Original listener
bnadig
various facets of listening, I ask the many listeners/performers here,
about the what, how and why of listening... Here is my brief take:
What: I mostly listen to instrumental (Bansuri, Sitar, Sarod, Sarangi,
Santoor, Veena et al) and vocal music. Longer the better, for me;-)
How: A Phillippino friend of mine, who is into meditation (TM kind)
once asked me if I meditate. My answer: No, I listen to music...
Why: I feel like a salt doll trying to measure the depth of the
ocean...
"... I am a original listener" said Aravind Adiga in his book "White
Tiger". I know there are many "Original listeners" here and it would
be an immensely enriching experience if you shared your wisdom...
Regards
Balu Nadig
C Parthapratim
My preference goes to vocal, yes the longer the better, but at the
same time I enjoy Abdul Karim Khan and Faiyaz Khan's short pieces, and
DO NOT enjoy Abdul Waheed Khan (apart from some academic interests). I
love to listen to Laykari in Ali Akbar's style, avoid the taankari if
I can, enjoy all of Nikhil Banerjee, and avoid all of Ravi Shankar
(short pieces are okay with me). At the second layer, I'd go for BJ,
Dagar (moinuddin), and MM. There is no third layer.
Thanks.
bnadig
If I may ask couple of questions:
1) How does this "layering" contribute to your listening experience?
2) What are your reasons for preferring vocal over instrumental?
Regards
Balu
C Parthapratim
Interesting questions. Both. May I write the answer on my blog page
instead? I need some supporting visual.
bnadig
>
> Interesting questions. Both. May I write the answer on my blog page
> instead? I need some supporting visual.
Surely. Looking forward to it.
Vishwaroopa Sharma
opinions on music.
Dear Balu,
It's a pleasure to write what I love so much. Here go my opinions.
What: Mostly vocal in all genres. I love quality than the length. I
love each and every musician who has an appeal and who could touch my
heart. Most of the cases I sideline lavishly their shortcomings
(though technically) and love their soul filling rendering. I always
prefer shorter versions which avoid all unnecessary elongation. I
restrict myself to maximum of 30 mins. Seldom I listen to longer
performances only if the aesthetic continuity is kept alive. That
apart, I love and take delight in Ravi Shankar. Less often I listen to
all other instrumentalists. Also like some selected renderings of
Nikhil Banerjee.
How: Mostly through my iPod. I listen to music virtually all times. I
listen to any raga in any time. I also like the traditional time
theory. Also, I'm fortunate to listen to music along with a few good
rasikas in a blessed environment.
Why: I feel elevated when I listen to music.
Regards,
VS
abhayphadnis
infrequent since I moved from Poona to Chennai many years ago.
Recorded music is the saving grace! Listen mostly to Mansur, Gangubai,
Kishori Amonkar, Padmavati Shaligram, and Prabhakar Karekar. Other
singers come and go when the music is on shuffle mode! Don't like very
short renditions (with the exception of the Abdul Karim Khan
recordings - those are in a class of their own!).
How: CDs or the digitised files on my laptop. Either as an independent
activity, or while doing something else (driving, working, cooking...)
Why: ye to kabhii sochaa hii nahii.n! sochanaa pa.Degaa...jab sunane
se fursat mile!
Warm regards,
Abhay
bnadig
Thanks for expressing your opinion Sharma ji. Writing/reading about
music could be quite fascinating - Rajan ji and Warren ji come to my
mind... I once read a post, here on RMIC, which was as lovely as the
music it reviewed -I wish I had saved it for posterity... Anyone know
what I am talking about?
What:
Agree with you, it's not the length but the quality that fills the
soul. But then, when you listen to say, a 74 sec quintessential
Nand, as In Lata Mangeshkar's Naqsh Fariyadi, you thirst for more...
How:
Listening to music is such a personal experience, as you do on your
IPod. How does listening with a 'few good rasikas in a blessed
environment' enhance your listening experience?
Why:
So true. I once heard a rendition of raag Saraswati by Pt. Ram Narayan
on Sarangi (while on a Air India flight)
that was so compelling that I heard it everytime it rotated on that
channel - a good 10/12 times perhaps... I unsucessfully asked Air
India for a copy:( Luckily for me, it was eventually released as a
cassette.
Do you keep going back to such favorites to re-explore that sense of
(initial) exaltation?
Regards,
Balu Nadig
Kiran
Dear All,
This is my first post on this forum. I was drawn to this question by
Balu. Here's my take on this:
What: Classical (Both Hindustani and Karnatak), semi-classical, old
film (Hindi, Kannada and Telugu) and non-film recordings. I like to
listen to Pt. Omkarnath Thakur, Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and Pt. D V
Paluskar in Hindustani; Dr. M Balamuralikrishna and Smt. M S
Subbulakshmi in Karnatak; Lata Mangeshkar, Talat Mahmood, Mukesh,
Hemant Kumar, Ghantasala and P B Srinivas in film and non-film music.
I love to sing bhajans with devotees at Ramakrishna Mutt.
How: These days mostly through ipod. Sometimes I listen to tapes and
CDs.
Why: I feel every emotion of mine gets expressed through music.
Regards,
Kiran Begari
Vishwaroopa Sharma
> what I am talking about?
I don't know, for sure. Please enunciate.
> What:
> Agree with you, it's not the length but the quality that fills the
> soul. But then, when you listen to say, a 74 sec quintessential
> Nand, as In Lata Mangeshkar's Naqsh Fariyadi, you thirst for more...
You may be true. But my opinion is that, I suffice myself with even a
very small recording, given its strength. I'd recall how I loved
BGAK's excellent 78rpm of Kedar (He Naveli Nar). I have never ever
felt another Kedar of that spirit, though I have Kedars spanning about
an hour and more. Similar is Kesarbai's monumental 78rpm Nand and
Vibhas, I feel. How can I forget those haunting old Hindi songs by my
favourites: Talat, Rafi, Mukesh, Kishore, Lata.......?
> How does listening with a 'few good rasikas in a blessed
> environment' enhance your listening experience?
We are 4-5 rasikas here in my town. Everybody knows music at least to
an extent. Nobody has a strong (missionary type) bias. We usually
arrange listening sessions once in a month. We listen to an hour of
music. After the session, we talk about it. We share our feelings. It
touches our soul when a friend also shares the same feeling.
> Do you keep going back to such favorites to re-explore that sense of
> (initial) exaltation?
Of course yes! [From a few days Madhup Mudgal's Chhayanat is haunting
me like the face of the beloved.]
Regards,
VS
bnadig
> What: Mostly vocal. Love live concerts, but these have become
> infrequent since I moved from Poona to Chennai many years ago.
> Recorded music is the saving grace! Listen mostly to Mansur, Gangubai,
> Kishori Amonkar, Padmavati Shaligram, and Prabhakar Karekar. Other
> singers come and go when the music is on shuffle mode! Don't like very
> short renditions (with the exception of the Abdul Karim Khan
> recordings - those are in a class of their own!).
>
Vocal over Intrumental, live over recorded - tell me more Abhay. Do
you get 'more
out of the music' when it is a live concert? What do you miss when you
listen to
say, Abdul Karim Khan's (AKK) recordings? I have limited exposure to
AKK - do
let me know your favorites, so I can go listen to it...
You must Poona badly, HCM-wise... But then Chennai is the hotbed of
CCM. Do
you attend CCM concerts there ? Any thoughts on such?
> How: CDs or the digitised files on my laptop. Either a an independent
> activity, or while doing something else (driving, working, cooking...)
>
When I was a student I had music constantly playing in the background.
Now I sit
in front of the music, close my eyes and listen to it... I prefer
music filling the air
as I listen, to listening over a headphone...
> Why: ye to kabhii sochaa hii nahii.n! sochanaa pa.Degaa...jab sunane
> se fursat mile!
Would love to hear about it:)
>
> Warm regards,
> Abhay
bnadig
>
> This is my first post on this forum. I was drawn to this question by
> Balu. Here's my take on this:
>
Kiran, thank you and welcome to your first post on RMIC/RMIM.
> What: Classical (Both Hindustani and Karnatak), semi-classical, old
> film (Hindi, Kannada and Telugu) and non-film recordings. I like to
> listen to Pt. Omkarnath Thakur, Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and Pt. D V
> Paluskar in Hindustani; Dr. M Balamuralikrishna and Smt. M S
> Subbulakshmi in Karnatak; Lata Mangeshkar, Talat Mahmood, Mukesh,
> Hemant Kumar, Ghantasala and P B Srinivas in film and non-film music.
> I love to sing bhajans with devotees at Ramakrishna Mutt.
>
Although I have been listening to music for over 25 years now, it
still feels like I have just begun and barely scratched the surface.
And what an embarrassment of riches we have... I love Dr. BMK's
exposition of CCM... Kumar Gandharva has been one of my early
favorites..I also listen to Ananth Swamy (Kannada), Chitra
(Malayalam), Bhupzen Hazarika, Raghunath Panigrahi, Sachin Da, Anup
Jalota... Some of Lata's non-filmy music (Marathi, Bengali, Ghalib
Ghazals, Meera Bhajans, Bhagawad Gita) is exceptional too...
It seems like you listen to more HCM more than CCM. Any reasons for
this preference?
> How: These days mostly through ipod. Sometimes I listen to tapes and
> CDs.
>
When I listen to music now, I prefer to sit in front of it, close my
eyes and listen to it attentively. Much like in meditation. In that
sense, how do you listen to music?
> Why: I feel every emotion of mine gets expressed through music.
>
How does that happen? Do you go seeking music that manifests different
emotions or the other way around?
I know not why, but the other day I was endlessly humming Mukesh's
"Woh Subah Kabhi To Aayegi" and Bhupen Hazarika's "Dil Hoom Hoom Kare"
while being completely impervious to the meaning of its lyrics...
Another day it is Nikhil Banerjee's Hemant or Amir Khan's Marwa or
Niaz/Fayyaz Ahmed Khan's Yaman or Dr. BMK's 'Devadi Deva' or Ramani's
Ranjini that I am listening to... It as if music has no other desire
but to fulfill itself...
> Regards,
> Kiran Begari
Kiran
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Balu,
Thanks for your reply.
First, let me answer your questions.
No, I listen to both CCM and HCM. It's because of Hindi film songs and
bhajans that I was inspired to learn HCM, only for two years though. I
did not put in the right efforts to continue learning HCM. I still
regret it. But I enjoy listening to the great masters in both the
forms.
No matter what the place is, I enjoy music when I am alone. Yes,
discussing about music with others is wonderful, but the ecstasy that
I reach when I am listening to music alone is something indescribable.
At that point, it becomes a state of "bhava tanmayata". For example,
when I listen to "Dekh chand ke or from Aag", the music creates
effects of projection and dissolution of universe. On the other hand,
"Malan layi chun chun" by Pt. Omkarnath brings in a pain of separation
from my beloved, the Lord. Dr. BMK's "Ragasudha rasa" sends a wave of
tranquility and timeless feeling in me.
Oh yes, as you said I have just seen the tip of the iceberg. There are
countless masters of this divine knowledge, each a projection of that
fountainhead of all knowledge, the Brahman himself.
As you know, there's a rag for every possible emotion in our
tradition. I know only a handful of them, and those have got
registered. That's how those spring up from my sub-conscience to
resonate with my thoughts and emotions. Those todi taans by Pt.
Omkarnath seem to be as if I am bringing out an eternity of pathos
from deep within me.
Interesting to hear that you have similar thoughts.
Regards,
Kiran Begari
abhayphadnis
> On Oct 9, 10:56 am, abhayphadnis <aphad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What: Mostly vocal. Love live concerts, but these have become
> > infrequent since I moved from Poona to Chennai many years ago.
