Favorite songs, special moments
S Sreedhar
There are some gems in the Rafi repertoire that make for some
absolute magic moments. I remember listening to my collection
back in my grad school days (or should I say nights, since my
study habits were predominantly nocturnal :-) and my soul would
rise and sink with his voice and the feelings that he could
imbue in the song. I'm sure other RMIM'ers can relate with
that, especially Rafians. Why don't we have others share their
memorable moments with us?
I was listening to the Rafi-Geeta Dutt Duet collection (HMV) the
other day on my way back home from a long day at work, and as
a pick-me-upper, I couldn't recommend another song more heartily
than this one:
"Din ho ya raat, ham rahen tere saath, yeh hamaari marzi. (2)
Tumhaari marzi? Tumhaari tho hamaari bhi yehi hai marzi. "
Makes life worth living, what? :-)
There are some more splendid numbers in the same collection, but
as long as this tune (above) is resonating in my head, I can't recall
a single bar from those :-)
Later,
SS
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a funny thing about life; if you refuse to accept anything but
the best, you very often get it. - Somerset Maugham
ssre...@ford.com
______________________________________________________________________
Ramesh Hariharan
>
>There are some gems in the Rafi repertoire that make for some
>absolute magic moments. I remember listening to my collection
>back in my grad school days (or should I say nights, since my
>study habits were predominantly nocturnal :-) and my soul would
>rise and sink with his voice and the feelings that he could
>imbue in the song. I'm sure other RMIM'ers can relate with
>that, especially Rafians. Why don't we have others share their
>memorable moments with us?
>
>I was listening to the Rafi-Geeta Dutt Duet collection (HMV) the
>other day on my way back home from a long day at work, and as
>a pick-me-upper, I couldn't recommend another song more heartily
>than this one:
>
>"Din ho ya raat, ham rahen tere saath, yeh hamaari marzi. (2)
> Tumhaari marzi? Tumhaari tho hamaari bhi yehi hai marzi. "
>
>Makes life worth living, what? :-)
>
>There are some more splendid numbers in the same collection, but
>as long as this tune (above) is resonating in my head, I can't recall
>a single bar from those :-)
>
>Later,
>SS
ALL RIGHT ! Join the gang (us Rafians) .. For me Rafi slow solos with deep
lyrics have a special place. One song which belong in this extra-special
category:
Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare
--
Ramesh Hariharan
http://www.princeton.edu/~hariharn/
Himanshu Gupta
S Sreedhar <ssre...@tc8206.pto.ford.com> wrote:
[snip]
>I was listening to the Rafi-Geeta Dutt Duet collection (HMV) the
>other day on my way back home from a long day at work, and as
>a pick-me-upper, I couldn't recommend another song more heartily
>than this one:
>
>"Din ho ya raat, ham rahen tere saath, yeh hamaari marzi. (2)
> Tumhaari marzi? Tumhaari tho hamaari bhi yehi hai marzi. "
>
>Makes life worth living, what? :-)
Talking of Rafi duets, there is this delicious Rafi-Lata number with
which I was obsessed for quite a while recently......
Jeet hi lenge baazi hum tum, khel adhuraa tute na...
pyaar ka bandhan..janam ka bandhan...janam ka bandhan tute na...
[MD: Khaiyyam, Lyrics: Kaifi Azmi]
Lyrics expressing determination and chahat....."milataa hai jahaan
dharatii se gagan, aao vahii.n ham jaaen", "tu tu na rahe, main main
na rahuun...ek duuje mein kho jaaen", "main bhi na chhodun pal bhar
daaman, tu bhi pal bhar ruuthe naa"! I would have gladly typed the
whole lyrics but its already in ISB...so not much point.
Its one of those songs...which gives rise to the same feeling you
mentioned...makes life worth living.
Just preceding that (in the Rafi-Lata Golden Coll. CD) is another
beautiful duet......"Dekho ruutho na karo, baat nazron ki
sunon"....falls in that special category of romantic teasing-manaaoing
songs (Best in this category is of course Pyaasa's "Hum aapki aankhon
mein"). Lyrics _have_ to by Hasrat or Majrooh....lemme check. Hasrat,
it is. From "Tere ghar ke saamne". This movie is just full of
beauuuutiful songs.
Listened to these songs after quite some time. Made my day!
later,
--Himanshu
PS> Reminds me of another song from the same collection. Does anyone
else find the music of "Dheere dheere chal chand gagan mein" [MD: SJ]
annoying ??
Senthil K Kandasamy
In article <4jubst$9...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, hari...@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Ramesh Hariharan) writes:
|> In article <4js5u2$p...@eccdb1.pms.ford.com> ssre...@tc8206.pto.ford.com (S Sreedhar) writes:
|> >
|> >There are some gems in the Rafi repertoire that make for some
|> >absolute magic moments. I remember listening to my collection
|> >back in my grad school days (or should I say nights, since my
|> >study habits were predominantly nocturnal :-) and my soul would
|> >rise and sink with his voice and the feelings that he could
|> >imbue in the song. I'm sure other RMIM'ers can relate with
|> >that, especially Rafians. Why don't we have others share their
|> >memorable moments with us?
|> >
|> >other day on my way back home from a long day at work, and as
|> >a pick-me-upper, I couldn't recommend another song more heartily
|> >than this one:
|> >
|> >"Din ho ya raat, ham rahen tere saath, yeh hamaari marzi. (2)
|> > Tumhaari marzi? Tumhaari tho hamaari bhi yehi hai marzi. "
|> >
|> >Makes life worth living, what? :-)
|> >
You bet!
|> >There are some more splendid numbers in the same collection, but
|> >as long as this tune (above) is resonating in my head, I can't recall
|> >a single bar from those :-)
|> >
|> >Later,
|> >SS
|>
|> ALL RIGHT ! Join the gang (us Rafians) .. For me Rafi slow solos with deep
|> lyrics have a special place. One song which belong in this extra-special
|> category:
|>
|> Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare
|>
|>
|>
|> --
|> Ramesh Hariharan
|> http://www.princeton.edu/~hariharn/
Well, I used to trip on almost any romantic song by Rafi.(IMO , Rafi is
at his best when he is trying to be romantic rather than convey any
other emotion). But of late, I have really been addicted to sentimental
solos by Rafi.(delving deeper into my phd..that might be a reason)
ABSOLUT GEMS is one word (Well, two) to describe those songs.
Senthil
Suresh Mani
> deep
This is indeed one of the best songs of Rafi Sahab and one of my
favorites too. Million thanks to Rafi Sahab for giving us the
opportunity to listen to such gems.
Rafi Bhakth,
Suresh Mani
Ravi Krishna
"Aisa to na dekho.." from Teen Deviyan.
Excellently sung by Rafi. Music by my all time favourite S D Burman.
Harish Suvarna
$$$ This indeed is a great song. I made a duplicate of this original casset
for the fear of spoiling the tape becuase of repeated FF and Rew. I remember
Amin Sayani addressing Rafi as 'Hindustani Filmi Gaanom ki Baadshaa' in
one of the radio programmes. His forte is ability to sing any song. Duet, solo,
ghazal,classical, fast,slow,khawwali, light, and devotional. Not many can do
this. I can definitely say that Mukesh, Kishore do not have this kind of
repertoire. Only Mannadey is the other of this kind. The other great solos I
like are
kabhi khud pe kabhi haalat pe rona aayaa
baat nikli to har baat pe rona aaya.
Tujhe Kya sunaavu mere dilruba
tere saamne mera haal hai
I am banking on these kinds of great songs to survive in this alien land
away from home.
--
==================================================================
Harish Suvarna Work Phone: 415 933 4333
MIPS, Silicon Graphics Inc Home Phone: 408 383 0645
2011 N Shoreline Blvd Email: su...@mti.sgi.com
MS 10U-181, Mountain View
CA 94039-7311
==================================================================
Pradeep Dubey
|> > ALL RIGHT ! Join the gang (us Rafians) .. For me Rafi slow solos with
|> > deep
|> > Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare
|> > Ramesh Hariharan
|>
|>
|> This is indeed one of the best songs of Rafi Sahab and one of my
|> favorites too. Million thanks to Rafi Sahab for giving us the
|> opportunity to listen to such gems.
|>
|> Suresh Mani
Suresh: IMHO if you get to hear Kishore sing this song, you would
become a lesser "Rafi Bhakth" :-)
KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
And IMO he did a remarkably better job!
Pradeep
sm...@lehigh.edu
Dubey) writes:
>|> > Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare
>|> This is indeed one of the best songs of Rafi Sahab and one of my
>|> favorites too. Million thanks to Rafi Sahab for giving us the
>|> opportunity to listen to such gems.
>Suresh: IMHO if you get to hear Kishore sing this song, you would
> become a lesser "Rafi Bhakth" :-)
>KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
Must've been yet another "Shradhhanjali" :-)
>And IMO he did a remarkably better job!
Did he start yodeling after "koi na sang mare..." ? :-)
It's been a while since we had the "war", eh Pradeep ?
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... and a RAFIan
>Pradeep
*******************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Utna hi upkaar samajh koi, jitna saath nibhaade
Janm maran ka mel hai sapna, ye sapna bisraade
Koi na sang mare
Sahir in "Man re tu kaahe na dheer dhare...." (Chitralekha)
*******************************************************************************
_______________________________________________________________________________
|
Sami Mohammed |
Emulsion Polymers Institute | I polymerize,
Dept. of Chemical Engineering | Therefore, I AM
Lehigh University |
_______________________________|________________________________________________
Manjeet Rekhi
>ALL RIGHT ! Join the gang (us Rafians) .. For me Rafi slow solos with deep
>lyrics have a special place. One song which belong in this extra-special
>category:
>
>Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare
Equally good (and seducing) song is :
yeh teri saadgi, yeh tera baa.Nkpan ...
Anyone willing to help with lyrics ?
Mahesh Saptarshi
Dev Anand and Nutan
"tu kahA.n ye batA is nashIlI rAt me.n"
-----
Mahesh Saptarshi
Disclaimer: My employer has no opinion on this subject.
-----
Jane Doe
1. Jaane kya dhoondti rahti hain yeh aankhen mujh me (Shola aur Shabnam,
Khayyam(?))
2. Tootey hua khwabon ne (Madhumati, Salil C)
3. Dekhi zamaaney ki yaari, bichade sabhi baari baari..
4. Hum Bekhudi mein tum ko pukaare
Abhi to gam hai, jabhi khushiyaan aayengee to phir woh bhi baant lenge
Udit
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
Is there a tape? Kishore did this in a few shows after Rafi's death.
>And IMO he did a remarkably better job!
Sporting that he was, even Rafisahab would agree.
r
Ketan
On 10 Apr 1996, Rajan P. Parrikar wrote:
> pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) writes:
>
> >KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
>
> Is there a tape? Kishore did this in a few shows after Rafi's death.
There were atleast 2 concerts in the 80's where he sang it. One was KK
in LA and the other was (maybe) KK in Madison Square Gardens or
something. I don't remember which one I heard it in, since the tape I
had was purchased by a friend in UK, and was a hodge-podge of various KK
live shows. The other Rafi song I heard KK sing was "Kya huva tera
vada", and what a marvellous job he has done. I know Rafi won the
Filmfare award for that song, but RDB when he must have heard KK sing it,
must have wished he could turn the clock back. He starts off with no
musical accompaniment and the same tone in his voice as that of the sad
"Yeh dosti" at the end of Sholay and the crowd goes beserk.
When I heard it I forgot that the original was a Rafi song, and it was
only well into the middle of the song that I realised it. I think
personally IMHO, KK would have sounded better, but then I am a hard core
KKKlanner. I guess, it was just RDB wanting to keep Rafi for Tariq in
the movie, although he did use Rafi for Rishi K too.
> >And IMO he did a remarkably better job!
>
> Sporting that he was, even Rafisahab would agree.
>
Oh I am sure he would have infact insisted that the original be
re-recorded in KK's voice. :))
For a change nice to see Rajan and Pradeep writing after a long time, and
that too on a subject on which all 3 of us feel very strongly about. :)
Possibly Pradeep was reminded by the approaching first anniversary of the
RMIM meet wherein we defeated the Rafians atleast in the quizzes. :)
Ciao
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic) & a KK one too.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>In article <316975...@informix.com>, Suresh Mani <ma...@informix.com> writes:
> become a lesser "Rafi Bhakth" :-)
>
>
there are definitely some Rafi songs that KK could have done better.
I'm curious-does anyone have a recorded version of this?
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) writes:
>
>>KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
>
Yeah, yeah yeah...that RAFISAHAB...what the hell did he know about music
anyway? :)
Sami, sound the battle-cry...
s
>
Pradeep Dubey
|> pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) writes:
|>
|> >KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
|>
No Rajan ... I am not aware of any tape. But I did attend one
of those shows and this Kishore version is etched forever in my memory.
I especially remeber how he changed 'dheer dhare' to go much lower
than the original. And given the bass in this Genius's voice the effect
was simply too good. And of course this is something Rafi could never do :-)
(Please try to understand my honest efforts to wake up the Rafians!! ).
This 'heavy bass' is what Sanus of the world would die to get but ....
This is what makes 'koi hota jisko' or 'wo shaam kuchh' such a gem to
listen to. And IMHO other than Hemant and Jagjit, no other singer
comes even close to KK on this issue.
Pradeep
|>
|> >And IMO he did a remarkably better job!
|>
|> Sporting that he was, even Rafisahab would agree.
Oh Yesssssss, after reading Raju Bhartan's article on Rafisaheb's
big-hearted-ness, I have no doubt Rafisaheb would have agreed.
Pradeep
|>
|>
|>
|> r
|>
Suresh Mani
>
Is that so ? Could you please please let me know where can I get
this KK live cassette or preferably CD. If you think it's not
in any stores then please let me know if you can do me a favour of
recording this song and sending it to me.
I am a hard core KK fan too, but a true Bhakth of Rafi Sahab.
I don't have words to express the feelings and the amount of respect
that I have for both these singers.
Thanks for your valuable correspondence,
Rafi Bhakth,
Suresh Mani
ma...@informix.com
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
>No Rajan ... I am not aware of any tape. But I did attend one
>of those shows and this Kishore version is etched forever in my memory.
>I especially remeber how he changed 'dheer dhare' to go much lower
>than the original. And given the bass in this Genius's voice the effect
>was simply too good. And of course this is something Rafi could never do :-)
>(Please try to understand my honest efforts to wake up the Rafians!! ).
>|>
Yes, Kishore Kumar was a genius...and I will be the first to tell you
that Rafi was a quintessential tenor, while Kishore was a baritone with
some excellent facility in his upper range.
When you say he changed it, was it so that the ACTUAL PITCH was lower, or the
relative pitch was lower? What I mean is, Rafi sang the song in F major,
and his "Dha-re..."dropped from Mandra Nishaad to Mandra Pancham. Now
did Kishore Kumar drop LOWER than Pancham, (which would not be difficult
for him), or did he just sing in a lower SCALE (which would be natural
for him, seeing as he is a baritone)? Just a point of clarification.
Now, as to your remark about "...something Rafi could never do..." I
agree about the lower pitch thing. But understand this - Kishore Kumar's
having bass had NOTHING to do with his being a genius and Rafi NOT, the
same way Rafi's ability to negotiate high pitches (higher than Kishore)
had NOTHING to do with being a genius. You can only train your voice to
expand your range to a limited extent - after puberty, your voice is set
eventually in a particular range, or voice part: Rafi was a tenor,
Kishore was a baritone...Whether you like Baritones or Tenors better is
your choice. That too, from experience, it is MUCH easier to DEVELOP a
higher range (through falsetto, chor-galaa, or other vocal technique)
than it is to expand on the low if you don't already have it.
