Poll: Mukesh, Moh'd, Kishore?
Ronny Singh
Sanjay Joshi
>Who was the best?
>
>
WHo else, but the great Kishore Kumar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jairaj, Vinod
The answer is obvious- Mukesh- who else?? (if I infringed on any
patents, please forgive me, and don't sue me!)
Vinod
On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Ronny Singh wrote:
> Date: Fri, 19 APR 1996 23:11:12 -0700
> From: Ronny Singh <shar...@sirius.com>
> Newgroups: rec.music.indian.misc
> Subject: Poll: Mukesh, Moh'd, Kishore?
>
> Who was the best?
>
>
Dharmesh Patel
> Who was the best?
hi!
They were all good in their respective styles of singing. However, if
your question is 'Who do you think is the best?' Then I must say Rafi!
Because I love his style. This is not to say that Mukesh or KK are any
worse than Rafi, but it's just my opinion.
--------------------------+----------------------------------------------
| \ / __ | Dharmesh Patel / CIS Student at NJIT |
- \| \ / | \ | E - Mail : dxp...@hertz.njit.edu |
/ | X | | | URL=http://hertz.njit.edu/~dxp8108 |
| | / \ | / | "Madhuri Dixit's Unofficial Home Page" |
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Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Ronny Singh wrote:
>
>>Who was the best?
>>
>>
>
I'll tell you who else - MOHD. RAFI!!!! (in my opinion, of course...here
we go again...)
.
s
Syed Rizwan
>Who was the best?
the Answer is........
D. None of the above.
Please refer to my article about the number one singer a few minutes
ago..
Rizwan
Sanjay Joshi
>In article <Pine.GSO.3.93.960420...@eesun1.tamu.edu> Sanjay Joshi <jo...@ee.tamu.edu> writes:
>>On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Ronny Singh wrote:
>>
>>>Who was the best?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>WHo else, but the great Kishore Kumar.
>
>I'll tell you who else - MOHD. RAFI!!!! (in my opinion, of course...here
>we go again...)
>.
>s
KISHORE KUMAR!!!!!!!
S.Jagadish
KISHORE KUMAR !!!!
--
S.Jagadish
mailto:SF91...@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG
Nanyang Technological University
Die hard Kamal Haasan visiri ... "Vaazhga Kamal, Vaazhga Kalai"
Mayajaal : http://www2.ntu.ac.sg:8000/~sf918168/mayajaal.html
"Puns maybe bad, but poetry is verse"
PariD
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>On 21 Apr 1996, Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
>
>>In article <Pine.GSO.3.93.960420...@eesun1.tamu.edu> Sanjay Joshi <jo...@ee.tamu.edu> writes:
>>>On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Ronny Singh wrote:
>>>
>>>>Who was the best?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>WHo else, but the great Kishore Kumar.
>>
>>I'll tell you who else - MOHD. RAFI!!!! (in my opinion, of course...here
>>we go again...)
>>.
>>s
>
>
>KISHORE KUMAR!!!!!!!
>
MOHD. RAFI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-)
/
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Sanjay Joshi
KIIIIIIISSSSHHHHHHHHHOOOOORRRRREEEEEEE KKKKUUUMMMMAAAARRRRRR
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Syed Rizwan
>>>>>>Who was the best?
>>>>>WHo else, but the great Kishore Kumar.
>>>>I'll tell you who else - MOHD. RAFI!!!! (in my opinion, of course...here
>>>KISHORE KUMAR!!!!!!!
>>MOHD. RAFI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>KIIIIIIISSSSHHHHHHHHHOOOOORRRRREEEEEEE KKKKUUUMMMMAAAARRRRRR
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See what I meant in my post? I should've known better than to even attempt
to put forth a well-reasoned-out post on this newsgroup, seeing how not
a single person has responded to it yet. Or is it because everyone already
KNOWS that I am right, and that RD Burman IS the greatest singer of all
time?
later
Rizwan
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>>>>In article <Pine.GSO.3.93.960420...@eesun1.tamu.edu> Sanjay Joshi <jo...@ee.tamu.edu> writes:
>>
>>MOHD. RAFI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>:-)
>>/
>
>
>KIIIIIIISSSSHHHHHHHHHOOOOORRRRREEEEEEE KKKKUUUMMMMAAAARRRRRR
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
>
>
MM MM O O H H D D R R A A F II **
M M M M O O HHHHHHHH D D R R AAAAAA FFFFFFF II **
M M M O O H H D D RR A A F II **
M M O O H H D D R R A A F II **
M M OOOOOOO H H DDDD * R R A A F II **
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ **
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Anand Kuppuswamy
: Who was the best?
Where's the doubt!!
RAFI'S THE BOSS!
btw where did Mukesh come into the picture! ;-)
Avinash Lagu
Of course Mohd. Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar. Both greatest ever.
I wish Rafi had sung a few Marathi songs!!
Avinash Lagu
Shyam Uttarwar
Rafi, infact, has sung several Marathi songs and I even have
cassette of his Marathi songs. The songs are composed by
Shrikant Thackeray ( Bal Thackeray's brother, I think..)
- Shyam Uttarwar
Pradeep Dubey
In article <DqHtr...@iquest.net>, Avinash Lagu <avi...@iquest.net> writes:
|> Of course Mohd. Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar. Both greatest ever.
|> I wish Rafi had sung a few Marathi songs!!
I don't know if Marathi requires a very different accent
from hindi, but Rafi who was of course perfect with his
hindi/urdu accent, was unbearable in his bengali songs.
He sang a few bengali songs and perhaps you would have to pay
money to people to resell those cassettes :-) :-)
Pradeep
(now let's talk about KK's hindi/bengali and hyderabadi accent:-))
|>
|> Avinash Lagu
|>
|>
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
In article <4lutj2$s...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com
(Pradeep Dubey) writes:
> I don't know if Marathi requires a very different accent from hindi,
> but Rafi who was of course perfect with his hindi/urdu accent, was
> unbearable in his bengali songs. He sang a few bengali songs and
> perhaps you would have to pay money to people to resell those
> cassettes :-) :-)
> Pradeep
> (now let's talk about KK's hindi/bengali and hyderabadi accent:-))
Kishore does have songs in Marathi --- I recall "Ashwini, ye
na" --- a duet with Anuradha from about five-six years back under the
baton of Arun Paudwal. His accent was flawless, IMO...
Ciao,
ND
\____Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu____/
Office: ISIP, MSU, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road, MS State MS 39762
Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2689
\_http://www.isip.msstate.edu/____Disc Space - The Final Frontier..._/
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4lutj2$s...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com writes:
>
>I don't know if Marathi requires a very different accent
>from hindi, but Rafi who was of course perfect with his
>hindi/urdu accent, was unbearable in his bengali songs.
>He sang a few bengali songs and perhaps you would have to pay
>money to people to resell those cassettes :-) :-)
Here I have heard the same thing about his Bengali accent. Earlier I
posted my opinion on his Marathi, that is, that it was OK...I don't
understand why he didn't do better - he was definitely an intelligent
singer.
But again, my argument for Rafi has not been in
Marathi/Bengali/Tamil/Malayalam/any others, but in Hindi/Urdu only!
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <DqHtr...@iquest.net> Avinash Lagu <avi...@iquest.net> writes:
>Of course Mohd. Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar. Both greatest ever.
>I wish Rafi had sung a few Marathi songs!!
>
HE HAS...they are just OK, at least the ones I've heard...they don't
sound all that Marathi...his voice is good in them, but he sounds like a
non-Marathi singing Marathi...Lata, for obvious reasons has no such
problems
Sanjeev
.
>
>
Ramesh Hariharan
In article <DqHtr...@iquest.net> Avinash Lagu <avi...@iquest.net> writes:
>I wish Rafi had sung a few Marathi songs!!
>
>Avinash Lagu
Well.. there's atleast one fully Marathi song I can think of ..
Aga bayi maike thoo zavoo nokos
Bag mala sodoon tho zavoo nokos..
And then there is the Shammi song..
Govinda ala re ala ...
--
Ramesh Hariharan
http://www.princeton.edu/~hariharn/
Chetan Vinchhi
In article <4lutj2$s...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>,
pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote:
>
>I don't know if Marathi requires a very different accent
>from hindi, but Rafi who was of course perfect with his
>hindi/urdu accent, was unbearable in his bengali songs.
>
Hi Pradeep,
Since you brought it up, Kishore's hindi/urdu pronunciation was
quite atrocious.
Oh yes. Now you have every right to call me a Rafian. But
I have not forfieted my right to refuse that status :)
Best regards,
Chetan.
Harish Suvarna
sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
>In article <4lutj2$s...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com writes:
>>
>>from hindi, but Rafi who was of course perfect with his
>>hindi/urdu accent, was unbearable in his bengali songs.
>>money to people to resell those cassettes :-) :-)
>
>Here I have heard the same thing about his Bengali accent. Earlier I
>posted my opinion on his Marathi, that is, that it was OK...I don't
>understand why he didn't do better - he was definitely an intelligent
>singer.
>
>But again, my argument for Rafi has not been in
>Marathi/Bengali/Tamil/Malayalam/any others, but in Hindi/Urdu only!
>
>Sanjeev
>
Rafi has sung in Telugu too. But his pronounciation was horrible to me and
most of the time he put his nose in the voice. But we are not considering
songs in other languages at all.
--
==================================================================
Harish Suvarna Work Phone: 415 933 4333
MIPS, Silicon Graphics Inc Home Phone: 408 383 0645
2011 N Shoreline Blvd Email: su...@mti.sgi.com
MS 10U-181, Mountain View
CA 94039-7311
==================================================================
Harish Suvarna
Kuntal M. Daftary
Ramesh Hariharan wrote:
> Well.. there's atleast one fully Marathi song I can think of ..
> Govinda ala re ala ...
there is hardly any marathi in his song except for the
"aala re"... and that much even i can speak w/o an accent.
Syed Rizwan
In <4m3d9k$j...@clarknet.clark.net> cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes:
>Hi Pradeep,
>Since you brought it up, Kishore's hindi/urdu pronunciation was
>quite atrocious.
Welp, I would like to second this STRONGLY. Please don't ask me for
substantiating proof, as it is bound to have someone complain to me
about wastage of bandwidth. :)
Rizwan
Ayub Mohammed P910
Harish Suvarna wrote:
>
> sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
> >In article <4lutj2$s...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com writes:
> >>
> >>I don't know if Marathi requires a very different accent
> >>from hindi, but Rafi who was of course perfect with his
> >>hindi/urdu accent, was unbearable in his bengali songs.
> >>He sang a few bengali songs and perhaps you would have to pay
> >>money to people to resell those cassettes :-) :-)
> >
> >Here I have heard the same thing about his Bengali accent. Earlier I
> >posted my opinion on his Marathi, that is, that it was OK...I don't
> >understand why he didn't do better - he was definitely an intelligent
> >singer.
> >
> >But again, my argument for Rafi has not been in
> >Marathi/Bengali/Tamil/Malayalam/any others, but in Hindi/Urdu only!
> >
> >Sanjeev
> >
>
> Rafi has sung in Telugu too. But his pronounciation was horrible to me and
> most of the time he put his nose in the voice. But we are not considering
> songs in other languages at all.
what about Kishore? Has he sung in any other language other than
Hindi/urdu
and Bangla?
Sanjay Joshi
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, Ayub Mohammed P910 wrote:
>Harish Suvarna wrote:
>
>what about Kishore? Has he sung in any other language other than
>Hindi/urdu
>and Bangla?
THe great one and only KK has sung a song in Kannada.
Sanjay
Kishor
Hi,
Syed Rizwan wrote:
>
> Welp, I would like to second this STRONGLY. Please don't ask me for
> substantiating proof, as it is bound to have someone complain to me
> about wastage of bandwidth. :)
>
> Rizwan
I think this is true of lot of singers, not only Kishore. I think
singers with Urdu background found this very natural.
bye,
Kishor.
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 41709> of Sanjay Joshi <jo...@ee.tamu.edu> writes:
>On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, Ayub Mohammed P910 wrote:
>
>>Harish Suvarna wrote:
>>
>>what about Kishore? Has he sung in any other language other than
>>Hindi/urdu
>>and Bangla?
>
>THe great one and only KK has sung a song in Kannada.
A ???
Now, that does not speak a lot for the "Great One" or is it "A" because
it is "Great ONE" ?? :-)))
-- Pintu Diwana
>Sanjay
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4m6231$j...@NNTP.MsState.Edu> riz...@sparco.com (Syed Rizwan) writes:
>In <4m3d9k$j...@clarknet.clark.net> cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes:
>>Hi Pradeep,
>>Since you brought it up, Kishore's hindi/urdu pronunciation was
>>quite atrocious.
>>Chetan.
>
> substantiating proof, as it is bound to have someone complain to me
> about wastage of bandwidth. :)
>
> Rizwan
>
Could someone PLEASE post a FEW examples of this? Though I'm not in the
KKKlan, I never really thought of his Urdu/Hindi as ATROCIOUS...
