in translation (IMO an
> impossible thing), Ghantasala might have got it perfectly, technique-
> wise. I think evoking emotions is a different ball game altogether.
> Each singer has his own strengths as far as striking emotions go, and
> it is very subjective to the listener and also the language. For
> example: when you hear Ghantasala's "Hey Krishna, Mukunda Murari", he
> captures the emotion of a devotee's intense love, admiration and
> longing for his God astonishingly well.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LruRsS8vYqk
>
> that Rafi was a bad singer. I don't think Ghantasala would have been
> able to pull off most of O.P.Nayyar-Rafi combination songs (like for
> example "Pukarta Chala Hoon Main") and produce anywhere the same
> effect that Rafi did.
>
Fully agree to every word above ( edited post )
kcp
>
> - Show quoted text -
so a 8 singing-years difference !!
vijay...@my-deja.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
The general rule of thumb appears to be that where
the letter is "shh" (shhaTkoN vaalaa shh), it is pronounced
as "sh" (varsham, manishi), whereas the regular "sh" is
pronounced as "se" (aakaasam, sastri)
But in the film Shankarabharanam, there are two songs
- Senkara, and the title song. The pronunciation in the two
songs is different. Go figure.
I agree re: Ghantasaala' seming effortlessness in his
singing. He sounds thoroughly relaxed in most of his
songs. Some of his non-film work Kuntikumari,
Pushpa vilaapam are outstanding. His rendition of the
Gita, especially heard early in the morning is goose-
pimple stuff, and is rightly considered a benchmark.
Ghantasala ran off as a kid to pursue his musical
learning at MR college in Vizianagaram. While I
am no expert on classical music, if the cognoscenti
are willing to cede him the higher ground there, it
is no surprise to me.
As to his felicity with film songs, let it be noted that
he was the voice for both NT Rama Rao and Nageswara
Rao - often in the same song! The Lahiri Lahiri example
from Maya Bazaar quoted in this thread is one such.
The first stanza is on Nageswara Rao (Abhimanyu) &
Savitri (Sasirekha), the second on NTR (Krishna, but
natch.) & Sandhya (Rukmini), the concluding coda is
on Gummidi (Balarama) and his spouse Chhaya Devi
(Revathi). From Gundamma Katha, you have kolu
koloyamma where NTR sings the main song, and
ANR pitches in during the interludes. The cool part
is that Ghantasala manages to make each sound
distinctive.
And after saying all that, let me say - I prefer Rafi's
voice to Ghantasala's.
Vijay
AR
There are armies of annoying Rafi-fans all over the web who keep
comparing Rafi to a host of singers from regional films and
pronouncing rather unobjectively the supposed superiority of Rafi over
everyone else. Yes, it is true that SPB and Yesudas did consider Rafi
as a benchmark in singing, which he truly was. But was Rafi the ONLY
benchmark? I am quite sure that SPB and Yesudas have had comparable
words of praise for their seniors in South Indian films, such as TMS
or PBS. One has to be particularly careful in comparing singers across
regional boundaries. For instance, if it is Marathi music, Rafi comes
out rather embarassing. There, Sudhir Phadke or Suresh Wadkar are far
superior. And of course, by no means are SPB and Yesudas any less in
singing capability than Rafi.
On a related note, I have read a preposterous theory on some Rafi-fan
website (don't know which one as there seem to be too many such) as to
how Kishore Kumar's hits in Aradhana (and his subsequent stupendous
success as the numero uno male playback singer of Hindi films) were a
function of Rafi's absence due to his Hajj trip at the time the
Aradhana songs were being recorded, and also some "string-pulling" on
part of those artistes who were purportedly jealous of Rafi. Here is
an excellent example of how to insult Kishore Kumar and several MDs of
the Hindi filmdom in one go, in order to praise your idol.
Manish Kumar
> There are armies of annoying Rafi-fans all over the web who keep
> comparing Rafi to a host of singers from regional films and
> pronouncing rather unobjectively the supposed superiority of Rafi over
> everyone else. Yes, it is true that SPB and Yesudas did consider Rafi
> as a benchmark in singing, which he truly was. But was Rafi the ONLY
> benchmark? I am quite sure that SPB and Yesudas have had comparable
> words of praise for their seniors in South Indian films, such as TMS
> or PBS. One has to be particularly careful in comparing singers across
> regional boundaries. For instance, if it is Marathi music, Rafi comes
> out rather embarassing. There, Sudhir Phadke or Suresh Wadkar are far
> superior. And of course, by no means are SPB and Yesudas any less in
> singing capability than Rafi.
Mr AR,
My intention isn't to get into a blame game but rather to reply to
your post which I didn't agree with. It was the Ghantashala fans who
came to the Rafi website to make comparisons (started at post #450).
Before this, Rafi fans made no mention of Ghantashala. The article
"True Voice" at the Rafi site was taken from another site where a
poster started the discussion "SPB is the greatest singer India has
ever produced". The third response to that discussion reads: "listen
to SPB's extreme bass in 'shankaraparanam' & 'mainey pyar kiya', 'Hum
aap ke khon' then talk abt M.Rafi." Many other SPB fans continued to
perpetuate comparisons to Rafi until a wise Swami sets them all
straight!
Rafi was not the ONLY benchmark. However, Rafi seems to be the most
FREQUENT benchmark to whom other singers far and wide are compared to.
I wouldn't hold the Rafi fans primarily responsible either. The above
two examples support this notion.
> On a related note, I have read a preposterous theory on some Rafi-fan
> website (don't know which one as there seem to be too many such) as to
> how Kishore Kumar's hits in Aradhana (and his subsequent stupendous
> success as the numero uno male playback singer of Hindi films) were a
> function of Rafi's absence due to his Hajj trip at the time the
> Aradhana songs were being recorded, and also some "string-pulling" on
> part of those artistes who were purportedly jealous of Rafi. Here is
> an excellent example of how to insult Kishore Kumar and several MDs of
> the Hindi filmdom in one go, in order to praise your idol.
This is an extreme example from one person and is insignificant. Not a
good idea to generalize. Thank you!
UVR
KCP, where are you getting 8 years from?
1966 (correct SKT year) minus 1962 (EMEH) equals FOUR
1962 (EMEH) minus 1955 (wrong SKT) equals SEVEN
Where are you getting 8 from, KCP?
-UVR.
UVR
>
> Here is the link to the bengali version of 'o cheli kopama', sung by
> Manna Dey in 'Shri Krishna Prem'.
>
> http://www.yousendit.com/download/Q01GR0lSZ1B1YlB2Wmc9PQ
>
> Please download within 7 days.
>
Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, Archie-da for this song. What
are the other P-Stats of this song? In particular, in which year was
Shri Krishna Prem released, and who were the MD and lyricist?
-UVR.
UVR
On a related, but off-topic-to-this-current-thread, note: does Shri
Krishna Prem depict the same mythological "event" as Sri Krishna
Tulabharam? (How Satyabhama's vanity is quashed, etc?)
I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the tulabhaaram
anecdote is unique to the South Indian story repertoire.
-UVR.
Sreenivas Paruchuri
friend at Yale sent a mail asking if I were "reading the Ghantasala-Rafi
comparison/debate that is going on currently on RMIM". It tuned out to
be an amusing read; esp. all those opinions on "sa", "za" and "sha"
(following the Kyoto-Harvard scheme to write Devanaagari) and Telugus'
pronunciation of the same.