What is my point? Do I have a point? Well, maybe: comparing Rafi the
tenor to Kishore the baritone is a little like apples and oranges.
Kishore didn't sing semiclassical songs (OK, OK, the KKKlan is going to
jump all over me and say that he could have, but he himself said he
didn't feel COMFORTABLE singing such), but is Pandit Jasraj a better
singer than Kishore Kumar because he sings classical? Of course not...
The same way, Kishore Kumar is NOT better than Rafi just because he is a
bari, while Rafi is a tenor. You like bari's I like tenors, or vice
versa, so be it.
So after all that raving, I still agree that singing with huge bass is
something Rafi could never do. I am still a Rafi-an, I love Rafi to
death. My question to you KKKlaners is this - how many of you admit that
(personality traits aside) there are things Rafi did that Kishore Kumar could never do (and BELIEVE me there are...)?
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>hari...@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Ramesh Hariharan) wrote:
>
>Equally good (and seducing) song is :
>
>yeh teri saadgi, yeh tera baa.Nkpan ...
>
>Anyone willing to help with lyrics ?
>
(repeats not included)
Yeh teri saadgi, yeh tera baankpan
Jaan-e-bahaar, jaan-e-chaman, (haay!)
Taubaa-shikan...
>
I.
Chaal men shokhiyaan, yaa nasheeli bijliyaan
Har taraf yeh shor hai, gir padegaa aasmaan
Par teri khaamoshi, allaamaa...
(Yeh teri...)
II.
Yun khafaa na hoiye, surkh gaalon ki qasam
.........line missing here...............
Yeh sharam, yeh hayaa, marhabaa...
(Yeh teri...)
III.
Tirchhi nazron se na dekho, aashiq-e-dilgeer ko
Kaise teer andaaz ho, seedha to kar lo teer ko
Yeh gaya dil meraa, alvidaaa...
(Yeh teri...)
Pstats:
singer: Rafi
movie:Shabnam
MD:Usha Khanna
Lyrics:Javed Anwar
****: ???(I heard that it's Mehmood, of all people)
.
Pradeep Dubey
|> In article <4kdqrn$t...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>, pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep
|> Dubey) writes:
|>
|>
|> >|> favorites too. Million thanks to Rafi Sahab for giving us the
|> >|> opportunity to listen to such gems.
|>
|> > become a lesser "Rafi Bhakth" :-)
|>
|>
|>
|>
No Sami ... he controlled that urge and kept the song within
Rafi's perimeter :-) implying that this is how Rafi almost could
and should have sung ... not how Rafi simply couldn't have sung ...
Pradeep
|>
|> It's been a while since we had the "war", eh Pradeep ?
Yes ... '96 may just pass without one and that hurts some of us
(Ketan will agree ...) .
Pradeep
Pradeep Dubey
|> > KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
|> >
|>
|> Is that so ? Could you please please let me know where can I get
|> this KK live cassette or preferably CD. If you think it's not
|> in any stores then please let me know if you can do me a favour of
|> recording this song and sending it to me.
Suresh ... I didn't know of such a tape. But Ketan Dholakia (fellow RMIMer)
seems to have one in his possesssion as indicated in a followup here.
So you should get in touch with him (ke...@seminole.iag.net).
Pradeep
Ketan
On 15 Apr 1996, Pradeep Dubey wrote:
> In article <4ke0hf$3d...@ns1-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU>, sm...@Lehigh.EDU writes:
> |> In article <4kdqrn$t...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>, pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep
> |> Dubey) writes:
> |>
> |> >|> > Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare
> |>
> |> >|> This is indeed one of the best songs of Rafi Sahab and one of my
> |> >|> favorites too. Million thanks to Rafi Sahab for giving us the
> |> >|> opportunity to listen to such gems.
> |>
> |> >Suresh: IMHO if you get to hear Kishore sing this song, you would
> |> > become a lesser "Rafi Bhakth" :-)
> |>
> |> >KK sang it as his tribute to "Rafi" in a live performance here in US
> |>
> |> Must've been yet another "Shradhhanjali" :-)
> |>
> |> >And IMO he did a remarkably better job!
> |>
> |> Did he start yodeling after "koi na sang mare..." ? :-)
>
> No Sami ... he controlled that urge and kept the song within
> Rafi's perimeter :-) implying that this is how Rafi almost could
> and should have sung ... not how Rafi simply couldn't have sung ...
OOOFFF! Wah-Wah! Kya jawab diya hai. C'mon Rafians, u have to admit
certain limitations in your man. Even if your biased sensibilites do
portray yodelling as noise, you cannot deny the perfect "sur" in which
it is done.
It is only rarely that one gets to hear the work of the most mellifluous
voice, and the most melodious composer together, and in that I have attaind
enlightnment by listening to Salil C's and KK's "O Amar sajani Go" a
Bengali song, from the movie Antarghat. AM kind of obsessed by this
song. Rafi himself would have been the first to admit that he could not
have sung this better. BTW does anyone have any info on this movie, like
starcast etc?
>
> Pradeep
>
> |>
> |> It's been a while since we had the "war", eh Pradeep ?
>
> Yes ... '96 may just pass without one and that hurts some of us
> (Ketan will agree ...) .
Oh for sure! But I live on the motto--"Hum honhge kaamyaab". Looks
like all the Rafians have given up the fight as a lost cause. Amma Sami
Saab, do Polymers hold all that much of an interest, that you remain
mesmerized? Abhay has all but disappeared, and cool dude Ramesh, goes
around singing KK songs. On top of this we discover that Sami secretly
listens to KK songs too. Now Pradeep, who can you fight with, if the
generals of the opposing army defect to your side. Sigh! Oh well,
"zindagi ka safar hai yeh kaisa safar, koi samjha nahin, ...." about sums
it up.
Ketan
A Burman & a KK fan(atic)
Pradeep Dubey
|> In article <4kloto$l...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com writes:
|> >
|> >No Rajan ... I am not aware of any tape. But I did attend one
|> >of those shows and this Kishore version is etched forever in my memory.
|> >I especially remeber how he changed 'dheer dhare' to go much lower
|> >than the original. And given the bass in this Genius's voice the effect
|> >was simply too good. And of course this is something Rafi could never do :-)
|> >(Please try to understand my honest efforts to wake up the Rafians!! ).
|> >|>
|>
|> Yes, Kishore Kumar was a genius...and I will be the first to tell you
|> that Rafi was a quintessential tenor, while Kishore was a baritone with
|> some excellent facility in his upper range.
Great Sanjeev! Thanks for adding all those technical terms to my vocab
so that I sound more technical ... [Please don't take it otherwise ...
this is serious 'thank you' with no smileys]
|>
|> When you say he changed it, was it so that the ACTUAL PITCH was lower, or the
|> relative pitch was lower? What I mean is, Rafi sang the song in F major,
|> and his "Dha-re..."dropped from Mandra Nishaad to Mandra Pancham. Now
|> did Kishore Kumar drop LOWER than Pancham, (which would not be difficult
|> for him), or did he just sing in a lower SCALE (which would be natural
|> for him, seeing as he is a baritone)? Just a point of clarification.
Although I couldn't guarantee that KK and Rafi versions start off
at the same scale, I am pretty sure. The difference was exactly what
you said: Kishore 'sinks' down to lower than Rafi's note while singing
'dheer dhare', meaning lower than that '?? pancham' to 'pratham or dwitiyam :-)'
or whatever ...
|> Now, as to your remark about "...something Rafi could never do..." I
|> agree about the lower pitch thing. But understand this - Kishore Kumar's
|> having bass had NOTHING to do with his being a genius and Rafi NOT, the
|> same way Rafi's ability to negotiate high pitches (higher than Kishore)
|> had NOTHING to do with being a genius. You can only train your voice to
|> expand your range to a limited extent - after puberty, your voice is set
|> eventually in a particular range, or voice part: Rafi was a tenor,
|> Kishore was a baritone...Whether you like Baritones or Tenors better is
|> your choice. That too, from experience, it is MUCH easier to DEVELOP a
|> higher range (through falsetto, chor-galaa, or other vocal technique)
|> than it is to expand on the low if you don't already have it.
Very good point indeed! That is why KK-types are normally just
born and cann't be trained :-) (perhaps this is what you meant in technical
terms above). And this is why it hurts or pains the ear to hear Sanus of this world
trying to 'fake' baas. This poor soul Sanu almost sounds in those
instances as someone with no neck ! ( I can describe it better in person ...
keyboard is helpless when you don't know the word to describe).
|>
|> What is my point? Do I have a point? Well, maybe: comparing Rafi the
|> tenor to Kishore the baritone is a little like apples and oranges.
|> Kishore didn't sing semiclassical songs (OK, OK, the KKKlan is going to
|> jump all over me and say that he could have, but he himself said he
|> didn't feel COMFORTABLE singing such), but is Pandit Jasraj a better
|> singer than Kishore Kumar because he sings classical? Of course not...
|> The same way, Kishore Kumar is NOT better than Rafi just because he is a
|> bari, while Rafi is a tenor. You like bari's I like tenors, or vice
|> versa, so be it.
|>
|> So after all that raving, I still agree that singing with huge bass is
|> something Rafi could never do. I am still a Rafi-an, I love Rafi to
|> death. My question to you KKKlaners is this - how many of you admit that
|> (personality traits aside) there are things Rafi did that Kishore Kumar
|> could never do (and BELIEVE me there are...)?
Yes ... like KK couldn't sing: madhuban mein raadhika ...
But that's really not the point. Whatever KK was good at:
he was unparalleld!! Not so for Rafi ... yes he could sing
some 'classical' stuff BUT honestly, he was NOT the best
filmi/non-filmi classical singer. So the departments in
which Rafi excels over KK are the ones where he is excelled many
times by others. Where when KK excels, he is not excelled by
anyone!!
Pradeep
P.S. These yearly brawls aside: these were tow great singers of our times!!
|>
|>
|> Sanjeev Ramabhadran
|>
Ramesh Hariharan
>
>> No Sami ... he controlled that urge and kept the song within
>> Rafi's perimeter :-) implying that this is how Rafi almost could
>> and should have sung ... not how Rafi simply couldn't have sung ...
>
>OOOFFF! Wah-Wah! Kya jawab diya hai. C'mon Rafians, u have to admit
>certain limitations in your man. Even if your biased sensibilites do
>like all the Rafians have given up the fight as a lost cause. Amma
KK strikes out for several solid reasons
1) Being incapable of singing semiclassical songs. If I remember right
he was _scared_ of singing for Shiv-Hari. Unfortunately they came _DOWN_
to his level and were forced to keep their film compositions light. I am
not so sure it was a matter of choice there. Just imagine if the
magnificent Rafi had been there to sing for Shiv-Hari. We might have had
another masterpiece like "Madhuban mein radhika naache".
2) He never sang any devotional songs. While I agree that that he was
certainly capable of doing so, the fact that he never felt inclined
takes away an important component of my listening pleasures. The best he
did in this realm was "Guni janon bhakt janon" .. a totally shady song.
So KK is out for listening at 5:30 am in the morning. See .. I am no
longer a grad student .. I've been seeing those hours w/o doing
all-nights :-)
3) He sang a _LARGE_ number of radhdhi songs (Ketan I spelt that
correctly) :-) in the 80's .. Rafi was much more associated with the
golden period and maintained a certain standard. Was KK the symptom or
the cause of the decay in the 80's is not really clear !
Game, set, match to Rafi... !
>mesmerized? Abhay has all but disappeared, and cool dude Ramesh, goes
>around singing KK songs. On top of this we discover that Sami secretly
Cool.. me ? Hmm.. lagtha hai aaj garam paani mein nahana padega.. Well..
there's a good reason why I restrict myself to KK songs .. I am simply
not good enough to sing those sacred Rafi songs.
>
>Ketan
>
I am out of town for a bit .. will check back the war status when I get
back :-)
Ketan
On 16 Apr 1996, Ramesh Hariharan wrote:
> In article <Pine.SV4.3.91.96041...@seminole.iag.net> Ketan <ke...@seminole.iag.net> writes:
> >
> >> No Sami ... he controlled that urge and kept the song within
> >> Rafi's perimeter :-) implying that this is how Rafi almost could
> >> and should have sung ... not how Rafi simply couldn't have sung ...
> >
> >OOOFFF! Wah-Wah! Kya jawab diya hai. C'mon Rafians, u have to admit
> >certain limitations in your man. Even if your biased sensibilites do
> >Oh for sure! But I live on the motto--"Hum honhge kaamyaab". Looks
> >like all the Rafians have given up the fight as a lost cause. Amma
>
>
> KK strikes out for several solid reasons
>
> 1) Being incapable of singing semiclassical songs. If I remember right
> he was _scared_ of singing for Shiv-Hari. Unfortunately they came _DOWN_
> to his level and were forced to keep their film compositions light. I am
> not so sure it was a matter of choice there. Just imagine if the
> magnificent Rafi had been there to sing for Shiv-Hari. We might have had
> another masterpiece like "Madhuban mein radhika naache".
Imagine "Madhuban main radhika" in Silsila. Again, no one is denying
Rafi's superiority in this matter, but all we say, was Rafi was not the
best in semi-classical too. KK when approcahed to sing "Kasme vaade
pyaar wafa" by KA, opted out by saying that it was more suited to M.Dey
and that he should sing it. He did know his forte, and limitations.
Silsila for that matter had no need for any semi-classical numbers, so I
don't really think Shiv-hari came down to that level.
>
> 2) He never sang any devotional songs. While I agree that that he was
> certainly capable of doing so, the fact that he never felt inclined
> takes away an important component of my listening pleasures. The best he
> did in this realm was "Guni janon bhakt janon" .. a totally shady song.
> So KK is out for listening at 5:30 am in the morning. See .. I am no
> longer a grad student .. I've been seeing those hours w/o doing
> all-nights :-)
Wait a minute! We are talking about KK's overall singing right? Well,
here goes. Rabindra Sangeet, is devotional and only those who have been
trained in singing are invited to sing it on special occasions, like
festivals. Shantiniketan, invited an untrained, musically uneducated KK,
to sing at almost every occcasion. He makes ideal listening at 5:30 am
or for that matter throughout the 24 hr period.
> 3) He sang a _LARGE_ number of radhdhi songs (Ketan I spelt that
> correctly) :-) in the 80's .. Rafi was much more associated with the
Hm, methinks, u had intended to spell it differently. :)) Merely a slip
of the keyboard.
> golden period and maintained a certain standard. Was KK the symptom or
> the cause of the decay in the 80's is not really clear !
>
The reason for KK not being so much noticed in the Golden era were two
fold. Firstly due to the treatment meted out to him, by musicians, in
the late 40's, he would sing for only a select few MD's and that
too only for Dev. Even when he was acting he did not care much for
singing, and evn let Rafi sing for him. When his movie/acting career
picked up, atthat time, he used to sing for only the DEV-SDB combo,
besides movies of his own. Secondly, In 1958, soon after Chalti kanaam
Gaadi, he
requested SDB, to not give him anymore songs after Nau do Gyarah, as he
wanted to concentrate on his acting, thus forcing SDB, to go seek Rafi
and M.Dey whre he had so far relied on KK, Hemant K, and Talat for Dev.