> > Recorded music is the saving grace! Listen mostly to Mansur, Gangubai,
> > Kishori Amonkar, Padmavati Shaligram, and Prabhakar Karekar. Other
> > singers come and go when the music is on shuffle mode! Don't like very
> > short renditions (with the exception of the Abdul Karim Khan
> > recordings - those are in a class of their own!).
>
> Vocal over Intrumental, live over recorded - tell me more Abhay. Do
> you get 'more
> out of the music' when it is a live concert? What do you miss when you
> listen to
> say, Abdul Karim Khan's (AKK) recordings? I have limited exposure to
> AKK - do
> let me know your favorites, so I can go listen to it...
>
In my experience, a live concert *with a good audience* brings
something alive in the singer. The chemistry between the singer and
the audience works best in small mehfils where the singer and the
first few rows of people are face to face, where the 'daad' from the
audience is clearly seen and heard by the singer. In large concert
formats, this chemistry is heavily diluted but is still in evidence
unless the hall is of the (disappointingly common) kind where the
singer is separated from the audience by a large gap and can't really
see them.
I don't think recordings lack anything beyond the experience of this
chemistry. As AKK recordings go, all this stuff is good, but some of
my favourites are his Jhinjhoti (piyaa bina naahii aavat chain), Pilu
(soch samajh naadan), and of course the Sarparda Bilawal (gopaalaa
morii karuNaa).
> You must Poona badly, HCM-wise... But then Chennai is the hotbed of
> CCM. Do
> you attend CCM concerts there ? Any thoughts on such?
I attend CCM concerts only rarely, and most often am just accompanying
my wife. I know little of it (not that I know very much about HCM!)
and am perplexed by oddities like the long violin interludes that I
find jarring. My favourites in CCM were people who I gather are not
held in very high regard by CCM connoisseurs: Maharajapuram Santhanam,
MSS, MLV, Aruna Sayeeram...
My other problem with CCM concerts is audience behaviour. In the
sabhas of Chennai, the audience seems to think it is perfectly alright
to walk in and out as they please, chat among themselves, and - worst
of all - sing or hum along with the performer!
Just to round off the listening picture: other than classical music, I
listen to a lot semi-classical music, ghazals, Hindi film songs, and
Marathi songs. In all these spheres, I *vastly* prefer the recorded
music over any live performances, since I can't stand most of the
current practitioners of these forms!
Warm regards,
Abhay
bnadig
> I don't know, for sure. Please enunciate.
It was an exquisite review of a HCM concert... I wish I could tell you
more... I would beg the guy to respond to this thread...
>
> We are 4-5 rasikas here in my town. Everybody knows music at least to
> an extent. Nobody has a strong (missionary type) bias. We usually
> arrange listening sessions once in a month. We listen to an hour of
> music. After the session, we talk about it. We share our feelings. It
> touches our soul when a friend also shares the same feeling.
>
Must say you're lucky to have found a group like-minded rasikas... My
wife, who has training in CCM as well as HCM, often accuses me of
'imagining' more than what is there in music... Do you think it's
possible to 'hear' more than what is 'intrinsic' to it?
> Of course yes! [From a few days Madhup Mudgal's Chhayanat is haunting
> me like the face of the beloved.]
>
Ah, so well said...
> Regards,
> VS
Ahmad
Hello Balu Nadig, I have been listening to Indian music for some 60
years and am happy to share my experience of this music with you.
I started listening going to cinema and listening to film music from
the age of about 9 years. Vocal music then was my choice, and after
listening to singers such as Suraiya and Noorjehan, I was lucky to
move on within a couple oyears to better singers from the New Theatres
era such as Pankaj Mallick, Kanan Devi and Saigal and other good
singers.
I first listened to good singers on my grand father's gramophone and
his 78 RPM record collection at the age of 9 years. It was Kamla
Jharia from Calcutta area. At that time I thought she sounded bizarre
compared to the likes of Suraiya and Noorjehan with their sweet
voices. After listening and collecting records of the NewTheatres era
from secondhand record shops and after extensive listening I came
across Kamla Jhari, and realised what a great singer she was.
I then started collecting her records which were hard to find.
I have enjoyed some classical music from the singers mentioned bby
others on this thread. I have no classical music training and can not
tell the difference from a Thumri and a Dadra, but I don't think this
reduces listening pleasure !
My view is that there are a few singers who can retain my interest
beyond 15 minutes. I am familiar with the names of the singers
mentioned on this thread an Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Birkat Ali Khan,
Purween Sultana are among them.
In 1965 I got interested in to Sol Instrumental music; Tabla, Shenai
by Bismillah Khan was of interest to me. I attended a few of these
recitals in UK where I have lived since 1961. I attended one by
Purween Sultana and Bismillah Khan which was a good experience as they
could still perform before old age took its toll.
Sadly we get singers on tour in the west when they are well past their
best and are just living on the past reputation; so recordings and
especiall early ones are the best source of good music.
A few more names of good singers mostly from 1935-1955 which was the
golden era in my opinion. Indoobala, Angoorbala, Saigal and Begum
Akhtar (Akhtari Bai), are among those I listen to and some playback
singers such as Lata, Asha, Kishore Kumar, Talat Mahmood and many
others. I have found that Indian and other music deteriorated after
1958 with some exceptions.
So her is an extempore short summary which is in no way complete.
My other interests are Opera and among musical Instruments I regard
Church Organ as king of all instruments and the repertoire from German
composers is huge.
Regards
M Ahmad
sanjeev.r...@gmail.com
Not sure about where Aruna Sayeeram stands in this regard (she is of
course a more recent entrant), but I'm surprised at the assertion that
the others you name (mass popularity aside) are just plain not held in
high regard by CCM connoisseurs (a la the Pandit Jasraj-bashing that
regularly goes on here on RMIC). They may not be at the top of
everyone's list, but my sense is that they (MS, MSS, MLV) have earned
significant respect from a significant contingent of connoisseurs.
Sanjeev
Vivek Datar
heard people walking out when Thani starts, is that true? I have only
been to Hindustani concerts. You can be sure that there are equally bad
things people do during Hindustani concerts as well.
Generally accepted norm is that you should not walk out from middle of
concert, no chit-chat (although people often talk about raag, especially
if it not well known, but that is not a big problem). No cell phones
ringing. If you think you have to get out in the middle, then sit
outside, or if the concert hall is big enough, occupy last row.
Of course a lot of these are broken.
-Vivek
Ahmad
I agree, this kind of behaviour is very annoying , except to those
engaged in conversation/discussion. Your advice is very apt.
Ahmad
Sukesh
from an another.
Hindi Film Music
For me the paramount consideration is melody. If the a musical piece
is melodious, then it does not matter who the composer, singer,
lyricist is. Though I have my favourites (Mohammad Rafi, Shankar
Jaikishan, Madan Mohan, ..) among them, I do not prefer their work /
output just on account of being my favourites - the piece has to be
melodious to my ears. Primarily, I listen to Hindi Film Music of the
50s and 60s with a small number of them from earlier and later
periods.
Hindustani Classical Music.
I have been listening and enjoying HCM since 1979. I have over 200+
hours of HCM music of over 40 vocalists and instrumentalists. Among
them, my favourite is Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan. IMO, he stands head
and shoulders above the rest. His rendition of raag Bhoopali (for the
AIR's National Programme of Music) is par excellence and my all time
favourite. Other vocalists who I admire and listen to are Ustad Fateh
Ali Khan from Pakistan, Ustad Ameer Khan, Pandit D Paluskar, Shrimati
Kishori Amonkar and some others too. I have some recordings of
Prabhakar Karekar, which I like to listen too.
Long time ago, some time in early 1979, I had heard and recorded (also
from the AIR's National Programme of Music) Puranchand Gavaiya's
rendition of raag Jogiya - an absolute delight. I have not been to get
hold any other recording of his since then.
Some months back, I heard some young vocalists from Pune (on YouTube)
and I was impressed by them, I do not recall there names off-hand.
Among the instrumentalists, my first choice is Ustad Vilayat Khan,
followed Pandit Shiv Kumar Sharma, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan and Pandit
Nikhil Bannerjee. I do not care much about Pandit Ravi Shankar, whose
music one of my friends had referred to as Tourist Music.
Other Music.
I have not paid much attention to Ghazals, as my knowledge of Urdu is
almost zero and the HFM of the 50s and 60s has had a share of Ghazals
and poetry, which I enjoy.
I haven't made any real effort to listen and develop an appreciation
of Carnatic Music, probably on account of the language. I have one
solitary musical piece by Dt. M L Vasanthakumari.
Sometimes I also listen to Marathi Bhav Geet too. I also like the
Western Music of the days gone by - Barbara Streisand, Tom Jones,
Englebert Humperdinck are some of the artistes that I like. Not much
into Jazz or Western Classical Music - though I have some recordings,
which I sometimes listen to.
For me, listening and enjoying music is a solitary experience. I do
not like to go to concerts and baithaks.
Regards
Sukesh
Imnot Apadmashri
breath of fresh air:
> I do not care much about Pandit Ravi Shankar, whose
> music one of my friends had referred to as Tourist Music.
Great term, that! Perhaps RS was the first "Tourist Musician", but
haven't later instrumentalists gone way ahead with the concept, if I
understand it at all?
> I have not paid much attention to Ghazals, as my knowledge of Urdu is
> almost zero ...
Apparently Begum Akhtar once said of Pune listeners "I like them
because they give ME daad. In Lucknow it is aimed at the shayar"!
(yahan daad mujhe milti hai. lucknow-main to mua shayar le jata hai).
> For me, listening and enjoying music is a solitary experience. I do
> not like to go to concerts and baithaks.
This is the masterpiece which made me respond! To each their own, of
course, but when I attend a concert these days I get the feeling that
a majority of listeners are far more used to recordings than to live
music. They are totally passive - they stretch out in their seats,
close their eyes and quietly listen. One almost feels when a raga
ends they will look around for the remote. Hey guys, there are people
on stage who would welcome some sign of having reached their
listeners.
Still, these are better than the ones who give daad at wrong times and/
or too loudly.
DG
bnadig
> On Oct 8, 7:05 pm, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Balu Nadig, I have been listening to Indian music for some 60
> years and am happy to share my experience of this music with you.
Thank you for responding...
> I have enjoyed some classical music from the singers mentioned bby
> others on this thread. I have no classical music training and can not
> tell the difference from a Thumri and a Dadra, but I don't think this
> reduces listening pleasure !
Entirely agree with you... Geet or Ghazal, Bhajan or Baul, Thumri or
Khayal - music is primal...
>
> In 1965 I got interested in to Sol Instrumental music; Tabla, Shenai
> by Bismillah Khan was of interest to me. I attended a few of these
> recitals in UK where I have lived since 1961. I attended one by
> Purween Sultana and Bismillah Khan which was a good experience as they
> could still perform before old age took its toll.
>
Fascinated by Bismillah's shehnai. Was that a Bismillah/Purween
Sultana Jugalbandhi you attended? How was it? Did you enjoy it? I once
attended a Bismillah/Dr. N. Rajam concert in Bombay - it was a doting
father and affectionate daughter kind of jugalbnadhi.. Khan Saheb's
son was hyper'bolic' on the tabla;-)
> Sadly we get singers on tour in the west when they are well past th
> best and are just living on the past reputation; so recordings and
> especiall early ones are the best source of good music.
> A few more names of good singers mostly from 1935-1955 which was the
> golden era in my opinion. Indoobala, Angoorbala, Saigal and Begum
> Akhtar (Akhtari Bai), are among those I listen to and some playback
> singers such as Lata, Asha, Kishore Kumar, Talat Mahmood and many
> others. I have found that Indian and other music deteriorated after
> 1958 with some exceptions.
