Those who are interested in Hum Dono
ian
excerpt from a website
CHANNEL 4 BOLLYWOOD SEASON
The major UK television station Channel 4 continues its on-going
celebration of Hindi cinema with a season of twenty hand picked films
introduced by Bollywood Celebrities, every Sunday and Monday from
Sunday July 27 2003. The movie's director or cast member will
introduce each film in the 20-title season and recount memories from
their personal experiences.
Highlights of the season include:
Hrithik Roshan introduces the movie and recalls with a glint in his
eye what happened when he saw the first screening of Kaho Na Pyaar Hai
in a Bombay cinema. "In three hours, my entire life changed. When I
went into the cinema to see the first show on the first day, no one
knew me, and when I came out, the police had to be called to save me
from the mob".
Director Madhur Bhandarkar introduces Chandni Bar and explains why the
story of women down on their luck and who are forced to work as
dancers/prostitutes moved him enough to make them the heroines of his
first film.
Sharmila Tagore introduces Kashmir Ki Kali (The Flower of Kashmir).
Now in her early 60s and as charming as ever. Married to famous Indian
cricketer and prince, Nawab Pataudi, and mother of current star, Saif
Ali Khan, she looks back nostalgically to the time when this film was
made.
Dev Anand introduces Hum Dono and explains how he asked poet Sahir to
write a song for the film based on the same meter as a famous Urdu
poem, and how this led to the writing of Abhi na jao chor kar which
remains among the most beautiful love songs in popular cinema. Dev
Anand's old world appeal has not faded nor have the charms of the
gentle Hum Dono with its anti-war theme and musical excellence.
Naseerudin Shah introduces Masoom, explaining why this intimate drama
is his favourite despite the many more ambitious movies he has worked
on over the years. He also explains how much he learned about acting
from director Shekhar Kapur and the important lessons Masoom taught
him about working with children.
Farhan Akhtar introduces Dil Chahta Hai and explains how the film came
to be made, what makes it unique and how he personally feels about its
tremendous success.
Mera Naam Joker is introduced by Randhir Kapoor (Raj Kapoor's eldest
son who now runs RK Studios in Bombay and is an actor in his own
right). Talking candidly of his experiences as the son of a film icon,
Randhir Kapoor remembers how much this film meant to his father. It
was a mammoth production that took six years to make, nearly
bankrupting him in the process. When the film was released, it did not
do well at the box-office despite its strong story-line, great music
and fine performances but today it is recognised as a classic of Hindi
cinema.
In the introduction to Aks, Amitabh Bachchan, who also produced the
film, talks about his work with director Rakesh Mehra and explains how
the film is based on the many tales in Hindu mythology in which good
triumphs over evil. Bachchan also explains how the hit song of the
film was inspired by Raj Kapoor's famous dream sequence number in
Awaara.
In her introduction to Fire, actress and political activist Shabana
Azmi explains why this will always remain such an important film in
her career and such an important work in the context of Indian cinema
as a whole, showing a side of Indian life rarely considered by the
more commercially-minded Hindi film producers.
Kuch Kuch Hota Hai brought extraordinary success to its young
director, Karan Johar, who in the introduction to his first film
explains how the story came together in his mind as he was walking
along Oxford Street, and also recounts how he was moved to tears when
directing a scene from this lively Bollywood blockbuster.
Happy viewing some these being shown on Sundays daytime other after
midnight weekdays UK time
Satish Kalra
news:41c1f61b.03072...@posting.google.com...
> Channel Four announces a season of Bollywood, Tollywood etc
>
> excerpt from a website
> CHANNEL 4 BOLLYWOOD SEASON
...snipped...
>
> Happy viewing
What! A "viewing" is never a happy occasion. :-)
some these being shown on Sundays daytime other after
> midnight weekdays UK time
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra
UVR
>
> Dev Anand introduces Hum Dono and explains how he asked poet Sahir to
> write a song for the film based on the same meter as a famous Urdu
> poem, and how this led to the writing of Abhi na jao chor kar which
> remains among the most beautiful love songs in popular cinema. Dev
> Anand's old world appeal has not faded nor have the charms of the
> gentle Hum Dono with its anti-war theme and musical excellence.
Any idea which 'famous' Urdu poem is being talked about here?
If someone ends up watching the Dev Anand introduction (or if
anyone already knows which poem it is), please do let me know.
Many TIA.
The only other film song I can, at the moment, recall, in the
same meter as "abhI na jaao chho.D kar" is -- Shahryar's Umrao
Jaan song, 'ye kyaa jagah hai dosto? ye kaun saa dayaar hai?'
animesh kumar
movie itself had one more "sukh aur dukh ke raaste, bane hai.n sabake
waaste" (Asha).
best regards
Animesh
Just a guess, does the following fits in ;;; I am unaware of meter
standards -
shaam e firaaq ab na puuchh | aa_ii aur aake Tal ga_ii
abhii na jao chho.Dakar | ke dil abhii bharaa nahii.n
UVR
> > > Dev Anand introduces Hum Dono and explains how he asked poet Sahir to
> > > write a song for the film based on the same meter as a famous Urdu
> > > poem, and how this led to the writing of Abhi na jao chor kar which
> > > remains among the most beautiful love songs in popular cinema. Dev
> > > Anand's old world appeal has not faded nor have the charms of the
> > > gentle Hum Dono with its anti-war theme and musical excellence.
> >
> > Any idea which 'famous' Urdu poem is being talked about here?
> >
> > If someone ends up watching the Dev Anand introduction (or if
> > anyone already knows which poem it is), please do let me know.
> > Many TIA.
