Some Asha songs: need details
vandana...@hotmail.com
sprinkled in the midst of some nice ones. Would love to
get details for these. Asha has added an additional sparkle
to many a potential dull tune.
1) Aaye, aaye re, nanne munne raaja ko nindiya sulaaye
A lovely lori recorded in the 70s or thereabouts.
Beautifully and confidently sung, the song revels in the
maturity that Asha's honeyed voice had attained by then.
2) Ek saans ki dori hai
Ek prem ka bandhan hai
Sung to a child again.
3) Jaaye jahaan meri nazar,
kaliyan wahaan jaaye bikhar,
phir bhi hai dil beqaraar ....
4) Chaaho toh jaan le lo
maalik ho zindagi ke
bandanawaz hum to bande hain bandagi ke
This song's antaras reminds me of some other popular
song, and for some reason, I feel that one is also by Asha.
5) Na yeh berukhi dil bhula paayega
guzarne ko waqt bhale hi guzar jaayega
6) Dhoondhe yasodha chahun ore
chup gaye nand kishore
7) Hone lagi hai raat jawaan jaagte raho
Shamon se uTh rahe hain dhuaan jaagte raho
8) Tujhe mili roshni mujhko andhera
Apna Haath Jagannath : S.D. Burman ???
9) Tum door jaaoge kaise daaman bachaoge kaise
hame tum bhula na sakoge
Apna Haath Jagannath : S.D. Burman ???
10) Sajana mera (haay) jiyara jale
Aa jhoomke badra tale
ek baar tu lag ja gale
Sapan Jagmohan ?? Reminds me of the Do Raaha
song "tumhi rehnuma ho meri zindagi ke" which I am
reasonably fond of.
11) Yeh reshmi andera luT jaane ka aalam
Tum chalna sambhal ke, kuchh behka hai mausam ...
Gorgeous song, simply beautifully sung.
12) O maajhi O maajhi re jaaye kahaan
Nainon mein mere ghata ghan ghor
Quite an unusual song ...sung with chorus.
13) Yeh silsila pyaar se chala
Chalte chalte mera tera sangam huaa ooooo
Doosri Seeta : R.D. Burman ????
Thanks,
Vandana.
p.S.
Devoted kneelers to Kim Il Sung [whoever (s)he is], mindless
monotheists, goddess groupies and others of kindred kidney
can feel free to stuff their inane cracks in a blackhole.
[Hey, I know I am plagiarizing Ashok's, but he didn't have
his article explicitly protected in any way by copyright laws.]
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arunabha shasanka roy
> chup gaye nand kishore
I recall having heard this song . I wonder where ? Confound it, I just
can't recall the film. Someone , please, pleeeeeeease identify it quickly
!
> 10) Sajana mera (haay) jiyara jale
> Aa jhoomke badra tale
> ek baar tu lag ja gale
> Sapan Jagmohan ?? Reminds me of the Do Raaha
> song "tumhi rehnuma ho meri zindagi ke" which I am
> reasonably fond of.
This is from "Gustaakhi Maaf" , MD is(are ?) indeed Sapan Jagmohan. Quite
a delightful comedy, starring Tanuja in a double role, with Sanjeev Kumar.
There's another Asha solo in this film that's nice , a sort of sad song
but I can't recall the words at all.
> 12) O maajhi O maajhi re jaaye kahaan
> Nainon mein mere ghata ghan ghor
> Quite an unusual song ...sung with chorus.
This is there in the "Asha sings for RDB" Golden Collection. Will look it
up, if someone else hasn't identified it by then.
> 13) Yeh silsila pyaar se chala
> Chalte chalte mera tera sangam huaa ooooo
> Doosri Seeta : R.D. Burman ????
This too is in "Asha sings for RDB"
> Devoted kneelers to Kim Il Sung [whoever (s)he is], mindless
> monotheists, goddess groupies and others of kindred kidney
> can feel free to stuff their inane cracks in a blackhole.
:)
Arunabha
vandana...@hotmail.com
set of songs. Curious about one more Asha song which I remember
only vaguely :
"chali re chali re main toh des paraaye
bheegi bheegi akhiyon ....."
Anyone knows?
Thanks in advance,
Vandana.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashok
>
>Thanks to Vish, Snehal and other who mailed me about the previous
>set of songs. Curious about one more Asha song which I remember
>only vaguely :
> "chali re chali re main toh des paraaye
> bheegi bheegi akhiyon ....."
>
>Anyone knows?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Vandana.
It is one of the many hidden gems in the desert-island soundtrack of
Bhart Vyas and Sardar Malik, 'Saranga'. It is perhaps too common, the
great hit songs have obscured the others. HMV adds to the problem by
the usual "selcted songs from ..." (and of course, "some songs may have
been edited"!).
Another song from 'Saranga' that didn't receive its due accolade is the
great Suman solo:
. likh de piyaa kaa naam sakhi ri
Interesting allocation of songs to singers in this soundtrack. The Lata
solos (actually with chorus) are of the chaaloo variety:
. dayaa re dayaa ek kanhaiyaa aa ke chameli ki chhaa.nv me.n
. koi ghar aaegaa (hoom), pyaar jagaaegaa (hoom)
The duet of Lata with Mukesh is also upbeat:
. laagi tum se lagan, kaati (?) chhooTe na
Only her duet with Rafi is a sad song:
. piyaa kaise miloo.n tujh se, mere paa.nv pa.Di zanjeer
duniyaa se hai kyaa shikavaa, meri rooTh gayi taqadeer
On the other hand, the solos by Asha and Suman are tranquil,
sedate, reflective.
Unlike Naushad, Sardar Malik was free from stereotyped and inflexible
thought processes.
Ashok
SKalra902
>
>The duet of Lata with Mukesh is also upbeat:
>
>. laagi tum se lagan, kaati (?) chhooTe na
^^^saathhi
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
ani...@my-dejanews.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
> Unlike Naushad, Sardar Malik was free from stereotyped and inflexible
> thought processes.
>
Was he really? Or was he just following the dictates of the film?
I haven't seen the film, but the choice of singers might very
well depend on who is singing what song in the film. More often than not,
the lead female actor got Lata's voice. Maybe that was the case here too.
Can someone, who has seen the movie, enlighten us on whom the female songs
were picturized on.
Also, this 'stone' thrown at Naushad hits most other MDs at the same time.
I am not trying to defend Naushad here. I don't think he always was very
creative, but he was certainly very competent.
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
vandana...@hotmail.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> > "chali re chali re main toh des paraaye
> > bheegi bheegi akhiyon ....."
> >
>
> It is one of the many hidden gems in the desert-island soundtrack of
> Bhart Vyas and Sardar Malik, 'Saranga'. It is perhaps too common, the
> great hit songs have obscured the others. HMV adds to the problem by
> the usual "selcted songs from ..." (and of course, "some songs may have
> been edited"!).
>
> Another song from 'Saranga' that didn't receive its due accolade is the
> great Suman solo:
>
> . likh de piyaa kaa naam sakhi ri
> [..snip..]
> On the other hand, the solos by Asha and Suman are tranquil,
> sedate, reflective.
> [..snip..]
>
> Ashok
Ashok, thanks for the information. No wonder the Asha song and
the Suman song are back to back on my cassette. Somehow I remembered
"likh de piya ka naam" to be a Geeta song, not a Suman song. So I
pulled out the cassette and listened to it again. Yes, it is
undoubtedly Suman, but a young Suman before her Lata-sound-alike
phase. Reminds me of the first time I heard the Rafi-Suman duet
"Nashe mein hum, nashe mein tum" and thought it was Geeta.
Getting back to "Saranga", the famous song you refer to must be
"Saranga teri yaad mein", there is a Rafi version of it which has
been talked about in RMIM. But isn't the Mukesh classic "haan
diwaana hun main" also from this movie?
Both the Asha & Suman song have been rendered very well by the
artistes and the lyrics are lovely too.
Vandana.
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Hrishi Dixit
ani...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <7bmo8h$2a...@news3.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
> >
> > Unlike Naushad, Sardar Malik was free from stereotyped and inflexible
> > thought processes.
> >
>
> Was he really? Or was he just following the dictates of the film?
> I haven't seen the film, but the choice of singers might very
> well depend on who is singing what song in the film. More often than not,
> the lead female actor got Lata's voice. Maybe that was the case here too.
> Can someone, who has seen the movie, enlighten us on whom the female songs
> were picturized on.
IIRC they are on Jayshree Gadkar. I'm not brave enough to see a movie with
Sudesh Kumar in it, but I recollect seeing some songs (like "saranga teri..") on
video.
I haven't been exposed to Sardar Malik's music enough to analyze the flexibility
(or insularity) of his musical thought processes, but one thing I can say - he
definitely does not seem wedded to (or constrained by) any specific style,
judging from scattered songs of his from "Saranga", "Aab-e-Hayaat", "Chor
Bazaar", etc.
But, perhaps as a direct consequence of this malleability of composition, the
quality of his songs oscillated concomitantly too ; "Aab-e-Hayaat" for instance
does have it's mix of great and not-so-great tracks.
This raises an interesting issue. What would be better- to stay provincially
attached to a musical school and be consistently good but repetitive, or to be
an liberal experimentalist and accept the inevitable risk of fluctuating
quality/appeal that goes with variety ? And then there's the balanced middle,
where greats like Roshan and Anil Biswas live, wherein a distinctive mark or
thread of consistency runs among seemingly disparate compositions, and that
thread is enough to ensure the consistency of quality amidst a wide mosaic of
tunes. In my opinion this is what underlines the true genius of a composer.
..Hrishi
Ashok
>
>In article <7bmo8h$2a...@news3.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
>>
>> Unlike Naushad, Sardar Malik was free from stereotyped and inflexible
>> thought processes.
>>
>
>Was he really? Or was he just following the dictates of the film?
What do you mean, "dictates of the film"?
>I haven't seen the film, but the choice of singers might very
>well depend on who is singing what song in the film. More often than not,
>the lead female actor got Lata's voice.
Oh, that is the dictate of the film! What a novel idea! You are talking
like the music director makes a tune for an arbitrary voice and then
chooses the singer based on the importance of the character on whom it
is picturized! How crude can you get!!
God, don't you have ears? Can't you listen and trust your judgement
about songs?
The accusation that there was favouritism toward Lata is based on much
more sophisticated basis: that music directors composed well-crafted tunes
meant to be sung by Lata; that it's the throw-away songs on which much
effort was not invested that went for other singers.
Just by listening to the soundtracks of the 50s and 60s, one can see that
there is merit in the complaint. One doesn't have to know which actors
lipsynched which song.
'Saranga' is one of the few films that break that mold to some extent.
All the songs of the film are such that the MD has laboured over them.
How many other soundtracks can you think of where Lata sings primarily
the cheerful songs and other female singers get to sing sad, tragic,
contemplative songs?
>Also, this 'stone' thrown at Naushad hits most other MDs at the same time.
If you blunder into the path of a stone thrown without realizing its curve,
all that will happen is you'll get a bloody nose!
You perhaps mean that most MDs followed the market (or what they perceived
was the preferences of the market place, or more like, what was imposed on
them by the producers, who thought they were following the market, etc.).
Perhaps so. After all, the marketplace does include enough jerks that
abjectly and shamelessly grovel in front of their favourite artists.
The reason for singling out Naushad for particular opprobrium where Asha
is concerned is different from the above and should have been obvious
even to you. I remember your follow-ups were present in all their usual
trite and trivial glory in THAT thread. To reiterate: I am criticizing
Naushad because he alone made an aesthetic philosophy out of his prig's
view of the world to substantiate his choices.
>I am not trying to defend Naushad here. I don't think he always was very
>creative, but he was certainly very competent.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Anil P. Hingorani
Calling Naushad very competent follows the principle that the best way
to damning someone is thrugh faint praise! Naushad was far more than
very competent. And I don't know any MD who was always creative.
Ashok
ani...@my-dejanews.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
Hi Ashok,
> >
> >Was he really? Or was he just following the dictates of the film?
>
> What do you mean, "dictates of the film"?
>
> >I haven't seen the film, but the choice of singers might very
> >well depend on who is singing what song in the film. More often than not,
> >the lead female actor got Lata's voice.
>
> Oh, that is the dictate of the film! What a novel idea! You are talking
> like the music director makes a tune for an arbitrary voice and then
> chooses the singer based on the importance of the character on whom it
> is picturized! How crude can you get!!
>
The idea is neither novel nor crude. It is a fact. There are hundreds of
movies where lata got to sing for the lead heroine and other singers got
the rest. This was probably not always the composers choice. I guess you
just derived from my statement what was convenient for you to jump all over.
All I was saying is to heap praises on one MD, you don't need to put other
MDs down. But, I guess that was too much to expect from someone who uses
every opportunity to put down the likes of Naushad and SJ.
> God, don't you have ears? Can't you listen and trust your judgement
> about songs?
>
We can all trust our own judgements. The problem occurs when others don't
seem to understand the simple clause "pasand apni apni, khayaal apna apna"
and try to be judgemental about other opinions.
> The accusation that there was favouritism toward Lata is based on much
> more sophisticated basis: that music directors composed well-crafted tunes
> meant to be sung by Lata; that it's the throw-away songs on which much
> effort was not invested that went for other singers.
>
Sophisticated or just your opinion? And how can you claim for sure that an
MD did not invest much in (what you call)"throw away" songs. How would you
then explain those same composers giving great tunes to other singers? There
are enough great songs by "other" singers that do exist to disprove your
"theory".
> 'Saranga' is one of the few films that break that mold to some extent.
> All the songs of the film are such that the MD has laboured over them.
>
So are you saying most other soundtracks don't appear like the MD laboured
over the songs? Why don't you list the songs from 'saranga' and whom they
were picturized on, so that we can all understand how this mold was broken
(to some extent).
> If you blunder into the path of a stone thrown without realizing its curve,
> all that will happen is you'll get a bloody nose!
>
I prefer a bloody nose to a bloated ego.
> The reason for singling out Naushad for particular opprobrium where Asha
> is concerned is different from the above and should have been obvious
> even to you. I remember your follow-ups were present in all their usual
> trite and trivial glory in THAT thread. To reiterate: I am criticizing
> Naushad because he alone made an aesthetic philosophy out of his prig's
> view of the world to substantiate his choices.
>
And you conveniently forget that I did say how wrong Naushad was to say
such a thing, for not just Asha but for any singer or person.
> Calling Naushad very competent follows the principle that the best way
> to damning someone is thrugh faint praise! Naushad was far more than
> very competent. And I don't know any MD who was always creative.
>
I don't remember using the word "always".
Well, whatever else might have come out of my post, atleast you have accepted
that Naushad was more than "very competent". Can we now try the same with SJ -
who were also quite competent but not very creative.
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
sm...@geocities.com
later .
In article <7c28nl$c...@news3.newsguy.com>,
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> In article <7boqhp$n8k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, ani...@my-dejanews.com says...
> >
> >In article <7bmo8h$2a...@news3.newsguy.com>,
> > ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Unlike Naushad, Sardar Malik was free from stereotyped and inflexible
> >> thought processes.
>
> Oh, that is the dictate of the film! What a novel idea! You are talking
> like the music director makes a tune for an arbitrary voice and then
> chooses the singer based on the importance of the character on whom it
> is picturized! How crude can you get!!
Crude or not, there is some truth in Anil assessment.
> God, don't you have ears? Can't you listen and trust your judgement
> about songs?
>
> The accusation that there was favouritism toward Lata is based on much
> more sophisticated basis: that music directors composed well-crafted tunes
> meant to be sung by Lata; that it's the throw-away songs on which much
> effort was not invested that went for other singers.
> How many other soundtracks can you think of where Lata sings primarily
> the cheerful songs and other female singers get to sing sad, tragic,
> contemplative songs?
Bandini is one that comes to mind right away. It also supports Anil's
hypothesis. I'm sure we can come up with more examples.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> Ashok
Ashok
>
>> What do you mean, "dictates of the film"?
>>
>DUH!
You would have done better to sign off here.
>> God, don't you have ears? Can't you listen and trust your judgement
>> about songs?
>>
>We can all trust our own judgements. The problem occurs when others don't
>seem to understand the simple clause "pasand apni apni, khayaal apna apna"
>and try to be judgemental about other opinions.
Man, can't you read! The point is: key audio judgements can be made just
by listening to the songs, without having to watch the film. It is true
whatever be the nature of your or anyone else's judgement. How philistine
the judgement be is a separate issue.
>>
>So are you saying most other soundtracks don't appear like the MD laboured
>over the songs?
Difficult to deal with people who have just two boxes for brains! Look,
read the sentence with "laboured over ALL the song".
>Why don't you list the songs from 'saranga' and whom they
>were picturized on, so that we can all understand how this mold was broken
>(to some extent).
It is your goddammned theory. So, you do the work your theory calls for
instead of blowing rhetorical hot air.
>> If you blunder into the path of a stone thrown without realizing its curve,
>> all that will happen is you'll get a bloody nose!
>>
>I prefer a bloody nose to a bloated ego.
You have both, plenty!
>>
>And you conveniently forget that I did say how wrong Naushad was to say
>such a thing, for not just Asha but for any singer or person.
Why don't you relate it to why the stone was aimed very specifically?
