Latanjali: daGaa daGaa vai vai vai
Abhay Phadnis
Another song - like "naam meraa nimmo" - where Lata seems to be enjoying
herself thoroughly in a zest-filled song. If the price we have to pay Lata
for singing songs like this is to put up with a thousand clones of "didi
teraa devar deewaanaa", so be it - saudaa phir bhii faayade kaa hai. If you
think I am overstating the case, go back to this song and listen to it -
again and again and again. (While transcribing the lyrics, I listened to it
7 times in a row - though the lyrics were transcribed correctly by the third
replay itself!)
At the risk of incurring Ashok's wrath, I must say that when I first heard
this song ages ago, I took it for granted it was S-J's music. I still find
it hard to believe that it's a Chitragupt song!
Before anyone rushes to "correct" the 'dukhe' (in line 2 or antaraa 2) to
'dukhii', please listen to the line carefully again.
I wasn't sure of "chekunam"/"chikunam" - I chose the former because Lata's
pronunciation sways toward "che..." rather than "chi...". Any idea who or
what "chekunam" is, anyone?
Warm regards,
Abhay
% ITRANS Song #
%
\startsong
\stitle{daGaa daGaa vai vai vai}%
\film{Kali Topi Lal Rumal}%
\year{1959}%
\starring{Chandrashekhar, Shakila, Kumkum}%
\singer{Lata Mangeshkar}%
\music{Chitragupt}%
\lyrics{Majrooh Sultanpuri}%
%
% Audio on:
% Contributor: Abhay Phadnis
% Transliterator: Abhay Phadnis
% Date: 9 Nov 2004
% Series: Latanjali
% Comments:
% generated using giitaayan
%
\printtitle
#indian
%
(daGaa daGaa vai vai vai
daGaa daGaa vai vai vai
ho ga_ii tumase ulfat ho ga_ii) \-2
daGaa daGaa vai vai vai
(yuu.N hii raaho.n me.n kha.De hai.n teraa kyaa lete hai.n
dekh lete hai.n jalan dil kii bujhaa lete hai.n) \-2
aa_e hai.n duur se ham
tere milane ko sanam
chekunam, chekunam, chekunam
daGaa daGaa vai vai vai \threedots
(jaan jalatii hai nazar aise churaayaa na karo
ho Gariibo.n ke dukhe dil ko dukhaayaa na karo) \-2
aa_e hai.n duur se ham
tere milane ko sanam
chekunam, chekunam, chekunam
daGaa daGaa vai vai vai \threedots
(ham qariib aate hai.n tum aur judaa hote ho
lo chale jaate hai.n kaahe ko Kafaa hote ho) \-2
ab nahii.n aa_e.Nge ham
tere milane ko sanam
chekunam, chekunam, chekunam
daGaa daGaa vai vai vai \threedots
%
#endindian
\endsong
Afzal A. Khan
Abhay Phadnis wrote:
>
> Another song - like "naam meraa nimmo" - where Lata seems to be enjoying
> herself thoroughly in a zest-filled song. If the price we have to pay Lata
> for singing songs like this is to put up with a thousand clones of "didi
> teraa devar deewaanaa", so be it - saudaa phir bhii faayade kaa hai. If you
> think I am overstating the case, go back to this song and listen to it -
> again and again and again. (While transcribing the lyrics, I listened to it
> 7 times in a row - though the lyrics were transcribed correctly by the third
> replay itself!)
>
> At the risk of incurring Ashok's wrath, I must say that when I first heard
> this song ages ago, I took it for granted it was S-J's music. I still find
> it hard to believe that it's a Chitragupt song!
>
> Before anyone rushes to "correct" the 'dukhe' (in line 2 or antaraa 2) to
> 'dukhii', please listen to the line carefully again.
>
> I wasn't sure of "chekunam"/"chikunam" - I chose the former because Lata's
> pronunciation sways toward "che..." rather than "chi...". Any idea who or
> what "chekunam" is, anyone?
> Abhay
A nice song. But I won't call it a SJ-type song.
Another song from the film was a much greater hit :
"Laagi chhoTe na ab to sanam".
And yes, it is in fact "dukhe". The construction
would perhaps be "dukhe huwe dil ko...", where
"huwe" has been omitted.
The song was well-choreographed. KumKum was quite
coquettish, which is the requirement of such a song.
The Pathan servants provide an enjoyable backdrop.
"Che" is the Persian query word : "What". It is
better to separate the two parts, like "che~kunam".
Afzal
UVR
>
> Abhay Phadnis wrote:
>
>>I wasn't sure of "chekunam"/"chikunam" - I chose the former because Lata's
>>pronunciation sways toward "che..." rather than "chi...". Any idea who or
>>what "chekunam" is, anyone?
>
>
> better to separate the two parts, like "che~kunam".
[Wondering why Afzal saahib didn't answer the question in its entirety]
che kunam: kyaa karuu.N
-UVR.
Malini
"Abhay Phadnis" <aphadnis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BDB6B36A.1109%aphadnis...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> % ITRANS Song #
> %
> \startsong
> \stitle{daGaa daGaa vai vai vai}%
> \film{Kali Topi Lal Rumal}%
> \year{1959}%
> \starring{Chandrashekhar, Shakila, Kumkum}%
> \singer{Lata Mangeshkar}%
> \music{Chitragupt}%
> \lyrics{Majrooh Sultanpuri}%
> %
> % Audio on:
> % Contributor: Abhay Phadnis
> % Transliterator: Abhay Phadnis
> % Date: 9 Nov 2004
> % Series: Latanjali
> % Comments:
> % generated using giitaayan
> %
> \printtitle
> #indian
> %
> ho Gariibo.n ke dukhe dil ko dukhaayaa na karo) \-2
I always heard it as:
ham Gariibo.n ....
Malini
anil dixit
the music at the beginning of the song is very good too. chitragupta
was a much underrated composer and like many others composed a few
gems before fading away. his 'Bhabhi' score is excellent.
Ashok
>
>> \stitle{daGaa daGaa vai vai vai}%
> A nice song. But I won't call it a SJ-type song.
> Another song from the film was a much greater hit :
> "Laagi chhoTe na ab to sanam".
What are these chhoTe laagi things?
> And yes, it is in fact "dukhe". The construction
> would perhaps be "dukhe huwe dil ko...", where
> "huwe" has been omitted.
What? It is not "dukh-e-dil"?
> Afzal
What does "daGaa vai" mean?
Ashok
urzung khan
Abhay Phadnis wrote:
[rest of the stuff deleted]
> (daGaa daGaa vai vai vai
> daGaa daGaa vai vai vai
> ho ga_ii tumase ulfat ho ga_ii) \-2
> daGaa daGaa vai vai vai
A suggestion:
(daGaa daGaa va_ii va_ii va_ii
daGaa daGaa va_ii va_ii va_ii
ho ga_ii tumase ulfat ho ga_ii) \-2
daGaa daGaa va_ii va_ii va_ii
urzung khan
Abhay Phadnis
"Malini" <malin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
>> (jaan jalatii hai nazar aise churaayaa na karo
>> ho Gariibo.n ke dukhe dil ko dukhaayaa na karo) \-2
>
> I always heard it as:
>
> ham Gariibo.n ....
Just heard it again carefully - it is "ho".
Warm regards,
Abhay
Abhay Phadnis
<urz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Urzung-saab, to my ears, there is no long "ii" sound there. At best, it
could be made "va_i".
Warm regards,
Abhay
paabagil
"daGaa" is a Pashtu word, meaning "this one!", i.e., with an emphasis
on "this". An Urdu equivalent would be "yehee", cf. "ye".
"va_ii" is again Pashtu. It's an expression of pain, sorrow, surprise,
etc., akin to "uff", "haa_e", etc.
In the song the words don't mean anythig at all. I think Majrooh just
wanted to create a Pashtu-esque setting ... maybe the story of the
movie has something to do with Pashtu/Pathans.
Chi-kunam is not used in Pashtu.
Zafar
Afzal A. Khan
I think it is "vaee", i.e. the long "ii" sound. The word
has been used in other songs too, and every time, I have
always heard it as "vaee".
OTOH, "va_i" is like the Konkani "vai", which probably
means "yes" or "OK".
Afzal
Isn't
naniwadekar
"paabagil" <paab...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> >
> > What does "daGaa vai" mean?
>
> "daGaa" is a Pashtu word, meaning "this one!", i.e., with an emphasis
> on "this". An Urdu equivalent would be "yehee", cf. "ye".
>
> "va_ii" is again Pashtu. It's an expression of pain, sorrow, surprise,
> etc., akin to "uff", "haa_e", etc.
>
There is a song in Pehli Nazar : khaan kaabuul se
aayaa jii, vai vai vai. I can't make out later lines clearly
but the first line is certainly not sung in any sorrowful
tone, unless MD and singer have got the tone wrong.
But that is quite unlikely because the words 'vai vai
vai' are later delivered a couple of
times in a playful manner. And the decision to use the
words for musical play on them is quite deliberate.
Three women have sung the song. It is a masterpiece.