> >
> > The only other film song I can, at the moment, recall, in the
> > same meter as "abhI na jaao chho.D kar" is -- Shahryar's Umrao
> > Jaan song, 'ye kyaa jagah hai dosto? ye kaun saa dayaar hai?'
>
> movie itself had one more "sukh aur dukh ke raaste, bane hai.n sabake
> waaste" (Asha).
You're absolutely right, of course, but isn't this more or less the
same song as "abhii na jaao chho.D kar"? ;)
Anyway, I think I have finally figured out what that 'famous' Urdu
poem actually is. And, as usually happens in such cases, I now feel
like a total idiot for not recalling it earlier. It has got to be,
hasn't it, that phenomenally popular poem by Hafeez Jalandhari --
abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N, abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N
hawaa bhI Khush_gawaar hai, gulo.n pe bhI nikhaar hai
tarannume.n hazaar hai.n, bahaar pur_bahaar hai ...
"Oh, what a fool I was, what an addle-pated fool, what a mutton-
headed dolt was I," to let this poem slip my mind!
Anyway, all we need now is for someone to watch the Channel 4 program
Ian mentioned and confirm that my guess is correct.
> Just a guess, does the following fits in ;;; I am unaware of meter
> standards -
>
> shaam e firaaq ab na puuchh | aa_ii aur aake Tal ga_ii
> abhii na jao chho.Dakar | ke dil abhii bharaa nahii.n
No, these are not in the same meter. Without going into too much
technicality, let me just say that "shaam-e-firaaq ab na poochh"
is in the meter of "dil hi to hai na sang-o-Khisht".
Here's a(nother) song that IS in the meter of "abhI na jaao" --
ye teraa ghar ye meraa ghar, kisii ko dekhnaa ho gar, to pahle aa ke
maa.Ng le, merii nazar, terii nazar; ye teraa ghar, ye meraa ghar,
ye ghar bahut hasiin hai" [Saath Saath].
And then there's the "patriotic" marching song composed by Salil C.
which I had learnt in school (and which the kind Dr. Arunabha Roy had
mentioned on RMIM a while back): tuu zindaa hai to zindagii kii jeet
par yaqeen kar, agar kahee.n hai swarg to utaar laa zameen par.
-UVR.
PS: And, oh-btw, before someone mentions it, that OTHER 'abhI to
mai.n jawaan huu.N', the Lata M. one made popular by Radio Ceylon,
... that song's not in the same meter as Hafeez J's poem.
Irfan Moinuddin
> "animesh kumar" <ani...@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote in message news:<bfmahn$gguva$1...@ID-182469.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > > > Dev Anand introduces Hum Dono and explains how he asked poet Sahir to
> > > > write a song for the film based on the same meter as a famous Urdu
> > > > poem, and how this led to the writing of Abhi na jao chor kar which
> > > > remains among the most beautiful love songs in popular cinema. Dev
> > > > Anand's old world appeal has not faded nor have the charms of the
> > > > gentle Hum Dono with its anti-war theme and musical excellence.
> > >
> > > Any idea which 'famous' Urdu poem is being talked about here?
> > >
> > > If someone ends up watching the Dev Anand introduction (or if
> > > anyone already knows which poem it is), please do let me know.
> > > Many TIA.
> > >
> > > The only other film song I can, at the moment, recall, in the
> > > same meter as "abhI na jaao chho.D kar" is -- Shahryar's Umrao
> > > Jaan song, 'ye kyaa jagah hai dosto? ye kaun saa dayaar hai?'
The syllabic variation in the two songs mentioned above is the
following:
MMSMMS MMSMMS MMSMMS MMSMMS
It is a catalectic variant. One could derive it from the following
two meters via the catalexis mentioned:
1) Behr Hijz, maqbuz
2) Behr Rijz, makhbun
Going from the lines mentioned in this thread so far, it is not
possible to determine which behr is the source of the syllabic
periodicity mentioned above.
If I took the trouble to listen to the whole song, it should come
easily.
> >
> > movie itself had one more "sukh aur dukh ke raaste, bane hai.n sabake
> > waaste" (Asha).
This sher "sukh aUr dukh kE rAstE" is in conformity with behr rijz.
>
> You're absolutely right, of course, but isn't this more or less the
> same song as "abhii na jaao chho.D kar"? ;)
IF they comprise the same song, as mentioned by UVR, then one could
conclude that "abhI na jAo chOd kar" is in behr rijz.
>
> Anyway, I think I have finally figured out what that 'famous' Urdu
> poem actually is. And, as usually happens in such cases, I now feel
> like a total idiot for not recalling it earlier. It has got to be,
> hasn't it, that phenomenally popular poem by Hafeez Jalandhari --
>
> abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N, abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N
>
> hawaa bhI Khush_gawaar hai, gulo.n pe bhI nikhaar hai
> tarannume.n hazaar hai.n, bahaar pur_bahaar hai ...
this is a catalectic version.
>
> "Oh, what a fool I was, what an addle-pated fool, what a mutton-
> headed dolt was I," to let this poem slip my mind!
>
> Anyway, all we need now is for someone to watch the Channel 4 program
> Ian mentioned and confirm that my guess is correct.
>
> > Just a guess, does the following fits in ;;; I am unaware of meter
> > standards -
> >
> > shaam e firaaq ab na puuchh | aa_ii aur aake Tal ga_ii
> > abhii na jao chho.Dakar | ke dil abhii bharaa nahii.n
shAm-E-firAq ab na pUch, AaI aur AakE tal gayI
Dil thA ke phir bahal gayA, jAN thI ke phir sambhal gayI
The above ghazal is in behr rijz
>
> No, these are not in the same meter. Without going into too much
> technicality, let me just say that "shaam-e-firaaq ab na poochh"
> is in the meter of "dil hi to hai na sang-o-Khisht".
