Translator's Nightmare Quiz #3 : Answers & Results post
K Vijay Kumar
I am finally ready with the Answers & Results post of TNQ #3. The
response was very enthusiastic, encouraging and lasted from day one till
today. I am sure if I don't post the answers and results today, I will
still be getting some responses at the end of the week, too :-)
Most of the respondents were very generous to the quiz in their comments
- probably because the quiz was very generous to participants :-)
Many people commented that the quiz was easy, some felt that it was too
easy. That was the deliberate intent of this quiz. I looked at the first
couple of quizzes and felt that it was the novelty of the format
combined with a high "toughness" quotient which kept many
people
away. If this quiz is to catch the collective imagination of RMIM like
RJGK & Chitrahaar have done, it may make sense to get folks hooked by
having a couple of easy quizzes and then easing into a higher gear once
the quiz has found its deserving place in RMIM.
THE RESPONDENTS
===============
Hrishi Dixit
Archana Kapur
Radhika Woodruff
Rajesh Munshi
Hemlata Khemani
Radha & Abhay Phadnis
Roopa Dhawan, Babli, Kanti and Sanju
Sarita Lall & Shalini Singh
Parth Pandya
Tabassum Hijazi
T Srinivasa Raghavan
Swaraj Mishra
Pavan & Vinay
Angshuman Bezbaruah
Anil Hingorani
Arup Ray & Sreedevi (Team MCI)
Kalyan & Ikram
Subhash Barthwal
Balaji & Malini
Neha & Vandana
There were a couple of respondents who never sent in an entry :(
Arunabha Shashank Roy
Manohar Chhabria
OVERALL COMMENTS (my responses preceded by a ==>)
================
Hrishi : Though the quiz itself was quite easy, I loved your
translations. It almost tempts me to host a TN quiz myself !
Maybe
I will, one of these days :-)
==> Abhay please note!
Archana : Thanks a lot for a nice quiz on Talat Mahmood, though I am a
trifle disappointed with the exclusion of "Do dil dhadak rahe hain..."
and "Pyas kuchch bhadka di...". But I guess, there were only so many
that you could have included.
Arunabha : Before seeing your questions, I took a guess as to who the
singer would be . And I was right :)
==> was this after seeing the example?
Radhika : This was more like a dream than a nightmare!! I thoroughly
enjoyed solving this quiz. I gave up on the last two quizzes because I
found it hard to guess most of the songs. This quiz seemed easier, maybe
because it was based on Talat Mehmood's songs. Once I guessed the song
#11 .... I haven't got all of them but I will try to get back to them
sometime soon.
Thanks for such a lovely quiz.
Rajesh : I enjoyed participating in the quiz. It was really cool to see
all the songs of Talat that I like especially - Man dheere dheere gaaye
re ...
Manohar Chhabria : I loved the translations. good rhyming. WELL DONE
Hema : Wonderful Quiz! I enjoyed it a lot and could get all the clues
wihtout even having to look at the additional info, in just a few mins.
Of course, part of the reason is because the quiz featured Talat songs
and the other being your fine translations. I must say that I actually
thought the # of clues was less!! An appreciable effort on your part.
Congrats!
Radha & Abhay Phadnis : Really enjoyed your quiz, though I must say most
of the songs were very easy to guess. Being Talat fans ourselves, it was
fun going through the songs.
Roopa Dhawan : Thanks for a nice quiz. I'm very impressed with the
rhyming translations. It's quite a feat to make images in one language
sound half decent in another, and here some of them actually sound quite
nice.
Parth Pandya : This is the first time I am attempting a quiz of this
sort; so it took me some time to get used to the pattern of questions.
Tabassum : Quiz was interesting, transalation was good enough to point
right song, sub-clue/pstat was helpful for 3-4 songs which were little
less known like #4 & #6. Rest all songs were popular enough, in fact one
just needs "Talat Golden Collection" to solve this quiz. :-). I think 13
out of 16 songs are from that set, 3 songs which I might have goofed up
are ones missing in that album :-)
I feel the quiz is short, it should have at least 20-25 songs.
Swaraj : Finally I managed to do it. After so many near misses, finally
I have been able to answer all questions, hopefully correctly. Any way,
it was a very good quiz. An excellent tribute to the latest casualty to
Hindi Film Music. I being a big fan of Talat Mehmood, was really excited
while answering the questions.
Pavan & Vinay : Nice quiz. Thanks for providing a lovely Sunday
afternoon, solving your quiz. Lovely songs though easier ones.
Kalyan : thanks for hosting the quiz on my fav. singer. Much as I like
Talat solos, I like his duets much more and would have preferred to see
more duets. Great quiz.
Balaji & Malini : The quiz was too easy. The sub-clues made the quiz a
giveaway. Perhaps, sub-clues (or the information in them) could have
been restricted, since the songs selected are among the most well known
songs of Talat.
But all said and done, it was fun solving this one, especially since we
got the answers so easily :). Surely others will have too, so expect a
bumper response.
THE EXAMPLE
===========
There were some comments and a small discussion on RMIM that the example
song, "hai.n sabase madhur wo giit" was, indeed, shot on Dev. IIRC, the
song was a background song and Dev did not lip-synch for the song,
though he does appear on the screen. If I have caused any confusion
by using "not shot on" as a synonym for "not lip-synched by", or
my
memory has (as is becoming frequent in my bu.Dhaapaa) failed me again, I
apologise.
Here are the answers to the Translator's Nightmare Quiz #3.
THE ANSWERS
===========
1. Though love is by no dictates taught
Tell me, should I love you or not?
#19/20
This is a great song penned by a great poet. Soft supporting vocals by
Asha in a lop-sided duet add to the beauty of the song. Unlike most of
the other songs in this quiz, this is not entirely a playback song.
Come to think of it, Nutan could have sung her bit and it could have
been both singers singing for themselves. A surprise tune from OPN, a
far cry from his ghod.Da-gaa.Di numbers.
Song: pyaar par bas to nahii.n hai meraa, lekin phir bhii
tuu bataa de ke tujhe pyaar karuu.N yaa naa karuu.N
Film : Sone ki Chi.diya
Sing.: Talat, Asha
Mus. : O P Nayyar
Lyr. : Sahir Ludhianvi
Hema : Wonderful beginning of the quiz, now I can go through the entire
quiz with two of my fav singers singing/humming in the background (of
my mind).
Tabassum : I doubt OPN deserves any credit for this song, its mainly
Sahir's & Talat's song. Its lyrics which is real beauty of this song and
Talat's voice has increased it.
Radha/Abhay : Nutan could sing better than Talat could act, but she
realised her limitations and did not try to become a singing star. If
only one could say the same of Talat where acting was concerned!
==>Talat maintained that his acting adventure did not really affect his
longevity as a singer, but several people felt otherwise.
Kalyan: While this song is good, I like "Sach bata tu mujhpe fida"
better. One of the better OPN soundtracks. Did OPN use him in movies
other than SKC and Baaz?
==>"Sach bata tu" is more typically OPN, while "pyar par bas" is more
typical of Talat. I like Talat over OPN, hence my preferences differ
from yours...
Balaji/Malini : There is a full Asha version as well.
2. Its aught but sorrow today,
I swear by the dusk sorrowing
Come my love, do come this evening
#20/20
Some assert that this was the debut for Khayyam. Some also trace a
similarity between this and the Phir Subah hogi title song in terms of
its tune. The two stanzas of this song do not have the same tune. It
is sad that the singer and Khayyam did not do a lot of work together
in later years. Unusually, two lyricists, Majrooh & Sardar Jafri share
the credits for this song.
Song : shaam-e-Gam kii qasam aaj Gamagii.n hai.n ham
aa bhii jaa aa bhii jaa aaj mere sanam
shaam-e-Gam kii qasam
dil pareshaan hai.n raat viiraan hai.n
dekh jaa kis tarah aaj tanahaa hai.n ham
shaam-e-Gam kii qasam
Film : Footpath
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Khayyam
Lyr. : Majrooh Sultanpuri, Ali Sardar Jafri
Tabassum : One of my favorites, Talat's voice, beautiful lyric and tune
with Dilip performing - what else one can ask in a song.
==> If we ask Anand, probably Dev's presence?
Kalyan : I don't know what got into DilipK to switch from Talat to
Rafi and from Anil Biswas, Khaiyyam etc. to Naushad. Now that's worth
tons of flames :) But what can you expect from a man who allegedly
broke off with Madhubala and Waheeda to marry Saira Banu!
==>And Madhubala then chose Kishore on the rebound?!
3. Stirring the strings of my heart
in grand unconcern did you depart
Leaving me to pine all night long
when you, my love, are far apart.
#17/20
A light-hearted romantic solo, for the ultimate romantic hero - Dev. A
film which was a box-office disaster, had one redeeming feature - this
song. Shanker Jaikishan's music, which worked so well for Raj Kapoor,
just could not do it when it came to Dev.
Song : tum to dil ke taar chhe.Dakar
ho gaye... bekhabar...
chA.Nd ke tale jale.nge ham
ai sanam... raat bhar
tum to dil ke taar chhe.Dakar..
Film : Roop ki raani, choro.n ka raajaa
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Shanker Jaikishan
Lyr. : Shailendra
Radha/Abhay : "...film...was a box office disaster" : could it have
anything to do with the name, given that another film of the same name
suffered the same fate not very long ago?!
Tabassum : Is there something with this name? We had a second box-office
disaster with the same name recently.
Kalyan : Great song from great composers (though fast declining by then)
and a great actress. Of course there's Dev Anand too hanging around :)
Balaji/Malini : And again there is a Lata version of this song as well.
4. My heart is softly crooning, can someone say why
can scarce help singing, can someone say why
#15/20
My all-time favourite combination. Suraiya & Ghulam Mohammad with the
singer makes for wonderful songs. Shakeel's poetry and a beautiful,
simple tune, will make you say too - can scarce help singing.