By 1965, his acting career was going downhill, and SDB and Dev ever eager
for him, approached him again. He returned to singing for Dev with "Gaata
rahe mera dil", followed by "Khwaab ho tum ya". This probably gave Rafi
and M.dey an opportunity to corner the singing market. Besides with
soupy heroes like Rajendra Kumar, Pradeep K, Bharat B, etc around, this
suited the voice-face combo too. If you truly want a comparison, look at
the 70's when both of them were singing, and see who was preferred.
> Game, set, match to Rafi... !
>
Granted, but the Davis Cup to KK 4-1
Ketan
A Burman and a KK fan(atic)
Ketan
Firstly, my congrats to Sanjeev, on discussing this much flogged thread,
on a more refreshing note. The "wars" of the past and
the "khwaab-khaab" and similar discussions would make one reach out for
the bottle-- of Pepto Bismol. Keep it up Sanjeev.
> |> Yes, Kishore Kumar was a genius...and I will be the first to tell you
> |> that Rafi was a quintessential tenor, while Kishore was a baritone with
> |> some excellent facility in his upper range.
>
> Great Sanjeev! Thanks for adding all those technical terms to my vocab
> so that I sound more technical ... [Please don't take it otherwise ...
> this is serious 'thank you' with no smileys]
I second that.
> |> Now, as to your remark about "...something Rafi could never do..." I
> |> agree about the lower pitch thing. But understand this - Kishore Kumar's
> |> having bass had NOTHING to do with his being a genius and Rafi NOT, the
> |> same way Rafi's ability to negotiate high pitches (higher than Kishore)
> |> had NOTHING to do with being a genius. You can only train your voice to
> |> expand your range to a limited extent - after puberty, your voice is set
> |> eventually in a particular range, or voice part: Rafi was a tenor,
> |> Kishore was a baritone...Whether you like Baritones or Tenors better is
> |> your choice. That too, from experience, it is MUCH easier to DEVELOP a
> |> higher range (through falsetto, chor-galaa, or other vocal technique)
> |> than it is to expand on the low if you don't already have it.
> |>
> |> What is my point? Do I have a point? Well, maybe: comparing Rafi the
> |> tenor to Kishore the baritone is a little like apples and oranges.
> |> Kishore didn't sing semiclassical songs (OK, OK, the KKKlan is going to
> |> jump all over me and say that he could have, but he himself said he
> |> didn't feel COMFORTABLE singing such), but is Pandit Jasraj a better
> |> singer than Kishore Kumar because he sings classical? Of course not...
> |> The same way, Kishore Kumar is NOT better than Rafi just because he is a
> |> bari, while Rafi is a tenor. You like bari's I like tenors, or vice
> |> versa, so be it.
> |>
> |> So after all that raving, I still agree that singing with huge bass is
> |> something Rafi could never do. I am still a Rafi-an, I love Rafi to
> |> death. My question to you KKKlaners is this - how many of you admit that
> |> (personality traits aside) there are things Rafi did that Kishore Kumar
> |> could never do (and BELIEVE me there are...)?
While I agree with the majority of the above thread, I am compelled to
pose a few questions. Take 2 songs from Half-ticket--"Chill chill chilla
ke kajri sunaiy" and "Aakh seedhi lagi dil pe". In song # 1, if u listen
to KK doing the "are wah-wah wah's", you would see him having a range
quite capable of singing tenor. This I say after listening to the 3
tenors concert of Messrs Pavarotti etc. While KK's tenor is in the
confines of the Hindi film music, and hence should not be compared, it is
clear that that man, did have the range if he wanted to use it.
Secondly, in song # 2, through falsettos, chor-gallas, whatever, he has
nearly imitated a woman singing and alternately switched back and forth
between a man and a woman's voice, in the same breath. Now try singing
that, and you will see how difficult it is. This is ofcourse after
sounding exactly like as if Pran would have sung, which requires a
sharper edge to the voice. While KK was a baritone, and Rafi a tenor, KK
could do baritones for the Big B, Vinod K(Mere Apne), Sunil
Dutt(Zakhmee), as well as tenor(almost any Dev or Rajesh K song), and
never sound the same. Rafi too has done baritones, I am sure, but he
sounds uncomfortable doing it, and not as fresh. While their voices
might not have changed much, KK's voice is better able to jump around
than Rafi's. If we take range as the hallmark of a good singer, than
according to an interview of Naushad, Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, was the
greatest singer ever, followed by K.L.Saigal. In today's world or
atleast the last 40 years or so, I would say that title would have to be
held by Asha B, who can sing throaty "Dum maro Dum's as effortlessly as a
"Katra Katra".
Now imagine Rafi singing song # 1 above. Simply not possible.
> Pradeep
> P.S. These yearly brawls aside: these were tow great singers of our times!!
>
Whole heartedly agree to that. Rafi comes a close second,just falling
behind KK by a baritone.
Ketan
A Burman and a KK fan(atic)
>
> |>
> |>
> |> Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> |>
>
>
Pradeep Dubey
Here is a response to his three complaints regarding KK:
|> 1) Being incapable of singing semiclassical songs.
I had already anticipated this (being a veteran in this war by now)
and have already responded to this in my response to Sanjeev's post.
What a coincidence, I infact even anticipated the song right: madhuban mein ...
Briefly speaking: if I really want to listen to the best filmi/non-filmi
classical: Rafi would neither be my first nor my only choice!!
|> He never sang any devotional songs.
To disprove this, it is enough to list the following KK gem
from 'Chhoti Bahu':
he re kanhaiya kisko kahega tu maiyaa ...
Further more, I think his "dekho o diwaanon ... raam ka naam badnaam"
is perhaps a better bhajan to listen to at 5:30am than many others.
|> He sang a _LARGE_ number of radhdhi songs
OK ... start listing 'radhdhi' songs of KK, and for each one you list,
I will give you one (if not more) of Rafi's.
Pradeep
Harish Suvarna
Harish Suvarna
excelled no one came nearby.
I Totally agree with Pradeep. Like The humming before the start
of 'Tere Mere Milan ki' with that kind of bass only KK could do.
But are there no such departments where Rafi also excelled? So far everyone
picked only classical/semi-classical.
1) Devotional Songs - We have others singing like Hemant (Darshan do ghan
shyam??), Mannadey, MK, Mukesh. I can not exactly say that Rafi is the only
choice. But coming to KK, to me he can not express Bhakti Ras at all. Eventhough
Pradeep quoted a song from choti bahu and 'ram ka naam badnaam na karo'. KK
does'nt come to mind at all if I want to hear at 5.30am.
2) Semi-Classical- Mannadey is on par
3) Khawwalis - Mannadey is there again (yaari hai Imaan mera). So Rafi is not
Unique. KK????? The characteristic of a khawwali is that the scale (tune) just
goes up, down, with lots of variations. I rule out KK here.
4) Peak Songs - Songs which go to highest scales. Here the becnhmark is like
Yeh duniyaa ke rakh waale sun dard bhre mere naare. I would like to hear
whom else will a MD think of when the song really has to go 'uuuuuuupppar'.
5) Ghazals - Talat Mehmood is there. We have to forget KK here. Sorry Dubey
saab,
and Ketan Bhai.
6) Crazy Songs - Chaahe koi mujhe jungleee, Baar dekho etc. but KK him self is
on par or better
7) Sentimental Songs - These are not total 'ronaa' songs. i.e. these are not
the situations after someone dies, or after a big catastrophy. These are
sensistive situtaions. The 'voice' must
NOT be 'mota (fat)' at all. It calls for expression of light sentiment through
voice. For ex, we had an argument that Kishore could have done
much better with 'man re tu kaahe na dheer dare' because he has much lower bass.
I would TOTALLY disagree with that statement. To sing this song you dont need
lot of bass but it needs only X amount of bass and in my view only Rafi has
that X. This X amount is not characteristic of Rafi's voice. But the song will
be pleasnat with X amount of bass. Because the song's lyrics/situation need a
little sadness. KK can not express little sadness. His voice emphasizes on
sadness. This is not because of lyrics
or tunes, It is because of his bass. I am ruling out Mukesh, Mannadey, Talaat
in these situations. Mukeshg ko I would put him in much more sad department.
The others can not express the sentiment as Rafi does.
The other 'situations' I put here are 'Teri Pyaari Pyaari surat ko kisi ki
nazar naa lage', 'Tujhe kya sunaao mere dilrubaa', 'ehsaan teraa hogaa mujh
par',
'kabhi khud pe kabhi haalat pe', 'chal ud jaa re panchi', 'Pardesiyo se na
akhiya milaana', 'badi door se aaya hu, tofa laaya'.
Yeh Ilaakha me Rafi ke nazdeek koi bhi nahin aa sakta hai.
He is unique here just as KK is unique for his bass in some other departments.
KK fans will come and list songs like 'dukhi man mere', 'koi humdum naa raha',
'sheeshonke ghro me rahate hai', 'manzile apni', 'badi suni suni hai', 'itna
madhur it na madhur aisa apna pyaar (antra)'. These are all great songs I enjoy
a lot. KishoreDa is huge hit but becauase of his bass only. But he is not near
Rafi in expressing emotion in the voice.
I hope I expressed myself clear. To give analogy, in olden days, when they make
silk sarees, they have to form strings. The skill/artistry was how 'thin' you
can make a string given raw silk material. Rafi can 'silk' very well.
It is always true that to sing a typical KK song is easier than sing a typical
Rafi song. KK's is always flat and Rafi's lot of variations.
I would conclude this by comparing this with Olympics Gymnastics rather than
tennis. Rafi gets the AllRound Gold (Obviously) and Individual Golds more than
anyone else in Indian Filmi singers.
-harish
Ps: I really liked all the postings. They were full of aruments, counter
attacks, humour and vocabulary too!!. Sanjiv Miyaa, I am going to use
'baritone' and 'tenor' from now onwards.
rebala gopinath
more credit to the other greats (mostly ignored in RMIM) viz. Talat,
Manna, Hemant, Mukesh, Chitalkar etc. If it comes to branding oneself,
though I abhor the practice, I would call myself chitalkaran :-) CR
is probably the most underrated. Haven't seen a single fan of his singing
except yours truly.
The one aspect of the KK-Rafi war I am not enamoured with is the total
disregard/indifference to the other great singers. This is particularly
bad when the Klan people and Rafians are in a conciliatory mood. "Agreed
KK/Rafi was also good but Rafi/KK was the greatest" etc. => "Others just don't
exist"!!
There is a large category of songs in which both KK and Rafi (both great
singers) wouldn't be the best choice. eg. Choice of SDB (who IMHO had a great
choice of singers both male and female depending on the song. Talk about
effective use of resources!) reflects the specific talents/specialities
of these singers. Agreed the other greats were not so versatile but more
of specialists.
Take one such category - Sad (dard-bhara) songs. Nobody can come close
to Mukesh. KK's "Dukhi man mere" is good but hardly dukhi and Rafi starts
crying when he trying to convey genuine pathos (if he doesn't go for the
high-pitch a-la Mahendra Kapoor). Mukesh with his natural ability is the
man for the occasion. Who else could soothe your wounded heart better!!
Agreed Mukesh has lots of bad songs but who doesn't. If KK and Rafi have
a larger number of good songs they also have a larger number of bad songs.
One sentiment often expressed in RMIM is "A nice song but would have been
better if Rafi/KK/Lata/Asha had sung it". The best period for Hindi music
(50's and early 60's) was when a wide variety of talented singers enriched
the songs with their unique talents. It brought out a greater variety and
the best out of the MD's. OTOH look at the late 60's - Lata, Rafi and Asha
had pretty much the monopoly as the other greats had faded away and what
a fall there was in the quality of Hindi music.
All the above is IMHO.
Regards,
Kalyan
kal...@sybase.com
And I thought Saigal was the greatest ever.
Pradeep Dubey
annual 'halla-gulla contest'. Harish has fired addtional shots
from Rafian's camp that will be soon responded. Rebala wants
this to become a world war and claims it's dicriminatory to
restrict it to the two superpowers :-) Fine with me.
I will continue to fight until I am spending so much
time as risk my 'roti', i.e. 'my job'.
First to Harish:
a) same devotional song issue: there is really no good reason why
Rafi was such a superb bhajan-singer and KK was not. Also, as Ketan
suggested, if you include "Robindro Songeet' stuff (not all devotional),
this argument loses its weight. I will try to remember some other KK's
hindi bhajan, but I hardly ever get-up at 5:30a or feel religious enough
to sing/listen to this stuff, so may not succeed.
b) semi-classical: addressed this issue multiple times ... would add some more
examples, other than obvious ones such as: mere naina ..., don't forget
paayal waali dekh naaa .... and aamaar deep nebhaano raat (bengali gem).
c) Qawwallis: KK HAS SUNG quite a few of this type. One where
he proved himself to be at par with Rafi-Manna types (meaning:
excluding, Sabri Bros types), was in a Rishi-Neetu film, MD: RDB
Rishi is singing on train tracks next to Neetu's bangala.
I am sure other Klansmen can dig up more examples. Please
keep in mind we are not arguing with quantity here but rather quality.
Perhaps lines of reasonings such as: "... scale (tune) just
goes up, down, with lots of variations (so) I rule out KK here ..." are
even worth responding too. I am sorry but there is absolutely no basis
for such a claim. Without trying to pick a new example: if you just listen
to that 'antarghaat' (bengali) song Ketan is obsessed with, you will change
your mind forever on this issue. This is a classic Salil composition
with more ups and downs that wildest great-america rollercoasters.
d) Peak songs: When KK yoddels he is often going to the notes quite a few
octaves beyond mortals like: Rafi and MK. Other than this art,
there is nothing much in sheer ability to go to high notes.
MK and Chanchal-types can put Rafi types to shame if this were some
meaningful measure with any correlation with song quality. Mukesh
had perhaps the most limited range but has often done wonders (see
I didn't forget the world-war scenario :-)
e) Ghazals: Again quantity based comparisons aside, if you have quality
in mind, KK doesn't lose out to anyone here either. Just listen
to: jaane kya sochkar nahin guzraa ... and you would know what I mean.
In any case the crown in this case (whatever it's worth) goes to
the 'depression king': Talat M :-)
f) Crazy songs: no need to say anything, KK rules the world not just bollywood.
g) Sentimental songs: This is the category where Harish's response
surprised me to the extent that I was almost bowled 'hit wicket'.
On the other hand, this may be a more common myth than I have realized.
IMHO: KK's class is better proven through his 'sentimental' songs than
through his 'crazy' songs (which may have given him more fame). Rafi
IMHO was total failure at times when he landed up 'sobbing' to convey
'dard' in songs such as: baabul ki duaaYeN ... Harish: I request
you to get hold of KK's sentimental classics (too many to list a few,
although I will list, if pressed) and listen to some. Note this is completely
orthogonal to 'bass' in voice. If there is ever a competetion among
singers with best 'light or heavy' sad songs: the finalists will be none
other than KK and Mukesh, and then given KK's ability to combine his
range and dard: he should win. But after recently listening to some
of Mukesh's older songs (kaise manaaun mitwaa), I am less forceful in
this conclusion.