Hence, the above assertion that "abhI na jAo chOd kar" is not in the
same meter as "shAm-E-firAq" is incorrect. Their use of catalexis is
different.
>
> Here's a(nother) song that IS in the meter of "abhI na jaao" --
> ye teraa ghar ye meraa ghar, kisii ko dekhnaa ho gar, to pahle aa ke
> maa.Ng le, merii nazar, terii nazar; ye teraa ghar, ye meraa ghar,
> ye ghar bahut hasiin hai" [Saath Saath].
"ye tErA ghar, ye mErA ghar" is in behr hijz.
If written thus: "yE tEra ghar, yE mEra ghar", then it would be rijz.
Irfan Moinuddin
Afzal A. Khan
UVR wrote:
> "animesh kumar" <ani...@eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote in message news:<bfmahn$gguva$1...@ID-182469.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > > > Dev Anand introduces Hum Dono and explains how he asked poet Sahir to
> > > > write a song for the film based on the same meter as a famous Urdu
> > > > poem, and how this led to the writing of Abhi na jao chor kar which
> > > > remains among the most beautiful love songs in popular cinema.
>
>
> Anyway, I think I have finally figured out what that 'famous' Urdu
> poem actually is. And, as usually happens in such cases, I now feel
> like a total idiot for not recalling it earlier. It has got to be,
> hasn't it, that phenomenally popular poem by Hafeez Jalandhari --
>
> abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N, abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N
>
> hawaa bhI Khush_gawaar hai, gulo.n pe bhI nikhaar hai
> tarannume.n hazaar hai.n, bahaar pur_bahaar hai ...
>
>
> -UVR.
>
If it wasn't UVR, I won't be sending this
response.
The second line quoted from the famous Hafeez
poem should actually read :
"Tarannum-e-hazaar hai"
Also, the poem, IIRC, is in the "musaddas"
format, i.e. each stanza contains six lines.
Afzal
UVR
>
> Hence, the above assertion that "abhI na jAo chOd kar" is not in the
> same meter as "shAm-E-firAq" is incorrect. Their use of catalexis is
> different.
You couldn't be more wrong.
This is very easy to prove without going into too much detail
about the names of meters and stuff like that. Behold:
[1 = short syllable, 2 = long syllable]
(1) "abhI na jAo chhO.D kar ke dil abhI bharA nahI.n" conforms
to the syllabic pattern:
1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 -- 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2
(2) "shAm-e-firAq ab na pUchh, Ayi aur Aa ke Tal gayI" conforms
to the syllabic pattern:
2 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 -- 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 2
Pay close attention to the leading two syllables of the two
'segments' of the syllabic pattern.
QED.
Further discussion about this aspect (meter) does not belong
on RMIM. It should either be directed to the newsgroup ALUP,
which is devoted to Urdu poetry, or you can send me an e-mail
and we can hash this out (uvr at hotmail dot com).
-UVR.
UVR
>
> UVR wrote:
>
>> abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N, abhii to mai.n jawaan huu.N
>>
>> hawaa bhI Khush_gawaar hai, gulo.n pe bhI nikhaar hai
>> tarannume.n hazaar hai.n, bahaar pur_bahaar hai ...
>
> poem should actually read :
>
> "Tarannum-e-hazaar hai"
Thanks for the correction, Afzal saahib.
> Also, the poem, IIRC, is in the "musaddas"
> format, i.e. each stanza contains six lines.
Are you classifying Hafeez's poem is a musaddas? It does not
look like one to me. For instance, the first 'stanza' has many
more than six lines:
hawaa bhI Khush_gawaar hai, gulo.n pe bhI nikhaar hai
tarannum-e-hazaar hai, bahaar pur_bahaar hai
kahaa.N chalaa hai saaqiyaa, idhar to lauT idhar to aa
are, ye dekhtaa hai kyaa? uThaa subuu! subuu uThaa!
subuu uThaa, piyaalaa bhar, piyaalaa bhar ke de idhar
chaman kI samt kar nazar, samaa.N to dekh beKhabar
wo kaalI kaalI badliyaa.N, ufaq pe ho gayii.n ayaa.N
wo ik hujoom-e-maikashaa.N, hai soo-e-maikadaa rawaa.N
ye kyaa gumaa.N hai, bad_gumaa.N? samajh na mujh ko naatavaa.N
Khayaal-e-zohd abhI kahaa.N? -- abhI to mai.n jawaan huu.N
Sahir's film song could be classified as a musaddas, perhaps,
but the first stanza has only 5 lines:
http://thaxi.hsc.usc.edu/rmim/cisb//ASCII/142.isb
One could theoretically add the repetition of the 'abhI na
jaao chho.D kar' line to the end of the first stanza and
convert it into a musaddas, but I don't know if Sahir himself
intended it that way or not. Perhaps someone who has a copy
of "gaataa jaaye banjaaraa" (book of Sahir's film poetry)
could check and let us know how this song is recorded there.
Guri? (I know he has a copy -- perhaps others do too).
-UVR.
Vinay
> Afzal A. Khan wrote:
<deleted>
> but the first stanza has only 5 lines:
> http://thaxi.hsc.usc.edu/rmim/cisb//ASCII/142.isb
> One could theoretically add the repetition of the 'abhI na
> jaao chho.D kar' line to the end of the first stanza and
> convert it into a musaddas, but I don't know if Sahir himself
> intended it that way or not. Perhaps someone who has a copy
> of "gaataa jaaye banjaaraa" (book of Sahir's film poetry)
> could check and let us know how this song is recorded there.