Say after me: 1 + 1 =2.
>> Calling Naushad very competent follows the principle that the best way
>> to damning someone is thrugh faint praise! Naushad was far more than
>> very competent. And I don't know any MD who was always creative.
>>
>I don't remember using the word "always".
This must really really be the limit! If you "don't remember" your inanities,
they just didn't happen! It was there in your article and in my follow-up.
You have snipped it off and claim you "don't remember". Here, this is
what you wrote:
>I am not trying to defend Naushad here. I don't think he always was very
>creative, but he was certainly very competent.
>Well, whatever else might have come out of my post, atleast you have accepted
>that Naushad was more than "very competent". Can we now try the same with SJ -
>who were also quite competent but not very creative.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Anil P. Hingorani
Read the part about "two boxes" above.
Ashok
ani...@my-dejanews.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> Difficult to deal with people who have just two boxes for brains!
>
Ashok,
So how many boxes(for brains) do "normal" people(like you) have? Just need
to know for my own edification:-)
Geez! Calm down. You are always pissed off at someone or the other. We are
all discussing music here and we all have opinions. Just because someone
doesn't agree with your opinions, doesn't mean you start using abusive
language. Such language only reflects on the uncouth person using it.
However, your overtly melodramatic posts do entertain! Remember, a person
without an iota of humility is a total and absolute waste(IMO), no matter
how much s/he knows. What a shame! Someone I thought was a decent person,
stoops to such low abuse to prove a point, when the same could be done in
a nicer manner. Once again, CALM DOWN! CHILL!
Sorry, to the rest of the group, for non-musical stuff above.
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
vandana...@hotmail.com
when you pompously flaunted your self-professed high and mighty
taste and asked Satish S what he had been smoking lately when he
talked about the 'idlidoo' song. :-) We hope you plan to practice
what you preach?! :-)
Good luck!!
Vandana.
In article <7c61p4$oq4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
vandana...@hotmail.com
> Just a quick note on this interesting discussion. I might jump back into it
> later .
Sami, Please do, I agree it is an interesting discussion. Maybe you can
steer it in the right direction again.
> > >> Unlike Naushad, Sardar Malik was free from stereotyped and inflexible
> > >> thought processes.
>
> >
> > Oh, that is the dictate of the film! What a novel idea! You are talking
> > like the music director makes a tune for an arbitrary voice and then
> > chooses the singer based on the importance of the character on whom it
> > is picturized! How crude can you get!!
>
> Crude or not, there is some truth in Anil assessment.
I think Ashok and Anil were on totally different wavelengths there.
Ashok claims that music directors composed tunes meant to be sung by
Lata and Lata alone. This is what he claims is a more sophisticated
argument than saying that music directors composed N tunes for a film
(regardless of the singer) and then ended up dividing the songs among
Lata and "others" based on who it is going to be picturized on.
> > The accusation that there was favouritism toward Lata is based on much
> > more sophisticated basis: that music directors composed well-crafted tunes
> > meant to be sung by Lata; that it's the throw-away songs on which much
> > effort was not invested that went for other singers.
This statement about 'throw-away' songs also deserves a better look.
Borrowing your phrase - There is some truth in Ashok's assessment.
Anil seemed to go totally tangential to what Ashok was trying to say.
Ofcourse the 'French' used didn't help clarify stuff.
Enough soundtracks have throw-away tunes which seem to have been composed
carelessly in an otherwise stellar lineup. Also usually these songs end
up going to "other" singers and are usually picturized on sidies.
Ofcourse one can come up with plenty of examples to the contrary also,
but the mainstream film-world followed the principle mostly.
For eg. "botal se ek baat chali hai" in "Ghar". There are tons more.
>
> > How many other soundtracks can you think of where Lata sings primarily
> > the cheerful songs and other female singers get to sing sad, tragic,
> > contemplative songs?
>
> Bandini is one that comes to mind right away.
Vish mentioned in an earlier post, the lovely Asha solo in "Shatranj",
"kahin se shaam hote hi sitaare aa hi jaate hain" picturized on
Vijayalakshmi who was the side-heroine while Meena Kumari was the lead.
Again there are more.
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>
Vandana.
Snehal B. Oza
>> Just a quick note on this interesting discussion. I might jump back into it
>> later .
>Sami, Please do, I agree it is an interesting discussion. Maybe you can
>steer it in the right direction again.
Although this makes interesting title for a thread, can we (also) start
(similar) thread on such songs of Asha ? One that I is doing rounds in my mind
for couple of days is this very enjoyable song: 'Sun Didi Sun, Tere Liye Ek
Rishta Aaya Hai' from Manoranjan ?
Sorry for digression
Snehal
neha...@hotmail.com
sne...@sequent.com (Snehal B. Oza) wrote:
> Although this makes interesting title for a thread, can we (also) start
> (similar) thread on such songs of Asha ? One that I is doing rounds in my mind
> for couple of days is this very enjoyable song: 'Sun Didi Sun, Tere Liye Ek
> Rishta Aaya Hai' from Manoranjan ?
Khoobsurat. Though I like the other Asha(piya baawri...)song more,
this song just has the Asha flavour.
--
Neha Desai
vandana...@hotmail.com
> Although this makes interesting title for a thread, can we (also) start
> (similar) thread on such songs of Asha ?
Snehal, don't tempt me !! :-) (I'll feel like a kid let loose in a
sweet shop!!)
Yesterday I was listening to "rangeen baharon se hai gulzar China Town",
title song of "China Town", music by Ravi. The rendition is beautifully
embellished like only Asha can do.
Then there is "yeh rangeen mehafil gulaabi gulaabi, mere dil ka aalam
sharaabi sharaabi" picturized on Helen, music G.S. Kohli.
After the recent ATMJH on the "Phagun" duet, I revisited my "Phagun"
soundtrack, and realized just how much I like "shokh shokh aankhen
tujhko bula rahi hain" ... quintessentially Asha for OP Nayyar.
One could listen to a hundred variations of the same.
[I guess one did afterall! :-)]
"Do boonden saawan ki" by Khaiyyam ...
Then there is an Asha song recorded for me by a die-hard Lata fan, who
just couldn't stop raving about it. The music (I was surprised to learn)
is by Madan Mohan, and the song is "taalam tol kare O rahe pare pare",
and it deserves a post of its own.
Well, there are more.. many many more, and I am bound to get
carried away.
> One that I is doing rounds in my mind
> for couple of days is this very enjoyable song: 'Sun Didi Sun, Tere Liye Ek
> Rishta Aaya Hai' from Manoranjan ?
>
> Sorry for digression
It's a welcome digression ...
Vandana.
>
> Snehal.
===== Help CRY (Child Relief & You) help a child: www.us.cry.org =====
ani...@my-dejanews.com
vandana...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Ashok claims that music directors composed tunes meant to be sung by
> Lata and Lata alone. This is what he claims is a more sophisticated
> argument than saying that music directors composed N tunes for a film
> (regardless of the singer) and then ended up dividing the songs among
> Lata and "others" based on who it is going to be picturized on.
>
The reason for a composer picking a singer for a song could be many.
One of the scenarios (which I think happened in "many" cases) was:
the composer was given the song situation and the artiste it would be
picturized on. Then based on the composer's proclivity, the songs for
the leads would be assigned. If the composer was OPN, the lead songs would
go to Asha and Rafi. If it was SDB, then he would pick Lata and Kishore.
The songs that were not for the leads would then be given to to other singers.
If it was for Helen, the obvious choice was Asha or Geeta, if it was a sad
song it would be Lata, if it was a Guru Dutt film the songs would go to
Geeta...and so on. The bottom line is: a combination of composer's personal
bias and an established singer profile went a long way in determining who was
given the song.
The other scenario is that the composer picked the singer based on the song
itself and the singers ability and range, without much regard to how it was
to be used. This would seem like the most ideal way, but I am not sure how
many composers had the clout to go against the so called popular market
demands. SDB did that quite often for his male solos. He used both Rafi and
Kishore (many times in the same film) for Dev. Also, in 'abhimaan', besides
these two he also used Manhar for Amitabh. Roshan is the other one who "broke
the mold" occasionally. 'hum intezaar karenge' was picturized on Meena K.,
I think. I am not sure if Meena K. was in the song 'kahe tarsaye', but he
used Asha and Usha here, even though the rest of the soundtrack is dominated
by Lata. 'dil hi to hai' is another example.
Another reason could be the tactics that the established singers used to keep
their hold on the system as long as they could. This could certainly cripple
the lesser established composers. I am not sure if this would affect the "big"
composers.
The singers refusal to sing for a composer due to whatever reason also, in
many cases, determined who got to sing the songs. Lata never sang for OPN,
refused to sing for SDB for six years, refused to sing for Ravi for many
years. Also, Lata's refusal to sing songs with objectionable lyrics would
qualify here.
A singer's personal relation with a composer is of importance too. Asha and
OPN were personally involved, as were Lata and CR. MM was Lata's 'rakhi'
brother, as was Jaidev to Asha. Meena Kapoor, Jagjit Kaur, Sudha Malotra etc.
come to mind here too. CR had a whole bunch of compositions that he created
only for Lata, as I am sure OPN did for Asha.
Lastly, the first choice singer could be busy or sick. As in the case of
Lata in 'amar'.
I am sure there could be many other reasons, and I believe a combination of
these is how the songs were assigned to a singer. And we know, more often than
not, Rafi/Kishore and Lata/Asha got the songs.
> This statement about 'throw-away' songs also deserves a better look.
I remember a discussion I had with Ketan Dholakia a while ago. He had said
that a composer treats all his tunes the same way, just like a parent would
his/her kids. In spirit, I agree with that assesment, but in reality I think
bias certainly plays a part. However, I can't imagine a compser 'tanking' a
tune just because it was not significant enough, for whatever reason. What
I would like to know is when does a song become "throw-away". Does the
composer decide that even before s/he composes a tune? If not, the why
would s/he not give it the same attention as the other songs. Or, does the
market performance of the song make it a "throw-away"?
> > Bandini is one that comes to mind right away.
>
> Vish mentioned in an earlier post, the lovely Asha solo in "Shatranj",
> "kahin se shaam hote hi sitaare aa hi jaate hain" picturized on
> Vijayalakshmi who was the side-heroine while Meena Kumari was the lead.
> Again there are more.
>
This just proves the point that composers don't start out thinking this would
be a throw away song if Lata or Asha did not sing it. I have heard just two
Lata songs from 'shatranj', and this Asha song is better than both. Similarly,
Asha's 'sabha se yeh kah do' is better than Lata's 'kadam bahake bahake' from
the same film. Sudha's 'ghir ghir chaaye' from 'naata' is a beautiful song in
a film studded with Lata classics. Can anyone really call this song a
"throw-away"? There a numerous such songs by singers other than Lata/Asha,
to make one wonder about this whole "throw-away" issue.
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
sm...@my-dejanews.com
> > later .
>
> Sami, Please do, I agree it is an interesting discussion. Maybe you can
> steer it in the right direction again.
Well, let's see if I can steer clear of the stones and avoid a bloody nose.
> Ashok claims that music directors composed tunes meant to be sung by
> Lata and Lata alone. This is what he claims is a more sophisticated
> argument than saying that music directors composed N tunes for a film
> (regardless of the singer) and then ended up dividing the songs among
> Lata and "others" based on who it is going to be picturized on.
If I understood Anil correctly, he said that Sardar Mallik may have given
those good songs to a non-Lata singer merely because they were not picturized
on the main heroine and not necessarily because he "was free from stereotyped
and inflexible thought processes".
> > > The accusation that there was favouritism toward Lata is based on much
> > > more sophisticated basis: that music directors composed well-crafted tunes
> > > meant to be sung by Lata; that it's the throw-away songs on which much
> > > effort was not invested that went for other singers.
>
> This statement about 'throw-away' songs also deserves a better look.
> Borrowing your phrase - There is some truth in Ashok's assessment.
Certainly, there is.
> Anil seemed to go totally tangential to what Ashok was trying to say.
On the contrary, I felt that Anil's statement was pertinent. Based on the
discussion so far, there can be 2 reasons why a non-Lata singer got a song
from an MD (or "most MDs" for the sake of the "Objection mi-laaaad" shouting
public). The two reasons are:
1. It's a throw-away song
2. The song is NOT picturized on the main heroine.
Now, Ashok's claim of Sardar Mallik having "broken the mold" would hold true
if he awarded the serious songs to Asha despite them being filmed on the main
heroine. I feel that the MD knows well in advance on whom the song is going
to be picturized and that does play a role in the act of allotting songs to a
particular singer. Many heroines actually insisted that Lata sing for them.
> Enough soundtracks have throw-away tunes which seem to have been composed
> carelessly in an otherwise stellar lineup. Also usually these songs end
> up going to "other" singers and are usually picturized on sidies.
> Ofcourse one can come up with plenty of examples to the contrary also,
> but the mainstream film-world followed the principle mostly.
> For eg. "botal se ek baat chali hai" in "Ghar". There are tons more.
Agree with you completely here. But there are instances where a song has been
awarded to a non-Lata singer only because it is picturized on someone other
than the main heroine. I had mentioned Bandini as an example earlier. Now,
would SDB have given "Ab ke barasů" and "O panchhi pyaareů." (neither of them
a throw-away - in fact each of them better than the Lata solos) to Lata had
they been picturized on Nutan ? We can only surmise about this and
personally, I feel that he would have, irrespective of Burman Dada's public
statements praising Asha.
The examples we ought to look for are the ones in which the secondary heroine
also gets to sing serious songs and then see whether the songs went to Lata or
not. Movies such as Amar would not count because both Madhubala and Nimmi were
established heroines and wouldn't fall into the "secondary" category. It is
relatively difficult to find such examples because serious songs have always
been considered to be more important and therefore almost always went to the
main heroine.
Which brings us back to the question posed by Ashok:
> > > How many other soundtracks can you think of where Lata sings primarily
> > > the cheerful songs and other female singers get to sing sad, tragic,
> > > contemplative songs?
And my question in answer to this question:
How many movies can one think of where the main heroine sings primarily the
cheerful songs and other (secondary) actresses get to sing sad, tragic,
contemplative songs ?
My argument is that if "other" female singers don't have many contemplative
songs, it may be because "other" actresses don't get to sing such songs in
movies. Or in other words, perhaps MDs awarded songs based on who it was
picturized on on the screen. Let me reiterate that I'm presenting this as a
possibility and not claiming that it is true. I hope the junta will come up
will more examples to prove/disprove the following equations:
1. Serious songs = Lata
2. Main heroine = Lata
And may he who has listened to many songs and watched many movies cast the
200th stone. 199 have already be thrown anyway :-)
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... hoping for a good discussion
*****************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Barbaad wafa ka afsaana hum, kis se kahen aur kaise kahen
KHamosh hain lab aur duniya ko askhon ki zubaan maalum nahin
Sahir in "Nikle thhe kahan jaane ke lie, pahunche hain kahan maalum nahin..."
(Certainly not a throw-away!)
*****************************************************************************
Ashok
>Well, let's see if I can steer clear of the stones and avoid a bloody nose.
They act like snowballs toward people who discuss thoughtfully and in
the right spirit.
>> Anil seemed to go totally tangential to what Ashok was trying to say.
>
>On the contrary, I felt that Anil's statement was pertinent. Based on the
>discussion so far, there can be 2 reasons why a non-Lata singer got a song
>from an MD (or "most MDs" for the sake of the "Objection mi-laaaad" shouting
>public). The two reasons are:
>
>1. It's a throw-away song
>2. The song is NOT picturized on the main heroine.
The problem was not about the relevance of the point. One can think of
many other factors that are relevant. For example the budget the producer
is willing to allocate to a song, its recording and picturization. "Mebbe,
this would clarify everything. Mebbe." Sure, if we had this information,
we would know more, although it won't clarify everything, but it would be
silly to suggest that until we obtain this information, one should suspend
discussion of other points. The extra angle might be interesting in its
own right, but the point that is raised, and which can be discussed with
available information is fascinating.
I don't know about other people, but I often get irritated by someone
thoughtlessly weighing in with such "Maybe's", which I find unhelpful
at its best and tiresome most of the time. "Maybe it was this; maybe
it was that. Maybe it will snow, maybe it won't snow. Maybe the song
is about the moon, maybe not. Maybe the Asha-Suman songs were not on
heroines, maby they were. Yak, yak, yak; yuk, yuk, yuk."
Give me a break. It is one thing if Anil knew it for a fact which
songs were picturized on which actress and gave the information. We
could take that into account in the discussion. Sure we'd know a bit
more when we find that information, but I object to attempt to abduct
the thread and the disussion, when the guy has zero or negative value
to add.
After all, this is a music discussion group and not a subset of RAMLI.
Our discussions here are predicated upon the understanding that, while
knowledge of the film in which a song occurs might add to the richness
of the discussion, it is not essential. The songs I have heard far
exceed in number the songs I have seen on the screen. And I don't
think I belong to a very small minority here.
>Now, Ashok's claim of Sardar Mallik having "broken the mold" would hold true
>if he awarded the serious songs to Asha despite them being filmed on the main
>heroine.
I disagree to this extent: your statement is a related but somewhat
different proposition. My proposition is couched purely in audio terms.