Wondering,
Sanjeev
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Pradeep Dubey (pra...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
: Pradeep
: (now let's talk about KK's hindi/bengali and hyderabadi accent:-))
Hmmmm.... at the risk of sounding like a closet Rafian, he did overpronounce
the letter Qaaf (as in Qayamat) for places which should have used kaaf or
"k" (as in Kitaab). Most notably I detected something like this in two
really good songs by KK (ManzileN apni jagah hai..... mispronounces kashti
as QashtiyaN at the beginning) and in Tere bina zindagi se shikwaa toh
naheeN. (do I hear a shiQwaa in there? ).
As for Kishor's assertion that any non-Urdu speaking person would find it
difficult, I have two names to suggest... Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhonsle.
Plus quite a few of the earlier singers too. I haven't come across Geeta
Dutt mispronouncing any words (But I have to listen to soo many more songs
of her!).
Later,
Ikram.
: |>
: |> Avinash Lagu
: |>
: |>
Sanjay Joshi
He didnt sing more as he had too many Hindi songs to sing in the absence
of other competent singers.
Kishor
Ikram Ahmed Khan wrote:
> As for Kishor's assertion that any non-Urdu speaking person would find it
> difficult, I have two names to suggest... Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhonsle.
> Plus quite a few of the earlier singers too. I haven't come across Geeta
> Dutt mispronouncing any words (But I have to listen to soo many more songs
> of her!).
I still think that Rafi's was the best. That itself is music to ears.
bye,
Kishor.
Chetan Vinchhi
In article <4m6f4t$m...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
sanj...@wright.Princeton.EDU (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
>
>Could someone PLEASE post a FEW examples of this? Though I'm not in the
>KKKlan, I never really thought of his Urdu/Hindi as ATROCIOUS...
>
>Wondering,
>Sanjeev
>
Hey, hey ! Are you a Klaner in Rafian guise or what :)
Since I started this KK-pronunciation thing, let me clarify.
I was not talking about this khaab-khwaab thing at all. Nor
was I referring to 'shiQwaa' (which sounds _much_ worse than
'khaab'). KK was quite bad even with _normal_ hindi words.
I am referring to the liberties he took with the long and
short versions of vowels. It seemed as if he made no
distinction between them (he would say 'pyaar *diiwanaa*...'
or '...hai *soohaanaa*' or 'tere mere *miilan* kii...'.
See what I mean ?)
I am sure there are other pinpointable aspects of his
pronunciation but I would have to think harder to come up
with examples.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
In article <4m9gti$1...@news.tamu.edu>, iak...@zeeman.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) wrote:
>
>As for Kishor's assertion that any non-Urdu speaking person would find it
>difficult, I have two names to suggest... Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhonsle.
>
Hi Ikram,
I am surprised that you mention Asha's name in the same breath as Lata's.
I think Lata is far superior to Asha when it comes to the finer aspects
of pronunciation. Haven't you heard 'dil chiiz kya hai...'
where the z is the Marathi z ?
C
Vinod Arekar
Chetan Vinchhi wrote:
[...]
> I am sure there are other pinpointable aspects of his
> pronunciation but I would have to think harder to come up
> with examples.
Ek main aur ek too
Dono mile is tara...
This one stands out especially in the light
of Asha's perfect "tarah"...
Vinod
U.V. Ravindra
>>>Hi Pradeep,
>>>Since you brought it up, Kishore's hindi/urdu pronunciation was
>>>quite atrocious.
>>>Chetan.
>> Welp, I would like to second this STRONGLY. Please don't ask me for
>> substantiating proof, as it is bound to have someone complain to me
>> about wastage of bandwidth. :)
>> Rizwan
>>
>Could someone PLEASE post a FEW examples of this? Though I'm not in the
>KKKlan, I never really thought of his Urdu/Hindi as ATROCIOUS...
>Wondering,
>Sanjeev
I agree. I don't think it was ATROCIOUS, either. It was quite bad, however.
I am at a loss to think of any examples of this, however ...
Following Alice (er .. Sanjeev) to the wonderland,
Ravindra.
U.V. Ravindra
iak...@zeeman.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) wrote:
>Hmmmm.... at the risk of sounding like a closet Rafian, he did overpronounce
>the letter Qaaf (as in Qayamat) for places which should have used kaaf or
>"k" (as in Kitaab). Most notably I detected something like this in two
>really good songs by KK (ManzileN apni jagah hai..... mispronounces kashti
>as QashtiyaN at the beginning) and in Tere bina zindagi se shikwaa toh
>naheeN. (do I hear a shiQwaa in there? ).
No, Ikram, I think you are over-reacting, over and over again. KK's
pronunciation was not *purrfect*, certainly, but it wasn't THAT bad, either.
Remember, he was not really bred in Bengal. He was in Khandwa, and that should
at least have lent him a *feel* for the language, if not a knowledge of it.
>As for Kishor's assertion that any non-Urdu speaking person would find it
>difficult, I have two names to suggest... Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhonsle.
>Plus quite a few of the earlier singers too. I haven't come across Geeta
>Dutt mispronouncing any words (But I have to listen to soo many more songs
>of her!).
Everyone on RMIM would have heard the story of Dilip Kumar scoffing at
Lata, saying "yeh daal-bhaat khaane waali laD.ki Urdu kya bolegi" or
something of that nature (somebody help), which stung her to the core and
prompted her to appoint an Urdu ustad to teach her not just correct, but
perfect pronunciation.
Geeta Dutt was not bad at all, but there again you find a tinge of
overgutturalization (to coin a word) of the 'qaaf'. Especially when
she says "be_qaraar dil is tarah mile, jis tarah kabhi ham judaa na the"
in "waqt ne kiya kya haseeN sitam" ...
:-))
>Later,
>Ikram.
>
bas kartaa hooN ... ab "qaafi" ho gaya!!!
:-)))
Regards,
Ravindra.
Harish Suvarna
Until these msgs came I did not know that it is shikwah but not shiQwaa.
So it was not a problem for me in Hindi songs. But in my mothertongue if some
one speaks without/with 'ottuulu' (stresses on letters) my ears immediately
catch that and it is a grave mistake. I think there is a dialogue related to
this in shankarabharanam on the word 'ardrata/ardhrata'. What I would like to
know from musical experts is that when there is a 'stress' on a syllable, is
there a practice/rule of it not falling on 'komal' swaras at all?
I really paid attention to Latag's pronounciation in
'o aasmaan vaale shikwah hai zindagi kaa' in anarkali. No Q in shikwa at all.
-harish
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4mdc1g$d...@clarknet.clark.net> cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes:
>In article <4m6f4t$m...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
> sanj...@wright.Princeton.EDU (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
>>
>>KKKlan, I never really thought of his Urdu/Hindi as ATROCIOUS...
>>
>>Wondering,
>>Sanjeev
>>
>
>
>Since I started this KK-pronunciation thing, let me clarify.
>
>I was not talking about this khaab-khwaab thing at all. Nor
>was I referring to 'shiQwaa' (which sounds _much_ worse than
>'khaab'). KK was quite bad even with _normal_ hindi words.
>I am referring to the liberties he took with the long and
>short versions of vowels. It seemed as if he made no
>distinction between them (he would say 'pyaar *diiwanaa*...'
>or '...hai *soohaanaa*' or 'tere mere *miilan* kii...'.
>See what I mean ?)
>
>pronunciation but I would have to think harder to come up
>with examples.
>
OK. Thanks Chetan. I guess I need to listen more closely to KK songs.
With Rafi, I know the songs very well, both the goods and the bads.
Sanjeev
>C
>C
KBARMAN
Kishore was, is and will remian the best.
Rajiv Shridhar
In <4mdc1g$d...@clarknet.clark.net>, cvin...@telogy.com wrote:
: I am referring to the liberties he took with the long and
: short versions of vowels. It seemed as if he made no
: distinction between them (he would say 'pyaar *diiwanaa*...'
: or '...hai *soohaanaa*' or 'tere mere *miilan* kii...'.
: See what I mean ?)
(At the risk of entering the argument between the two warring parties :-))
I always thought it _should_ be diivaanaa, with an elongated
'ee', not a short 'e'. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
Rajiv
:
: C
--
Rajiv Shridhar
ra...@hendrix.coe.neu.edu
Reporter (to Mahatma Gandhi): Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western
Civilization?
Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 41855> of cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes:
>In article <4m6f4t$m...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
> sanj...@wright.Princeton.EDU (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
>>
>>Could someone PLEASE post a FEW examples of this? Though I'm not in the
>>KKKlan, I never really thought of his Urdu/Hindi as ATROCIOUS...
>>
>
Hi Chetan,
Not that I am Klaner, but I really don't think I could put blame on KK
for his pronounciation, in the alleged songs that you mention :-))
There are many KK songs for Dev and Khanna that I like. (But of course
I am a Rafian, since I have only ONE cassette of KK exclusive, and > 15
cassette exclusive of Rafi) But even then, this blame on KK is a bit
too much :-))
>I was not talking about this khaab-khwaab thing at all. Nor
In the song: "khaab ho tum yaa koi ... " ??
Words pronounciations do change with certain factors: time,
dialect, poetry etc. I mean, in bol-chal, a word maybe
simplified. Though, he could have sung "khwaab", I won't be
surprised if the lyricist actually put "khaab", or the MD might
have suggested.
>was I referring to 'shiQwaa' (which sounds _much_ worse than
shiQwaa: in the song "tere binaa zindagee ... "
Please let me know what is wrong in his pronon.
>'khaab'). KK was quite bad even with _normal_ hindi words.
>I am referring to the liberties he took with the long and
>short versions of vowels. It seemed as if he made no
>distinction between them (he would say 'pyaar *diiwanaa*...'
>or '...hai *soohaanaa*' or 'tere mere *miilan* kii...'.
>See what I mean ?)
DeewaanaH : HAS the "baD.ee ee" kee maatraa
soohaanaa: zindagee ik safar hai soohaanaa
I believe this is not because of KK's bad pronounciation, but
the tune and placement of the word in the tune. The "su" is
kind of attached with "hai" of the previous word, e.g. zindagee
ik safar haisu haanaa"
and THAT makes it seem like "haisuuuhaanaa" = hai suuuhaanaa"
= "hai soohaanaa"
BTW, "ik" of ik cheeze maaNgate, or ik baar zaraa phir kahado
etc are all WRONG, since the word is "ek", right?? :-)))
meelan : same goes for this song, the place of the word in the
tune. Even in classical literary (Hindi) poetry, we find words
changed in the matraa (unless it leads to another legit word)
to fit the matraa. And even in many she'r in Urdu this is
found. Abhay, want to help me out here? :-)))
Here is an example from Ghalib's Deewan-E-Ghalib by Noor Abi
Abbas (There cud be mistakes on part of Abbas, but this is
found in MANY she'rs, so I don't think it is a mistake, but
knowingly put there):
hazaaroN KHvaahisheN aisee, ki har KHvaahish pa dam nikale
bahut nikale mire aramaan, lekin phir bhee kam nikale
Note the "pa" in first line (short for "pe" "par") and
"mire" in second line (= "mere").
I believe this is to maitain the "maatraa" in the meter.
So, this liberty is given and taken in poetry!!
The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
There!!
I said it! :-))))
-- Pintu Diwana
Disclaimer: This post in no way shud be interpreted as my intention,
desire, expressed or not to be a Klaner.
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 41855> of cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes:
>In article <4m6f4t$m...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
> sanj...@wright.Princeton.EDU (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
>>
>>Could someone PLEASE post a FEW examples of this? Though I'm not in the
>>KKKlan, I never really thought of his Urdu/Hindi as ATROCIOUS...
>>
>Since I started this KK-pronunciation thing, let me clarify.
>
Hi Chetan,
Not that I am Klaner, but I really don't think I could put blame on KK
for his pronounciation, in the alleged songs that you mention :-))
There are many KK songs for Dev and Khanna that I like. (But of course
I am a Rafian, since I have only ONE cassette of KK exclusive, and > 15
cassette exclusive of Rafi) But even then, this blame on KK is a bit
too much :-))
>I was not talking about this khaab-khwaab thing at all. Nor
In the song: "khaab ho tum yaa koi ... " ??
Words pronounciations do change with certain factors: time,
dialect, poetry etc. I mean, in bol-chal, a word maybe
simplified. Though, he could have sung "khwaab", I won't be
surprised if the lyricist actually put "khaab", or the MD might
have suggested.
>'khaab'). KK was quite bad even with _normal_ hindi words.
>I am referring to the liberties he took with the long and
>short versions of vowels. It seemed as if he made no
>distinction between them (he would say 'pyaar *diiwanaa*...'
>or '...hai *soohaanaa*' or 'tere mere *miilan* kii...'.
>See what I mean ?)
deewaanaH : HAS the "baD.ee ee" kee maatraa
BTW, it is written as deewaanaH (with a visarg) in urdu-Hindi
dictionary (in Devanagari lipi) whihc means it is said more
like "naH" rather than "naa". The dictionary is by Dr. Syed
Asad Ali. Anyway, it is "dee" and not "di".
soohaanaa: zindagee ik safar hai soohaanaa
I believe this is not because of KK's bad pronounciation, but
the tune and placement of the word in the tune. The "su" is
kind of attached with "hai" of the previous word, e.g. zindagee
ik safar haisu haanaa"
and THAT makes it seem like "haisuuuhaanaa" = hai suuuhaanaa"
= "hai soohaanaa"
BTW, "ik" of ik cheeze maaNgate, or ik baar zaraa phir kahado
etc are all WRONG, since the word is "ek", right?? :-)))
meelan : same goes for this song, the place of the word in the
tune. Even in classical literary (Hindi) poetry, we find words
changed in the matraa (unless it leads to another legit word)
to fit the matraa. And even in many she'r in Urdu this is
found. Abhay, want to help me out here? :-)))
Here is an example from Ghalib's Deewan-E-Ghalib by Noor Abi
Abbas (There cud be mistakes on part of Abbas, but this is
found in MANY she'rs, so I don't think it is a mistake, but
knowingly put there):
hazaaroN KHvaahisheN aisee, ki har KHvaahish pa dam nikale
bahut nikale mire aramaan, lekin phir bhee kam nikale
Note the "pa" in first line (short for "pe" "par") and
"mire" in second line (= "mere").