>
Sadly, I haven't heard (of) Indoorbala and Angoorbala...
Unsucessfully searched youtube...:(
bnadig
> Someone mentioned that in Chennai people talk, eat etc. I have also
> heard people walking out when Thani starts, is that true? I have only
> been to Hindustani concerts. You can be sure that there are equally bad
> things people do during Hindustani concerts as well.
>
Why, walking out when the "Thani avartanam" starts was almost a
requirement in Bangalore;-)
bnadig
> First I must state that I cannot distinguish between one musical note
> from an another.
>
> Hindi Film Music
>
> For me the paramount consideration is melody. If the a musical piece
> is melodious, then it does not matter who the composer, singer,
> lyricist is. Though I have my favourites (Mohammad Rafi, Shankar
> Jaikishan, Madan Mohan, ..) among them, I do not prefer their work /
> output just on account of being my favourites - the piece has to be
> melodious to my ears. Primarily, I listen to Hindi Film Music of the
> 50s and 60s with a small number of them from earlier and later
> periods.
>
Agree with you 100% - melody is paramount and the ability of this
melody to 'move' you...
> Hindustani Classical Music.
>
> I have been listening and enjoying HCM since 1979. I have over 200+
> hours of HCM music of over 40 vocalists and instrumentalists. Among
> them, my favourite is Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan. IMO, he stands head
> and shoulders above the rest. His rendition of raag Bhoopali (for the
> AIR's National Programme of Music) is par excellence and my all time
> favourite. Other vocalists who I admire and listen to are Ustad Fateh
> Ali Khan from Pakistan, Ustad Ameer Khan, Pandit D Paluskar, Shrimati
> Kishori Amonkar and some others too. I have some recordings of
> Prabhakar Karekar, which I like to listen too.
Years ago, I sang, ahem, a Gurjari Todi composition at a TIFR
party;-), which is when my friend Dr. Mohanty forced me to listen to
BJ's Kalashree... That, I must say was the 'defining moment' in my
listening experience... For days after that, I couldn't stop humming
it... I have a very vivid recollection of that wonderful moment!
> Other Music.
>
> I have not paid much attention to Ghazals, as my knowledge of Urdu is
> almost zero and the HFM of the 50s and 60s has had a share of Ghazals
> and poetry, which I enjoy.
>
> I haven't made any real effort to listen and develop an appreciation
> of Carnatic Music, probably on account of the language. I have one
> solitary musical piece by Dt. M L Vasanthakumari.
>
> Sometimes I also listen to Marathi Bhav Geet too. I also like the
> Western Music of the days gone by - Barbara Streisand, Tom Jones,
> Englebert Humperdinck are some of the artistes that I like. Not much
> into Jazz or Western Classical Music - though I have some recordings,
> which I sometimes listen to.
>
Invariably, I pay no attention to the lyrics and I am thus able to
listen and enjoy Dogri, Urdu, Gujarati, Marwari, Bengali, Odissi songs
just as well as I am able to listen/enjoy classical vocal and
instrumental music...
> For me, listening and enjoying music is a solitary experience. I do
> not like to go to concerts and baithaks.
>
Very true - listening is a personal experience...
> Regards
> Sukesh
Havanur
people do during Hindustani concerts as well.
>
> Why, walking out when the "Thani avartanam" starts was almost a
> requirement in Bangalore;-)
>
I have heard that once Palghat Mani Iyer got so ... if you will pardon
the expression... pissed off that he chastised the audience " Is that
why you think I am playing this?! To provide some time out so you can
go and relieve yourself? Is that all my music induces in you?" Must
have been some real juicy stuff in pure Tamil. In the end he swore
never to play in that town again.
Havanur
Vinayak
Questions and answers both.
I have answers for only 2 questions:
What: Quite a lot in Vocal from Hindustani and Carnatic to western
classical to Thumris to Old Hindi Film Music and some Natya
Sangeet...mostly Marathi but some very good Telugu and Kannada
although I do not know BOTH the languages.
Even some Illyraja although do not know a word of Tamil.
Some Geeta Dutt and Hemant Kumar Private songs,again know only 4/5
words of Bangla
How:
CDs /LapTop/Cassette recorder in the car/record player at home.
Why:
I thought of many answers, could not come up with short answers, even
the LONG answer that I thought of was here and there...so....don't
know.
Vinayak
bnadig
> from an another.
>
>
> Hindustani Classical Music.
>
> Some months back, I heard some young vocalists from Pune (on YouTube)
> and I was impressed by them, I do not recall there names off-hand.
>
Pushkar Lele, perhaps?
> Regards
> Sukesh
Sukesh
wrote:
> On Oct 13, 12:47 pm, Sukesh <sukesh_hoo...@yahoo.co.in> blew in like a
> breath of fresh air:
>
> > I do not care much about Pandit Ravi Shankar, whose
> > music one of my friends had referred to as Tourist Music.
>
> Great term, that! Perhaps RS was the first "Tourist Musician", but
> haven't later instrumentalists gone way ahead with the concept, if I
> understand it at all?
> > I have not paid much attention to Ghazals, as my knowledge of Urdu is
> > almost zero ...
>
> Apparently Begum Akhtar once said of Pune listeners "I like them
> because they give ME daad. In Lucknow it is aimed at the shayar"!
> (yahan daad mujhe milti hai. lucknow-main to mua shayar le jata hai).
I liked that phrase ' muaa shaayar'
> > For me, listening and enjoying music is a solitary experience. I do
> > not like to go to concerts and baithaks.
>
> This is the masterpiece which made me respond! To each their own, of
> course, but when I attend a concert these days I get the feeling that
> a majority of listeners are far more used to recordings than to live
> music. They are totally passive - they stretch out in their seats,
> close their eyes and quietly listen. One almost feels when a raga
> ends they will look around for the remote. Hey guys, there are people
> on stage who would welcome some sign of having reached their
> listeners.
> Still, these are better than the ones who give daad at wrong times and/
> or too loudly.
> DG
And so many people would probably be at such concerts only to be seen
and be counted among the connoisseurs.
One of the reasons I do not particularly like to go to concerts
besides irritants mentioned by you and others, is that I may not be in
mood to listen to music at the appointed time on the appointed date.
Many years in an interview, Pandit Jasraj had mentioned that at one of
his concerts in Southern Maharashtra, one old gentleman in a torn coat
sitting in the aisle, who could have been mistaken for a beggar, said
'waah' at the right moment. Panditji sang only for that gentleman that
evening.
Regards
Sukesh
Sukesh
That is where Hindi Film Music comes in. This genre of music has made
use of music and instruments from all the regions of the country as
well as from overseas and from various cultures / religions adapting
them to the basic song-and-dance narratives of our films. The result -
a very large and rich bouquet of melodies, covering every aspect and
emotions of our existence. Language barrier do not count anymore. HFM
(and by extension Regional Film Music) is unique. No where in the rest
of the world has seen / heard anything like this, blending diverse
instruments and tunes, yet very Indian. Credit is due to the master
composers of yore - the less said about the current music the better.
> > For me, listening and enjoying music is a solitary experience. I do
> > not like to go to concerts and baithaks.
>
> Very true - listening is a personal experience...
>
> > Regards
> > Sukesh
Regards
Sukesh
bnadig
> I thought of many answers, could not come up with short answers, even
> the LONG answer that I thought of was here and there...so....don't
> know.
>
> Vinayak
>
Music that colors your imagination, touches your heart, stirs your
soul needs no purpose save the deepening of the spirit...
Warren
> On Oct 9, 9:57 pm, Vishwaroopa Sharma <vkr...@yahoo.in> wrote:
>
> > I don't know, for sure. Please enunciate.
>
> It was an exquisite review of a HCM concert... I wish I could tell you
> more... I would beg the guy to respond to this thread...
>
>
It is conceivable that you are referring to my 2006 review of the
Hopkinton
concert by Vivek Khadilkar & Purvi Vinchhi.
As far as the broader questions asked in this thread?
I enjoy listening to Mallikarjun Mansur, Gajananrao Joshi, Bhimsen,
the
various Dagars, Siya Ram Tewari in full cry. Most instrumental music
becomes backgrounded for me pretty easily. When I'm in the mood for
instrumentals it's usually because I have something else I need to do.
Recently I have been enjoying the 78 rpm recordings of Vazebua, and
Krishnarao Shankar Pandit invariably stuns me with his constant flow
of hyperbolic invention. I tend not to listen to a lot of film music,
but I
greatly enjoy Indian folk music and have a large collection which
includes
ethnomusicologically-organized material, locally produced lok-geet
cassettes, and my own field recordings (for example, see this post on
my
blog, "Running Gamak" - http://www.warrensenders.com/journal/?p=105).
I enjoy a lot of jazz: Mingus, Ornette Coleman, the Old & New Dreams
Band, Lester Young, Monk, Coltrane. The Uzbek pop singer Yulduz
Usmanova. I
greatly enjoy Indonesian music, especially material from the 20-cd set
of relatively unheard varieties compiled by Philip Yampolsky...and I
am also a big fan of George Jones, Ray Charles, Bobby "Blue" Bland,
Doc Watson, Pete Seeger, and Frank Sinatra.
While I am not a frequent listener to WCM I find Thomas Quasthoff's
performances of Schubert to be hauntingly beautiful both musically
and from the standpoint of vocal technique; Quasthoff is one of the
most extraordinary singers I have ever heard. He's also a good jazz
singer, unlike most WCM vocalists whose attempts at jazz are terribly
embarrassing.
The list goes on and on...but a lot of the time I don't listen to
music at all;
silence allows me to consider possibilities in my own mind. Often
I'm singing as I go about my day.
I don't tend to consider listening to music as a way to externalize
my own emotions. Each piece of music I love is a sort of "story,"
which I
can analyze and respond to in many different ways depending on how I'm
feeling and what I'm interested in. One day I may listen to Vazebua's
Khambavati
and focus on his layakari; on another day I may try and track his
melodic lines,
and on another day I may turn my perceptions to his pronunciation and
the particular
qualities he brings out in the vowels. And some days I just listen
and enjoy,
without a thought of content — listening, as it were, for qualities
rather than
attributes.
Warren
Havanur
> On Oct 13, 1:16 am, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 9, 9:57 pm, Vishwaroopa Sharma <vkr...@yahoo.in> wrote:
>
> > > I don't know, for sure. Please enunciate.
>
> > It was an exquisite review of a HCM concert... I wish I could tell you
> > more... I would beg the guy to respond to this thread...
>
> It is conceivable that you are referring to my 2006 review of the
> Hopkinton
> concert by Vivek Khadilkar & Purvi Vinchhi.
>
>
If you are puzzled by the reference to dresses at the end ...
Havanur
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is absolutely NOT NECESSARY to have knowledge of ANY LANGUAGE so
far as film music is concerned.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read the above statement and re-read it to get acquainted with its
meaning. And thats very important to make any progress.
jay
16/x
UVR
>
> It is absolutely NOT NECESSARY to have knowledge of ANY LANGUAGE so
> far as film music is concerned.
>
>
> 16/x
It's not necessary, but it helps. Think of it this way -- if you
don't know the language, you cannot appreciate the song in its
entirety. The lyric, which is an integral part of the song, will
completely pass you by.
It may help to think of a film song as a piece of visual art -- a
photograph, say. It is absolutely not necessary to know anything
about cameras, about lenses, about apertures and exposures, about
light and shade, about the subject, and so on, to appreciate, enjoy
and even be enthralled by a photograph. But, if you know all these
things, you may well derive a different set of experiences from
looking at the same photograph. Simple example: you will always look
differently at a photograph of your dear departed grandfather taken in
a studio as compared to a photograph of your neighbor's wife taken
against the ocean as the wind blows her hair onto her face! ;-)
It's not absolutely not necessary to understand the lyric in order to
appreciate, enjoy or even be enthralled by a film song, but if you do
understand the lyric, you may derive a different type of experience.