I don't know how exactly you define: little sadness. But KK's success in combining
little sadness and little anger: in songs such as: mere mehboob qayaamat
and meri bheegi bheegi si ... is unparalleled! Noone comes even close
to KK in mixing the two 'pains': real-pain and sham-pain:-) listen
to KK in: mujhko baar baar yaad na aa (raagini: OPN).
Please be more specific about what is the common sentiment in these
songs and how is it different from others: 'Teri Pyaari Pyaari surat
ko kisi ki nazar naa lage', 'Tujhe kya sunaao mere dilrubaa',
'ehsaan teraa hogaa mujh par',
f) Finally: I must be missing something: after taking Rafi out from
most of the bollywood's sangeet-city 'ilaakha's, how did you define that
last 'ilaakha' of Rafi. Again, please try to define it in words
rather than song-lists for me to understand your pount better.
Pradeep
P.S. was this the longest ever post :-) (Olympic gold medal claims ignored
to save net-bandwith :-))
Kishor
It's great to see the analysis being done on two of the greatest musical
talents the hindi film
world has seen. And it's more refreshing to see that this fight is real
healthy.
Harish Suvarna wrote:
> So far everyone
> picked only classical/semi-classical.
I would to make a point here.When it comes to classical or
semi-classical, film music is not the
best medium. One should listen to Mallikarjun Mansurs, Jasarajs, Prabha
Atres. Film music is here to express emotions thro' simple music which
can be understood and enjoyed by the common
masses. It does not mean that film music should be void of such stuff.
But when it comes to this
there are better singers than Md.Rafi. It does not, in any way,
undermines his capabilty as a
good singer. He was one of the best that happened to the film music of
India. But when it comes
to film music it is one's ability to express right quantity of emotion
thro' a song. Ofcourse
this has to be supplemented by command over the voice and good tonal
quality.
I rate MannDay to be par with Rafi when it came to semi-classical songs.
> 4) Peak Songs - Songs which go to highest scales. Here the becnhmark is like
> Yeh duniyaa ke rakh waale sun dard bhre mere naare. I would like to hear
> whom else will a MD think of when the song really has to go 'uuuuuuupppar'.
I agree here. But to be a great singer it is not necessary that you
should hit the high notes.
As I said the beauty of music can be conveyed very well by putting right
emotions behind that song.
Trying to understand the situation on the screen, the character that is
singing on screen
constitute the critical parts of play back singing. I can remember Lata
Mangeshakr's interview
here. She was told at some point in her career by music director to
concentrate more on the
aspects mentioned above than giving too much attention to the musical
aspects like how does one
do this taan etc. etc. So, this points to the fact that to be truely
doing a justifiable job
as a plaback singer one needs to do more on this front.
> 6) Crazy Songs - Chaahe koi mujhe jungleee, Baar dekho etc. but KK him self is
> on par or better
When it comes to this, KK put lot more into the song. Like,the way he
adopted in putting 'words'
into the song. Saying words like 'bum bum','brum,brum'. Nobody could do
this more effectively
than him. He put so much life into songs that even mediocre tunes looked
so hummable and
'listen'able. I think I put him above anyone else in this category. As
for improvisation and
being creative he was the best.
>
> 7) Sentimental Songs - These are not total 'ronaa' songs. i.e. these are not
> the situations after someone dies, or after a big catastrophy. These are
> sensistive situtaions. The 'voice' must
> NOT be 'mota (fat)' at all. It calls for expression of light sentiment through
> voice. For ex, we had an argument that Kishore could have done
> much better with 'man re tu kaahe na dheer dare' because he has much lower bass.
> I would TOTALLY disagree with that statement. To sing this song you dont need
> lot of bass but it needs only X amount of bass and in my view only Rafi has
> that X. This X amount is not characteristic of Rafi's voice. But the song will
> be pleasnat with X amount of bass. Because the song's lyrics/situation need a
> little sadness. KK can not express little sadness. His voice emphasizes on
> sadness. This is not because of lyrics
> or tunes, It is because of his bass. I am ruling out Mukesh, Mannadey, Talaat
> in these situations. Mukeshg ko I would put him in much more sad department.
> The others can not express the sentiment as Rafi does.
>
I do not agree to the point made by you that KK did not put much emotion
into it. If you consider the majority of so called emotional songs by
Rafi, they appear to be more suited to
a drama stage. Like "o duniya ke rakhawale", "babul ki duwayen leti jaa"
etc.etc.
The songs like "aane wala pal","zindagi ka safar","rim jhim gire
saawan","yeh jeevan hain"
"khushi do ghadi ki","dil aisa kisi ne mera toda" etc. etc show perfect
balace of emotions. These are not rona dhona songs. I think majority of
his songs for Gulzar had this right kind of emotions expressed. He had
many more than these.
> The other 'situations' I put here are 'Teri Pyaari Pyaari surat ko kisi ki
> nazar naa lage', 'Tujhe kya sunaao mere dilrubaa', 'ehsaan teraa hogaa mujh
> par',
>
> 'kabhi khud pe kabhi haalat pe', 'chal ud jaa re panchi', 'Pardesiyo se na
> akhiya milaana', 'badi door se aaya hu, tofa laaya'.
>
> Yeh Ilaakha me Rafi ke nazdeek koi bhi nahin aa sakta hai.
>
> He is unique here just as KK is unique for his bass in some other departments.
> KK fans will come and list songs like 'dukhi man mere', 'koi humdum naa raha',
> 'sheeshonke ghro me rahate hai', 'manzile apni', 'badi suni suni hai', 'itna
> madhur it na madhur aisa apna pyaar (antra)'. These are all great songs I enjoy
> a lot. KishoreDa is huge hit but becauase of his bass only. But he is not near
> Rafi in expressing emotion in the voice.
>
I again disagree here. The statement that KK did not express emotions
properly is wrong.
KK had a bass voice but that alone is not a factor in making him such a
hit. It is his creativity, doing new things with the songs, the way he
sang them. All have a stamp of his
genius. CAn you imagine how lively the songs like "chala jaata
hun","mere sapanon ki rani",
"khaike pan","zindagi ek safar" etc etc sound?. There is life in them.
Even without visuals they evoke the same kind of reactions and responses
in you. That's the power of voice.
> I hope I expressed myself clear. To give analogy, in olden days, when they make
> silk sarees, they have to form strings. The skill/artistry was how 'thin' you
> can make a string given raw silk material. Rafi can 'silk' very well.
>
> It is always true that to sing a typical KK song is easier than sing a typical
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Rafi song. KK's is always flat and Rafi's lot of variations.
>
But can you put the same life into those songs?. Can someone sing "main
hun jhumroo" with same
ease and effect?. If you consider this same song, it had so many
variations and he alone could
bring that special effect to that. If you listen to "rup tera mastana"
it reflects on his
variation capabilities on the other side of the spectrum. How can one
say that he was flat and
emotionless?. It is he who brought a new singing style to the existing
monotonous way. His
approach, style and voice brought a fresh breeze to Hindi film music in
the late sixties. I think he ruled after that. His second entry as a
playback singer changed the scene of the film
singing forever. In this respect his was a different school of singing.
A gharana in itself, if
I have the freedom of calling it that way. With some practice one can
try and imitate these
geniuses but they can nerver eaul these. I salute both of them for their
"own" contribution
to the world of music.
> I would conclude this by comparing this with Olympics Gymnastics rather than
> tennis. Rafi gets the AllRound Gold (Obviously) and Individual Golds more than
> anyone else in Indian Filmi singers.
>
Winnig gold alone is not important in Olympics. It's the contribution
that one makes towards
bringing the spirit back to the masses. That way both were great in
their own rights.
bye,
Kishor.
Anup Pandey
meaningless :-) complaints regarding KK.
1) You know KK can't sing a song like "Duniya ke Rakhwale" or
"Madooban main radhika" or in other words he is incapable of
singing classical/semi classical & devotional songs.
Oh yeah! how do you know that. Did Kishore tell you about that,
or did you listen to him trying to sing these songs :-).
The other side as very well presented by Pradeep is that even if Rafi
sang some really great devotional/classical/semi-classical songs,
he did'nt rule these categories. There were different masters.
There is another flaw in this argument. I don't think KK or Rafi can
do full justice to following songs
a) Laga Chunri main daag (Singer: Manna Dey)
b) Zara najron se kehdo ji(Singer: Hemant Kumar)
c) Baharon ne mera chaman loot kar (Singer: Mukesh)
d) Kahe ko roye (Singer: SD Burman)
e) Jalte hain jiske liye(Singer: Talat)
Well lets go into deep waters, also these songs
f) Dil Ke Tukde (Singer:Yesudas)
g) Kasme ham apni jaan(Singer: Anwar)
h) Jab Jab tu mere saamne aaye(Singer: Jaspal Singh)
i) Dil dhoondta hai phir wahi(Singer: Bhupinder Singh)
Does that mean I can proclaim any of these singers as better than Rafi
or KK. There is no Kishore Kumar song that I think Rafi can do a better
:-) job, take for example. these songs
a) Zindagi ek safar hai suhana (Andaaz)
b) Mere dil main aaj kya hai (Daag)
c) Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi (Khamoshi)
d) Bhool gaya saab kuch (Julie)
e) Khayike paan (Don)
f) Ek Chatur Naar (Padosan) .........
You get the picture. :-)
2) KK sang many radhdhi/useless songs
Oh yeah! Lyrics were bad, music was bad but KK gets the blame :-@. Its
just that Rafi was lucky to have really great songs(lyrics as well
music).
As Pradeep pointed he too had his share of useless songs.
Now comes the part why KISHORE KUMAR rules :-)
1) Why great stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand,Raj Kapoor, Shammi Kapoor
did'nt become super-stars and Rajesh Khanna and later Amitabh Bachhan
despite their limitations became a superstar.
Give yourself 100 points if you answered "KISHORE KUMAR". Rajesh Khanna
had the magical voice of Kishore Kumar to back him up. Lets put it this
way, movies in general had a better theme, better lyrics, better music,
better acting in pre Rajesh Khanna era. What was missing was Kishore
Kumar with full force in singing arena. Its even more true in Amitabh's
case. I believe :-) that if Shammi Kapoor had Kishore singing for him
he could have been a superstar too. Dev Anand came somewhat close to
super-stardom, because KK did sing for him occassionaly :-)).
2) KK being an actor was a master in playback singing. Lets take an
example of very beautiful song by Rafi "Huyi Shaam unka khayal aa gaya"
on Dharmendra. Its a very good song but when you see on the screen on
Dharmendra it just does'nt match with him. On the other hand here are
some KK master-piece
1) Saala main to sahab ban gaya & Aag lagi hamri (on Dilip Kumar)
2) Mere sapno ki raani (on Rajesh Khanna)
3) Khayike paan banaras waala & Khatoon ki khidmat (on Amitabh)
4) Tum bin jaoon kahan (on Bharat Bhushan)
5) Ghungroo ki tarah (on Shashi Kapoor)
None comes close to genius of Kishore in playback singing.
3) Kishore, even when he used yodelling, voices in the songs he never
lost the tempo of songs and took them to new heights. IMHO he did
experimentation on his own(yeah I am assuming!) and came on the top,
while Rafi delivered whatever MD wanted(again an assumption!). Kishore
was thus an experimenter whose experiments proved very successful while
Rafi was limited by MD's requirements.
Cheers
Anup
P.S. This war is really fun :-), and very easy if you are defending the
#1 singer "Kishore Kumar".
--
*************************************************************************
* Anup Pandey *
* *
* All standard disclaimers apply. *
*************************************************************************
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
>though I abhor the practice, I would call myself chitalkaran :-) CR
>is probably the most underrated. Haven't seen a single fan of his singing
>except yours truly.
Although I do like some of CR's songs, I wouldn't really call myself a fan of
CR the singer. In fact, many a time I have really wished that CR had made either
Rafi or Talat sing some of his own songs. IMHO, there was something missing in
his voice that would prevent him from conveying the mood of the song.
He did manage to sing the songs well, but somehow I always felt that
something was lacking. He did try to pull a Talat in Aazaad ("Kitna hasin
hai mausam...", but didn't quite succeed. He has sung quite a few songs with
catchy tunes (eg. "Shola jo bhaRke...") which have become immensely popular,
but I feel that the popularity stemmed from the tune rather than his
singing. And there are some tunes I treasure which he took upon himself to
sing. For instance the lori "Dheere se aaja ri ankhian me...." is an absolute
marvel, but it loses a lot of of it's lustre in his voice. Perhaps that is what
separates a great singer from a good one. Take the other other lori form
Shabaab
for comparison "Ho, chandan ka palna, resham ki dori...." Hemant Kumar's
soporific voice adds to the magic. In the former, the Lata version (and portion)
is absolutely stunning as well.
>The one aspect of the KK-Rafi war I am not enamoured with is the total
>disregard/indifference to the other great singers.
By definition, the RAFI/kk wars are bet. Rafi and KK... there's no room for
other singers :-) Anyway, those were just friendly wars, not serious
discussions.
>This is particularly
>bad when the Klan people and Rafians are in a conciliatory mood. "Agreed
>KK/Rafi was also good but Rafi/KK was the greatest" etc. => "Others just don't
>exist"!!
:-) That's a good point. But u have to agree that Rafi and KK were the two
most successful and versatile singers. So, one has much more ammo for these
singers as compared to others. Moreover, there's not much fun in proving
Rafi/KK > Mukesh etc. :-) Perhaps it's because a strong lobby for these singers
doesn't exist on RMIM.
As far as discussions on Mukesh, Talat etc are concerned, we did have some on
RMIM in the past (although not as many as those on Rafi and KK). I'm sure I'd
jump in if someone started a thread.
>There is a large category of songs in which both KK and Rafi (both great
>singers) wouldn't be the best choice. eg. Choice of SDB (who IMHO had a great
>choice of singers both male and female depending on the song. Talk about
>effective use of resources!) reflects the specific talents/specialities
>of these singers. Agreed the other greats were not so versatile but more
>of specialists.
>Take one such category - Sad (dard-bhara) songs. Nobody can come close
>to Mukesh.
Whoa! Just because Mukesh was good exclusively at sad songs, doesn't imply that
he was the best. Moreover, SDB, whom you praise in the above passage didn't
really think highly of Mukesh...
>KK's "Dukhi man mere" is good but hardly dukhi and Rafi starts
>crying when he trying to convey genuine pathos
Whoa #2!! :-) Mukesh starts crying even when he is NOT trying to convey
genuine pathos! (Just a flame bait from a RAFIan :-) ) There are plenty of
examples of Rafi conveying pathos in very subtle terms.
>(if he doesn't go for the
>high-pitch a-la Mahendra Kapoor).
Whoa #3! Please... Rafi never went a la mKaps.
>Mukesh with his natural ability is the
>man for the occasion. Who else could soothe your wounded heart better!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
TALAT!!
"Mera jeevan saathi bichhaR gaya, lo quatm kahaani ho gaee.."
"Hum dard ke maaron ka itna hi fasaana hai..."
"Seene me sulaghte hain armaan...."
"Chal diya kaarwaan...."
There are plenty of egs. from Rafi as well...
>Agreed Mukesh has lots of bad songs but who doesn't. If KK and Rafi have
>a larger number of good songs they also have a larger number of bad songs.
While Rafi and KK have a wide variety of songs that are good, Mukesh doesn't.