I believe this is to maitain the "maatraa" in the meter.
So, this liberty is given and taken in poetry!!
Another blatant example is the famous DD song, "mile sur meraa
tumhaaraa", and Pt Bhimsen Joshi, says it "to sooooor bane
hamaaraa". Do i really need to say more? He is classical baap
singer, who should at least know the pronouciation of the most
basic word "sur" to music, and he sings it that way!! That is
coz he is SINGING.
Arun Verma
In article <4mj23k$b...@gold.tc.umn.edu>,
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi <rava...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>In <article 41855> of cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes:
>>In article <4m6f4t$m...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
>> sanj...@wright.Princeton.EDU (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) wrote:
>>>
>>>Could someone PLEASE post a FEW examples of this? Though I'm not in the
>>>KKKlan, I never really thought of his Urdu/Hindi as ATROCIOUS...
>>>
>>Since I started this KK-pronunciation thing, let me clarify.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
If there is anything wrong with KK's pronunciation, it should
be when he sings "aavo, jaavo, " etc..which should be "aao, jao" .
Otherwise his pronunciation was perfect.
As for "khaab" :-), even rafi sings "toote hue khaabon ne..",
talat sings "raat ne kya kya khaab ..", mukesh sings "Zindagi khaab hai"
etc etc.., need I say more :-)
Sometimes "punjabi" flavor in Rafi's voice irritates me!
Did Hemant kumar sing any hindi songs?? All his "alleged" hindi
songs sound bengali to me!
Cheers
Arun
Sanjay Joshi
On 5 May 1996, Arun Verma wrote:
>
>If there is anything wrong with KK's pronunciation, it should
>be when he sings "aavo, jaavo, " etc..which should be "aao, jao" .
>Otherwise his pronunciation was perfect.
Yes. Although I am a hard core Klanner, I agree. KK used to pronounce aao
and jaao as aavo and jaavo.
>
>As for "khaab" :-), even rafi sings "toote hue khaabon ne..",
>talat sings "raat ne kya kya khaab ..", mukesh sings "Zindagi khaab hai"
>etc etc.., need I say more :-)
This pronounciation is made to fit in with the tune.
>
>Sometimes "punjabi" flavor in Rafi's voice irritates me!
>Did Hemant kumar sing any hindi songs?? All his "alleged" hindi
>songs sound bengali to me!
>
>
>Cheers
>Arun
>
>
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: >Hmmmm.... at the risk of sounding like a closet Rafian, he did overpronounce
: >the letter Qaaf (as in Qayamat) for places which should have used kaaf or
: No, Ikram, I think you are over-reacting, over and over again. KK's
: pronunciation was not *purrfect*, certainly, but it wasn't THAT bad, either.
Hey, I *like* KK. But, as Harish said, the pronounciation hurts.
And since somebody wanted to know how good/bad his pronunciation was.....
Btw, in looking at some of the suggestions that came up in the pronunciation
category.... there are quite a few songs in which there arelyrics which are
deliberately mispronounced. eg. Rafi in "nain laD... jaiiiN be" {RoJgaar!}
and Asha in say "yaaii re yaaii re jor lagaa ke nachchiii re~~~" {Sometimes
I feel that Asha was mimicking ARR's style of singing for that song. :) }
and so on....
Chetan said that Asha mispronounced on the chiiz bit for "dil chiiz kya
hai". Though I haven't heard the song recently, I would have to disagree
with Chetan. The 'z' (the Marathi one) may or may not there. But her
pronunciation of 'z' for chiiz was that of the z in 'zanjeer' which imHo is
correct.
: Geeta Dutt was not bad at all, but there again you find a tinge of
: overgutturalization (to coin a word) of the 'qaaf'. Especially when
: she says "be_qaraar dil is tarah mile, jis tarah kabhi ham judaa na the"
: in "waqt ne kiya kya haseeN sitam" ...
Would disagree violently with this! Overguttaralization!!!!!!!!????????
She sings a perfect 'Qaaf' on this song. mHo. Please explain on what you
meant over here in some detail. As an example, check out Beqaraar karke
hameN yooN na jaaii'e (Correct pro... again this time by HemantK) and tell
me in what way this is Geeta's overguttar..... ( GeetaFan is indignant here!! :)
:) }
Interestingly enuff, Pintuji's point of 'Jhootha' is very correct. For a
change, check out AshaB in "JhooThe naina boleN, saaNchi batiyaaN". She gets
the 'Th' bit right, doesn't she? And thus picking up on Kalyan's post,
Asha>Lata :) :)
Later,
Ikram.
Preetham Gopalaswamy
> pronunciation category.... there are quite a few songs in which there
> laD... jaiiiN be" {RoJgaar!} and Asha in say "yaaii re yaaii re jor
> lagaa ke nachchiii re~~~" {Sometimes I feel that Asha was mimicking
> ARR's style of singing for that song. :) } and so on....
>
> Chetan said that Asha mispronounced on the chiiz bit for "dil chiiz kya
> hai". Though I haven't heard the song recently, I would have to disagree
> with Chetan. The 'z' (the Marathi one) may or may not there. But her
> pronunciation of 'z' for chiiz was that of the z in 'zanjeer' which
> imHo is correct.
Asha goes through phases when her Hindi seems to sound very Marathiesque. But
that seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon. I cannot really think of any songs
off the top of my head from the 60s or 70s when Asha mispronounced words. That
is not to say that they do not exist. However, when it comes to "Umraao Jaan",
Asha's pronounciation is quite "shudhh". "Rangeela" on the other hand was one
of her worst. I have heard the "z" problem in quite a few of her songs, but
it is not consistent. Always makes me wonder what triggers it.
Lata's pronounciation is more consistently clear and well enunciated. But let
me re-iterate that Asha's Urdu (based on what little I can comment about Urdu)
is very good. One should go back to two sets of non-films that she released
one with Hariharan sometime in the mid 80s and the other is a set with music
by Jaidev. Chetan, you seem to imply that Asha's pronounciation is sort of
consistent, but that is just not true. The vast majority of her songs I think
are perfectly pronounced.
> Interestingly enuff, Pintuji's point of 'Jhootha' is very correct. For
> a change, check out AshaB in "JhooThe naina boleN, saaNchi batiyaaN".
> She gets the 'Th' bit right, doesn't she? And thus picking up on
> Kalyan's post, Asha>Lata :) :)
Interesting point about this song. There were 2 Gulzar songs penned not too
far apart in time, one is the above from "Lekin" and the other for the non-film
album "Dil PaDosi Hai". While the opening lines are similar, they actually are
subtlely different. As pointed out by Ikram, the song from "Lekin" is indeed
"JhooThe naina bole saaNchi batiyaN" (as in "lying eyes"). The song from "Dil
PaDosi Hai" on the other hand is "JooThe tere nain" ("jooTha" as in tarnished,
half-eaten, etc.). A typical Gulzarism. I am extremely fond of the second
phrase since it conveys a lot of meaning with a single word; and the concept of
"jooThe nain" is quite an amazing one (IMO). For obvious reasons, it is kind
of hard to distinguish the two from the songs.
P
Syed Rizwan
> Ek main aur ek too
> Dono mile is tara...
>
> This one stands out especially in the light
> of Asha's perfect "tarah"...
Since we're on the subject, that wasn't a problem unique to this ONE
particular song by Kishore, this problem existed in MANY songs by him.
Basicaly he would mess up any word with an 'h' sound towards the end.
namely:
Mera jeevan kora kaaghaz, kora hee ra.y gayaa...
jo likhaa thaa, aansoowo.n kay sung ba.y gayaa..
and all the other lines that follow, i.e. 'kuch naa ra.y gayaa', 'khaab
ra.y gayaa', etc...
Well anyway, I'm sure you guys get the picture, and before I get side-
tracked, lemme go ahead and finish this thing up. I don't wanna get
into this debate between the greatest of the mediocre singers, (Rafi vs.
Kishore, for the inept) but Rafi DEFINITELY had MUCH better pronunciation
than Kishore, but who the heck wants good pronunciation. When you listen
to a song, you want it to be a challenge, where you actualy have to
think about, and figure out the lyrics. And at that, nobody was better
than RD Burman. I mean stuff like, 'Dhanno ki aankho.n mei.n' and 'Kiss
nay dekha hay kul?', I had to listen to for a coupla months, before I
could understand most of the lyrics. :) Still don't understand all of
them.
Rizwan
P.S. Still no arguments against my well-reasoned article, so I guess
RD is the reigning champ, until a member of one of the militias
(KKKlaner or a Rafian) can dethrone him with substantial proof.
Syed Rizwan
>Kishore was, is and will remian the best.
Hot Damn,
Such STRONG reasoning, and well-thought out, and substantiated
arguments can not POSSIBLY by rebuked. I guess everyone's been wasting
time for the past month or so arguing, and counter-arguing upon who the
best singer of all time is. Which, btw, if someone still doesn't know..
is R.D. Burman.. :)
Rizwan
Syed Rizwan
In <4mj23k$b...@gold.tc.umn.edu> rava...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi) writes:
> deewaanaH : HAS the "baD.ee ee" kee maatraa
> BTW, it is written as deewaanaH (with a visarg) in urdu-Hindi
> dictionary (in Devanagari lipi) whihc means it is said more
> like "naH" rather than "naa". The dictionary is by Dr. Syed
> Asad Ali. Anyway, it is "dee" and not "di".
I hate to say this, but if the dictionary says that, the dictionary is
wrong. Cause the correct pronunciation SHOULD be 'deevaanah' with a
VERY slight 'h' sound at the end, barely audible.
> BTW, "ik" of ik cheeze maaNgate, or ik baar zaraa phir kahado
> etc are all WRONG, since the word is "ek", right?? :-)))
'ik' is an actualy word, that is used interchangably with 'ek', not
only in singing, but in writing as well.
> hazaaroN KHvaahisheN aisee, ki har KHvaahish pa dam nikale
> bahut nikale mire aramaan, lekin phir bhee kam nikale
> Note the "pa" in first line (short for "pe" "par") and
> "mire" in second line (= "mere").
Ok, sorry to nitpick, but it here's how it should be written:
HazaaroN KHaahisheN aisee, ke har KHaahish pe dum nikle
bohut nikle mire armaan, laykin phir bhee kum nikle..
The 'v' in 'Khaahish' is completely silent, not like 'khwaab' where the
'w' is optional, and it can be said either with or without. Now, please
elaborate on the 'pa' which you say is short for 'pe'? How does it
differ? Are you reading it in Urdu? Is it written with a 'pay-alif'?
instead of a 'pay-hay'? Because 'pay' (or 'pe') IS an actual word
which is used to replace 'par' every now and then. Same thing for 'mire'
an actual word that is used in writing, as well as shayari, just that
nobody uses it in their everyday language.
>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
Please elaborate on this? Are you talking about the word that means
'liar'? If so, it is SUPPOSED to be pronounced 'JhooTaa'. The 'T'
sound is like the one in 'ChaaT', not like the one in 'THayla' that
the 'ChaaT' is sold on.. *grin*
Rizwan
Syed Rizwan
In <4mj4qt$i...@noatun.cs.cornell.edu> ve...@cs.cornell.edu (Arun Verma) writes:
Hello,
I seem to be in a posting mood today.. :)
>If there is anything wrong with KK's pronunciation, it should
>be when he sings "aavo, jaavo, " etc..which should be "aao, jao" .
Heck, I hadn't even gotten into that, cause I figured that was the MOST
obvious discrepancy in Kishore's pronunciation, and he did it QUITE often.
>Otherwise his pronunciation was perfect.
Jeez, eventhough I think Rafi was head, and shoulders, and arms, and waist,
and legs, and feet, and even toes above Kishore in the pronuciation dept.,
I still wouldn't say that his pronunciation was PERFECT. I'm sure he's
made a mistake or two in pronouncing a word in some song, I just haven't
been able to catch it yet. *chuckle*
>As for "khaab" :-), even rafi sings "toote hue khaabon ne..",
>talat sings "raat ne kya kya khaab ..", mukesh sings "Zindagi khaab hai"
>etc etc.., need I say more :-)
Ok, EVERYONE gather around and pay attention, the 'w' in Khwaab IS
optional. You CAN pronounce the word either 'khwaab', or 'khaab' and
there would be nothing wrong with it. I THOUGHT you guys had the big
debate over this last year and everything had been straightened out?
I was new to this newsgroup back then, and used to skip most of the
articles, and figured since this was such a minor thing, someone else
would set it straight.
>Sometimes "punjabi" flavor in Rafi's voice irritates me!