> Guri? (I know he has a copy -- perhaps others do too).
The book version has only five lines as part of the stanza. There *is*
but only a *half* sixth line - 'ki dil abhii bharaa nahii.n'. So it
falls a little short to be 'musaddas' :)(not that it takes anything
from the nazm). In the film song, as you know, it is repeated in full
- 'abhii na jaao chho.Dakar ki dil abhii bharaa nahii.n' - which is
more like a return to mukha.Daa.
Vinay
>
> -UVR.
Irfan Moinuddin
> Irfan Moinuddin wrote:
> >
> > Hence, the above assertion that "abhI na jAo chOd kar" is not in the
> > same meter as "shAm-E-firAq" is incorrect. Their use of catalexis is
> > different.
>
> You couldn't be more wrong.
>
> This is very easy to prove without going into too much detail
> about the names of meters and stuff like that. Behold:
>
> [1 = short syllable, 2 = long syllable]
>
You and I have discussed this before. You still sing the same old
song. :-)
Urdu meter is done according to mutaharik and sakin syllables, not by
short and long syllables. There are nineteen standard urdu meters,
derived from the persian and arabic. There are many variations to
these meters, these variations are identified according to their
associated standard meter and the accompanying catalexis. Also, I
must emphasize that you cannot really do a metric analysis on an
isolated line. You really need to read many ash'ar before you
determine what meter, a particular sher or ghazal is in. Thus, your
analysis, which begins with the analysis of isolated lines, is
fundamentally flawed. I recognize your ability to decipher
periodicity in long and short syllables but there is much more to urdu
prosody than that.
Now, let's proceed with the analysis:
Although one misses a lot of nuances and insight when analyzing ash'ar
outside of the mutaharik/sakin nomenclature, I will do an analysis
with long and short syllables, since it may be more readily
understood:
> (1) "abhI na jAo chhO.D kar ke dil abhI bharA nahI.n" conforms
> to the syllabic pattern:
> 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 -- 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2
>
This line is not in one of the standard meters. It is in zahafat,
catalexis.
Meters are comprised of feet, just like in english. For example,
iambic pentameter, which is shakespeare's favourite meter, has the
following feet:
1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2
Notice, each foot is 1 2. Incidentally, if you were to analyze the
word
iamb...you would score it 1 2! Notice the meter is called iambic
pentameter.
Why pentameter? Because there are five feet in each line.
Now, back to urdu: There is no standard urdu foot that follows 1 2
1 2.
That foot only occurs by the use of zahafat/catalexis.
> (2) "shAm-e-firAq ab na pUchh, Ayi aur Aa ke Tal gayI" conforms
> to the syllabic pattern:
> 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 -- 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 2
>
Now, let us look at the second misra of this sher and also at one or
two other ash'ar in this ghazal.
Dil thA ke phir bahal gayA, jAN thI ke phir sambhal gayI
2 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 2
Now, analyze further: there are four feet in each misra of a
musamman ghazal. Let us break it down into feet.
Each foot in this ghazal follows this pattern: 2 2 1 2
This foot is given the phonetic name: mustAfilun
It has this pattern of Mutaharik/Sakin letters: MSMSMMS
So, a ghazal in the standard meter would be:
2 2 1 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 2
But, wait! The second foot above is 1 2 1 2!
Why? Zahafat or catalexis.
Now, compose a ghazal entirely in the catalectic form 1 2 1 2
and you get
abhI na jAo chOd kE ke dil abhI bharA nahIN
1 2 1 21 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2
For your information, the behr is called rijz.
And the catalectic version is called: behr rijz, zahaf makhbun
Can you randomly use zahafat? No! There are many rules
binding the usage of zahafat.
Now, regarding the use of the words musaddas and musamman...
Realize that ash'ar can be composed of one, two, three, four, six, and
eight feet. There is also a meter composed of sixteen feet.
The ghazal we've been discussing is in the usual eight feet (per
couplet),
that is four feet per misra. That is called musamman.
I found that Afzal referred to a poem being musaddas because it
consisted of six lines. Now, the word musaddas can even be used to
refer to a hexagon. But, usually, when one says that a ghazal is in
musaddas or musamman meter, the reference is to the number of feet in
each sher and
not to how may lines there are in the poem.
> QED
>
What is QED?
> Further discussion about this aspect (meter) does not belong
> on RMIM. It should either be directed to the newsgroup ALUP,
> which is devoted to Urdu poetry, or you can send me an e-mail
> and we can hash this out (uvr at hotmail dot com).
>
I agree that this topic is perhaps no longer relevant to rmim. I
personally don't travel on alup. I am studying to take the internal
medicine boards and will be studying for a month or so. I may have
time
to field questions after then.
Irfan Moinuddin
> -UVR.
Irfan Moinuddin
Each foot in this ghazal follows this pattern: 2 2 1 2
This foot is given the phonetic name: mustAfilun
^^^^^^^^^^^
It should be mustaf'ilun
It has this pattern of Mutaharik/Sakin letters: MSMSMMS
For your information, the behr is called rijz.
^^^^^^
The behr is called rajaz.
And the catalectic version is called: behr rijz, zahaf makhbun
^^^^^
Same here.
Irfan Moinuddin
Afzal A. Khan
Irfan Moinuddin wrote:
>
>
> I found that Afzal referred to a poem being musaddas because it
> consisted of six lines. Now, the word musaddas can even be used to
> refer to a hexagon. But, usually, when one says that a ghazal is in
> musaddas or musamman meter, the reference is to the number of feet in
> each sher and
> not to how may lines there are in the poem.