'daga daga vai vai vai' is also a masterpiece.
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
> Abhay
IIRC, it is indeed "ham", as Maliniji has suggested.
"Ho", at the beginning of a line is like an alaap,
calculated to "prolong" the singing. Here the first
word "h..." is quite short. {Please give it another
listen.} And, in the context of the song, a short
"ho" does not make sense, whereas "hum" does.
Afzal
Afzal A. Khan
paabagil wrote:
> "daGaa" is a Pashtu word, meaning "this one!", i.e., with an emphasis
> on "this". An Urdu equivalent would be "yehee", cf. "ye".
>
> "va_ii" is again Pashtu. It's an expression of pain, sorrow, surprise,
> etc., akin to "uff", "haa_e", etc.
Also perhaps, in the sense of "Haaye Allah", i.e.
denoting bashfulness, shyness etc.
>
> In the song the words don't mean anythig at all. I think Majrooh just
> wanted to create a Pashtu-esque setting ... maybe the story of the
> movie has something to do with Pashtu/Pathans.
As I stated in my earlier post, the dancer/singer
(KumKum) is trying to entice or lure the servants
and they are Pathans, wearing typical Pathan dresses.
Afzal
> Zafar
Afzal A. Khan
I remember this song ("Khan Kabul se aaya ji...")
quite well. I agree that it was a masterpiece in
its own way. It was extremely popular.
In Marathi Lavanis, one usually hears a refrain,
"jee jee re jee, jee jee re jee". Does it mean
"HaaN bhai haan" ? It is possible that the Pashtu
"vaee" may also have a similar sense, i.e. "oh yes,
oh yes". Just thinking aloud.
Afzal
naniwadekar
"Afzal A. Khan" wrote -
>
> As I stated in my earlier post, the dancer/singer
> (KumKum) is trying to entice or lure the servants
> and they are Pathans, wearing typical Pathan dresses.
>
I could try a search on google-images but can anyone
provide links to photos of Cuckoo and Kumkum,
assuming they are different, not that there is any reason
why they might be the same person. Also, was there
any actress with a close-sounding name in 1950s.
I remember reading something in Kalra-ji's(?) post last
month which confused me a bit. (I don't watch films
and know next to nothing about either Cuckoo
or Kumkum. Did someone mention one Kukku
recently? Who was she?)
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
Cuckoo and KumKum were different persons, both
essentially dancers. While KumKum was a Muslim,
Cuckoo was Jewish. Cuckoo died around the late
seventies or early eighties --- of cancer.
Have you seen "Barsaat" ? And the Mukesh/Lata
tandem song : "Patli kamar hai, tirchhi nazar
hai" ? The girl dancing with Prem Nath in the
Club is Cuckoo.
KumKum appeared in a great many films, notable
being "Funtoosh", "Mirza Ghalib", "Ujala",
"Basant Bahaar", "Naya Andaz" and "Kohinoor".
Afzal
naniwadekar
"Afzal A. Khan" wrote -
>
> essentially dancers. While KumKum was a Muslim,
> Cuckoo was Jewish. Cuckoo died around the late
> seventies or early eighties --- of cancer.
>
> Have you seen "Barsaat" ? And the Mukesh/Lata
> tandem song : "Patli kamar hai, tirchhi nazar
> hai" ? The girl dancing with Prem Nath in the
> Club is Cuckoo.
> KumKum appeared in a great many films, notable
> being "Funtoosh", "Mirza Ghalib", "Ujala",
> "Basant Bahaar", "Naya Andaz" and "Kohinoor".
>
I haven't seen Barsaat. IIRC Shirish Kanekar had
written a sketch on Cuckoo titled 'Darna muhabbat
kar le'. I remembered Kanekar's sketch when I watched
(and suffered through) Andaaz. If that isn't Cuckoo,
my memory is playing tricks.
I did watch (and suffer through) Basant Bahar as recently
as last year but I am damned if I remember a thing in it.
The shallowness of my visual memory is quite bottomless.
- dn
naniwadekar
"Afzal A. Khan" wrote -
>
> "jee jee re jee, jee jee re jee". Does it mean
> "HaaN bhai haan" ? It is possible that the Pashtu
> "vaee" may also have a similar sense, i.e. "oh yes,
> oh yes". Just thinking aloud.
>
Somehow I associate Marathi usage of 'jee' with
respectful address. The main character utters a line
of Lavni and prompts listeners (mostly social elders)
with 'sunaa, jee' , 'okay, jee' , 'I hope you liked it, jee'.
I think these appeals are implicit in that 'jee' and its
origin associates its utterance to the main singer. Often
supporting cast completes a line with 'jee' and that may
create an impression that they are propping up the main
singer as his chamchas or associates.
Urban/Brahminic Marathi does not use the word
'jee' at all, I would say, unlesss in historically
determined contexts like 'Shiva-ji', 'Sambha-ji'.
Do rural or lower caste people use 'jee' the way
it is used in Hindi? I can't decide for myself now.
But let it be noted that Lavni is a rural art-form
and thi soutsider's guesses could be quite wrong.
As a general rule, I have never cared for Lavani.
- dn
Abhay Phadnis
Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote:
Afzal-saab, please read my post carefully: I *have* heard the song carefully
before affirming that it is "ho". My Hindi/Urdu may not be on par with
yours, but I know enough of the language(s) to understand the difference
between "ho" and "ham". To my ears, it sounds like "ho"; I can't make out
any "m" sound there. Why don't *you* listen to the song and see what it
sounds like to you?
Warm regards,
Abhay
Satish Kalra
news:2ve0qkF...@uni-berlin.de...
Which post of mine was it that caused some confusion!
In antoher post, you have mentioned that 'Dar na muhabbat kar le...." has
Cuckoo, and indeed it is she with Nargis in that song. As a matter of
"filmy" fact, the films of the late 40's to the early mid-50's, most Hindi
films would have a dance number by Cuckoo, until Helen replaced her numero
uno postition. There are a few dance/songs in films with Cuckoo and Helen
together. Yahudi's "bechain dil khoyii sii nazar...", and Chalti Ka Naam
Gadi's "ham tumhaare hain zaraa ghar se nikal kar dekh lo...." are the ones
that come readily to my mind.
Cuckoo had a flowing motion in her dances, and her speciality was to sway
her neck and head left to right to left without moving the torso below the
neck. A dance/song picturized on her that I like very much is the one from
Saqi, "dil pehlaa aur pyaar duusaraa teesarii jawaanii...".
Kumkum, on the other hand, had better acting talent (IMO) than Cuckoo or
Helen, though the latter did win the Filmfare award for the Best Supporting
Actress for Lahoo Ke Do Rang, 1979.
Kumkum was the heroine with Kishore Kumar in films like Ganga Ki Lehren, Mr.
X In Bombay, etc. Kohinoor's "madhuban mein raadhikaa naache re..." was
filmed on her, dancing in "competition" to Dilip Kumar's singing.
--
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra
Abhay Phadnis
6f3cbf2.04110...@posting.google.com, "paabagil"
<paab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> What does "daGaa vai" mean?
>
> "daGaa" is a Pashtu word, meaning "this one!", i.e., with an emphasis
> on "this". An Urdu equivalent would be "yehee", cf. "ye".
>
> "va_ii" is again Pashtu. It's an expression of pain, sorrow, surprise,
> etc., akin to "uff", "haa_e", etc.
>
> In the song the words don't mean anythig at all. I think Majrooh just
> wanted to create a Pashtu-esque setting ... maybe the story of the
> movie has something to do with Pashtu/Pathans.
>
> Chi-kunam is not used in Pashtu.
Many thanks to Zafar (and to Urzungsaab and Afzalsaab and Ravindra) for the
information regarding daGaa, va_ii, and - most importantly - "che kunam"!
I had assumed that the song referred to the Urdu "daGaa" (treachery or
betrayal). Indeed, I am still not sure the Pashtu daGaa is intended: if it
were, the Hindi/Urdu equivalent would be
ye hii ye hii haay haay haay
ho ga_ii tum se ulfat ho ga_ii
???
I prefer to think of it as the Urdu "daGaa", with the implicit subtext being
that her heart has betrayed her by falling in love with this guy who won't
give her time of day. In either case, the word stays the same, so it doesn't
really matter in the context of the lyrics post.
But va_ii va_ii va_ii does matter! I had, again, assumed that "vai vai vai"
was used as a generic exclamation, just I had assumed it was in the "Yahudi"
song 'merii jaa.N merii jaa.N". I had no idea that the word meant anything
in any language! There is obviously a case for correcting "vai" to va_ii
(even though I still hear it as the former!).
Warm regards,
Abhay
Afzal A. Khan
> Abhay
I don't think the word has been used in its
Urdu context (i.e. "dhoka" or betrayal). The
entire ambience of the song is Pashtu/Pathan.
Note the music accompaniment, with the "Daf"
being prominent, even in the picturization.
The style of dancing also relates to the same
sort of background. I don't quite recall the
situation in the film/story, but (IIRC)
KumKum is trying to enter the house and has to
beguile the servants to do so, hence the song.