Heh, now you're grasping at air. The ONLY time Rafi would have a
'punjabi' flavor in his singing would be when he was DOING a 'punjabi'
flavored song. i.e. 'Rabba mei.n kee karaa.n' line in the duet with
Lata 'sholay, sholay, sholay, meri javaanee..' or 'Jutta Aai wasaakhi'
from this movie with Amitabh and Shashi, can't remember the name of
the movie. I THINK it was picturized on Prem Nath, who was playing a
war-crippled Sikh. Hmm, mentioning this song stirred up my memory
banks and another song came to surface, don't even remember if it was
Rafi, or someone else, but the song went something like, "Gaddi aandi
'e chHalaanga maardi" Seem to remember Vinod Mehra in the song?
Can anyone put some Pstats on this thing please? Also, what was the name
of that Amitabh/Shashi movie I was talking about above? They were
both professional-witnesses, used to lie in court for a living.
Thanks
Rizwan
Pranav Kumar Tiwari
Arun> If there is anything wrong with KK's pronunciation, it should be
Arun> when he sings "aavo, jaavo, " etc..which should be "aao, jao" .
Arun> Otherwise his pronunciation was perfect.
Yes, his "aao, jao" were kind of shaky. But that is not the only place where
he messes up. Remember 'Raat kali ..' in which he says 'need' for
'neend'. He pronounces 'neend' properly in all other songs that I have
heard. Is there something special about 'Raat kali'?? Did Navin Nishchol
have a blocked nose in the situation for the song or what?
Arun> As for "khaab" :-), even rafi sings "toote hue khaabon ne..",
Arun> talat sings "raat ne kya kya khaab ..", mukesh sings "Zindagi
Arun> khaab hai" etc etc.., need I say more :-)
Klan wins again!
Someone pointed out, he says "khaab" in order to meet the meter, which, I
think is not true. Both "khaab" and "khwaab" have the same duration of
utterance (3).
Arun> Sometimes "punjabi" flavor in Rafi's voice irritates me! Did
Arun> Hemant kumar sing any hindi songs?? All his "alleged" hindi songs
Arun> sound bengali to me!
Really!! His voice does sound typically Bengali, but I don't think his
pronunciation was as bad as you allege!! One would particularly look for
"sh" and "s" sounds in Bengali accents, and I can't think of any songs
where HK messed up these two. Can you name some?
-pranav
--
Pranav K. Tiwari, 919-233-9643 (h), 919-515-6014(o)
2212, Gorman Street, Raleigh, NC 27606.
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~pktiwari/
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle
and quick to anger.
U.V. Ravindra
rava...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi) wrote:
> In the song: "khaab ho tum yaa koi ... " ??
> Words pronounciations do change with certain factors: time,
> dialect, poetry etc. I mean, in bol-chal, a word maybe
> simplified. Though, he could have sung "khwaab", I won't be
> surprised if the lyricist actually put "khaab", or the MD might
> have suggested.
I believe "KHaab" is very much an accepted pronunciation. Long ago I had
posted an article here in which I had pointed out that even a stickler
like Mehdi Hassan pronounces it as "KHaab" sometimes, as in his famous
GHazal "ab ke ham bichhD.e to shaayad kabhi *KHaaboN* meiN mileN" by his
manager-cum-shaa'ir Farhat Shahzad.
> soohaanaa: zindagee ik safar hai soohaanaa
> I believe this is not because of KK's bad pronounciation, but
> the tune and placement of the word in the tune. The "su" is
> kind of attached with "hai" of the previous word, e.g. zindagee
> ik safar haisu haanaa"
> and THAT makes it seem like "haisuuuhaanaa" = hai suuuhaanaa"
> = "hai soohaanaa"
You could be right here, Pintu, because though KK might not have been
as *purrfect* as Rafi Saheb or Lata/Asha, he couldn't have been bad
enough to have made such atrocious mistakes so deep into his career.
It would be nice if some songs he sang early on were pointed out as
examples of his faulty pronunciation.
> BTW, "ik" of ik cheeze maaNgate, or ik baar zaraa phir kahado
> etc are all WRONG, since the word is "ek", right?? :-)))
In the Urdu script, "ek" and "ik" are written alike, as are "Akram"
and "Ikram", and it is basically a dialectical difference between
"ek" and "ik". If you hail from Punjab, you say "ik", and if you
are from UP, you say "ek". These two words are different from
"Ek" (where the "e" is stressed and sounds like "aik") when they are
written, but they mean the same.
Similar differences exist for the words "tErI" and "tirI", and "mErE"
and 'mirE' ... they are written the same way in Devanagari, but they
not the same way in Urdu, and hence, are DIFFERENT words, meaning the
same.
> meelan : same goes for this song, the place of the word in the
> tune. Even in classical literary (Hindi) poetry, we find words
> changed in the matraa (unless it leads to another legit word)
> to fit the matraa. And even in many she'r in Urdu this is
> found. Abhay, want to help me out here? :-)))
> Here is an example from Ghalib's Deewan-E-Ghalib by Noor Abi
> Abbas (There cud be mistakes on part of Abbas, but this is
> found in MANY she'rs, so I don't think it is a mistake, but
> knowingly put there):
> hazaaroN KHvaahisheN aisee, ki har KHvaahish pa dam nikale
> bahut nikale mire aramaan, lekin phir bhee kam nikale
> Note the "pa" in first line (short for "pe" "par") and
> "mire" in second line (= "mere").
> I believe this is to maitain the "maatraa" in the meter.
> So, this liberty is given and taken in poetry!!
My earlier explanation should clear out this doubt of yours. Abbas hasn't
made a mistake, but unless you know which way it is written in Urdu, you
cannot be faulted for thinking he did. So, the moral of the story is,
Pintu, learn Urdu.
Anyway, coming back to the mispronunciation thing, certainly KK was better
than SDB ... he never said "yahaaN kaun hai teraa, *moosaa-feer*, jaayegaa
kahaaN? dam le le ghaD.i bhar, yeh *cheyaa* paayega kahaaN?"
:-)
>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
Indeed! And it is written this way in Urdu, quite often, too.
Not only jhooT, but also hoNT, THaaT, etc etc ... So, she's not wrong,
but we are, if we think she is ...
>There!!
>I said it! :-))))
>
>-- Pintu Diwana
>
Regards,
Ravindra.
The second best was not all that bad, yaar!
Harish Suvarna
Pronouncing 'deewaana' for 'diwana' types is very well justified to me.
Because sometimes to go according to the tune if the lyrisist can't help
MD will pull the word or compress the word pronounciation. But leaving the
stresses on letters is grave. For ex instead of 'Jhutha' saying 'Jhuta'
or instead of 'Dhan' (money) saying 'dan' (no stress on d) is awkward.
I observed LM in 'preeth be jhuta preetam jhuti' in mohe bhool gaye.
Should'nt that be 'Jhutha'? Did any one else observe?
--
Kishor
Hi,
Syed Rizwan wrote:
> Jeez, eventhough I think Rafi was head, and shoulders, and arms, and waist,
> and legs, and feet, and even toes above Kishore in the pronuciation dept.,
> I still wouldn't say that his pronunciation was PERFECT. I'm sure he's
> made a mistake or two in pronouncing a word in some song, I just haven't
> been able to catch it yet. *chuckle*
>
>
In one of his songs MdR pronounces 'intizar' as against 'intazar'. Which
one of these is correct?. And also is 'khwahish' or 'khaish' correct?.
Thanks in advance,
Kishor.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4ml7vr$p...@NNTP.MsState.Edu> riz...@sparco.com (Syed Rizwan) writes:
>In <4mj4qt$i...@noatun.cs.cornell.edu> ve...@cs.cornell.edu (Arun Verma) writes:
>
> 'punjabi' flavor in his singing would be when he was DOING a 'punjabi'
I disagree. Even though I think Rafi was the man, I think his singing
EARLY ON IN HIS CAREER had a definitely Punjabi element/flavor to it...
Listen to his songs with Husnlal-Bhagatram, especially "Suno-Suno Ae
DuniyaWalo Bapuki Yeh Amar Kahani" and "Mohabbat KE Dhoke MEn Koi Na
Aaye"...LOTS of his songs from this era sound a little that way,
including his songs with Naushad (e.g. "Tera Khilona Toota Balak").
I however, find that flavor in Rafi's voice ENDEARING. A Punjabi flavor
in Hindi singing, to me, sounds MUCH BETTER than a
Tamil/Telugu/Malayalam/Kannada/"Madrasi" flavor in it.
Also, I think that the Rafi of the forties and early fifties sounds very
DIFFERENT from the Rafi of the late fifties and sixties. I love both of
them! Then there is the third Rafi of the early to mid seventies
onwards, whom I don't enjoy as much.
Sanjeev
.
Sanjay Joshi
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Ramesh Hariharan
In article <31866C...@cs.purdue.edu> "Kuntal M. Daftary" <daft...@cs.purdue.edu> writes:
>Ramesh Hariharan wrote:
>
>> Well.. there's atleast one fully Marathi song I can think of ..
>
>> Govinda ala re ala ...
>
> there is hardly any marathi in his song except for the
> "aala re"... and that much even i can speak w/o an accent.
Kuntal,
You quote me wrongly .. the fully Marathi song I was refeing to was :
Aga bai maike thoo zavoo nokos
Bag mala sodoon thoo zavoo nokos
--
Ramesh Hariharan
http://www.princeton.edu/~hariharn/
Abhay Avachat
In article <4mj4qt$i...@noatun.cs.cornell.edu>,
Arun Verma <ve...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>As for "khaab" :-), even rafi sings "toote hue khaabon ne..",
>etc etc.., need I say more :-)
Yes , we should say something more ! :-) Because, it's not just "KHaab"
vs "KHwaab" issue. As far as I know, "KHaab" is not at all a proper
Urdu word. It's used just to fit to the tune/rhythm etc. It's also
simpler to pronounce. I have no idea if Hindi has taken this word from
Urdu and in the process modified it.
There are two "kha" sounds in Urdu. The pronunciation of this sound in
"KHaalid" and in "khaanaa" is quite different. The first one is a real
"throaty" sound. The "KHwaab" one is like "KHaalid".
Now was KK's pronunciation right ? :-)
(BTW, KKKlaners, please please please please don't start that "Rafi
sang 'najar' in place of 'nazar'" arguement. :-) :-) )
But let me confess something. I used this artra once, just as a war
tactic. It's quite difficult to produce these sounds, if you haven't
learnt Urdu in your childhood. One has to be a native speaker of any
language to speak it flawlessly. Not always, but almost always. My own
Urdu pronunciation is terrible. But then, I am not any singer :-)
The pronunciation is nevertheless very important and subtle differences
can create havoc. The best example of this is "Jaleel" and "Zaleel".
If you write in Hindi script, it's just a 'nukta' that is more. The
meanings are totally opposite !
So it's not that trivial a point to be totally ignored. And Rafi
was superb and flawless, while KK got it wrong many times.
So why not ? Afterall, everything is fair in love and war, and these
annual wars are really 'love and war' (not just 'war'). So no probs in
using this to attack Klan and humble them. :-) :-)
- Abhay.
Phir wohi, __baat__ hai, baat hai __khaab__ ki :-)
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4mlfi5$1s...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com> "U.V. Ravindra" <uvr> writes:
>I believe "KHaab" is very much an accepted pronunciation. Long ago I had
>posted an article here in which I had pointed out that even a stickler
>like Mehdi Hassan pronounces it as "KHaab" sometimes, as in his famous
>GHazal "ab ke ham bichhD.e to shaayad kabhi *KHaaboN* meiN mileN" by his
>manager-cum-shaa'ir Farhat Shahzad.
Is this one really by Farhat Shahzad? I thought he joined up Mehdi Hasan
later in his career, that is, I though MH was singing this one before he
met FS.
>You could be right here, Pintu, because though KK might not have been
>as *purrfect* as Rafi Saheb or Lata/Asha, he couldn't have been bad
>enough to have made such atrocious mistakes so deep into his career.
>It would be nice if some songs he sang early on were pointed out as
>examples of his faulty pronunciation.
As a Rafi-an, I personally think this KK-mispronunciation thing is
getting blown out of proportion. After all, Rafi had his "special"
pronunciation peculiarities which may not be right from a purist
standpoints, but I enjoy them none the less. Hell, I mean, where does
Remo Fernandes get off with that Hindi pron., I'm talking about "Ek Ho
Gaye Hum Aur Tum" from BOMBAY. But again, it doesn't really BOTHER me.
>Similar differences exist for the words "tErI" and "tirI", and "mErE"
>and 'mirE' ... they are written the same way in Devanagari, but they
>not the same way in Urdu, and hence, are DIFFERENT words, meaning the
>same.
????!!!???
Ravindra, can you elaborate on the difference between these? When is
each one used?
>
>
>>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
>>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
>
>Indeed! And it is written this way in Urdu, quite often, too.
>Not only jhooT, but also hoNT, THaaT, etc etc ... So, she's not wrong,
>but we are, if we think she is ...
>
But in HINDI script, I'm pretty sure its written as jhooTha. And Lata
does say it like this, in "Manamohana Bade JhooThe"...
Pronunciation is surely important, but are any of the main defendants
named really that GUILTY? I'm not talking about South Indian inflection,
I'm talking about pronunciation ONLY...Come on, guys.