Anyone who has heard the relevant songs from 'Saranga' can discuss the
issue. Of course, discussion on the other statement can go on, but it
is not necessary to trample out the point someone has brought up for
discussion.
My sympathies and motivations are also simple: I wish there were more
songs of the following kind that I could listen, regardless who gets
to sing them on the screen: "waqt ne kiyaa", "sabaa se ye keh do",
"zindagi zulm sahi", "tum apne ranj-o-gham", "aap ki yaad aati
rahi raat bhar", "mere nadeem mere hamsafar udaas no ho."
>Which brings us back to the question posed by Ashok:
>
>> > > How many other soundtracks can you think of where Lata sings primarily
>> > > the cheerful songs and other female singers get to sing sad, tragic,
>> > > contemplative songs?
>
>And my question in answer to this question:
>
>How many movies can one think of where the main heroine sings primarily the
>cheerful songs and other (secondary) actresses get to sing sad, tragic,
>contemplative songs ?
Interesting question, but won't do as an answer to my question. Anyway,
read the two questions and decide which belongs to RMIM and which to RAMLI. :)
>My argument is that if "other" female singers don't have many contemplative
>songs, it may be because "other" actresses don't get to sing such songs in
>movies. Or in other words, perhaps MDs awarded songs based on who it was
>picturized on on the screen. Let me reiterate that I'm presenting this as a
>possibility and not claiming that it is true. I hope the junta will come up
>will more examples to prove/disprove the following equations:
>
>1. Serious songs = Lata
>2. Main heroine = Lata
>
>And may he who has listened to many songs and watched many movies cast the
>200th stone. 199 have already be thrown anyway :-)
>
>Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... hoping for a good discussion
Again, I thought you were according equal treatment to both the equations.
Turned out to be false hope: your statement of the qualification to be
fulfilled by the answerer is: listened to many songs AND watched many movies!
Since I qualify only partly, let me confine myself to casting snowballs.
How about the following?
Naushad: Dil Diya Dard Liya
Asha: saavan aaye yaa na aaye
Lata: kyaa rangeen mehfil hai dildaaram, o jaane yaaram (Something ike that)
No idea who lipsynchs the Lata song. For what it's worth, let me observe
that the film is from the period when Lata and Rafi didn't sing toghether.
Shankar-Jaikishan:
Sharada: aayega kaun yahaa.N, kis ko sadaa ye deta hai dil
Lata: is duniya me.n jeena hai to sun lo meri baat
The Lata song is picturized on Helen. I had heard that the Sharda song
wasn't in the film; not sure. The title song, serious and haunting (or
at least meant to be so), is by Lata. Don't know if it is a background
song. I am curious to know how the RAMLIers on RMIM like Sami would deal
with allocation when the song is a background song. If it is good and
by Lata, allocate it to the heroine? :)
Agree that Shankhar-Jaikishan and Sharda might be too special a case!
Roshan: Dil Hi To Hai
I think "tumhaari mast nazar" is the only Lata song. Easily the throw-away
song of the film, which abounds in Asha and Suman beauties. Don't know
the actress(es) involved.
Asha: CR
I think the allocation of songs to Lata and Asha subverts both the equations!
Lata has: "chal chal re kanhaai chhaliyaa" as well as
"tu na aayaa hone lagi shaam re"
Asha has: "chaandaniyaa arz kare" lori as well as
"ina mina Dikaa"
I am not sure of the lori. I believe the other three songs are picturized
on Vyjayanthimala.
Ashok
gant...@hotmail.com
ani...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The bottom line is: a combination of composer's personal
> bias and an established singer profile went a long way in determining who was
> given the song.
The heroines clout also counts.I feel that the leading ladies of the yore
insisted on Lata doing Playback.
Waheeda Rehman (Partly Madhubala, because of OPN and SDB being MD's)seem to be
exceptions as Lata did not dominate their Playback.
Waheeda is Female equivalent of Dev Anand as Lata,Asha,Geeta and Suman K.
sang for her.
The movie "Baat Ek raat Ki" deserves special mention.Lata and Asha sang duets
but the song "Na Tum Hamen Jaano" was sang by Suman K.
In Shagun(Starring Waheeda and her husband Kamaljeet),Suman K. was the main
female playback singer.
SDB being a high profile composer,could have got away with it but what about
Khaiyyam in Shagun.(I dont intend to demean khaiyyam).
Maybe Khaiyyam should also be mentioned along with SDB and Roshan as the MD's
who "broke the mold".
PS:More info on Kamaljeet is welcome.
ani...@my-dejanews.com
gant...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <7cjutt$jcs$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>
> The heroines clout also counts.I feel that the leading ladies of the yore
> insisted on Lata doing Playback.
>
That is a very valid point, which I think Sami also made.
>
> SDB being a high profile composer,could have got away with it but what about
> Khaiyyam in Shagun.(I dont intend to demean khaiyyam).
> Maybe Khaiyyam should also be mentioned along with SDB and Roshan as the MD's
> who "broke the mold".
>
This whole issue of how a composer chose a singer is quite fascinating. If
the only criteria for "breaking the mold" is the choice of the singer, then I
think we can find examples of almost any composer. One notable exception
maybe the genius Salil Chowdhury. Now, what do you do about such a composer,
who had used one main singer. Do we then dismiss him by saying his thought
process was inflexible? Is the choice of singer more important than the other
aspects of a song? SJ and Hemant Kumar too rode on the coattails(or sari
pallu, if you will) of the same singer, to fame. But, as we all agree, Salil
was way above these two composers in his creativity. And how can we conclude
that if the choice of singers is all we look at? What gives? And to add to
the complexity, can we consider Salilda 'breaking the mold' when he gave
Helen songs to Lata too? The two that come to mind are just totally awesome
songs sung mind-blowingly by Lata: 'naam mera Nimmo, mukaam Ludhiyana' and
'woh ek nigah kya milli'. NAH! I think this similar in concept to 'reverse
racism'? Like I said, this whole concept of singer choice is fascinating, but
to judge a composer solely on this choice is very unfair. Also, is "breaking
the mold" really so important?
> PS:More info on Kamaljeet is welcome.
>
Last I heard, he lived in Canada and had started his own business.
neha...@hotmail.com
ani...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> think we can find examples of almost any composer. One notable exception
> maybe the genius Salil Chowdhury. Now, what do you do about such a composer,
> who had used one main singer. Do we then dismiss him by saying his thought
> process was inflexible? Is the choice of singer more important than the other
> aspects of a song? SJ and Hemant Kumar too rode on the coattails(or sari
> pallu, if you will) of the same singer, to fame. But, as we all agree, Salil
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Excuse me!
I dont agree with you and since you say 'all', I object to it. I
respect/enjoy Hemant Kumar more than I do Salil(who I think made songs quite
noisy in his eagerness to make compositions complicated and be recognised as
a genius). Atleast Hemantda almost never compromised on melody aspect of the
song(except in his latter day compositions). I could never understand the
hype built up around Salil, but then I could be a tin-eared philisted for all
I know:))
> racism'? Like I said, this whole concept of singer choice is fascinating, but
> to judge a composer solely on this choice is very unfair. Also, is "breaking
> the mold" really so important?
Apparently to some people it is. It is interesting to read everyone's ideas
and speculations(not to mention that I learn more and more ways of
flaming/insulting people:))
--
Neha Desai
neha...@hotmail.com
neha...@hotmail.com wrote:
> song(except in his latter day compositions). I could never understand the
> hype built up around Salil, but then I could be a tin-eared philisted for all
> I know:))
oopsy-boopsy! That was a major typo and before the tenured nitpickers
jump at this opportunity to pick on me I would like to add an amendment:
'philisted' was supposed to be 'philistine'
:)
--
Neha
Sami Mohammed
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>The problem was not about the relevance of the point. One can think of many
>other factors that are relevant. For example the budget the producer is willing
>to allocate to a song, its recording and picturization. "Mebbe, this would
>clarify everything. Mebbe." Sure, if we had this information, we would know
>more, although it won't clarify everything, but it would be silly to suggest
>that until we obtain this information, one should suspend discussion of other
>points.
There is no need to suspend discussion. Only to suspend judgement until all
facts are available. The unavailability of facts at time t does not mean that
they don't exist.
>The extra angle might be interesting in its own right, but the point that is
>raised, and which can be discussed with available information is fascinating.
It is indeed fascinating and should be discussed. And I don't see how someone
pointing out that an extra angle exists is taking anything away from the
discussion. In fact, refusing to even consider the other angles would, IMHO,
hurt the discussion more.
>I don't know about other people, but I often get irritated by someone
>thoughtlessly weighing in with such "Maybe's", which I find unhelpful at its
>best and tiresome most of the time.
Unfortunately, not everyone can tailor their posts to suit your
idiosyncrasies.
>"Maybe it was this; maybe it was that. Maybe it will snow, maybe it won't
>snow. Maybe the song is about the moon, maybe not. Maybe the Asha-Suman songs
>were not on heroines, maby they were. Yak, yak, yak; yuk, yuk, yuk."
One last "maybe" for you: Maybe the other person's point is worth considering
too.
>Give me a break. It is one thing if Anil knew it for a fact which songs were
>picturized on which actress and gave the information. We could take that into
>account in the discussion. Sure we'd know a bit more when we find that
>information, but I object to attempt to abduct the thread and the disussion,
>when the guy has zero or negative value to add.
I don't see why you find the thread to be so holy as to not allow any
diversions. If people find the thread interesting, they will follow it
irrespective of the diversions. For instance, Snehal responded to Vandana's
"Songs made for Lata only" post with "some songs made for Asha only". But
that didn't kill the thread. In this particular case, I don't consider Anil's
post to be a diversion. He made a point about the picturizations, and if
someone had access to the Saranga video (and the courage to sit through it!),
we would have had an answer and the discussion could have been wrapped up.
Hell, no matter how absurd and outlandish it may sound to you, there's even
an outside chance that your "breaking the mold" theory might have been proved
wrong!
>After all, this is a music discussion group and not a subset of RAMLI. Our
>discussions here are predicated upon the understanding that, while knowledge of
>the film in which a song occurs might add to the richness of the discussion, it
^^^^^^^^
You mean, "MAYBE" the knowledge of the film will add to the richness of the
discussion ? Funny, how you find one term irritating and another one, which
implies the same meaning, convenient to use.
>The songs I have heard far exceed in number the songs I have seen on the
>screen. And I don't think I belong to a very small minority here.
No, you don't. I belong to the same group myself. But I don't see why one
should not tolerate any reference to movies when it is made in relation to
music.
>I disagree to this extent: your statement is a related but somewhat different
>proposition. My proposition is couched purely in audio terms. Anyone who has
>heard the relevant songs from 'Saranga' can discuss the issue. Of course,
>discussion on the other statement can go on, but it is not necessary to trample
>out the point someone has brought up for discussion.
I don't feel that the point was trampled upon in the first place, and
therefore, cannot understand your above comment.
>>And my question in answer to this question:
>>
>> How many movies can one think of where the main heroine sings primarily the
>>cheerful songs and other (secondary) actresses get to sing sad, tragic,
>>contemplative songs ?
>Interesting question, but won't do as an answer to my question. Anyway, read
>the two questions and decide which belongs to RMIM and which to RAMLI. :)
Both belong to RMIM. I don't care about RAMLI.
>Again, I thought you were according equal treatment to both the equations.
>Turned out to be false hope: your statement of the qualification to be
>fulfilled by the answerer is: listened to many songs AND watched many movies!
Well, in order to answer both the questions, that will have to be the
qualification. You can still obtain passing marks by attempting one of them.
>I am curious to know how the RAMLIers on RMIM like Sami would deal with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ouch! That hurts. Your snowball just froze solid. Perhaps, we ought to grade
RMIMers like gasoline. OK, you get to be the Shell Premium with the highest
octane rating. I'm satisfied with my 87 grade.
>allocation when the song is a background song. If it is good and by Lata,
>allocate it to the heroine? :)
Although you claim not to have many movies, but I'm sure you must've watched
enough to know that most background songs do have an actor/actress associated
with them although they don't sing.
> Roshan: Dil Hi To Hai
>I think "tumhaari mast nazar" is the only Lata song. Easily the throw-away song
>of the film, which abounds in Asha and Suman beauties. Don't know the
>actress(es) involved.
All the songs are picturized on Nutan. This would be a case where the serious
song went to a non-Lata singer - Suman Kalyanpur's "Yunhi dil ne chaaha thha
rona rulaana…." Unfortunately, this song was not included in the film (atleast
not in the video that I watched).
I haven't heard (all) the Sharda and Asha songs to comment. Donno about the
picturizations of Dil Diya Dard Liya either.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>Ashok
************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Ya Rab na who samjhe hain na samjhenge meri baat
De aur dil unko, jo na de mujhko zubaan aur
Mirza Naushah in "Hai bas ke har ek unke ishaare me nishaan aur….."
il_...@yahoo.com
> >Now, Ashok's claim of Sardar Mallik having "broken the mold" would hold true
> >if he awarded the serious songs to Asha despite them being filmed on the main
> >heroine.
>
> I disagree to this extent: your statement is a related but somewhat
> different proposition. My proposition is couched purely in audio terms.
> Anyone who has heard the relevant songs from 'Saranga' can discuss the
> issue. Of course, discussion on the other statement can go on, but it
> is not necessary to trample out the point someone has brought up for
> discussion.
In "Saranga", there is a hauntingly beautiful 'bidaai' song
by Asha Bhosle : Chali re chali main to desh paraye
IIRC, there is no comparable Lata solo in the movie.
> How about the following?
>
> Naushad: Dil Diya Dard Liya
> Asha: saavan aaye yaa na aaye
> Lata: kyaa rangeen mehfil hai dildaaram, o jaane yaaram (Something ike that)
The wordings of the second song are exactly as quoted.
The "am" at the end is a Persian addition indicating the
possessive pronoun "me" i.e. "yaaram" would mean "mera yaar".
> No idea who lipsynchs the Lata song. For what it's worth, let me observe
> that the film is from the period when Lata and Rafi didn't sing toghether.
This Lata song "kyaa rangeeN mehfil..." is also picturised on
Waheeda Rehman.
> Roshan: Dil Hi To Hai
>
> I think "tumhaari mast nazar" is the only Lata song. Easily the throw-away
> song of the film, which abounds in Asha and Suman beauties. Don't know
> the actress(es) involved.
Apart from Nutan, I don't think there was any other actress
involved in the movie. Except for the Manna Dey classic :
"Laaga chunri men daaGh..." where the dancer is Padmini
Priyadarshini. This is one situation where the Director and
Raj Kapoor himself did a positive injustice to the song,
by infusing some light, almost comic, gestures thereby
detracting from the seriousness of the song. BTW, the
song in question "Tumhari mast nazar" is also a very melodious
Roshan number and need not be condemned as a "throw-away".
>
> Asha: CR
>
> I think the allocation of songs to Lata and Asha subverts both the equations!
> Lata has: "chal chal re kanhaai chhaliyaa" as well as
> "tu na aayaa hone lagi shaam re"
> Asha has: "chaandaniyaa arz kare" lori as well as
> "ina mina Dikaa"
>
> I am not sure of the lori. I believe the other three songs are picturized
> on Vyjayanthimala.
The lori "chandaniya araj kare.." was picturised on
Minoo Mumtaz. And what a beautiful song that is !
Afzal
>
> Ashok
ani...@my-dejanews.com
> songs of the following kind that I could listen, regardless who gets
> to sing them on the screen: "waqt ne kiyaa", "sabaa se ye keh do",
> "zindagi zulm sahi", "tum apne ranj-o-gham", "aap ki yaad aati
> rahi raat bhar", "mere nadeem mere hamsafar udaas no ho."
>
Maybe I didn't get this right, but aren't you really saying you wish there
were more non-Lata songs of the kind you mention above? For sure there are
many Lata songs of this kind that one can listen to. And, also many non-Lata
songs, for that matter. But since that is a personal choice, I will assume
you havent found many more (than you list) worth listening to.
Bottom line....isn't this really the same old topic that pops up every few
months on RMIM about why Lata got all the "good" songs etc. etc. while the
others were ignored. Maybe we aren't tired of Lata v/s other singers war
yet and still want to second guess all those composers who chose her.
But then, I could be completely off(or tangential, if you will) here and
you probably meant something that I did not get. Whatever the case, your
wish (and sympathies and motivation) do not seem very simple to me:-)
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
......hoping this doesn't disintegrate into yet another "pissing-contest"
Ashok
The two-box CPU with zero-memory buffer strikes again!
(Some nettors had asked about the refrence to "two boxes." Remmber that
on many forms you will see a question, with two boxes provided answers,
e.g., Sex: M or F. You are supposed to tick one and only one of the two
boxes. If you tick both or none, the processor might go haywire. Some
people seem to approach every question with that programming. Question:
Do you like Naushad? TIck one and only one of the two boxes: Yes; No.
If I answer that I have both praise and criticism of Naushad, their
processing circuits seem to get fried!) Let us see what it has brought
this time.
>This whole issue of how a composer chose a singer is quite fascinating. If
>the only criteria for "breaking the mold" is the choice of the singer, then I
>think we can find examples of almost any composer. One notable exception
>maybe the genius Salil Chowdhury. Now, what do you do about such a composer,
>who had used one main singer. Do we then dismiss him by saying his thought
>process was inflexible? Is the choice of singer more important than the other
>aspects of a song?
