A Matter of Pronunciation: KH(w)aab!
U.V Ravindra
but I still want to ask this question to the RMIM pronunciation gurus.
Is the word "KHwaab" or "KHaab?"
I think it is "KHwaab," for that is how it's written. However, is
there a pronunciation variant (or ANOTHER word that I don't know the
existence of, perhaps) which sounds like "KHaab." Oftentimes one
hears songs like "KHaab ho tum yaa koi haqeeqat (KK)," or "yeh sadiyoN
se be_KHaab sehmi si galiyaaN" (Rafi in "jinheiN naaz hai hind par woh
kahaaN haiN), "naujawaani ke haseeN KHaab ki tabeer thi woh" (Rafi,
again, in "zindagi bhar nahiN bhoolegi") etc. I have even heard Mehdi
Hassan sing "ab ke ham bichhD.e to shaayad kabhi KHaaboN meiN mileN"
(this is one of his favourite and most popular GHazals), and Hassan
Saheb is known to be a sticker for pronunciation (I have even heard
instances where he has picked on other singers for pronouncing
"girebaan" as "gareebaan" ;-))...
Which is the correct pronunciation? Or is the difference between
"KHwaab" and "KHaab" something similar to the difference between
saying (as, of his own admission, Irfan-bhai would prefer)
"paani udhar mez par rakhaa hai, pee lo"
or, as the accomplished Faiz Ahmed Faiz said oh-so-beautifully:
"teri aaNkhoN ke siwaa duniyaa meiN rakkhaa kyaa hai"
[Yes! It is "rakkhaa!" It doesn't fit in the meter *at all*
otherwise.]
Please clarify. Abhay? Irfan?
Thanks a lot in advance,
Ravindra.
Back home for two days *only*.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: U.V Ravindra asked:
: >Is the word "KHwaab" or "KHaab?" I think it is "KHwaab," for that is how it's written. Which is the correct pronunciation?
: The word is written "Khwaab" and usually pronounced "Khaab", on the same lines as other Persian lafs "Khwaajaa", "Khwaar", "Khwaahis=
: h". I have been taught that this is a silent "vao" that is always written after "Khe" in Persian, being left over from an earlier pr=
: onunciation. In this way the lafs "Khud" and "Khush" are written in the Persian script "Khe" "vao" "daal", and "Khe" "vao" "shiin", =
: though no one would ever dream of pronouncing them with the "vao". The only problem with this theory is that Khuda is written "Khe" =
: "daal" "alif" - I don't know why there isn't a "vao" here.
I don't know for sure about the Khwaajaa , KHwaar and KHwaahish bit David?
I hear Urdu being spoken in my home all the time. I have a relative who is
having a last name Khwaja. I have always heard the "vao" being there
included to provide an "o" sound i.e. your lips form that "o" like shape
while coming out of "KH". "KHwaar" has been pronounced as KHaar in a few
songs tho' (Hemant in Jaane woh kaise comes to mind).
: t comes to speaking poetry so as to properly fit a metre. Sticklers for pronunciation are always somewhat pretentious, na? Particula=
: rly when it comes to the use of Persian in Urdu/Hindi, or French or Latin in English. Popular usage will always win out though. All =
: words from other languages undergo changes when they enter the Hindi sound-system; though sometimes Hindi tadbhaw shabds are influen=
: ced by the new sounds - as with "phir" being pronounced as "fir". Personally I'd always go with the Galat-ul-aam, but then na shuddh=
Also about the fir for phir bit, my cuzs who have studied in Madhya Pradesh
told me that they have been taught phir only. The fir in Maharashtra, I
therefore attributed (maybe wrongly) to people trying to use the Marathi
pronunciation of the same alphabet "PH" that is also there in Hindi. Another
example of this I thought was the use of "muzhe" for mujhe.
Until modern times I had always heard the singers using phir and not fir.
But I remember AnuradhaPaudwal in a bhajan shown on tv "Aaoongee Aaoongee
maiN agle baras fir aaoongi" use it as fir. I think I have noticed even
Alka whose 'Q' pronunciation cannot be faulted use the "fir" in her songs
too ( do not offhand remember which).... Lata and Asha as faar as I know
have never gone to fir, but that might be because these people can be
thought of as belonging to the old school where Urdu pronunciation of the
words was stressed.
Am I being pretentious in pondering over pronunciations? Ok, guys, you don't
have to answer that one :))
Later,
Ikram.