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <318E6E...@bnr.ca> Kishor <des...@bnr.ca> writes:
>Hi,
>
>In one of his songs MdR pronounces 'intizar' as against 'intazar'. Which
>one of these is correct?. And also is 'khwahish' or 'khaish' correct?.
Isn't it "in-TE-zar"? I thought that's how it's written in Devanagri.
Also, Rafi said:
Khuli Palak Men "Jhoota" Gussa, Band Palak Men Pyaar...
In "Bapuki Amar Kahani",
the line "...Aur Videshi Maal Ki Holi Gandhi Ne Jalvaayee..."
has Rafi saying the word as "Vadeshi".
Also, Rafi consistently (as did some others, I think) said "Dhoka",
where I have seen "dhokha" written in DevaNagri.
Comments?
Sanjeev
Kuntal Shah
>>>>> "Ayub" == Ayub Mohammed P910 <moha...@bnr.ca> writes:
Ayub> what about Kishore? Has he sung in any other language other
Ayub> than Hindi/urdu and Bangla?
Kishore, Rafi and Mukesh each have sung atleast one song in Gujarati too.
--
Kuntal.
______________________________________________________________________
| Tere jahaN maiN aisa nahiN ke pyar na ho
| jahaN ummeed ho is ki wahaN nahiN milta
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 41939> of iak...@weber.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) writes:
Bhai, I need some clarifications, someone help me out here. Maybe I
joined a little late in the conversation or missed some posts, but here
are my questions:
>Btw, in looking at some of the suggestions that came up in the pronunciation
>category.... there are quite a few songs in which there arelyrics which are
>deliberately mispronounced. eg. Rafi in "nain laD... jaiiiN be" {RoJgaar!}
>and Asha in say "yaaii re yaaii re jor lagaa ke nachchiii re~~~" {Sometimes
>I feel that Asha was mimicking ARR's style of singing for that song. :) }
>and so on....
What is the {RoJgaar!} deal in nain laD. jai haiN" and Asha's
"yaai re". I know this must be a beaten-to-death question, but
I don't see where the lyrics are deleberately mispronounced.
(of course I am not hearing the song, as I type, so might need
a memory jog).
>Chetan said that Asha mispronounced on the chiiz bit for "dil chiiz kya
>hai". Though I haven't heard the song recently, I would have to disagree
>with Chetan. The 'z' (the Marathi one) may or may not there. But her
>pronunciation of 'z' for chiiz was that of the z in 'zanjeer' which imHo is
>correct.
Now, is the Marathi 'z' different from Urdu 'z' ?
Anyway, "cheez" is Urdu, and I think Asha does say it as 'z'
and not as 'j'.
-- Pintu Diwana
Syed Rizwan
>In one of his songs MdR pronounces 'intizar' as against 'intazar'. Which
>one of these is correct?. And also is 'khwahish' or 'khaish' correct?.
>Thanks in advance,
Hello,
For your first query, the correct pronounciation of the word is
'intizar', but you have to be careful not to make it, 'inteezar', its
just a slight 'i' sound between 't' and 'z'. The second one, is
pronounced 'khaahish'. The 'w' is completely silent, btw I checked up on
something I said about 'khwaab' and 'khaab' yesterday and I was wrong.
Although it is pronounced BOTH ways nowadays, the only grammaticaly
correct pronunciation is 'khaab'.
Later,
Rizwan
Syed Rizwan
>Isn't it "in-TE-zar"? I thought that's how it's written in Devanagri.
>Also, Rafi consistently (as did some others, I think) said "Dhoka",
>where I have seen "dhokha" written in DevaNagri.
Hello Sanjeev,
I'm starting to seriously wonder what this 'devanagri' is
now, since it seems to have so many mistakes. :) I truly am clueless
on this thing, is it a language from South India? Is it the written
Hindi? Anyway... Both of the examples above are wrong, I've already
posted about the first one, please refer to that post, the second one,
Devanagri is wrong, and RD Burman was right, when he said...
"Duniya mei.n, Logo.n ko, DHOKA kabhee ho jaata hay... HHHHHAAAAA!!!!"
Heck, if you have any questions about the correct pronunciation of a
word, just try to find it in an RD Burman song, I'm fairly certain
you'll get the correct pronunciation. *grin*
Rizwan
P.S. For the humor-impared, that last line was a joke.. :)
U.V. Ravindra
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
>
> In article <4mlfi5$1s...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>
> "U.V. Ravindra" <uvr> writes:
> >I believe "KHaab" is very much an accepted pronunciation. Long ago I had
> >posted an article here in which I had pointed out that even a stickler
> >like Mehdi Hassan pronounces it as "KHaab" sometimes, as in his famous
> >GHazal "ab ke ham bichhD.e to shaayad kabhi *KHaaboN* meiN mileN" by his
> >manager-cum-shaa'ir Farhat Shahzad.
>
> Is this one really by Farhat Shahzad? I thought he joined up Mehdi Hasan
> later in his career, that is, I though MH was singing this one before he
> met FS.
Well, I thought it was by FS. I'll check up and let you know.
> As a Rafi-an, I personally think this KK-mispronunciation thing is
> getting blown out of proportion. After all, Rafi had his "special"
> pronunciation peculiarities which may not be right from a purist
> standpoints, but I enjoy them none the less. Hell, I mean, where does
> Remo Fernandes get off with that Hindi pron., I'm talking about "Ek Ho
> Gaye Hum Aur Tum" from BOMBAY. But again, it doesn't really BOTHER me.
I agree. By the same token, actually, I don't consider Asha's
"jor lagaa(k)ke na(ch)che re!" a mispronunciation at all.
It is another matter that I detest the song from my guts. ;-)
> >Similar differences exist for the words "tErI" and "tirI", and "mErE"
> >and 'mirE' ... they are written the same way in Devanagari, but they
> >not the same way in Urdu, and hence, are DIFFERENT words, meaning the
> >same.
>
> ????!!!???
>
> Ravindra, can you elaborate on the difference between these? When is
> each one used?
This requires an elaborate answer, about the Urdu language and its
limitless beauty and stuff like that. That mayn't be appropriate
at this time, or here, or even in this newsgroup. Let's talk
about it separately, Sanjeev. Send me a mail or something.
I'll be brief here.
'tErA' and 'tirA' are two different spellings for the same word,
which means "your". Similarly, 'mErA' and 'mirA' are different
spellings for the same word, which means "mine". Owing to the
difference in the spellings, there is one school of thought which
says that these words are different. Another school (to which
*I* belong ;-)) says that the words are not actually 'tirA' or
'mirA' but 'terA' and 'merA'. 'tErA' has an elongated 'E' sound,
as in 'mErA', while 'terA' and 'merA' have shortened 'e' sounds.
The hijja' (spelling) of 'tErA/mErA' is "te/miim ye re alif",
whereas that of 'terA/merA' is "te/miim re alif".
(I'm getting a feeling I've done this before, and I'm sure
it isn't simply deja vu).
I'll just say here that Urdu poetry has a very strict catalectic
structure and is very sensitive to syllablic imbalances. That's
the reason for the existence of two different spellings for the same
(or different, depending on which schoold you belong to) word...
depending on the syllablic lenght available for the word, poets
either use 'terA/merA' or 'tErA/mErA' ... one example, that I
think of is the song
tEri aaNkhON ke siwA duniya meiN rakkhA kyA hAI
Both forms of the word "mine" appear in the following line:
mEra jInA mira marnA inhiN palkON ke talE
This is necessitated because of the nature of syllablic
distribution in the line.
> >
> >>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
> >>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
> >
> >Indeed! And it is written this way in Urdu, quite often, too.
> >Not only jhooT, but also hoNT, THaaT, etc etc ... So, she's not wrong,
> >but we are, if we think she is ...
> >
>
> But in HINDI script, I'm pretty sure its written as jhooTha. And Lata
> does say it like this, in "Manamohana Bade JhooThe"...
You are right, she does. But then, again, check if she does the
same in any Urdu song! I am pretty sure she doesn't, and
that's what makes her pronunciation perfect!
> Pronunciation is surely important, but are any of the main defendants
> named really that GUILTY? I'm not talking about South Indian inflection,
> I'm talking about pronunciation ONLY...Come on, guys.
>
> Sanjeev
So am I. Only, I am talking about Urdu and Hindi as different
languages, and of the fact that the same words occasionally
might have different spellings in the two languages.
I'll be glad to go into more details, provided the newsgroup
agrees ... ;-) language and pronunciation isn't really
*music*, neither is it *recreation*... :-) :-)
Regards,
Ravindra.
--
mirA nahiN hai magar phir bhi mirA lagtA hAI
har Ek lafz mujhE us ka, duA lagtA hAI
wahI hai mEra masIhA, wahI mirA qAtil
zahar bhi gar woh mujhE dE to dawA lagtA hAI
-- UVR
(pretty run-o'-the-mill, I agree, but
it does throw some light on the issue at hand.)
U.V. Ravindra
> >one of these is correct?. And also is 'khwahish' or 'khaish' correct?.
>
It is "intezaar" or "intizaar" or "intazaar" ... ANY and ALL of these
are correct. None of these is a mispronunciation.
> Also, Rafi said:
>
> Khuli Palak Men "Jhoota" Gussa, Band Palak Men Pyaar...
Refer to my earlier post on "jhooT(H)", "THaaT", etc ...
The words are spelt this way in the Urdu script.
> In "Bapuki Amar Kahani",
> the line "...Aur Videshi Maal Ki Holi Gandhi Ne Jalvaayee..."
> has Rafi saying the word as "Vadeshi".
Okay, this is nothing but a Punjabi pronunciation of "videshi".
> Also, Rafi consistently (as did some others, I think) said "Dhoka",
> where I have seen "dhokha" written in DevaNagri.
> Comments?
What you have read is the spelling of the HINDI word "dhokhaa".
The same word (with the same meaning) exists in Urdu, and it
is spelt "dhokaa". The same is the case with "bhook(h)", too.
>
> Sanjeev
There are several such words, Sanjeev. It would be nice if
someone knowledgeable in Urdu (Sami/Irfan, are you listening?)
would post a list of such words that do NOT have an aspirated
consonant at the end, as opposed to the Hindi spelling of the
same word.
Otherwise, I will use my dictionary, and that will take time :-(
Regards,
Ravindra.
Chetan Vinchhi
Hi Preetham,
I _knew_ I could impel you into action by saying this about
Asha's pronunciation :)
>
>However, when it comes to "Umraao Jaan", Asha's pronounciation is quite "shudhh".
>I have heard the "z" problem in quite a few of her songs, but
>it is not consistent. Always makes me wonder what triggers it.
I still think there is a 'z' problem (nicely put, Preetham) with the Umrao Jaan
song. It is very clear the first two times she says it - without the rhythmic
accompaniment. I will hear it again and I am prepared to take my words back
if I am convinced. The last time we got into this kind of argument,
(about '*ThaDe* rahiyo...' - at Ketan's place) I was right :)
>But let me re-iterate that Asha's Urdu (based on what little I can comment
>about Urdu) is very good.
> <snip>
>Chetan, you seem to imply that Asha's pronounciation is sort of
>consistent, but that is just not true. The vast majority of her songs I think
>are perfectly pronounced.
If you don't draw a line between adequate and perfect. Now, I am not a native
speaker of Urdu so I cannot say it with authority but it seems as if Lata's
pronunciation is close to 'perfect' while Asha's remains merely 'correct'.
C
Chetan Vinchhi
In article <4mlfi5$1s...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>, "U.V. Ravindra" <uvr> wrote:
>
>You could be right here, Pintu, because though KK might not have been
>as *purrfect* as Rafi Saheb or Lata/Asha, he couldn't have been bad
>enough to have made such atrocious mistakes so deep into his career.
>It would be nice if some songs he sang early on were pointed out as
>examples of his faulty pronunciation.
>
Hi Ravindra,
How deep he was into his career has nothing to do with his pronunciation,
really. But I will try to think of his earlier songs which can serve as
examples.
C
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 41973> of "U.V. Ravindra" <uvr> writes:
>rava...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi) wrote:
>
>> BTW, "ik" of ik cheeze maaNgate, or ik baar zaraa phir kahado
>> etc are all WRONG, since the word is "ek", right?? :-)))
>
>In the Urdu script, "ek" and "ik" are written alike, as are "Akram"
>and "Ikram", and it is basically a dialectical difference between
>"ek" and "ik". If you hail from Punjab, you say "ik", and if you
>are from UP, you say "ek". These two words are different from
>"Ek" (where the "e" is stressed and sounds like "aik") when they are
>written, but they mean the same.
UVR, I already replied to Syed Rizwan's post just now, so I
won't repeat. His post was also in reply to same post as yours.
My point in the whole post was that words do take a slightly
different form in spoken usage, and they are acceptable. The
"ik", "ek" example was given as an example of an accepted pair,
so "khaab" and "khwaab" should also be left alone from the
dragging :-))) But as to your point, "ek" originates in
Sanskrit, so that is the "original" pronounciation. Even in
written Hindi it is "ek". It is "ik" ONLY in spoken Hindi. I am
not aware that in urdu script "ek" and "ik" would be written
the same way or not, but even if they are THAT would not be a
justification for the mixed up pronounciation. The
justification to the mixed pronounciation is that SPOKEN forms
DO change.