1. When was the Bengali film "Shri Krishnaprema" made?
2. There are two versions of "SriikRshNa tulaabhaaraM" in Telugu; from
1955 (Starring Raghuramayya, S. Varalakshmi, Sriranjani) and 1966 (NTR,
Jamuna, Anjali). I can't imagine that any of you heard the songs from
the 1955 version, as no records were issued (except for one; featuring a
verse each by Raghuramayya and Suribabu). Also the film print has not
been located sofar. [I am a proud owner of the film's complete sound
track though :-)]
3. The Telugu versions of the film kRshNaprEma (1943 and 1961) are based
on "bhaagavata puraaNa", whereas "SreekRshNa tulaabhaaraM" is based on
an *extremely popular* Telugu play of same name - more popularized by
the legendary actor (and singer) Sthaanam Narasimharao.
At the end, regarding the "Rafi vs Ghantasala debate" itself, as the
saying goes: de gustibus non est disputandum.
Regards,
Sreenivas
UVR wrote:
1.
> On Aug 13, 4:32�am, Archisman Mozumder <archi...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>> Here is the link to the bengali version of 'o cheli kopama', sung by
>> Manna Dey in 'Shri Krishna Prem'.
>>> BTW, the YouTube video says "Sri Krishna Tulabharam (1955)". �The NTR-
>>> Jamuna-Anjali Devi SKT was a 1966 film.
>>> Ek Musafir Ek Hasina, of course, was a 1962 film
>>> -UVR.- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> so a 8 singing-years difference !!
2.
> KCP, where are you getting 8 years from?
>
> 1966 (correct SKT year) minus 1962 (EMEH) equals FOUR
> 1962 (EMEH) minus 1955 (wrong SKT) equals SEVEN
>
> Where are you getting 8 from, KCP?
3.
Altaican
Thanks a lot for your replies. I am a novice when it comes to Indian
classical music, but these days I am begining to enjoy listening to
long alaaps with fast-paced modulations produced WITHOUT heavy voice
distortions. I have a few more questions regarding judging classical
capabilities of a singer (please bear with me).
1. How does one judge a playback singer's classical capability?
For example, when I hear the alaap from 3:20 to 3:35 that continues on
in chorus till 3:57 in the Shiva Shankaree song, I go "WOW! That was
amazing". It just appears to be hair-raising stuff. The last, high-
pitched alaap is simply mind-blowing. Can one say that a singer is
classically strong just based on these alaaps? Is it possible for the
singer to make a "mistake" in the alaap, and yet be very impressive to
non-classical crowd? Do you know of any Hindi film songs which have
such mind-blowing alaaps, especially by Lata or Manna Dey? I heard one
song "Sakhi Ri Sun Bole" by the Mangeshkar sisters, it was beautiful.
2. How does one compare between film playback singers who are
classically proficient?
Even to my untrained ears, Rafi looked the odd man out in "Kuhu Kuhu/
Haayi Haayiga". He appeared to be out of his comfort zone, while the
rest 3 singers -- also film playback singers by profession -- appeared
relatively at ease. My question is, how do you compare the other three
based on that song (forgive me if it is not fair to do so)? For
example: the second alaap sung by Ghantasala in Telugu was sung by
Lata in Hindi, which of the two you think executed the alaap better?
Is it possible to even judge that? Would it suffice to say that both
got it perfectly, and any additional judgment is subjective?
I really don't wish to invite the ire of Ghantasala (or Lata) fans. I
am just curious how one (knowledgeable about classical music) judges
between singers who are classically good.
3. The forum poster (quoted in my first post) says that
"In this song, ghantasala has touched the top ni note in the top range
(no bollywood song or rafi sahab song has been composed in that top
range and it is very difficult to sing there) and in the same way the
lowest dha note in the lower range with ease and comfort and shifting
notes with complete clarity".
Is this statement true? Isn't Asha Bhosle's last alaap in "Sakhi Ri
Sun Bole" high pitched? How can we know what "note" she touched?
~Altaican
Archisman Mozumder
>
> > Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, Archie-da for this song. What
> > are the other P-Stats of this song? In particular, in which year was
> > Shri Krishna Prem released, and who were the MD and lyricist?
>
> > -UVR.
>
> On a related, but off-topic-to-this-current-thread, note: does Shri
> Krishna Prem depict the same mythological "event" as Sri Krishna
> Tulabharam? (How Satyabhama's vanity is quashed, etc?)
> I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the tulabhaaram
> anecdote is unique to the South Indian story repertoire.
>
> -UVR.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dear Ravindra,
It is a joy to share songs in a forum from where I have learnt so
much. Let me take this opportunity to mention about the source of this
song.
I have got this song from a very large-hearted fan of Manna Dey
(Somnath Ganguly), about 2-3 months ago. Somnath spends a lot of time,
effort & money to collect rare songs of Manna Dey and has absolute no
qualms in sharing them with me while exhorting me to disburse to my
friend freely. Truly, a kindered soul.
This is a pretty rare song of Manna. Somnath dill tell me of the name
of the movie & the composer. I cannot find that mail of his, now &
hence, am unable to find out the name of the composer. It is an
obscure name.
The conclusions that I hence draw are:
Since the song is so rare & the name of composer is so obscure, the
movie must be a mythological fare based on the 'prem' of Shree
Krishna. A movie that perhaps met with less than limited success.
As Srini had one mentioned in an offline mail to me, the similarity of
the telugu & bengali tunes and the titles of the movies, indicate that
one (movie) must be a copy of the other. Going by the fact that
mythologicals were quite popular in AP in the 50-s & 60-s (unlike
bengali movies of the same era), chances are high that the telugu
version is the original one. Manna's voice also sounds lik a '60-s'
voice to me.
I will, however, check with Somnath for more details & let you know.
How did you like this version vis-a vis the Telugu & Hindi versions?
Regards-Archisman.
AR
> On Aug 13, 10:36 am, AR <aji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There are armies of annoying Rafi-fans all over the web who keep
> > comparing Rafi to a host of singers from regional films and
> > pronouncing rather unobjectively the supposed superiority of Rafi over
> > everyone else. Yes, it is true that SPB and Yesudas did consider Rafi
> > as a benchmark in singing, which he truly was. But was Rafi the ONLY
> > benchmark? I am quite sure that SPB and Yesudas have had comparable
> > words of praise for their seniors in South Indian films, such as TMS
> > or PBS. One has to be particularly careful in comparing singers across
> > regional boundaries. For instance, if it is Marathi music, Rafi comes
> > out rather embarassing. There, Sudhir Phadke or Suresh Wadkar are far
> > superior. And of course, by no means are SPB and Yesudas any less in
> > singing capability than Rafi.
>
> Mr AR,
>
> FREQUENT benchmark to whom other singers far and wide are compared to.
> I wouldn't hold the Rafi fans primarily responsible either. The above
> two examples support this notion.
>
Frequency as measured by what? If it's number of interviews, then
there'll be plenty of singers mentioning Saigal or TMS or Kishore
Kumar as their idol.
> > On a related note, I have read a preposterous theory on some Rafi-fan
> > website (don't know which one as there seem to be too many such) as to
> > how Kishore Kumar's hits in Aradhana (and his subsequent stupendous
> > success as the numero uno male playback singer of Hindi films) were a
> > function of Rafi's absence due to his Hajj trip at the time the
> > Aradhana songs were being recorded, and also some "string-pulling" on
> > part of those artistes who were purportedly jealous of Rafi. Here is
> > an excellent example of how to insult Kishore Kumar and several MDs of
> > the Hindi filmdom in one go, in order to praise your idol.
>
> This is an extreme example from one person and is insignificant. Not a
> good idea to generalize. Thank you!