: Hindi na fasiih Urdu, meri zabaan ka hal bas kutta hai dhobi ka :-)
: But enough, main Luqmaan ko hiqmat sikhaana nahiin chaahta huun.
: David Windsor win...@fac.anu.edu.au
U.V Ravindra
iak...@tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) writes:
=> David Windsor (win...@fac.anu.edu.au) wrote:
=> : U.V Ravindra asked:
=>
=> : >Is the word "KHwaab" or "KHaab?" I think it is "KHwaab," for
=> : >that is how it's written. Which is the correct pronunciation?
=>
=> : The word is written "Khwaab" and usually pronounced "Khaab", on
=> : the same lines as other Persian lafs "Khwaajaa", "Khwaar",
=> : "Khwaahish".
=> : I have been taught that this is a silent "vao" that is always
=> : written after "Khe" in Persian, being left over from an earlier
=> : pronunciation. In this way the lafs "Khud" and "Khush" are
=> : written in the Persian script "Khe" "vao" "daal", and "Khe" "vao"
=> : "shiin", though no one would ever dream of pronouncing them with
=> : the "vao". The only problem with this theory is that Khuda is written
=> : "Khe" "daal" "alif" - I don't know why there isn't a "vao" here.
Thanks for your answer, David. Obviously, according to what you say,
the difference between the two pronunciations of "KHwaab" is purely
dialectical. This is also what comes through from the following words
of Ikram. However, I am not sure that the parallel you are drawing
between the hijja-s of "KHush" and "KHud" and those of "KHudaa" is
correct. I know for sure that the Afghans pronounce the former two
words as "KHoosh" and "KHood". I am not sure but I conjecture that
this is also the "correct" pronunciation of these two words in
"chaste" Persian. This is my (mis)impression, and I hope somebody
confirms/disambiguates it.
=> I don't know for sure about the Khwaajaa , KHwaar and KHwaahish bit David?
=> I hear Urdu being spoken in my home all the time. I have a relative who is
=> having a last name Khwaja. I have always heard the "vao" being there
=> included to provide an "o" sound i.e. your lips form that "o" like shape
=> while coming out of "KH". "KHwaar" has been pronounced as KHaar in a few
=> songs tho' (Hemant in Jaane woh kaise comes to mind).
Pronouncing "KHwaahish" as "KHaahish" is also another thing that Mehdi
Hassan, the Great GHazal singer does. I have never heard Ghulam Ali
do the same, however. Neither does Begum Akhtar do it. This too,
therefore, must be a case of dialectical distinction in pronunciation.
However, like Ikram, I have also never heard "KHwaja" being pronounced
as "KHaajaa." As for "KHwaar" and "KHaar," there *does* exist a word
called "KHaar" (meaning 'thorn') which differs from the word "KHwaar"
(meaning 'lonely/friendless/alone/wretched/distraught') ... there was
a discussion on RMIM a couple of months ago on this (in the context of
one of the ASAD articles of Abhay Avachat, and both Abhay and Irfan
had clarified this for me at that time)... As for Hemant Kumar's
pronunciation, it wasn't unexceptionable *at all*, but I do think that
in the Pyasa song the word that he used was the exact word he wanted
to use, namely, "GHam_KHaar". Remember, Ikram, he is talking about
"kaaNToN kaa haar" and stuff like that, and so it does make sense to
say "dil ke bojh ko doonaa kar gayaa jo GHam_KHaar milaa" ...
This is only a fanciful explain-it-away technique that I am employing.
In reality, even I feel that the correct word *IS* "GHam_KHwaar" in
this song.
=> : t comes to speaking poetry so as to properly fit a metre.
=> : Sticklers for pronunciation are always somewhat pretentious, na?
Speaking about poetry, the different possible pronunciations of the
words, if they exist *AND* are acceptable, offer a great advantage in
terms of the rythm-rhyme-and-meter of poetic composition. However,
this is only true in the case of words where different pronunciations
of the same word are crystallised in the language by different
spellings. I don't seem to be making much sense this way (same word?
different pronunciation? *different* spelling? *same* word?). An
example will clarify this issue. Consider the words "teri" (your/s)
and "meri" (my/mine) which each have TWO different pronunciations in
Urdu as "tErI" (with an elongated 'e' sound) [as in "GHam kaa
KHazaanaa tEraa bhi hai mEraa bhi"], and "t'ri" (pronounced in a
manner verisimilar to "tiri", with a very short 'e' sound [as in "t'ri
aaNkhoN ke siwaa duniyaa meiN rakkhaa kyaa hai"] ... these two
pronunciations have TWO different spellings (hijja-s) too. "tEri" is
written as "te, ye, re, ye" whereas "t'ri" is spelt "te, re, ye".