The servants (as already mentioned by me) are
Pathans and dressed in typical Pathani attire,
along with a saafa/kulaah.
Please don't be misguided by the use of "vaee"
in the "Yahudi" song. One could argue whether
such a "Pashtu" expression would have been current
in Roman times. But this would be specious.
Because, the entire musical score, dialogues etc.
do not pertain to Roman period practices !
There are quite a few "Pathan" songs in our films
where one can listen to this word. How about the
songs in "Qurbani" and "Zanjeer" ? There is a song
at the back of my mind where, in one of the lines,
the word occurs about 4 or 5 times at the beginning.
But I acan't pinpoint it. Maybe a reference to
"giitaayan" would help. Amongst Pathans, I think the
word is used very commonly, like "KHo~che".
I think Mr. Urzung Khan should step in and clear the
issue for all of us (referring to the Pashtu words).
Afzal
UVR
>
> Abhay Phadnis wrote:
>
>>betrayal). Indeed, I am still not sure the Pashtu daGaa is intended: if it
>>were, the Hindi/Urdu equivalent would be
>>
>>ye hii ye hii haay haay haay
>>ho ga_ii tum se ulfat ho ga_ii
>>
>>???
>>
>>I prefer to think of it as the Urdu "daGaa", with the implicit subtext being
>>that her heart has betrayed her by falling in love with this guy who won't
>>give her time of day. In either case, the word stays the same, so it doesn't
>>really matter in the context of the lyrics post.
>
> Urdu context (i.e. "dhoka" or betrayal). The
> entire ambience of the song is Pashtu/Pathan.
I don't think it makes a difference. The word 'daGha' means
'deceit' in Pushto as well. Look at this:
http://tinyurl.com/4s5e7
It's the same word in all three languages -- Persian, Pushto
or Urdu.
Likewise, "va_ii" exists in all three as well, with the same
meaning: "oh!"
It would appear, therefore, that the expression "daGhaa daGhaa
va_ii va_ii va_ii" could mean exactly the same, no matter how
you slice it.
> I think Mr. Urzung Khan should step in and clear the
> issue for all of us (referring to the Pashtu words).
That'll be great.
-UVR.
UVR
> Abhay Phadnis <aphadnis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<BDB85767.1164%aphadnis...@hotmail.com>...
>
>>I prefer to think of it as the Urdu "daGaa", with the implicit subtext being
>>that her heart has betrayed her by falling in love with this guy who won't
>>give her time of day. In either case, the word stays the same, so it doesn't
>>really matter in the context of the lyrics post.
>
> Pashtu. Apart from the context of the song and its picturization that
> Afzal saahib has provided, the stress pattern of the word is also
> distinctly Pashtu. If you listen carefully, the "Urdu" daGhaa is
> prounounced *da-GAA*, i.e., stressing the second syllable. On the
> other hand, as is the practice with many Pashtu words, in this song
> the first syllable of the word has been stressed, *DA-gaa*. See?
You may be right about what the word in the song really is, but
I don't really hear Lata saying "daGhaa" any differently here than,
say, in "zamaanaa Kharaab hai *daGhaa* nahii.n denaa [Baradari --
bhulaa nahii.n denaa]). Then again, if you say Majrooh didn't
know Pashto, Chitragupt probably didn't either, and Lata sure as
heck doesn't know it, it doesn't make sense to put too much stock
in how the word is pronounced in the song, right? It *could* be
the word you say -- only, pronounced, umm, 'inexactly' -- or it
could not.
Mind you, I'm NOT saying you're wrong about the word. Just that
we mustn't use Lata's pronunciation as proof (either way).
> :)) Maybe an extended case of malapropism? One likely scenario:
> Majrooh did not know Pashtu -- he had just picked up a few words from
> here and there -- but he wanted to create a Pashtu setting in this
> song nevertheless. So the words are there and they are meaningful in
> their own right, but in the context of the song they are employed just
> to produce the *sound* of Pashtu, not to "mean" anything.
Right, it's all part of the stereotypical Pashtoon ambience they
are trying to create.
> Pershaps a similar case is "ramaiyya vasta vaiyya" from Shri 420,
> where the phrase is meaningful in its own right but not in the context
> of the song.
You don't say! :) So, what does it mean (in its own right) and
why doesn't it make sense in the context of the song?
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
"Afzal A. Khan" wrote:
> There are quite a few "Pathan" songs in our films
> where one can listen to this word. How about the
> songs in "Qurbani" and "Zanjeer" ? There is a song
> at the back of my mind where, in one of the lines,
> the word occurs about 4 or 5 times at the beginning.
> But I can't pinpoint it.
Following up :
I have bow recollected the above song. It is from the
earlier (circa 1950) film "Sargam", stg. Rehana and
Raj Kapoor :
Mausam-e-bahaar yaar, dil hai gulzaar yaar,
Aa ja aa ja ek baar, aa ja aa ja ek baar,
yaar vaee vaee, yaar vaee vaee, yaar vaee vaee yaar
Later in the song, Chitalkar joins in and then the word
is repeated 5-6 times in quick succession. The singer and
the chorus are in a celebratory mood, as the rescue team
is sighted.
Afzal
urzung khan
I don't know Pashto, so I can't say whether this line
actually means something or is just a filler. I suggested
va_ii in place of vai as it sounds to me just like that
and it also rhyms with ga_ii. In this connection I also
had in mind two other songs where va_ii has been used in
abundance. One from Sargam you have quoted and the other
from Zabak:
Lata. tujh ko mai.n jaan gaii maan yaa naa maan va_ii va_ii
Rafi. ye to hai aap kaa ehsaan merii jaan va_ii va_ii
Lata. va_ii va_ii va_ii va_ii va_ii
Rafi. va_ii va_ii va_ii va_ii va_ii
-urzung khan
Afzal A. Khan
paabagil wrote:
> > >>I prefer to think of it as the Urdu "daGaa"
> > > Nice point that you raise, Abhay saahib. But IMO, the word is still
> > > Pashtu. Apart from the context of the song and its picturization that
> > > Afzal saahib has provided, the stress pattern of the word is also
> > > distinctly Pashtu. If you listen carefully, the "Urdu" daGhaa is
> > > prounounced *da-GAA*, i.e., stressing the second syllable. On the
> > > other hand, as is the practice with many Pashtu words, in this song
> > > the first syllable of the word has been stressed, *DA-gaa*. See?
> >
> > You may be right about what the word in the song really is, but
> > I don't really hear Lata saying "daGhaa" any differently here than,
> > say, in "zamaanaa Kharaab hai *daGhaa* nahii.n denaa [Baradari --
> > bhulaa nahii.n denaa]).
>
> Okay, but haven't you noticed that she first sings "DAgaa" and then
> corrects herself:
>
> DAgaa nahii.n denaa jii daGAA nahii.n denaa
>
> and then repeats the same thing latter
>
> "BHUlaa" nahii.n denaa jii "bhuLAA" nahii.n denaa
>
> Sure nobody speaks "BHUlla", no?
Frankly, I am a little amazed that Zafar Saheb
remembers these little nuances from songs that are
nearly fifty years old. "Baaraadari" is a 1955 film.
And, what is more, he remembers them correctly.
It is not uncommon that words/pronunciations can get
a little distorted in keeping with the rhyme or other
requirements of the song. But, all things considered, I
think the "Baaraadari" example is not quite relevant
here. In the Chitragupt-composed song, the accent is
definitely on the first syllable, which is in keeping
with the Pashtu/Pathan ambience of the song.
>
> > Then again, if you say Majrooh didn't
> > know Pashto, Chitragupt probably didn't either, and Lata sure as
> > heck doesn't know it, it doesn't make sense to put too much stock
> > in how the word is pronounced in the song, right? It *could* be
> > the word you say -- only, pronounced, umm, 'inexactly' -- or it
> > could not.
>
> But Majrooh's former chowkeedar was a Pathan and he (Majrooh) picked
> up from him this word and its typically Pashtu stress pattern, and
> used in such a way in his lyrics that it can only be sung one way :)
I am sure the "info" about Majrooh's (former) chowkidar
is furnished only in a light vein. But the argument
whether Lata knew Pashtu seems flawed. Many a time,
a singer is required to sing a few words or even an
entire line which is in an unfamiliar language.
There are many examples of this type. For instance,
the "...din haiN payaare pyaare" song from "Kali Ghata".
Bina Rai plays a girl from France, hence a few French
words right at the beginning. I don't think Lata was
unaware that she was singing a few French words; she must
surely have tried her best to pronounce them as accurately
as possible. Another example occurs in a song from
"Sangam", where the words are probably in the German
language. (It was discussed in RMIM sometime back.)
In "Ek Musaafir Ek Hasina", Asha sings a refrain in
Faarsi "zabaan-e-yaar~man turki...". At the time of
recording this song (from "KTLR"), I am sure there must have
been a discussion invloving the lyricist, the Music Director
and the singer about the situation of the sing in the film
and how certain words were to be pronounced.
>
> > Mind you, I'm NOT saying you're wrong about the word. Just that
> > we mustn't use Lata's pronunciation as proof (either way).