Song : man dhiire dhiire gaaye re, maluum nahin kyuu.n
bin gaaye raha na jaaye re, maluum nahin kyuu.n
man dhiire dhiire gaaye re ...
Film : Malik
Sing.: Talat, Suraiya
Mus. : Ghulam Mohammad
Lyr. : Shakeel Badayuni
Hema : I just love the line "maaluum nahin kyon" by Suraiyya. A gem of
a song by a splendid pair of singers.
Tabassum : Here translation had confused me, guessing this with help of
p-stat...
==>sorry for that...the translations are NOT verbatim translations, but
you did get the song right.
Kalyan : Lovely song from a pair who had a great chemistry together. I
find Ghulam Mohd. is the only composer who steadily improved with time.
His last two movies were Pakeezah & Shama. If only he had lived longer!
5. I have found for you the very song
For which your eyes have been alit so long
#20/20
Most people would pick this song as the singer's greatest ever. It is
rumoured that SDB wanted Rafi to sing it and his pre-recording plea to
the singer was "don't spoil my tune"! Needless to say, the tune was
only embellished by the rendition.
Song : jalate hai.n jisake liye, terii aa.Nkho.n ke diye
Dhuu.NDh laayaa huu.N vahii, giit mai.n tere liye
jalate hai.n jisake liye
Film : Sujata
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : S D Burman
Lyr. : Majrooh Sultanpuri
Tabassum : No doubt Talat at his best and its difficult to imagine how
Rafi would have sung this song. But I feel he would have done equal (if
not better :-)) justice to the tune.
Radha/Abhay : SDB wanted Rafi for this song? Thank God it didn't happen.
My ears refuse to accept that anyone but Talat could sing it!
==>That's the way I heard it. Of course, there are several who feel the
way you do.
6. A million 'thank you's to love are owed
For this beautiful gift of pain bestowed
#17/20
This was a dream come true for the man who had arrived in Bombay to be
an actor. He sings for himself in a guest appearance as himself, and
the song, composed by Anil Biswas, is a popular and well known one. It
is as well the two did not rest on the laurels of this song alone, but
went on to create some more gems together.
Song : shukriya, shukriya, shukriya, ai pyaar teraa
shukriyaa, shukriya
dil ko kitana khuubsuurat gham diya, shukriya
Film : Aaraam
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Anil Biswas
Lyr. : Rajinder Kishan
Kalyan : I can't praise this classic soundtrack much because your
anonymous friend might end up buying it and then curse me for misleading
him :)
Radha/Abhay : Why this ordinary song, when there are so many Talat-Anil
Biswas gems to pick from?
==>I'll leave it to other RMIMers to discuss the 'ordinary' label :-)
7. The same evenfall, the sorrow, I'm as forlorn again
Your thoughts have come visiting, is all I can explain
#20/20
By his own admission, he shared a special chemistry with Madan Mohan,
and even though this song came late in his career, one can still see
the special touch in this song. Aurangzeb's sister lends her name to
the name of the film.
Song : phir vohii shaam vahii Gam vahii tanahaaI hai
dil ko samajhaane terii yaad chalii aaI hai
phir vohii shaam ...
Film : Jahanara
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Madan Mohan
Lyr. : Rajinder Kishan
Tabassum : I some how don't like Talat much in this movie, I think the
best song of this movie is "Bad muddat ke yeh..".
Kalyan : Talat was on the decline by then. I find his voice to be much
more shaky and unsteady in this movie. This song is a classic, though.
8. My heart went abso' cuckoo
The moment I set my eyes on you.
I know this tale, is now yours too.
#17/20
A rather irreverant translation of a beautiful duet with Shamshad for
Naushad. This singer always regretted that he never worked much with
Naushad. Well, after this first pairing, there would be only one more
film which saw the two work together - Love and God - which has a song
in many voices, one of which was this singer's.
Song : milate hii aa.Nkhe.n dil huaa diivaanaa kisiikaa
afasaanaa meraa ban gayaa, afasaanaa kisiikaa
Film : Babul
Sing.: Talat, Shamshad Begum
Mus. : Naushad
Lyr. : Shakeel Badayuni
Radha/Abhay : As kids, we used to refer to this as the "music tuition
song": each and every line is first sung by Talat and then repeated by
Shamshad! This, frankly, makes it rather a dull song.
BTW, are you sure that "Love and God" is the only other film in which
Talat sang for Naushad? A curiosity-driven combination search in the
RMIM song database tossed up two other films: "darwaaza" and "aadmi"
(one duet in each). Can anyone shed further light on this?
==>I have read a Talat interview where he himself says Babul was the
only film. This interview precedes the release of Love & God, so he
could be limiting himself to released films & songs. "Darwaaza" (ek dil
do hain talabgaar) is by Nashad. I believe the Aadmi song was recorded
over by Mahendra Kapoor in the version finally released.
9. He who never love knew, which brute would obsession know?
How can unfeeling beauty, my suffering heart's affliction know?
#20/20
A question often repeated on RMIM, about the distinction between pyaar
and muhabbat. I'm afraid this translation cannot provide the answer. A
great song nonetheless, and probably the most famous one by this
singer for C Ramchandra.
Song : mohabbat hii na jo samajhe, vo jaalim pyaar kyaa jaane
nikalatii dil ke taaro.n se, jo hai jha.nkaar kyaa jaane
mohabbat hii na jo samajhe ...
Film : Parchhai.n
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : C Ramachandra
Lyr. : Noor Lucknowi
Tabassum : I wish I could ask "Anjaan" what he mean by this line.
==>There is a baseless rumour that the lyricist was Anjaan. It was in
fact, Noor Lucknowi. Besides, you could always ask Roopa, right?
Roopa : I wish RMIM would put to rest the debate on the distinction
between "muhabbat" and "pyaar" in this song. There is clearly none,
other than the particular flavour the different words emit. All that
occurs in this line is poetic play, the need to remain metrically sound
joining happily with the desire to be semantically witty. Both words
mean, imply, indicate, connote, suggest, denote and symbolize simply
romantic love in this context, and the point of the song is to argue
that there are such heartless people as don't understand love. I believe
it's no more profound than that!
Balaji/Malini : The second line you provided is from an 'antaraa', not
from the 'mukha.Daa'.
==>Oops. That's what comes out of relying solely on memory. I had used
"ta.Dapatii dil ki haalat husn ki diivaar kya jaane". Sorry.
10. The night hath a beauteous dragnet of dreams spread
I woke with broken dreams, wrapped in shadows of dread
#19/20
A story of a village, which featured our singing hero again. Salil is
wielder of the baton, in this case. The film features another famous
solo and a nice Lata duet.
Song : raat ne kyA kyA khvAb dikhaaye
ra.ng bhare sau jaal bichhAye
A.Nkhe.n khulI to sapane TUTe
rah gaye Gam ke kaale sAye
raat ne ...
Film : Ek Gaon ki kahaani
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Salil Chaudhary
Lyr. : Shailendra
Hema : This reminds me of the melodious nocturne "raat hai armaan bhari
aur kya suhaani raat hai". Now I miss a Talat-Geeta duet in this quiz.
==>Nice as the Sangam song is (MD Ram Ganguly, Lyrics Hasrat), it cannot
rank among Talat's most famous songs. Remember the objective which I
stated at the beginning of the quiz -some of his most famous songs only.
11. With pitter-patter raindrops, the night in its wake love brings
Hark, my love! the chirping of the crickets, the song of the winds
#19/20
He told you so. An anthem of sorts in RMIM, this pleasant song is part
of the reason why people claim it was Salil who taught this singer to
smile. A nice duet with Lata.
Song : aaha rimjhim ke ye pyaare-pyaare giit liye
aai raat suhani dekho priit liye
miit mere suno zara hava kahe kya,
suno to zara jhingur bole chiki-miki, chiki-miki
Film : usane kaha tha
Sing.: Talat, Lata
Mus. : Salil Chaudhary
Lyr. : Shailendra
Radha/Abhay : Lata & Talat have such wonderful duets together! I always
felt the Lata-Rafi combo was over-rated as compared to Lata-Talat.
Tabassum : May be Salil had taught Talat to smile but his natural talent
was to cry and he was a master in that. :-)
Swaraj : I was really stuck up with Q-11, to which the answer that came
to my mind persistently was Tim Tim Tim Taaron ke Deep Jale.
==>well, you finally got that right. Now, who was that avowed Talat fan
who came up with the answer "nadii kinaare, saath hamaare"?
12. Shed your tears for me no more, tell your heart simmer no more
Please forget me, I implore
Like a dream gone by in pleasant days of yore
Please forget me, I implore
#20/20
Madan Mohan again. It's intoxicating stuff, when the two get together.
While most of Madan Mohan's songs with this singer have been written
by Rajinder Kishan, this is by Raja Mehdi Ali Khan. Simple lyrics, and
yet this translation can do poor justice to their beauty.
Song : merii yaad me.n tum na aa.Nsuu bahaanaa
na jii ko jalaanaa, mujhe bhuul jaanaa
samajhanaa ke thaa ek sapanaa suhaanaa
vo guzaraa zamaanaa, mujhe bhuul jaanaa
merii yaad me.n...
Film : Madhosh
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Madan Mohan
Lyr. : Raja Mehdi Ali Khan
13. But where can one go?
Where find one who'll follow
How the grieving heart's speech does flow
#19/20
A rare combination of SDB and Sahir with this singer. Its tandem song
was never so popular. Dev had a few songs sung for him by this singer,
until Rafi came along, that is. I guess this is the most popular of
all. Interesting story is that Kalpana Kartik offered to cut off her
hair for this role, if Dev agreed to marry her. He did!
Song : jaae.n to jaae.n kahaa.N
jaae.n to jaae.n kahaa.N
samajhegaa, kaun yahaa.N, dard bhare dil kii zubaa.N
jaae.n to jaae.n kahaa.N ...