Don't attribute your shallow thought patterns to me. Who said anything about
the role of choice of singers being "more important than the other" aspects?
The quoted phrases represent your thoght processes, not mine. And don't
muddle the domain of discussion: aspects of a song or aspects of the overall
work of a music director, going over his sundtracks.
>SJ and Hemant Kumar too rode on the coattails(or sari
>pallu, if you will) of the same singer, to fame. But, as we all agree, Salil
>was way above these two composers in his creativity.
Kings are supposed to say "We". I wonder which kind of pople say "We all"
to mean I! Perhaps people with stomach worms? :)
There has been discussion in the past on RMIM about how Hemant Kumar is
one of the most eveh-handed of music directors, when it comes to the range
of his work with Lata, Asha, and Geeta. As regards, Shankar-Jaikishn, it
is not as if Lata was ruling supreme when they came on the scene. Both
Lata and S-J were aspiring newcomers at about the same time and both grew
together in stature. So, the disgusting words you use above (coattails,
"or sari pallu, if you will", aa haa haa, how cute of you) are not called
for.
>And how can we conclude
>that if the choice of singers is all we look at?
Why do you toss in intensifiers like "all" so loosely? It makes your
whole rhetoric ridiculous; to whom are you attributing the clause
"the choice of singers is all we look at"?
>What gives? And to add to
>the complexity, can we consider Salilda 'breaking the mold' when he gave
>Helen songs to Lata too? The two that come to mind are just totally awesome
>songs sung mind-blowingly by Lata: 'naam mera Nimmo, mukaam Ludhiyana' and
>'woh ek nigah kya milli'. NAH! I think this similar in concept to 'reverse
>racism'?
Why don't you listen, instead of thundering like a mouse? If you did,
you will find a very good instance of Salil Chowdury breaking the mold.
I conssier the best song of 'Sapan Suhane' to be the one sung by Sabita
Chowdhury:
. chaand kabhi thaa baaho.n me.n
phool bichhe the raaho.n me.n
If you like, you can keep thundering "but she is his wife, and no
maybe about it, blaah blaah ..".
>Like I said, this whole concept of singer choice is fascinating, but
>to judge a composer solely on this choice is very unfair. Also, is "breaking
>the mold" really so important?
>
>Anil P. Hingorani
Where did "solely" come from? So far, you have been pissing on yourself.
I do consider "range" AN important criterion in rating a music director;
how widely he has ranged over the singing talent available at the time,
as well as the role he played in extending the range of the singers he
worked with. I rate S.D. Burman and Chitragupta very highly in this
regard. (And get that "an" into your head.)
Ashok
Ashok
>
>There is no need to suspend discussion. Only to suspend judgement until all
>facts are available. The unavailability of facts at time t does not mean that
>they don't exist.
More logic-chopping. OK. One will never have "all" facts. Unavailability
of a particular fact at time t does mean you cannot use the unavailable
fact to suport one particular side of the argument! That has been the
problem all along in this thread: the castle with air as foundation that
Anil built about the 'Saranga' songs.
>>I don't know about other people, but I often get irritated by someone
>>thoughtlessly weighing in with such "Maybe's", which I find unhelpful at its
>>best and tiresome most of the time.
>
>Unfortunately, not everyone can tailor their posts to suit your
>idiosyncrasies.
Expecting thoughtfulness is an idiosyncrasy? Then what are indulging and
encouraging thoughtlessness and tiresomeness? Idiocy synchronizations? :)
>One last "maybe" for you: Maybe the other person's point is worth considering
>too.
OK, class. We'll repeat the lesson as many time as needed. Two times one
is two. Take the propositional form: "Maybe p or maybe not p". It is true
whatever value you give to the propositional variable p. It is a tautology,
and as such useless. As an instance, the sentence "Maybe in 'Saranga', the
solos by Asha and Suman were not picturized on the leading lady" has zero
information content. I understand that those who like to talk much, but
have little to say, are very fond of such constructions.
>.......................In this particular case, I don't consider Anil's
>post to be a diversion. He made a point about the picturizations, and if
>someone had access to the Saranga video (and the courage to sit through it!),
>we would have had an answer and the discussion could have been wrapped up.
>Hell, no matter how absurd and outlandish it may sound to you, there's even
>an outside chance that your "breaking the mold" theory might have been proved
>wrong!
OK class, continue with revisions! Say after me, "Two times two is four."
Learn to distinguish between statements expressing observed reality ("Lata
had the upbeat songs, while Asha and Suman had soulful songs.") and
statements purporting to be the explanations (here, "The songs were on
the leading lady, while the Asha and Suman songs were on other
actresses"). Breaking the mold refers to the former and is
indepdent of the second. Now pardon me if I don't pay any attention to
the latter when it is embedded in a "mebbe --, mebbe not --". Maybe, if
the Mughals of Maybe actually do put in some honest fact-finding work for
a change, they might even see their writings taken seriously. (Here, the
maybe and might are there because it is a question of track record.)
>
>>After all, this is a music discussion group and not a subset of RAMLI. Our
>>discussions here are predicated upon the understanding that, while knowledge of
>>the film in which a song occurs might add to the richness of the discussion, it
> ^^^^^^^^
>
>You mean, "MAYBE" the knowledge of the film will add to the richness of the
>discussion ? Funny, how you find one term irritating and another one, which
>implies the same meaning, convenient to use.
It is justified because: It is not the case that knowledge of the film
ALWAYS enriches the discussion. And, it is not the case that the knowledge
of the ilm NEVER enriches the discussion. Now, I would be surprised if you
or even Anil will claim that "the Suman song 'likh ke piyaa ka naam' is
picturized sometimes on the leading lady and in other istances on a side
actrress'! "Two times three is six".
>>The songs I have heard far exceed in number the songs I have seen on the
>>screen. And I don't think I belong to a very small minority here.
>
>No, you don't. I belong to the same group myself. But I don't see why one
>should not tolerate any reference to movies when it is made in relation to
>music.
Intolerant of "any" reference? You seem to be picking up Anil's habit of
using intensifiers that end up making the setnence wrong. I have made
many references to films and pictruization myself on RMIM articles.
Now, it IS true that I don't think much of "maybe, maybe not" references.
>>Again, I thought you were according equal treatment to both the equations.
>>Turned out to be false hope: your statement of the qualification to be
>>fulfilled by the answerer is: listened to many songs AND watched many movies!
>
>Well, in order to answer both the questions, that will have to be the
>qualification. You can still obtain passing marks by attempting one of them.
Picturization knowledge treated as essential to RMIM? If one concentrates
only on the music one can at best hope to get only passing marks? That's
precisely why I described you as RAMLIer at heart!
>>allocation when the song is a background song. If it is good and by Lata,
>>allocate it to the heroine? :)
>
>Although you claim not to have many movies, but I'm sure you must've watched
>enough to know that most background songs do have an actor/actress associated
>with them although they don't sing.
You mean you match the singer of the background song to the artist on the
screen? Let us work out that logic. Here's something I vaguely remember.
At the beginning of film 'Chhaya', in quick succession, Nirupa Roy is windowed
and evicted from her house. She is walking forlornly carrying a toddler. A
background song comes. Rafi is singing
. yaa keh de ham insaan nahi.n, yaa maan jaa tu bhagavaan nahi.n
By your logic, we'll have to assign Rafi as a possible playback singer for
Nirupa Roy!
Sorry, nettors, the discussion has been arid. Let me go out of the topic
of breaking the mold, but still stay within the topic of Sardar Malik, to inject
some musical relevance. The Asha and Suman songs of 'Saranga' do bring
to mind Sardar Malik's use of the same singers in another possibly B-budget
film, 'Madan Manjari'. Asha sings a pognant beauty
. ham apane Gham ko sajaa kar bahaar kar lenge
tere Khayaalo.n ko thoDaa saa pyaar kar lenge
Long ago, someone on RMIM had told me that Anu Malik has a song in a
relatively recent film which starts identically. Does anyone know the P-stats
for that song?
Suman's contribution to 'Madan Manjari' is a melodious duet with her best
male voice partner, Mukesh:
Suman: sun more rasiyaa, sun man bhasiyaa, chooD ke ab nahi.n jaana
Mukesh: pyaar nibhaa_ungaa dil se na jaa_ungaa, mai.n to teraa hi deevaana
A richly, but deftly, orchestrated song, like the ones in 'Saranga'.
I think the following interesting song is also from 'Madan Manjari.' ('I think'
is the same as 'perhaps' and 'maybe'. Here, it means: I am sure it is from
a Sardar Malik film. I think, but I am not 100 percent sure, that it is from
'Madan Manjari'). The song's interest lies in the P-stat realm: it is the on'y
Rafi-Kamal Barot duet I have heard. It is a light-hearted and likable song:
(approximate words)
KB: chhel chhabeelaa rang rangeelaa kaun nagar se aayaa
Rafi: paake (?) haseenaa, dil kaa nageenaa (lagee na?) tere liye mai.n ne laaya
KB: are re re jhooT hai vallaa
Rafi: are re re sach hai vallaa
Sardar Malik is of course well-known to RMIM in connection with the other
Asha masterpiece, the tandem song with Talat from 'Thokar'
. ey Gham e dil kyaa karoo.N, ey wahshat e dil kyaa karoo.N
Ashok
arunabha shasanka roy
> Sorry, nettors, the discussion has been arid. Let me go out of the topic
> of breaking the mold, but still stay within the topic of Sardar Malik, to inject
> some musical relevance. The Asha and Suman songs of 'Saranga' do bring
> to mind Sardar Malik's use of the same singers in another possibly B-budget
> film, 'Madan Manjari'. Asha sings a pognant beauty
>
> . ham apane Gham ko sajaa kar bahaar kar lenge
> tere Khayaalo.n ko thoDaa saa pyaar kar lenge
>
> Long ago, someone on RMIM had told me that Anu Malik has a song in a
> relatively recent film which starts identically. Does anyone know the P-stats
> for that song?
The song is in "The Gentleman" with music "by" (!) Anu Malik . I think the
male singer is SPB. The female playback is probably a South Indian too-
(Chitra ? Kavita ? ) The tune is fair, and, considering it is Anu Malik,
it may be one of his better tunes. However it pales into oblivion when
placed next to the "Madan Manjari" gem.
Other rmim'ers may know more comprehensive P-Stats.
Arunabha
Hemlata N. Khemani
> The song is in "The Gentleman" with music "by" (!) Anu Malik . I think the
> male singer is SPB. The female playback is probably a South Indian too-
It is Sadhna Sargam.
H.
> (Chitra ? Kavita ? ) The tune is fair, and, considering it is Anu Malik,
> it may be one of his better tunes. However it pales into oblivion when
> placed next to the "Madan Manjari" gem.
>
> Other rmim'ers may know more comprehensive P-Stats.
>
> Arunabha
>
>
>
-
Speed gets you nowhere if you're headed the wrong way!
jchakr...@pop.netaddress.com
>
>I dont agree with you and since you say 'all', I object to it. I
>respect/enjoy Hemant Kumar more than I do Salil(who I think made songs quite
>noisy in his eagerness to make compositions complicated and be recognised as
>a genius). Atleast Hemantda almost never compromised on melody aspect of the
>song(except in his latter day compositions). I could never understand the
>hype built up around Salil, but then I could be a tin-eared philisted for all
>I know:))
Some days back, I read one article in RAMLI - "Kaun" should fail. I
haven't seen this movie(Kaun) yet. But it seems that the movie has no
song. And that's the reason, that writer thinks, the movie should
fail. According to him, if a hindi movie does not have any song or a
dance scene, he doesn't like them and they should fail.
I found the same thinking process here. If compositions are
complicated and beyond your comprehension you think they are noisy.
How easily you could call Salil Choudhury a hype!
Secondly, I believe his name should be mentioned with little more
respect( Instead of Salil only, at least refer to him as Salil
Choudhury).
Finally, listen to the song "Mere man ke diye" from Parakh, music by
Salil Choudhury(Hardly any noise, believe me). I feel that song was
made for Lata, and lata only.
Regards,
Joydeep
rdh...@del3.vsnl.net.in
Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
> In article <7cmoij$1g...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
A few of my thoughts on this debate:
> >The problem was not about the relevance of the point. One can think of many
> >other factors that are relevant. For example the budget the producer is
> >willing to allocate to a song, its recording and picturization. "Mebbe, this
> >would clarify everything. Mebbe." Sure, if we had this information, we would
> >know more, although it won't clarify everything, but it would be silly to >
>>suggest that until we obtain this information, one should suspend discussion >
>>of other points.
> There is no need to suspend discussion. Only to suspend judgement until all
> facts are available. The unavailability of facts at time t does not mean that
> they don't exist.
Sami, there's at least one conclusion that one can reach without having to
suspend judgement, no matter how many hidden facts pop up in the years to
come; that conclusion is, as Ashok has already pointed out, that Lata sang
the bulk of the better-crafted tunes, while MDs tended to expend less effort
on tunes they knew were meant for singers other than Lata. The reasons why
this happened help explain why it happened, but certainly don't change the
fact that it happened, neither do they change the result, which is that a
disservice was done both to other singers as well as to Hindi film music.
Specifically, the Lata/heroine vs. Others/non-heroine argument is only part
of the story, even as we observe it in retrospect. My general observation is
that EVEN in cases where the lead-actress lipsynched songs BOTH by Lata and,
say, Asha/Suman, the Asha/Suman songs often tended to be less
challenging/profound/memorable (whatever) than the Lata songs. Now, someone
with access to research vehicles can do a head-count of examples; someone
might even point out exceptions galore. No matter. The exceptions would
confirm the existence of the trend. In other words, I agree with Ashok when
he says that, REGARDLESS of whom the songs were picturized on, Lata got the
better deal in terms of quality compositions.
Both Sami and Anil have offered reasons for this: MD was in love with Late,
producer insisted on Lata, heroine sang "important" songs, etc.. All reasons
are well-taken. Extra-musical compulsions notwithstanding, I doubt if
established MDs would have been, or were, annihilated if they were to have
worked harder on producing more sterling quality songs for other singers. As
it turned out, had it not been for a couple of pro-Asha/Sharda/Geeta/Jagjit
Kaur/Sudha Malhotra forces, or had Lata not refused to sing for or with
people from time to time, we may never have known the extent of range and
ability (or arguably the lack thereof!) of other singers. If OP's
determination to promote Asha did one good thing, it was this: it became
clear that there was practically no kind of song Asha could not sing as well
as Lata.
This OP/Asha result is certainly more fruitful than the result of the
Asha/Lata divide within soundtracks of Lata-phile MDs, where Asha's
possibilites were limited in any case, but so were Lata's. Lata's voice was
used to express a primarily cutesy, virginal, pre-pubescent, or at the most
an adoloscent/romantic female experience, thereby painting her voice into a
corner just as uni-dimensional as the one Asha's voice was painted into. So
Asha did the heavy breathing, the desire, the seduction, the knowing, and all
the other sinful things that nice women aren't supposed to know about. Not
surprising, considering MDs' own moralistic evaluation of voices. If
Naushad's retrogressive prudery could make him say he preferred Lata's voice
because it didn't have the "baazaarupan" of Asha's, no wonder that the
devi/vamp division of cinema reflected in song.
There point I'm making is related to precisely why I think (contrary to what
Anil suggests) that breaking the mold is so important. Nobody expects all
singers to be equal. Likewise, nobody expects them all to get identical
numbers of songs, or even that all singers should be of interchangeable value
as "heroine" voices. If Lata was considered the best, so be it. But to skew
the playing field by being lackadaisical about songs "other" singers were to
sing resulted in lack of adequate possibilities, surprise, challenge,
competition, and most of all, in lack of variety (of voices, styles,
expression, and interpretaion). Not even having an extra few hundred more
well-composed songs sung by Lata makes up for that.
As Ashok points out, the test is not in the picturization, but in the sound.
We continue to listen to the good songs, irrespective of who lipsynched them.
And if "other" singers didn't get to sing as comparable a percentage of them
as Lata did, on what basis do we conclude Lata was the best? Quantity?
Quantity of quality?
Roopa
Anant Rege
jchakr...@pop.netaddress.com wrote in message
<36f49c6b...@news.ramlink.net>...
<snip>
>I found the same thinking process here. If compositions are
>complicated and beyond your comprehension you think they are noisy.
>How easily you could call Salil Choudhury a hype!
>
>Secondly, I believe his name should be mentioned with little more
>respect( Instead of Salil only, at least refer to him as Salil
>Choudhury).
>
>Finally, listen to the song "Mere man ke diye" from Parakh, music by
>Salil Choudhury(Hardly any noise, believe me). I feel that song was
>made for Lata, and lata only.
>
>Regards,
>
>Joydeep
Hi
Many times I tend to call people just by their first name only not because
of any disrespect but I just feel them real close to my heart. People whom
I probably never met but who are associated with many hours of wonderful
memories and happiness in my life. They include artistes, sportsmen, writers
etc. You seem to have different ideas than mine. Anyway, may I know the
reason for your disrespect for Lata Mangeshkar whom you have addressed only
as Lata?