>
> But what ARE you saying? Hermenutically speaking, any meaning can be
> derived from a text ... so long as it is supported by the
> text/context.
If Zafar Saheb is NOT wrong about the word, isn't
there a distinct possibility that he COULD be right
about it ?
I think Lata does place the stress on the first
syllable, which (as already explained) is in
keeping with the Pashtu context of the word/song.
So, there doesn't seem any harm in accepting that
Lata's pronunciation does help, "hermeneutically
speaking".
>
> > > Majrooh wanted to create a Pashtu setting in this
> > > song . So the words are there and they are meaningful in
> > > their own right, but in the context of the song they are employed just
> > > to produce the *sound* of Pashtu, not to "mean" anything.
> >
> > Right, it's all part of the stereotypical Pashtoon ambience they
> > are trying to create.
>
> Yep, that's precisely what I'm striving (quite ineffectively, it
> appears) to put across.
Since both parties are agreed on this point, where is the
dispute ? {The matter can be settled out of court !}
> Zafar
>
> PS. meree taraf se tamaam dostoN ko Diwali kee shubh kaamanaa'eN aur
> Eid kee dillee mubaarak-baad.
From my side too. In fact I had already conveyed
Diwali greetings to RMIMers in another thread.
Afzal
Abhay Phadnis
6f3cbf2.04111...@posting.google.com, "paabagil"
<paab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
>> You may be right about what the word in the song really is, but
>> I don't really hear Lata saying "daGhaa" any differently here than,
>> say, in "zamaanaa Kharaab hai *daGhaa* nahii.n denaa [Baradari --
>> bhulaa nahii.n denaa]).
>
> corrects herself:
>
> DAgaa nahii.n denaa jii daGAA nahii.n denaa
>
> and then repeats the same thing latter
>
> "BHUlaa" nahii.n denaa jii "bhuLAA" nahii.n denaa
>
Methinks you are missing the key element here: the tune. Keeping the tune
intact, try stressing "Gaa" the first time and "da" the second time, or
"laa" the first time and "bhu" the second time. The difference in stress is
clearly dictated by the tune.
Warm regards,
Abhay
Sudhir
her performance in:
BARSAAT / Patli Qamar Hair, Tirchhi Nazar Hai (dance only, no
singing)
Mr & Mrs 55 / Neele Aasmani (very little dancing. She lip-synched
this song)
I have not seen the film, but seems quite probable that the song:
Mere Ghungharwale Baal O Raja / Film: PARDES
was picturized on her.
Sudhir
-------------------
Few songs which were
picturized on her,
"Satish Kalra" <Satish...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<MP2dnWIZU7R...@comcast.com>...
UVR
> UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<10p70db...@corp.supernews.com>...
>
>>paabagil wrote at 11/10/2004 10:34 PM US-Pacific:
>>
>>>If you listen carefully, the "Urdu" daGhaa is
>>>prounounced *da-GAA*, i.e., stressing the second syllable. On the
>>>other hand, as is the practice with many Pashtu words, in this song
>>>the first syllable of the word has been stressed, *DA-gaa*. See?
>>
>>You may be right about what the word in the song really is, but
>>I don't really hear Lata saying "daGhaa" any differently here than,
>>say, in "zamaanaa Kharaab hai *daGhaa* nahii.n denaa [Baradari --
>>bhulaa nahii.n denaa]).
>
> corrects herself:
>
> DAgaa nahii.n denaa jii daGAA nahii.n denaa
Right. So then, to go by your arguments thus far, Lata must be
using the Pashto word in the first instance and the Urdu word in
the next. Correct?
> and then repeats the same thing latter
>
> "BHUlaa" nahii.n denaa jii "bhuLAA" nahii.n denaa
>
> Sure nobody speaks "BHUlla", no?
Disingenuous. The point I am making was this: the fact that
Lata stresses the first syllable of "*da*Ghaa" in the Kali Topi
Laal Rumaal song does NOT indicate conclusively that she is
using the Pushto word. She has stressed the same syllable
elsewhere, where the daGhaa used is unquestionably the Urdu one.
>>Mind you, I'm NOT saying you're wrong about the word. Just that
>>we mustn't use Lata's pronunciation as proof (either way).
>
> But what ARE you saying? Hermenutically speaking, any meaning can be
> derived from a text ... so long as it is supported by the
> text/context.
Cute. Read again. I am saying *exactly* what I wrote above --
we (you!) mustn't use Lata's pronunciation as proof that the word
used is, or isn't, Pashto. There is simply not enough evidence
she knew how to pronounce the word. If she did end up enunciating
it the Pashto way, it's pure happenstance.
And as for "hermenutically" (sic), how can you, who have even cast
a less than approbatory eye on persons like Platts in the past,
ignore the antecedents of the very character enunciating this word?
Aren't you ignoring one very important fact about the song? This:
while the ambience is Pashtoon, the fellows standing around as
Kumkum dances are dressed in Pathans' clothes, Kumkum's character
herself is *_not_ Pashtoon*! She is an Indian belle, who is
demonstrably Pashto-ignorant -- even using 'che kunam', a Persian
phrase, thinking it's the language those fellows speak! So, when
she doesn't know the language, how can one put any stock in the
way she's saying 'daGhaa'?
That's what I'm saying: the evidence you're using is not credible.
As Afzal saahib would say, in legal circles, evidence that is not
credible cannot be used to prove a contention.
>>>Pershaps a similar case is "ramaiyya vasta vaiyya" from Shri 420,
>>>where the phrase is meaningful in its own right but not in the context
>>>of the song.
>>
>>You don't say! :) So, what does it mean (in its own right) and
>>why doesn't it make sense in the context of the song?
>
> *You* don't say that! You know it's meaningful. Don't you? ;)
No. I know it's meaningLESS -- the phrase you've written above.
That's why I asked. You seem to know of a meaning, in some
context, so please enlighten me.
> PS. meree taraf se tamaam dostoN ko Diwali kee shubh kaamanaa'eN aur
> Eid kee dillee mubaarak-baad.
My sincerest wishes to you, too.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
Sudhir wrote:
>
> Cuckoo appeared in many films until mid-50s. One can watch
> her performance in:
>
> BARSAAT / Patli Qamar Hair, Tirchhi Nazar Hai (dance only, no
> singing)
>
> Mr & Mrs 55 / Neele Aasmani (very little dancing. She lip-synched
> this song)
This was a sort of Club or Party song where she sings at
the mike, hence no dacing. A comparable song would be
"Aage bhee jaane na tu...." in "Waqt".
>
> I have not seen the film, but seems quite probable that the song:
>
> Mere Ghungharwale Baal O Raja / Film: PARDES
>
> was picturized on her.
Not "probable" --- this was definitely filmed
on her. A beautiful song where she danced with
great abandon. She had unusually long arms, which
she used most effectively. A fine composition by
the late Ghulam Mohammed.
Afzal
UVR
>
> requirements of the song. But, all things considered, I
> think the "Baaraadari" example is not quite relevant
> here. In the Chitragupt-composed song, the accent is
> definitely on the first syllable, which is in keeping
> with the Pashtu/Pathan ambience of the song.
Why is it not relevant? Zaf was using Lata's enunciation of "daGhaa"
a *specific* way, to prove that it's the Pashto word. I am showing
that in the Baradari song, she has enunciated "daGhaa" in the same
(or in so substantially similar as to be indistinguishable) manner.
Thus, my contention that Lata's pronunciation is not conclusive
evidence of the Pashto-ness of the word is strengthened by the
Baradari example. How do you say it is irrelevant?
> In "Ek Musaafir Ek Hasina", Asha sings a refrain in
> Faarsi "zabaan-e-yaar~man turki...".
But she doesn't sing it with the typical "Farsi" accent, does she?
Oh, but of course, the word 'turki' is enunciated exactly as a
Farsi person would. So would you brook arguments that said "that
this is a Farsi phrase is proved by the fact that Asha pronounces
the word 'turki' exactly as it's pronounced in Farsi?
> At the time of
> recording this song (from "KTLR"), I am sure there must have
> been a discussion invloving the lyricist, the Music Director
> and the singer about the situation of the sing in the film
> and how certain words were to be pronounced.
There may well have been such a discussion, but when none of the
three parties -- MD, lyricist, singer -- knew Pashto, how would
they have known how to pronounce the word, "Pashto-ically"?
>>>Mind you, I'm NOT saying you're wrong about the word. Just that
>>>we mustn't use Lata's pronunciation as proof (either way).
>>
>>But what ARE you saying? Hermenutically speaking, any meaning can be
>>derived from a text ... so long as it is supported by the
>>text/context.
>
> If Zafar Saheb is NOT wrong about the word, isn't
> there a distinct possibility that he COULD be right
> about it ?
Eh? Et tu, Afzal saahib? I must say I am thoroughly disappointed
in your reading comprehension skills. :) Read again. Did I say
Zafar saahib is not wrong? No. I said "I'm not saying that [he
is] wrong". It's not the same thing, is it, now? Surely you have
yourself been in situations where you have been unable to make up
your mind about whether a certain thing was right or wrong -- for
lack of sufficient data?