Film : Taxi Driver
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : S D Burman
Lyr. : Sahir Ludhianvi
14. Come my heart, come away
abrim with a world where sorrow dwells
Come my heart, come seek
for yourself a new home somewhere else
#19/20
A common accusation levelled against Shanker-Jaikishen was that their
music lacked solid poetic content. In an interview, this singer tried
to make a case in their favour. It is easy to see why. Most of the
songs by this singer & SJ have been written by Shailendra, certainly
the more talented lyricist in the SJ-Hasrat-Shailendra combine. This
song is, however, not the best that Shailendra wrote.
Song : ai mere dil kahii.n aur chal
Gam kii duniyaa se dil bhar gayaa
Dhuu.NDh le ab koI ghar nayaa
ai mere dil kahii.n aur chal
Film : Daag
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Shanker Jaikishan
Lyr. : Shailendra
Radha/Abhay : One tandem song where both versions sound great.
==>A sentiment that is not reflected by most people I know.
Kalyan : I feel SJ songs have pretty good lyrics. Shailendra is the
lyricist for a majority of their songs. And Hasrat was good in his own
way. If anything, they can be blamed for their songs being easy to
understand. And the fact that common man can appreciate the songs as
well as they do, wouldn't go well with the elitist folks :) After all,
RMIM's love affair with the dictionary & difficult Urdu is well known :)
15. Shed me not like tears from your eyes
'Tis someone's pearls of love, that you so despise
#20/20
Another Salil composition. I did not see this Salil pattern emerging
when creating my clues. But when one sees the body of work the two
share credits for, it is obvious that they got it just right. Anyway,
this song has the Salil smiles wiped out and replaced by the trademark
pathos.
Song : aa.Nsuu samajh ke kyuu.N mujhe aa.Nkh se tuune giraa diyaa
motii kisii ke pyaar kaa miTTii me.n kyuu.N milaa diyaa
aa.Nsuu samajh ke kyuu.N mujhe
Film : Chhaya
Sing.: Talat
Mus. : Salil Chaudhary
Lyr. : Rajinder Kishan
Hema : You seem to have a knack of focusing on the essence of beauty in
the lyrics. Nice interpretation (I would dislike using the word
translation).
==>mmm..aah. you flatter me. I guess it is Talat's inspiring presence in
this quiz.
16. O foolish heart, what has come over you?
What d'you expect, from one who love never knew?
#20/20
This translation takes the opening line of a great Ghazal and combines
it with one of the stanzas. Back to my favourite combination and with
a great lyricist to boot, this Ghulam Mohammad duet, accompanied by
Suraiya, ranks among the greatest duets ever.
Song : dil-e-naadaa.n tujhe huaa kyaa hai
aakhir is dard kii davaa kyaa hai
Film : Mirza Ghalib
Sing.: Talat, Suraiya
Mus. : Ghulam Mohammad
Lyr. : Asadullah Khan
Hema : Your second line though is probably "hamko unse wafaa ki hai
ummeed jo nahin jaante wafaa kya hai".
==> it is. The additional clues make it explicit that the opening line
is combined with one of the stanzas.
Tabassum : Ghalib ki rooh apne asha'ar ka yeh haal dekh kar taDap rahi
hogi :-)
==>c'mon! the translation was not that bad!
THE RESULTS
===========
And now for the results
Since most people got so many right, I am restricting myself to listing
the names of those participants and teams who got all right.
Hrishi Dixit (a grand debut in RMIM quizzes, I believe!)
Rajesh Munshi
Hemlata Khemani
Radha & Abhay
Roopa Dhawan, Babli, Kanti & Sanju (a comeback in style for Roopa)
Shalini Singh & Sarita Lall
Tabassum Hijazi
Swaraj Mishra
Pavan & Vinay
Anil Hingorani
Arup & Sreedevi (Team MCI)
Balaji & Malini
Vandana & Neha
Thanks to everybody for the enthusiastic participation. A big THANK YOU
to Abhay for kindling a new flame in RMIM. I pass this on to the next
torch bearer...Pavan/Vinay?
Vijay
hri...@slb.com
> Hrishi : Though the quiz itself was quite easy, I loved your
> translations. It almost tempts me to host a TN quiz myself !
> Maybe I will, one of these days :-)
> ==> Abhay please note!
He's been forewarned ! :-)
> Hrishi Dixit (a grand debut in RMIM quizzes, I believe!)
Not quite, actually... I foobar-ed on the previous one :-)
..Hrishi
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Roopa Dhawan
K Vijay Kumar wrote:
>
> ------------------->
> Tabassum : I wish I could ask "Anjaan" what he mean by this line.
> ==>There is a baseless rumour that the lyricist was Anjaan. It was in
> fact, Noor Lucknowi. Besides, you could always ask Roopa, right?
Oooh. Better still, you could wait to see what Noor Lukhnavi said when
he came back from the dead before you thought anything at all. Now THAT
would be the real comeback!
> Roopa Dhawan, Babli, Kanti & Sanju (a comeback in style for Roopa)
Roopa
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Song : mohabbat hii na jo samajhe, vo jaalim pyaar kyaa jaane
> nikalatii dil ke taaro.n se, jo hai jha.nkaar kyaa jaane
> mohabbat hii na jo samajhe ...
> Film : Parchhai.n
> Sing.: Talat
> Mus. : C Ramachandra
> Lyr. : Noor Lucknowi
>
> between "muhabbat" and "pyaar" in this song. There is clearly none,
> other than the particular flavour the different words emit. All that
> occurs in this line is poetic play, the need to remain metrically sound
> joining happily with the desire to be semantically witty. Both words
> mean, imply, indicate, connote, suggest, denote and symbolize simply
> romantic love in this context, and the point of the song is to argue
> that there are such heartless people as don't understand love. I believe
> it's no more profound than that!
Roopa, most likely there is no distinction between "muhabbat" and
"pyaar" in the line in question although I would not rule out a
subtle difference between the two senses of love based on my own
interpretation. It anchors on the distinction between "samajhe"
and "jaane".
(kisii kii) muhabbat hii na jo samajhe,
vo zaalim pyaar (karanaa/denaa) kyaa jaane?
or "The brute cannot even understand somebody's love; how can he
know how to give love in return?"
Hope someone knowledgeable in Urdu and/or poetry can comment.
C
dhanashri_jagtap
>
>K Vijay Kumar wrote:
>>
>> Song : mohabbat hii na jo samajhe, vo jaalim pyaar kyaa jaane
>> nikalatii dil ke taaro.n se, jo hai jha.nkaar kyaa jaane
>> mohabbat hii na jo samajhe ...
>> Film : Parchhai.n
>> Sing.: Talat
>> Mus. : C Ramachandra
>> Lyr. : Noor Lucknowi
>>
>> between "muhabbat" and "pyaar" in this song. There is clearly none,
>> other than the particular flavour the different words emit. All that
>> occurs in this line is poetic play, the need to remain metrically sound
>> joining happily with the desire to be semantically witty. Both words
>> mean, imply, indicate, connote, suggest, denote and symbolize simply
>> romantic love in this context, and the point of the song is to argue
>> that there are such heartless people as don't understand love. I believe
>> it's no more profound than that!
>
>
>"pyaar" in the line in question although I would not rule out a
>subtle difference between the two senses of love based on my own
>interpretation. It anchors on the distinction between "samajhe"
>and "jaane".
>
> (kisii kii) muhabbat hii na jo samajhe,
> vo zaalim pyaar (karanaa/denaa) kyaa jaane?
>
>or "The brute cannot even understand somebody's love; how can he
>know how to give love in return?"
>
>Hope someone knowledgeable in Urdu and/or poetry can comment.
>
>C
I am not knowledgeable in Urdu or poetry, but am still commenting :
(kisii kii) muhabbat hii na jo samajhe,
vo zaalim pyaar (karanaa/denaa) kyaa jaane?
or "The brute cannot even understand somebody's love; how can he
know how to give love in return?"
or "The brute cannot even understand (somebody's) love; how can he
know (how to give) love (in return)?"
or "The brute cannot even understand love; how can he
know love?"
also in the original can muhabbat (which need not be always kisiki) and pyar
(can also be kisika) interchanged ?
pyar hii na jo samajhe, vo zaalim muhobbat kyaa jaane ?
- Dhanashri
il_...@yahoo.com
cvin...@lucent.com wrote:
> K Vijay Kumar wrote:
> >
> > Song : mohabbat hii na jo samajhe, vo jaalim pyaar kyaa jaane
> > nikalatii dil ke taaro.n se, jo hai jha.nkaar kyaa jaane
> > mohabbat hii na jo samajhe ...
> > Film : Parchhai.n
> > Sing.: Talat
> > Mus. : C Ramachandra
> > Lyr. : Noor Lucknowi
> >
> > between "muhabbat" and "pyaar" in this song.
>
> "pyaar" in the line in question although I would not rule out a
> subtle difference between the two senses of love based on my own
> interpretation. It anchors on the distinction between "samajhe"
> and "jaane".
>
> (kisii kii) muhabbat hii na jo samajhe,
> vo zaalim pyaar (karanaa/denaa) kyaa jaane?
>
> or "The brute cannot even understand somebody's love; how can he
> know how to give love in return?"
>
> Hope someone knowledgeable in Urdu and/or poetry can comment.
>
> C
It seems there has been considerable discussion in the past
on the meaning of these lines, but unfortunately I have not
seen the same.
By and large, I am in agreement with what one of our friends
has stated in the current discussion that there is no difference
in meaning in the two words. But my opinion is restricted to
the GENERAL SENSE of the two words, not in the context of this
song.
Now, what prompted Noor Lucknawi
to compose these lines in this manner ? The most charitable
explanation would be that he was guided by a mischievous
impulse. But there were other people involved, like Talat
Mehmood himself who could have pointed out the desirablity of
changing the words. And then there was Shantaram himself who
had a good working knowledge of Urdu. Also, we cannot ignore
Music Director C. Ramchandra who was composing a serious tune
for a serious song which was to be a highlight of the entire
musical score. It won't do if people (listeners) held up these
lines to ridicule. A meaningless lyric would be a slur on the
poet Noor Lucknawi also.