Sure this was an extreme example. But I am not generalizing, and it
wasn't from one person. Whatever I wrote here, was based on several
writeups that deify Rafi and put others down (and that too without
knowledge of songs sung by other singers). So it is obvious that the
community of Rafi fans is getting a bad name. Rafi would be turning in
his grave - and that because of his fans. What a pity!
kcp
>
>
Add the age difference between the two singers :-)
kcp
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
> This is a pretty long post. I had been to a Rafi fan website recently.
> In one of the forums, an interesting debate started between the
> capabilities of Rafi against that of a South Indian (Telugu) film
> playback singer named Ghantasala. The debate slowly culminated in mud-
> slinging and name-calling before supporters of Ghantasala were
> requested to find another board to post about their idol's
> capabilities (understandably, since it was a Rafi website). In any
> case, there were quite a few interesting posts during the debate (some
> of which I am quoting in this post).
>
> My purpose in posting this here is to clarify if these posters are
> talking sense when it comes to classical music or if they are just
> blowing hot-air using half-baked classical music terms (I have zero
> knowledge of classical music). I am posting a couple of posts of one
> Mr.Khan. Can someone verify if the raags that he has mentioned
> actually correspond to the songs?
>
> The website is here (there are plenty of posts, I am just quoting the
> ones that I am interested in below)
> http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
>
> These are the songs of Ghantasala put forth by his followers, some of
> whom claim that neither Rafi nor Manna Dey can sing classical songs
> with as much ease and perfection that Ghantasala can.
>
> 1. Shiva Shankaree:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
>
> 2. Jaya Bheri
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAB7Q1pvcpw
>
> 3. Maya Bazaar
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA
>
> 4. Telugu version of "Chal Ud ja Re Panchi"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nra86TX__hc
>
> 5. Telugu original of famous Kuhu-Kuhu bole
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxnuuX_hZQ
>
> There was one poster in the Rafi fan board called Khan, who claims he
> has 35+ years in classical music. After hearing the first song (Shiva
> Shankaree) of Ghantasala, he writes (I wish I could provide a direct
> URL link to the exact message, which would shorten this message quite
> a bit, in case it is too lengthy to read, please please read posts
> numbering 611, 612, 613, 616, 620, 621, 627, 628, 639, 643 and 645 on
> the following webpage, especially posts 612 and 645,
> http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
> ):
> Khan: " Thank you very much for the link and song. I am a hindusthani
> musician with a small experience of only 35 plus years. I have seen
> many concerts of many hindusthani musicians and rafi sahab is one of
> my favourite hindusthani singer.
> Ref. your post 608 , I have carefully heard the shiva shankari song
> here by ghantasala thrice and his voice range. I am not able to stop
> acknowledging the wonderful presentation by this south indian legend.
> With my experience, I can say that the song is based on the darbari
> kannad rag, and during my life time I have not heard anybody rendering
> the rag in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did. Not even rafi
> sahab could render in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did (for
> instance o duniya ke rakhwale from baiju bawra film in the rag). In
> this song, ghantasala has touched the top ni note in the top range (no
> bollywood song or rafi sahab song has been composed in that top range
> and it is very difficult to sing there) and in the same way the lowest
> dha note in the lower range with ease and comfort and shifting notes
> ghantasala sahab) with complete command over a rag.
> The speciality of the legend in this song is without sacrificing his
> carnatic style he has created a hindusthani sensation thus mixing the
> blend of both styles and which is possible only for a gifted and
> creative singer. I feel in my humble experience even the great rafi
> sahab has not reached that level in singing telugu songs because he
> sounds only hindusthani but could not sound the carnatic style. (I
> have heard rafi sahab�s telugu songs)
> Mr. gani, the voice, highpitch, clarity and command over rag are in
> complete harmony and perfection by ghantasala and full 100 marks to
> him. I have never heard such song in my life and perhaps bollywood or
> rafi sahab has no such type of song to their credit. This point will
> be completely agreed by hindi fans of rafi sahab also after they hear
> this shiva shankari song by ghantasala
> I request, binu nair ji and other hindi friends, to be secular and
> without prejudice kindly listen to the song in post 608 and I fully
> guarantee that you might not have heard such song in your lifetime. I
> being a musician, am forced to acknowledge this, despite being a great
> rafi fan, because as a musician I have to do justice to the correct
> musician. Pl. don�t mistake me, but in this particular song, I have to
> give credit to ghantasala sahab ( you too have to give after you hear
> him)
> Finally binu nair ji (your post pl. 609), I am an elderly man with 55
> plus years. I feel that you will change your opinion of the word
> second as stated in your message after you hear shiva shankari song in
> post 608, my request is whatever your opinion may be, please hear once
> the song here (you wil hear again once you hear it specially the last
> 1 minute in the song) and post your views with open and pure
> conscience. I am also a great rafi fan and man with hindusthani
> knowledge pl. you may kindly note."
>
>
> After hearing the songs 3, 4 and 5 listed above of Ghantasala, Mr.Khan
> writes:
> "I have heard all 3 songs. I can say only one thing. What a stupendous
> melodious voice is of ghantasala sahab, While hearing i was only
> thinking this : Why I missed such singer all these years. Simply
> marvellous and incomparable.
>
> this is my analysis for all the 3 songs.
>
> The first song duet Lahiri Lahiri from mayabazar film is composed in
> the bhoop raga which corresponds to the mohan of carnatic. The
> composition is par excellence and ghantasala sahab singing the rag is
> even more par excellence and simply incomparable. A stupendous
> presentation and equal incomparable soft and melodious voice is the
> voice of ghantasala. The lady singer�s voice is also fine.
>
> The second song of ghantasala sahab, which is similar to rafi sahab�s
> chal ud ja re panchi, is composed in yaman rag and is the famous
> kalyan rag of carnatic. Again ghantasala sahab dominates, i.e. his
> pitch is more high than rafi sahab�s song and the voice also more
> melodious. Ghantasala sahab voice is simply commendable in high
> pitches ( i again recall shiva shankari song). Rafi sahab has excelled
> in this song in his usual hindusthani style but on comparison of both
> songs, my analysis is ghantasala sahab dominates in this song.
>
> The third song by ghantasala sahab and krishnaveni behan is the famous
> one from suvarna sundari film which is the kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya by
> rafi-lata pair in hindi. This is a mixture of numerous rags and the
> music composer deserves the appreciations and also ghantasala sahab
> for having rendered a par excellence beauty to the song (again i
> recall shiva shankari song). The depth of classical music and
> presentation by ghantasala sahab is simply supreme what I can say.
> Since this song was first sung in telugu, rafi sahab might have
> definitely heard this prior to his singing, but I don�t know why he
> could not dominate (whereas ghantasala sahab has dominated in chal ud
> ja re panchi after it was sung by rafi sahab). As usual, rafi sahab
> has sung in his beautiful and melodious voice in his hindusthani style
> but the depth in the rag and music, which is present in full form in
> ghantasala sahab�s voice is lacking in voice of rafi sahab. Ghantasala
> sahab�s voice (in the last para of the song - last 4 lines) is super
> melodious. Rafi sahab�s melody is equally attractive, but the
> difference lies in depth of melody and classical music where
> ghantasala sahab displays an edge. The main difference everybody
> (especially musicians) can note easily in this song is:
>
> Ghantasala sahab is at complete ease and having full control over the
> rag and is without any discomfort in the entire song whereas I have
> noticed rafi sahab struggling and facing discomfort to some extent in
> some places (especially the rag in the beginning) and the last 4
> lines. This may be due to the composition of the song in the carnatic
> style, whereas ghantasala sahab is master thereby enabling him to
> dominate. I personally feel that this song, since has shades of
> carnatic music, must have been rendered by ghantasala sahab (with
> little practice of hindi language) and lataji in hindi instead of rafi-
> lata wherein it would have become much famous.