>One sentiment often expressed in RMIM is "A nice song but would have been
>better if Rafi/KK/Lata/Asha had sung it". The best period for Hindi music
>(50's and early 60's) was when a wide variety of talented singers enriched
>the songs with their unique talents. It brought out a greater variety and
>the best out of the MD's. OTOH look at the late 60's - Lata, Rafi and Asha
>had pretty much the monopoly as the other greats had faded away and what
>a fall there was in the quality of Hindi music.
On the flip side, why did Mukesh, Talat, etc. fade away before Lata, Rafi and
Asha ?
>All the above is IMHO.
Ditto.
I'm going to follow-up Harish's post here as well since it hasn't reached my
site yet...
>In article <4l60k7$r...@chronicle.mti.sgi.com>, Harish Suvarna <sundu> wrote:
>>3) Khawwalis - Mannadey is there again (yaari hai Imaan mera). So Rafi is not
>>5) Ghazals - Talat Mehmood is there. We have to forget KK here. Sorry Dubey
>>saab,
>>and Ketan Bhai.
Yup, we might as well forget KK in the quawwali and GHazals category.... he
does have a couple of GHazals here and there, but nothing exceptional.
>>7) Sentimental Songs - These are not total 'ronaa' songs. i.e. these are not
>>be pleasnat with X amount of bass. Because the song's lyrics/situation need a
>>little sadness. KK can not express little sadness. His voice emphasizes on
Although KK did convey a lot of emotion in his song, sometimes, IMHO, it wasn't
delicate enough because of the very quality of his voice which Pradeep and the
other KKKlaners like. For instance in the song "Teri duniya se hoke majboor
chala...", KK sings:
"KHush rahe tu hai jahan, le ja duaae meri
Teri raahon se juda, ho gaee raahen mere..."
It seems as if he's thrusting his dua down his jaaneman's throat. It's almost
like a command.... here's my dua, you better take it! :-) That "nazakat" is
missing which is required in these sentimental songs. This is where Rafi
excelled. Take that wonderful song from Ram aur Sham:
"Aaj ki raat mere dil ki salami lele, dil ki salami lele....."
The sincerity and emotion can be felt in his voice which no other singer could
equal.
>>I would conclude this by comparing this with Olympics Gymnastics rather than
>>tennis. Rafi gets the AllRound Gold (Obviously) and Individual Golds more >>than anyone else in Indian Filmi singers.
Nice analogy.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)... and a RAFIan.
>>-harish
*******************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Kehdo in hasraton se kahin aur ja basen
Itni jagah kahaan hai dil-e-daaGHdaar me
Bahadur Shah Zafar in "Lagta nahin hai dil mera ujRe dayaar me..." (Lal Quila)
*******************************************************************************
rebala gopinath
Thanks Sami for a well-reasoned response.
>>is probably the most underrated. Haven't seen a single fan of his singing
>>except yours truly.
>
<Analysis of CR snipped>
>marvel, but it loses a lot of of it's lustre in his voice. Perhaps that is what
>separates a great singer from a good one. Take the other other lori form
I pretty much agree with your comments. CR was good if not great and I
like his songs sp. his duets and particularly those with Lata. Those
are some of those few songs Lata seems to be enjoying herself and not
just doing her job. eg. Mombasa from Sargam.
>
>>The one aspect of the KK-Rafi war I am not enamoured with is the total
>>disregard/indifference to the other great singers.
>
>By definition, the RAFI/kk wars are bet. Rafi and KK... there's no room for
>other singers :-) Anyway, those were just friendly wars, not serious
>discussions.
What I meant was that when you are talking of classical how could you
leave out Manna Dey (though I feel Manna Dey was a specialist in many
more areas. In fact he seems to be called upon by MD's
only for "specialist" songs), talking of Ghazals how could you leave
out Talat, for soulful melodies Hemant and Talat etc.
>
>>This is particularly
>>bad when the Klan people and Rafians are in a conciliatory mood. "Agreed
>>KK/Rafi was also good but Rafi/KK was the greatest" etc. => "Others just don't
>>exist"!!
>
>:-) That's a good point. But u have to agree that Rafi and KK were the two
>most successful and versatile singers. So, one has much more ammo for these
>singers as compared to others. Moreover, there's not much fun in proving
>Rafi/KK > Mukesh etc. :-) Perhaps it's because a strong lobby for these singers
>doesn't exist on RMIM.
I surely would hate to pull in the rest of the greats into A > B kind
of wars. But when you say Rafi was the greatest Ghazal/classical singer
and KK the best singer of sentimental songs you are certainly enroaching
into other singers' territories and the war is pulling in other singers.
It might be better to keep it between Rafi and KK and not talk in absolute.
>
>>There is a large category of songs in which both KK and Rafi (both great
>>singers) wouldn't be the best choice. eg. Choice of SDB (who IMHO had a great
>>choice of singers both male and female depending on the song. Talk about
>>effective use of resources!) reflects the specific talents/specialities
>>of these singers. Agreed the other greats were not so versatile but more
>>of specialists.
>
>>Take one such category - Sad (dard-bhara) songs. Nobody can come close
>>to Mukesh.
>
>Whoa! Just because Mukesh was good exclusively at sad songs, doesn't imply that
>he was the best. Moreover, SDB, whom you praise in the above passage didn't
>really think highly of Mukesh...
I disagree here. Mukesh was endowed with a voice that brought out melancholy.
What took effort for Rafi/KK came naturally to Mukesh. I don't know what
SDB thought of Mukesh but there could be two other reasons. First of all
SDB had more Dev Anand type films than Bimal Roy type of films. Secondly
Mukesh had competetion with SDB himself and thirdly I picked a wrong
example :-)
>
>>KK's "Dukhi man mere" is good but hardly dukhi and Rafi starts
Knew you wouldn't disagree here :-)
>>crying when he trying to convey genuine pathos
>
>Whoa #2!! :-) Mukesh starts crying even when he is NOT trying to convey
>genuine pathos! (Just a flame bait from a RAFIan :-) ) There are plenty of
>examples of Rafi conveying pathos in very subtle terms.
I am a big fan of Rafi but I draw the line when it comes to sad songs
(and high-note classicals - about those some other time). I would
categorize most sad songs of Rafi in two categories - the crying ones
and the angry (or shouting ones). I am not talking of those Rafi songs
where pathos is conveyed by the lyrics and not by his voice.
>
>>(if he doesn't go for the
>>high-pitch a-la Mahendra Kapoor).
>
>Whoa #3! Please... Rafi never went a la mKaps.
IMHO many angry + sad songs (also most of the junk songs with SJ in mid and
late 60's) fall in the shouting category. eg. Yeh duniya agar from Pyaasa
(fortunately HMV chops of the ending that goes "jala do .... mita do ..")
or the highly acclaimed "O duniya ke rakhwale". Both songs give me a
headache.
>
>>Mukesh with his natural ability is the
>>man for the occasion. Who else could soothe your wounded heart better!!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>TALAT!!
>
Agreed. I can personally testify to the soothing properties of these two
singers :-)
>
>>One sentiment often expressed in RMIM is "A nice song but would have been
>>better if Rafi/KK/Lata/Asha had sung it". The best period for Hindi music
>>(50's and early 60's) was when a wide variety of talented singers enriched
>>the songs with their unique talents. It brought out a greater variety and
>>the best out of the MD's. OTOH look at the late 60's - Lata, Rafi and Asha
>>had pretty much the monopoly as the other greats had faded away and what
>>a fall there was in the quality of Hindi music.
>
>On the flip side, why did Mukesh, Talat, etc. fade away before Lata, Rafi and
>Asha ?
There could be quite a few explanations. The MD's who could have effectively
used their talents also faded away or had become bad, the films allowed for
more common fare and the possibilities for the "specialists" were fewer
and the MD's who took over were worthless. IMVHO.
More later,
Kalyan
Syed Rizwan
>or KK. There is no Kishore Kumar song that I think Rafi can do a better
>:-) job, take for example. these songs
And likewise for All Rafi Songs. I don't think I would like a single
one of them, if it was done by Kishore Kumar. I mean can you imagine
Kishore trying to sing, "O haseena zulfo.n wali jaane jahaaa.n", or
'Gulaabi Aankhe.n', or 'Yeah jo chilmun hay', etc.. I'm fairly
certain you get the picture too. But anyway, this is NOT due to the
difference in skill level between the two, but just that you have
heard that song all your life in one person's voice, and it wouldn't
sound 'normal' in someone elses. Hence, the general disdain witnessed
towards all the re-mix cassettes coming out nowadays....
Rizwan
Anil Verma
AV
Pradeep Dubey
Yes ... if I was asked to pick just one quality of KK's singing
which puts him apart from the rest, I will say: it was his
ability to "pour life" into an otherwise ordinary song.
This ability of course can be very explicitly felt in all
those so-called 'crazy' songs but it also rules in a more subtle
manner many of his sentimental classics. By the way, if you
want to get a first-hand feel for how comfortable KK felt
with light-crazy songs and how uncomfortable Rafi felt
at the same time: please listen to the following Rafi-KK
duet and you will get the idea: chal shuroo ho ja, laga thappaD ...
But then Rafians will claim "we all agree these crazy songs light or
heavy were all part of 'ilaaka' KK owned so it's unfair to
compare KK and Rafi in this 'ilaaka'".
OK: so now take the opposite scenario and put KK in his
most vulnerable or weak 'ilaaka', namely (semi)classical-type songs,
together with not-Rafi-but-with-the-captain-of-classical-singers-team:
Manna Dey, as was done in: ek chatur naar in PaDosan by RDB.
Here is what MannaDey had to say (I have posted this before as I recall
from my last India trip when DD had a special on MD):
"I earlier felt very uncomfortable with the idea of losing to Kishore
in a classical song competetion but reluctantly agreed to it.
I prepared very thoroughly for this song as it wasn't an easy
song. And then on the recording day I see Kishore walking
in with all kinds of complaints and looking nervous at joining
me in this classical ... but to my utter surprise this man
with no practice and no training in such songs (like me)
sang it with ultimate confidence ... When it was over I had no
regrets in losing to him"
Of course, I have phrased it hear to the best of my recollection
and feel free to correct it. But a tribute such as this IMHO is
worth a thousands of RMIM-fights.
I just finished listening to "... tune hameN kya diya re zindagi...".
(film: zindagi, MD: SDB). Anyone who thinks KK didn't put as much emotion
in sad songs as Rafi or anyone else on this planet, should listen
to this song and I can almost bet that if you are listening to it for
the first time, you will be unable to control your urge to rewind your
tape.
Pradeep
P.S. And BTW while making claims regarding how comfortable Rafi was
with ups and downs in songs, please remember that (as per Raju Bhartan's
book) the singer who had problems with Salil classic: tasweer teri dil mein ...
was none other than Rafi!
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
>
>SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED <sm...@Lehigh.EDU> writes in
> article <4l9dql$1o...@fidoii.cc.lehigh.edu>:
>
>> In article <4l6tre$b...@umbc9.umbc.edu>, gre...@umbc.edu (rebala gopinath) writes:
>>
>> Although I do like some of CR's songs, I wouldn't really call myself a fan of
>> CR the singer. In fact, many a time I have really wished that CR had made
>> either Rafi or Talat sing some of his own songs. IMHO, there was something
>> missing in his voice that would prevent him from conveying the mood of the
>
I'm trying to point out that CR lacked that certain quality which separates good
singers from great ones. I really wonder if anyone but himself would have
chosen him over other singers of that era to sing serious songs as they chose
Hemant Kumar, who was another singing MD. It's quite possible that CR didn't
want to sing for others, but I really doubt if he would have been approached
by any of the top MD's of that time.
>I understand that some his songs (CRs)
>were really effective in his voice.... 'Daane Daane Pe Likha Hai' and '... Mera
>Salaam Leke Ud Ja, Bichhde Hue Saajan Ka Salaam Leke Ud Ja' and 'Fir Wohi Sham'
>are few of them.
Yes, there are examples where he has done better than in other songs, but he
could not pour emotions and express feeling in a manner similar to Mukesh,
Talat, Rafi etc.
>> Whoa! Just because Mukesh was good exclusively at sad songs, doesn't
>> imply that he was the best.
>
>Going by this standard and extending it to classical arena, you will easily
>conclude that Ust. Bade Gulam Ali Khan was not great as he did give so many
>good renditions for Drupad-Dhamar as for Thumaris !!! :-)
No, I will not conclude that. One good reason for that being that I don't listen
to Bade Ghulam Ali Khan Sahab at all and don't even know the difference between
Drupad-Dhamar and Thumari. Bhai Sahab apni dauR sirf filmi gaano tak hai.
I have problems even pronouncing "Drupad-Dhamar" leave alone passing judgement
reg. it :-)
Waise, should your sentence read "... as he did NOT give so many..." or is it
the way you wrote it "....as he did give so many...." I can't follow your logic
here.
Since you have missed my point, let me rephrase it. I was not setting any
standards. I didn't say that since Mukesh was good exclusively at sad songs, he
was a bad singer. Kindly read my original comment again.
>> Moreover, SDB, whom you praise in the above passage didn't really think
>> highly of Mukesh...
>>
>
>Can you post those comments please .... Thank you
I recall reading somewhere that SDB said:
"Mukesh insaan bahut achha hai, lekin baRa besura hai..." These may not be
Burman Dada's exact words but the error bars on this are preety small.
Moreover, Mukesh has very few songs with SDB although the ones he has sung for
him are quite good.
>> >KK's "Dukhi man mere" is good but hardly dukhi and Rafi starts
>> >crying when he trying to convey genuine pathos
>>
>> Whoa #2!! :-) Mukesh starts crying even when he is NOT trying to convey
>> genuine pathos! (Just a flame bait from a RAFIan :-) ) There are plenty of
>> examples of Rafi conveying pathos in very subtle terms.
>>
>
>Is that because we have stereo-typed singers to such a degree that, we can't >see difference of mood in a song ??
First of all that was a flame bait and wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
Anyway, now that you have taken it seriously, let me add that it does have
more than a few millimoles of truth in it. Quite often, Mukesh couldn't capture
happy moods in his songs due to the inherent quality of his voice. Here are some
examples:
"Kya khoob lagti ho, baRi sundar dikhti ho..."
"Dheere dheere bol koi sun na le...."
"Barkha rani, zara jamke barso..."
"Naen tumhaare mazedaar O janaab-e-aali.."
>If what you claim is true, than songs of
>Andaaz (1949), would have died long ago!
That's the power of Naushad's magic !! :-)
>None of them carry any bit of sadness.
"kisiko dil ka dard mila hai, kiso ko man ka meet
Ho gaao KHushi ke geet..."
I think the above carries more than a bit of sadness.
>And then, there are many more examples too. And for Rafi; yes he conveys those
>pathos in subtle terms by sobbing in 'Babul Ki Duvayen Leti Ja' since at the >end after all that effort he finds, may be he could pull imotions by that! :-)
To prove a theory wrong, one example is sufficient. However, here you are trying
to prove something right based on a single example. I'm sure you have access
to more Rafi songs than the above from Neelkamal. May I recommend the
following:
"Man re tu kaahe na dheer dhare..."
"Main ye sochkar uske dar se uTHa thha..."
"Kabhi KHud pe kabhi haalaat pe rona aaya..."
>> While Rafi and KK have a wide variety of songs that are good, Mukesh doesn't.
>>
>
>I think this is not a correct assessment... It's true to a large extent (not
>fully) in "variety" part; but is entirely wrong in "good" part. Not only for
>Mukesh but also for Hemant and Talat and Manna and others.