I myself have wondered over the years as to what exactly was
meant by the poet. My understanding (or two cents' worth, if
you will) is that the word "Muhabbat" here has been used in the
abstract sense, referring to the "concept of love" or "the idea
of love as an emotion". RMIMers will remember the well-known
Begum Akhtar ghazal : "Ai muhabbat tere anjaam pe rona aaya".
Here the reference is not to somebody's love for someone else
(i.e. any specific pyaar). The subsequent word "pyaar" refers
to the practical aspect of a specific nature i.e. a specific
love on the part of the hero for his leading lady. The meaning
would be something like : "Since my beloved does not seem to
believe in the very idea of Love, how can she be expected to
respond to MY love for her ?" If A has lent money to B who
refuses to repay the debt, A can say : If B does not even
believe in Honesty, how can he be expected to be honest to
his promise ?
I know the explanation sounds rather convoluted but, as I said,
it is my two cents' worth.
The problem is not solved if we merely state and believe that
the two words IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS SONG mean exactly the
same and are synonymous. In that case, the line becomes more
or less meaningless, which would detract from the beauty of
a wonderful song.
If any of our friends have a different explanation, I for one
would be very happy to know about it.
Afzal
Ashok
>
>Most of the respondents were very generous to the quiz in their comments
OK. Let me try to restore the balance. :)
>1. Though love is by no dictates taught
> Tell me, should I love you or not?
>#19/20
>
>This is a great song penned by a great poet. Soft supporting vocals by
>Asha in a lop-sided duet add to the beauty of the song. Unlike most of
>the other songs in this quiz, this is not entirely a playback song.
>Come to think of it, Nutan could have sung her bit and it could have
>been both singers singing for themselves.
Interesting idea. It did work out that way in "raahi matavaale"
from 'Waris.' I do like the joint effect produced by Talat and Asha
in the 'Sone Ki Chidiya' song, but now that you mention the possibility,
it is intriguing to speculate how Nutan would have come off. Quite
creditably, I think.
>A surprise tune from OPN, a
>far cry from his ghod.Da-gaa.Di numbers.
Stereotypes get entrenched precisley because they are partly true.
I do, however, feel that a group of afficianados, like RMIM is, should
be more interested in talking about the extent to which the stereotype
is invalid. Come on, any turkey who has casually followed Hindi film
music associates OPN with "ghoda ghadi" beat. Shouldn't we go
beyond that?
>Song: pyaar par bas to nahii.n hai meraa, lekin phir bhii
> tuu bataa de ke tujhe pyaar karuu.N yaa naa karuu.N
>Film : Sone ki Chi.diya
>Sing.: Talat, Asha
>Mus. : O P Nayyar
>Lyr. : Sahir Ludhianvi
>
>Tabassum : I doubt OPN deserves any credit for this song, its mainly
>Sahir's & Talat's song. Its lyrics which is real beauty of this song and
>Talat's voice has increased it.
Such an odd and out-of-place and out-of-context denigration of OP Nayyar
indicates general prejudice against the artist. The premise is simply not
true. What Tabassum says would be right only if the song is little more
than slightly musical recitation of the lines, but the song has a non-trivial
tune and especially tha antaraas are developed intricately. I find the music
director's effort in the song perfect in every respect: the slowly sung
beginning, followed by Asha's humming; memorable siaat interludes;
lovely tune for the stanzas, interlaced with Asha's aalaap to produce a
wonderful effect, etc. Both in the overall effect and appropriateness, and
in the details, I find the song to be exquisite.
>2. Its aught but sorrow today,
> I swear by the dusk sorrowing
> Come my love, do come this evening
>#20/20
>
>Some assert that this was the debut for Khayyam.
What kind of animals are these "some"? :) Mohammad Zahur used
the name Sharmaji for his first four films; also he was not the sole
MD for those films. 'Footpath' is the first film for which he was the
sole MD and also the first film in which he used the name Khaiyaam.
>Some also trace a
>similarity between this and the Phir Subah hogi title song in terms of
>its tune.
I am getting more and more intrigued by these "some"! Whoever
they are, they are bonkers here. I see no similarity between the songs
in terms of their tunes. Interestingly, as pointed out by Surajit Bose
sometime ago, a later Salil Chowdhury composition has the identical
tune as "shaam-e-gham ki qasam": the Lata song from 'Parakh':
"mere man ke diye."
>Song : shaam-e-Gam kii qasam aaj Gamagii.n hai.n ham
> aa bhii jaa aa bhii jaa aaj mere sanam
> shaam-e-Gam kii qasam
> dil pareshaan hai.n raat viiraan hai.n
> dekh jaa kis tarah aaj tanahaa hai.n ham
> shaam-e-Gam kii qasam
>Film : Footpath
>Sing.: Talat
>Mus. : Khayyam
>Lyr. : Majrooh Sultanpuri, Ali Sardar Jafri
>
>Kalyan : I don't know what got into DilipK to switch from Talat to
>Rafi and from Anil Biswas, Khaiyyam etc. to Naushad.
What evidence do you have to imply that Dilip was instrumental in
choosing the MD for his films? I would blame him more for his more
recent choice, that of Kalyanji-Anandji for the hopefully-forthcoming
'Kalinga.' I am assuming that as a director, he had a say. Why not
go back to Khaiyaam who has demonstrated that he can create
successful music as recently as the 80s? Dilip deserves to get the
same calibre of music in his directorial effort as he did in 'Gopi' as
an actor!
>8. My heart went abso' cuckoo
> The moment I set my eyes on you.
> I know this tale, is now yours too.
>#17/20
>
>This singer always regretted that he never worked much with
>Naushad.
Did he? Where? Or, is it "accoridng to some"? :) In any case,
why would Talat feel that way? Naushad has been a near-total
irrelenancy for Talat's career; one half-way decent song "mera
jeevan saathi bichhaD gayaa", and that's it.
Well, after this first pairing, there would be only one more
>film which saw the two work together - Love and God - which has a song
>in many voices, one of which was this singer's.
>
>Song : milate hii aa.Nkhe.n dil huaa diivaanaa kisiikaa
> afasaanaa meraa ban gayaa, afasaanaa kisiikaa
>Film : Babul
>Sing.: Talat, Shamshad Begum
>Mus. : Naushad
>Lyr. : Shakeel Badayuni
>
>BTW, are you sure that "Love and God" is the only other film in which
>Talat sang for Naushad? A curiosity-driven combination search in the
>RMIM song database tossed up two other films: "darwaaza" and "aadmi"
>(one duet in each). Can anyone shed further light on this?
>==>I have read a Talat interview where he himself says Babul was the
>only film. This interview precedes the release of Love & God, so he
>could be limiting himself to released films & songs. "Darwaaza" (ek dil
>do hain talabgaar) is by Nashad. I believe the Aadmi song was recorded
>over by Mahendra Kapoor in the version finally released.
No. The cassetter version of "kaisi haseen aaj bahaaron ki raat hai" IS
by Rafi and Talat. The film soundtrack has Mahendra Kapoor replacing
Talat.
>14. Come my heart, come away
> abrim with a world where sorrow dwells
> Come my heart, come seek
> for yourself a new home somewhere else
>#19/20
>
>A common accusation levelled against Shanker-Jaikishen was that their
>music lacked solid poetic content.
"A common accusation"? That music lacked "poetic" content?! Again,
the accusation must be by "some"!
My accusation against S-J (I am afraid it is not very common) is that
their music lacked solid "musical" content!
Most of the films the foursome took on in the 1960s were generic
and it reflected in their work. These lyricists' collaboration with other
music directors (e.g., Shailendra with Salil and SDB; and Hasrat with
Madan Mohan and Vasant Desai-Ramlal) were for films, which at
least had some individuality. I would rate the lyrics of Shailendra and
Hasrat for the 1950s films of S-J to be par for the course. Even in
the 1960s, given a moderately interesting theme, they did produce
quality lyrics, e.g., 'Amrapali', 'Aashiq', and of course, 'Teesri Kasam.'
>Vijay
Ashok
ani...@my-dejanews.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
> >Tabassum : I doubt OPN deserves any credit for this song, its mainly
> >Sahir's & Talat's song. Its lyrics which is real beauty of this song and
> >Talat's voice has increased it.
>
> Such an odd and out-of-place and out-of-context denigration of OP Nayyar
> indicates general prejudice against the artist. The premise is simply not
> true. What Tabassum says would be right only if the song is little more
> than slightly musical recitation of the lines, but the song has a non-trivial
> tune and especially tha antaraas are developed intricately. I find the music
> director's effort in the song perfect in every respect: the slowly sung
> beginning, followed by Asha's humming; memorable siaat interludes;
> lovely tune for the stanzas, interlaced with Asha's aalaap to produce a
> wonderful effect, etc. Both in the overall effect and appropriateness, and
> in the details, I find the song to be exquisite.
>
Ashok,
I am assuming you are praising OPN here. But...why for this song? Is there
evidence bayond doubt that this was his composition?:-)
Whoever composed this song did a great job, but it is also a fact that Talat
version is far superior to Asha's solo version, there by giving Tabassum's
statement some credence that the singer was hugely responsible for the
beauty of this song.
--
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
tabassum
>> >Sahir's & Talat's song. Its lyrics which is real beauty of this song and
>> >Talat's voice has increased it.
>>
>> Such an odd and out-of-place and out-of-context denigration of OP Nayyar
>> indicates general prejudice against the artist. The premise is simply not
>> true. What Tabassum says would be right only if the song is little more
>> than slightly musical recitation of the lines, but the song has a non-trivial
>> tune and especially tha antaraas are developed intricately. I find the music
>> director's effort in the song perfect in every respect: the slowly sung
>> beginning, followed by Asha's humming; memorable siaat interludes;
>> lovely tune for the stanzas, interlaced with Asha's aalaap to produce a
>> wonderful effect, etc. Both in the overall effect and appropriateness, and
>> in the details, I find the song to be exquisite.