> I think Lata does place the stress on the first
> syllable, which (as already explained) is in
> keeping with the Pashtu context of the word/song.
> So, there doesn't seem any harm in accepting that
> Lata's pronunciation does help, "hermeneutically
> speaking".
Lata's enunciation is pure happenstance, and cannot be used
as evidence of anything.
>>>Right, it's all part of the stereotypical Pashtoon ambience they
>>>are trying to create.
>>
>>Yep, that's precisely what I'm striving (quite ineffectively, it
>>appears) to put across.
>
> Since both parties are agreed on this point, where is the
> dispute ? {The matter can be settled out of court !}
There *was* no dispute. I was merely taken aback that Zafar saahib,
who is ordinarily *exceedingly* cautious about whom he trusts in
matters of language and pronunciation, elected to advance the totally
coincidental Pashto-like enunciation of the word by Lata as evidence
of his position in this matter. In my opinion, the advancing of this
weak and untenable evidence thoroughly weakens his own credibility in
this case.
-UVR.
naniwadekar
"Afzal A. Khan" wrote -
>
> she used most effectively.
>
Prabhu Ramchandra also had unusually long arms.
Ram-raksha, written by Budhkaushik Rishi, calls
him ajaanubaahu. I think the word refers to a person
whose hands extend upto knees. Ram was supposed
to be very sexy, though overshadowed by Krishna
in that department. So is Maria Sharapova. Yesterday
I saw a photo of her, on a Wimbledon Court, and it
struck me how unusually long her arms look/are.
I couldn't bring up the photo in a quick google-search
but try this one instead :
http://www.tennis-x.com/story/2004-11-12/d.php
I hope she, like Navratilova, plays to a ripe old age
and regales us for years. Like Cuckoo and Ram,
Sharapova uses her arms quite effectively.
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
naniwadekar wrote:
>
> "Afzal A. Khan" wrote -
> >
> > She had unusually long arms, which
> > she used most effectively.
> >
>
> Prabhu Ramchandra also had unusually long arms.
> Ram-raksha, written by Budhkaushik Rishi, calls
> him ajaanubaahu. I think the word refers to a person
> whose hands extend upto knees. Ram was supposed
> to be very sexy, though overshadowed by Krishna
> in that department. So is Maria Sharapova.
You mean "very sexy" or "having long arms" ? !
Or maybe both ? !
> I hope she, like Navratilova, plays to a ripe old age
> and regales us for years.
As far as looks are concerned, I don't think Sharapova
should be compared to Navaratilova. Their playing styles
are so different. And competition has become so intense
these days, with so many talented newcomers coming up,
it is doubtful whether anybody but anybody can have a
career like that of Navaratilova.
Afzal
>
> - dn
Afzal A. Khan
UVR wrote:
>
> Afzal A. Khan wrote at 11/12/2004 11:02 AM US-Pacific:
> >
> > requirements of the song. But, all things considered, I
> > think the "Baaraadari" example is not quite relevant
> > here. In the Chitragupt-composed song, the accent is
> > definitely on the first syllable, which is in keeping
> > with the Pashtu/Pathan ambience of the song.
>
> Why is it not relevant? Zaf was using Lata's enunciation of "daGhaa"
> a *specific* way, to prove that it's the Pashto word. I am showing
> that in the Baradari song, she has enunciated "daGhaa" in the same
> (or in so substantially similar as to be indistinguishable) manner.
> Thus, my contention that Lata's pronunciation is not conclusive
> evidence of the Pashto-ness of the word is strengthened by the
> Baradari example. How do you say it is irrelevant?
For a simple reason. In the "Baaraadari" song, the
word "daGHaa" has been used in such a way that
it is easy to deduce that it has been used in the
sense of "betrayal" --> "daGHaa naheeN dena...".
It is an integral part of a complete sentence.
It is not a stand-alone word, as in the case of
the "KTLR" song. Can an ordinary listener straightway
deduce that "daGHa" here is used in the sense of
"betrayal" or "dhoka" ?
>
> > In "Ek Musaafir Ek Hasina", Asha sings a refrain in
> > Faarsi "zabaan-e-yaar~man turki...".
>
> But she doesn't sing it with the typical "Farsi" accent, does she?
> Oh, but of course, the word 'turki' is enunciated exactly as a
> Farsi person would. So would you brook arguments that said "that
> this is a Farsi phrase is proved by the fact that Asha pronounces
> the word 'turki' exactly as it's pronounced in Farsi?
What you are doing here is quoting a remark out of
context. I shall quote the full remarks here :
---------------------------------------------------------
But the argument
whether Lata knew Pashtu seems flawed. Many a time,
a singer is required to sing a few words or even an
entire line which is in an unfamiliar language.
There are many examples of this type. For instance,
the "...din haiN payaare pyaare" song from "Kali Ghata".
Bina Rai plays a girl from France, hence a few French
words right at the beginning. I don't think Lata was
unaware that she was singing a few French words; she must
surely have tried her best to pronounce them as accurately
as possible. Another example occurs in a song from
"Sangam", where the words are probably in the German
language. (It was discussed in RMIM sometime back.)
In "Ek Musaafir Ek Hasina", Asha sings a refrain in
Faarsi "zabaan-e-yaar~man turki...".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
To my knowledge, Lata doesn't know French. But she did
sing the French words in the "Kali Ghata" song. She may
or may not have pronounced them absolutely correctly.
Also, Asha (AFAIK) does not know Faarsi. All that I was
trying to say that singers are generally aware when they
are required to sing some words in a different or un -
familiar language and it is logical to imagine that some
thinking definitely goes into how the words are to be
pronounced. It is in that sense that I had remarked that
the argument (about Lata not knowing Pashtu) seems rather
flawed. That is to say, it is immaterial whether Lata
knew Pashtu. Even without knowing the language, she could
definitely make an attempt to pronounce a (single) Pashtu
word. Her unfamiliarity with the language does not mean
that she understood this word as an Urdu word.
>
> > At the time of
> > recording this song (from "KTLR"), I am sure there must have
> > been a discussion invloving the lyricist, the Music Director
> > and the singer about the situation of the sing in the film
> > and how certain words were to be pronounced.
>
> There may well have been such a discussion, but when none of the
> three parties -- MD, lyricist, singer -- knew Pashto, how would
> they have known how to pronounce the word, "Pashto-ically"?
I have lived in Bombay for a number of years. In those
days, there were a large number of Pathan (i.e. Pashtu -
speaking) people living there, who were working mostly
in the dockyards and as watchmen. Of course, they knew
and spoke ordinary Urdu. I have myself interacted with
some of them. Assuming that none of the three (MD,
lyricist, singer) knew Pashtu, do you think they could
not have had some interaction with other Pashtu-knowing
people ? There was a lyricist Saba Afghani who knew
Pashtu quite well and was connected with the film
industry. And, after all, it is not such a difficult
word (like "hermeneutically" !) that only a very few
"intellectuals" would be likely to know it. Didn't
I quote another commonly used Pashtu word "KHo~che" ?
Pathans do have a habit of pronouncing some ordinary
words too in a distinctive style. I will give a speciafic
example. In the film "Ek Phool Chaar KaaNTe" (Sunil
Dutt and Waheeda Rehman), there is a scene where Sunil
Dutt enters a building and finds some people trying to
molest Waheeda. He grapples with them and gets beaten.
When he comes to, a Pathan watchman tells him that it was
all a "Darama" rehearsal. You see, he doesn't pronounce
it as "Drama", but as "Darama", which I think is a
distinctly Pathan/Pashtu style pronunciation. And, for all
that I know, the "bit-player" who acted as the Pathan
watchman may not have known Pashtu.
>
> >>>Mind you, I'm NOT saying you're wrong about the word. Just that
> >>>we mustn't use Lata's pronunciation as proof (either way).
> >>
> >>But what ARE you saying? Hermenutically speaking, any meaning can be
> >>derived from a text ... so long as it is supported by the
> >>text/context.
> >
> > If Zafar Saheb is NOT wrong about the word, isn't
> > there a distinct possibility that he COULD be right
> > about it ?
>
> Eh? Et tu, Afzal saahib? I must say I am thoroughly disappointed
> in your reading comprehension skills. :) Read again. Did I say
> Zafar saahib is not wrong? No. I said "I'm not saying that [he
> is] wrong". It's not the same thing, is it, now? Surely you have
> yourself been in situations where you have been unable to make up
> your mind about whether a certain thing was right or wrong -- for
> lack of sufficient data?
I have absolutely no hesitation in confessing that my
reading/comprehension skills were never all that refined.
And may even have deteriorated further with advancing
age. But I do have a question :
"I am not saying that you are wrong".
I beg to submit that an ordinary reader of English
would construe that sentence to mean that : "You are
(or, at least, may be) right". And that was why I
talked about the "distinct possibility" rather than
"absolute certainty". OTOH, if you were absolutely
sure that someone was wrong, you would certainly have
said so. And if the data is insufficient, the
certainty of someone being absolutely and unequivo-
cally wrong is surely ruled out. And, conversely,
the possibility of that persob being right definitely
exists.