I seem to be missing your point here. I said that Rafi and KK have a lot of
good songs in a wide range (sad, happy, senti, romantic etc.) while Mukesh
doesn't. Do you agree with this ?
>I can bet, there is an error here! Rafi was at his lowest in 70s. And that time
>at least Mukesh was still pretty strong. How many songs can you recall from >1970 to 1980 that were sung by Rafi ? I am sure it will be very few.
>So Mukesh did not fade away completely.
Yes Mukesh didn't fade away completely, but I don't think he sang more than
Rafi. After he has sung only 900 odd songs over his entire career. Moreover,
we were talking about the late 60's and not the 70-80 decade.
>Yes Talat did. But than Geeta Roy and even Nurjahan
>in Pakistan faded away too. Does that mean you will place them in list of
>*just* good singers ?
PLEASE read my comments before passing judgement. I was responding to Kalyan's
statement claiming that there was a decline in the std. of music in the late
60's because some of the top singers had faded away. I DID NOT say that
Mukesh was a "*just* good singer" as you allege. But yes, I do maintain that
he wasn't so good as Rafi or KK, and if I have to choose bet. Rafi and KK, I'll
pick Rafi. That is my choice.
>time back, there is no place for other than Rafi,KK,Lata,Asha,Naushad and other
>such big ones. And I don't find that surprising as there are only two reasons
>for such being a case:
> o Lack of interest (You can't do much about that)
> o Lack of awareness (You can't do any thing here either)
Has it ever occurred to you that people may not like your fav. singers despite
the "awareness" ?? I agree that discussions on RMIM mostly revolve around
Rafi/KK/Lata/Asha etc. but couldn't it also be because people genuinely like
them ? Afterall, nobody is stopping people from discussing other singers or
MDs. It might even be due to these singers' share of all the film songs.
>Durrani etc. How many of us know there was a time in 40s when >producer/directors used to ask for either of Durani of Khan Mastana for
> playback ?
Perhaps those of us who know such facts should take the initiative and post
them on the net the way Surjit does in his wonderful "A Year in films" series.
It is not true that there is no place for singers such as G.M.Durrani, Khan
Mastana etc. The place is certainly there. The initiative to post isn't.
>> Bahadur Shah Zafar in "Lagta nahin hai dil mera ujRe dayaar me..." (Lal >>Quila)
>>
>
>On sentiments, I would like to recommend you to listen to Habib Wali Mohammad
>singing above gem of Zafar. You will realise how much better he has sung
>compared to Rafi. In fact I often find Rafi's gazal singing worse, as he sounds
>as if he was singing a bhajan! (This is particularly true for his private ones
>and not in the films).
My defense of Rafi is purely limited to films. I never claimed that he was the
best singer outside the film industry.
BTW, have you guys noticed a trend here:
When we talk about Rafi's semi-classical songs, people point out classical
giants such as Bhimsen Joshi etc. When Rafi's GHazals are mentioned, Habib
Wali Mohammed is cited. When his devotional songs are mentioned, another
non-filmi singer is compared.... a person who can be compared with so many
greats has to have a SOLID range! And mind you none of these non-film
personalities would've survived in the film industry. That is where the
greatness of Rafi lies. He was the most versatile singer. You could depend on
him to go from "Madhuban me radhika naache re..." to "Sar jo tera chakraae..."
from "Kabhi KHud pe kabhi haalat pe rona aaya..." to "Ye chand sa roshan
chehra...." and from "Na to kaarwaan ki talaash hai..." to "Man tadapat Hari
darshan ko aaj..." and from "Kar chale hum fida jaan-o-tan saathio..." to
"Jungal me mor naacha kisine na dekha...". And he was not merely a jack of
all trades. He excelled in each and every trade within the realm of filmdom.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... and a RAFIan
>Snehal
PS: Pradeep yaar, will the KKKlan ever go beyond "Paayalwaali dekhna..." and
"Mere naina saawan bhaadon..." as examples for KK's so-called classical
prowess ? Dono records kuchh zyaada hi ghas chuke hain :-)
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Before I begin my outburst, I just want to tell all you KKKlaners that I
appreciate Kishore Kumar VERY VERY VERY much, both as a singer ansd as
an actor (he definitely has a superb voice!@). The fact that I like
Rafi better than the others doesn't mean that I don't like listening to
Kishore Kumar. HOWEVER...
>
>This ability of course can be very explicitly felt in all
>those so-called 'crazy' songs but it also rules in a more subtle
>manner many of his sentimental classics. By the way, if you
>want to get a first-hand feel for how comfortable KK felt
>with light-crazy songs and how uncomfortable Rafi felt
>at the same time: please listen to the following Rafi-KK
>duet and you will get the idea: chal shuroo ho ja, laga thappaD ...
So ONE song defines Rafi's comfort level? What a crock...This song is
from Humjoli, in the late 60's/early seventies...I think
that this is indicative of the degradation in Rafi's VOICE in general,
not his discomfort with light songs...I think that in the seventies,
Rafi just didn't sound as good, particularly mid to late seventies.
Kishore DEFINITELY sounded better in these years, which I would consider
his PRIME. Rafi's heyday was decidedly the fifties and sixties (though
he did have a few hits in the seventies and 1980), and to tell me that
KK is better because he did better in the 70's when both were singing is
UTTER NONSENSE. Ek daur Rafi ka, ek daur Kishore ka (and I like Rafi's
daur, especially where the compositions, sung in Rafi's voice are concerned).
>
>But then Rafians will claim "we all agree these crazy songs light or
>heavy were all part of 'ilaaka' KK owned so it's unfair to
>compare KK and Rafi in this 'ilaaka'".
No - I will NOT agree. I don't think EITHER of them won over the other
in this category - KK of course was master-yodeler, and his head was
messed up to begin with, which definitely manifested itself in his songs
in a good way of course. But Rafi was no less the clown, as far as
singing in weird voices from time to time and the like are concerned.
Examples (these are of course from the fifties/sixties, so don't even
start with your "KK was better in the seventies when both of them sang"
line):
Jangal men mor naacha
Yeh duniya gol hai
All line clear
Aai aai ya sukoo sukoo
Mera Yaar Bana hai dulha (esp. the old man part at the end...)
many more...in summary, he was by NO means strait-laced or uptight as a
singer
>most vulnerable or weak 'ilaaka', namely (semi)classical-type songs,
>together with not-Rafi-but-with-the-captain-of-classical-singers-team:
>Manna Dey, as was done in: ek chatur naar in PaDosan by RDB.
>Here is what MannaDey had to say (I have posted this before as I recall
>from my last India trip when DD had a special on MD):
>
>"I earlier felt very uncomfortable with the idea of losing to Kishore
>in a classical song competetion but reluctantly agreed to it.
>I prepared very thoroughly for this song as it wasn't an easy
>song. And then on the recording day I see Kishore walking
>in with all kinds of complaints and looking nervous at joining
>me in this classical ... but to my utter surprise this man
>with no practice and no training in such songs (like me)
>sang it with ultimate confidence ... When it was over I had no
>regrets in losing to him"
>
This is a JOKE - this is the same Manna Dey who said that just because a
song had some sargam or alaap in it, doesn't make it classical (I have
met Manna Dey in person AND read his interview). Ek Chatur Naar is
HARDLY classical. Manna Dey's part ONLY has a few jhalaks, but Kishore's
doesn't have a TRACE of classical in it (except for the fact that the
tabla player is playing teentaal behind him). This is not to say tha
Kishore did not do a fantastic job with his part of the song, but that>
it did not require ANY classically related technique or skill - in fact,
ANY joker can sing his part, as far as the NOTES go (to inject it with
VERVE is another thing, but don't go trying to make anything of
Kishore's classical prowess based on this, of all songs).
>P.S. And BTW while making claims regarding how comfortable Rafi was
>with ups and downs in songs, please remember that (as per Raju Bhartan's
>book) the singer who had problems with Salil classic: tasweer teri dil mein ...
>was none other than Rafi!
Response: 1. Kishore Kumar would not have done any better with this
song.
2. Yes, the "tarz" is tricky, all the nakkal Rafi-Lata's have an even
tougher time with it.
3. Though Rafi's negotiation has been smoother than in this song, the
fault is entirely Salil Choudhury's (ooooh! sacrilege!!) - why do I say
that? Well, because, while Lata's negotiation of the notes is better
than Rafi's, it still DOESN'T sound good - there are simply too many
notes, in too high a register, at too high a speed - between Rafi, Lata
and the dholak player, they sound like they're fallin down a flight of
stairs. In fact, except for the mukhda, I don't like this song AT ALL -
there is a point at which a tune's complexity interferes with its
beauty. I feel that this song is a PERFECT example of such...
Sanjeev
P.S. Beware KKKlaners, more of my posts are to come :-)
.
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <1996042206...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net>, "Snehal B. Oza" <sne...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net> writes:
>Yes. All those MDs who have given less songs to Mukesh, have one thing to >accept,that all those few songs were/are good (and they do accept).
I guess so. Naushad, SDB, RDB, Madan Mohan would fall under this category.
>> "kisiko dil ka dard mila hai, kiso ko man ka meet
>> Ho gaao KHushi ke geet..."
>>
>> I think the above carries more than a bit of sadness.
>>
>
>I understand that he (Dilip Kumar) points about this sadness of RK while
> singing, otherwise song is in pleasant mood. Right ?
Is that so ? It's been a while since I watched this movie, but I think Nargis
is already engaged to RK and DK comes to know about it and is actually singing
about his own "haar" and RK's "jeet". A rule of thumb in such situations is
that the guy at the piano is the losing finalist :-)
>Yes, I do. Let me clarify my point. I agree that, Mukesh hasn't have *many* >good songs in all those categories. In other words, he *does* have good songs
> in different moods. (May be number is less).
I agree.
>Yes, Rafi has sung more number of songs than any other male singer in any given
>decade (except 40s and 70s.. 80s shouldn't be counted for him, correct ?).
I guess not 'cause he left us in July '80.
>Genrally No. First let me point out that I was *not* making a case for Mukesh,
>when I said above... Also, let me admit that by this question I am yorked :-)
:-) And here I was attempting a bouncer with a close-in fielder at forward
short leg :-)
>What is your point, acually ?
My point was that there might be RMIMers who are aware of the music of the 40's
but prefer Rafi/KK/Lata/Asha etc.
>So, you are pointing back to me :-)
Yes! :-) I did enjoy your post on Mukesh/Anil Biswas and hope to see some
more like that.
>Well, the fact is I don't find much time and secondly, I don't like a
>one-way traffic :-(
Valid points... post them only at your convenience....
>Well, on this I am wondering why not have a thread on non-film creations... in
>particular songs by Rafi, Talat, Hemant, Lata, Asha, Sehgal, Pankaj etc. Shd I
>be sure of your contribution in this field too? (At least for Rafi). And, let
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As I said earlier, my gamut is limited to film songs. Non-filmi tunes don't
interest me as much. I haven't heard many private songs and therefore will not
be able to comment.
>me clarify, this proposal is not to expose Rafi but to shed lights on this
>unexplored field, where lies many gems.
I'm sure there are other RMIMers who'll respond to your post...
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>Snehal
********************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Na jaane kaunsa pal maut ki amaanat ho
Har ek pal ki KHushi ko gale lagaake jio
Sahir in "Na munh chhupaake jio, aur na sar jhukaake jio..." (Humraaz)
********************************************************************************
Pradeep Dubey
KKKlan members have found addtional ammu to fight back.
It turns out KK was primarily only interested in pleasing
Lord Shankar and hence didn't show much interest in bhajans
meant to please others. Here are two such 'bhajans':
a) jai jai shiv shankar ...
b) bhole o bhole dil toota tu rootha mere yaar ko ....
More to follow, search goes on ...
Now Rafians ... this was one of the most difficult gods to
please and one couldn't just sing:
baDi der bhai shankar baba, teri raah take brijbala (or whatever) :-)
One needed higher order musical skills and since KK succeeded here,
pleasing the rest was like applying for MS after a PhD :-)
Pradeep
Pradeep Dubey
>
> PS: Pradeep yaar, will the KKKlan ever go beyond "Paayalwaali dekhna..." and
> "Mere naina saawan bhaadon..." as examples for KK's so-called classical
> prowess ? Dono records kuchh zyaada hi ghas chuke hain :-)
>
Ok Sami here are some more:
(This classical-raag stuff is really beyond my domain but
I am quite hopeful Rajanacharya (KKKlan founder) would
correct me if say something wrong ...). I am not sure
what all should be classifed as: classical. It's not
an easy task, as the complicated stuff can often be not
based on some one raag but a mixture. But this is what
knowledgeable RMIMers have told me here in the past:
Raag: jhinjhoti
koi hamadam na raha
Jhumroo
ghunghroo ki taraha bajata
chor machaye shor
mera jeevan kora kaagaz
Raag: khamaj
Kuch to log kahenge
Amar Prem
Raag: PahaDi
Is modse jaate hain
Aandhi
The foollowing seems complicated enough to be
classified as classical too:
mukhaDe pe gesu aa gaye
film: ??
MD: CR
Pradeep
rebala gopinath
I'm sure you missed a lot of Holi/Bhang songs by KK
where the name of some God or other crops up and technically you
can call them bhajans. Of the "bhajans" you listed I don't know of
anybody who listens to them at 5:30 AM but I heard them played by
labour unions on a prolonged strike :-)
In good humor,
- KK
kal...@sybase.com
ps: Pradeep, I thought you had taken up atheism for good :-)
In article <4lg6gj$1e...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>,
Kishor
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
> No - I will NOT agree. I don't think EITHER of them won over the other
> in this category - KK of course was master-yodeler, and his head was
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> messed up to begin with, which definitely manifested itself in his songs
> in a good way of course. But Rafi was no less the clown, as far as
> singing in weird voices from time to time and the like are concerned.
> Examples (these are of course from the fifties/sixties, so don't even
> start with your "KK was better in the seventies when both of them sang"
> line):
>
> Jangal men mor naacha
> Yeh duniya gol hai
> All line clear
> Aai aai ya sukoo sukoo
> Mera Yaar Bana hai dulha (esp. the old man part at the end...)
>
> many more...in summary, he was by NO means strait-laced or uptight as a
> singer
Very interesting when you call KK's head was messed up!. May be that was
a factor which made
him so creative and genuine :-). And he was not only a yodeler but much
more than that. I don't
think that was the only thing he did to achieve this kind of popularity.
It has to be more than
that. I would like to point out one more thing here. KK never used
anyone else to do his funny
parts of a song. He did it by himself. Rafi on the other hand has used
someone else to sing the
"yahoo" parts of chahe koi mujhe janglee kahe song and I am sure one
will find many other. Got
my point?. :-). Can some one show me songs of rafi which are similar to
"jhumroo", a song from
halfticket, where he swithches between two voices so effectively and
easily, " dhhere se jana",
"ek chatur naar" etc. etc. The final point is that KK never relied on
any other to do what he
has done. It was his and his effort only. Yes. He was extremely natural
in doing all this stuff.
There is not even shread of aartficial'ness in them. It was in his blood
and that is why evryone
else sounds so unnatural and effortmaking. He involved himself in the
song making process so much that in some instances MDs had to chang the
way in which they tuned a song. I remember one
such example. It was during the making of "roop tera mastana" that he
insisted that the song be
in present day form other than that thought by SDB. SDB wanted that to
be in some folk form. But
our guy wanted that in this style. The result is before you all!.