For example, you may marvel at the beauty at which the music director
has fit the words to the tune, or you may wonder at the finesse with
which the lyricist fit words to a pre-composed tune. You may stand
stupefied at the tiny little nuances that the singer (e.g., Lata) used
while pronouncing the words which infused the words with a wholly new
meaning. For example, it's a rare day when I think I've gotten enough
of Lata saying "hum" in "rahein na rahein hum".
-UVR.
bnadig
> No, I listen to both CCM and HCM. It's because of Hindi film songs and
> bhajans that I was inspired to learn HCM, only for two years though. I
> did not put in the right efforts to continue learning HCM. I still
> regret it. But I enjoy listening to the great masters in both the
> forms.
>
Yes, I grew up with plenty of CCM (my sisters learnt Veena & Bharat
Natyam) all around... Except for the magic of Mail's flute, the bhava
of Dr. BMK singing and crisp clarity of MSG's violin, the format of
CCM concerts (typically comprising of a long litany of 12/15 kritis, a
mandatory RTP and a thani avartanam) and the lack of leisurely
treatment of ragas found me gravitating to HCM fairly early in my
learning/listening foray... For some years, I learnt vocal HCM and
tabla from Pt. Seshadri Gavai in Bangalore... At some point, I seemed
to have transitioned from 'listening to learn' to 'learning to
listen'...
> No matter what the place is, I enjoy music when I am alone. Yes,
> discussing about music with others is wonderful, but the ecstasy that
> I reach when I am listening to music alone is something indescribable.
> At that point, it becomes a state of "bhava tanmayata". For example,
> when I listen to "Dekh chand ke or from Aag", the music creates
> effects of projection and dissolution of universe. On the other hand,
> "Malan layi chun chun" by Pt. Omkarnath brings in a pain of separation
> from my beloved, the Lord. Dr. BMK's "Ragasudha rasa" sends a wave of
> tranquility and timeless feeling in me.
>
I can relate to this quite well...
> Oh yes, as you said I have just seen the tip of the iceberg. There are
> countless masters of this divine knowledge, each a projection of that
> fountainhead of all knowledge, the Brahman himself.
>
Yes, It is a sublime, 'SPIRIT'ual (as opposed to religious)
experience...
> As you know, there's a rag for every possible emotion in our
> tradition. I know only a handful of them, and those have got
> registered. That's how those spring up from my sub-conscience to
> resonate with my thoughts and emotions. Those todi taans by Pt.
> Omkarnath seem to be as if I am bringing out an eternity of pathos
> from deep within me.
>
You must make a very deep and perceptive listener... Happy
listening...
Regards
Balu
Ahmad
Hello B N, The Bismillah Shenai recital was around 1970 in R Festival
Halll in London and although a big hall it was full.
The Purween Sultana recital with another male singer was around 1980 I
think in Queen Elizabeth Hall and I was lucky to be in the front row
and could almost hear her breathing ; both these halls do not use
amplification.
I should add the name of Jutheeka Roy as one of my favourite singers
who followed Kamla Jharia as her successor as the great Bhajan singer,
and she also sang some naats.
For Indoobala/Indubala, Angoorbala/Angurbala, here is a good web site
by, Dr Sanjeev Patke, which has a good examples of 78 RPM records by
great singers
http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/ellpatke/Miscellany/music.htm
Regards
MA
bnadig
> The Purween Sultana recital with another male singer was around 1980 I
Male singer was possibly her husband, Md. Dilshad Khan...
> I should add the name of Jutheeka Roy as one of my favourite singers
> who followed Kamla Jharia as her successor as the great Bhajan singer,
> and she also sang some naats.
Have heard their names - will try to listen to their singing...
> http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/ellpatke/Miscellany/music.htm
Many thnaks for the link.
Regards
Balu
bnadig
> On Oct 13, 1:16 am, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 9, 9:57 pm, Vishwaroopa Sharma <vkr...@yahoo.in> wrote:
>
> > > I don't know, for sure. Please enunciate.
>
> > It was an exquisite review of a HCM concert... I wish I could tell you
> > more... I would beg the guy to respond to this thread...
>
> It is conceivable that you are referring to my 2006 review of the
> Hopkinton
> concert by Vivek Khadilkar & Purvi Vinchhi.
>
>
I don't how I missed that review, BostonBuwa, but it is what I would
call 'a review as good as the concert'. It's mature, measured and
masterful, offering many insights as in "the relaxed inward focus of a
"swar-yogi" like Amir Khan", or "virtuosity is contextualized by the
music" or "with pleasing rhythmic variations and a nice balance of
bol-alap and bol-taan" or "improvisations were organic, coherent and
forward-moving" or "accompaniment exemplifies the idea that good
melodic sangat is the highest form of daad"... With a review like
that, one can almost reconstruct the concert!
> As far as the broader questions asked in this thread?
>
> I enjoy listening to Mallikarjun Mansur, Gajananrao Joshi, Bhimsen,
> the
> various Dagars, Siya Ram Tewari in full cry. Most instrumental music
> becomes backgrounded for me pretty easily. When I'm in the mood for
> instrumentals it's usually because I have something else I need to do.
> Recently I have been enjoying the 78 rpm recordings of Vazebua, and
> Krishnarao Shankar Pandit invariably stuns me with his constant flow
> of hyperbolic invention. I tend not to listen to a lot of film music,
> but I
> greatly enjoy Indian folk music and have a large collection which
> includes
> ethnomusicologically-organized material, locally produced lok-geet
> cassettes, and my own field recordings (for example, see this post on
> my
> blog, "Running Gamak" -http://www.warrensenders.com/journal/?p=105).
>
> I enjoy a lot of jazz: Mingus, Ornette Coleman, the Old & New Dreams
> Band, Lester Young, Monk, Coltrane. The Uzbek pop singer Yulduz
> Usmanova. I
> greatly enjoy Indonesian music, especially material from the 20-cd set
> of relatively unheard varieties compiled by Philip Yampolsky...and I
> am also a big fan of George Jones, Ray Charles, Bobby "Blue" Bland,
> Doc Watson, Pete Seeger, and Frank Sinatra.
>
There are many pointers and recommendations here for me...
> The list goes on and on...but a lot of the time I don't listen to
> music at all;
> silence allows me to consider possibilities in my own mind. Often
> I'm singing as I go about my day.
>
Yes, Stillness Speaks and Silence Sings...
> I don't tend to consider listening to music as a way to externalize
> my own emotions. Each piece of music I love is a sort of "story,"
> which I
> can analyze and respond to in many different ways depending on how I'm
> feeling and what I'm interested in. One day I may listen to Vazebua's
> Khambavati
> and focus on his layakari; on another day I may try and track his
> melodic lines,
> and on another day I may turn my perceptions to his pronunciation and
> the particular
> qualities he brings out in the vowels. And some days I just listen
> and enjoy,
> without a thought of content — listening, as it were, for qualities
> rather than
> attributes.
>
> Warren
So true...listening can be enriching:)))
Regards
Balu
Warren
> On Oct 15, 12:56 am, Warren <war...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 13, 1:16 am, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 9, 9:57 pm, Vishwaroopa Sharma <vkr...@yahoo.in> wrote:
>
> > > > I don't know, for sure. Please enunciate.
>
> > > It was an exquisite review of a HCM concert... I wish I could tell you
> > > more... I would beg the guy to respond to this thread...
>
> > It is conceivable that you are referring to my 2006 review of the
> > Hopkinton
> > concert by Vivek Khadilkar & Purvi Vinchhi.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.indian.classical/browse_thre...
>
> I don't how I missed that review, BostonBuwa, but it is what I would
> call 'a review as good as the concert'. It's mature, measured and
> masterful, offering many insights as in "the relaxed inward focus of a
> "swar-yogi" like Amir Khan", or "virtuosity is contextualized by the
> music" or "with pleasing rhythmic variations and a nice balance of
> bol-alap and bol-taan" or "improvisations were organic, coherent and
> forward-moving" or "accompaniment exemplifies the idea that good
> melodic sangat is the highest form of daad"... With a review like
> that, one can almost reconstruct the concert!
>
>
Thanks for the compliment! BTW, I mis-dated the concert in my earlier
post;
it was of course in 2003.
WS
Warren
Rajeev Patke, not Sanjeev.
WS
bnadig
> It's not necessary, but it helps. Think of it this way -- if you
> don't know the language, you cannot appreciate the song in its
> entirety. The lyric, which is an integral part of the song, will
> completely pass you by.
> ...
> which the lyricist fit words to a pre-composed tune. You may stand
> stupefied at the tiny little nuances that the singer (e.g., Lata) used
> while pronouncing the words which infused the words with a wholly new
> meaning. For example, it's a rare day when I think I've gotten enough
> of Lata saying "hum" in "rahein na rahein hum".
>
> -UVR.
Hi UVR:
Invariably I find myself not paying attention to lyrics, even when it
is in languages that I know and understand... I have heard it many
times from my wife "wish you paid attention to the lyrics, you would
enjoy it so much more"... When I listen to, say, Shobha Gurtu's "Maro
Rang Rangeelo Rajasthan", I don't claim to understand any of it and
yet, I feel like I am an integral part of the song and Rajasthan....
How have I missed 'appreciating the song in its entirety'? I have
long list of songs falling in that category...
I think I know what you mean when you refer to "hum" in Lata's "rahein
na rahein hum"... I can even come up with some examples... Yet, let me
ask you this - if Lata were to, say mispronouce "hum" , in the said
sweet song, would you enjoy it less?
Regards
Balu
bnadig
It's indeed a delight to read your 'learned' writings on music...
Regards
Balu
Ahmad
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, sorry, a typing error, I had just visited his web site again. I
also know Dr,Rajeev as we had exchanged some music in the past.
Regards
MA
Ahmad
I agree with what you have said and also with UVR. A lot of classical
singing has lyrics of not great quality; it is the singer displaying
his/her art.
I also enjoy greatly Bengali songs although I do not understand a word
of Bengali.
When it comes to Ghazals and other good lyrics, things are different
and understanding the lyrics and how good the pronounciation of the
singer is does matter in my opinion as UVR suggests, and photography
is a good example as this is my hobby as well. However not knowing a
language should not mean not enjoying singing from good singers from
an alien language. When I heard Um Kulsoum for the first time, I knew
I was listening to somebody exceptional, and the same goes for Opera.
Regards
MA
UVR
Allow me to take your queries last-to-first:
(a) Yes, it would interfere with my enjoyment of a song if its words
were mispronounced, in songs where the words are there for a reason.
For example, if someone sang the Lata song as "rahein na rahein BUM",
it would bother me.
(b) I find that most people who claim to not pay attention to the
lyrics actually do, subconciously. For instance, you feel an integral
part of Rajasthan upon listening only to the music and 'sounds' of
"mhaaro rangeelo rajasthaan", without understanding the words of the
song. But let's flip the situation on its head and say Ms. Gurtu sang
the song with the same tune but used the words "o maaiy kalarphull
rajasthaan" (sung in full "desi" accent). Sitting here, can you truly
and truthfully say that you'd derive the SAME enjoyment as you did
when you heard the song sung with its original lyric? If yes, you are
a far better man than me! I suspect, however, that the experience you
derive from the song NOW is predicated on your NOT understanding the
words. In other words, language comprehension can enhance as well as
undercut the experience one derives from a given song.