>
> > I think Lata does place the stress on the first
> > syllable, which (as already explained) is in
> > keeping with the Pashtu context of the word/song.
> > So, there doesn't seem any harm in accepting that
> > Lata's pronunciation does help, "hermeneutically
> > speaking".
>
> Lata's enunciation is pure happenstance, and cannot be used
> as evidence of anything.
So if Lata pronounces the French words (in the
"Kali Ghata" song) correctly, that too can be a
"pure happenstance" and people should not think
that those could indeed be French words !
>
> >>>Right, it's all part of the stereotypical Pashtoon ambience they
> >>>are trying to create.
> >>
> >>Yep, that's precisely what I'm striving (quite ineffectively, it
> >>appears) to put across.
> >
> > Since both parties are agreed on this point, where is the
> > dispute ? {The matter can be settled out of court !}
>
> There *was* no dispute. I was merely taken aback that Zafar saahib,
> who is ordinarily *exceedingly* cautious about whom he trusts in
> matters of language and pronunciation, elected to advance the totally
> coincidental Pashto-like enunciation of the word by Lata as evidence
> of his position in this matter. In my opinion, the advancing of this
> weak and untenable evidence thoroughly weakens his own credibility in
> this case.
So there is no dispute. You too accept that the word
is indeed Pashtu --- except that Lata's "pashtu-like"
enunciation is purely coincidental !
You agree that, in your own words, "it is all part of
the stereotypical Pashtoon ambience they are trying to
create". Yet if you still insist that Lata's
enunciation is "purely coincidental" and a "happen -
stance", it is your credibility that would be open to
question.
You have made some observations in another post in
reply to Zafar Saheb. I propose to deal with those
in a separate rejoinder to that post.
Afzal
> -UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
UVR wrote:
>
> paabagil wrote at 11/12/2004 9:54 AM US-Pacific:
> >>>If you listen carefully, the "Urdu" daGhaa is
> >>>prounounced *da-GAA*, i.e., stressing the second syllable. On the
> >>>other hand, as is the practice with many Pashtu words, in this song
> >>>the first syllable of the word has been stressed, *DA-gaa*. See?
> >>
> >>You may be right about what the word in the song really is, but
> >>I don't really hear Lata saying "daGhaa" any differently here than,
> >>say, in "zamaanaa Kharaab hai *daGhaa* nahii.n denaa [Baradari --
> >>bhulaa nahii.n denaa]).
> >
> > Okay, but haven't you noticed that she first sings "DAgaa" and then
> > corrects herself:
> >
> > DAgaa nahii.n denaa jii daGAA nahii.n denaa
>
> Right. So then, to go by your arguments thus far, Lata must be
> using the Pashto word in the first instance and the Urdu word in
> the next. Correct?
>
> > and then repeats the same thing latter
> >
> > "BHUlaa" nahii.n denaa jii "bhuLAA" nahii.n denaa
> >
> > Sure nobody speaks "BHUlla", no?
>
> Disingenuous. The point I am making was this: the fact that
> Lata stresses the first syllable of "*da*Ghaa" in the Kali Topi
> Laal Rumaal song does NOT indicate conclusively that she is
> using the Pushto word. She has stressed the same syllable
> elsewhere, where the daGhaa used is unquestionably the Urdu one.
Elsewhere I have stated that the example of the
"Baaraadari" song (IMHO) is not quite relevant and
I have also explained why I think it to be irrelevant.
Be that as it may.....
UVR argues that in the "Baaraadari" song, Lata
pronounces the first "daGHa" in the same fashion as
she does in the KTLR song. The second "daGHaa", he
agrees, is pronounced differently, as in Urdu
(in the sense of "dhoka" or "betrayal"). Now, at both
places, the word is used in the same identical sense :
"betrayal" or "dhoka". Isn't it possible that the
first (essentially wrong) pronunciation was merely to
make the metre and melody go smoothly ? Other examples
of this nature can be cited. In an "Abhiman" song, one
line goes "luTe koi man ka nagar ban ke mera....". If
the singer were to pronounce it as "LooTe koi...", the
fluency would be gone. It is quite obvious that the
first "daGHa" (in the "B.." song) is neither meant to be
nor sung as a Pashtu word. OTOH, in thw KTLR song, the
word is repeated twice and, even then, it is just a stand -
alone expression, not linked to any other sentence or
statement. So, Zafar Saheb's assertion that it is meant to
be and also sung as a Pashtu word seems more credible.
> Aren't you ignoring one very important fact about the song? This:
> while the ambience is Pashtoon, the fellows standing around as
> Kumkum dances are dressed in Pathans' clothes, Kumkum's character
> herself is *_not_ Pashtoon*! She is an Indian belle, who is
> demonstrably Pashto-ignorant -- even using 'che kunam', a Persian
> phrase, thinking it's the language those fellows speak! So, when
> she doesn't know the language, how can one put any stock in the
> way she's saying 'daGhaa'?
This is strange logic. Indian films abound in roles
and characters like these --- where an actor or actress
enacts a role as a different type of individual. In
"Azad", Dilip Kumar plays a dacoit and also a second
role as a typical Muslim nobleman, on home turf (so to
say), be it a "pulao" feast or a qawwali. In KTLR,
KumKum may be "an Indian" belle, but she is required
to beguile Pathan servants, hence the Pashtu-style
song, along with "daf" etc. "Qurbani" is a comparatively
recent film (1980). When Feroze Khan and Vinod Khanna
(disguised as Pathans) sing the qawwali "Qurbaani, qurbaani,
Allah ko pyaari hai qurbaani", can we say that these
two people are non-Pathans and, therefore, the qawwali
is not a "Pathan-style" qawwali ?
And is it your contention that KumKum (i.e. her
character in the film) is demonstrably Pashtu-ignorant
but she did know Persian, as demonstrated by the use of
the expression "che~kunam" ? !!
And you seem to be under the impression that Pashtu-
knowing people do not know Persian (Faarsi). This is
not correct. In Afghanistan and Pakistan's NWFP,
practically all Pashtoons speak Persian quite well.
As an aside, I had been in Delhi around the time of
the 1977 General Elections (when Indira Gandhi lost).
On my return journey, there was an Afghan couple in the
same compartment (visiting India as tourists) who didn't
know a word of Urdu/hindi or English. The TTE was
having an impossible time with them till I came to the
rescue, and the facilitating factor was Faarsi, which
the couple spoke fluently and which I was able to translate
to the satisfaction of the TTE.
>
> That's what I'm saying: the evidence you're using is not credible.
> As Afzal saahib would say, in legal circles, evidence that is not
> credible cannot be used to prove a contention.
As "legal practices" have also been cited, let me submit
that it is possible to decide difficult matters on the
basis of "circumstantial evidence" or on the principle
of "preponderance of probability". On both counts,
I feel the word "daGHa" is indisputably Pashtu and
Lata's enunciation is a supportive circumstance.
Afzal
> -UVR.
Sudhir
I wrote 'probable', because I have not seen the film. Shooting
arrows in the sky and hoping strike a 'Murg Musalam' is not my
style.
Sudhir
P.S.: Add-On note on BARSAAT song
The film version is longer (about 5:19 minutes) than the available 78 rpm
version. I find it more appealing than the record version. There
is a long instrumental portion, prior to the vocals.
------------------
"Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
Ashok
paab...@hotmail.com says...
> Hermenutically speaking, any meaning can be
>derived from a text ... so long as it is supported by the
>text/context.
Well, that's a schizophrenic sentence, if there is one: It can't
make up its mind! It starts with "any" and then come the ellipsis
and the rider. It reminds one of the statement attributed to
Henry Ford: "Any customer can have a car painted any color that
he wants ... so long as it is black."
It used to be the dominant assumption that texts have determinate
meanings, but the dogma was called into question by (the recently
deceased French philosopher) Jacques Derrida.
And to think that the person who recently argued that "text is
everything, context nothing" now glibly uses the construction
text/context!
Ashok
>Zafar
Abhay Jain
"Ashok" <adhar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:30c65uF...@uni-berlin.de...
> In article <6f3cbf2.04111...@posting.google.com>,
> paab...@hotmail.com says...
>
>> Hermenutically speaking, any meaning can be
>>derived from a text ... so long as it is supported by the
>>text/context.
>
> Well, that's a schizophrenic sentence, if there is one: It can't
> make up its mind! It starts with "any" and then come the ellipsis
> and the rider. It reminds one of the statement attributed to
> Henry Ford: "Any customer can have a car painted any color that
> he wants ... so long as it is black."
>
> It used to be the dominant assumption that texts have determinate
> meanings, but the dogma was called into question by (the recently
> deceased French philosopher) Jacques Derrida.
Text have determinate meaning?
Go figure the following from Donald Rumsfeld.
"As we know, there are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns.
That is to say we know there are some
things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
the ones we don't know we don't know."