>
> > QED
> >
>
> What is QED?
>
Irfan, I wasn't referring to the meter.
Words like "MuKHammas" or "Musaddas" when
applied to any nazm usually refer to the
number of lines it has in each stanza.
Unless one is specifically talking in the
context of its meter. When people talk about
Hali's "Musaddas", they are certainly not
referring to its meter.
QED. I doubt whether there is anyone out
there who doesn't know this. (Quod Erat
Demonstrandum. Did I get it right ?)
UVR probably meant that the proposition he
had set out to prove had in fact been
proved.
Even though this sort of discussion may not
be relevant to RMIM, it has been an exhili-
rating experience going through this "duel"
between Irfan and UVR. One is a medico and
the other a computer specialist. And here
they are discussing Urdu Prosody with all
its abstruse terms. Says a lot about their
catholicity of interests and the intensity
of their quest for learning --- more so in
the case of UVR, who didn't have Urdu as his
mother tongue. Kudos to both of them.
Afzal
UVR
irfanmo...@yahoo.com (Irfan Moinuddin) wrote in message news:<7a0d3efc.03072...@posting.google.com>...
> UVR <u...@usa.net> wrote in message news:<vi1hs12...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > Irfan Moinuddin wrote:
> > >
> > > Hence, the above assertion that "abhI na jAo chOd kar" is not in the
> > > same meter as "shAm-E-firAq" is incorrect. Their use of catalexis is
> > > different.
> >
> > You couldn't be more wrong.
> >
> > This is very easy to prove without going into too much detail
> > about the names of meters and stuff like that. Behold:
> >
> > [1 = short syllable, 2 = long syllable]
>
> You and I have discussed this before. You still sing the same old
> song. :-)
Ok, I will hum YOUR tune this time, then :) Perhaps that will
make it easier to demonstrate [to you] that (a) these are *not*
in the same meter, and (b) that I know your "tune" (but I find
it unnecessarily complex, and don't sing it except under the
most extenuating circ.s).
I'll try to keep this short, so as not to bore RMIMers with too
much needless pedantry. Quickly:
> > (1) "abhI na jAo chhO.D kar ke dil abhI bharA nahI.n" conforms
> > to the syllabic pattern:
> > 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 -- 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2
[...]
> > (2) "shAm-e-firAq ab na pUchh, Ayi aur Aa ke Tal gayI" conforms
> > to the syllabic pattern:
> > 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 -- 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 2
[...]
> For your information, the behr is called rijz.
Up to this point, you and I are in 100% agreement, especially
after you corrected yourself and called this behr "rajaz". We
will ignore the fact that you faltered at the penultimate foot
of the latter meter during your analysis.
Here's the problem:
> And the catalectic version is called: behr rijz, zahaf makhbun
You're claiming that both poems are set to "rajaz, maKhboon".
This is incorrect. Here's the correct assignment:
- abhI na jAo chho.D kar => behr-e-rajaz, maKhboon
(the 'arkaan' of which are: "mu-faa-i-lun" x 4)
- shAm-e-firAq ab na poochh => rajaz, *mutawee*, maKhboon
(the arkaan of which are "muf-ta-i-lun mu-faa-i-lun" x 2)
These two, therefore, are two [completely] different meters.
Yes, they are derivatives of rajaz, but you can't call them
the SAME meter. That would be like calling a tiger a lion
just because they both belong to the same genus (panthera) :-)
And, oh, btw, you should also resist the temptation to cross
one [behr] with the other, or what you'll end up with will
be much more of an abomination than a tigon/liger! ;-)
> I agree that this topic is perhaps no longer relevant to rmim. I
> personally don't travel on alup. I am studying to take the internal
> medicine boards and will be studying for a month or so. I may have
> time to field questions after then.
Ok, good luck with your exams. It's a pity you don't go to
ALUP, because that's where you'll find better foil for these
fancies.
-UVR.
Irfan Moinuddin
Ye hui na sheroN wali baat!! :-)
> You're claiming that both poems are set to "rajaz, maKhboon".
What I did in my earlier post was the following, and nothing more:
I proved to you that both of the poems in discussion were from the
same standard behr! To do this I explained to you how zahafat ties
the two poems together. And I explained zahaf makhbun to you in
detail.
>
> - abhI na jAo chho.D kar => behr-e-rajaz, maKhboon
> (the 'arkaan' of which are: "mu-faa-i-lun" x 4)
>
> - shAm-e-firAq ab na poochh => rajaz, *mutawee*, maKhboon
> (the arkaan of which are "muf-ta-i-lun mu-faa-i-lun" x 2)
>
> These two, therefore, are two [completely] different meters.
> Yes, they are derivatives of rajaz, but you can't call them
> the SAME meter. That would be like calling a tiger a lion
> just because they both belong to the same genus (panthera) :-)
> And, oh, btw, you should also resist the temptation to cross
> one [behr] with the other, or what you'll end up with will
> be much more of an abomination than a tigon/liger! ;-)
>
Your understanding of behr and zahafat is premature and superficial.
Let me be superficial first:
If you wish to speak in terms of biology, know that both lions and
tigers are cats (if I remember my biology correctly, which I may not).
That is what I was trying to say that they are both cats and you, in
the beginning, were asserting that they were not. Also, know that
lions can be broken down into male lions and female lions and, I'm
sure, the dissection does not end there. And to jump into geometry,
know that just because one is equilateral and one is isosceles does
not mean that they're both not triangles!