(c) There is certainly a class of "songs" where the lyrics are
incidental to the music. HCM bandishes tend mostly to fall in that
category, as do some CCM compositions.
-UVR.
Manohar
Well let me tell you something. There is a Gazal : Saail se khafa hain
mere pyare nahi hote.
I have heard one singer singing Saahil se. So I talked to the artist.
She told me she learnt this Gazal from a cassette sung by Shobha
Gurtu. And to my horror the title on the Cassette says Sahil se. How
ever Shobhaji sings it as Saail se.
Also I have heard some singing a line as: Jub tak meele mohabbat ka
khayal aata hai since the word taqmeele e mahobbat is unknown to
singer.
Same way ba ise tar ke mahobbat ka bharosa bhi nahi. in place of tarq
e mahobbat.
M
Imnot Apadmashri
examples of urdu liricassination.
And in proper classical singing there is paglaa gun de, not to mention
"tata vitata ghana shikhara". I am sure CCM fans have their own
examples. But where does all that lead us to?
DG
Abhishek
wrote:
There's always 'Gunde Laao Ri' for us UPites who want some
contemporary context in their HCM...
UVR
wrote:
One CCM example I'm fond of quoting is "saraguna
paalimpa" (Kedaragowla) which everyone and their dog sings as
"saraguNa p.", replacing the correct 'n' with the incorrect 'retroflex
Na', rendering the phrase utterly meaningless.
Where does this lead us? -- nowhere we have not gone before. I think
the point being made is that it dilutes the listening experience (for
at least one particular section of "original listeners").
-UVR.
bnadig
> On Oct 16, 8:55 pm, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (a) Yes, it would interfere with my enjoyment of a song if its words
> were mispronounced, in songs where the words are there for a reason.
> For example, if someone sang the Lata song as "rahein na rahein BUM",
> it would bother me.
>
A 'bum' instead of 'hum' would bum me out too;-) But, what I had in
mind was, say, a 'hum', in Bengali or South Indian accent..
> (b) I find that most people who claim to not pay attention to the
> lyrics actually do, subconciously. For instance, you feel an integral
> part of Rajasthan upon listening only to the music and 'sounds' of
> "mhaaro rangeelo rajasthaan", without understanding the words of the
> song. But let's flip the situation on its head and say Ms. Gurtu sang
> the song with the same tune but used the words "o maaiy kalarphull
> rajasthaan" (sung in full "desi" accent). Sitting here, can you truly
> and truthfully say that you'd derive the SAME enjoyment as you did
> when you heard the song sung with its original lyric? If yes, you are
> a far better man than me! I suspect, however, that the experience you
> derive from the song NOW is predicated on your NOT understanding the
> words. In other words, language comprehension can enhance as well as
> undercut the experience one derives from a given song.
>
Talking about 'kalarphull' in 'desi accent', have you tried the recent
lyrical marvel 'Y2 Y2 face.oo';-) ? Seriously, a 'maro' instead of the
correct(ed) 'mhaaro' in the said Shobha Gurtu's song is not going to
ruin my listening sensibilities...
When there is some beautiful music at play, I have no need for
words.. And, I gladly and gleefully confess to having paid attention
to the lyrics of, about 6 to 10 songs, in all of the 25 plus years of
my listening :( It's as if my word and language processors are turned
off...
None of this has got anything to do with one-up-'man'-ship of any
kind, let me assure you... I am just trying to be a better 'lyrics'
listener', if I could...
> (c) There is certainly a class of "songs" where the lyrics are
> incidental to the music. HCM bandishes tend mostly to fall in that
> category, as do some CCM compositions.
>
And there is Sitar, Sarangi, Sarod, Shehnai, Santoor, Veena, Violin et
al...
> -UVR.
UVR
> On Oct 19, 11:42 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 16, 8:55 pm, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...
> > (a) Yes, it would interfere with my enjoyment of a song if its words
> > were mispronounced, in songs where the words are there for a reason.
> > For example, if someone sang the Lata song as "rahein na rahein BUM",
> > it would bother me.
>
> A 'bum' instead of 'hum' would bum me out too;-) But, what I had in
> mind was, say, a 'hum', in Bengali or South Indian accent..
>
Let's see ... would you be annoyed if someone purporting to sing Yaman
randomly threw in a komal re every now and then into it?
The point I was making is that there is a certain segment of the
listening public to which lyrics are important. Oh sure, Bhimsen
Joshi can sing his Pune address in Marwa if he wants and in Todi and
in every conceivable other raaga. BJ's is not the kind of music where
lyrics are important. But when Lata or Mehdi Hassan are singing a
Ghalib Ghazal or Meera Bhajan, the words are important (to some).
It's got nothing to do with one-upmanship from my side either. I was
just responding to Jay's post about language having NOTHING to do with
appreciationg of FILM music. That is a thoroughly indefensible
position to take, in my opinion.
> > (c) There is certainly a class of "songs" where the lyrics are
> > incidental to the music. HCM bandishes tend mostly to fall in that
> > category, as do some CCM compositions.
>
> And there is Sitar, Sarangi, Sarod, Shehnai, Santoor, Veena, Violin et
> al...
Yes, there is. And one of the main things these instruments can't do
that vocal musicians can -- pronounce words. In some genres of music,
that's a critical distinction.
-UVR.
Imnot Apadmashri
> It's got nothing to do with one-upmanship from my side either. I was
> just responding to Jay's post about language having NOTHING to do with
> appreciationg of FILM music. That is a thoroughly indefensible
> position to take, in my opinion.
There are hoardes of ABCDs dancing away to HFM without (most of them,
at least) knowing enough Hindi to appreciate lyrics. There are many
ways to enjoy (any kind of) music and to ask someone to defend their
way is absurd. See Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by
Douglas R. Hofstadter for an extreme example.
DG
UVR
wrote:
Is it your claim that the ABCDs are "appreciating" the music (of the
film songs they are dancing to)? If someone said that he listens to
Ustad Amir Khan recordings to appreciate the drone of the tanpura only
and (in his opinion) the actual ragas the Khansahib sang have NOTHING
TO DO with the enjoyment of Khansahib's music, what would your
response be?
Yes, lyrics are as central to film songs as a tanpura drone is to
HCM. That some X person does not pay attention [to it] doesn't make
it immaterial.
-UVR.
bnadig
> On Oct 21, 11:26 am, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 19, 11:42 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 16, 8:55 pm, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ...
> > > (a) Yes, it would interfere with my enjoyment of a song if its words
> > > were mispronounced, in songs where the words are there for a reason.
> > > For example, if someone sang the Lata song as "rahein na rahein BUM",
> > > it would bother me.
>
> > A 'bum' instead of 'hum' would bum me out too;-) But, what I had in
> > mind was, say, a 'hum', in Bengali or South Indian accent..
>
> Let's see ... would you be annoyed if someone purporting to sing Yaman
> randomly threw in a komal re every now and then into it?
>
>
I think I see you your viewpoint. Here is a retort I heard from a
friend, quoting Kalidasa's Raghuvamsam:
"vAgarthAviva sampRktau vAgartha pratipattayE |
jagata: pitarau vandE pArvatI paramESvarau ||
Quite convincing I must say...
You must make an avid and ardent listener of a variety of music. Here
is a request - could you possibly point me to 5 songs that best
exemplifies your passion. I would like to explore them from their
lyrical/musical perspective, in a bid gain better insight?
Do you listen to music in languages that you don't comprehend - say
Lata's Dogri geet 'Tu Malla' or her Gujarati 'Ek Rajkan' or her many
Marathi abhangs or Bhupen Hazarika's 'Bistirno Duparer'...) ? If you
do, how do you contend with lyrics in such cases?
> > > (c) There is certainly a class of "songs" where the lyrics are
> > > incidental to the music. HCM bandishes tend mostly to fall in that
> > > category, as do some CCM compositions.
>
> > And there is Sitar, Sarangi, Sarod, Shehnai, Santoor, Veena, Violin et
> > al...
>
> Yes, there is. And one of the main things these instruments can't do
> that vocal musicians can -- pronounce words. In some genres of music,
> that's a critical distinction.
>
Given my proclivities, instrumental HCM (bansuri, flute, sitar,
sarangi, sarod) plays a huge role...
Who are your favorite vocalists ? Wish you would respond to my
'original lsitener' thread queries...
Regards
Balu
> -UVR.
bnadig
> On Oct 17, 4:55 am, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> of Bengali.
I immensely love Hemant Kumar, Sachin Burman and Lata's songs in
Bengali. Would you like to share many others that you might know?
> When it comes to Ghazals and other good lyrics, things are different
> and understanding the lyrics and how good the pronounciation of the
> singer is does matter in my opinion as UVR suggests, and photography
> is a good example as this is my hobby as well. However not knowing a
> language should not mean not enjoying singing from good singers from
> an alien language. When I heard Um Kulsoum for the first time, I knew
> I was listening to somebody exceptional, and the same goes for Opera.
>
Thanks for pointing out Um Kulsoum. I find her singing soulful and
fascinating. I need to listen to more of her music...
I find Abida Parveen's 'Gul Hui' exceptional. Farida Khannum, Nayyara
Noor, Noor Jehan.are some of my other favorites... Here again, you
must know many more wonderful singers...
Regards
Balu
Suvrat Dev Sharman
> On Oct 13, 1:16 am, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 9, 9:57 pm, Vishwaroopa Sharma <vkr...@yahoo.in> wrote:
>
> > > I don't know, for sure. Please enunciate.
>
> > It was an exquisite review of a HCM concert... I wish I could tell you
> > more... I would beg the guy to respond to this thread...
>
> It is conceivable that you are referring to my 2006 review of the
> Hopkinton
> concert by Vivek Khadilkar & Purvi Vinchhi.
>
>
> As far as the broader questions asked in this thread?
>
> I enjoy listening to Mallikarjun Mansur, Gajananrao Joshi, Bhimsen,
> the
> various Dagars, Siya Ram Tewari in full cry. Most instrumental music
> becomes backgrounded for me pretty easily. When I'm in the mood for
> instrumentals it's usually because I have something else I need to do.
> Recently I have been enjoying the 78 rpm recordings of Vazebua, and
> Krishnarao Shankar Pandit invariably stuns me with his constant flow
> of hyperbolic invention. I tend not to listen to a lot of film music,
> but I
> greatly enjoy Indian folk music and have a large collection which
> includes
> ethnomusicologically-organized material, locally produced lok-geet
> cassettes, and my own field recordings (for example, see this post on
> my
Dear Warren,
I saw your blog in which you had mentioned about Vazbua and was happy
that
you like his music. I am the student of Vazebua's last disciple Pdt
Bhaskarbua Joshi. I live in Pune, India. Bhaskarbua has taught me
several
rare compositions that Vazebua himself, his extremely talented son
Shivrambua, and disciple Dinkar Phatak had taught him.
In fact, Krishnarao Shankar Pandit's father Shankar Pandit and Vzebua
learnt
Abhay
(snip)
> My other problem with CCM concerts is audience behaviour. In the
> sabhas of Chennai, the audience seems to think it is perfectly alright
> to walk in and out as they please, chat among themselves, and - worst
> of all - sing or hum along with the performer!
Went to Narada Gana Sabha at Chennai on 04 November to hear Arati
Ankalikar sing (Chennai had a burst of Hindustani music suddenly -
Venkatesh Kumar, Ashwini Bhide, Arati, Amjad Ali...) and again
discovered just how badly behaved Chennai audiences can be! Even
though the concert started over half an hour after the scheduled time,
people kept walking in and out all the time. The later arrivals would
shuffle along rows at their own pace, the most irritating ones being
those who would move halfway into a row, suddenly sight friends/family
sitting elsewhere, and back out all along that row and then shuffle in
along the other one. The ubiquitous Mrs Y G Parthasarathy walked in
halfway through the first raaga (Madhuvanti) and had a slow and chatty
journey to her seat in the middle of the first row, where she was then
greeted at length by several artistes and other "listeners" - never
mind that all this is right under the performer's nose in the midst of
her performance!