>
> Lata Mangeshkar is at her usual best in this song, and the telugu lady
> singer, though perfect in classical rendering of the song, falls back
> behind lata�s rendering. "
>
>
>
> ~Altaican
I am not getting into the Rafi - vs- Ghantasala debate.
It seems that Rafi is always being crucified for one song "kuhu kuhu
bole" ignoring the rest of his vast repertoire of classical songs in
films, leave alone his songs in other genres.
One then begins to wonder as to why did Adi Narayan Rao not re-record
the song with some other singer in place of Rafi, if the output was
not satisfactory?
Regards
Sukesh
Naseer
Without wishing to upset any Ghantasala lovers, IMHO Rafi's voice is
simply heavanly whereas Ghantasala 's voice is not only "earthly" but
also he seems to have an old man's voice. In addition one feels as if
he was singing with dentures in his mouth!
As a side question, did Ghantasala ever sing Punjabi songs? If he did
n't, a certain Inayat Hussain Bhatti must be his double!!:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McsPy3c-ijc
Naseer
Afzal A. Khan
I suppose by "double", you are merely referring to their voices,
and not physiques !
Janaab Bhatti looks as if he may challenge Bholu Pehlwaan (and/or
his progeny) and, maybe, come out victorious. Sri Ghantasaala,
on the other hand, was a relatively short person (with a divine
voice) and looked like a saintly ascetic. Just my view.
Afzal
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> Dear everyone,
>
> Without wishing to upset any Ghantasala lovers, IMHO Rafi's voice is
> simply heavanly whereas Ghantasala 's voice is not only "earthly" but
> also he seems to have an old man's voice. In addition one feels as if
> he was singing with dentures in his mouth!
I would express it a bit differently, but I know where you're coming
from...Ghantasala's classical advantages notwithstanding, I have yet
to come across a Ghantasala rendering of a light/romantic song that
(IMO) carries the energy, feeling of youth, and verve of many, many,
Rafi renditions.
Sanjeev
Sreenivas Paruchuri
> from...Ghantasala's classical advantages notwithstanding, I have yet
> to come across a Ghantasala rendering of a light/romantic song that
> (IMO) carries the energy, feeling of youth, and verve of many, many,
> Rafi renditions.
As I already said in my earlier post "theres no dispute about taste!"
and I do *not* want to get into this IMHO silly debate. However I wish
that people inform themselves a bit more about Ghantasala's songs, for
e.g. of pre-1955 era before making comments such as above; esp. if such
comments are coming from senior and respected RMIMers.
vijay...@my-deja.com wrote:
> On Aug 15, 8:47�pm, Srinivas Ganti <sga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 4) palleku podaam parulu chooddam, Devadasu
...
> That is of course, "paro ni chooddam"..(i.e.,
> let us go back to the village and visit Paro)
Oh, Ganti is not that far off! Its a small typo, and should be "pArunu".
The complete line reads: "palleku pOdaam paarunu chood(d)am".
Regards,
Sreenivas
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
> > from...Ghantasala's classical advantages notwithstanding, I have yet
> > to come across a Ghantasala rendering of a light/romantic song that
> > (IMO) carries the energy, feeling of youth, and verve of many, many,
> > Rafi renditions.
>
> As I already said in my earlier post "theres no dispute about taste!"
> and I do *not* want to get into this IMHO silly debate. However I wish
> that people inform themselves a bit more about Ghantasala's songs, for
> e.g. of pre-1955 era before making comments such as above; esp. if such
> comments are coming from senior and respected RMIMers.
Sreenivas,
All I said was that *I* have yet to come across one - I plead guilty
to not being as familiar with Ghantasala's output as I am with
Rafi's...if you have specific examples in mind please share them (a
sincere request). I do have an image of Ghantasala formed based on
what I've heard, but I'm happy to reconsider this image after hearing
more. And I agree, there's no dispute about taste.
Sanjeev
ukun...@gmail.com
That is such a ridiculous comment. Hard to believe that even learned
members can be such rotten fanboys.
Once again, please remember that Ghantasala sang thousands of film
songs! He was virtually the voice of Telugu cinema during the 50s and
the 60s. He was exactly the same for Telugu cinema as Rafi or Kishore
were to Hindi cinema. Don't you think he would have sung several
light, romantic songs for 2 complete decades (unless Telugu cinema was
completely bereft of such movies for entire 2 decades)? If he had
belted out classical number after classical number, do you think he
would even be appreciated by the Andhra masses?
Ghantasala was as much at home at singing light, romantic songs as he
was at classical (he was far more at home in singing them than Rafi
was at singing pure classical songs). He wasn't a Bhimsen Joshi for
Christ's sake (although he could hold his own in classical music). Not
only did Ghantasala sing countless light, romantic songs, he even
composed music for several of them. In fact, Ghantasala can be
regarded as a legend by just considering his music direction for
films.
Whether his songs or voice contain the verve or feeling or energy is
totally subjective, and to be able to judge that you need to have some
basic understanding of the language and the song/movie situation. Try
asking white (or black) Americans with no knowledge of Hindi/Urdu to
listen to Rafi's romantic songs, and ask them if those songs evoke any
feelings within them, you will probably understand how idiotic this
kind of conclusion is.
This has nothing to do with Rafi. In my subjective opinion, Rafi had a
softer voice than Ghantasala. He had one of the best voices for a male
playback singer, especially suited to Hindi film songs. Take the song
"Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho" from the movie Hanste Zakhm. Rafi's voice was
perfectly suited for that song. I don't think Kishore singing the same
song (if he could have managed it) would have anywhere near the same
effect. But does that mean that Kishore can't sing light, romantic or
energetic songs?
I really don't know where to start from as far as Ghantasala's light,
romantic or even naughty songs are concerned. But below are a few that
I can remember from the top of my head. People who don't know the
language will obviously find it almost impossible to appreciate them,
but they can try to listen to them with an open mind (I know it is
very difficult for fanboys). Amusingly, several of these songs have
already been posted earlier in this thread.
1. Niluave Vaalu Kannula Daana from the movie Illarikam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrd92hsuILk
2. Naa Hrudayamlo Nidurinche Cheli from the movie Aradhana (Telugu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS6aNkl3BHs&feature=related
3. Oohala Gusa Gusa laadey from the movie Bandipotu (Ghantasala's
music direction)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBtnjV67Z64&feature=related
4. Vagala Rani from the movie Bandipotu (Ghantasala's music direction)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc08mJhLDbo&feature=related
5. Perma Yatralaku from Gundamma Katha (Ghantasala's music direction)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_yxIF2T3Bw
6. Kolo Kolo from Gundamma Katha (Ghantasala's music direction).
As mentioned earlier in this thread, Ghantasala sings for 2 heroes in
this song. The way he subtly changes his tone to suit each hero is
really good. It is the hallmark of a great playback singer (Rafi and
Kishore did that extremely well too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXkok3Cdnw4&feature=related
7. Chiguru Aakulalo from Donga Ramudu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4iRmS85N20
8. Kalavare Maaye Madilo from Pathala Bhairavi (Ghantasala's music
direction)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnCsBKj1F74&feature=related
9. Lahiri Lahiri Lahirilo from Maya Bazaar (Ghantasala's music
direction)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA&feature=related
10. Sundarangulanu Choosina Velala from Appu Chesi Pappu Koodu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yj8leDAFsE&feature=related
Jay
Hello Sanjeev:
You & I are both Tamilians in the first place, Secondly, I am a senior
citizen unlike you,preently. Thirdly, you are 'phoren' based ..a music
lover too..just like anyone else..maybe lacking in knowledge in cine
music,in general.