>Similar differences exist for the words "tErI" and "tirI", and "mErE"
>and 'mirE' ... they are written the same way in Devanagari, but they
>not the same way in Urdu, and hence, are DIFFERENT words, meaning the
>same.
Whether these differences occur because they are written the
SAME way in Urdu script, I don't know, but even without knowing
that, I would say these variations would highly be possible,
existing and accepted. There are so many words which take
slightly different forms, like "yamunaa", "jamunaa". I won't go
in those details again, I think we had a full course fo that in
Mar-Apr 95 :-))))
>> meelan : same goes for this song, the place of the word in the
>> tune. Even in classical literary (Hindi) poetry, we find words
>> changed in the matraa (unless it leads to another legit word)
>> to fit the matraa. And even in many she'r in Urdu this is
>> found. Abhay, want to help me out here? :-)))
>> Here is an example from Ghalib's Deewan-E-Ghalib by Noor Abi
>> Abbas (There cud be mistakes on part of Abbas, but this is
>> found in MANY she'rs, so I don't think it is a mistake, but
>> knowingly put there):
>> hazaaroN KHvaahisheN aisee, ki har KHvaahish pa dam nikale
>> bahut nikale mire aramaan, lekin phir bhee kam nikale
>> Note the "pa" in first line (short for "pe" "par") and
>> "mire" in second line (= "mere").
>> I believe this is to maitain the "maatraa" in the meter.
>> So, this liberty is given and taken in poetry!!
>
>My earlier explanation should clear out this doubt of yours. Abbas hasn't
>made a mistake, but unless you know which way it is written in Urdu, you
>cannot be faulted for thinking he did. So, the moral of the story is,
>Pintu, learn Urdu.
UVR, you didn't get my point at all, did you :-)))))
My point was that even in Urdu (GHalib's she'rs) and in Hindi
(Bhimsen's singing) we see a different form of word (mere ->
mire, sur-> soor) and we need not jump to conclusion that these
are bad pronounciations. *SO*, the same logic goes for THOSE
words that were cited as KK's bad pronounciation.
I said, "Abbas *MIGHT* have faulted, even though I DON'T think
so". Read it again, UVR, I have this line:
---begin quote---
>> Abbas (There cud be mistakes on part of Abbas, but this is
>> found in MANY she'rs, so I don't think it is a mistake, but
>> knowingly put there):
---end quote---
So ... :-)))
>Anyway, coming back to the mispronunciation thing, certainly KK was better
>than SDB ... he never said "yahaaN kaun hai teraa, *moosaa-feer*, jaayegaa
>kahaaN? dam le le ghaD.i bhar, yeh *cheyaa* paayega kahaaN?"
boy! UVR, wait till you listen any classical pieces or Thumris,
you will end up classifying half the things as
mispronounciations, e.g. Parveen Sultana's "toooom raadhe bano~~~
shyaam".
>>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
>>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
>
>Indeed! And it is written this way in Urdu, quite often, too.
>Not only jhooT, but also hoNT, THaaT, etc etc ... So, she's not wrong,
>but we are, if we think she is ...
The limitation of a script is NOT license to change the
pronounciation. So, THIS logic of yours is not acceptable. BUT,
I agree with time, spoken forms change, and so does written
form. Written form takes a longer time to change.
In Hindi, the word STILL is "jhooThaa", check it in
dictionaries, in Premchand stories, Jayshankar Prasad's novels
or Maithili's poems.
Anyway, I am already getting tired of this circular thread of who is
best. All I was trying to do was to say that those few words cited as
KK's bad pronounciaiton were not strong enough evidence.
-- Pintu Diwana
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 41986> of riz...@sparco.com (Syed Rizwan) writes:
>In <4mj23k$b...@gold.tc.umn.edu> rava...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi) writes:
>
>> deewaanaH : HAS the "baD.ee ee" kee maatraa
>> BTW, it is written as deewaanaH (with a visarg) in urdu-Hindi
>> dictionary (in Devanagari lipi) whihc means it is said more
>> like "naH" rather than "naa". The dictionary is by Dr. Syed
>> Asad Ali. Anyway, it is "dee" and not "di".
>
> I hate to say this, but if the dictionary says that, the dictionary is
> wrong. Cause the correct pronunciation SHOULD be 'deevaanah' with a
> VERY slight 'h' sound at the end, barely audible.
Syed,
You don't have to hate to say this, :-)) coz, what you are saying is
EXACTLY what I already said.
In devanagari script, the visarg, denoted by a colon is
pronounced as an aspirant "ah", and we denote it with an upper
case "H" while transliterating. So it is deewaanaH, and we BOTH
seem to agree on this, so the dictionary is also right, which I
should hope, written by Dr. Syed Asas Ali, who is an Urdu
scholar of some worth :-))
>> BTW, "ik" of ik cheeze maaNgate, or ik baar zaraa phir kahado
>> etc are all WRONG, since the word is "ek", right?? :-)))
>
> 'ik' is an actualy word, that is used interchangably with 'ek', not
> only in singing, but in writing as well.
You missed my point, just as Ravindra missed. It is called
sarcasm (hinted by the trailing "right" and the smiklies)
I was saying it sarcastically to those who were
fighting over "KHaab" and "KHwaab". If the "ik" and "ek" pair
is acceptable, then why not "KHaab" and "KHwaab" ? At least
in spoken language these changes happen in course of time.
The other day I had a discussion with my dad on this, in Delhi
(when I was in India for 3 months Jan-Mar) and we both get
pissed off by misspelt signboards. And he said, this is not
new, it must have been happening since the very early days.
That is how the elite Sanskrit led to dialect apabhransh. The
scholars always try to keep the language pure, and the mass
will always use it in its own way. So, as far it is spoken
language, it is bound to have variations and one can never say
which is 100% "correct". e.g. which Hindi is 100% Hindi - the
one spoken in MP, Haryana, UP, Rajasthan or Bihar? All and
none!
My point with "ik" and "ek" is that the actual word is "ek"
from Sanskrit, in writing it will remain the correct form, like
"anguli" and NOT "ungalee" (for finger). BUT, with a prolonged
usage in spoken form, the "ik" and "ungalee" are aceeptable
forms.
>> hazaaroN KHvaahisheN aisee, ki har KHvaahish pa dam nikale
>> bahut nikale mire aramaan, lekin phir bhee kam nikale
>> Note the "pa" in first line (short for "pe" "par") and
>> "mire" in second line (= "mere").
>
> Ok, sorry to nitpick, but it here's how it should be written:
>
> HazaaroN KHaahisheN aisee, ke har KHaahish pe dum nikle
> bohut nikle mire armaan, laykin phir bhee kum nikle..
>
> The 'v' in 'Khaahish' is completely silent, not like 'khwaab' where the
> 'w' is optional, and it can be said either with or without. Now, please
Syed, I don't know what to say.
If you said, this was similar to "KHaab" "KHwaab", I would have
agreed. but to say "KHwaahish" is WRONG, I disagree.
I have heard, read the word as "KHwaahish", and both my hindi
AND Urdu dictionaries say it is "KHwaahish" with a "w" and not
"without a "w". So again, the form without a "w" is more of the
spoken form gaining acceptance.
> elaborate on the 'pa' which you say is short for 'pe'? How does it
> differ? Are you reading it in Urdu? Is it written with a 'pay-alif'?
> instead of a 'pay-hay'? Because 'pay' (or 'pe') IS an actual word
> which is used to replace 'par' every now and then. Same thing for 'mire'
> an actual word that is used in writing, as well as shayari, just that
> nobody uses it in their everyday language.
Agreed I am not reading Urdu script here, but that is not the
problem. I guess, this point has again been mis intepreted by
both you and Ravindra.
This point was made to say that words do take a "slightly"
different form in spoken, and many times the lyricist or MD
might have asked KK to sing it that way.
The "pa" in the GHalib sher, is shortened form of "par" or "pe"
(both of which have 2 matraas). Once again, "pa" is not an
actual word, but more of a spoken form. A good example in
English would be "Sun'n'Sand" where 'n' is used for "and". Now
you won't say "'n'" is a word, would you :-)))
Anyway, this is NOT a point we are differeing on, so lets
concentrate on what the issue is :-)))
>>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
>>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
>
> Please elaborate on this? Are you talking about the word that means
> 'liar'? If so, it is SUPPOSED to be pronounced 'JhooTaa'. The 'T'
> sound is like the one in 'ChaaT', not like the one in 'THayla' that
> the 'ChaaT' is sold on.. *grin*
Once again, my dictionary says it is "jhooThaa" and so have all
my Hindi textbooks, the Hindi poets and writers like Premchand,
Dinakar, Gupta, Prasad etc.
Ravindra said in Urdu script "Tha" and "Ta" are written the
same way. But that is no excuse for pronouncing a word wrong
and claim that to be the correct way! it would something like
in English, writing Gautam Buddha as "buddha" and pronouncing
it as "booDaa". That does not mean "booDaa" is the right
pronounciation :-)))
Anyway, the point is far stretched. Lets get back to KK.
All I tried to do was give some examples to say that the few
words given as KK's bad pronounciation were not enough to prove
the point.
That still doesn't mean I am Klaner :-))))
-- Pintu Diwana
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <Pine.GSO.3.93.96050...@eesun1.tamu.edu> Sanjay Joshi <jo...@ee.tamu.edu> writes:
>Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST.
>Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST.
>
(...more insanity deleted...:-))
Somebody has WAAYYYYYYYY too much time on their hands, huh? :-)
BTW, (Mohd. Rafi ROCKS my world)^100000000000000000000000
Sanjeev
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <318FBC...@vnet.ibm.com>, "U.V. Ravindra" <u...@vnet.ibm.com> writes:
>There are several such words, Sanjeev. It would be nice if
>someone knowledgeable in Urdu (Sami/Irfan, are you listening?)
Don't ask me 'cause I wudn't know myself :-( All I can do is make the subject
header more relevant, which I've done :-) I think Irfan (who has been absconding
for a while now :-) ) is the best person to answer this... my knowledge of
Urdu is rather poor :-( I'm not too proud of my pronunciation either... u might
find me directing Geeta Dutt to sing "Waqat ne kiya kya hasin sitam..." :-)
However, I can detect mispronunciation (is this a word ?) of the KH and GH
(as in KHuda and GHam)... I feel KK is pretty decent in this dept. I have to
check Ikram's claim reg. "shiQwa"... haven't heard that song for ages now...
but I'm sure it's not flagrant, else I wud've remembered it... in fact I wud
have put it in my .sig during the "war" :-)
Among the new singers (in Hindi films), surprisingly SPB, despite his accent
seems to be the best when it comes to KH and GH. In the recent Bhupendra/Mitali
concert, I found Mitali slipping on KH on a couple of occasions. It really
takes away the beauty of a song.... There's one Amit Kumar song which is like
pricking one with needles... "Bekarar, bekarar, bekarar kiya..." The word is
repeated thrice, and he does progressively gets worse each time.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... wondering where Irfan has disappeared.
>Ravindra.
Snehal B. Oza
In <4mo983$1...@clarknet.clark.net> cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes:
>Hi Preetham,
>If you don't draw a line between adequate and perfect. Now, I am not a native
>speaker of Urdu so I cannot say it with authority but it seems as if Lata's
>pronunciation is close to 'perfect' while Asha's remains merely 'correct'.
I have always believed otherwise. In fact Lata's urdu sounds miserable. That's
the reason her ghazal gaayaki is (IMO) not as good as Asha's. Listen to Asha's
'Shauk Har Rang Raqibe' and Lata's any! (Or for that matter even Asha's any!)
>C
Snehal B. Oza
In <4mmkbf$e...@delss02.mch.sni.de> ab...@delss02.mch.sni.de (Abhay Avachat) writes:
>In article <4mj4qt$i...@noatun.cs.cornell.edu>,
>Arun Verma <ve...@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>
>>As for "khaab" :-), even rafi sings "toote hue khaabon ne..",
>>talat sings "raat ne kya kya khaab ..", mukesh sings "Zindagi khaab hai"
>>etc etc.., need I say more :-)
>Yes , we should say something more ! :-) Because, it's not just "KHaab"
>vs "KHwaab" issue. As far as I know, "KHaab" is not at all a proper
>Urdu word. It's used just to fit to the tune/rhythm etc. It's also
>simpler to pronounce. I have no idea if Hindi has taken this word from
>Urdu and in the process modified it.
>There are two "kha" sounds in Urdu. The pronunciation of this sound in
>"KHaalid" and in "khaanaa" is quite different. The first one is a real
>"throaty" sound. The "KHwaab" one is like "KHaalid".
Right!! I agree with Abhay. Both two 'Kha' and that the word should be
'khwab' and that 'kha' in that should be as 'khaalid'. In fact the Mukesh song
above in deed 'Zindagi Khwab Hai Tha Hame Bhi Pata'. (Unless of course if
you are talking about Salil Chowdhuri composition of Jagate Raho. I am talking
about Anil Biswas composition of Chhoti Chhoti Baaten).