A group arrived from the rear entrance in the final stages of the
first raaga, decided they wanted to sit in the front rows, and had a
loud and long discussion with the usher right there in the aisle,
following which he removed a wooden barrier in the aisle to let them
pass through and then noisily replaced the barrier. The second raaga
(Puriya Dhanashri) featured a mobile phone ringing loudly; after 4
rings, it was answered by a man sitting a few seats across the aisle
from us who then proceeded to have a conversation that was not exactly
sotto voce, completely oblivious to the dirty looks he was receiving
from quite a few of us.
While the concert slated for 5 pm started well past 5:30 pm, it still
concluded at 7 pm as scheduled, perhaps because the next concert (a
harikatha performance) could not be delayed. This resulted in a rather
truncated concert. It was still enjoyable, but how much more enjoyable
it would have been had both the organisers and the audience followed
basic decorum!
Warm regards,
Abhay
Imnot Apadmashri
> The ubiquitous Mrs Y G Parthasarathy walked in...
How interesting that one of the most indisciplined persons is a
schoolmistress!
DG
Jayanthi Nadig
wrote:
Ubiquitous, they certainly are - from the sabhas of Chennai to
auditoriums of Pomona and Pittsburgh, these 'off-stage performers'
manifest themselves in many ways... Here is a recent example:
This lady, sitting next to me, with a kid on her lap, would announce
the ragam, talam, krithi and composer seconds after the artists
(Bombay Sisters, in this case) began their rendition... And for all of
the 15 or so renditions.. Some compulsory assertion of erudition;-) It
must teach the kid what to do when he/she is on her own :-)
Havanur
> This lady, sitting next to me, with a kid on her lap, would announce
> the ragam, talam, krithi and composer seconds after the artists
> (Bombay Sisters, in this case) began their rendition... And for all of
> the 15 or so renditions.. Some compulsory assertion of erudition;-) It
> must teach the kid what to do when he/she is on her own :-)
There was this loudmouth sitting at the back and talking non stop
about trivia, musical and otherwise in a Bhimsen Joshi concert at
Bangalore Gayan Sabha. Someone tried to shhhhhh him but it worked only
for a few minutes and so we all suffered through alap, and vistar. BJ
was in his element which made it a little easy to ignore the chatter.
After antara he launched into some spirited taankari and our loudmouth
was suddenly transformed into a know all rasika. There were loud vah
vahs and appreciating sounds in Kannada at regular intervals. After a
particularly blistering taan he blurted "Hear that? What a voice.
Ahahhahhha!" And after a couple of seconds " Simha nada! simha nada!!
This must be Darbari Kanada" It was a little late in the afternoon and
BJ had started with Multani (It wasn't announced of course)
And you complain about someone (correctly) calling out krithi
details????
Havanur
bnadig
> On Nov 7, 9:48 pm, Jayanthi Nadig <jabas...@gmail.com> complained:
>
> about trivia, musical and otherwise in a Bhimsen Joshi concert at
> Bangalore Gayan Sabha. Someone tried to shhhhhh him but it worked only
> for a few minutes and so we all suffered through alap, and vistar. BJ
> was in his element which made it a little easy to ignore the chatter.
> After antara he launched into some spirited taankari and our loudmouth
> was suddenly transformed into a know all rasika. There were loud vah
> vahs and appreciating sounds in Kannada at regular intervals. After a
> particularly blistering taan he blurted "Hear that? What a voice.
> Ahahhahhha!" And after a couple of seconds " Simha nada! simha nada!!
> This must be Darbari Kanada" It was a little late in the afternoon and
> BJ had started with Multani (It wasn't announced of course)
>
> Havanur
"...Simha nada simha nada" is ringing in my ears:))) Next time I am
in Bangalore, I must make sure to meet this rasika maha-no-bhava to
learn the secrets of educing a Darbari Kanada out of a Multani ;-)
Sunil Dandekar
There are many lamentations about the listener's behavior in the XCM
concerts in this thread.
I was wondering, how far the listeners are to be blamed? Can it have
something to do with the performing artist failing to hold interest of
the audience?
Other possibility is there are few people who go to HCM/CCM concerts
to get brand reflection.
I have always found the XCM supremely boring, with repetitive
repetition and monotonous monotony. I avoid concerts like plague and
rely on recordings to try again and again to train my brain. I keep
telling it, it’s good for you. It’s good for my image. Let's do it.
How can I be taken seriously unless I can tell Marwa from whatever? If
I don’t like classical music, how can I be different from masses? I am
slowly giving up the effort. If it is boring for me, it’s boring. It
was interesting to read Manna Dey’s indifference towards this art
form.
For this time of the day, you sing this structure. The structure will
contain these notes. While going up the scale sing only these notes.
While coming down, sing only these notes. Spend major part of your
singing time on the specific notes. Stress the signature note group so
that the raga can be recognized by the people. Follow a pattern
Aalaap, jod, jhala.
How can an art form blossom under such restrictions? How can a
performer keep his audience captivated with variety under so many
restrictions?
I was trying to find parallels to XCM in other art forms and I found
none. As an exercise in absurdity try this:
Classical English writing: You can write anything as long as you
don't use s,m,u,g,p, j, and r if you are writing essay to be read in
the evenings, and yes you can’t use adverbs.
Classical sculpture: If the sculpture is to be put indoors, don’t use
a 2” chisel, and start from top-left and finish at the bottom-right.
History tells us that the institutions, languages, cultures, nations;
governed by cast iron constitutions don’t evolve. They shrivel and
die. At best they become anachronisms.
regards,
Sunil
Imnot Apadmashri
interesting set of rules for writing essays in English, which he feels
are somehow analogous to the rules of XCM (nice abstraction - worth
adopting).
I know an Indian physicist who declared "Indian physicists are
useless". Sunil, who finds XCM boring (therefore must be clueless
about it) takes it upon himself to tell us why XCM must be doomed.
Thank you for the intertainment, Sunil.
And hey, Sunil, stop punishing yourself already. Do whatever it is
that you find enjoyable, XCM will somehow survive without your help.
DG
Vijay
> none. As an exercise in absurdity try this:
> Classical English writing: You can write anything as long as you
> don't use s,m,u,g,p, j, and r if you are writing essay to be read in
> the evenings, and yes you can’t use adverbs.
Western Classical is no different; you can't veer too far off what the
classicists wrote. Nigel Kennedy, brilliant violinist, rebelled
against restrictions but fat load of good it has done for him.
To counter your analogy of literature: George Perec wrote a whole
novel without using the most commonly occurring vowel in French (and
in English), i.e. the vowel 'e'! It is also brilliantly translated
into English with the same restriction, i.e. no 'e'; never, not even
once.
What is even more fascinating is that he then went on to write a
follow-up novel, where he used words with only the vowel 'e'; didn't
use 'a', 'i', 'o' or 'u' even once in any of the words of this 200
pages + novel.
Thought you may like to know!
Vijay
Vijay
Correction: It is 'Georges' Perec. And another of his novels: 'Life:
A user's manual' is also a wonderful read.
Vijay
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> I have always found the XCM supremely boring, with repetitive
> repetition and monotonous monotony.
I actually liked these redundant tautologies :)
> I was trying to find parallels to XCM in other art forms and I found
> none.
You probably did not look hard enough. Your exercise in absurdity was
precisely that. However, if you had dug a bit deeper into English
writing (or speaking for that matter) you would have immediately found
a parallel. Grammar. The rules of XCM are much like the rules of
grammar. You tend to struggle with them (and especially those
exceptions! sheesh!) until you have internalized them and can then
ingore them in favor of what is actually being conveyed. And that can
be beautiful. Agreed, Shakespeare is not for everyone but then John
Grisham is not "better" than Shakespeare.
C
Aditya
And if you consider poetry as an art form, consider a 'ghazal'. It is
bound by the restrictions of behr, qaafiya and radeef.
Aditya
Sunil Dandekar
I would think that the grammar of music encompasses scales, time/
meter, harmonic intervals, chords, counter melodies. Guidelines to be
followed to make sure that music would sound good to human ears.
To my mind the restrictions on the notes to be used is similar to
prohibiting usage of certain letters from the alphabet. It is an
entirely different restriction than the grammatical one. But of course
others may think differently as you do.
As for Shakespeare, I would just like to submit to you a hypothesis.
If instead of British, it were Zulus who ruled most of the world in
1800 to 1950, would Shakespeare have been an institution that he is
today? In all likelihood your sentence would have been: John Grisham
is not better than Weuidub Hubugagi.
On the other hand the implication that people who like Shakespeare are
somehow better than those who prefer John Grisham is fairly typical of
the classicists.
regards,
Sunil
Sunil Dandekar
That is interesting. I did not know that. He has done something that
is fit to go in Ripley's BION. Thanks.
BTW you have not countered my anology. I did not say in my anology
that it can not be done. I merely pointed at the restrictions on the
creativity such an arbitrary rule would impose.
regards,
Sunil
Sunil Dandekar
wrote:
> On Nov 9, 9:29 am, Sunil Dandekar <sunnydande...@yahoo.com> gave an
> interesting set of rules for writing essays in English, which he feels
> are somehow analogous to the rules of XCM (nice abstraction - worth
> adopting).
>
> I know an Indian physicist who declared "Indian physicists are
> useless". Sunil, who finds XCM boring (therefore must be clueless
> about it) takes it upon himself to tell us why XCM must be doomed.
>
I am guilty of the same crime as yours dear. You are expressing your
views. Even such daring ones that if someone finds something boring,
(s)he must by clueless.
Curiously when somebody finds Bappi's or LP's music boring, nobody
accuses them of being clueless about their musical genres.
> Thank you for the intertainment, Sunil.
> And hey, Sunil, stop punishing yourself already. Do whatever it is
> that you find enjoyable, XCM will somehow survive without your help.
Oh thanks, I will, nice to know I have your blessings. XCM is
definitely surviving. May the plug be in place forever.
regards,
Sunil
>
> DG
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> As for Shakespeare, I would just like to submit to you a hypothesis.
> If instead of British, it were Zulus who ruled most of the world in
> 1800 to 1950, would Shakespeare have been an institution that he is
> today? In all likelihood your sentence would have been: John Grisham
> is not better than Weuidub Hubugagi.
But that does not change the basic concept at all! If, in fact, there
is a great Zulu writer of that name I would be willing to admit
"Shakespeare is not better than Hubugagi", the present world order
notwithstanding.
> On the other hand the implication that people who like Shakespeare are
> somehow better than those who prefer John Grisham is fairly typical of
> the classicists.
And the implication that Shakespeare is boring and repetitive is
fairly typical of the, er, masochists :)
C
Badri Ananth
Sunil, despite your best efforts, you find ICM boring. Hence you
conclude that there is something fundamentally wrong with ICM, and
those who do enjoy it must be elitists who do it just to bolster their
intellectual image. Is that a fair re-statement of your post?
There is a fair amount of elitism in ICM. No doubt, at times, some
people use ICM to assert their superiority over the masses by
flaunting their refined taste. But it would be premature to reject
ICM as a totally flawed idea based on this! So let me offer a
defense.
Most people will admit that there is no art without structure and
constraints. My (meager) understanding of art is that the greatest
delight results from the tension between the establishment of the norm
and departure from it. A simplistic example would be that an abstract
painting would seem quite absurd if not placed in the context of the
rigid, structural work that it rebels against. Creative expression
that has no contraints whatsoever would seem... random. The rules and
constraints help to establish a reference point, without which there
would be no contrast. The ethic of ICM could be stated as
'improvisation within the bounds of tradition'.