Heed my advice and do as I say..for your BENEFIT.
LOGIN to www.dhool.com. Therein, you will find Mr.Saravanan,noted
historian of Tamil/Telegu cine music and his stupendous works for that
website. NEXT, look out for the topic: "A 100 film songs by Bhanumati"
researched by that historian in a chronological order. This is for
your KNOWLEDGE. Read it thoroughly...enjoy the songs of VENKATESH RAO
GHANTASALA therein.
Please offer your sincere feedback.
Jay
19/8
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> On Aug 15, 2:06 pm, Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
> > > I would express it a bit differently, but I know where you're coming
> > from...Ghantasala's classical advantages notwithstanding, I have yet
> > to come across a Ghantasala rendering of a light/romantic song that
> > (IMO) carries the energy, feeling of youth, and verve of many, many,
> > Rafi renditions.
>
> members can be such rotten fanboys.
And your comment about me being a rotten fanboy is no less ridiculous.
You are presumably talking about me and Rafi, and you obviously
haven't read enough of my posts to see where I on the whole really
stand on him.
>
> Once again, please remember that Ghantasala sang thousands of film
> songs! He was virtually the voice of Telugu cinema during the 50s and
> the 60s. He was exactly the same for Telugu cinema as Rafi or Kishore
> were to Hindi cinema. Don't you think he would have sung several
> light, romantic songs for 2 complete decades (unless Telugu cinema was
> completely bereft of such movies for entire 2 decades)? If he had
> belted out classical number after classical number, do you think he
> would even be appreciated by the Andhra masses?
Not the point - I am well-acquainted with his *status* in the Telugu
film industry, and have no doubt that he has sung songs of different
kinds. I was only speculating on what I'd expect to hear from him
given what I already know. I also know (at least) a handful of Telugu
speakers who feel this way about Ghantasala's romanticism (or lack
thereof) after hearing/knowing many more songs than I have.
> Ghantasala was as much at home at singing light, romantic songs as he
> was at classical (he was far more at home in singing them than Rafi
> was at singing pure classical songs). He wasn't a Bhimsen Joshi for
> Christ's sake (although he could hold his own in classical music). Not
> only did Ghantasala sing countless light, romantic songs, he even
> composed music for several of them. In fact, Ghantasala can be
> regarded as a legend by just considering his music direction for
> films.
No doubt - but again, not the point.
> I really don't know where to start from as far as Ghantasala's light,
> romantic or even naughty songs are concerned. But below are a few that
> I can remember from the top of my head. People who don't know the
> language will obviously find it almost impossible to appreciate them,
> but they can try to listen to them with an open mind (I know it is
> very difficult for fanboys).
That's code for "any other conclusion is tantamount to fanboy-ism".
Ignoring that, I (sincerely) will check out the pieces you mention
below (with an open mind).
> Amusingly, several of these songs have
> already been posted earlier in this thread.
Yes, I see that...I missed those.
> 6. Kolo Kolo from Gundamma Katha (Ghantasala's music direction).
> As mentioned earlier in this thread, Ghantasala sings for 2 heroes in
> this song. The way he subtly changes his tone to suit each hero is
> really good. It is the hallmark of a great playback singer (Rafi and
> Kishore did that extremely well too)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXkok3Cdnw4&feature=related
This is a much-ballyhooed theory. Don't know about Ghantasala, but I
have never been convinced that Rafi (or Kishore or any playback
singers) really pulled that off consistently. Can you really tell that
"Mere Mehboob Tujhe" is for Rajendra Kumar, rather than Dilip Kumar,
just from the voice? Or that "Ye Purnoor Chehra" (Mohabbat Zindagi
Hai) is for Dharam, not Shammi? At least in Rafi's case, I think it's
much more a function of the music director (Naushad, OPN, SJ) than
the on-screen actor.
Sanjeev
ukun...@gmail.com
> And your comment about me being a rotten fanboy is no less ridiculous.
> You are presumably talking about me and Rafi, and you obviously
> haven't read enough of my posts to see where I on the whole really
> stand on him.
Firstly, having a preference is not a fault. IMO, it is perfectly
alright to idolize one artist. You needn't get defensive. I have read
enough of your posts. You are knowledgeable about Hindi film music and
Hindusthani classical music, and nearly neutral in Rafi-Kishore
debates. What I call your fanboyism is your judgement on Ghantasala's
singing vis-a-vis Rafi's singing, when you are in absolutely no
position to make a judgement call on Ghantasala's singing.
By your own admission you haven't heard Ghantasala's singing enough.
Then, what is the need to justify pathetic suggestions like
"Ghantasala soundling like someone singing with dentures in the
mouth". And you justify it by telling that you have never heard even a
single light, romantic song of Ghantasala ("for all his classical
strength") that Rafi has sung so many times. If that isn't fanboyism
then I don't know what it is (obviously you don't despise Ghantasala,
do you?). There is no need for you to pull down Ghantasala (especially
when you aren't eligible to do so) to score a few brownie points for
Rafi.
My basic point is this: any analysis of singing which goes beyond
technical terms is purely subjective (especially when you compare
across cultures, Robert Heinlein quote "One man's theology is another
man's belly laugh" is so true.).
Don't try to rate or justify something subjective in absolute terms.
If "Deewana Hua Badal" by Rafi is the ultimate romantic song to one
person, then "Phoolon Ke Rang Se" by Kishore is the same to another
person, and "Kalavaram aye Madilo" by Ghantasala is the same to a
third person. You can't universally rate one better than the other
simply because beauty lies in the beholder's eye.
> Not the point - I am well-acquainted with his *status* in the Telugu
> film industry, and have no doubt that he has sung songs of different
> kinds. I was only speculating on what I'd expect to hear from him
> given what I already know. I also know (at least) a handful of Telugu
> speakers who feel this way about Ghantasala's romanticism (or lack
> thereof) after hearing/knowing many more songs than I have.
Going by the same logic, I know few people (hard-core fans of old
Hindi film songs), who feel the same about Rafi. Just think for a
moment, how ridiculous it would be, if I took the judgement of these
people as examples and come to the conclusion that Rafi lacks emotion
in his voice (and then come and argue with you).
If you really want to know what Telugu people think about Ghantasala's
"lack of romanticism", why don't you read comments made by them on his
songs on youtube? A visit to any of the Telugu music forums available
on the web should be enough to show you what they think about
Ghantasala's capability to emote.
> > I really don't know where to start from as far as Ghantasala's light,
> > romantic or even naughty songs are concerned. But below are a few that
> > I can remember from the top of my head. People who don't know the
> > language will obviously find it almost impossible to appreciate them,
> > but they can try to listen to them with an open mind (I know it is
> > very difficult for fanboys).
>
> That's code for "any other conclusion is tantamount to fanboy-ism".
> Ignoring that, I (sincerely) will check out the pieces you mention
> below (with an open mind).
Nope. You don't have to have the same conclusion that I do. But try to
understand that your conclusions (in this case) aren't absolute. This
is the code for saying: When it comes to subjective matters, the world
doesn't necessarily have to think the same way as I do.