>>
>
I was not 'denigration' OPN here, my statement was in reply to vijay's comment
about unusual OPN tune and it was my opinon about this partcular song only and
not generalisation about OPN.
Ashokji I am new to RMIMer and thought this newsgroup allows everyone to
express their views, looking at your reply style I doubt it now :-)
Tabassum
neha...@hotmail.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> >2. Its aught but sorrow today,
> > I swear by the dusk sorrowing
> > Come my love, do come this evening
> >#20/20
> >
> >Some assert that this was the debut for Khayyam.
>
> What kind of animals are these "some"? :) Mohammad Zahur used
> the name Sharmaji for his first four films; also he was not the sole
> MD for those films. 'Footpath' is the first film for which he was the
> sole MD and also the first film in which he used the name Khaiyaam.
Turkeys(and ones who have gone bonkers, too)! according to you, no? :)
Thanks for the info. This the first I have heard of it!
Maybe I must follow your command that rmimers should start reading RMIC, at
least I will start recognising turkeys!:))
Warmest Regards,
N(eha):)
Ashok
>> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>> >Tabassum : I doubt OPN deserves any credit for this song, its mainly
>> >Sahir's & Talat's song. Its lyrics which is real beauty of this song and
>> >Talat's voice has increased it.
>>
>> Such an odd and out-of-place and out-of-context denigration of OP Nayyar
>> indicates general prejudice against the artist. The premise is simply not
>> true. What Tabassum says would be right only if the song is little more
>> than slightly musical recitation of the lines, but the song has a non-trivial
>> tune and especially tha antaraas are developed intricately. I find the music
>> director's effort in the song perfect in every respect: the slowly sung
>> beginning, followed by Asha's humming; memorable siaat interludes;
>> lovely tune for the stanzas, interlaced with Asha's aalaap to produce a
>> wonderful effect, etc. Both in the overall effect and appropriateness, and
>> in the details, I find the song to be exquisite.
>I was not 'denigration' OPN here, my statement was in reply to vijay's comment
>about unusual OPN tune and it was my opinon about this partcular song only and
>not generalisation about OPN.
My point was: Your observation would be valid only if the music director's
work on the song is almost negligible and the song is memorable only for
its lyrics and rendition. I gave my arguments why I consider the music
director's contribution to the song signifcant. It is alright, if for any
given song, you place credit for the composer's contribution in the third
place after lyricist and singer; then I would defer to subjective differences.
But that is different from the claim that the composer dosn't deserve ANY credit.
>Ashokji I am new to RMIMer and thought this newsgroup allows everyone to
>express their views, looking at your reply style I doubt it now :-)
Tabassum
Tabassum Saahiba, I wouldn't want any RMIMer to be so discouraged by my
follow-up. As I look back on what I wrote, I agree my first sentence was
uncalled for. I am sorry.
Let me also add that I don't see any problem with the rest of my post.
Freedom of expression doesn't mean anything one has a right to give any
opinion unchallenged. It's a question of temperament and moods, the way
one reacts to unsubstantiated opinions/claims and, in the case of the
post by Anil which I tackle below, loose writing. I am going to dismantle
Anil's post and it might sound harsh, but I found the loose writing
irritating. According to me, it doesn't hurt if people think a bit before
posting.
>Ashok,
>
>I am assuming you are praising OPN here.
Read the portion you have quoted again. It should be clear that I
am praising the contribution of the music director to the making of
the Talat version of the song "pyaar par bas to nahi.n hai." If that
looks like unqualified praise of OP Nayyar, you can't read.
>But...why for this song?
Uffff! Because, my dear chap, this is the song being discussed.
> Is there
>evidence bayond doubt that this was his composition?:-)
Why don't you state clearly what you have in mind in stead of indulging
in winks, nudges, and smileys.
For the benefit of the RMIMers, I might add that I think Anil is here
referring to a rumour, which has some currency, that the 'Sone Ki Chidiya'
song was a Khaaiyaam composition; that Khaiyaam was the initially chosen
MD, but the producer decided that he wanted a an MD whose name was a better
box-office draw and switched to OPN; and that whatever work Khaiyaam had
put in went under OPN's name. I have heard of the rumour and I have myself
mentioned it in the past. But I haven't seen any person of repute go on
record with the claim. Until alternative evidence reaches a critical mass
I see no reason to question the presumption that it is an OPN composition.
Most RMIMers are capable of being arrogant, stubborn, and deluded fools
in their identification of markers of music directors and lyricists. They
don't seem to realize that these judgements are quite fallible. (I include
myself in that crowd.) Credit for a creation is a matter of fact, not of
opnion.
>Whoever composed this song did a great job,
If this is your conclusion, it is mystifying why you are addressing the
post to me! It directly contradicts Tabassum's evaluation.
>but it is also a fact that Talat
>version is far superior to Asha's solo version, there by giving Tabassum's
>statement some credence that the singer was hugely responsible for the
>beauty of this song.
>Anil P. Hingorani
I don't know where to start dealing with such muddled thinking and writing.
Logically, it would make sense if you reversed the two clauses in your
sentence and addressed it to Tabassum as: Talat version is far superior to
Asha's solo version, there by giving Tabassum's statement some credence that
the singer was hugely responsible for the beauty of this song, but it is also
a fact that whoever composed this song did a great job.
I did NOT claim that Talat did not do a good job; so, why are you bothering
me about it? Or are you proposing the silly notion that, if in a tandem song
one version is better, it must be due to the singer and the MD should get no
credit for the composition?!
Let me try to add some m;usic-related discussion!
Incidentally, I don't agree that the Talat version is "far" superior to the
Asha version. (Let me spoon-feed, to avoid misunderstanding: Talat version
is superior, but not far superior.) I find that the Asha version also has
magic. The following seems to be quite generally true: in tandem songs, the
somewhat better version becomes highly popular and the other version ends up
becoming less popular even than some often inferior songs from the same film.
A few other examples are: "jeevan ke safar me.n raahi" and "aye mere dil kahi.n
aur chal." In all these three cases, the versions are somewhat different and
I like both, but the female solo versions became less popular than what was
due them. I can even think of one example where I find the less well-known
version to be better: the sad version of "raahi matavaale", sung primarily
by Suraiya.
Ashok
ani...@my-dejanews.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> opinion unchallenged. It's a question of temperament and moods, the way
> one reacts to unsubstantiated opinions/claims and, in the case of the
> post by Anil which I tackle below, loose writing. I am going to dismantle
> Anil's post and it might sound harsh, but I found the loose writing
> irritating. According to me, it doesn't hurt if people think a bit before
> posting.
>
Harsh? Your words/language? Never! :-):-):-)
> put in went under OPN's name. I have heard of the rumour and I have myself
> mentioned it in the past. But I haven't seen any person of repute go on
> record with the claim.
Since you claim to have mentioned it in the past, are you saying you are not
a person of repute? Or is it that you did not go on record with it, and your's
too was an unsubstantiated claim.
> don't seem to realize that these judgements are quite fallible. (I include
> myself in that crowd.) Credit for a creation is a matter of fact, not of
> opnion.
>
Quite a profound statement! Creation is indeed a matter of fact, but getting
credit for it in the Indian film industry is not always so.
> Incidentally, I don't agree that the Talat version is "far" superior to the
> Asha version. (Let me spoon-feed, to avoid misunderstanding: Talat version
> is superior, but not far superior.) I find that the Asha version also has
> magic.
It's a matter of opinion. I think Asha's humming in the Talat version is
"far" superior to the entire Asha version of the song.
--
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
arup ray
("pyaar par bas to nahin hai") was a far cry from the OPN Ghora Gari numbers -
though "legally accurate" was misleading (aren't we getting enough of those lately).
It leads one to believe that the Ghora Gaari meter was the main forte of OPN. I
find OPN to be quite versatile, and this tendency to dismiss his songs as fast,
toe-tapping, finger-snapping ditties as quite unfortunate. OPN does have some great
slow tunes. One that is one of my all time favourites is the C.H. Atma song "Is
Bewaafa Jahaan mein". The beauty of this tune is incredible. As for the claim that
OPN had very little to add to the song "Pyar par bas to nahin hai" - I find that
hard to believe. Sahir's poetry is beautiful - so is Talat's rendition but the
aspect of the song that leaves a lasting impression is the simplicity of the tune
and the wonderful synergy that is created by the humming of Asha. This interplay
of singers, tune and poetry is, in my opinion, the music director's domain. So if
we agree that this was a great song we have to agree that it was OPN who was able to
bring all of these aspects together in a beautiful package - and in doing so admit
that OPN is not just a master of percussion and beats (mainly Ghoraa Gaari) but a
composer with versatility.
Regards,
-Arup
===========================================================
Arup Ray
MCI WorldCom Inc.
McLean, VA 22102
===========================================================
tabassum wrote:
> In article <70ffpg$v1a$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, ani...@my-dejanews.com says...
> >
> >In article <708sce$1...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> > ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Tabassum : I doubt OPN deserves any credit for this song, its mainly
> >> >Sahir's & Talat's song. Its lyrics which is real beauty of this song and
> >> >Talat's voice has increased it.
> >>
> >> Such an odd and out-of-place and out-of-context denigration of OP Nayyar
> >> indicates general prejudice against the artist. The premise is simply not
> >> true. What Tabassum says would be right only if the song is little more
> >> than slightly musical recitation of the lines, but the song has a non-trivial
> >> tune and especially tha antaraas are developed intricately. I find the music
> >> director's effort in the song perfect in every respect: the slowly sung
> >> beginning, followed by Asha's humming; memorable siaat interludes;
> >> lovely tune for the stanzas, interlaced with Asha's aalaap to produce a
> >> wonderful effect, etc. Both in the overall effect and appropriateness, and
> >> in the details, I find the song to be exquisite.
> >>
> >
> >Ashok,
>
> I was not 'denigration' OPN here, my statement was in reply to vijay's comment
> about unusual OPN tune and it was my opinon about this partcular song only and
> not generalisation about OPN.