Now, let me be a little bit technical and let me give you an
assignment:
First, let me acknowledge that your metric analysis above happens to
be correct, although it forces some syllables to be very awkward and
undesirable. However, your understanding about the use of zahafat is
limited, in that you do not understand what it means to be from the
same standard behr. And your arguments do not hold under many common
literary settings.
To illustrate, I invite you to prove to me why you think the following
lines are of the same meter, since they are from the same ghazal by
Ghalib. I am trying to get you do the homework so I don't just sit
here and type all day!
The ghazal is an easy one (and I will type so as to not reflect the
meter):
If you feel rmim is not the forum for this then send me an e-mail.
dil-e-nadaN tujhe hua kya hai
and
shikan-e-zulf-e-anbariN kyuN hai
and
the remaining ghazal.
I know I am leaving this post with some homework, but that is the best
way to learn.
Enjoy,
Irfan
> -UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
Irfan Moinuddin wrote:
>
>
> Now, let me be a little bit technical and let me give you an
> assignment:
>
> First, let me acknowledge that your metric analysis above happens to
> be correct, although it forces some syllables to be very awkward and
> undesirable. However, your understanding about the use of zahafat is
> limited, in that you do not understand what it means to be from the
> same standard behr. And your arguments do not hold under many common
> literary settings.
>
> To illustrate, I invite you to prove to me why you think the following
> lines are of the same meter, since they are from the same ghazal by
> Ghalib. I am trying to get you do the homework so I don't just sit
> here and type all day!
> The ghazal is an easy one (and I will type so as to not reflect the
> meter):
> If you feel rmim is not the forum for this then send me an e-mail.
>
> dil-e-nadaN tujhe hua kya hai
>
> and
>
> shikan-e-zulf-e-anbariN kyuN hai
>
> and
>
> the remaining ghazal.
>
>
> Irfan
>
There is no point in continuing this discussion
through e-mail. Others interested in the subject
should also be able to follow the discussion. As
it is, there are few of such type. I would suggest
that ALUP would be a suitable forum for this
purpose. I am aware that most RMIMers are not
interested in this, and we can avoid exasperating
them any further. Other than this, there are a
few very learned gentlemen (read ALUPers) who too
can join the discussion. There is a very old
saying : Out of discussion, light is born.
Afzal
Devendra Sharma
though most of your discussion here is too advanced for me
the issue reminds me of an interesting fact about the bands
that play with Garba dance during Navratri festival in (western)India.
I was stunned to see that those folks are capable of moldings
*any* meter in the world into 6 beat dadra taal and make people
dance on it nonstop. I often saw this happening when the
garba continues overnight and they run out of all the traditional
tunes they know, they then switch to filmy tunes of different taals
and meters and manage to play them all in same 6 beats!
devendra
UVR
>
>>First, let me acknowledge that your metric analysis above happens to
>>be correct,
[deleted]
>>However, your understanding about the use of zahafat is
>>limited, in that you do not understand what it means to be from the
>>same standard behr. And your arguments do not hold under many common
>>literary settings.
[deleted]
>>>Now, let me be a little bit technical and let me give you an
>>>assignment:
[deleted]
>>If you feel rmim is not the forum for this then send me an e-mail.
>>dil-e-nadaN tujhe hua kya hai
>>and
>>shikan-e-zulf-e-anbariN kyuN hai
>>and
>>the remaining ghazal.
>
> There is no point in continuing this discussion
> through e-mail. Others interested in the subject
> should also be able to follow the discussion.
I am not interested in continuing this discussion by e-mail or
on RMIM. If some of these interested "others" want to take it
to ALUP, I shall be extremely glad indeed to humor them by in-
dulging in a public sparring match between the esteemed, scho-
larly Shri Moinuddin and poor ignorant, premature-superficial-
half-knowledge-holding, silly-1st-grade-level-"assignment"-
deserving me.
> As it is, there are few of such type. I would suggest
> that ALUP would be a suitable forum for this
> purpose. I am aware that most RMIMers are not
> interested in this, and we can avoid exasperating
> them any further. Other than this, there are a
> few very learned gentlemen (read ALUPers) who too
> can join the discussion. There is a very old
> saying : Out of discussion, light is born.
-UVR.
UVR
>
> And to jump into geometry,
> know that just because one is equilateral and one is isosceles does
> not mean that they're both not triangles!
It does not. But it does not also mean that they are the SAME
triangle. For, when you assert that both poems are in the SAME
meter, what you're essentially saying is that the isosceles
triangle is congruent to the equilateral one.
There's really no need to continue this discussion on RMIM. If
you'd like to take it to ALUP, I'll be glad to follow it there.
Otherwise, as far as I am concerned, this discussion is over.
-UVR.
Ke...@att.net
says...
>though most of your discussion here is too advanced for me
>the issue reminds me of an interesting fact about the bands
>that play with Garba dance during Navratri festival in (western)India.
>I was stunned to see that those folks are capable of moldings
>*any* meter in the world into 6 beat dadra taal and make people
>dance on it nonstop. I often saw this happening when the
>garba continues overnight and they run out of all the traditional
>tunes they know, they then switch to filmy tunes of different taals
>and meters and manage to play them all in same 6 beats!
OPN has done something quite similar--different melodies, same 'ghoda-ghadi'
beat. Hats off to his (IMHO) genius.
Ketan
>devendra
Irfan Moinuddin
> I am not interested in continuing this discussion by e-mail or
> on RMIM. If some of these interested "others" want to take it
> to ALUP, I shall be extremely glad indeed to humor them by in-
> dulging in a public sparring match between the esteemed, scho-
> larly Shri Moinuddin and poor ignorant, premature-superficial-
> half-knowledge-holding, silly-1st-grade-level-"assignment"-
> deserving me.