>
> This is a much-ballyhooed theory. Don't know about Ghantasala, but I
> have never been convinced that Rafi (or Kishore or any playback
> singers) really pulled that off consistently. Can you really tell that
> "Mere Mehboob Tujhe" is for Rajendra Kumar, rather than Dilip Kumar,
> just from the voice? Or that "Ye Purnoor Chehra" (Mohabbat Zindagi
> Hai) is for Dharam, not Shammi? At least in Rafi's case, I think it's
> much more a function of the music director (Naushad, OPN, SJ) than
> the on-screen actor.
>
Jeez, why do you have to be picky just for the sake of being picky?
What I meant is not about guessing the hero from a song, it is about
the subtle changes made by the singer so that the song fits the
particular actor on the screen. In Ghantasala's case, he was singing
for both the heroes in the same song. One would have to be deaf if one
can't detect the change in his tone between the two heroes. Whether it
was acheived by synthetic or other means, I don't know and I don't
care. In any case, why don't you hear the song a few times and then
try to see what I am saying. Kishore singing for Amitabh does sound
subtly but noticeably different from Kishore singing for Dev Anand
(taking Kishore's songs for Dev Anand from Joshila, Johny Mera Naam,
or Gambler to even out the age difference factor).
kcp
> Take the song
> "Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho" from the movie Hanste Zakhm. Rafi's voice was
> perfectly suited for that song. I don't think Kishore singing the same
> song (if he could have managed it) would have anywhere near the same
> effect.
What is "same effect" ? Now its my turn to say "That is such a
ridiculous comment. Hard to believe that even learned
members can be such rotten fanboys."
For me it would have been a "better effect" if Kishore sang that
one !!! :-)
kcp
Shalini Razdan
<sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a much-ballyhooed theory. Don't know about Ghantasala, but I
> have never been convinced that Rafi (or Kishore or any playback
> singers) really pulled that off consistently. Can you really tell that
> "Mere Mehboob Tujhe" is for Rajendra Kumar, rather than Dilip Kumar,
> just from the voice? Or that "Ye Purnoor Chehra" (Mohabbat Zindagi
> Hai) is for Dharam, not Shammi?
Not even on Dharam, but Mehmood!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvSYr9Qnr7I
Shalini
vijay...@my-deja.com
You are trying to focus on the "consistently" part. While
the statement may not be true for every song sung, it is
true for at least one combination of actor-singer.
Rafi does make a conscious effort to sing differently for
Johnny Walker. Kishore definitely put on a different sound
for Rishi Kapoor (bachanaa ai hasiino), and for Amitabh.
In contrast, Talat always sounds the same, as do Hemant
and Manna De. Saigal had always the perfect voice for the
actor he was singing for - himself :-) Suraiya falls into that
happy category, too.
Lata, and Shamshad always sound the same, but Asha
definitely puts on a different voice - notably for Rekha in
Umrao Jaan, Ijaazat. In "tuu ruuThaa to mai.n ro duu.Ngi"
(Jawani), she tries very hard to sound school-girlish. Geeta
alters her voice to suit the mood of the song, not necessarily
to go with the on-screen actress.
Chitalkar definitely tried on multiple voices, and Sudesh
Bhosle does that all the time :-p
The enigma for me is Mukesh. He has sung in two distinct
voices, one heavier (e.g., nain dvaar se) and one lighter
(pal bhar hii kii pahachaan me.n), and I am hard put to
predict which voice will show up for what song.
Vijay
[here we are all discussing playback singers, and the
hoo-haa about the Chinese girl in the opening ceremony
of the Olympics is all the more inexplicable]
vijay...@my-deja.com
> historian of Tamil/Telegu cine music and his stupendous works for that
> website. NEXT, look out for the topic: "A 100 film songs by Bhanumati"
> researched by that historian in a chronological order. This is for
> your KNOWLEDGE. Read it thoroughly...enjoy the songs of VENKATESH RAO
> GHANTASALA therein.
>
> Please offer your sincere feedback.
> Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
That should be Ghantasala Venkateswara Rao.
Vijay
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> I have read
> enough of your posts. You are knowledgeable about Hindi film music and
> Hindusthani classical music, and nearly neutral in Rafi-Kishore
> debates. What I call your fanboyism is your judgement on Ghantasala's
> singing vis-a-vis Rafi's singing, when you are in absolutely no
> position to make a judgement call on Ghantasala's singing.
Your entire post rests on the erroneous assumption that I somehow
treat my conclusions and judgements as absolutes - this is RMIM, there
are few absolutes here. Whatever background and experience I have does
extend outside the purely Hindustani realm, though not as prolifically
(yet) on the film side. I have repeatedly said that I am relatively
underexposed to Ghantasala's singing, but I am certainly in a position
to make a call based on what I have heard. I have also said I am
willing to change based on further listening.
Your likening this situation to African-Americans with zero cultural
context commenting on Rafi's romantic songs is a huge stretch. While I
am not a native Telugu speaker, I have been around enough Telugu music
from childhood to be sensitized to its musical nuances and varying
moods if not word-for-word translations.
> By your own admission you haven't heard Ghantasala's singing enough.
> Then, what is the need to justify pathetic suggestions like
> "Ghantasala soundling like someone singing with dentures in the
> mouth".
Ah - the original remark was a thoughtless one. If you were upset by
my throwing my hat into the ring on the heels of it, I understand and
apologize for that.
> There is no need for you to pull down Ghantasala (especially
> when you aren't eligible to do so) to score a few brownie points for
> Rafi.
Where is the question of this, when I pulled down Rafi first? My
remark was not intended to "even the score".
> > Not the point - I am well-acquainted with his *status* in the Telugu
> > film industry, and have no doubt that he has sung songs of different
> > kinds. I was only speculating on what I'd expect to hear from him
> > given what I already know. I also know (at least) a handful of Telugu
> > speakers who feel this way about Ghantasala's romanticism (or lack
> > thereof) after hearing/knowing many more songs than I have.
>
> Going by the same logic, I know few people (hard-core fans of old
> Hindi film songs), who feel the same about Rafi. Just think for a
> moment, how ridiculous it would be, if I took the judgement of these
> people as examples and come to the conclusion that Rafi lacks emotion
> in his voice (and then come and argue with you).
Again, you missed the point - there is no absolute. The opinions of
Hindi Film Music fans who call Rafi's singing emotionless cannot (as
much as I would disagree with them) be summarily dismissed as
ridiculous or incompetent. My only point was just knowing the Telugu
(Hindi) language does not mean you automatically recognize and accept
the portrayal of emotions in Ghantasala's (Rafi's) romantic songs.
> If you really want to know what Telugu people think about Ghantasala's
> "lack of romanticism", why don't you read comments made by them on his
> songs on youtube? A visit to any of the Telugu music forums available
> on the web should be enough to show you what they think about
> Ghantasala's capability to emote.
See above - I was not by any means suggesting that the *majority* of
Telugu music listeners don't buy Ghantasala's romanticism.
> Nope. You don't have to have the same conclusion that I do. But try to
> understand that your conclusions (in this case) aren't absolute. This
> is the code for saying: When it comes to subjective matters, the world
> doesn't necessarily have to think the same way as I do.
I have never felt otherwise - you and I are vehemently in agreement
here.
To your other point, I do agree that Rafi and KK have changed their
voices dramatically in different songs, and even before hearing the
example you cite, I don't fundamentally believe Ghantasala was somehow
incapable of this.
Sanjeev
UVR
Also, Sanjeev, AFAIK, is not Tamilian (in the first place).
-UVR.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Depends on who you ask - Dad is a Palakkad Iyer, Mom is Maharashtrian.