So?!
=> : All words from other languages undergo changes when they enter
=> : the Hindi sound-system; though sometimes Hindi tadbhaw shabds are
=> : influenced by the new sounds - as with "phir" being pronounced as
=> : "fir".
=>
=> Also about the fir for phir bit, my cuzs who have studied in Madhya Pradesh
=> told me that they have been taught phir only. The fir in Maharashtra, I
=> therefore attributed (maybe wrongly) to people trying to use the Marathi
=> pronunciation of the same alphabet "PH" that is also there in Hindi. Another
=> example of this I thought was the use of "muzhe" for mujhe.
There is no doubt that the word is "phir". It is written as "pe, he,
re" and not "fe, he, re", which conclusively proves that the correct
pronunciation is "phir" and not "fir".
=> Until modern times I had always heard the singers using phir and not fir.
=> But I remember AnuradhaPaudwal in a bhajan shown on tv "Aaoongee Aaoongee
=> maiN agle baras fir aaoongi" use it as fir. I think I have noticed even
=> Alka whose 'Q' pronunciation cannot be faulted use the "fir" in her songs
=> too ( do not offhand remember which).... Lata and Asha as faar as I know
=> have never gone to fir, but that might be because these people can be
=> thought of as belonging to the old school where Urdu pronunciation of the
=> words was stressed.
You are right. In Hindi, one could perhaps relax the limits of
rigorousness of pronunciation and pronounce words as "fir" or "fal"
whereas Urdu fandamentalists (thanks for that word, Samibhai!) would
always say that the correct pronunciation is "phir" and "phal"...
Of course, one would have to be careful in not stretching things too
"phaar" ... for one could easily slip up and send, instead of
beautiful "phool"-s, to one's beloved, a bunch of irritating "fool"-s!
Old pun, I know, but it throws ample light on why some people (like
me) are sticklers for pronunciation.
=> Am I being pretentious in pondering over pronunciations? Ok, guys, you don't
=> have to answer that one :))
;-)
Regards,
Ravindra, urf Faazil Fazal.
p
uvr@tata_elxsi.soft.net (U.V Ravindra) wrote:
>In article <42q241$n...@news.tamu.edu>
>iak...@tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) writes:
>
>=> David Windsor (win...@fac.anu.edu.au) wrote:
>=> : U.V Ravindra asked:
>=>
mulakaat men bhi maine bahut kuchh sikha.. abhi tak mujhe ek afsos rah gaya
tha ki college men maine urdu jabaan nahi sikhi.. lagata hai aap sab doston ki
baat-chit se mujhe bhi thhoda-kuchh aa jaayega.. bahut bahut shukriyaa!!
Parul
David A. Windsor
>I don't know for sure about the Khwaajaa , KHwaar and KHwaahish bit David?
>I hear Urdu being spoken in my home all the time. I have a relative who is
>having a last name Khwaja. I have always heard the "vao" being there
>included to provide an "o" sound i.e. your lips form that "o" like shape
>while coming out of "KH". "KHwaar" has been pronounced as KHaar in a few
>songs tho' (Hemant in Jaane woh kaise comes to mind).
Of course miyan sahib, I could be wrong :-) but in "khwaja" isn't the
"vao" being realised as a vowel (as you say when it is there to provide
an "o" sound ) and hence it would be transliterated
"khoja". I presumed the question was about the pronunciation of the
consonant "vao" after "khe", not about when that "vao" actually stands
for a vowel.
Khuda hafiz,
--
David Windsor win...@fac.anu.edu.au
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Hmmmmm, to put it delicately David, I got quite lost in the "vow" for the
"vowel" bit!! All I said was that "khaaja" or even "khoja" would be
incorrect (probably).... the way I have heard it said was as if you took the
"wa" sound in "water" spoken in the true English tradition with your lips
forming the "o" while saying the "w" and put it in between KH and aaja and
say that as one word without pause ..sounds like "KHo-aaja" spoken without
pause
Later,
Ikram.
: Khuda hafiz,
: --
: David Windsor win...@fac.anu.edu.au