>
UVR, I honestly did not mean to offend you. If RMIM is ok with
us pursuing this discussion then I do not know why you do not want
to continue this discussion on RMIM. If you don't wish to continue,
I can understand. However, I feel that this discussion requires
some sort of closure and I will provide that closure once my boards
are out of the way. That'll be about a month or so. It's been
a good discussion. I think it is obvious what my feelings are regarding alup!
Irfan
>
> -UVR.
Devendra Sharma
yes, it's quite that, but in the first case it sounds
more funny because we already know the song and it's being
played in a (technically) different way.
I think the funniness there comes not from the tune (because that
can be adjusted with different taals with less harm to it's quality)
but from the fact that we know the lyrics or poetry of the original song.
Now if we try to sing the same poetry with different taal we
have to sometimes flex the whole syllabic pattern in a very abnormal
way and it's far from the natural pattern that is used while pronouncing
those words in a normal speech. Since the syllabic pattern is not
natural you can't sing the song normally and the it looses all it's
beauty despite the fact that both poetry and tune are good (It's like
singing "meghaa chhaa_e aadhii raat" in same tune with 6 beats).
In OPN's "ghodaaga.Dii" songs the syllabic patterns are natural (as in any
other normal song) so they don't sound funny.
devendra
Ashok
irfanmo...@yahoo.com? says...
>UVR, I honestly did not mean to offend you. If RMIM is ok with
>us pursuing this discussion then I do not know why you do not want
>to continue this discussion on RMIM. If you don't wish to continue,
>I can understand. However, I feel that this discussion requires
>some sort of closure and I will provide that closure once my boards
>are out of the way. That'll be about a month or so.
Here's one RMIMer's vote. I would like to see more discussion of
Urdu metre on RMIM. Actually, what I feel the need for is not a
closure, but an aperture! When I read Irfan's note in an earlier post
on the thread,
<<
Urdu meter is done according to mutaharik and sakin syllables, not by
short and long syllables. There are nineteen standard urdu meters,
derived from the persian and arabic. There are many variations to
these meters, these variations are identified according to their
associated standard meter and the accompanying catalexis. Also, I
must emphasize that you cannot really do a metric analysis on an
isolated line. You really need to read many ash'ar before you
determine what meter, a particular sher or ghazal is in.
>>
I realized that perhaps the "guru laghu" analysis of maatraa
wouldn't carry over to Urdu. So, what I need is a brief primer on
Urdu metre--just the basics needed to relate better to ghazals (and
I suppose, other forms of Urdu poetry).
The articles on ghazal that I have read on the net, as well as in
print, skip over the topic of metre, on the grounds that it is too
invloved. It is a gap in my own understanding that I would like to
fill with assistance from knowledgeable nettors.
There is always the thorny issue of special interests pushed so far
as to be off-topic. My feeling is that a basic understanding
of metre would enhance our listening pleasure, by allowing us to
relate better to the interplay of metre in the lyrics and the taala
in the tune. This consideration--that we are primarily interested in
those Urdu poems who have been exposed to through their use as songs--
can also provide a clue to you as to how much detail to go into:
aspects of metre for listeners, rather than for readers.
In matters such as these, the voting process is perforce asymmetrical:
positive votes count, while negative votes don't! So, if a few RMIMers
show an interest, that's all there is to it. I request RMIMers interested
in a primer on Urdu metre to add their voice.
It's been
>a good discussion. I think it is obvious what my feelings are regarding
alup!
>
>Irfan
I'm curious. What ARE your feelings regarding ALUP and why? I see
no harm in the discussion taking place both on RMIM and ALUP.
So, all the best for your board exams and hope you will get back
to us.
Ashok
Devendra Sharma
>
> Here's one RMIMer's vote. I would like to see more discussion of
> Urdu metre on RMIM. Actually, what I feel the need for is not a
> closure, but an aperture!
count me too
>
> The articles on ghazal that I have read on the net, as well as in
> print, skip over the topic of metre, on the grounds that it is too
> invloved. It is a gap in my own understanding that I would like to
> fill with assistance from knowledgeable nettors.
>
> There is always the thorny issue of special interests pushed so far
> as to be off-topic. My feeling is that a basic understanding
> of metre would enhance our listening pleasure, by allowing us to
> relate better to the interplay of metre in the lyrics and the taala
> in the tune. This consideration--that we are primarily interested in
> those Urdu poems who have been exposed to through their use as songs--
> can also provide a clue to you as to how much detail to go into:
> aspects of metre for listeners, rather than for readers.
>
IMO the former is as important (if not more) as latter,
my analysis is that meter plays a role whenever there is a question
of associating a rhythm with the prose, be it for the purpose for simply
reading it or singing it with a tune (the tune/tarannum would add more
beauty to the meaning and presentation). I feel that a listener may be
appreciating it only in his subconscious but a composer would know better
that if a prose is to be set into a tune and sung with a given taal it
may be difficult to do it properly in the absence of a correct meter.
It's therefore certainly not unrelated to the musical aspect and of
interest only to the readers of poetry.
> In matters such as these, the voting process is perforce asymmetrical:
> positive votes count, while negative votes don't! So, if a few RMIMers
> show an interest, that's all there is to it. I request RMIMers interested
> in a primer on Urdu metre to add their voice.
>
I would be happy to see some discussion, or as Ashok suggested a kind of primer,
on this subject, I would be happy to follow it on RMIM or on ALUP but would be
better if RMIM is the forum since I see the subject strongly related
to the musical aspect of Hindi/Urdu poetry/songs.
devendra
>
> Ashok
Sushil Sharma
...