Yours truly is of course US-born and raised. Jayaraman's labeling me
as "phoren" on account of my birthplace/home is like me calling him
"senile" (solely) on account of his professed age.
Sanjeev
ukun...@gmail.com
when you have the time.
11. Pelli Chesukuni from Pelli Chesi Choodu (Ghantasala's own music
direction)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V71cpnAl8o0
12. RajaSekhara from Anarkali in 1955 (the music director is Adi
Narayana Rao, who also composed Haayi Haayiga/Kuhu Kuhu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYH-vYEXKWg
Enjoy.
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sanjeev:
Trust me: I sincerely wanted to tell you the early years of VRG.
Believe me, VRG has a voice, truly potential and colorful in the
sense: P.Bhanumati always used to encourage him and in and around 1946
or so he joined MD: C.R.Subbaraman as an assistant. This was the
'launching pad' for him to take off. CRS was prolific as a music
composer in Tamil as well as Telugu in the days when G.Ramanathan was
at the top.
You must hear VRS' numbers in Bharani Prodns : LEILA MAJNU ('49). They
are mostly duets with Bhanumati...very melodiously rendered.
Similarly, there is one 6-minute beautiful chorus by Bhanumati / VRG
from NALLA THAMBI ('49). In this Arabian styled chorus,veryn
attractively composed by CRS. Ghantasala joins the chorus towards the
end humming a couple of lines. Next in 1952. Bharani's yet another
film: KAADHAL had 2 beautiful duets by Ghantasala with Bhanumati under
CRS. You must hear this absolutely melodious duet.
The point I am want to stress is that Ghantasala IMBIBED plenty under
the apprenticeship of C.R.Subbaraman as regards to MUSIC COMPOSING &
SINGING.
Unfortunaately, DEATH snatched away CRS at the young age of 28 in 1950
Even in Bharani's CHANDI RANI ('51) music director CRS was signed by
her true admirer, Bhanumati. But, in this film CRS aftert composing 3
songs, passed away. The vacuum was filled by the upcoming duo:
Vishwanathan-Ramamurthy who composed the all time hit duet by
Bhanumati / Ghantasala" Vaanmeethiley...(In Tamil) & Chanda taley...by
Bhanumati / Talat in Hindi. I believe the same duet was also recorded
in Telugu version by Bhanumati / VRG.
These Rafi fans should be completely BOWLED with the above info.
Remember, I am also a Rafi admirer. I never undermine his capability.
Thats it !!
Jay
20/8
Srinivas Ganti
> Unfortunaately, DEATH snatched away CRS at the young age of 28 in 1950
> Even in Bharani's CHANDI RANI ('51) music director CRS was signed by
> her true admirer, Bhanumati. But, in this film CRS aftert composing 3
> songs, passed away. The vacuum was filled by the upcoming duo:
> Vishwanathan-Ramamurthy who composed the all time hit duet by
> Bhanumati / Ghantasala" Vaanmeethiley...(In Tamil) & Chanda taley...by
> Bhanumati / Talat in Hindi. I believe the same duet was also recorded
> in Telugu version by Bhanumati / VRG.
>
Yes it was recorded in Telugu as well. It goes "o taraka, o jabili"
and is on the Ghantasala favorite
duets I am going to post soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSl2SpkabFQ
Srinivas.
ukun...@gmail.com
> Yes it was recorded in Telugu as well. It goes "o taraka, o jabili"
> and is on the Ghantasala favorite
> duets I am going to post soon.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSl2SpkabFQ
>
> Srinivas.
What a beautiful song. Bhanumati is an amazing all-rounder
(considering her times, it must be doubly great) - an actress, singer,
director, music director.
On an unrelated note (was reminded of it, by looking at NTR's dress
code), songs of Jayasimha are very good too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mSTYnQ-Ejg
There is another song in this movie, "Madi Loni Madhura Bhaavam".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMn-rfEzofA&feature=related
I think this song was also sung in Hindi by Manna Dey (not sure
though).
BTW, is this 1955 movie the first full-fledged Telugu movie of Waheeda
Rehman?
I know she did that very famous song in Rojulu Marayi earlier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Kj7zKpT10
Srinivas Ganti
> > Yes it was recorded in Telugu as well. It goes "o taraka, o jabili"
> > and is on the Ghantasala favorite
> > duets I am going to post soon.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSl2SpkabFQ
>
> > Srinivas.
>
> What a beautiful song. Bhanumati is an amazing all-rounder
> (considering her times, it must be doubly great) - an actress, singer,
> director, music director.
>
> On an unrelated note (was reminded of it, by looking at NTR's dress
>
> There is another song in this movie, "Madi Loni Madhura Bhaavam".http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMn-rfEzofA&feature=related
>
> I think this song was also sung in Hindi by Manna Dey (not sure
> though).
Yes. It has a Lata-Mannadey version "man veena madhur
bole" (Jaysingh). Jayasimha was made as Jaysingh in Hindi.
> BTW, is this 1955 movie the first full-fledged Telugu movie of Waheeda
> Rehman?
Yes.
Bhuvanesh
> The second song of ghantasala sahab, which is similar to rafi sahab’s
> chal ud ja re panchi, is composed in yaman rag and is the famous
> kalyan rag of carnatic. Again ghantasala sahab dominates, i.e. his
> pitch is more high than rafi sahab’s song and the voice also more
> melodious.
A comparison based on high pitches is simply ridiculous; this is not a
"who can get the highest pitch" competition. Sometimes a song simply
should not have high pitches; it depends on the content of the song.
For example, the Lata song, "Haaye Jiya Roye" sounds unnatural at such
a high pitch -- it would be ok for other songs, just not for that one.
Given the lyrics in the Hindi version of "Chal Ud Ja Re Panchhi",
Rafi's pitch in the song is just fine -- a significantly higher pitch
would not suit the song.
Bhuvanesh
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Your assertions aside, on what basis is anyone saying that
Ghantasala's pitch is higher than Rafi's in the Telugu version of
"Chal Ud Ja Re"? As far as I remember, it is not the case.
Sanjeev
Bhuvanesh
That was the claim by someone the OP (Altaican) quoted.
Honestly, I personally can't compare Ghantasala and Rafi -- to me,
they each have their own strengths. I loved both versions of "Kuhu
Kuhu Bole." I was just commenting on the pitch thing -- just because
something is sung at higher pitch doesn't automatically make it
"better."
Bhuvanesh
anwarka...@gmail.com
Rafi Sahab was a playback singer and sings all tyoes of songs with ease. Ghantasala is a classical singer, rather and is beaten by even Kishoreda in melodious songs. If you compare Sala with Barey Ghulam Ali Khan, Ganta will fall straight on his face.
vanget...@gmail.com
vanget...@gmail.com
vanget...@gmail.com
vanget...@gmail.com
vanget...@gmail.com
vanget...@gmail.com
shu...@gmail.com
> Ghantasala is the best singer of telugu cinema industry because of his contribution to music
shu...@gmail.com
abcd...@gmail.com
> This Mr Khan is definitely a GanduSala fan and is lying that he is a Muhammad Rafi fan. He is a Hindu Prejudice, with no indepth knowledge.
> Rafi Sahab was a playback singer and sings all tyoes of songs with ease. Ghantasala is a classical singer, rather and is beaten by even Kishoreda in melodious songs. If you compare Sala with Barey Ghulam Ali Khan, Ganta will fall straight on his face.
magbu...@gmail.com
> This is a pretty long post. I had been to a Rafi fan website recently.