Yet the above is a fairly academic view of why the structure and
formalism in a raag might offer listening pleasure. I find it better
of think of a raag not as a structure, but an idea. My own path to
ICM was through the melodies of old Hindi film music and light
classical music (bhajan/thumri), where I found some tunes so
captivating that I was forced to ask: what is the mother lode of these
melodies? the source of this melodic idea? The popular modalities of
ICM (khyal, kriti) offer the purest expression of the idea/raag. The
lighter genres offer diluted and sweeter versions, but the khyal or
the Dhrupad really hammer home the idea. And yes, the leisurely/
boring gait and the many repetitions help - they make the central
theme much easier to grasp. Not all performers/renditions succeed
equally at putting the raag (the idea) front and center - some get
lost in the rules and the ornamentation/taankari. But when they do,
it is pure pleasure!
I concede that it may be possible to find a single-minded expression
of just one idea boring, though there is richness is in the minor
variations and subtleties. If so, you may find the lighter genres
more enjoyable. There is nothing at all wrong with light or popular
music - they satisfy a different (not inferior) taste.
> I was trying to find parallels to XCM in other art forms and I found
> none. As an exercise in absurdity try this:
I am reluctant to offer a counter-analogy, because the logic sometimes
gets tripped up by the analogy. Yet this one is irresistible: all
humans must have be bipeds, have two eyes, one nose, two ears, two
hands, etc... with these rigid restrictions, how can we find anyone
beautiful?
Cheers
Badri
Partha Choudhury
>hands, etc... with these rigid restrictions, how can we find anyone
>beautiful?
Touche!
- Partha
Sunil Dandekar
> Dear Sunil, all,
>
> Sunil, despite your best efforts, you find ICM boring. Hence you
> conclude that there is something fundamentally wrong with ICM, and
> those who do enjoy it must be elitists who do it just to bolster their
> intellectual image. Is that a fair re-statement of your post?
Thanks for a very balanced and dispassionate post. It was very thought
provoking for me. Enjoyed reading and responding.
This is a very fair re-statement with some changes. There is something
fundamentally wrong with the way ICM is *practised* today IMO. And the
elitists look down on others to bolster their intuc image.
>
> There is a fair amount of elitism in ICM. No doubt, at times, some
> people use ICM to assert their superiority over the masses by
> flaunting their refined taste. But it would be premature to reject
> ICM as a totally flawed idea based on this! So let me offer a
> defense.
I do not reject ICM as a flawed idea. I do enjoy the ICM in short
dosage like the film songs, Bhaav geets. But can't suffer in silence
"aa aaa aaaaa aaa" for 15 minutes.
> Most people will admit that there is no art without structure and
> constraints. My (meager) understanding of art is that the greatest
> delight results from the tension between the establishment of the norm
> and departure from it. A simplistic example would be that an abstract
> painting would seem quite absurd if not placed in the context of the
> rigid, structural work that it rebels against.
Very valid observation. Agree totally. But don't you think that
nature provides the context for all the arts? One sees an abstract
painting and compares it with his mental image of the visually
structured world? The shock appeal of the abstract art is based on
this mental comparison IMO. Similarly for the music our own preference
for the certain notes in certain sequence provides the context for the
music appreciation.
>Creative expression
> that has no contraints whatsoever would seem... random. The rules and
> constraints help to establish a reference point, without which there
> would be no contrast. The ethic of ICM could be stated as
> 'improvisation within the bounds of tradition'.
Once again agree with you. But do you not think that ICM like all
other arts should evolve with the times and throw away some of the
rules and conventions? What comes in way of making the presentations
snappier?
Since I like flute I keep on listening to Hariprasad ji. But the kind
of impact he had in 'Call of the valley' was way beyond his typical
classical renditions.
Can today's presentation not be changed to suit listener's choice? A
concert where Shivkumar ji and Hariprasad ji play instrumentals in a
classical composition, and say Kishori ji sings lyrics for a 10 minute
song? Like a western symphony concert? BTW Marathi Natyasangeet comes
very close to this golden mean.
But one would not demand that he should close his one eye when he is
being a husband, and lift one leg when he is a son. Would one? ;-)
> Cheers
> Badri
Imnot Apadmashri
> But can't suffer in silence "aa aaa aaaaa aaa" for 15 minutes.
If you suffer during even a well-done alap, then you _are_ clueless.
(Not to say _some_ artists don't make us suffer. Also, Bappi Lahri is
_one_ composer, while ICM is a whole set of genres with 1000s of
practitioners. So don't go pointing fingers at me for not liking
Bappi Lahri.)
> Can today's presentation not be changed to suit listener's choice?
Assuming you really meant "listeners' choice" in the plural, and not
your personal choice alone, that happens all the time in ICM. In fact
many of us may complain that there is too much of it happening.
> concert where Shivkumar ji and Hariprasad ji play instrumentals in a
> classical composition, and say Kishori ji sings lyrics for a 10 minute
> song? Like a western symphony concert?
Oh, is that how things are supposed to happen in "a western symphony
concert"? Then the few I have attended must have been totally
atypical!
DG
bnadig
> On Nov 11, 1:14 am, Badri Ananth <bad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Once again agree with you. But do you not think that ICM like all
> other arts should evolve with the times and throw away some of the
> rules and conventions? What comes in way of making the presentations
> snappier?
>
> Since I like flute I keep on listening to Hariprasad ji. But the kind
> of impact he had in 'Call of the valley' was way beyond his typical
> classical renditions.
>
> Can today's presentation not be changed to suit listener's choice? A
> concert where Shivkumar ji and Hariprasad ji play instrumentals in a
> classical composition, and say Kishori ji sings lyrics for a 10 minute
> song? Like a western symphony concert? BTW Marathi Natyasangeet comes
> very close to this golden mean.
>
I don't know how long it's been in vogue, but most CCM concerts
feature a long litany of 12 to 15 compositions in various ragas,
typically lasting 5 to 10 minutes each. I find this
raga treatment, generally unsatisfactory and mostly schoolbookish...
So, I just stay away from such...
When you listen to say, a beautiful renditon of 'Mogara Phulala' or
'He Surano', don't you thirst for more? Don't you wish it lasts for
ever? Don't you want to listen to a full exposition of the respective
Gorakh Kalyan or Charukeshi ? Or the 'Call of the Valley' Pahadi?
After I heard raag Saraswati by Pandit Ram Narayan on the Sarangi, I
wanted to listen every available rendition of Saraswati and have spent
considerable time and effort, in that pursuit...
So I guess, it's a case of whatever floats your boat:)
Regards,
Balu Nadig
Sunil Dandekar
wrote:
> On Nov 11, 3:03 am, Sunil Dandekar <sunnydande...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > But can't suffer in silence "aa aaa aaaaa aaa" for 15 minutes.
>
> If you suffer during even a well-done alap, then you _are_ clueless.
Whatever makes you happy. I am happy that you are so quick in your
conclusions. I helps me communicate with you appropriately.
> (Not to say _some_ artists don't make us suffer. Also, Bappi Lahri is
> _one_ composer, while ICM is a whole set of genres with 1000s of
> practitioners. So don't go pointing fingers at me for not liking
> Bappi Lahri.)
Do you honestly think that I know or care that you did not like Bappi
Lahiri? What conceit!
>
> > Can today's presentation not be changed to suit listener's choice?
>
> Assuming you really meant "listeners' choice" in the plural, and not
> your personal choice alone, that happens all the time in ICM. In fact
> many of us may complain that there is too much of it happening.
> > concert where Shivkumar ji and Hariprasad ji play instrumentals in a
> > classical composition, and say Kishori ji sings lyrics for a 10 minute
> > song? Like a western symphony concert?
>
> Oh, is that how things are supposed to happen in "a western symphony
> concert"? Then the few I have attended must have been totally
> atypical!
Oh so you enlighten me with what happens in the western symphony
concerts. I am so clueless, I always wanted to meet a musical buddha.
regards,
Sunil
> DG
Badri Ananth
> Can today's presentation not be changed to suit listener's choice?
> very close to this golden mean.
In other words, wouldn't it be great if we could have ICM presented in
a way that is accessible to all, without compromising its purity and
precision? I think it would, but this is rarely achieved. Presenting
a complex art in a simple way is a skill that few artists possess.
And not audiences can be trusted to bring out the best in a
performer! So unfortunately, the aim might be to make something
accessible to all but it may end up being satisfying to none.
Having said that, I think a good presentation of semi-classical music
can often strike this balance - Marathi natyasangeet, Urdu ghazal,
etc. They provide the lyrical element that is lacking in much of
Hindustani music. Nevertheless, some pure classical presentations
are, in my opinion, so truly beautiful that I feel they should appeal
to all.
Cheers
Badri
Nandu Kulkarni
> On Oct 13, 8:48 pm, bnadig <baluna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> people do during Hindustani concerts as well.
>
>
>
> > Why, walking out when the "Thani avartanam" starts was almost a
> > requirement in Bangalore;-)
>
> I have heard that once Palghat Mani Iyer got so ... if you will pardon
> the expression... pissed off that he chastised the audience " Is that
> why you think I am playing this?! To provide some time out so you can
> go and relieve yourself? Is that all my music induces in you?" Must
> have been some real juicy stuff in pure Tamil. In the end he swore
> never to play in that town again.
>
> Havanur
One disturbing trend I have observed recently is the audience breaking
into an applause several times in a concert, like whenever the
performer holds the taar shadja for a long time or takes a long or
intricate taan, or the accompanist plays a piece well. People even
applaud when a santoor player reaches the ati-taar shadja, which I
find very puzzling. I have been attending concerts for 35 years in
Pune and have seen this sort of thing only in the last few years.
While some artistes seem to enjoy this enthusiastic expression of
appreciation, I am sure many must be finding it rather disturbing. I
sometimes wish organisers would request people not to applaud during
the concert, apart from swithcing off mobiles.
I haven't heard anybody else complaining about it, so I am wondering
if I am the only one who finds this practice distasteful.
Nandu
Archisman Mozumder
>
> One disturbing trend I have observed recently is the audience breaking
> into an applause several times in a concert, like whenever the
> performer holds the taar shadja for a long time or takes a long or
> intricate taan, or the accompanist plays a piece well. People even
> applaud when a santoor player reaches the ati-taar shadja, which I
> find very puzzling. I have been attending concerts for 35 years in
> Pune and have seen this sort of thing only in the last few years.
> While some artistes seem to enjoy this enthusiastic expression of
> appreciation, I am sure many must be finding it rather disturbing. I
> sometimes wish organisers would request people not to applaud during
> the concert, apart from swithcing off mobiles.
>
> I haven't heard anybody else complaining about it, so I am wondering
> if I am the only one who finds this practice distasteful.
>
> Nandu
Dear Nandu-ji,
I too find it unpleasant.
Perhaps the Anup Jalota syndrome? :)
Regards.
AR
> On Nov 9, 10:29 pm, Sunil Dandekar <sunnydande...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have always found the XCM supremely boring, with repetitive
> > repetition and monotonous monotony.
>
> I actually liked these redundant tautologies :)
It actually reminded me of the phrase "aural listenings" and "aural
music" used by Jayaraman in the other thread :-).
>
> > I was trying to find parallels to XCM in other art forms and I found
> > none.
>
About Sunil's statement that art cannot flourish under restrictions -
it is quite simply not true. Restrictions are part of that art form
itself. Poetry is one example - it is a form of text with some
restrictions - such as the requirement of rhyming, metre etc. Another
is music itself! Isn't it a restriction that a singer must stick to
certain frequency sets that we call as notes?