AJ
Vijay Kumar K
> Abhay Phadnis wrote:
> >
> > On 11/9/04 11:49 PM, in article JP-dnTzmxqK...@giganews.com,
> > "Malini" <malin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > >> (jaan jalatii hai nazar aise churaayaa na karo
> > >> ho Gariibo.n ke dukhe dil ko dukhaayaa na karo) \-2
> > >
> > > I always heard it as:
> > >
> > > ham Gariibo.n ....
> >
> > Just heard it again carefully - it is "ho".
>
> > Abhay
>
>
> IIRC, it is indeed "ham", as Maliniji has suggested.
>
> "Ho", at the beginning of a line is like an alaap,
> calculated to "prolong" the singing. Here the first
> word "h..." is quite short. {Please give it another
> listen.} And, in the context of the song, a short
> "ho" does not make sense, whereas "hum" does.
>
>
> Afzal
A pretty long thread over a "ho"-"hum" song...
Vijay
Ashok
>
>> "Ho", at the beginning of a line is like an alaap,
>> calculated to "prolong" the singing. Here the first
>> word "h..." is quite short. {Please give it another
>> listen.} And, in the context of the song, a short
>> "ho" does not make sense, whereas "hum" does.
>>
>>
>> Afzal
>
>A pretty long thread over a "ho"-"hum" song...
>
>Vijay
This observation makes it all worth it!
Ashok
paabagil
> In article <6f3cbf2.04111...@posting.google.com>,
> paab...@hotmail.com says...
>
> > Hermenutically speaking, any meaning can be
> >derived from a text ... so long as it is supported by the
> >text/context.
>
> Well, that's a schizophrenic sentence, if there is one: It can't
> make up its mind! It starts with "any" and then come the ellipsis
> and the rider. It reminds one of the statement attributed to
> Henry Ford: "Any customer can have a car painted any color that
> he wants ... so long as it is black."
> And to think that the person who recently argued that "text is
> everything, context nothing" now glibly uses the construction
> text/context!
I've always averred, ala MH Askari, that the "theories" I propose from
time to time are no more than my biases which I feel no shame in
getting rid of with the passage of time. However, in this instance,
there is no change of mind on my part. Pillory me if I have ever said
"context is nothing". In fact, I am the only Urdu writer I know of who
has applied the theories of Intertextuality and New Historicism on
relevant Urdu texts, two modern critical theories that rely heavily on
the context of a literary text.
I sure did, nevertheless, write about the New Criticism's/Russian
Formalist's motto "Text is everything" in rejection of the the
authorial intention. However, the New Critics/Formalists would never
forbid you from going from a dense paragraph in a novel to a previous
passage to understand it better. That's called the reference to the
the context. Let me define the word.
Context:
1. the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede
and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
2. the circumstances relevant to something under consideration.
(Concise Oxford Dictionary, 9th ed.)
Without the context, every sentece would be a chaotic jumble of
sounds.
In the song in question, daGaa daGaa ..., I argued that the words
might be Pashtu from this sort of context, i.e.:
1. the peculiar pronunciation of the word
2. the close proximity of another Pashtu-sounding word (vai vai)
3. the typcial Pashtu/Persian-like music with heavy "daff" beats
4. Afzal saahib's description of the scene with Pashtu setting
All these points are relevant "contexts" of the "text" of the song,
which help you in comprehending it.
(That was precisely the mistake UVR saahib was making ... divesting
the word from its context. In fact, he was in such a dire dearth of
arguments that he spent most of the time squabbling over a typo!)
> It used to be the dominant assumption that texts have determinate
> meanings, but the dogma was called into question by (the recently
> deceased French philosopher) Jacques Derrida.
Yeah, that's part of Derrida's deconstruction: we can never be sure
what a text really means because the meanings are forever
deferred/postponed and that no stable meanings exist at all for any
text. The (controversial) theory dwells mostly on exposing the
limitations of language, rather than dealing with pure literary
matters. For example, it fails to tell good literature from bad
literature.
So, applying Derrida, I wonder, on daGaa daGaa vai vai is as good as
killing a mosquito with a Daisy-Cutter!
Zafar
> Ashok
UVR
>
> (That was precisely the mistake UVR saahib was making ... divesting
> the word from its context. In fact, he was in such a dire dearth of
> arguments that he spent most of the time squabbling over a typo!)
You've just demonstrated that you missed the whole point of my
argument. Let me try once more (and this will be the last time,
I promise).
Your hypothesis was two-fold: The 'scene on the screen' (as
described by Afzal saahib) proves that the ambience is Pashto/
Afghani, therefore there little chance that the word 'daGhaa'
in the song is the Pashto word and not its Urdu homonym. So
far so good. You should have stopped here.
But no. You went ahead and suggested that Lata's peculiar
pronunciation of "daGhaa" is PROOF that the word in the song
is definitely the Pashto word. This (and only this) what I
am objecting to. My position is that Lata's pronunciation
of the word is NOT proof of anything.
Observations:
(1) There is no reason to expect that anyone primarily associated
with training Lata for the song (the MD, the lyricist) knew Pashto.
You have not refuted this point, nor has Afzal saahib. Speculating
that there may have been someone else present who could train Lata,
or quoting examples from a song in which Lata has (mis)pronounced
French words *cannot* be an argument.
(2) Lata's peculiar pronunciation of the word "daGhaa" is not unique
to this song. I produced an example of another song where she has
used the SAME pronunciation but where there is no trace of any Pashto
element.
You have not disputed that Lata's pronunciation of daGha in the
latter (Baradari) song is identical, nor has Afzal saahib. OTOH,
you weakly suggested that the pronunciation in the Baradari song
might have something to do with the tune, or that the word might
have been mispronounced (I'm not clear which) -- why couldn't
the same be true for the KTRL song?
Conclusion:
Lata's peculiar pronunciation cannot be used as conclusive proof
that the word in the song is Pashto. The context, the ambience,
the situation, et cetera may all provide strong circumstantial
evidence as to that conclusion, but not Lata's pronunciation.
That is *all* I was saying.
Incidentally, what you seem to be missing about your own position
is the fact that you are using the ambience of the song to justify
your contention about Lata's pronunciation being Pashto, *NOT*
the other way around.
-UVR.
UVR
UVR wrote at 11/24/2004 6:17 AM US-Pacific:
>
> Your hypothesis was two-fold: The 'scene on the screen' (as
> described by Afzal saahib) proves that the ambience is Pashto/
> Afghani, therefore there little chance that the word 'daGhaa'
> in the song is the Pashto word and not its Urdu homonym. So
> far so good. You should have stopped here.
I meant to write, "therefore there is little chance that the word
... is the *Urdu* word and not its *Pashto* homonym".
Sticky fingers, etc.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
Somehow this thread refuses to die down !
I think all of us are agreed (Zafar Saheb, UVR Saheb and
Yours Truly) that the song (as picturised in the film) has
a Pashto/Afghan ambience. I may add that this is only a
simulated ambience, but this matters little. We are also
agreed that the word in question has been used as a
Pashto word.
The only difference of opinion, as far as I can discern,
lies in determining whether Lata's pronunciation of the
word does (or does not) help in identifying the word as
having been used as a Pashto word.
Now, the arguments can fly back and forth (till the cows
come home) whether the word has been pronounced by Lata
in the two songs in an identical fashion or not. Zafar
Saheb believes there is a difference between the two,
however little or subtle. UVR Saheb seems to think that
the two pronunciations are identical. And that is the
basis of his argument that L's pronunciation does not in
any way lead to the conclusion that the word in KTRL song
has been used as a Pashto word.
Although the two songs are comparatively old (49 and
45 years respectively), somehow I remember both (and
more particularly, their picturization). I am inclined
to believe that the two pronunciations are not identical.
Mind you, it is not my contention that Lata knowingly
pronounced the KTRL word as a Pashto word --- she could
have (as per somebody's suggestion) or might not.
Although the difference between the two pronunciations
may be minuscule, I think it is there. One way to
determine this would be to "scan" the "length" of the
two words as pronounced in the two songs. With so much
technical discussion going on in this forum about using
different softwares to download and record songs etc.,
it may perhaps be possible to do this "scanning", somewhat
in the manner you advance a film (video) frame by frame,
and determine the word's "length". To my ears, the word
in the "Baaraadari" song is ever so slightly elongated,
whereas (in the KTRL song) it is slightly shorter and
pronounced/repeated in a staccato fashion.
It bears repetition that I am only terming the two
pronunciations as ever so slightly different. Nothing
more -- and nothing less.
There has been so much of verbiage on this issue but,
just consider the "citations" quoted in the two
messages from Ashok and Zafar Saheb :
Henry Ford
M. H. Askari
Intertextuality
New Historicism
New Criticism
Russian Formalists
Oxford dictionary
Jacques Derrida
Derrida's deconstruction
I hope UVR Saheb (and others) would treat my simple
explanation with some indulgence !
And it is certainly not a "ho" "hum" song !
Afzal
paabagil
> UVR wrote:
> >
> > paabagil wrote at 11/23/2004 10:14 AM US-Pacific:
> > >
> > > (That was precisely the mistake UVR saahib was making ... divesting
> > > the word from its context. In fact, he was in such a dire dearth of
> > > arguments that he spent most of the time squabbling over a typo!)