Remeber "khayke pan..". He
insisted that he will only sing while chewing a paan. Such things
brought life to the song and
he only had the courage to do such things.
> This is a JOKE - this is the same Manna Dey who said that just because a
> song had some sargam or alaap in it, doesn't make it classical (I have
> met Manna Dey in person AND read his interview). Ek Chatur Naar is
> HARDLY classical. Manna Dey's part ONLY has a few jhalaks, but Kishore's
> doesn't have a TRACE of classical in it (except for the fact that the
> tabla player is playing teentaal behind him). This is not to say tha
> Kishore did not do a fantastic job with his part of the song, but that>
> it did not require ANY classically related technique or skill - in fact,
> ANY joker can sing his part, as far as the NOTES go (to inject it with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ok. Ask Kumar shanus, Shabbir kumars and Mohd.Azizs to sing that song.
Let us see who does what
and how much?. It is very difficult and impossible to imitate his
genius. To say that anyone
could do the things that he did and with that ease and effectiveness in
very wrong. If one listens to the cassettes these guys bring out as a
tribute or whatever to KK are horrible.
> 3. Though Rafi's negotiation has been smoother than in this song, the
> fault is entirely Salil Choudhury's (ooooh! sacrilege!!) - why do I say
> that? Well, because, while Lata's negotiation of the notes is better
> than Rafi's, it still DOESN'T sound good - there are simply too many
> notes, in too high a register, at too high a speed - between Rafi, Lata
> and the dholak player, they sound like they're fallin down a flight of
> stairs. In fact, except for the mukhda, I don't like this song AT ALL -
> there is a point at which a tune's complexity interferes with its
> beauty. I feel that this song is a PERFECT example of such...
>
Even personally I don't like this song. But this composition was typical
of Salil C. Lata Mangeshkar herself tells that the tunes of SC had so
many variations, notes going up and down so
drastically and so fast. Infact this was the factor in her loving his
tunes so much. She said this made the job very challenging and that's
whay she loved his tunes. So one cannot say that
the fault is MD's (these kinds where his trademark). I agree that both
of them, alongwith that
dholak player, messed up the song. And I remeber one more song in which
Rafi's voice shakes too
much. "O sanam tere ho gaye hum, pyar mein tere kho gaye hum". Lata is
defintely better in this.
In this case tune is excellent but Rafi does not do a very good job.
> Sanjeev
>
> P.S. Beware KKKlaners, more of my posts are to come :-)
We are ready to receive them all :-).
bye and have fun,
Kishor.
Ketan
On 21 Apr 1996, Pradeep Dubey wrote:
> Good article Kishore!
> Yes ... if I was asked to pick just one quality of KK's singing
> which puts him apart from the rest, I will say: it was his
> ability to "pour life" into an otherwise ordinary song.
>
> This ability of course can be very explicitly felt in all
> those so-called 'crazy' songs but it also rules in a more subtle
> manner many of his sentimental classics. By the way, if you
> want to get a first-hand feel for how comfortable KK felt
> with light-crazy songs and how uncomfortable Rafi felt
> at the same time: please listen to the following Rafi-KK
> duet and you will get the idea: chal shuroo ho ja, laga thappaD ...
>
> But then Rafians will claim "we all agree these crazy songs light or
> heavy were all part of 'ilaaka' KK owned so it's unfair to
> compare KK and Rafi in this 'ilaaka'".
> OK: so now take the opposite scenario and put KK in his
> most vulnerable or weak 'ilaaka', namely (semi)classical-type songs,
> together with not-Rafi-but-with-the-captain-of-classical-singers-team:
> Manna Dey, as was done in: ek chatur naar in PaDosan by RDB.
> Here is what MannaDey had to say (I have posted this before as I recall
> from my last India trip when DD had a special on MD):
>
> "I earlier felt very uncomfortable with the idea of losing to Kishore
> in a classical song competetion but reluctantly agreed to it.
> I prepared very thoroughly for this song as it wasn't an easy
> song. And then on the recording day I see Kishore walking
> in with all kinds of complaints and looking nervous at joining
> me in this classical ... but to my utter surprise this man
> with no practice and no training in such songs (like me)
> sang it with ultimate confidence ... When it was over I had no
> regrets in losing to him"
Part of the greatness of KK lay in the fact and this is esp true with "Ek
chatur naar" is how much he seems to be enjoying himself. As someone
pointed out, Rafi seems all businesslike even in his fun songs,
exceptions Rafi for Shammi K, whereas KK always sounds like he is having
a great time.
>
> Of course, I have phrased it hear to the best of my recollection
> and feel free to correct it. But a tribute such as this IMHO is
> worth a thousands of RMIM-fights.
>
> I just finished listening to "... tune hameN kya diya re zindagi...".
> (film: zindagi, MD: SDB). Anyone who thinks KK didn't put as much emotion
> in sad songs as Rafi or anyone else on this planet, should listen
> to this song and I can almost bet that if you are listening to it for
> the first time, you will be unable to control your urge to rewind your
> tape.
One more KK-SDB song that coems to mind, is "Duniya O Duniya" from Naya
Zamana, in which KK accurately portrays the angry frustrated voice of the
spurned writer. It's awesome.
>
> Pradeep
> P.S. And BTW while making claims regarding how comfortable Rafi was
> with ups and downs in songs, please remember that (as per Raju Bhartan's
> book) the singer who had problems with Salil classic: tasweer teri dil mein ...
> was none other than Rafi!
>
Salil C himself said that for the song "Guzar jaaye din" from Annadata,
he wanted KK, since only he could do it the required justice. this is
from a Filmfar issue, which I have in my possesion, in an article which
was a tribute to SalilC, shortly after his death. This song uses a unique
scale progression, unheard of in Hindi film music till then, and SalilC
insisted on KK.
Harish Suvarna
Please give me time to get back into the war again. Totally tied with
crashing software.
Rafi Pankha,
Preeti Ranjan Panda
The annual misinformation campaign has begun! :-) The Rafians, after
suffering heavy losses, as usual, against the Klaners, have now begun
straying into the middle east, hoping to prove that the RafiDude was,
after all, better than *some* other singers. (Reminds one of the old jungle
saying - "Rafian tanks have only one gear: Reverse") And who should they
pick among that *some*? The greatest of the greats - Mukesh!
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED (sm...@Lehigh.EDU) wrote:
: >> Whoa! Just because Mukesh was good exclusively at sad songs, doesn't
: >> imply that he was the best.
[Re: Whoa]
This is about the farthest one can ever get from the truth! It might have
been true that Mukesh was the best at singing sad songs. The "exclusively"
part needs severe alteration. Which are Mukesh's most memorable songs?
Which are the ones that have truly survived the test of time? The sad
songs have their own place, but it is those innocence and fun-filled songs
unmatched in their charm, and fresh after decades, that well and truly
form a genre in themselves. It's those songs that Mukesh is most
remembered by today. Examples are aplenty: "kisiki muskuraahatoN pe ho
nisaar", "aasmaan pe hai khuda", "suhaana safar", "aawaara hoon" to pick a
few.
: >If what you claim is true, than songs of
: >Andaaz (1949), would have died long ago!
: That's the power of Naushad's magic !! :-)
Aayyayyo!! Not the same Naushad who composed hundreds of ultra-boring
you-heard-one-you-heard'em-all tunes? :-) That too, you bring him up in
a discussion involving *variety*?? :-)
Also, all those claims people make off and on, about Rafi/KK's greatness
being the ability to elevate a "mediocre" tune to levels of palatability
are just hallucinations of their fans. Everyone agrees, of course, that
they were versatile singers. However, most of the time, the MDs have the
singer (and all the special effects the singer is capable of) in mind for
the tunes they compose. I think it is unfair to say they had no clue about
the final product at the time they composed the tune, or that RafiDude,
like Superman, materialized out of nowhere and rescued a collapsing tune.
The following question of mine is unrelated to this thread, but this is
probably the right time to bring it up. It stems from my ignorance of
scales, ranges, etc.
Why do people bring up that age-old weapon: "o duniya ke rakhwaale"
whenever they want to impress the point of RafiDude's vocal range? Doesn't
the song range over roughly two octaves? (or am I off by too much?)
Surely, that's no great challenge for any good singer! To me, the song
sounds difficult only because RafiDude starts off high. Was that the way it
was supposed to be sung or was it RafiDude's problem? If you lower the song
by one or two notes, it certainly seems far easier to sing.
As a comparison, Hemant Kumar's "raahi tu mat ruk jaana" is (almost) of
similar range, but I have never heard that song being called difficult in
terms of vocal range. Reason, to me, seems because Hemant sings it the
"normal" way (whatever that is). He goes easily to lower notes, while
RafiDude seldom does. Surely, it's RafiDude's own limitation? :-) "raahi tu
mat ruk jaana" is so effortless, while RafiDude creates such a tamaasha of
the whole deal in "duniya ke rakhwaale", screaming and screeching and
shrieking away to glory as if in mortal fear of being chased by Batman all
over the gulleyways of Gotham-nagar! I dare say he truly deserved all those
abuses hurled at him by the audience at the end of the song! (you know,
all those "maar isko", "paagal ho gaya"...whatever...) :-) :-) Poor Bharat
Bhushan, he had to suffer on screen because of this! :-)
[Please don't take these last 2 paras seriously - I'm merely expressing
my curiosity, not making any assertions.]
I think, the song "mohabbat zinda rahti hai" is also of similar range.
Which filmi songs are among the widest ranges ever? Which ones are examples
where RafiDude sings low?
Regards,
Preeti Ranjan
-------------------------------------------------------
--- Mukesh's voice is better than it sounds. ---
-------------------------------------------------------
S.Jagadish
Could Rafi yodel like KK ? NO. Could he impart a sense of loneliness like KK
did in "Badi Sooni Sooni" ? NO. Could he impart a sense of freedom and fun like
KK in "Mere Saamne Waali" ? NO !
--
S.Jagadish
mailto:SF91...@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG
Nanyang Technological University
Die hard Kamal Haasan visiri ... "Vaazhga Kamal, Vaazhga Kalai"
Mayajaal : http://www2.ntu.ac.sg:8000/~sf918168/mayajaal.html
"Puns maybe bad, but poetry is verse"
Sanjay Joshi
>my point?. :-). Can some one show me songs of rafi which are similar to
>"jhumroo", a song from
>halfticket, where he swithches between two voices so effectively and
>easily, " dhhere se jana",
>"ek chatur naar" etc. etc. The final point is that KK never relied on
>any other to do what he
>has done. It was his and his effort only. Yes. He was extremely natural
>in doing all this stuff.
>There is not even shread of aartficial'ness in them. It was in his blood
>and that is why evryone
>else sounds so unnatural and effortmaking. He involved himself in the
>song making process so much that in some instances MDs had to chang the
>way in which they tuned a song. I remember one
>such example. It was during the making of "roop tera mastana" that he
>insisted that the song be
>in present day form other than that thought by SDB. SDB wanted that to
>be in some folk form. But
>our guy wanted that in this style. The result is before you all!.
Thats right. Amit Kumar also said this in a programme on Kishore Kumar.
KISHORE KUMAR IS THE GRRRRRREATEST!!!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjay S.Joshi 401, Stasney Street, 510
Graduate Student College Station
Dept. of Electrical Engineering TX 77840
Texas A&M University Tel: (409)-846-8671
College Station email: jo...@eesun1.tamu.edu
TX 77840 http://ee.tamu.edu/~joshi/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjay Joshi
>Wy de hell shud the comparison be on basis of ability to sing classical songs ?
>Could Rafi yodel like KK ? NO. Could he impart a sense of loneliness like KK
>did in "Badi Sooni Sooni" ? NO. Could he impart a sense of freedom and fun like
>KK in "Mere Saamne Waali" ? NO !
>
Three strikes and he is out!!!!
Just joking Rafiians... I personally like KK, but Rafi is IMO a very great
singer too!!!
Sreenivas Paruchuri
: Manna, Hemant, Mukesh, Chitalkar etc. If it comes to branding oneself,
: though I abhor the practice, I would call myself chitalkaran :-) CR
: is probably the most underrated. Haven't seen a single fan of his singing
: except yours truly.
Oh! You are not alone there! You can count with me! If you need BIG support
and want to tear apart those anti-Chitalkarans :-))) , pl. let me know.
I will get info. from VAK Ranga Rao and post on RMIM :-). Yes, he too is
a big fan of chitalkar and between 1957 and 1959 he left Madras and lived in
Bombay JUST to be near to "Anna".
I must admit that I am not a regular reader of RMIM. The reason is I am not
able to cope up with the large no. of postings on this group. I see that the
KK vs Rafi (friedly and as usual informative) war is rerolled for the
umpteenth time. Is the discussion/war limited to KK and Rafi - the singers
or versatile artists? If versatality is taken in to account (I think Mukesh
was often accused on RMIM for not being versatile and being able to sing only
particular type of songs.), then KK has a very few comparisions in the field;
actor (esp. those roles in Naukree - 1954, Miss Mala - 1954, Musafir - 1957),
singer, Prod., dir. MD (just to quote one master piece: Door Gagan Ki Chaon
Mein), lyricist (Jhumroo - 1961), ....
Also is n't it unique that in a film prod. and Mdirected by a singer did n't
have any songs, orchestration in it. I am talking about KK's "Dur wadi yon
kahin" ? The other MD who comes to my mind is late Ramesh Naidu (more
on him later) who made a film in 1986 (dubbed in to 14 lang.s).
Coming to classical songs who said that he could n't sing classical numbers
:-)? Well the song in Padosin may not be one, but what about "Muhabbat Karna
hain aasaan kisi par mar naa hain aasaan nibhana mushkil hain .." in
Chitalkar's Dalmekhala (1964) along with Manna Dey?
Let me use this oppurtunity and pose a few questions here.
KK's first available songs are:
marneki duaaye kyon maangoo
ye kaun aayaare (with Lata) -- both from jiddi (1948, Devanand)
But its often said that he sang one or other song with Madan Mohan before.
1. Has any one any info. on that!
2. Has any one seen his "chalti ka naam jindagee"? (its nothing but
a sequel to chalti ka naam gaaDi. Initial title was Champion. Songs
came in to market on L.P.)?
More later,
Regards,
Sreenivas
P. S. Oh, now pl. don't count me as KKKlan member.
E-Mail: sreeniqktpsp1.uni-paderborn.de
Pradeep Dubey
So new battle lines are being drawn in this war other nations (e.g. Mukesh-sthan)
have joined. Welcome aboard! BTW my most favorite male-male duet
is that KK-Mukesh duet: haal chaal thik thaak hai ... :-)
I will wait for Rafians response to what is so great about
hitting those high notes of "duniya ke rakhwale".
But even this he couldn't always do alone and often needed
a runner :-) For example, it doesn't look like he
screamed in his own voice for Shashi K in 'jab jab phool khile'.
I am talking about that ?? khudaaaaaaaa scream.
Sami:
You talk about lack of 'nazaakat' in Kishore's delivery in that song.
While I disagree, but if this was meant to score a point in Rafi's
favor, please tell me where did this 'nazaakat' vanish when
Rafi sang the following:
ab na bhanawaraa ban baag mein kaliyon ke peechhe ....
nainon ki khiDki ... main BAND kar li ... maine ek laDki pasand ...