> Here's one RMIMer's vote. I would like to see more discussion of
> Urdu metre on RMIM. Actually, what I feel the need for is not a
> closure, but an aperture!
Please add my positive vote to your call for more discussion on
Urdu prosody. As I follow both RMIM and ALUP (mostly as a passive
listener), either forum is OK to me.
...
>
> I realized that perhaps the "guru laghu" analysis of maatraa
> wouldn't carry over to Urdu. So, what I need is a brief primer on
> Urdu metre--just the basics needed to relate better to ghazals (and
> I suppose, other forms of Urdu poetry).
Around two weeks back, I had posted a link to the online version of
"Urdu Meter: A Practical Handbook" (by F.W. Pritchett and Kh. A. Khaliq)
on ALUP. I am quoting that post below (with apologies to those for whom
this is an "old news"). It might be a useful reading material, relevant
to this discussion. This handbook, and the "nikaat.e.sukhan" series posted
last year on ALUP by Sarwar Alam Raz saahib, are the two most comprehensive
resorces on Urdu meter I could find on Internet. Pointers to other online
articles on this topic (besides the ALUP archives), would be highly
appreciated.
Thanks,
Sushil
--
"I was happy to find the online version of
URDU METER: A PRACTICAL HANDBOOK
Authors: F.W. Pritchett & Kh. A. Khaliq
(Published in print, in 1987)
available on Prof. Pritchett's website.
Here is the URL (piece it together if it is
broken into multiple lines):
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ghalib/meterbk/00_index.html?urdu
Posting here in the hope that other students
like myself (and who knows, may be some of the
resident asatiza too), might find this ittila'
useful.
Sushil"
--
UVR
> adhar...@hotmail.com (Ashok) wrote :
>
>>Here's one RMIMer's vote. I would like to see more discussion of
>>Urdu metre on RMIM.
>
> Urdu prosody.
Let me add here that I (too) am not against a discussion of Urdu
meter on RMIM. So, yes, here's my vote in favor of it.
adhar...@hotmail.com (Ashok) said:
>>I realized that perhaps the "guru laghu" analysis of maatraa
>>wouldn't carry over to Urdu.
My experience has been to the contrary. The guru-laghu scheme
of metric analysis carries over very well to Urdu indeed; one
just *applies* it a little differently to Ghazals, nazms etc.
than, say, to Hindi/Sanskrit poetry.
-UVR.
Devendra Sharma
>
> adhar...@hotmail.com (Ashok) said:
> >>I realized that perhaps the "guru laghu" analysis of maatraa
> >>wouldn't carry over to Urdu.
>
> My experience has been to the contrary. The guru-laghu scheme
> of metric analysis carries over very well to Urdu indeed; one
> just *applies* it a little differently to Ghazals, nazms etc.
> than, say, to Hindi/Sanskrit poetry.
>
> -UVR.
My feeling is same, they may have been classified
under different names but every scheme seems to follow the same
basic idea of classifying the characters as short and
long syllables based on the way they are spoken
in normal speech (in Hindi chhand structure they are
named laghu and guru). At least the same theory seems to work
in musical compositions which are set to different taals.
As far as the meter and its relations with taals in different
compositions go, my view is that apart from the detailed and
well established theory of meter (or metre it is?) in Hindi/Urdu
poetry (which was subject of the original thread), there is also
a strong relation between meter and the Hindi/Urdu song composition
which may be worth a discusion. Compare to the complete Urdu
prosody this subject possibly has much less complicated theory.
Let me first accept that I do not posses any expertise to discuss
all the technicalities of it, nevertheless, just to get some
more knowledgeable persons interested I would discuss some
aspects of it based purely on my own observations. I understand
that the things discussed here may also apply to normal reading
of any poetry in the proper rhythm, with/without a tune (tarannum).
My observation has been that in every normal composition each long
syllable runs for *at least* two matraas (beats) of rhythm
(maatraa = one unit of tabalaa/dholak 'bol's) while one short syllable
would run *at least* one maatra (not half, i.e., no two short syllable
on a single matra is used) any further squeezing of
syllables with respect to maatras spoils the beauty of composition
(however, stretching them seems allowed). Possibly this is the
reason that in all normal compositions we don't find
examples where these rules are violated. In many cases it's
easy to realize the trouble such violation would cause by attempting
to sing certain lyrics in a taal different from what is used in
the original composition. For example, if I use a taal that has
less number of maatras than the original one, I observe that in
the 'aavartans' where all the maatras were fully occupied with lyric
characters I don't have enough maatras to adjust all the characters
in the new set up. If one still manages to sing all the characters
one has to essentially squeeze the syllabic structure abnormally
thus spoiling the whole beauty since it would violate the above
rules (long syllable = at least 2 maatras, short syllable = at least
one maatra). A poetry that already confirms to certain predefined
theoratical structures in Urdu/Hindi poetry would not suffers
with problems if its syllabic pattern fits properly to the taal
used in the composition.
devendra
Amit Malhotra
>
> Urdu metre on RMIM. Actually, what I feel the need for is not a
> closure, but an aperture! When I read Irfan's note in an earlier post
> on the thread,
>
Better late .......
thought i'd add my vote on it too. I read the whole discussion today
between Irfan and UVR sahib with a lot of interest and yah, I'd love
to see some closure on that too, although Irfan is somewhat arrogant
in his assumptions (no flame required, just MHO).
So this was like 10 days ago, where is the discussion?? :P
Amit Malhtra