> In one of the forums, an interesting debate started between the
> capabilities of Rafi against that of a South Indian (Telugu) film
> playback singer named Ghantasala. The debate slowly culminated in mud-
> slinging and name-calling before supporters of Ghantasala were
> requested to find another board to post about their idol's
> capabilities (understandably, since it was a Rafi website). In any
> case, there were quite a few interesting posts during the debate (some
> of which I am quoting in this post).
>
> My purpose in posting this here is to clarify if these posters are
> talking sense when it comes to classical music or if they are just
> blowing hot-air using half-baked classical music terms (I have zero
> knowledge of classical music). I am posting a couple of posts of one
> Mr.Khan. Can someone verify if the raags that he has mentioned
> actually correspond to the songs?
>
> The website is here (there are plenty of posts, I am just quoting the
> ones that I am interested in below)
> http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
>
> These are the songs of Ghantasala put forth by his followers, some of
> whom claim that neither Rafi nor Manna Dey can sing classical songs
> with as much ease and perfection that Ghantasala can.
>
> 1. Shiva Shankaree:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
>
> 2. Jaya Bheri
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAB7Q1pvcpw
>
> 3. Maya Bazaar
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA
>
> 4. Telugu version of "Chal Ud ja Re Panchi"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nra86TX__hc
>
> 5. Telugu original of famous Kuhu-Kuhu bole
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxnuuX_hZQ
>
> There was one poster in the Rafi fan board called Khan, who claims he
> has 35+ years in classical music. After hearing the first song (Shiva
> Shankaree) of Ghantasala, he writes (I wish I could provide a direct
> URL link to the exact message, which would shorten this message quite
> a bit, in case it is too lengthy to read, please please read posts
> numbering 611, 612, 613, 616, 620, 621, 627, 628, 639, 643 and 645 on
> the following webpage, especially posts 612 and 645,
> http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
> ):
> Khan: " Thank you very much for the link and song. I am a hindusthani
> musician with a small experience of only 35 plus years. I have seen
> many concerts of many hindusthani musicians and rafi sahab is one of
> my favourite hindusthani singer.
> Ref. your post 608 , I have carefully heard the shiva shankari song
> here by ghantasala thrice and his voice range. I am not able to stop
> acknowledging the wonderful presentation by this south indian legend.
> With my experience, I can say that the song is based on the darbari
> kannad rag, and during my life time I have not heard anybody rendering
> the rag in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did. Not even rafi
> sahab could render in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did (for
> instance o duniya ke rakhwale from baiju bawra film in the rag). In
> this song, ghantasala has touched the top ni note in the top range (no
> bollywood song or rafi sahab song has been composed in that top range
> and it is very difficult to sing there) and in the same way the lowest
> dha note in the lower range with ease and comfort and shifting notes
> with complete clarity which is possible only for a singer (like
> ghantasala sahab) with complete command over a rag.
> The speciality of the legend in this song is without sacrificing his
> carnatic style he has created a hindusthani sensation thus mixing the
> blend of both styles and which is possible only for a gifted and
> creative singer. I feel in my humble experience even the great rafi
> sahab has not reached that level in singing telugu songs because he
> sounds only hindusthani but could not sound the carnatic style. (I
> have heard rafi sahab’s telugu songs)
> Mr. gani, the voice, highpitch, clarity and command over rag are in
> complete harmony and perfection by ghantasala and full 100 marks to
> him. I have never heard such song in my life and perhaps bollywood or
> rafi sahab has no such type of song to their credit. This point will
> be completely agreed by hindi fans of rafi sahab also after they hear
> this shiva shankari song by ghantasala
> I request, binu nair ji and other hindi friends, to be secular and
> without prejudice kindly listen to the song in post 608 and I fully
> guarantee that you might not have heard such song in your lifetime. I
> being a musician, am forced to acknowledge this, despite being a great
> rafi fan, because as a musician I have to do justice to the correct
> musician. Pl. don’t mistake me, but in this particular song, I have to
> give credit to ghantasala sahab ( you too have to give after you hear
> him)
> Finally binu nair ji (your post pl. 609), I am an elderly man with 55
> plus years. I feel that you will change your opinion of the word
> second as stated in your message after you hear shiva shankari song in
> post 608, my request is whatever your opinion may be, please hear once
> the song here (you wil hear again once you hear it specially the last
> 1 minute in the song) and post your views with open and pure
> conscience. I am also a great rafi fan and man with hindusthani
> knowledge pl. you may kindly note."
>
>
> After hearing the songs 3, 4 and 5 listed above of Ghantasala, Mr.Khan
> writes:
> "I have heard all 3 songs. I can say only one thing. What a stupendous
> melodious voice is of ghantasala sahab, While hearing i was only
> thinking this : Why I missed such singer all these years. Simply
> marvellous and incomparable.
>
> this is my analysis for all the 3 songs.
>
> The first song duet Lahiri Lahiri from mayabazar film is composed in
> the bhoop raga which corresponds to the mohan of carnatic. The
> composition is par excellence and ghantasala sahab singing the rag is
> even more par excellence and simply incomparable. A stupendous
> presentation and equal incomparable soft and melodious voice is the
> voice of ghantasala. The lady singer’s voice is also fine.
> The second song of ghantasala sahab, which is similar to rafi sahab’s
> chal ud ja re panchi, is composed in yaman rag and is the famous
> kalyan rag of carnatic. Again ghantasala sahab dominates, i.e. his
> pitch is more high than rafi sahab’s song and the voice also more
> pitches ( i again recall shiva shankari song). Rafi sahab has excelled
> in this song in his usual hindusthani style but on comparison of both
> songs, my analysis is ghantasala sahab dominates in this song.
>
> The third song by ghantasala sahab and krishnaveni behan is the famous
> one from suvarna sundari film which is the kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya by
> rafi-lata pair in hindi. This is a mixture of numerous rags and the
> music composer deserves the appreciations and also ghantasala sahab
> for having rendered a par excellence beauty to the song (again i
> recall shiva shankari song). The depth of classical music and
> presentation by ghantasala sahab is simply supreme what I can say.
> Since this song was first sung in telugu, rafi sahab might have
> definitely heard this prior to his singing, but I don’t know why he
> could not dominate (whereas ghantasala sahab has dominated in chal ud
> ja re panchi after it was sung by rafi sahab). As usual, rafi sahab
> has sung in his beautiful and melodious voice in his hindusthani style
> but the depth in the rag and music, which is present in full form in
> ghantasala sahab’s voice is lacking in voice of rafi sahab. Ghantasala
> sahab’s voice (in the last para of the song - last 4 lines) is super
> melodious. Rafi sahab’s melody is equally attractive, but the
> difference lies in depth of melody and classical music where
> ghantasala sahab displays an edge. The main difference everybody
> (especially musicians) can note easily in this song is:
>
> Ghantasala sahab is at complete ease and having full control over the
> rag and is without any discomfort in the entire song whereas I have
> noticed rafi sahab struggling and facing discomfort to some extent in
> some places (especially the rag in the beginning) and the last 4
> lines. This may be due to the composition of the song in the carnatic
> style, whereas ghantasala sahab is master thereby enabling him to
> dominate. I personally feel that this song, since has shades of
> carnatic music, must have been rendered by ghantasala sahab (with
> little practice of hindi language) and lataji in hindi instead of rafi-
> lata wherein it would have become much famous.
>
> Lata Mangeshkar is at her usual best in this song, and the telugu lady
> singer, though perfect in classical rendering of the song, falls back
> behind lata’s rendering. "
>
>
>
> ~Altaican