Anant
ani...@my-dejanews.com
Thanks Roopa for a nice and sane discussion. However, all the points you
make have been made before and I agree with most of them. As I pointed out
earlier, this is ONCE AGAIN Lata v/s other singers argument, in a different
garb. Only this time, both Ashok and I seem to not want to understand what
the other is saying.
> This OP/Asha result is certainly more fruitful than the result of the
> Asha/Lata divide within soundtracks of Lata-phile MDs, where Asha's
> possibilites were limited in any case, but so were Lata's.
Good point. I think if OPN could have improved his repertoire by including
Lata, Lata would also have expanded her range by singing for OPN.
> As Ashok points out, the test is not in the picturization, but in the sound.
> We continue to listen to the good songs, irrespective of who lipsynched them.
> And if "other" singers didn't get to sing as comparable a percentage of them
> as Lata did, on what basis do we conclude Lata was the best? Quantity?
> Quantity of quality?
>
Just quality! If quantity was the criteria, Asha would be the winner twice
over.
In my original response to Ashok's post, there were just two points I was
trying to make and they seem to have got lost. First, Ashok was trying to
cover up his personal opinions about Naushad in a "he couldn't see beyond
Lata/Rafi" garb. Many composers are guilty of that, so singling out Naushad
was not right. Second, separation of Hindi 'Film' Music from 'Film' is an
ufair way to judge a composer and use epithets like 'stereotype and
inflexible thought process' based on that. Almost all aspects of a song are
dictated by the Film. Since you say "the test is not in picturization", how
would you attribute the lyrics and melody of a song? Aren't these directly
related to the picturization? It is always within the confines of the
situation in a Film that the lyricists, composers and singers find their
creativity. This was all I was saying and not whether Lata was the best or if
she ought to have been given all those quality songs. My arguments were more
towards juding a composer fairly and against treating Naushad and SJ with a
two-box mentality:-)
I think we are all going around in circles around this topic and we seem to
have reached a point of diminishing returns.....
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
ani...@my-dejanews.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> There has been discussion in the past on RMIM about how Hemant Kumar is
> one of the most eveh-handed of music directors, when it comes to the range
> of his work with Lata, Asha, and Geeta.
Even-handed? I am absolutely sure, more than 50% of his female songs were
by Lata.
> I conssier the best song of 'Sapan Suhane' to be the one sung by Sabita
> Chowdhury:
>
> . chaand kabhi thaa baaho.n me.n
> phool bichhe the raaho.n me.n
>
> If you like, you can keep thundering "but she is his wife, and no
> maybe about it, blaah blaah ..".
>
I prefer 'o gori aaja gadivich baith jaa...', but then this is personal
choice, so there is no point arguing.
> worked with. I rate S.D. Burman and Chitragupta very highly in this
> regard. (And get that "an" into your head.)
>
SDB did this with male singers, but not with female. Once he started with
Lata, he did not give much to any other singers unless he was doing a Guru
Dutt film, in that case everything went to Geeta. When he stopped using Lata,
almost everything went to Asha. However, once he called Lata back he used her
almost exclusively. So where is the 'range'? Can you provide examples,
besides some occasional songs here and there? Also as far as Chitragupta is
concerned, of his songs that I have heard, Lata was the female singer he
worked with more than any other female singer. Since I can't cliam to have
heard most of Chitragupta's soundtracks, I can't be sure on this count about
his overall body of work.
Sami Mohammed
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> In article <7cttab$3hp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, sm...@geocities.com says...
> >
> >There is no need to suspend discussion. Only to suspend judgement until all
> >facts are available. The unavailability of facts at time t does not mean that
> >they don't exist.
>
> More logic-chopping. OK. One will never have "all" facts. Unavailability
> of a particular fact at time t does mean you cannot use the unavailable
> fact to suport one particular side of the argument! That has been the
> problem all along in this thread: the castle with air as foundation that
> Anil built about the 'Saranga' songs.
I have NOT argued the fact that, unlike other MDs, Sardar Mallik gave serious
songs to non-Lata singers in Saranga. If you define THAT as "breaking the
mold", then, yes, I agree with you. As Roopa has (also) mentioned in her
post, this is a conclusion that can be arrived at without referring to the
picturizations of the songs. BUT, what I'm also trying to factor in is WHY
did he, unlike other MDs, give those serious songs to a non-Lata singer? Is
it merely because they were picturized on the "other" actress ? In that case,
he would lose a point in my scorebook. Now, you seem to be content to stay in
your "music-only" world (in this particular thread) and don't want to even
tolerate anyone bringing in the picturization aspect. I wish you wouldn't
treat the discussions nucleated by you so holy and be so intolerant towards
any diversions.
>Expecting thoughtfulness is an idiosyncrasy?
No. Refusing to acknowledge it is.
> OK, class. We'll repeat the lesson as many time as needed. Two times one
> is two.
This is getting boring.
> and as such useless. As an instance, the sentence "Maybe in 'Saranga', the
> solos by Asha and Suman were not picturized on the leading lady" has zero
> information content.
Perhaps it's time for you to get your own 2=2=4 lesson. Not every sentence is
supposed to serve you with avagadro no. of information molecules. Raising a
possibility in most cases encourages normal people to think about cases which
they may not have considered earlier. Perhaps you ought to read every sentence
to look for possible values rather than view them as potential ridicule and
flame ignition sources.
> OK class, continue with revisions! Say after me, "Two times two is four."
Now this is getting boring AND repetitive.
> Learn to distinguish between statements expressing observed reality ("Lata
> had the upbeat songs, while Asha and Suman had soulful songs.") and
> statements purporting to be the explanations (here, "The songs were on
> the leading lady, while the Asha and Suman songs were on other
>actresses").
Learn not only to observe reality but also analyze why it is so. "A leaf is
green" is an observed reality. "Maybe it is green because it has chlorofyl
(sp?) in it" is a possible explanation. The possible explanation may have
some value and is worth exploring. Moreover, it does not, in any manner
endanger the observed reality. Don't be insecure about the reality merely
because you observed it and it is your baby.
>Now pardon me if I don't pay any attention to
>the latter when it is embedded in a "mebbe --, mebbe not --".
If you don't pay any attention to the latter, that's your prerogative. But why
do you want to stop others from doing so ? What's wrong with considering the
second point even if it is merely a possibility ?
> >You mean, "MAYBE" the knowledge of the film will add to the richness of the
> >discussion ? Funny, how you find one term irritating and another one, which
> >implies the same meaning, convenient to use.
>
>It is justified because:
Herr Dhareshwar has used it ?
>It is not the case that knowledge of the film
> ALWAYS enriches the discussion. And, it is not the case that the knowledge
> of the ilm NEVER enriches the discussion. Now, I would be surprised if you
> or even Anil will claim that "the Suman song 'likh ke piyaa ka naam' is
> picturized sometimes on the leading lady and in other istances on a side
> actrress'!
What stupid logic to support your childish arguments! Just as knowledge of the
film does not always enrich the discussion, so also, non-Lata singers do not
always sing for the secondary actress.
>"Two times three is six".
Please grow up.
> >No, you don't. I belong to the same group myself. But I don't see why one
> >should not tolerate any reference to movies when it is made in relation to
> >music.
>
> Intolerant of "any" reference? You seem to be picking up Anil's habit of
> using intensifiers that end up making the setnence wrong.
And you seem to be continuing your own habit of intentionally misinterpreting
others' statements for the sole purpose of proving them wrong.
> I have made
> many references to films and pictruization myself on RMIM articles.
Good. The closet RAMLIan is finally out in the open.
>Picturization knowledge treated as essential to RMIM?
I thought picturization knowledge would be essential to answer a question
about picturization, wouldn't it ? Now, what was that 2+2 = ?
> >Although you claim not to have many movies, but I'm sure you must've watched
> >enough to know that most background songs do have an actor/actress associated
> >with them although they don't sing.
>
> You mean you match the singer of the background song to the artist on the
> screen?
No. Read again with an unbiased mind. I said "most background songs do have an
actor/actress associated with them although they don't sing". Emphasis on
"associated with them".
> By your logic, we'll have to assign Rafi as a possible playback singer for
> Nirupa Roy!
Read above. And quit being so stupid.
And there are other instances of a male playback singer singing the
background song picturized on a female actress: "O jaanewaale ho sake to
lauTke aana…" and "Daaman me aag laga baiTHe…". You weren't funny as you felt
you were when you cited that Rafi song picturized on nRoy.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> Ashok
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Surajit A. Bose
> Specifically, the Lata/heroine vs. Others/non-heroine argument is only part
> of the story, even as we observe it in retrospect. My general observation is
> that EVEN in cases where the lead-actress lipsynched songs BOTH by Lata and,
> say, Asha/Suman, the Asha/Suman songs often tended to be less
> challenging/profound/memorable (whatever) than the Lata songs. Now, someone
> with access to research vehicles can do a head-count of examples; someone
> might even point out exceptions galore. No matter. The exceptions would
> confirm the existence of the trend. In other words, I agree with Ashok when
> he says that, REGARDLESS of whom the songs were picturized on, Lata got the
> better deal in terms of quality compositions.
>
> Both Sami and Anil have offered reasons for this: MD was in love with Late,
> producer insisted on Lata, heroine sang "important" songs, etc.. All reasons
> are well-taken. Extra-musical compulsions notwithstanding, I doubt if
> established MDs would have been, or were, annihilated if they were to have
> worked harder on producing more sterling quality songs for other singers.
Freud said of neurotic fixations that they are "overdetermined": the
content of a neurotic symptom is the result of a range of factors, none of
which can account fully for the symptom. Furthermore, each factor doesn't
have to be consistent or compatible with every other factor.
There are always factors at work that enable the organization of a
neurotic's world in terms of his/her fixation. The obviousness of Lata's
singing a song is never in question--nobody ever asks, "Hey! How come LATA
sang this song?" Our fetishization of Lata makes this a non-question. Of
course Lata sang this song.
And like all other neurotic fixations, our collective Lata fetish becomes
a rich source of meaning. There are always overdetermined explanations for
every non-Lata song:
€ This MD was in love with Sharada, so Sharada sang this song
€ Lata was sick and couldn't make it to the recording, so Meena sang this song
€ This song was picturized on the second lead, so Asha sang this song
€ This song was a duet with Rafi, so Suman sang this song
€ Lata wouldn't sing with Sachin, so Geeta sang this song
€ This song is from a low-budget movie, so Suman sang this song
€ The producer wouldn't accept Hridaynath as MD, so Vani sang this song
€ This song was from a Guru Dutt movie, so Geeta sang this song
€ This song was a same-sex duet, so Asha and Usha sang this song
€ The MD and Lata were in love but broke up, so Asha sang this song
€ This song is a cabaret or has vulgar words, so Asha sang this song
€ This song is a qawwaalii, so Sudha sang this song.
The trump card, of course, is: "we don't know why Lata did not sing this
song, but it must have been for some reasons like the ones given above."
Note that when pursued to particulars, the "reasons" evaporate. Why did
Suman sing "na tum hame.n jaano"? Because Lata wouldn't sing for Sachin.
Never mind that the same movie has "shiishe kaa ho, ya patthar kaa dil," a
Lata duet--with Rafi, no less. Why did Asha sing "ham intazaar kare.nge"?
Because Lata wouldn't sing with Rafi. So given a choice between Rafi and
Lata, the alleged Lataphile Roshan chose Rafi. Hardly flattering to Lata.
But more fuel to the fire of our collective Lata fixation. And when we
react violently against the fixation, the very vehemence of our reactions
testifies to the power of the fixation. No escape.
When there's so much affect and so little logic or evidence attached to
the subject, is discussion going to lead anywhere?
-s
--
To reply via e-mail, please remove "nospam" from the e-mail address.
Snehal B. Oza
>In my original response to Ashok's post, there were just two points I was
>trying to make and they seem to have got lost. First, Ashok was trying to
>cover up his personal opinions about Naushad in a "he couldn't see beyond
>Lata/Rafi" garb. Many composers are guilty of that, so singling out Naushad
>was not right. Second, separation of Hindi 'Film' Music from 'Film' is an
>ufair way to judge a composer and use epithets like 'stereotype and
>inflexible thought process' based on that. Almost all aspects of a song are
>dictated by the Film. Since you say "the test is not in picturization", how
>would you attribute the lyrics and melody of a song? Aren't these directly
>related to the picturization? It is always within the confines of the
>situation in a Film that the lyricists, composers and singers find their
Just for fun sake here is what I see: for long time especially in 1980s many
songs appeared to have been in the films just because it should have some. To
me they sounded like fillers. And now with Gulshan Kumar's spectacular success
stories, the scene is upside down -- songs are created first and then a film
story is created to picturise them! A group of songs probably sell better if
clubbed together with some film name! Both don't make any sense to me.
All IMO
Snehal
Snehal B. Oza
>worked with more than any other female singer. Since I can't cliam to have
>heard most of Chitragupta's soundtracks, I can't be sure on this count about
>his overall body of work.
I will leave someone else to take up case of Hemant Kumar. Let me try to write
about Chitragupta's singers -- female singers.
What I have read about him all this time is that he was doing low grade films
(B or C) all along in his initial carier, till Bhabhi (1957) break. I am sure
looking at start-cast and banners of his early films in Geet Kosh would reveal
the same. It's not wrong to assume Lata's check must be considerably more
than that of Asha (and Geeta & Shamshad). I wouldn't list songs from his
films but would try to list Lata v/s non-Lata dominated films based on what
I have heard (or known through articles, books)
Lata Non-Lata Equal
All his pre-1955 films
Maha Shivratri (1955) Shiv Bhakt
Navaratri (?)
Raaj Darbaar (a)
Sati Madaalsaa (a?)
Shri Ganesh Vivah (a/g)
Shri Krishan Bhakti
Basant Panchami (1956) Insaaf
Basre Ki Hoor (g) Jayshree
Kismat
Talwaar Ka Dhani (a)
Zindagi Ke Mele
Bhabhi (1957) Captain Kishore (g)
Sakshi Gopal Lakshmipooja (s)
Neelmani (g)
Pavan Putra Hanuman (?)
Teesari Gali (1958) Chaalbaaz (g)
Daughter of Sindbad (g)
Maya Bazar (a)
Taxi Stand (a)
Zimbo (a)
Barkha (1959) Commander (g)
Guest House Daaka (g)
Kaali Topi Laal Rumaal Kal Hamara Hai (sudha)
Kangan
Madam X Y Z
Patang (1960) Maan Baap (g) Baraat
Tel Maalish Boot Polish Hum Matwale Naujawan (1961) Zabak
Bezubaan (1962) Burma Road
Mein Chup Rahungi Mein Shadi Karane Chalao
Rocket Girl
Ganga Ki Lehren (1964) Samson
Aakash Deep (1965)
Well list can go on but I am out of gas! What I find is that Chitragupta's
Lata use is far less compared to Asha-Shamshad-Geeta (combined). I would
conclude that Lata < Asha if one goes by quantity of Chitragupta songs.
And this is based on what I know above. I have almost zero knowledge of his
films and songs after 1965.
Regards,
Snehal
Amit Chakradeo
> >
> > . ham apane Gham ko sajaa kar bahaar kar lenge
> > tere Khayaalo.n ko thoDaa saa pyaar kar lenge
> >
> > Long ago, someone on RMIM had told me that Anu Malik has a song in a
> > relatively recent film which starts identically. Does anyone know the P-stats
> > for that song?
>
> The song is in "The Gentleman" with music "by" (!) Anu Malik . I think the
> male singer is SPB. The female playback is probably a South Indian too-
> (Chitra ? Kavita ? ) The tune is fair, and, considering it is Anu Malik,
> it may be one of his better tunes. However it pales into oblivion when
> placed next to the "Madan Manjari" gem.
>
The only "original" song in that movie by Anu Malik
Sung by Vinod Rathod and Sadhana Sargam
AMit
Anant Rege
ani...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7d5on3$nv1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
<snip>
>SDB did this with male singers, but not with female. Once he started with
>Lata, he did not give much to any other singers unless he was doing a Guru
>Dutt film, in that case everything went to Geeta. When he stopped using
Lata,
>almost everything went to Asha. However, once he called Lata back he used
her
>almost exclusively. So where is the 'range'? Can you provide examples,
>besides some occasional songs here and there? Also as far as Chitragupta is
>
Bandini was already mentioned so I will ignore that. But your question made
me think about another SDB movie where not one or two stray songs were given
to non - Lata singers but majority ones. Will Jeevan Jyoti will do? Where
Lata got 'Chhayee kari badariya' and the lori 'Soja re soja'. Not having
seen the movie nor knowing anything about it, I don't know whether situation
demanded it or not but Asha got to sing exactly same songs and some more
like 'Balama na mane' and 'Tasweer banati hain'. Geeta chipped in with a
nice solo like 'Ayee bahar muskurayee', then teamed up with Manna Dey to
sing 'Woh dekho udhar chand' and with Rafi to sing 'Lag gayee ankhiyan'.
Finally not to forget another SDB ex favourite Shamshad who got 'Sari
khushiyan saath'.