>
> Ashokji I am new to RMIMer and thought this newsgroup allows everyone to
> express their views, looking at your reply style I doubt it now :-)
>
> Tabassum
>
Roopa Dhawan
> > than slightly musical recitation of the lines, but the song has a non-trivial
> > tune and especially tha antaraas are developed intricately. I find the music
> > director's effort in the song perfect in every respect: the slowly sung
> > beginning, followed by Asha's humming; memorable siaat interludes;
> > lovely tune for the stanzas, interlaced with Asha's aalaap to produce a
> > wonderful effect, etc. Both in the overall effect and appropriateness, and
> > in the details, I find the song to be exquisite.
> >
>
>
> I am assuming you are praising OPN here. But...why for this song? Is there
> evidence bayond doubt that this was his composition?:-)
> version is far superior to Asha's solo version, there by giving Tabassum's
> statement some credence that the singer was hugely responsible for the
> beauty of this song.
>
By that token, Anil, all songs which have two or more versions, in
which one version is better liked, are songs for which the music
composer should get little or no credit. For example, if "chandan sa
badan", "dil jo na keh saka", "teri aankhon ke sivaa", are not
considered equally pleasing in both their versions, then we have to
assume the musical composition has little or no value.
I'm inclined to say that, in "pyaar par bas to nahin hai", if the Talat
version is considered better, then it's because (for those who consider
it so) Talat sang it better, not because OPN did a bad job!
Come to think of it, if I were to sing second versions of every song,
no music composer would ever get any credit!
That last ridiculous comment notwithstanding,
Regards,
Roopa
vijay...@my-dejanews.com
> >
> >Most of the respondents were very generous to the quiz in their comments
>
> OK. Let me try to restore the balance. :)
I was waiting for a long time for Ashok's response to turn up on my regular
News server, but since it has not, I decided to reply via Deja News.
>
> >1. Though love is by no dictates taught
> > Tell me, should I love you or not?
> >#19/20
> >
> >This is a great song penned by a great poet. Soft supporting vocals by
> >Asha in a lop-sided duet add to the beauty of the song. Unlike most of
> >the other songs in this quiz, this is not entirely a playback song.
> >Come to think of it, Nutan could have sung her bit and it could have
> >been both singers singing for themselves.
>
> Interesting idea. It did work out that way in "raahi matavaale"
> from 'Waris.' I do like the joint effect produced by Talat and Asha
> in the 'Sone Ki Chidiya' song, but now that you mention the possibility,
> it is intriguing to speculate how Nutan would have come off. Quite
> creditably, I think.
>
Wonder if there are many post 1960 duets with no 'playback' singing. would be
surprised, because the number of singing stars was greatly on the decline.
> >A surprise tune from OPN, a
> >far cry from his ghod.Da-gaa.Di numbers.
>
> Stereotypes get entrenched precisley because they are partly true.
> I do, however, feel that a group of afficianados, like RMIM is, should
> be more interested in talking about the extent to which the stereotype
> is invalid. Come on, any turkey who has casually followed Hindi film
> music associates OPN with "ghoda ghadi" beat. Shouldn't we go
> beyond that?
Read my clue again. I am not saying that the *only* stuff that OPN creates
are his "gho.Da-gaa.Dii" numbers. However, I *am* saying that this tune is a
surprise, coming from OPN. I would readily acknowledge the diversity of tunes
that OPN has come up with, ranging from Aar Paar to CID, from Kashmir ki Kali
to Kismat. However, there is nothing in his non "gho.Daa gaa.Dii" tunes to
prepare his audiences for this song. I did feel that the odd 'priitam aan
milo' notwithstanding, he did himself injustice by not venturing into more
'different' music, something like the Rahman of today. To take an analogy,
it's like PG Wodehouse, once you have read a few, you have read them all. The
words keep changing, but the motif does not. OPN did use the harmonium-Dholak
combination to good effect, but also used it almost to the exclusion of
everything else in his recording room.
> >2. Its aught but sorrow today,
> > I swear by the dusk sorrowing
> > Come my love, do come this evening
> >#20/20
> >
> >Some assert that this was the debut for Khayyam.
>
> What kind of animals are these "some"? :) Mohammad Zahur used
> the name Sharmaji for his first four films; also he was not the sole
> MD for those films. 'Footpath' is the first film for which he was the
> sole MD and also the first film in which he used the name Khaiyaam.
>
So, is this a debut or is it not? It is a debut for Khayyam, but not for
Sharmaji, which seems paradoxical since they are both the same person. I have
known this since about 1991 or so when it popped up in a quiz, but there are
still several people who think that this was where Khayyam started off.
Can you or some other RMIMer list which are the other four films where he was
the co-composer as Sharmaji? Did he ever use the name again after Footpath?
> >Some also trace a
> >similarity between this and the Phir Subah hogi title song in terms of
> >its tune.
>
> I am getting more and more intrigued by these "some"! Whoever
> they are, they are bonkers here. I see no similarity between the songs
> in terms of their tunes. Interestingly, as pointed out by Surajit Bose
> sometime ago, a later Salil Chowdhury composition has the identical
> tune as "shaam-e-gham ki qasam": the Lata song from 'Parakh':
> "mere man ke diye."
>
This time around the "some" is me and a few of my friends with whom I have
discussed this. As you hum the opening bars of the prelude of "shaam-e-gham",
a clear reference to "wo subah kabhii to aayegii" emerges. The tune is less
discernibly similar later on in either song, but one does catch glimpses of
the commonality. You may feel differently.
> >8. My heart went abso' cuckoo
> > The moment I set my eyes on you.
> > I know this tale, is now yours too.
> >#17/20
> >
> >This singer always regretted that he never worked much with
> >Naushad.
>
> Did he? Where? Or, is it "accoridng to some"? :) In any case,
> why would Talat feel that way? Naushad has been a near-total
> irrelenancy for Talat's career; one half-way decent song "mera
> jeevan saathi bichhaD gayaa", and that's it.
>
Much of my comments in this quiz are based on my recollections of a Talat
interview in one Illustrated Weekly issue. In this he clearly says that he
would have expected that someone like Naushad who understood the nuances of
good poetry would have appreciated Talat's finesse at delivering it, and so,
regrets that they did not work together more, implying that HFM was deprived
of good songs because of a near absence of that combination.
> >Well, after this first pairing, there would be only one more
> >film which saw the two work together - Love and God - which has a song
> >in many voices, one of which was this singer's.
The song referred to is "rahegaa jahaa.N me.n teraa naam"
> >
> >Song : milate hii aa.Nkhe.n dil huaa diivaanaa kisiikaa
> > afasaanaa meraa ban gayaa, afasaanaa kisiikaa
> >Film : Babul
> >Sing.: Talat, Shamshad Begum
> >Mus. : Naushad
> >Lyr. : Shakeel Badayuni
> >
> >BTW, are you sure that "Love and God" is the only other film in which
> >Talat sang for Naushad? A curiosity-driven combination search in the
> >RMIM song database tossed up two other films: "darwaaza" and "aadmi"
> >(one duet in each). Can anyone shed further light on this?
> >==>I have read a Talat interview where he himself says Babul was the
> >only film. This interview precedes the release of Love & God, so he
> >could be limiting himself to released films & songs. "Darwaaza" (ek dil
> >do hain talabgaar) is by Nashad. I believe the Aadmi song was recorded
> >over by Mahendra Kapoor in the version finally released.
>
> No. The cassette version of "kaisi haseen aaj bahaaron ki raat hai" IS
> by Rafi and Talat. The film soundtrack has Mahendra Kapoor replacing
> Talat.
>
Thanks for the clarification. The interview referred to is the same Weekly
issue
> >14. Come my heart, come away
> > abrim with a world where sorrow dwells
> > Come my heart, come seek
> > for yourself a new home somewhere else
> >#19/20
> >
> >A common accusation levelled against Shanker-Jaikishen was that their
> >music lacked solid poetic content.
>
> "A common accusation"? That music lacked "poetic" content?! Again,
> the accusation must be by "some"!
>
This was also culled from the same Talat interview (I am afraid I know it
almost by heart!). He says that at that time people used to say that SJ's
songs did not have any great poetry.
> My accusation against S-J (I am afraid it is not very common) is that
> their music lacked solid "musical" content!
>
> Most of the films the foursome took on in the 1960s were generic
While I would not mind saying that SJ's Shammi Kapoor films were 'generic', I
do think that RajK's films were interesting in their diversity. Boot Polish,
Ab dilli duur nahii.N, Jaagate Raho, Shri 420 - you can't have more
diversity. Shailendra-Hasrat-SJ worked on two of these, would you say they
are known for their poetic content? I already have trouble defending RK's
work with some of my 'connoiseur' friends, and do not expect to have much
chance of doing it here. Leave that to 'opinion'. Point is,
Shailendra-Hasrat's work for SJ does not stand out even in 'different' films.
> and it reflected in their work. These lyricists' collaboration with other
> music directors (e.g., Shailendra with Salil and SDB; and Hasrat with
> Madan Mohan and Vasant Desai-Ramlal) were for films, which at
> least had some individuality. I would rate the lyrics of Shailendra and
> Hasrat for the 1950s films of S-J to be par for the course. Even in
> the 1960s, given a moderately interesting theme, they did produce
> quality lyrics, e.g., 'Amrapali', 'Aashiq', and of course, 'Teesri Kasam.'
>
Teesri Kasam was a Shaliendra pet project and its having quality lyrics is no
surprise.
The idea is not to say that Hasrat could *never* have produced good lyrics,
but rather to imply that in the midst of poets like Sahir, Shakeel, Rajendra
Kishan, Kaifi, Shailendra etc. Hasrat was the equivalent of today's Sameer -
a lyric machine with an odd good poem thrown in.
regards
Vijay
Hemlata N. Khemani
> > the 1960s, given a moderately interesting theme, they did produce
> > quality lyrics, e.g., 'Amrapali', 'Aashiq', and of course, 'Teesri Kasam.'
> >
> Teesri Kasam was a Shaliendra pet project and its having quality lyrics is no
> surprise.