Havanur
>
> One disturbing trend I have observed recently is the audience breaking
> into an applause several times in a concert, like whenever the
> performer holds the taar shadja for a long time or takes a long or
> intricate taan, or the accompanist plays a piece well. People even
> applaud when a santoor player reaches the ati-taar shadja, which I
> find very puzzling. I have been attending concerts for 35 years in
> Pune and have seen this sort of thing only in the last few years.
> While some artistes seem to enjoy this enthusiastic expression of
> appreciation, I am sure many must be finding it rather disturbing. I
> sometimes wish organisers would request people not to applaud during
> the concert, apart from swithcing off mobiles.
>
> I haven't heard anybody else complaining about it, so I am wondering
> if I am the only one who finds this practice distasteful.
>
> Nandu
Rest assured you are not alone. The last concert that I attended of
Ganapati Bhat there was this woman who considered it necessary to show
her appreciation by loudly clapping every time he held steady on a
note, arrived on the sam, every taan, and … well just about
everything. During the interval I asked the organisers to make an
announcement and put an end to the nuisance. Apparently Shri Bhat said
jaane do, chalta hai so they didn’t do anything.
That said, I think there is *some* justification for applauding an
accompanist during the concert. If the main artist gives them time off
for a bit of solo display and the harmonium/sarangi/violin/tabla
player does a good job they deserve some individual appreciation
IMO. This is of course quite different from the moronic cheering for
mindless tabla banging bouts during instrumental programs. So long as
the interlude is brief and applause is modest I am in favour.
Havanur
Imnot Apadmashri
> One disturbing trend I have observed recently is the audience breaking
> into an applause several times in a concert, ... (e.g.) takes a long or
> intricate taan,
How recently? The "applause-oriented" taan - a sequence of 4 notes,
usually what Bhatkhande would write as (X), endlessly repeated till
the audience applauded - has been there since the early 80s at least.
I suspect it migrated fromMarath Natak to HCV.
> performer holds the taar shadja for a long time
Most microphone gharana* artists seem to feed this phenomenon. Once
again, this has existed at least since the 80s. What may be more
recent is an explosion in the number of such artists.
Something I have noticed more recently than that is applause at the
end of a well-rounded avartan of vilambit. So, perhaps, the
applauders are getting more sophisticated!
No comment on today's "top" instrumentalists and their fans. I find
it best to ignore that lot.
DG
* (any singer who, when seen from afar, appears to swallow the head of
the microphone)
Vishwaroopa Sharma
>
> Most microphone gharana* artists seem to feed this phenomenon.
> the microphone)
To add something spicy to the issue raised by you is an incident
happened a few years back.
Here it goes:
He is a disciple of one of the legendary musicians of this country. As
always, he learnt under the maestro for almost 1/3rd of his lifespan.
He sat to render his guru's favourite raga in the morning as the
concluding recital. Being aware of his irritable singing, the audience
were looking for some light to relieve them. By this time, it happened
to the launch of Antara and the 'veteran' delivered a 200% precise
taar sa. well-volumed, highly precise and what not! The audience were
spellbound and started applauding by wah wahs (it was a typically old-
mannered mehfil, though:) To our veteran's discomfort, the harmonium
accompanist was too naughty. In the middle of that commendable sa he
stopped the sur of the harmonium. Guess what happened?
The veteran was busy posing the delivery of a powerful Sa as his guru
in all motilities. It was a posing. It was really the sur of harmonium
which goofed up the audience! The recital as well as the whole
programme ended up with a heavy laughter and the organisers were
trying if something could be done, albeit failing to control their own
laughter.
Manohar
> On Oct 21, 8:45 am, Imnot Apadmashri <imnotapadmas...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 21, 12:56 am, Manohar <manohar.bo...@gmail.com> gave some
> > examples of urdu liricassination.
>
> > And in proper classical singing there is paglaa gun de, not to mention
> > "tata vitata ghana shikhara". I am sure CCM fans have their own
Yes and the bandish Karim naam tero often is Kari manaa.. ( Do what
your mind tells you)
I think the Guru did nnt tell the shaagird the meaning. There has been
an instance when some one asked a shaagird if he has learnt Mia
Malahar?
Shagird's response was: no I do not know this raag. And the Guru
shouting Have you not been taught Kari Manaa.
Raamdaasi Malhar is considered as a raag composed by the saint Ramdas
of Maharashtra.
But dont forget when some one is corrected they do understand the
mistake.
MB
> > examples. But where does all that lead us to?
>
> > DG
>
> One CCM example I'm fond of quoting is "saraguna
> paalimpa" (Kedaragowla) which everyone and their dog sings as
> "saraguNa p.", replacing the correct 'n' with the incorrect 'retroflex
> Na', rendering the phrase utterly meaningless.
>
> Where does this lead us? -- nowhere we have not gone before. I think
> the point being made is that it dilutes the listening experience (for
> at least one particular section of "original listeners").
>
> -UVR.
bnadig
This, at a recent HCM concert here in New Jersey...We (my wife and I)
were sitting in one of the back rows, when one of the organizers (and
a well-meaning friend) ushered us into the very first row saying "I
know you will enjoy it"...
Our initial annoyance (applause every time the the artist held a note)
turned into embarrassment, as we sat there between, ahem, the
appreciative audience and the performer belting out a barely
impressive Yaman, glancing at us every once in a while, possibly
wondering that we must be one of those clueless VIPs :(
Regards
Balu Nadig
bnadig
> On Oct 21, 9:17 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:> On Oct 21, 8:45 am, Imnot Apadmashri <imnotapadmas...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 21, 12:56 am, Manohar <manohar.bo...@gmail.com> gave some
> > > examples of urdu liricassination.
>
> > > And in proper classical singing there is paglaa gun de, not to mention
> > > "tata vitata ghana shikhara". I am sure CCM fans have their own
>
> Yes and the bandish Karim naam tero often is Kari manaa.. ( Do what
> your mind tells you)
>
> I think the Guru did nnt tell the shaagird the meaning. There has been
> an instance when some one asked a shaagird if he has learnt Mia
> Malahar?
>
> Shagird's response was: no I do not know this raag. And the Guru
> shouting Have you not been taught Kari Manaa.
>
> Raamdaasi Malhar is considered as a raag composed by the saint Ramdas
> of Maharashtra.
>
> But dont forget when some one is corrected they do understand the
> mistake.
>
> MB
>
Manohar ji:
Am I glad I don't pay attention to the lyrics;-)
Like you said, they understand when someone corrects them... But alas,
how do you correct this, coming from someone of such 'repute' :((
“I do believe that Carnatic music is much more superior to any other
music. Our tradition is a combination of the lyrical value, the
spiritual value, the number of compositions in a number of languages
(not just Hindi) – and we concentrate more on the laya aspect; there’s
more complexity in our talas, for instance."
Source : http://www.desipundit.com/baradwajrangan/2006/09/17/interview-bombay-jayashri/
Balu Nadig :(
AR
>
> Balu Nadig :(
Yes, but her complete opinion was:
" “I love Hindustani music. I love the aesthetics, the way they
develop the voice. I wanted to learn the system at least to acquaint
myself with their raga nomenclature, their elaborate raga singing,
their phraseology, their training. And that has helped my music – my
tuning, my pitch perfection, my breath control. She quickly adds, “I
do believe that Carnatic music is much more superior to any other
music. Our tradition is a combination of the lyrical value, the
spiritual value, the number of compositions in a number of languages
(not just Hindi) – and we concentrate more on the laya aspect; there’s
more complexity in our talas, for instance.
But the Hindustani influence remains. “Aesthetically, I would like to
impart the peace-giving aspect of Hindustani music through our music.
A lot of people tell me my music is very soothing, and I’m sure it all
comes from my Hindustani background."
I think she is somewhat contradicting herself. The one thing she's
forgotten (perhaps) is that in pure Hindustani music, the lyrics
aren't that important and hence it does not matter very much in which
language they were written. In the lighter forms (ghazal, bhajan,
natyasangeet, qawwali, gurbaani, kajri, jhhoola, thhumri) etc, the
lyrics are important. And these compositions don't exist only in
Hindi.
As an aside, I remember a Balamuralikrishna interview (it was
published in our college magazine in Pune about 8 years ago) with his
statement that he can easily replicate whatever a Hindustani singer
does, but that no Hindustani singer can sing what he has!
C Parthapratim
... replicate ... caricature ... there's a very fine line there ... I
remember the duet series with BJ ... my personal opinion is he can't.
The spirit of HCM lies somewhere far beyond sheer acrobatics. Anyway,
continue please.
Partha
Vishwaroopa Sharma
Well said, Partha. But in any case we should first know the full text
of BMK's statement. An excerpt may as well mislead us.
Given the faith on the post of the friend, it is really sad to know
BMK has such a silly thought on HCM.
~
VS
Warren
> As an aside, I remember a Balamuralikrishna interview (it was
> published in our college magazine in Pune about 8 years ago) with his
> statement that he can easily replicate whatever a Hindustani singer
> does, but that no Hindustani singer can sing what he has!
Accurate replication can be determined by the replicatee, not the
replicator.
Hilarious examples of this abound in many attempts by exponents of
one idiom to perform in another. In jazz circles in the 1940s, the
attempt
by the classical pianist Jose Iturbi to perform a piece in the
ostensibly
simple "boogie woogie" style led to widespread ridicule from blues
lovers,
who pointed out that he'd completely missed the music's point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK9pJVRcjIc
Opera singers attempting Broadway are another source of inapt
cross-idiom FAIL; likewise, of course, pop singers attempting Opera.
Balamurali is just demonstrating that he holds other musical styles
in contempt. I'd love to hear him try and reproduce a Ray Charles
record.
WS
Sukesh
> Balamurali is just demonstrating that he holds other musical styles
> in contempt. I'd love to hear him try and reproduce a Ray Charles
> record.
>
> WS
If indeed Balamurali did make such a statement, then either he is
envious of the practitioners of the other musical forms having
attained greater fame, recognition and money or he is being just plain
petty-minded.
In 1990s, Shrimati Kishore Amonkar in an interview to a magazine/
newspaper was all praise for Barbara Streisand. She didn't ridicule
Western music. Some months back, Pandit Ravi Shankar complimented the
film music composers of yore and said it was not an easy task even for
a classical trained artiste like him to be in the same league, as it
was a different cup of tea. There was no ridiculing of 'filmy' music.
Regards
Sukesh
Havanur
> Balamurali is just demonstrating that he holds other musical styles
> in contempt.
I don't think BMK intended or said anything like what has been
attributed to him here. I would even guess that he was referring to
the more orthodox CCMers holding such views and has been misquoted.
> I'd love to hear him try and reproduce a Ray Charles
> record.
Senders saaru ... why challenge Balamuraligaaru when such trivial
tasks can be handled by Sankara Sastrygaaru??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKH9EiyDWhw&feature=related
Havanur
bnadig
> On Nov 22, 7:15 pm, Warren <war...@aol.com> took issue:
> the more orthodox CCMers holding such views and has been misquoted.
>
Yes, yes... Jayashri ammal's interview was from 'early 2006s' ;-)
AR
>
> > Balamurali is just demonstrating that he holds other musical styles
> > in contempt.
>
> I don't think BMK intended or said anything like what has been
> attributed to him here.> I would even guess that he was referring to
> the more orthodox CCMers holding such views and has been misquoted.
>
No, he really said this and it was published in our college magazine.
I remember having read it very clearly. He most certainly didn't
attribute this to older practitioners of the Carnatic idiom but
pronounced it as his own opinion.