> >
> > You've just demonstrated that you missed the whole point of my
> > argument. Let me try once more (and this will be the last time,
> > I promise).
> >
> > Your hypothesis was two-fold: The 'scene on the screen' (as
> > described by Afzal saahib) proves that the ambience is Pashto/
> > Afghani, therefore there little chance that the word 'daGhaa'
> > in the song is the Pashto word and not its Urdu homonym. So
> > far so good. You should have stopped here.
> >
> > But no. You went ahead and suggested that Lata's peculiar
> > pronunciation of "daGhaa" is PROOF that the word in the song
> > is definitely the Pashto word. This (and only this) what I
> > am objecting to. My position is that Lata's pronunciation
> > of the word is NOT proof of anything.
Since the thread has become rather like a "shaitaan kee aant", small
wonder that you forgot what I had actually written about Lata's
pronunciation. So to refresh memories, I quote from my post I wrote to
Abhay saahib [stresses added]:
> Nice point that you raise, Abhay saahib. But IMO, the word is still
> Pashtu. *Apart from* the context of the song and its picturization that
> Afzal saahib has provided, the stress pattern of the word is *also*
> distinctly Pashtu.
See? I never used the word "PROOF" and have never claimed that the
word is Pashtu *only* because it sounds Pashtu. What I failed to
convey properly was that the pronunciation of the word is *one* of the
CLUES to its linguistic pedigree. Those other clues were already
discussed, exhaustively, before this affair of stress pattern of the
word surfaced.
> > Observations:
> >
> > (1) There is no reason to expect that anyone primarily associated
> > with training Lata for the song (the MD, the lyricist) knew Pashto.
> >
> > You have not refuted this point, nor has Afzal saahib. Speculating
> > that there may have been someone else present who could train Lata,
> > or quoting examples from a song in which Lata has (mis)pronounced
> > French words *cannot* be an argument.
> >
> > (2) Lata's peculiar pronunciation of the word "daGhaa" is not unique
> > to this song. I produced an example of another song where she has
> > used the SAME pronunciation but where there is no trace of any Pashto
> > element.
> >
> > You have not disputed that Lata's pronunciation of daGha in the
> > latter (Baradari) song is identical, nor has Afzal saahib. OTOH,
> > you weakly suggested that the pronunciation in the Baradari song
> > might have something to do with the tune, or that the word might
> > have been mispronounced (I'm not clear which) -- why couldn't
> > the same be true for the KTRL song?
But I never said that Baaradari song's word is Pashtu. Did I? And you
know why? Because the evidence was inconclusive: there wasn't any
supporting
evidence whatsoever. This is why I stress that context is paramount.
The pronunciation of the two words is similar but not identical. I
wonder if there is any other Pashtu knowing RMIMer (your humble
servant is a proficient speaker) who could confirm that the
Baaradari's daGhaa doesn't somehow seem Pashtu. Perhaps Lata is not
uttering the first syllable as forcibly as is the norm with the Pashtu
accent.
> Although the difference between the two pronunciations
> may be minuscule, I think it is there. One way to
> determine this would be to "scan" the "length" of the
> two words as pronounced in the two songs. With so much
> technical discussion going on in this forum about using
> different softwares to download and record songs etc.,
> it may perhaps be possible to do this "scanning", somewhat
> in the manner you advance a film (video) frame by frame,
> and determine the word's "length". To my ears, the word
> in the "Baaraadari" song is ever so slightly elongated,
> whereas (in the KTRL song) it is slightly shorter and
> pronounced/repeated in a staccato fashion.
Perhaps you know about softwares employed in modern linguistic
science. Recently, one such software was used in a Pakistani
University (FAST, Lahore) to determine, among many other things,
whether native Urdu speakers pronounce the Urdu "vaav" similarly to
English W or V sound, and that if there is any difference between the
"vaav-s" in words that begin with a vaav (e.g., vaakeel) or ones that
have the letter inside a word (e.g., kavaakib). I'll talk to the said
University people to see if a student want to write a PhD dissertation
on "daGhaa daGhaa vai vai" :)
Zafar
Ashok
>
>...........................Pillory me if I have ever said
>"context is nothing".
Well, here's what you said on the Ghalib-hamaam thread just
a while ago:
<<
I'm not sure how the name (Bahadur Shah Zafar) and the date (Nov 23,
1853) *add* to the aesthetic pleasure -- if any -- the she'er is
supposed to provide to the reader. Couldn't it be any king or any
nawwab (say Kalb Ali Khan or, for that matter, the British Resident to
Delhi), and any date (say July 19, 1844)?
The rest is manifest from the text (rather than the context) of the
she'er
>>
>In fact, I am the only Urdu writer I know of who
>has applied the theories of Intertextuality and New Historicism on
>relevant Urdu texts, two modern critical theories that rely heavily on
>the context of a literary text.
Strange juxtaposition. New Historicism is a theory alright, but
there is no theory known as Intertextuality, the capitalization
notwithstanding. "intertextuality" is not a theory. It's a
feature of a reading and many practise it and it's not material
that many of the might be unaware of the description.
>I sure did, nevertheless, write about the New Criticism's/Russian
>Formalist's motto "Text is everything" in rejection of the the
>authorial intention. However, the New Critics/Formalists would never
>forbid you from going from a dense paragraph in a novel to a previous
>passage to understand it better. That's called the reference to the
>the context. Let me define the word.
>
>Context:
>1. the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede
>and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
>2. the circumstances relevant to something under consideration.
>(Concise Oxford Dictionary, 9th ed.)
>
>Without the context, every sentece would be a chaotic jumble of
>sounds.
You certainly use context in the first sense above, but it
is not clear that you do so in the second sense.
>So, applying Derrida, I wonder, on daGaa daGaa vai vai is as good as
>killing a mosquito with a Daisy-Cutter!
>Zafar
Aah, "daisy-cutter"! If one needed proof that context is
important! The only meaning I knew of the expression when
I read your reference related to cricket: daisy-cutter is
a ball that is bowled (or hit) all along the ground, e.g.,
Chappell's "stinking underarm".
I had to google to find out what you might mean. Looks
like this'd do:
<<
The BLU-82B/C-130 weapon system, nicknamed Commando Vault in
Vietnam and Daisy Cutter in Afghanistan, is a high altitude
delivery of 15,000 pound conventional bomb, delivered from an
MC-130 since it is far too heavy for the bomb racks on any
mber or attack aircraft. Originally designed to create an
instant clearing in the jungle, it has been used in Afghanistan
as an anti-personnel weapon and as an intimidation weapon
because of its very large lethal radius (variously reported
as 300-900 feet) combined with flash and sound visible at
long distances. It is the largest conventional bomb in
existence but is less than one thousandth the power of
the Hiroshima nuclear bomb.
>>
Well, let me say that, in terms of arms escalation, the
decisive step was bringing in "hermeneutically". After
that, tossing in Derrida was a minor step.
Ashok
PS: google also came up with an interesting
anti-war poem on Daisy Cutter:
Daisy, Daisy
give me the head of John the Baptist
or another bearded fanatic
The Taliban favor the hirsute
but we are good Christian folk
and our chosen are smooth-chinned
Daisy, Daisy
immolate the hairy ones
cleanse their ethnic dust of
hens, children, terrorists and unseen wives
vaporize their souls, their
spleens, eyeballs, tongues and
tender parts
collect the charred bone fragments
for the charity of the Red Cross
for the Cross is our symbol
We may not get our man,
but by God,
Daisy,
we’ll get someone
Cricfan
> Aah, "daisy-cutter"! If one needed proof that context is
> important! The only meaning I knew of the expression when
> I read your reference related to cricket: daisy-cutter is
> a ball that is bowled (or hit) all along the ground, e.g.,
> Chappell's "stinking underarm".
>
> I had to google to find out what you might mean. Looks
> like this'd do:
>
Hey, but you were not far off and the two are related.
Daisy cutter - originally used in the 18th century to describe "horses
that trotted with low steps", this description made its way into
cricket as "a ball that stayed on the ground after being hit".
(Apparently, the word also made it to the baseball lexicon). It
appears that the term has been used for an explosive device as far
back as WW I. Btw, didn't Lyndon Johnson's (in)famous anti-Goldwater
ad have a daisy in it? What is this thing with daisies and war?
An aside - someone mentioned Raamayya Vastavayya in this thread. An
oft-asked quiz question in India goes, "Shanker, Jaikishen &
Shailendra were at a South Indian restaurant in Mumbai when they heard
the manager's call to a waiter and the waiter's reply. Which song was
inspired by this mundane act?" Ans. Raamayya Vastavayya.
Is that question based on fact?
Cheers
Arun
P. S. Trevor Chappell has the unique distinction of performing an
abominable act and still not making it into the cricketing lexicon. We
hear about batsmen being "Mankeded". Why don't we hear about
"Chappelled" or "Levered"? Is it because acts need a minimum number of
repeats before being honored with the founding father's name?