>
> The idea is not to say that Hasrat could *never* have produced good lyrics,
> but rather to imply that in the midst of poets like Sahir, Shakeel, Rajendra
> Kishan, Kaifi, Shailendra etc. Hasrat was the equivalent of today's Sameer -
> a lyric machine with an odd good poem thrown in.
This reminds me of a comment made sometime back on RMIM by UVR which said
something like "Hasrat's lyrics are pedestrian and I can write better than
that". I had challenged him to do so and we are yet to see the "better"
lyrics, but that's a different story.;-)) The point is that he in turn
had challenged me to find one song written by Hasrat which was not
pedestrian (meaning extra-ordinary) and I haven't found it yet! :)) So
yes, to say in the same sentence that Shailendra and Hasrat produced
quality lyrics is IMO an insult to Shailendra.
Oh BTW, if anyone comes across a song by Hasrat whose lyrics have an
extraordinary quality, please let me know.
Hema.
sm...@lehigh.edu
>yes, to say in the same sentence that Shailendra and Hasrat produced
>quality lyrics is IMO an insult to Shailendra.
You mean one shouldn't accuse Shaliendra of quality lyrics ?
>Oh BTW, if anyone comes across a song by Hasrat whose lyrics have an
>extraordinary quality, please let me know.
\begin{flame bait}
If anyone comes across a song by SHAILENDRA whose lyrics have an extraordinary
quality, please let me know.
\end{flame bait}
I'm not a fan of either Hasrat or Shailendra, but a couple of my fav. Shanky-J
GHazals were penned by the former: "Unke quayaal aae to aate chale gae..." and
"Aae bahaar banke lubhakar chale gae...". Oh yes, another good GHazal "Hain
sabse madhur woh geet jinhe..." is by Shailendra. But, I don't find anything
special about the lyrics of Teesri Quasam - a good movie, BTW, but for Raj
Kapoor's antics.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>Hema.
sanjeev
> ......
> I'm not a fan of either Hasrat or Shailendra, but a couple of my fav.
> Shanky-J GHazals were penned by the former: "Unke quayaal aae to aate
> chale gae..." and "Aae bahaar banke lubhakar chale gae...". Oh yes,
> another good GHazal "Hain sabse madhur woh geet jinhe..." is by
> Shailendra. But, I don't find anything special about the lyrics of
> Teesri Quasam - a good movie, BTW, but for Raj Kapoor's antics.
Was this supposed to be a flame bait too? 'Cause, I for one, thought
he acted exceptionally well in this one. RK was always a better
actor (ONLY when others directed) than a actor (when he directed).
Sanjeev
sm...@lehigh.edu
Sorry for having misled you. I completely agree with you that RK was a great
actor when others directed. I liked him a lot in Teesri Quasam but for a few
scenes.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>Sanjeev
vijay...@my-dejanews.com
<Pine.GSO.3.96L.98102...@coyote.labs.cis.pitt.edu>,
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 vijay...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > > the 1960s, given a moderately interesting theme, they did produce
> > > quality lyrics, e.g., 'Amrapali', 'Aashiq', and of course, 'Teesri Kasam.'
> > >
> > Teesri Kasam was a Shaliendra pet project and its having quality lyrics is
no
> > surprise.
> >
> > The idea is not to say that Hasrat could *never* have produced good lyrics,
> > but rather to imply that in the midst of poets like Sahir, Shakeel, Rajendra
> > Kishan, Kaifi, Shailendra etc. Hasrat was the equivalent of today's Sameer -
> > a lyric machine with an odd good poem thrown in.
>
> This reminds me of a comment made sometime back on RMIM by UVR which said
> something like "Hasrat's lyrics are pedestrian and I can write better than
> that". I had challenged him to do so and we are yet to see the "better"
> lyrics, but that's a different story.;-)) The point is that he in turn
> had challenged me to find one song written by Hasrat which was not
> pedestrian (meaning extra-ordinary) and I haven't found it yet! :)) So
> yes, to say in the same sentence that Shailendra and Hasrat produced
> quality lyrics is IMO an insult to Shailendra.
>
> Oh BTW, if anyone comes across a song by Hasrat whose lyrics have an
> extraordinary quality, please let me know.
>
>
OK, not saying that these lyrics are extra-ordinary, but just to buttress the
point that Hasrat was capable of the odd good poem, even with SJ composing.
Here is a song I was listening to today.
% ITRANS Song #
%
\startsong
\stitle{}%
\film{Aas ka panchhi}%
\starring{Shashikala}%
\singer{Rafi, chorus}%
\music{Shanker Jaikishan}%
\lyrics{Hasrat Jaipuri}%
%
% Contributor: K Vijay Kumar (vijay...@hotmail.com)
% Transliterator: K Vijay Kumar (vijay...@hotmail.com)
% Date:
% Credits:
% Editor:
% Comments:
%
%\printtitle
#indian
%
zamii.n kaaGaz kii ban jaaye, samundar roshanaaI kaa
bayaa.n phir bhii na hogaa hamase yah kissaa judaaI kaa
chaar dino.n kii chhuTTi hai aur unase jaa kar milanaa hai
jis maa.Ng ne dil ko maa.Ng liyaa us maa.Ng me.n taare bharana hai
ch : ab chaar dino.n kii chhuTTi hai aur unase jaa kar milanaa hai
jis maa.Ng ne dil ko maa.Ng liyaa us maa.Ng me.n taare bharana hai
dil apanaa abhii se dha.Dake hai dekhe.nge unhe.n to kyaa hogaa
ham hosh bhii apane kho de.nge mastii se bharaa jalavaa hogaa
vah saamane ho phir aaye mazaa, kuchh kehanaa hai, kuchh sunanaa hai
ch : ab chaar dino.n kii chhuTTi hai aur unase jaa kar milanaa hai
jis maa.Ng ne dil ko maa.Ng liyaa us maa.Ng me.n taare bharana hai
vah bhii to hamaarii raaho.n me.n zulfo.n ko sa.nvaare aaye.nge
aur phuul chamelii ke gajare khush ho ke hame.n pahanaaye.nge
ab chaa.Nd kii tarah chamakanaa hai, suuraj kii tarah se nikalanaa hai
ch : ab chaar dino.n kii chhuTTi hai aur unase jaa kar milanaa hai
jis maa.Ng ne dil ko maa.Ng liyaa us maa.Ng me.n taare bharana hai
aa.nkho.n me.n javaa.n shikave ho.nge, ho.nTho.n pe ha.Nsii laharaayegii
saaGar se milegii jab nadiyaa tuufaan pe raunak aayegii
ab baadal banake barasanaa hai, maujo.n kii tarah se ubharanaa hai
ch : ab chaar dino.n kii chhuTTi hai aur unase jaa kar milanaa hai
jis maa.Ng ne dil ko maa.Ng liyaa us maa.Ng me.n taare bharana hai
vah hamase kahe.nge sharamaake, parades gaye the kyaa laaye
ham unase kahe.nge jaan-e-jahaa.n dil apanaa bachaa ke le aaye
ab aa.nkh milaao baat karo, ham saamane hai.n kyaa pardaa hai
ch : ab chaar dino.n kii chhuTTi hai aur unase jaa kar milanaa hai
jis maa.Ng ne dil ko maa.Ng liyaa us maa.Ng me.n taare bharana hai
%
#endindian
\endsong
%
Kalyan
> >quality lyrics is IMO an insult to Shailendra.
>
Looks like the association with SJ is bringing down Shailendra and Hasrat
as well. I'll leave the defense to others as I don't know where to start
defending the lyricist for classics like Guide, Sujata, Bandini, Munimji,
Awara, Teesri kasam, Meri surat teri aankhen, Madhumati, Door gagan ki
chaon mein, Jaagte raho etc and who was the fav. lyricist of Salil and
SDB besides SJ.
Perhaps Sami can explain what he doesn't like about Shailendra? Could
it be that he wrote predominantly in Hindi? For I have seen that RMIMers
in general seem to have a preference for lyricists who use more Urdu.
e.g lyricists like Sahir, Kaifi, Shakeel have more fan following in RMIM
than for comparable (IMO) ones like Shailendra, Bharat Vyas, Rajendra Krishna,
Pradeep, Neeraj, RMA Khan, D.N. Madhok, Hasrat etc.
So in addition to largely unsubstantiated (except for random potshots
at some of their 60's output) barbs at SJ, we now have those directed
at Shailendra and Hasrat. Perhaps they should have taken lessons in
poetry and Urdu from the self-styled poets in RMIM.
>
> >Oh BTW, if anyone comes across a song by Hasrat whose lyrics have an
> >extraordinary quality, please let me know.
>
> \begin{flame bait}
>
> If anyone comes across a song by SHAILENDRA whose lyrics have an extraordinary
> quality, please let me know.
>
> \end{flame bait}
Here's a corresponding flame bait from my side.
\begin{flame bait}
If anyone can name a single soundtrack of SJ from the 50's that is
average or below average, let me know. Here are some of those (I for
one consider them classics).
Patrani, Badshah, Basant Bahaar, New Delhi, Aurat, Poonam, Shikast,
Halaaku, Kali ghata, Rajhath etc.
Rarely have specific SJ soundtarcks been discussed in RMIM. It has
almost always been the generic and implicit bashing of SJ.
IMO, anybody who's critical of SJ is either ignorant of their high
quality output in the 50's or is blinded by bias. They simply prefer
to dwell on their 60's output and ignore the fact that a majority
of their output was before the 60's.