Regards
Anant
Anant Rege
rdh...@del3.vsnl.net.in wrote in message
<7d375h$l95$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7cttab$3hp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
>> In article <7cmoij$1g...@news1.newsguy.com>,
>> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
>A few of my thoughts on this debate:
>
>
>suspend judgement, no matter how many hidden facts pop up in the years to
>come; that conclusion is, as Ashok has already pointed out, that Lata sang
>the bulk of the better-crafted tunes, while MDs tended to expend less
effort
>on tunes they knew were meant for singers other than Lata. The reasons why
>this happened help explain why it happened, but certainly don't change the
>fact that it happened, neither do they change the result, which is that a
>disservice was done both to other singers as well as to Hindi film music.
>
>Specifically, the Lata/heroine vs. Others/non-heroine argument is only part
>of the story, even as we observe it in retrospect. My general observation
is
>that EVEN in cases where the lead-actress lipsynched songs BOTH by Lata
and,
>say, Asha/Suman, the Asha/Suman songs often tended to be less
>challenging/profound/memorable (whatever) than the Lata songs. Now, someone
>with access to research vehicles can do a head-count of examples; someone
>might even point out exceptions galore. No matter. The exceptions would
>confirm the existence of the trend. In other words, I agree with Ashok when
>he says that, REGARDLESS of whom the songs were picturized on, Lata got the
>better deal in terms of quality compositions.
>
Hello
Here are my few thoughts because of this thread. Please note that I said
'because of this thread'. Means I am not directly entering in the discussion
which I think is going nowhere. Everybody seems to agree that the sound
tracks where Lata figured, she always got the better deal in terms of
quality of songs and most MDs, for whatever reason, seem to have put less
efforts in the songs sung by non Lata singers in the same sound track. And I
don't think that exceptions are galore. Which made me think about the films
where the song sung by non Lata singer was better than otherwise Lata
dominated soundtrack. 2 MDs who were closest to Lata were CR and Madan
Mohan. Thinking about CR films, the first came to my mind (which was also
mentioned in this thread) was 'Shatranj' where Asha's 'Kahi pe sham hote hi'
stole the show. The other film I thought about was 'Ladki'. This has couple
of ordinary Lata numbers like 'Todke duniya ki diwar' and 'Sajana aaja,
daras dikha ja'. And then there is this absolute wonderful song 'Man mor
machaye shor, ghata ghanghor chhayee dheere dheere bol' sung by Geeta which
feels like a misfit in this ordinary soundtrack. Then thinking about Madan
Mohan films, first I thought about 'Woh kaun thi'. Asha's 'Shokh najar ki
bijaliya' is pretty good but I can't rate it better than other Lata songs. I
remember Asha, in one of her interviews, mentioned with obvious glee in her
voice how her 'Zumka gira re' in 'Mera saya' was the most popular song of
the film. I totally agree with the popularity part, but I don't think it
beats 'Naino me badara chhaye'. Then I thought about 'Bhai bhai'. I think
Lata's 'Kadar jaane na' and 'Mera chhotasa dekho ye sansar hai' are very
good but I am not going to argue with anybody who rates Geeta's 'Ai dil
mujhe batade' higher than these.
These were the films where a 'stray' song given to non Lata singer were
highlights of the film. Are there many soundtracks which has lots of songs
equally shared by Lata and non Lata singers and maintain the consistency in
quality? The first film came to my mind was Husnalal Bhagatram's 'Badi
bahen'. Lata's 'Chup chup khade ho jaroor koi baat hai', 'Chale jana nahi'
and 'Jo dil me khushi bankar aaye' all are pretty good and very popular
songs. But they are no way any better or more popular than Suraiya's 'Woh
paas rahe ya door rahe', 'Bigadi bananewale', 'Tum muzko bhul jao' and 'Ho
likhanewale ne, likha di meri taqdeer main barbadi'.
<Putting on RAMLI cap>
Where as Suraiyas songs went to the main heroine (surprisingly Suraiya
herself), Lata's went to supporting actress Geeta Bali. (Geeta bali was
supporting actress only because of the name of the film which refers to
Suraiya as badi bahen otherwise IMO if she appears only for 5 minutes in a
film, she is the main heroine.)
<Taking off RAMLI cap>
And then I thought about this Anil Biswas masterpiece. Who can do it better
than Anil Biswas? I mean giving the same loving care to every song. No I am
not thinking about Anokha pyar. Though this excellent soundtrack was shared
by Lata and Meena Kapoor in the film, HMV went on and re recorded the songs
in Lata's voice. The film I thought was 'Heer'. What a class act. Do you
think nobody can do better than Lata who sang beautiful solos 'O mere
ranzana, rukhsat ka hain sama', 'Tumhe jab sath na layee, bahar ayee to kya
ayee', 'Kab tak rahega parda, parde me chupne wale' and teamed up with Rafi
to sing 'Khamosh jamana hain' ? Wait till you listen Geeta singing 'Bulbul
mere chaman ke, taqdeer meri banake', 'Dhadakne laga dil, nazar jhuk gayee',
'Teri karam ko kahegi duniya' and 'Chhedi maut ne shehnayee, aaja aanewale'
alone. Add to it her duet with Hemant Kumar 'O sajana, jara dekh tadapana
mera' and I don't have any doubts who the winner is in this hard fought
match.
Which are the other such films you can think off?
Regards
Anant
[PS: After all above songs in Heer, I remember 3 more lovely solos, one in
Hemant's voice 'Ek chand ka tukda' and two in Rafi's voice 'Le uski duwaye
jo tera ho na saka' and 'Allah teri khair kare' and then think about some
obstinate people who consider 'Aaram' is the best Anilda film. Some guys
will never learn. :-)]
Hrishi Dixit
> <Putting on RAMLI cap>
Wrong size. Doesn't become you. :-)
> <Taking off RAMLI cap>
That's more like it.
> [PS: After all above songs in Heer, I remember 3 more lovely solos, one in
> Hemant's voice 'Ek chand ka tukda' and two in Rafi's voice 'Le uski duwaye
> jo tera ho na saka' and 'Allah teri khair kare' and then think about some
> obstinate people who consider 'Aaram' is the best Anilda film. Some guys
> will never learn. :-)]
:-) To employ the syntax popularized on the RMIM battlefield of late, the
opinion was formed on the basis of data available at time t. Of course I
could have always said 'Heer' MAY be better or MAY NOT be better, trying to
extrapolate from the one song I have heard ('o mere raanjhana..') but somehow
that seems too amorphous to fit into my idiosyncratic notions of adding
information content, air-reinforced castles, etc.
:-) All in jest, gentlepeople. I don't know about addition of information
content, or law of diminishing returns and suchlike, but all these
confrontational polemics have certainly added a non-negative entertainment
content to the forum and provided a refreshing break from jejune DVD
dissections. Keep the flame burning, I say :-)
..Hrishi
--------------------------
Hrishi Dixit
hri...@excite.com
vandana...@hotmail.com
Or as Ramesh bhaiya would say "Bachcha log, ladneka nahi"!
In article <7d5q75$p8t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Sami Mohammed
<sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
> In article <7cv1v1$5...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> > In article <7cttab$3hp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, sm...@geocities.com says...
... and so on ....
> > >
.... snip snip snip ....
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> <snip>
>
> These were the films where a 'stray' song given to non Lata singer were
> highlights of the film. Are there many soundtracks which has lots of songs
> equally shared by Lata and non Lata singers and maintain the consistency in
> quality? The first film came to my mind was Husnalal Bhagatram's 'Badi
> bahen'. Lata's 'Chup chup khade ho jaroor koi baat hai', 'Chale jana nahi'
> and 'Jo dil me khushi bankar aaye' all are pretty good and very popular
> songs. But they are no way any better or more popular than Suraiya's 'Woh
> paas rahe ya door rahe', 'Bigadi bananewale', 'Tum muzko bhul jao' and 'Ho
> likhanewale ne, likha di meri taqdeer main barbadi'.
In this context, BADI BAHEN may not be entirely appropriate for
discussion because
- HB were not known Lata-philes
- Lata was not yet 'Lata'!
- Suraiyya was not the 'other singer'
As a matter of fact, here Lata and the other singer (?) switch
roles. It was a Suraiya film. She was a highly popular singing
star. Lata was a struggling singer. Lata sang for Geeta Bali(2)
and some street singer (1). Surprisingly, the last one was the
most enduring of the Lata songs in terms of popularity. Even
today, a casual listener is more likely to remember 'chup chup'
than any other song from the movie. So in some sense, HB broke
the mould and gave good numbers to Lata! How much of it was
intentional, we will never know. Did HB 'know' that 'chup chup'
had great potential mass appeal? Did Lata take an ordinary
tune and turn it into an enduring song? Did SJ (assitants to
HB at the time) actually compose 'chup chup' for Lata, whose
voice they were secretly in love with? Like I said, we are
unlikely to ever find out.
> The film I thought was 'Heer'. What a class act. Do you
> think nobody can do better than Lata who sang beautiful solos 'O mere
> ranzana, rukhsat ka hain sama', 'Tumhe jab sath na layee, bahar ayee to kya
> ayee', 'Kab tak rahega parda, parde me chupne wale' and teamed up with Rafi
> to sing 'Khamosh jamana hain' ?
'tumhe jab saath na laa_ii' and 'khaamosh zamaanaa hai' are
by Asha.
> Wait till you listen Geeta singing 'Bulbul
> mere chaman ke, taqdeer meri banake', 'Dhadakne laga dil, nazar jhuk gayee',
> 'Teri karam ko kahegi duniya' and 'Chhedi maut ne shehnayee, aaja aanewale'
> alone. Add to it her duet with Hemant Kumar 'O sajana, jara dekh tadapana
> mera' and I don't have any doubts who the winner is in this hard fought
> match.
'chheDii maut ne shahnaa_ii' is by Asha. And there are
two more Asha solos in the movie (I don't remember the
words).
Things are too muddled up now. We need to separate out the
Lata, Asha and Geeta songs and then analyze them. That ought
to be a separate post in a different thread maybe? But quickly,
in my mind 'o mere raanjhanaa' is way above the rest of the
songs in the movie. I love the other songs as well but if
I were to pick a winner it would be this Lata solo.
C
neha...@hotmail.com
"Anant Rege" <ar...@removethiscyberus.ca> wrote:
> to non - Lata singers but majority ones. Will Jeevan Jyoti will do? Where
> Lata got 'Chhayee kari badariya' and the lori 'Soja re soja'. Not having
> seen the movie nor knowing anything about it, I don't know whether situation
> demanded it or not but Asha got to sing exactly same songs and some more
> like 'Balama na mane' and 'Tasweer banati hain'. Geeta chipped in with a
> nice solo like 'Ayee bahar muskurayee', then teamed up with Manna Dey to
> sing 'Woh dekho udhar chand' and with Rafi to sing 'Lag gayee ankhiyan'.
> Finally not to forget another SDB ex favourite Shamshad who got 'Sari
> khushiyan saath'.
Anant,
If you have heard the tape, you know which is the nicest song and who it
went to:)
You could have checked Dejanews archives for Ashok's post on Jeevan Jyoti. He
mentions that one(or was it two?) of the songs isn't even from Jeevan Jyoti.
There is also another post by Surajit which will point you to the best song
of the movie(and who sang it) I am only posting the relevant parts from
Ashok's post:
-------
These are not tandem songs. The movie has only the songs by Lata. The two
tracks by Asha are the so-called "version" records.
>1. Chhaayi kaari badariya bairaniya ho raam...
>
>Sung by both Lata and Asha,
No. It is a Lata solo.
>2. Soja re soja...
>
>A very sweet hummable lullaby and both Lata and Asha sound very soft and sweet.
>Like I maintain, I think SDB did give Asha her best and this is yet another gem
>that's hidden. I am glad I bought this tape, though it looked a little shady.
>You dont want to miss this tandem of the two sisters any more than you want to
>miss the previous one.
This is also a Lata solo. Asha has sung this song and the earlier one, but it
is not clear under what conditions: whether Asha had sung them for the
preliminary version used in the shooting or if she sang it later as a version.
>4. Aayi bahaar muskuraayi bahaar...
>
>Geeta's voice is a little strained cause the antaras remain on a high note. But
>even so the song is great..quite a 'waltzy' tune...
Something must have gone wrong in desinging the tape contents. Songs 3 and 4
are not from 'Jeevan Jyoti', which is a 1953 film. Especially the superior
melody of the Manna Dey-Geeta duet is beyond SD Burman. These two songs are
from a vague mid-1950s film, 'Roopkumari', with music by SN Tripathi.
>5. Balma ne man har leena...
>
>6. Saari khushian saath aayi aap jab aayein...
>
>Though a good song, this Shamshaad number sticks out like a sore thumb. A
misfit
>among all sweet, melodious songs...This must probably the most fast paced song
>of this soundtrack.
So, according to Neha, SN Tripathi compositions enhance a melodious SDB
soundtrack more fittingly than SDB's own creations!
----------------Ashok's other post regarding the
picturisations----------------
'Jeevan Jyoti' has many fascinating features. The lyrics credit to
GD Madgulkar and Sahir is one. There is also a song by Pandit Narendra
Sharma. It is a lovely wedding song, sung by Geeta and chorus (not in
the tape):
man sheetal, nainaa suphal (?) ....
dekho dekho nazar lag jaae naa
bairan ki nazar lag jaae naa
Shammi Kapoor piping up with a line toward the end of the song
tasveere banti hai.n
as mentioned by Satish K., is another. It is interesting that the
tune is similar to "dil pukaare". Here the context is one of expecting
the first child! (The heroine is Chand Usmani; her first film.)
Most fascinating feature is the way singers get "morphed" in two songs.
In the film, the song "chhaai kaari badariyaa" starts off in the voice
of an unknown female singer, along with chorus, and has a folksy touch
in that segment. Then Lata takes over and the song gets a more classical
feel.
The most interesting one is what is the key song of the film, the lori,
"so jaa re". It occurs in the film numerous times in bits and pieces.
(The story is a bit like 'Parchhaai' of Shantaram.) The tape has the
78-rpm version of the song, sung as a solo by Lata. There is no
equivalent song in the film! The lori first comes in a one-minute
version, sung with very little accompaniment by Geeta. At the wedding
of the hero and the heroine, hero's younger sister dies due to a fire
accident. Apparently, she is a poet and gifts a lori she had penned to
the heroine; she dies singing this song! When the song is featured
again in an extended version, it begins in Lata's voice, picturized on
the heroine. Then, in the middle, she remembers the dead sister-in-law.
The visual shifts to show the sister-in-law singing, and the voice in
the song shifts, with Geeta taking over. Couple of the transitions
happen in mid-stanza! Unfortunately, the audio quality was quite bad.
But one can discern that Geeta sings with great emotional depth,
unmatched by either Lata in the 78-rpm version or Asha in her "version
version"! In any case, a unique opportunity to observe three great
singers at work on the same song.
What got released were decent solo songs. What was missed was a
most interesting two-female duet.
----
--
Neha
neha...@hotmail.com
"Anant Rege" <ar...@removethiscyberus.ca> wrote:
Seems like it is my day to respond to your posts:)
> <Putting on RAMLI cap>
> Where as Suraiyas songs went to the main heroine (surprisingly Suraiya
> herself),
I am surprised that you are surprised that Suraiya sang her own songs. She
always did, as far as I know, she hasnt playbacked for anyone else except
herself.
> obstinate people who consider 'Aaram' is the best Anilda film. Some guys
> will never learn. :-)]
And I am sure they say the same thing about you:). Let them have their own
opinions, afterall everyone has a different taste no?
--
Neha Desai
ani...@my-dejanews.com
> which I think is going nowhere.
but atleast it "woke" up a sleepy (and, at times, boring) RMIM:-)
> Then thinking about Madan
> Mohan films, first I thought about 'Woh kaun thi'. Asha's 'Shokh najar ki
> bijaliya' is pretty good but I can't rate it better than other Lata songs. I
> remember Asha, in one of her interviews, mentioned with obvious glee in her
> voice how her 'Zumka gira re' in 'Mera saya' was the most popular song of
> the film. I totally agree with the popularity part, but I don't think it
> beats 'Naino me badara chhaye'. Then I thought about 'Bhai bhai'. I think
> Lata's 'Kadar jaane na' and 'Mera chhotasa dekho ye sansar hai' are very
> good but I am not going to argue with anybody who rates Geeta's 'Ai dil
> mujhe batade' higher than these.
>
actually MM had atleast one good Asha song and one very good Geeta song in
'night club'. I don't remember if there was any Lata song in that film. Also,
won't 'bank manager' qualify? Can't imagine any song even coming close to the
Asha masterpiece, let alone beating it.
> <Putting on RAMLI cap>
>
i don't think this is essetial at all.
>
> And then I thought about this Anil Biswas masterpiece. Who can do it better
> than Anil Biswas? I mean giving the same loving care to every song.
good example. as an aside: how is this movie? i have it sitting in the cabinet
for over a year now and i just dread watching it:-)
>
> Which are the other such films you can think off?
>
like i have said before, you can pick one movie of almost any composer
where the non-Lata songs dominate. naushad too has a wonderful, sad,
reflective Asha song in 'amar'.
but, should picking an almost equally talented artistes like Asha and Geeta
over Lata really constitute 'breaking the mold'? it may very well, but in
my book, it is composers like Vanraj Bhatia and Jaidev who really did this.