Snehal
Syed Rizwan
In <4mp4vd$q...@gold.tc.umn.edu> rava...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi) writes:
> You missed my point, just as Ravindra missed. It is called
> sarcasm (hinted by the trailing "right" and the smiklies)
> I was saying it sarcastically to those who were
> fighting over "KHaab" and "KHwaab". If the "ik" and "ek" pair
> is acceptable, then why not "KHaab" and "KHwaab" ? At least
> in spoken language these changes happen in course of time.
Hello Shashikant,
Sorry I missed the sarcasm there, I guess its pretty
hard to convey any feelings in electronic format. :) Anyway, on the
'khaab' 'khwaab' thingie, the only correct pronunciation is 'khaab',
'khwaab' is NOT an acceptable form.
> My point with "ik" and "ek" is that the actual word is "ek"
> from Sanskrit, in writing it will remain the correct form, like
> "anguli" and NOT "ungalee" (for finger). BUT, with a prolonged
> usage in spoken form, the "ik" and "ungalee" are aceeptable
> forms.
Please elaborate on the 'anguli' thing, is that what the pronunciation
used to be? This is the first time I've heard that. Btw, 'ek' and 'ik'
are BOTH acceptable, distinct, yet synonymous, words in Urdu. I dunno
about sanskrit though.. :(
> I have heard, read the word as "KHwaahish", and both my hindi
> AND Urdu dictionaries say it is "KHwaahish" with a "w" and not
> "without a "w". So again, the form without a "w" is more of the
> spoken form gaining acceptance.
I think the reason its written with a 'w' is because it is spelled that
way in Urdu, but the 'w' is completely silent and that is the ONLY
acceptable pronunciation.
> Once again, my dictionary says it is "jhooThaa" and so have all
> my Hindi textbooks, the Hindi poets and writers like Premchand,
> Dinakar, Gupta, Prasad etc.
Again, the dictionary is wrong, you may want to check again, you MAY
be confusing 'JhooTaa' with 'jooThaa' two competely distinct words...
> Ravindra said in Urdu script "Tha" and "Ta" are written the
> same way. But that is no excuse for pronouncing a word wrong
Wrong, they are written differently...
> Anyway, the point is far stretched. Lets get back to KK.
> All I tried to do was give some examples to say that the few
> words given as KK's bad pronounciation were not enough to prove
> the point.
Well I already said, pronunciation wasn't that important, cause I want
the lyrics to be a challenge. More thought you have to put in to
understand the words, the better. In THAT regard, I guess RD Burman
was the best, the Big B, the second best, KK the bronze medalist, and
Rafi would be the last one in. :)
A humble disciple of the loRD!
Rizwan
U.V. Ravindra
U.V. Ravindra wrote:
> > "U.V. Ravindra" <uvr> writes:
> > >GHazal "ab ke ham bichhD.e to shaayad kabhi *KHaaboN* meiN mileN" by his
> > >manager-cum-shaa'ir Farhat Shahzad.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
> >
> > Is this one really by Farhat Shahzad? I thought he joined up Mehdi Hasan
> > later in his career, that is, I though MH was singing this one before he
> > met FS.
U.V. Ravindra wrote:
> Well, I thought it was by FS. I'll check up and let you know.
>
Okay, this one is for Sanjeev and all those still interested in
this thread. :-)
The GHazal I mention above is not by Farhat Shehzad. Sanjeev
was right in pointing out that MH had been singing it for a
long time before meeting FS.
The GHazal is by Ahmed Faraz, another of MH's favourite shaa'irs.
I'm sorry for the mistake I made.
U.V. Ravindra
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi wrote:
>
<big snip> <big snip> <big snip>
> >>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
> >>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
> >
> > Please elaborate on this? Are you talking about the word that means
> > 'liar'? If so, it is SUPPOSED to be pronounced 'JhooTaa'. The 'T'
> > sound is like the one in 'ChaaT', not like the one in 'THayla' that
> > the 'ChaaT' is sold on.. *grin*
>
> Once again, my dictionary says it is "jhooThaa" and so have all
> my Hindi textbooks, the Hindi poets and writers like Premchand,
> Dinakar, Gupta, Prasad etc.
>
> Ravindra said in Urdu script "Tha" and "Ta" are written the
> same way. But that is no excuse for pronouncing a word wrong
> and claim that to be the correct way! it would something like
> in English, writing Gautam Buddha as "buddha" and pronouncing
> it as "booDaa". That does not mean "booDaa" is the right
> pronounciation :-)))
Well, Shashi, I might have got you wrong a couple of times earlier
on in that article, but that is no excuse for getting me absolutely
wrong w.r.t this point. :-) :-)
When I say that the word is spelt as jhooTa, I don't mean that the
words 'jhooTHa' and 'jhooTa' are written the same way in Urdu. NOT
AT ALL. The Urdu script is a phonetic script, just like the
Devanagari script (and not quasi-phonetic like the Roman script).
Therefore, if one wanted to write 'jhooTHa' one *would indeed* write
'jeem, he, waaw, Te, he, alif' and would read it as 'jhooTHa'.
The word is not written as 'jhooTa' because the language is
incapable of discriminating between 'Ta' and 'THa', nor because
it doesn't care either which way. The word is written that way
because the correct way to write it is that.
And the word is pronounced just as it is written, because that
is the way one works with phonetic languages. Indeed, if you
wrote 'jhooTa' and read 'jhooTHa', it would be like writing
'buddha' (in the Roman script, if you will), and reading it
as 'buddhu' :-) :-)
Just kiddin', of course. No offence meant.
Regards,
Ravindra.
--
Sung by Mehdi Hassan (in a live recording, re-heard yesterday)
KHaaboN (!) meiN tirE gar miri KHaahish (!) nahiN hOgI
mujh sE tiri aaNkhON ki parastish nahiN hOgI
Moral of the story: Listen to Mehdi Hassan if you want
to learn what is acceptable and unacceptable in pronunciation.
(He gives free lectures during his live concerts).
U.V. Ravindra
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi wrote:
>
<snip>
> My point in the whole post was that words do take a slightly
> different form in spoken usage, and they are acceptable. The
> "ik", "ek" example was given as an example of an accepted pair,
> so "khaab" and "khwaab" should also be left alone from the
> dragging :-))) But as to your point, "ek" originates in
> Sanskrit, so that is the "original" pronounciation. Even in
> written Hindi it is "ek". It is "ik" ONLY in spoken Hindi. I am
> not aware that in urdu script "ek" and "ik" would be written
> the same way or not, but even if they are THAT would not be a
> justification for the mixed up pronounciation. The
> justification to the mixed pronounciation is that SPOKEN forms
> DO change.
You are right, the spoken forms do change. But we are not talking
of spoken forms of the same word here, Shashi. We are talking of
two different words, SPELT differently, SPOKEN differently, with
the same meaning. It is unfortunate that the Hindi script, when
transliterating certain Urdu words, has to resort to approximations.
What I am saying is that the words "Ek" (with the 'E' as in
dEvtaa) and "ik" (with the 'i' as in 'dil'), are indeed DIFFERENT
words, written AND spoken differently, and mean the same. The
fact that they are derived from the same Sanskrit root does not
come into the picture at all. So many words in Hindi are also
not pronounced the same way as they should be in Sanskrit,
EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE SPELT THE SAME WAY.
> >Similar differences exist for the words "tErI" and "tirI", and "mErE"
> >and 'mirE' ... they are written the same way in Devanagari, but they
> >not the same way in Urdu, and hence, are DIFFERENT words, meaning the
> >same.
>
> Whether these differences occur because they are written the
> SAME way in Urdu script, I don't know, but even without knowing
> that, I would say these variations would highly be possible,
> existing and accepted. There are so many words which take
> slightly different forms, like "yamunaa", "jamunaa". I won't go
> in those details again, I think we had a full course fo that in
> Mar-Apr 95 :-))))
The difference between 'yamuna' and 'jamna/jumna/jamuna' is entirely
dialectical. Nowhere in India does any one claim that, for instance,
Avadhi, or Maithili, or Brajbhasha, is anything but a dialect of
Hindi. No one says that these are different languages in themselves.
However, no one claims that Urdu is a dialect of Hindi. In Urdu,
'tErA' is WRITTEN differently AND PRONOUNCED differently from
'tirA', which is why I call them two different words. Similarly,
'mErA' and 'mirA'. This is not a dialectical difference: it occurs
in EVERY dialect of Urdu.
Tell you what, Shashi. Why don't we continue this discussion on a
more private channel. It's becoming too irrelevant here. May be
we can both take a refresher on the full course too ;-))))
> >Anyway, coming back to the mispronunciation thing, certainly KK was better
> >than SDB ... he never said "yahaaN kaun hai teraa, *moosaa-feer*, jaayegaa
> >kahaaN? dam le le ghaD.i bhar, yeh *cheyaa* paayega kahaaN?"
>
> boy! UVR, wait till you listen any classical pieces or Thumris,
> you will end up classifying half the things as
> mispronounciations, e.g. Parveen Sultana's "toooom raadhe bano~~~
> shyaam".
Shashi, didn't I tell you sometime long long long ago that not only
do I listen to (and enjoy) classical music, but have also LEARNT it?
Despite this, there is a certain kind of pronunciation of words
which I *do* consider incorrect ... the laghu-s and guru/deergh-s
in classical music are not exactly directly mappable to the
incorrect lengthening of sounds in light music. Indeed, one
of the *essentials* of good light musicianship is correct pronunciation.
> >>The word that I have problem with is jhooThaa, which all singrs
> >>pronounce as "jhooTaa" even Lata.
> >
> >Indeed! And it is written this way in Urdu, quite often, too.
> >Not only jhooT, but also hoNT, THaaT, etc etc ... So, she's not wrong,
> >but we are, if we think she is ...
>
> The limitation of a script is NOT license to change the
> pronounciation. So, THIS logic of yours is not acceptable. BUT,
> I agree with time, spoken forms change, and so does written
> form. Written form takes a longer time to change.
>
> In Hindi, the word STILL is "jhooThaa", check it in
> dictionaries, in Premchand stories, Jayshankar Prasad's novels
> or Maithili's poems.
In *HINDI* it is, Shashi, but in Urdu, it isn't. Read any of Faiz,
Saahir, Meer or GHalib IN THE URDU script, and you'll see what I mean.
Incidentally, as I have said in another article, the words are spelt
this way in Urdu NOT because of the limitations of the Urdu script,
but because this indeed is the correct spelling of the URDU word.
Look at it this way: these words are not Hindi words that Urdu has
borrowed because it didn't have other words to fill the void. These
are native Urdu words which are spelt the way the Urdu Ustads
said they should be.
> Anyway, I am already getting tired of this circular thread of who is
> best. All I was trying to do was to say that those few words cited as
> KK's bad pronounciaiton were not strong enough evidence.
>
> -- Pintu Diwana
This has come too far away from Music/KK or anything this newsgroup
stands for. Let's ditch this discussion at least on RMIM and
carry it on elsewhere.
Regards,
Ravindra.
Urdu is NOT Hindi.
(with apologies to Richard M. Stallman) ;-))
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <1996050811...@eng3.sequent.com>, "Snehal B. Oza" <sne...@sequent.com> writes:
>I have always believed otherwise. In fact Lata's urdu sounds miserable.
Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram!! Ye kya ho raha hai ? Quayaamat ke aasaar nazar aate hain
:-) First you start off with saying that the music of M-e-A is ordinary...
then you say that Naushad's tunes all sound the same and now Lata's Urdu
sounds "miserable" ?? MISERABLE ?? That's too strong a word, esp. when used
to describe someone who's darn good at pronouncing difficult Urdu sentences.
In the case of M-e-A and Naushad, I can attribute it to personal opinions, but
you'll have to back your claim here with some specific examples.
>That's the reason her ghazal gaayaki is (IMO) not as good as Asha's.
While I myself prefer Asha over Lata when it comes to GHazals, it is certainly
not due to the latter's pronunciation. Singing a GHazal requires more than
just a good pronunciation... the quality of voice, IMHO, is also very important.
I feel that Asha's voice is more suited for GHazals than Lata's and hence my
preference...
>Listen to Asha's
>'Shauk Har Rang Raqibe' and Lata's any! (Or for that matter even Asha's any!)
OK, let's pick any from Lata's many:
1. "Na milta GHam to barbaadi ke afsaane kahan jaate...."
This is a GHazal from Amar. The way she pronounces GHam is so very perfect.
2. "Rahen na rahen hum..." from Mamta.
Not a GHazal, but listen to "Jab hum na honge, jab humaari KHaak pe tum
rukoge...." Pay attn. to "KHaak"
I really don't find Lata's pronunciation bad except in a very few cases where
I myself am not sure and therefore will not list them before I confirm it
with someone who is knowledgeable.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... and a Lata fan.
********************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Jab hum na honge, jab humaari KHaak pe tum rukoge chalte chalte
Ashkon se bheegi chandni me, ik sada si sunoge, chalte chalte
Wahin pe kahin, wahin pe kahin, hum, tumse milenge
Banke kali, banke saba, baaGH-e-wafa me
Majrooh in "Rahen na rahen hum, mehka karenge..." (Mamta)
********************************************************************************
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 42055> of sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
>
>Also, Rafi said:
>
>Khuli Palak Men "Jhoota" Gussa, Band Palak Men Pyaar...
>
>
>
>the line "...Aur Videshi Maal Ki Holi Gandhi Ne Jalvaayee..."