\end{flame bait}
>
> I'm not a fan of either Hasrat or Shailendra, but a couple of my fav. Shanky-J
^^^^^^
I long for the day when this hideous term (along with Shanky-Junky) goes
away from RMIM. Or maybe we shd invent ones for others (e.g Naushad Ali
can be replaced with the shorter Nausea, Nash or the plain and simple
Al :))
Cheers,
Kalyan
Snehal B. Oza
Thanks Vijay for lyrics of this song (and for Pstat info). Hasrat not capable
of good lyrics is not a good statement. I can't forget that 'Aa Nile Gagan Tale
Payaar Hum Karen' is by Hasrat. I can't help but notice that majority of songs
in Barsaat (1949) are by him and all are superlative (lyrically). Who wrote
'Jiya Beqaraar Hai' ? Was it Hzarat Josh Malihabadi or Hasrat ? IIRC, Rafi's
great rendition on Raichand Boral's tune to such good ghazal 'Humne To
Dard-E-Dil Ko Tammanna Bana Liya' was Hasarat Jaipuri's creation. Coming back
to Baadshah (1953), 'Lo aaye Hain Din Pyaar Karane Ke' is also by Hasarat. So
is Naya Ghar (1953) song: Laga Kar Dil Parishaan Hai Muhobat Dekh Li Hum Ne.
I am sure all would have liked 'Kaahe Ko Der Lagaai Re' from Daag (1952). Next
higher level of poetry is also from same film in Talat song 'Chaand Ek Bewa Ki
Chudi Ki Tarah ... Koi Nai Mera Is Duniya Me' Can any ordinary poet write
following ?
Mausam Dukho.n Ka Sar Pe Hai Chhaya
Mujh Se Juda Hai Khud Mera Saaya !
Of by god poetry we are looking for song like 'Hain Saub Se Madhur Woh Geet'
whereby poet gives some "sa.nDesh' then here is one from Hasarat:
Bhara Hai Pet To Sansar Jagmagaata Hai
Sataaye Bhuk To Imaan Dagmagaata Hai
In fact Seema is showcase of lovely Hasarat lyrics !! Despite Shaliendra's
'Tu Pyaar Ka Saagar Hai' and/or 'Kahaan Jaa Raha Hai' it's 'Suno Chhoti Si
Gudiya Ki Lambi Kahaani' that catches my imagination. It not only has the
best music out of all songs, but best choice of words too. Not too far behind
is song picturezed on Ms. Khote: 'Baat Baat Me Rutho Na'.
I am more surprised when I turn to Chori Chori (1956). Film's best song is
a Hasarat Jaipuri creation: 'Rasik Balama'. Take other Hasarat creations as
well:
Panchhi Banu Udti Phirun
Is Paar Saajan Us Paar Dhare?
Aja Sanam Madhur Chaandani Me Hum
Ok, Next!
IIRC, Puja (1954) song 'Jo Ik Baar Keh Do' is also by Hasrat. Same for 'Aaye
Bahaar Ban Kar Lubha Kar'. I am sure if Sahir had written that one, it would
have been termed as classic, but since it's Hasrat: Nay! What about songs from
Sehara (1962?) MD Ramlal ? How about 'Raat Ka Sama' from Ziddi ? Or 'Yaad Kiya
Dil Ne Kahan Ho Tum' ? How do you find 'Muhobat Aisi Dhdkan Hai' from Anarkali ?
How about 'Shama Me Taakat Kahan Jo Ek Parwaane Me Hai' ? Or 'Main Garibo Ka
Dil Hun' ?
List can go on. Not all prolific song writers are bad. The ony similarity
between Sameer, Hasrat or Majrooh is that they all have numerous songs but
last two managed with good quality as well.
What I admire more of Hasrat is his talent that could write for music directors
having different styles: Madan Mohan to OP Nayyar (soft song makers to fast
song makers). To be able to write for R C Boral is no mean achievement.
Not all could do it. Except Naushad (or did he?) he worked with almost all MDs.
Since he worked more with Shailendra -- a classic poet himself -- we tend to
compare Hasrat with him. Before dumping him one must realize that almost all
time he matches or catches with Shailendra. Try to look at his work where
Shailendra is not part of film, and that would give idea of his glitter.
Regards,
Snehal
sm...@lehigh.edu
>> >yes, to say in the same sentence that Shailendra and Hasrat produced
>> >quality lyrics is IMO an insult to Shailendra.
>>
>> You mean one shouldn't accuse Shaliendra of quality lyrics ?
>
>Looks like the association with SJ is bringing down Shailendra and Hasrat
>as well. I'll leave the defense to others as I don't know where to start
>defending the lyricist for classics like Guide, Sujata, Bandini, Munimji,
>Awara, Teesri kasam, Meri surat teri aankhen, Madhumati, Door gagan ki
>chaon mein, Jaagte raho etc
I should take my comment back. Shailendra was good atleast in a couple of
songs of Sujata ("Jalte hain jiske lie...") and Munimji ("Jeevan ke safar me
raahi..." :-)
>who was the fav. lyricist of Salil and
>SDB besides SJ.
Not at all surprising considering that neither Salil nor SDB was good at
Hindi :-)
>Perhaps Sami can explain what he doesn't like about Shailendra?
Perhaps, Sami doesn't think that Shailendra was good consisitently despite
exhibiting flashes of brilliance.
IMHO, Shailendra wasn't on the same level as Sahir or Kaifi. I personally
don't find depth in his lyrics. Lines like "bhala kije bhala hoga, bura kije
bura hoga" don't appeal to me as it does to others. There are some songs, such
as those in Bandini, that I like. But on the whole, I don't find his output
extraordinary. You seem to find Guide to be a lyrical masterpiece. I find
those lyrics very average. Those are oft-repeated thoughts in songs which have
not even been expressed in a unique manner.
>Could it be that he wrote predominantly in Hindi?
No. Sami just adores Sahir's HINDI lyrics in Chitralekha. And this is NOT a
Hindi vs. Urdu thing as you seem to imply.
>For I have seen that RMIMers
>in general seem to have a preference for lyricists who use more Urdu.
>e.g lyricists like Sahir, Kaifi, Shakeel have more fan following in RMIM
Don't forget that "Greek and Latin" lyricists (Gulzar) have a massive
following too :-)
>So in addition to largely unsubstantiated (except for random potshots
>at some of their 60's output) barbs at SJ, we now have those directed
>at Shailendra and Hasrat. Perhaps they should have taken lessons in
>poetry and Urdu from the self-styled poets in RMIM.
Perhaps, they should. BTW, who are these "self-styled poets in RMIM" ?
Is this another barb at unsubstantiated targets ?
>> >Oh BTW, if anyone comes across a song by Hasrat whose lyrics have a
>> >extraordinary quality, please let me know.
It's surprising that you let this pass to the wicket-keeper and picked on my
similar comment about Shailendra. Barq girti hai to Sahir ke parwaanon par :-(
>Here's a corresponding flame bait from my side.
>
>\begin{flame bait}
>
>If anyone can name a single soundtrack of SJ from the 50's that is
>average or below average, let me know. Here are some of those (I for
>one consider them classics).
>Patrani, Badshah, Basant Bahaar, New Delhi, Aurat, Poonam, Shikast,
>Halaaku, Kali ghata, Rajhath etc.
Basant Bahaar would be a good place for you to start.
>IMO, anybody who's critical of SJ is either ignorant of their high
>quality output in the 50's or is blinded by bias. They simply prefer
>to dwell on their 60's output and ignore the fact that a majority
>of their output was before the 60's.
You are free to cultivate your own opinions, however silly they might be.
>> I'm not a fan of either Hasrat or Shailendra, but a couple of my fav.
>> Shanky-J
> ^^^^^^
>I long for the day when this hideous term (along with Shanky-Junky) goes
>away from RMIM. Or maybe we shd invent ones for others (e.g Naushad Ali
>can be replaced with the shorter Nausea, Nash or the plain and simple
>Al :))
This is amusing. You yourself have made quite a few condescending remarks reg.
Naushad in the past. You should be the last person to accuse others of
name-calling. You would do well to pay heed to Raj Kumar's famous advice
to Chenoi Seth in Waqt - the one about sheeshe ke ghar and pathhar. You are
free to call Naushad whatever you like if that'll soothe the wounds caused
by the Shanky-J appellation.
It wasn't surprising that, of all the MDs, you picked Naushad - my fav. - as
the example. But it doesn't matter to me as to what you call him because I'm a
fan of that great man's music and not the name by which people call him.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)... who doesn't find Shaky-J's music great
*****************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Humse diwane kahin tark-e-wafa karte hain
Jaan jaae ke rahe, baat nibhaalete hain
Sahir in "Jurm-e-ulfat pe hume log saza dete hain..."
*****************************************************************************
____________________
The URDU/HINDI film music page has moved to a new site:
http://www.geocities.com/~sm0e/sami.html
FHN55555
>it's like PG Wodehouse, once you have read a few, you have read them all. The
>words keep changing, but the motif does not.
A non-RMIM relevant protest but I cannot let such a slur on PG Wodehouse pass
unchallenged. All his books are the same????!!!!! My dear man, it is obvious
that your acquaintance with Mr. Wodehous's work has been limited in the
extreme. It would be my great pleasure to carry on this conversation via e-mail
since this is utterly irrelevant to RMIM. Anyone who agrees or disagrees with
me is also welcome to contact me.
Nita
(a very devout fan of British humour)
FHN55555
Thanks Snehal for reminding us of Hasrat Jaipuri's compositions. He suffered a
simialr fate in Urdu poetry circles too, where he was never taken seriously.
While I cannot put him on par with Sahir and Shakeel as far as Urdu poetry is
concerned, he did write quite a few nice ghazals. But his name seems to be
totally absent from the roll call of Urdu poets.
Recently, Ghulam Ali has sung a few of his ghazals, which seems to have given
him a veneer of acceptability, much like what Begum Akhtar's rendition of
Shakeel's poetry did for Shakeel. (no offense to Shakeel or Shakeel fans -
just giving an anology).
I have a couple of his Gazals on my site. It is difficult to lay hands on his
non-filmi Gazals. I would appreciate it if someone could offer some information
about his non-filmi compilations, if any.
jahaan-e-ishq me.n sohanii kahii.n dikhaa_ii de
ham apanii aa.Nkh me.n kitane chanaab rakhate hai.n
(Hasrat Jaipuri)
Nita
Visit My Urdu Poetry Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/6631/index.html