Just look at the range of singers, most of them real talented (unlike ARR).
I wish Jaidev had also gotten MSSubalaskmi in his repertoire. As much as i
love 'allah tero naam', i would have loved to hear it in her voice.
>
> [PS: After all above songs in Heer, I remember 3 more lovely solos, one in
> Hemant's voice 'Ek chand ka tukda' and two in Rafi's voice 'Le uski duwaye
> jo tera ho na saka' and 'Allah teri khair kare' and then think about some
> obstinate people who consider 'Aaram' is the best Anilda film. Some guys
> will never learn. :-)]
>
ouch! imo 'tarana' is the desert-island soundtrack:-) but then, anything this
great man touched turned to gold.
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
Anant Rege
Chetan Vinchhi wrote in message <36F7D5E1...@lucent.com>...
>Anant Rege wrote:
>>
>In this context, BADI BAHEN may not be entirely appropriate for
>discussion because
>
>- HB were not known Lata-philes
>- Lata was not yet 'Lata'!
>- Suraiyya was not the 'other singer'
>
>As a matter of fact, here Lata and the other singer (?) switch
>roles. It was a Suraiya film. She was a highly popular singing
>star. Lata was a struggling singer. Lata sang for Geeta Bali(2)
>and some street singer (1). Surprisingly, the last one was the
>most enduring of the Lata songs in terms of popularity. Even
>today, a casual listener is more likely to remember 'chup chup'
>than any other song from the movie. So in some sense, HB broke
>the mould and gave good numbers to Lata! How much of it was
>intentional, we will never know. Did HB 'know' that 'chup chup'
>had great potential mass appeal? Did Lata take an ordinary
>tune and turn it into an enduring song? Did SJ (assitants to
>HB at the time) actually compose 'chup chup' for Lata, whose
>voice they were secretly in love with? Like I said, we are
>unlikely to ever find out.
>
I am glad that you brought these points up Chetan because I totally agree
with them. In fact it was precisely the reason I brought Badi Bahen in this
discussion. Now tell me, can you just listen to the songs from Badi bahen
and give an opinion whether HB 'broke the mould' by giving good songs to
non - Lata singer? Just going by the list of songs you may say yes. But
knowing all the facts you mentioned above gives totally different
perspective to it. isn't it? Interestingly Badi bahen does not fit in the
other school of thought too.
Main heroine = Lata (wrong)
Sad songs = Lata (wrong)
I don't agree with your opinion that HB were not Lataiites. I have always
felt that they were very much instrumental in the rise of Lata along with
CR.
>
>> The film I thought was 'Heer'. What a class act. Do you
>> think nobody can do better than Lata who sang beautiful solos 'O mere
>> ranzana, rukhsat ka hain sama', 'Tumhe jab sath na layee, bahar ayee to
kya
>> ayee', 'Kab tak rahega parda, parde me chupne wale' and teamed up with
Rafi
>> to sing 'Khamosh jamana hain' ?
>
>'tumhe jab saath na laa_ii' and 'khaamosh zamaanaa hai' are
>by Asha.
>
>> Wait till you listen Geeta singing 'Bulbul
>> mere chaman ke, taqdeer meri banake', 'Dhadakne laga dil, nazar jhuk
gayee',
>> 'Teri karam ko kahegi duniya' and 'Chhedi maut ne shehnayee, aaja
aanewale'
>> alone. Add to it her duet with Hemant Kumar 'O sajana, jara dekh tadapana
>> mera' and I don't have any doubts who the winner is in this hard fought
>> match.
>
>'chheDii maut ne shahnaa_ii' is by Asha. And there are
>two more Asha solos in the movie (I don't remember the
>words).
>
>Things are too muddled up now. We need to separate out the
>Lata, Asha and Geeta songs and then analyze them. That ought
>to be a separate post in a different thread maybe? But quickly,
>in my mind 'o mere raanjhanaa' is way above the rest of the
>songs in the movie. I love the other songs as well but if
>I were to pick a winner it would be this Lata solo.
>
Sorry if I screwed up in the singers names. I just went by the list on my
cassette which is obviously wrong. But as long as you don't attribute all
Lata songs to non - Lata or all non Lata songs to Lata, I guess I am OK at
least for this thread. :-)
Regards
Anant
>C
Anant Rege
neha...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7d8oih$apu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>> Where as Suraiyas songs went to the main heroine (surprisingly Suraiya
>> herself),
>
>always did, as far as I know, she hasnt playbacked for anyone else except
>herself.
>
Sorry Neha for not putting smiley after ( ... herself). Just a question. Do
we have to put it everytime or is it OK if we don't put it when it is
obvious? Also I may be wrong but I think Suraiya had given playback to
Mehtab in one of the Sohrab modi films. 'Shama' may be?
>> obstinate people who consider 'Aaram' is the best Anilda film. Some guys
>> will never learn. :-)]
>
>And I am sure they say the same thing about you:). Let them have their own
>opinions, afterall everyone has a different taste no?
>
Sure sure. That's why we are in this newsgroup. But I just can't picking up
on Hrishi whenever Anilda film comes up. One of these days he is going to
admin that 'Aaram' is not the finest Anilda had to offer. You will see.
Regards
Anant
>--
>Neha Desai
Anant Rege
ani...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7d8pip$bpq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
better
>> than Anil Biswas? I mean giving the same loving care to every song.
cabinet
>for over a year now and i just dread watching it:-)
>>
Sorry I can't help on that because I haven't seen the film. With mighty
Pradeep kumar in it, I would dread watching it too. Who would be the winner
of destroying maximum lovely songs? Pradeep kumar, Bharat bhushan or
somebody else? My vote goes to Pradeep kumar because Bharat bhushan was
actually bearable as Mirza Ghalib.
>ouch! imo 'tarana' is the desert-island soundtrack:-) but then, anything
this
>great man touched turned to gold.
>
Does availability of a song / soundtrack diminishes its charm somewhat? At
least it happens in my case. But if I have to introduce Anil Biswas to a
person with good taste and starting his journey in the world of old hindi
film music, I will play Tarana for him.
Regards
Anant
>Cheers,
>
>Anil P. Hingorani
>
Anant Rege
Anant Rege wrote in message <9222257...@news.remarQ.com>...
>
>neha...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7d8oih$apu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>In article <92215753...@news.remarQ.com>,
>> "Anant Rege" <ar...@removethiscyberus.ca> wrote:
>>
>>Seems like it is my day to respond to your posts:)
>>
>>> <Putting on RAMLI cap>
>>> Where as Suraiyas songs went to the main heroine (surprisingly Suraiya
>>> herself),
>>
>>I am surprised that you are surprised that Suraiya sang her own songs. She
>>always did, as far as I know, she hasnt playbacked for anyone else except
>>herself.
>>
>
>Sorry Neha for not putting smiley after ( ... herself). Just a question. Do
>we have to put it everytime or is it OK if we don't put it when it is
>obvious? Also I may be wrong but I think Suraiya had given playback to
>Mehtab in one of the Sohrab modi films. 'Shama' may be?
>
>
>>> obstinate people who consider 'Aaram' is the best Anilda film. Some guys
>>> will never learn. :-)]
>>
>>And I am sure they say the same thing about you:). Let them have their own
>>opinions, afterall everyone has a different taste no?
>>
>
>Sure sure. That's why we are in this newsgroup. But I just can't help
picking up
>on Hrishi whenever Anilda film comes up. One of these days he is going to
>admit that 'Aaram' is not the finest Anilda had to offer. You will see.
>
>Regards
>
>Anant
>
>
>>--
>>Neha Desai
>>
ani...@my-dejanews.com
"Anant Rege" <ar...@removethiscyberus.ca> wrote:
>
> Sorry I can't help on that because I haven't seen the film. With mighty
> Pradeep kumar in it, I would dread watching it too. Who would be the winner
> of destroying maximum lovely songs? Pradeep kumar, Bharat bhushan or
> somebody else? My vote goes to Pradeep kumar because Bharat bhushan was
> actually bearable as Mirza Ghalib.
>
together for destroying a whole bunch of great songs!
> Does availability of a song / soundtrack diminishes its charm somewhat?
This is great point and something that I have been thinking of posting for a
while. Why is it that if a soundtrack is easily available, it looses it's
charm (for some people)? What is it about having songs that very few people
have (or heard) that makes someone feel 'smug' and 'mighty' about it? I have
noticed this in many people on RMIM. There is also a tendency of hyping such
songs and putting down the more 'mainstream', popular and easily available
songs. Does possessing and having heard 'obscure' songs, more often than not,
give some kind of a high to a person? Finally, why are many people reluctant
to share these 'obscure' songs? Do they believe they would lose their edge
and somehow people who thought they were 'knowledgable' would not think so
anymore?
Sorry, for opening another Pandora's box:-) But, there are so many interesting
threads going on, I thought I would throw out one more. Anyone care to attempt
a conjecture(because that is all it could be) on any of the above questions?
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
Snehal B. Oza
>In article <92226521...@news.remarQ.com>,
> "Anant Rege" <ar...@removethiscyberus.ca> wrote:
>> Does availability of a song / soundtrack diminishes its charm somewhat?
>This is great point and something that I have been thinking of posting for a
>while. Why is it that if a soundtrack is easily available, it looses it's
>charm (for some people)? What is it about having songs that very few people
>have (or heard) that makes someone feel 'smug' and 'mighty' about it? I have
>noticed this in many people on RMIM. There is also a tendency of hyping such
>songs and putting down the more 'mainstream', popular and easily available
>songs. Does possessing and having heard 'obscure' songs, more often than not,
>give some kind of a high to a person? Finally, why are many people reluctant
>to share these 'obscure' songs? Do they believe they would lose their edge
>and somehow people who thought they were 'knowledgable' would not think so
>anymore?
Don't know who is in your mind. Let me share my feelings. For example until
Humlog was not released by HMV, I was proud to have 'Bahe Akhiyon Se Dhar'
by Lata. After buying the Humlog tape, I felt better in having my 78 version
recording for it has better effect. I don't know about losing charm. Most (if
not all) HMV recordings lack something (at least to my ear) that lessens my
enjoying the same song from old 78 or LP/EP/S7.
Snehal
Ikram A. Khan
> What is it about having songs that very few people
> have (or heard) that makes someone feel 'smug' and 'mighty' about it?
> I have noticed this in many people on RMIM.
Oh, don't keep ze names under your hat, Anil. Do tell. :)
For the record, I don't particularly understand the reticence on your
part. If you did feel like writing the above sentence, surely you
have a looong list of people that you think "maybe" fit your
description. :) Why this sudden burst of coyness? It is most
unbecoming, if you ask me. :)
{For those who "might" be interested, I kinda like the word 'maybe'.
And positively adore 'mebbe'! Delightful word. And I don't care if
you think me 'idiosyncratic'! :) :)}
> There is also a tendency of hyping such
> songs and putting down the more 'mainstream', popular and easily available
> songs. Does possessing and having heard 'obscure' songs, more often than not,
> give some kind of a high to a person? Finally, why are many people reluctant
> to share these 'obscure' songs? Do they believe they would lose their edge
> and somehow people who thought they were 'knowledgable' would not think so
> anymore?
I did not understand the point about 'hyping' and 'not sharing'. To
me, they seem contradictory. If they are 'hyped', then, of course,
the person is 'sharing' his knowledge with the "general ignorant
populace" {:)}. I would urge less contradictory statements.
Your critics would point out that you are fast reaching the danger
of 'stack overflow' as far as such statements go in this thread. :)
Of course, by "sharing", you might mean something like why don't "THEY"
make a cassette/CD and send it out to you, me and other people. Did you
mean this?
>
> Sorry, for opening another Pandora's box:-)
"Sorry"?! Really??!! You don't say!!! :) :)
> But, there are so many interesting
> threads going on, I thought I would throw out one more.
Oooooh, I can just imagine the comebacks you are going to get on
that one - 'throw out one more'... this is just too good!! :) And
all those who did think of the comebacks, *please do* post them!!
May I ask, however, why you didn't attempt to actually create a
thread with the above topic (as opposed to just inserting it in
a post on an absolutely delightful 'n delicious thread)? It
stands the danger of languishing on a thread with such precious
gems as we have seen already.
Later,
Ikram.
ani...@my-dejanews.com
iak...@bigfoot.com wrote:
> May I ask, however, why you didn't attempt to actually create a
> thread with the above topic (as opposed to just inserting it in
> a post on an absolutely delightful 'n delicious thread)? It
> stands the danger of languishing on a thread with such precious
> gems as we have seen already.
>
I guess I was waiting for a post with "such precious gems" to include this
topic in, since this topic too belongs in the same trash can.
I was just having fun:-) Need it badly in this highly stressful wall street
environment:-)
Cheers,
Anil P. Hingorani
neha...@hotmail.com
> noticed this in many people on RMIM. There is also a tendency of hyping such
> songs and putting down the more 'mainstream', popular and easily available
> songs.
It could be a case that the popular and easily available song has been heard
so often by them that they are saturated with it and finding another rare gem
in the soundtrack which they didnt expect to, probably makes the rare song
more dear. Or maybe their tastes are different or evolving.
> Does possessing and having heard 'obscure' songs, more often than not,
> give some kind of a high to a person? Finally, why are many people reluctant
> to share these 'obscure' songs? Do they believe they would lose their edge
> and somehow people who thought they were 'knowledgable' would not think so
> anymore?
Anil,
Care to tell us who if anyone has refused to share their musical treasure with
you?
I dont know about you, but my experience with rmimers has been most fortunate.
I have never encountered on rmim anyone who has shown reluctance in sharing
songs or sending me tapes. Even without asking, I have received tapes of
songs that I have mentioned I have wanted. So I dont know who these people
are you are talking about.
In fact Ashok, Vish, Hrishi, Surajit, Preeti Ranjan, Satish Kalra, Veena,
Ajay, Satish Subramanian, Anand Tiwari, Vandana Venkatesan, Sandeep Joshi,
Sami, Kalyan, and many others(I am sorry if you have sent/given me a tape and
I am not acknowledging you...i feel like I am giving an acceptance speech at
Academy Awards:))) have often times given me a tape even without my asking
for it. They have even mailed me tapes and all at their expense. And these
are people who do it even without having met me only out of their generosity
and enthusiasm to share the treasures they have come across...in their quest
of good/rare music. I feel, I must stand up for them and their kindness.
Anyways...
-- Neha Desai
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- ehsaan mere dil pe tumhara hai doston...ye dil tumhaare pyar ka maara hai
doston
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Ashok
>Means I am not directly entering in the discussion
>which I think is going nowhere.
Discussion does not a destination. It is enough if the route is
scenic!
>Everybody seems to agree that the sound
>tracks where Lata figured, she always got the better deal in terms of
>quality of songs and most MDs, for whatever reason, seem to have put less
>efforts in the songs sung by non Lata singers in the same sound track.
Certainly not everybody!
>And I
>don't think that exceptions are galore. Which made me think about the films
>where the song sung by non Lata singer was better than otherwise Lata
>dominated soundtrack. 2 MDs who were closest to Lata were CR and Madan
>Mohan. Thinking about CR films, the first came to my mind (which was also
>mentioned in this thread) was 'Shatranj' where Asha's 'Kahi pe sham hote hi'
>stole the show. The other film I thought about was 'Ladki'. This has couple
>of ordinary Lata numbers like 'Todke duniya ki diwar' and 'Sajana aaja,
>daras dikha ja'. And then there is this absolute wonderful song 'Man mor
>machaye shor, ghata ghanghor chhayee dheere dheere bol' sung by Geeta which
>feels like a misfit in this ordinary soundtrack.
Many points of disagreements, including corrections.
First of all, I don't agree to characterizing 'Ladki' as an ordinary
soundtrack. It is an exceptionally good soundtrack.
C. Ramchandra doesn't have much to do with why I think it is a gret
soundtrack. The film is an import from the South. I believe the music
director for the original Tamil film was R. Sudarshanam. For the Hindi
version, most songs are composed by him along with Dhaniram. There are
a few songs credited to CR, but they are very ordinary or worse. The
memorable songs are by the other pair.
The song "man mor, machaave shor, ghaTaa ghan ghor" is one of those
(memorable songs). Note that it is not a Geeta solo. It is a same-sex
duet with Geeta and Lata. I think Lata is the minor singer in the song.
(I mean musically; I have no idea who playback-sings for who.) But
that figures; if Geeta and Lata are the singers in a duet, Geeta would
emerge as the main singer.
What makes 'Ladki' a great soundtrack essentially has to do with the
fantastic Geeta solo: "baaT chalat nayi chundari rang .Daari".
The film has a breezy Kishore number, "shaadi". Quite CR-ish, but turns
out to be by Sudarshanam and Dhaniram.
In the 1950s, two Bombay personalities had a near-total lock on South
productions: lyricist Rajinder Krishan and music director C. Ramchandra.
Interestingly, an exception in the case of CR seems to have been AVM.
'Ladki' is the only AVM film he was even partially associated with. I
wonder if it has to do with the fall-out that happened between director
MV Raman and AVM. I don't know the nature of the disagreement, but it
happened while the AVM-produced Raman-directed film 'Bhai Bhai' had
proved to be a great success. AVM took the unheard-of step of pulling
its own film from the Bombay movie house after it had completed 22 weeks
and was still going strong.