>
>has Rafi saying the word as "Vadeshi".
>
>where I have seen "dhokha" written in DevaNagri.
>
>Comments?
>
>
>
Hi Sanjeev, paadhaaro mhaare des!! Welcome to the "jhooThaa"
jhooTaa" war!! Thanx for bringing up the "dhokhaa" and "dhokaa"
pair. I want to see what reason UVR comes up this time :-)))))
If it is again the reason that in Urdu script, "k" and "kh" are
written the same way (as are "Ta" and "Tha") then this is more
of a problem like writing an Indian language word in Roman
script and screwing its prounciation, then imposing THAT
pronounciation as the RIGHT one :-))) [ Urdu script IS foreign
to India in origin ]
Before Syed or UVR pounce on me, let me add explicitly, I very
well understand that spoken forms change. And such mistakes
"jhooTaa", "dhokaa" happen with MANY people, specially while
speaking. But whenever the "pure/correct" form is needed, see
how it is written. Another example of what spoken thing does is
"mere ko baahar jaanaa hai" should be "mujhe baahar jaanaa hai"
"mere ko" "tere ko" is not correct Hindi. It is "mujhe", "tujhe",
"mujhako", "tujhako", "tumako".
so long,
-- Pintu Diwana
Sanjay Joshi
On 7 May 1996, Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
>In article <Pine.GSO.3.93.96050...@eesun1.tamu.edu> Sanjay Joshi <jo...@ee.tamu.edu> writes:
>>Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST.
>>Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST.
>>
>
>(...more insanity deleted...:-))
>
>
>Somebody has WAAYYYYYYYY too much time on their hands, huh? :-)
Yeah Sure!! Finals are over!! What to do? Listen to KK!!
Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi
In <article 42091> of "U.V. Ravindra" <u...@vnet.ibm.com> writes:
>Pintu Diwana aka ShashiKant Joshi wrote:
>>
>
UVR,
In your various replies, you have cleared the air. Surprisingly, we
both were saying the same thing. You misunderstood me in my first post
I shall reply you in private mail.
This was the end of the 1996 issue of "Urdu-Hindi, Rafi-KK
pronounciation Marathon" :-))))))
All participants are hereby heartily thanked.
-- Pintu Diwana
Avinash Lagu
Whether Rafi (Of course) or Mukesh are chosen is not important. Kishore
kumar does not deserve to be considered since he did not have even a
rudimentary training in classical music. His tAAn starts as
he-he-he-he. Come on!!
IMHO great singers are those who know classical music but are able to
hide it whenever needed but employed whenever demanded. e.g. Lata.
My $0.02 worth.
Avinash Lagu
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <4mqous$1r...@fidoii.cc.lehigh.edu>, sm...@Lehigh.EDU (SAMIUDDIN
MOHAMMED) writes:
>
> In article <1996050811...@eng3.sequent.com>, "Snehal B. Oza" <sne...@sequent.com> writes:
>
>>I have always believed otherwise. In fact Lata's urdu sounds miserable.
>
>Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram!! Ye kya ho raha hai ? Quayaamat ke aasaar nazar aate hain
>:-) First you start off with saying that the music of M-e-A is ordinary...
A couple of people sent me mail asking what M-e-A stands for... so, I thought
I might as well clarify on the net too...
M-e-A stands for Moghul-e-Azam. BTW, MEA are also the initials of my advisor.
So, does that make my dissertation Anarkali ? :-)
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
********************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Suna rahi hai daastaan, shama mere mazaar ki
QuizaaN me bhi khili rahi hai, ye kali anaar ki
Ise mazaar mat kaho, ye mahal hai pyaar ka
Rajendra Krishan in "Ye zindagi usiki hai, jo kisi ka ho gaya...." (Anarkali)
********************************************************************************
anand
In article <1996050814...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net>,
sne...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net says...
>
>Obviously... For one reason that, those numbers similar to panjabi heer or
>in Pahadi and hence suit the singing most. OTOH, south indian (madrasi as you
>correctly attribute it in NI context) languages (IMO) have no impact on Hindi/
>Urdu ????as well as cinema music overall?????
>
Hi,
I totally disagree with the last portion of your last statement! I can only come
to the conclusion that you haven't listened to much South-Indian music (in
particular the good ones!). They do not contribute to Hindi/ Urdu cinema music
but saying: 'South Indian music has no impact on Indian Cinema music overall' is
not correct!
You mean to say singers like Yesudas, S.P.Balasubramaniam etc. and music
directors like Illayaraja, Rehman etc. haven't had an impact on Indian
music!!@@##$??
Anand Kuppuswamy ( A 'Rafian' :-) )
Ashok
In article <4mu3nl$1q...@fidoii.cc.lehigh.edu>, <sm...@Lehigh.EDU>
writes:
>
> M-e-A stands for Moghul-e-Azam. BTW, MEA are also the initials of my
> advisor. So, does that make my dissertation Anarkali ? :-)
>
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>
I know 'Anarkali' belongs to a different league than 'Mughal-e-Azam'
and upgrading 'MEA' to the calibre of 'A' wouldn't be easy. :) Still,
do give it a shot. After all, it's shaagird's dharma to try and excel
the ustaad. :)
A (a CRazy)
PS:
> Lines for the day:
>
> Suna rahi hai daastaan, shama mere mazaar ki
> QuizaaN me bhi khili rahi hai, ye kali anaar ki
> Ise mazaar mat kaho, ye mahal hai pyaar ka
>
You are on the right track. :))
U.V. Ravindra
> Sanjay Joshi <jo...@ee.tamu.edu> writes:
> >Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST.
> >Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST. Kishore Kumar is the BEST.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
> (...more insanity deleted...:-))
>
> Somebody has WAAYYYYYYYY too much time on their hands, huh? :-)
>
> BTW, (Mohd. Rafi ROCKS my world)^100000000000000000000000
>
> Sanjeev
See, what lengths we Rafians go, to express our devotion for
our *god*... while those KKKlaners just take recourse to
writing one line and "cut-and-paste'ing it 'n' number of times
(easy if you use an intelligent editor like emacs)... to do the
same!
Rafi rules *my* world, too, Sanjeev... :-))
Ravindra.
;-) ;-)
U.V. Ravindra
You're right, of course, Chetan, but what made me say what I said
was the thought that even if he had made some mistakes earlier on
in his career, he would have learnt the language as time passed
and, perhaps (just *perhaps*) it is possible that he made more
glaring (that is, compared to these) errors earlier on, than
later on.
Ravindra.
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <NEWTNews.831751...@ADhareshwar.WorldBank.Org>, Ashok <ADhar...@WorldBank.Org> writes:
>I know 'Anarkali' belongs to a different league than 'Mughal-e-Azam'
Yup, Anarkali is not is the same league as M-e-A.
>and upgrading 'MEA' to the calibre of 'A' wouldn't be easy. :) Still,
>do give it a shot. After all, it's shaagird's dharma to try and excel
>the ustaad. :)
Basic rule of grad school: The advisor is the greatest => M-e-A is the
greatest!
>A (a CRazy)
A "C" is always bad ! :-)
>PS:
>
>> Lines for the day:
>>
>> Suna rahi hai daastaan, shama mere mazaar ki
>> QuizaaN me bhi khili rahi hai, ye kali anaar ki
>> Ise mazaar mat kaho, ye mahal hai pyaar ka
>>
>
>You are on the right track. :))
Ah, it's not me but the duniyawaale who say that, and
"Ai `Ashok' ye sab duniyawaale bekaar ki baaten karte hain
Paayal ke GHamon ka ilm nahin, jhankaar ki baaten karte hain..." :-)
Harish Suvarna
Va va VVaa Samiuddin Mia, Suraai me samundar bhar diya.
Are you all comparing Mea/Anarkali picture wise or music wise?
I have not seen Anaarkali, but songs wise Mea has a very very very little edge
over anarkali to me. That could be becuase of Madhubaala. Who is the
counterpart Meena Kumari?
--
==================================================================
Harish Suvarna Work Phone: 415 933 4333
MIPS, Silicon Graphics Inc Home Phone: 408 383 0645
2011 N Shoreline Blvd Email: su...@mti.sgi.com
MS 10U-181, Mountain View
CA 94039-7311
==================================================================
Rajiv Shridhar
In <wkwn33l...@russell.csc.ncsu.edu>, pkti...@ncsu.edu wrote:
:
: Arun> If there is anything wrong with KK's pronunciation, it should be
: Arun> when he sings "aavo, jaavo, " etc..which should be "aao, jao" .
: Arun> Otherwise his pronunciation was perfect.
:
: Yes, his "aao, jao" were kind of shaky. But that is not the only place where
: he messes up. Remember 'Raat kali ..' in which he says 'need' for
: 'neend'. He pronounces 'neend' properly in all other songs that I have
: heard. Is there something special about 'Raat kali'?? Did Navin Nishchol
: have a blocked nose in the situation for the song or what?
:
Maybe it is not accepted spoken Hindi nowadays, but this "aavo, jaavo" style
of singing was quite accepted (and prevalent!) a few years ago. If you've
heard the old-time filmi singers like Sehgal, Rajeshwari (?), and even those
songs of Ashok Kumar and Devika Rani.... the accepted pronounciation _was_
"aavo", not "aao".
I think Kishore's `lapses' (if that!) in this region were caused by his upbringing
in an environment where mainly Hindi of the old style was spoken, and of course,
he saw and heard his "dada" sing in the same way.
In fact, my grandmother (who has a beautiful voice even now, and used to sing
on radio in the days it used to be the biggest deal for a singer...) also
sang it as "aavo". Never spoke it that way, though. hmmmmm....
Regards,
Rajiv
--
Rajiv Shridhar
Computer Systems Engineering
Northeastern University
Boston, MA
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <4n0onr$2...@chronicle.mti.sgi.com>, Harish Suvarna <sundu> writes:
>Va va VVaa Samiuddin Mia, Suraai me samundar bhar diya.
:-)
>Are you all comparing Mea/Anarkali picture wise or music wise?
Neither. I'm just comparing my obsession for Naushad's music with that of
Ashok for CR's :-) Too many "wars", too little time :-(
>I have not seen Anaarkali, but songs wise Mea has a very very very little edge
>over anarkali to me.
Every little edge counts! :-)
>That could be becuase of Madhubaala. Who is the counterpart Meena Kumari?
No, Bina Rai.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)... who respects CR too.
>Harish Suvarna Work Phone: 415 933 4333
********************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Jise kaam hai raat din aansuon se
Use hukm ye hai hanse aur hansaae
Zamaana ye samjha ke hum peeke aae, hic, peeke aae
Rajendra Krishan (?) in "Mohabbat me aise quadam Dagmagaae..."
********************************************************************************
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
In article <Dr452...@iquest.net> Avinash Lagu <avi...@iquest.net>
writes:
> My $0.02 worth.
That logic can be turned around just as well... :-) One could
easily say that it was in fact Kishore's greatness that in spite of
not having had any formal training in classical education he has been
up there with the rest of the best (this is only to indicate my
neutral stand in the War, personally KK *is* the best for me), while
the Rafis and Manna Deys have had their lacklustre moments in spite of
all their classical mastery...
And I don't see the logic behind why classical training is a
prerequisite to great singing.
Upping the bid with the rest of $0.98...
Ciao,
ND
\____Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu____/
Office: ISIP, MSU, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road, MS State MS 39762
Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2689
\_http://www.isip.msstate.edu/____Disc Space - The Final Frontier..._/
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Abhay Avachat (ab...@delss02.mch.sni.de) wrote:
: The pronunciation is nevertheless very important and subtle differences
: can create havoc. The best example of this is "Jaleel" and "Zaleel".
: If you write in Hindi script, it's just a 'nukta' that is more. The
: meanings are totally opposite !
And this reminds me of how one of the radio announcers used to pronounce
Jabeen Jaleel as Zabeen Zaleel. She is the female featured in the song "Aao
shama jalaake hum aaj ....". A great favorite of Sami-bhai, this song. Him
for the Pstats request please..... I found the song to be boring and
repeated way to often on DD.
Later,
Ikram.
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <4nd9d3$4...@news.tamu.edu>, iak...@eesun2.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) writes:
>And this reminds me of how one of the radio announcers used to pronounce
>Jabeen Jaleel as Zabeen Zaleel. She is the female featured in the song
Have the radio announcers started naming the actors as well ? Humari jawani me
to aisa nahin hota thha :-)
>"Aao shama jalaake hum aaj ....".
^^^^^^^
"Bujhaake", if we are talking about the same song.
"Ye raat ye fizaaen, phir aaen ya na aaen
Aao (NOT aavo :-) ) shama bujhaake, hum aaj dil jalaaen..."
>A great favorite of Sami-bhai, this song. Him
I absolutely love it!
>for the Pstats request please.....
Here are the stats from Ashok's RJGK:
Song: ye raat ye fizaayen, phir aaye ya na aaye
aao shamaa bujhaake, ham aaj dil jalaayen
Film: Batwaara ('61)
Singer: Asha-Rafi
Music: S. Madan
Lyrics: Majrooh
>I found the song to be boring and repeated way to often on DD.
Change "jalaake" to "bujhaake" and u'll atleast enjoy the lyrics.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>Ikram.
sanr...@gmail.com
> Who was the best?
Kishore Kumar