There is almost a superstitious sense of importance attached to "silver
jubilee" in the minds of Bombay film artists and producers. Artists
(actors, music directors, and so on) associated with a silver jubilee
hit begin to be considered lucky. This explains why some music directors
were in heavy demand: Naushad from 40s to 60s, CR from 40s to 50s, S-J
in 50s and 60s. It also explains why artists of the same or higher
league, such as Anil Biswas and SDB had less of a market. On the flip
side, the once-successful MDs began to see the market dry up as the
films they were associated with failed to have a silver jubilee run.
'Bhai Bhai' would have been the first silver jubilee for Madan Mohan.
Once it was yanked before achieving that commercial milestone, he began
to be seen as an unlucky MD and didn't get as many top-flight films as
his talents merited. He had to wait till 'Woh Kaun Thi?' for his
first silver jubilee film.
CR and MV Raman were personally close. Raman stayed with CR in latter's
peak period ('Pehli Jhalak', 'Asha') as well as his lean period ('Payal
Ki Jhankar'). I wonder if CR's association with Raman closed AVM doors
for him.
>These were the films where a 'stray' song given to non Lata singer were
>highlights of the film. Are there many soundtracks which has lots of songs
>equally shared by Lata and non Lata singers and maintain the consistency in
>quality? The first film came to my mind was Husnalal Bhagatram's 'Badi
>bahen'. Lata's 'Chup chup khade ho jaroor koi baat hai', 'Chale jana nahi'
>and 'Jo dil me khushi bankar aaye' all are pretty good and very popular
>songs. But they are no way any better or more popular than Suraiya's 'Woh
>paas rahe ya door rahe', 'Bigadi bananewale', 'Tum muzko bhul jao' and 'Ho
>likhanewale ne, likha di meri taqdeer main barbadi'.
One correction here. The song "chup chup kha.De ho" is not a Lata song.
In fact, Lata is the side singer here. The main singer is Premalata.
(Here, I am going by the order in which the singers are mentioned in
credits!) That song, with its infectious tune and catchy words, would
have been a hit regardless of the singers.
Later, responding to Chetan:
>I don't agree with your opinion that HB were not Lataiites. I have always
>felt that they were very much instrumental in the rise of Lata along with
>CR.
You are right. H-B were as much taken up with Lata as other music directors
of the era and Husnlal was there ahead of CR! This is regarding special
affinities. As for being instrumental in the rise of Lata, the list would
be long and contain most MDs other than OP Nayyar.
Chetan, however, is right in objecting to using 'Bari Bahen' in this context.
It is a 1949 film and it was a different regime: as sunccinctly expressed by
Chetan, "Lata was not yet LATA."
Ashok
Hemlata N. Khemani
> > Does possessing and having heard 'obscure' songs, more often than not,
> > give some kind of a high to a person?
Anil, it would be a good idea to ask this to yourself. What makes you
think you are not one of those "treasured" people. ;-)) ;-))
> I dont know about you, but my experience with rmimers has been most fortunate.
> I have never encountered on rmim anyone who has shown reluctance in sharing
> songs or sending me tapes. Even without asking, I have received tapes of
> songs that I have mentioned I have wanted. So I dont know who these people
> are you are talking about.
same here. The difference is that my list would include Neha also. Once
I mentioned on RMIM that I am not quite a Mukesh fan. I think I said that
when Neha and Snehal conducted their quiz. Anyway, what do I find in my
mailbox after a few days? Two tapes from Neha with a note that "try
listening to these, you "might" (Ikram, you may adore this word, but I
think I have fallen sriously in love with these "mights and maybe's"; not
quite with "mebbe" though, so can flirt with it as much as you want ;-))
;-))). Anyway, so what was my point? ;-)) Yes, she said that after
listening to those Mukesh songs, I might change my opinion about his
songs. Anyway, like Neha, I would also like to thank everyone again for
sharing some good music with me.
BTW, Neha, my opinion about Mukesh did change a little bit, but that
happened after I heard "ai jaan-e-jigar" from Aaraam. :)
Hema.
-
Speed gets you nowhere if you're headed the wrong way!
Surajit A. Bose
> In fact Ashok, Vish, Hrishi, Surajit, Preeti Ranjan, Satish Kalra, Veena,
> Ajay, Satish Subramanian, Anand Tiwari, Vandana Venkatesan, Sandeep Joshi,
> Sami, Kalyan, and many others...) have often times given me a tape even
> without my asking for it
Since Neha is too modest to include herself in the list of RMIMers who
mail tapes out unasked, let me assert that yes, she too belongs on that
list!
-s
vandana...@hotmail.com
> > What is it about having songs that very few people
> > have (or heard) that makes someone feel 'smug' and 'mighty' about it?
> > I have noticed this in many people on RMIM.
>
> Oh, don't keep ze names under your hat, Anil. Do tell. :)
Being the modest person that we all know Anil to be, he didn't want to
type in his own name, I imagine! :-)
>
> Of course, by "sharing", you might mean something like why don't "THEY"
> make a cassette/CD and send it out to you, me and other people. Did you
> mean this?
I would hardly think Anil meant this, Ikram. You know him better. Being
a strong adherer to the principle of 'pasand-apni-apni-khayal-apna-apna'
he certainly wouldn't want anyone to to impose their tastes on others!! :-)
Oh you won't believe the number of people who have imposed their tastes
on me! I have had some delightful "music-sharing-sessions" with P, Neha,
Vish and several others. They would play a song and tape it at the
same time and we would enjoy it or discuss it later. The last time,
Neha taped a bunch of really gorgeous Gujarati songs by Lata and Asha
for me. What can I say? :-) These people!
> >
> > Sorry, for opening another Pandora's box:-)
>
> "Sorry"?! Really??!! You don't say!!! :) :)
Ouch! I can tangibly feel the biting sarcasm in this line. Would you
just leave the poor guy alone? He is always so nice and apologetic
and full of charming disclaimers! :-)
>
> May I ask, however, why you didn't attempt to actually create a
> thread with the above topic (as opposed to just inserting it in
> a post on an absolutely delightful 'n delicious thread)? It
> stands the danger of languishing on a thread with such precious
> gems as we have seen already.
There, I have done it. Stop cribbing now.
:-)
>
> Later,
> Ikram.
>
Vandana.
vandana...@hotmail.com
> I guess I was waiting for a post with "such precious gems" to include this
> topic in, since this topic too belongs in the same trash can.
Belong in the trash can? Ouch!! That hurts since I was the one to kick
off the earlier discussion! Oh, oh, maybe you were you just referring
to your posts in the thread when you said the above?? :-)
I thought the discussion was rather interesting - especially Roopa's
beautifully analyzed and written post which you dismissed carelessly.
Very rarely does one see such clarity in thought and writing,
irrespective of whether one agrees with the point of view expressed
or not. Maybe she did talk about some issues that have been raised
already, but never before have they been articulated so well.
Especially the point about how we the listeners are the ones paying
the price for the MD's being largely non-experimentative with the
strengths of 'other' singers. They concentrated largely on the strengths
of Lata (which implies they circumvented her weaknesses, ofcourse!).
We are richer by a thousand stellar songs by Lata, but that still does
not make up for the fact that we are poorer for variety.
I see a lot of people entering the discussion rather gingerly, armed
with disclaimers about how the discussion wasn't going anywhere, and
such! Ashok, Sami, Anil Hingorani (>7 times, no less, despite claiming
they belong in the trash can), Snehal, Anant Rege, Surajit, Hrishi
(who wanted the flame to continue burning. Hrishi, I do too!), Chetan,
Roopa Dhawan (with one beautiful post), Neha, and several peripheral
posters.
Come on, people!! Jump in and say your bit bravely!! Like Ashok says,
who cares if the road leads nowhere as long as the route is scenic.
"Mausam mastana, rasta anjaana
jaane kab kis moD pe ban jaaye koi afsaana"
-- Asha Bhonsle & Dilraj Kaur in Satte pe Satta
Music: R.D. Burman; Lyrics: Gulshan Bawra
Recorded by Surajit Bose for me in his same-sex duets tape.
Vandana.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anil P. Hingorani
Mo
probably be repeated later..
Mo
she was an actress before she turned singer ..
rdh...@del3.vsnl.net.in
vandana...@hotmail.com wrote:
Thank you, Vandana, for your very gracious words of appreciation. I think by
the tail end of it, everyone felt like they may be going around in circles,
though, to second (or third) what you and Ashok said, what scenic circles
they were! So, viva la circles, I say, and may we have lots more!
SKalra902
>
>Come on, people!! Jump in and say your bit bravely!! Like Ashok says,
>who cares if the road leads nowhere as long as the route is scenic.
>
The only problem is that if the road does not lead to anywhere, one is bound to
run out of gas. (Pun intended.) :))))
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
Hemlata N. Khemani
> >Come on, people!! Jump in and say your bit bravely!! Like Ashok says,
> >who cares if the road leads nowhere as long as the route is scenic.
> >
>
> The only problem is that if the road does not lead to anywhere, one is bound to
> run out of gas. (Pun intended.) :))))
You think that's a problem? That too here on RMIM?!! What you see as a
problem, seems to me potentially more enjoyable than the scenic route.
Imagine this, you are travelling on a scenic route that doesn't lead
anywhere and run out of gas as expected. If you have the Common Indian
Musical spirit, you and your fellow travellers would not fret and fume.
You would rather sit in the middle of the road playing antakshari, singing
beautiful songs, "peeling layers of notes and lyrics" until someone else
comes by the same road and takes you on a different route...and life
continues. Now, where is the problem? ;-)) ;-))
RBModi
Redif on the net
website.
Rakesh
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Belong in the trash can? Ouch!! That hurts since I was the one to kick
> off the earlier discussion! Oh, oh, maybe you were you just referring
> to your posts in the thread when you said the above?? :-)
Or, maybe not :)
In any case, one (wo)man's trash can is another's treasure trove,
isn't it?
Agree whole-heartedly to your assessment of Roopa's writing. Now,
how can we make her write more and more often?
> Especially the point about how we the listeners are the ones paying
> the price for the MD's being largely non-experimentative with the
> strengths of 'other' singers. They concentrated largely on the strengths
> of Lata (which implies they circumvented her weaknesses, ofcourse!).
> We are richer by a thousand stellar songs by Lata, but that still does
> not make up for the fact that we are poorer for variety.
The question as to why this happened keeps badgering RMIM time
and again. Many theories about Lata's wicked ways, about
narcissistic heroines unwilling to sing in any voice other than
the One (or the Other One), about love-smitten music directors,
about box-office-minded producers who are highly superstitious
and formula-oriented etc. have been expounded in the past. And
they are all partly correct IMO. But one more can't hurt.
Indian film (and light) music is rather unique in the sense that
there is almost universal mutual exclusivity between those who
compose the tunes or write the songs and those who actually
perform them. This curious phenomenon probably has its roots in
theatre and early film (which was essentially an extension of
the theatre concept). The singing MD, the composing lyricist, the
poet-singer is a relative rarity, the numbers being appallingly
small for females. It is immediately evident that if this was
not the case, we would have had a lot more numbers sung by
S/R.D.Burmans, Usha Khannas, Hemant Kumars, Pradeeps, Ravindra
Jains etc. That is, we would have been the richer for variety.
Let us try to look at it from the MD's POV for a moment.
Here is an artist who has composed the most beautiful melody
ever (it is a matter of coincidence that the very same melody
was playing on the airwaves when our esteemed artist was yet
to be born). Now he is looking for the perfect instrument to
play this melody on. Yes, that's what I said. Maybe the MD
treats the singer as his instrument. (well, maybe not :) )
The creativity has been exhibited. Now only dexterity remains
to be shown. Then, why settle for an inferior instrument when
a superior one is available? (The vocal superiority of the two
sisters is beyond doubt I hope) This feeling of the ownership
of a song or a tune has led to the one-track nature of singer
choices. The results have been slightly perturbed whenever
other factors come into play (somebody's wife is a singer,
somebody has fought with somebody, whatever.) But the trend
is there to be seen by all.
We could get into some Freudian stuff about why this thing
was far more pronounced in the case of female singers. Perhaps
some other time, most likely never :)
> Come on, people!! Jump in and say your bit bravely!!
Meaning, all flames to vandana. She wants them anyway :)
C
rdh...@del3.vsnl.net.in
Chetan Vinchhi <cvin...@lucent.com> wrote:
> Agree whole-heartedly to your assessment of Roopa's writing. Now,
> how can we make her write more and more often?
:-). If I was even half as knowledgable (spelling?) as many people in this
group, you wouldn't hear the end of me! And speaking of not writing often
enough, look who's talking. How do we get Chetan to write more often?
Especially since there's a lot more information in that mind of yours than
there is in mine, which remains on the empty side most of the time!
Surajit A. Bose
> a superior one is available? (The vocal superiority of the two
> sisters is beyond doubt I hope) This feeling of the ownership
> of a song or a tune has led to the one-track nature of singer
> choices. The results have been slightly perturbed whenever
> other factors come into play (somebody's wife is a singer,
> somebody has fought with somebody, whatever.) But the trend
> is there to be seen by all.
The one problem with this theory is that the vocal superiority of Lata,
especially, WAS in doubt from the mid-seventies on. No objective listener
could claim that Lata's singing in, say, "kaahe manavaa naache" from ALAAP
or "aaj socha to aa.Nsuu bhar aaye" from DIL KI RAHEN demonstrates "vocal
superiority." In spite of this, Lata continued to be the most
sought-after singer.
I remember during the RMIMeet in DC a couple of years ago, some brave soul
(Pradeep, IIRC) asked Pdt Hariprasad Chaurasia why Shiv-Hari continued to
assign songs to Lata when her voice had failed so badly. He shrugged and
said that she was their friend, and she was Lata after all. He didn't
expend an iota of energy trying to defend Lata's singing; he didn't bother
to contradict the assertion that she was no longer a good singer.
In other words, whatever the reasons composers, producers, or fans have
for favoring Lata, they're not primarily musical ones. Yes, Chetan, they
are Freudian ones....
-s
nawat...@my-dejanews.com
> or "aaj socha to aa.Nsuu bhar aaye" from DIL KI RAHEN demonstrates "vocal
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't "aaj sochaa to aa.Nsuu bhar aaye" from
Hanste Zakhm? I distinctly remember Priya Rajvansh's wooden face wet with
glycerine tears during this song.
BTW I would put Priya Rajvansh on top of the list of artistes on whom good
songs have been wasted, followed closely by Joy Mukherjee. I can stand Bharat
Bhushan, Pradeep Kumar and Biswajeet but those two are unbearable!!!
Nita
Visit My Urdu Poetry Page:
http://www.geocities.com/~fhnaqvi/
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> The one problem with this theory is that the vocal superiority of Lata,
> especially, WAS in doubt from the mid-seventies on. No objective listener
> could claim that Lata's singing in, say, "kaahe manavaa naache" from ALAAP
> sought-after singer.
I confess I was not even thinking about the 70s. I had in my mind
the Golden Era when Lata was at the prime of her vocal ability.
But you just can't let it go, can you? Anything even slightly positive
about Lata that is. Since when did you start believing yourself to
be an objective listener? I don't think you have ever praised Lata
unequivocally. I mean you have said more and better things about
far lesser (even in an objecive way to be defined by *you*) singers.
When it comes to Lata, you only point out how screechy she was or
how lucky she was to get a golden tune like that or something of
that sort. Once, I remember, I had mentioned that Suraiyya was
musically less-than-perfect and you immediately challenged me with
a 50s Lata song where you thought she was off-key, perhaps trying
to imply that she was in the same league as or inferior to Suraiyya.
> I remember during the RMIMeet in DC a couple of years ago, some brave soul
> (Pradeep, IIRC) asked Pdt Hariprasad Chaurasia why Shiv-Hari continued to
> assign songs to Lata when her voice had failed so badly. He shrugged and
> said that she was their friend, and she was Lata after all. He didn't
> expend an iota of energy trying to defend Lata's singing; he didn't bother
> to contradict the assertion that she was no longer a good singer.
I do not know exactly what HC said and in what context since I was
not there. Did he say that he chose Lata ONLY because she was a
friend? And what did he mean when he said that she was LATA after
all?
> In other words, whatever the reasons composers, producers, or fans have
> for favoring Lata, they're not primarily musical ones. Yes, Chetan, they
> are Freudian ones....
That's right. We are the only one with the musical sense and the
objectivity to favour some other singer, ANY other singer. Other
poor mortals are just tin-eared idiots under the evil spell of
a sorceress. Howz that for Freudian reasons?
C
Surajit A. Bose
<cvin...@lucent.com> wrote:
> But you just can't let it go, can you? Anything even slightly positive
> about Lata that is. Since when did you start believing yourself to
> be an objective listener? I don't think you have ever praised Lata
> unequivocally.
So your idea of an objective listener is one who praises Lata unequivocally?
-s
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> > Since when did you start believing yourself to
> > be an objective listener? I don't think you have ever praised Lata
> > unequivocally.
>
> So your idea of an objective listener is one who praises Lata unequivocally?
No, one who doesn't avoid praising one particular singer.
C