I still cannot sleep at night when I recall how Rafi
says 'band' in the line above. He says it with such a
brute force as if : nainon ki khiDki nahin kisi railway
platform ke shauchaalaya ka darwaaja band ho raha ho
[not the windows of eyes but as if one were closing the
door of a restroom railway platform :-):-)]
Now finally to Sanjeev:
I have had high regard for your very informed posts in the past
but this last outburst took me by surprise! Anyway ...
Comparing KK-as-a-clown to Rafi-as-a-clown, you wrote:
>> But Rafi was no less the clown, as far as singing in weird voices
This statement perhaps even doesn't deserve a serious response
because quite likely this was typo. I am yet to find
a Rafian who would seriously say such a thing and I would
like to believe you are no different either! If you seriously
believe in this, please name one or two Rafi songs which come
even half-as-close as that Half-ticket song, dekha na haay re ...
or ... and then we shall talk further.
Talking about KK's part in PaDosan song, you wrote:
>> ANY joker can sing his part
Oh Yeah!! If KK was a joker, only one joker could sing his part :-)
Else: please tell me who else could EVER sing this song the
way KK did: A challenge of sort, especially to Rafi and all surviving
Rafi-clones!! The singing in this case doesn't just mean
hitting the notes but it's a question of putting even 10% of the life
KK put into it. I am sure a technical person like you very well
understands what is meant here!
Then you find faults in Salil's composition: tasveer teri ...
and go on to claim:
>> there are simply too many notes, in too high a register,
>> at too high a speed - between Rafi, Lata and the dholak player
>> they sound like they're fallin down ...
When I first read this, I said to myself:
hare raam ... hare raam ... Sanjeev insaanon ki is laDai
mein, baghwaan par kyon keechaD uchhaal rahe ho .... ghor kalyug :-)
Since Lata here has sung at every note that Rafi had too, please
tell me why she seems to have not only sung better but
verrrrrry effortlessly! Was she wearing some sort of helmet
to not get struck by those falling pieces of high-speed notes and
dholak pieces and poor Rafi was the only one struck!!
Sanjeev: I request you to get the bengali version of this
song which was a Lata solo and you would realize that if
this song needed a fixing: perhaps the only fixing needed was a
Pstat-fix, namely dropping the male singer!
And there was no other problem with the song. I will certainly
wait to read what other RMIMers (more technically informed
than me) have to say in this regard.
Waiting for next attack!!
Pradeep
Ramesh Hariharan
>Responding to the charge that KK couldn't sing devotional songs,
>KKKlan members have found addtional ammu to fight back.
>It turns out KK was primarily only interested in pleasing
>Lord Shankar and hence didn't show much interest in bhajans
>meant to please others. Here are two such 'bhajans':
Jeez.. how much sacredness can you expect from someone who got
married 4 times (or was it 5) .. I wouldn't be too proud defending
a man with such a hopeless track record when it comes to devotional
songs...Bagal mein churi bol mein ram ram (ooops ! shankar shankar)
Rafi was in his prime during the golden period and there were
lesser number of lousy songs in this era... (well ..that's why
the golden period gets it's name) .. KK ruled during and well
after the onset of the decay.. ie. the late 70's and early 80's.
Pradeep.. on this count you must admit that KK sang a larger # of
radhidhi songs than Rafi... even my friend Ketan admitted to this
during a recent phone call (now that's sad my dear KKKlaners).
>a) jai jai shiv shankar ...
Pradeep.. pl. come up with something atleast slightly better...
this one sounds like it is sung in a `sabji-mandi' .. not a temple. :-)
>More to follow, search goes on ...
Yeah .. you need to search HARD .. for us Rafians that's easy. Some
great Rafi devotional songs from films (there are many non-filmy ones
too !)
Duniya na bhaye mohe abh tho bula le
Oh Duniya ke rakhawale
Insaaf ka madir hai ye
>
>Now Rafians ... this was one of the most difficult gods to
>please and one couldn't just sing:
>
>baDi der bhai shankar baba, teri raah take brijbala (or whatever) :-)
>
Well how about Rafi's
Badi der bhayee (P-stats pl. It's probably a SJ composition)
>One needed higher order musical skills and since KK succeeded here,
>pleasing the rest was like applying for MS after a PhD :-)
:-) :-)
>
>Pradeep
Ramesh Hariharan
ps. Folks ..can I have the P-stats on this lovely Mukesh song:
Main dhoodtha haan hoon unko khwabon mein khayalon mein
Oh mujhko mil sake na ..... ke ujalon mein
Ramesh Hariharan
>Hi Everyone,
>
>Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
>
>> No - I will NOT agree. I don't think EITHER of them won over the other
>> in this category - KK of course was master-yodeler, and his head was
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>any other to do what he
>has done. It was his and his effort only.
>Ok. Ask Kumar shanus, Shabbir kumars and Mohd.Azizs to sing that song.
>Let us see who does what
>and how much?. It is very difficult and impossible to imitate his
>genius. To say that anyone
>could do the things that he did and with that ease and effectiveness in
>very wrong. If one listens to the cassettes these guys bring out as a
>tribute or whatever to KK are horrible.
Ok ... ok take in stride the fact that those comments came from
Sanjeev Ramabhadran, himself an extordinarily talented singer.
I do however agree with Sanjeev that KK's part in `Ek Chatur Naar'
is hardly classical.. it's kind of sad that the KKKlaners need
to resort to shady songs like this and `Cheel cheel chillake' from
Half Ticket.
And BTW mentioning Shanu's name in the midst of a sacred KK-Rafi
annual war is utter sacrilege... jeez ! You just made me commit a technical foul :-)
>> that? Well, because, while Lata's negotiation of the notes is better
>> than Rafi's, it still DOESN'T sound good - there are simply too many
>> notes, in too high a register, at too high a speed - between Rafi,
>> stairs. In fact, except for the mukhda, I don't like this song AT ALL
>> there is a point at which a tune's complexity interferes with its
>> beauty. I feel that this song is a PERFECT example of such...
>>
I totally disagree .. `Tasweer teri dil mein' is an exceptional song ..
and is vintage Salil.. complex but beautiful ! I don't care how hard
Rafi worked to get it right .. but the result is great.
>And I remeber one more song in which
>Rafi's voice shakes too
>much. "O sanam tere ho gaye hum, pyar mein tere kho gaye hum". Lata is
>defintely better in this.
>In this case tune is excellent but Rafi does not do a very good job.
Gimme a break will ya .. This is too simple a tune (Shankar-Jaikishan)
for Rafi to mess up. I think he sounds well in control !
>> Sanjeev
>Kishor.
^^^^^^
Oh ! that explains :-)
Ramesh Hariharan
Ramesh Hariharan
> The final point is that KK never relied on
>any other to do what he
>has done. It was his and his effort only.
Hmmm.. what about the song `Pag ghungaroo bhand meera naachi thee'
Was it Prakash Mehra who pitched him out of trouble :-)
Ramesh Hariharan
>Yes. All those MDs who have given less songs to Mukesh, have one thing >to accept,that all those few songs were/are good (and they =
do accept).
>Snehal
A classic example is: "Chal Akela chal akela" .. a terrific song with OPN (Is this his only song with OPN?). Mukesh brings out the p=
athos esp. in the antaras: "Tera koi saath na de" and "Hazaaron meel lambe raaste tujhko bulate"
YES ! .. Mukesh should be #2 after Rafi relegating the OTHER great singer from Khandwa to third place :-) :-)
Senthil K Kandasamy
In article <Pine.SV4.3.91.960422...@seminole.iag.net>, Ketan <ke...@seminole.iag.net> writes:
|>
|>
|> On 21 Apr 1996, Pradeep Dubey wrote:
[deleted]
|>
|> Part of the greatness of KK lay in the fact and this is esp true with "Ek
|> chatur naar" is how much he seems to be enjoying himself. As someone
|> pointed out, Rafi seems all businesslike even in his fun songs,
|> exceptions Rafi for Shammi K, whereas KK always sounds like he is having
|> a great time.
|>
|>
|> Ketan
|>
|> A Burman and a KK fan(atic)
|>
I was not planning to jump into the mayhem this time...until i read this line.
Rafi seems business like in his fun songs? I DONT THINK SO. In my opinion, Rafi
is the only singer who seems to be enjoying his singing, be it fun songs,
romantic or even sentimental songs(!). Have u ever listened to those songs sung
by Rafi for Johnny walker. Please do listen to them. Then comment about who
seems all businesslike.
In my opinion, KK doesnt take any of his songs seriously. Even his sentimental
songs have a mischevious tone added to them. And just because he yodels away to glory,
it is ceratinly not indicative of how much he enjoys those songs ( nor is
it indicative of his singing capabilities)
As Sanjeev pointed out in another article, any Joker could have sung the Chatur
naar song (hope i am not misquoting him here).
senthil
Senthil K Kandasamy
In article <1996Apr2...@gamma.ntu.ac.sg>, sf91...@gamma.ntu.ac.sg (S.Jagadish) writes:
|> Wy de hell shud the comparison be on basis of ability to sing classical songs ?
|> Could Rafi yodel like KK ?
Dont dare bring in the yodeling capabilities ...Johnny lever can yodel better
than KK (thanks to the battle two years back, i know this one :-). So by ur
argument, Lever is a better singer than KK.
Senthil
Harish Suvarna
Pradeep ,
I really admire your spirit of KK support. Even in this 'illakha' KK clan is
trying to carve some niche. All the above songs do not sound 'classical' to me
at all. 'Classical' maane 'shastriya sangeet' adhering to strict beats,
aarohanaas, avarohanaas, and raag sanchaar,vistaar. These songs being not
sounding
classical despite the underlying 'shastriya base' is perhaps a tribute to KK.
rather than saying that KK sang classicals too.
Songs like 'ek chatur naar' I consider as part of 'craziest' songs of KK rather
than semi-classical.
Same argument holds for devotional songs too.
The other argument I have seen in this group is that of going 'uuuuuppar'.
One posting I have seen is that normally these songs are part of historical
films. Not necessarily. A song tune in upper scale is needed for situations
where some message is there to many people. These songs are sung as background
songs to masses some times. Examples are 'patriotic','Prabhodhana (preaching
good)' songs
'mere desh premiyon aapas me prem karo desh premiyo'
'Insaan bano karo bhala insaan bano' (KK can not just sing this kind of song.
Mannadey can sing but he can not bring the melody of Rafi.)
'apni aazaadi.... sar kata sakte hai lekin sar jhuka sakte nahin,
'Ghar chale hum [fb]idaa he vatan saathiyo ab tumhare havaale vatan saathiyo'
Sometimes a person is fed up with god and screams loudly in anguish hoping that
god would listen
'yeh duniyaa ke rakh waale'
Lata has many such uuuuppar songs.
Hence the arguments that 'uuuuuppar scales' are not needed , they are rarely
used , are NULL and VOID in my view. I have got to go and find these in the
crashing s/w.
Pradeep, on the issue of 'sentimental songs', I have seen your anguish to my
earlier posting. I will come back to you later.
I think KK group needs some inspiration now.
Theek hai aaap ke liye ek mukhda
'.... Varnaa tere sar ki khasam aadmi my bura nahin
mere deeeeewane pan ki bhi davaa nahin...'
(truely KK was a master here)
-harish
ps: I see some postings where they speak of us trying to be stupid to award
rank 1, rank 2 etc to singers. WE ARE NOT AT ALL DOING THAT. It is just for
fun.
--
Syed Rizwan
>The final point is that KK never relied on
>any other to do what he
>has done. It was his and his effort only.
Hmm, I seem to remember some obscure singer named.. hmmm... now what
the heck was his name.. hmm.. Something like... Amitabh Bachan or
something.. *grin* Anyway, I seem to remember him having to bail
out Kishore in that immortal song from Sharabi, 'Jahaa.n chaar yaar
mil jaaye.n'. And I always thought Kishore "NEVER" relied on any other
to do what he has done. :) I hope you take Mr. Fleming's advice now,
and Never say Never, again.. :)
Rizwan
Syed Rizwan
|> Wy de hell shud the comparison be on basis of ability to sing classical songs ?
>|> Could Rafi yodel like KK ?
>Dont dare bring in the yodeling capabilities ...Johnny lever can yodel better
>than KK (thanks to the battle two years back, i know this one :-). So by ur
>argument, Lever is a better singer than KK.
And as I said before, None of these can compare to the yodeling done
by RD Burman, so I stand corrected, RD IS the Greatest singer of all time.
Please refer to my post from a few days back for substantiation.
Later
Rizwan
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>Wy de hell shud the comparison be on basis of ability to sing classical songs ?
>did in "Badi Sooni Sooni" ? NO. Could he impart a sense of freedom and fun like
>KK in "Mere Saamne Waali" ? NO !
>
I agree that Rafi couldn't yodel like KK...but as you say why should the
comparison be on classical songs, why the hell should it be on
yodelling? I love KK's yodelling in Jhumroo and similar songs, but he
definitely overplayed this card...in the much acclaimed "Tum Bin Jaaoon
Kahaan", his singing is very very good, but the yodelling does not
belong...it's supposed to be a more subdued song...(that too, why the
hell would you yodel for Bharat Bhushan)?
As for the loneliness and fun/freedom, that is TOTALLY your opinion,
though you brandish it about as the absolute truth - my answer to your
questions lies in songs like "Din Dhal Jaaye" and "Main Bombai Ka
Baabu".
One thing I am seeing about the KKKlan is that they tend to turn a deaf
ear to ANYTHING good Rafi might have possibly done. As for me, I respect
KK greatly and enjoy many of his songs, but I love Rafi for his style,
as well as the "taazgi" of his voice and his versatility.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
A die-hard RAFIan
P.S. Have Mr. Avachat and Mr. Ravindra decided to sit this round out?
Sreenivas Paruchuri
: pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote:
: >It turns out KK was primarily only interested in pleasing
: >Lord Shankar and hence didn't show much interest in bhajans
: Jeez.. how much sacredness can you expect from someone who got
: married 4 times (or was it 5) .. I wouldn't be too proud defending
: a man with such a hopeless track record when it comes to devotional
: songs...Bagal mein churi bol mein ram ram (ooops ! shankar shankar)
You may be speaking those above words in lighter vein. If thats the case
please ignore my message! But can we keep away from those personal matters
and only discuss about their artists' talents/performances. Just a request!
Harish Suvarna (sundu) wrote:
: at all. 'Classical' maane 'shastriya sangeet' adhering to strict beats,
: aarohanaas, avarohanaas, and raag sanchaar,vistaar. These songs being not
: sounding classical despite the underlying 'shastriya base' is perhaps
: a tribute to KK. rather than saying that KK sang classicals too.
In all the existing film songs lists (Hindi, Tamil, Telugu) its always said
that "Songs BASED on classical raaga-s" and not songs in classical ragas and
thats how it was always interpreted on RMIM to my knowledge. If one strictly
adheres to the rules, then there are very few "classical" songs in Indian
films, I think.
Regards,
Sreenivas
E-Mail: sre...@ktp.uni-paderborn.de
Ravi Krishna
: Well here's another voice of a KK supporter about these usual
: meaningless :-) complaints regarding KK.
: 1) You know KK can't sing a song like "Duniya ke Rakhwale" or
: "Madooban main radhika" or in other words he is incapable of
: singing classical/semi classical & devotional songs.
: Oh yeah! how do you know that. Did Kishore tell you about that,
: or did you listen to him trying to sing these songs :-).
KK never sang a classical song for the simple reason that had he attempted he
then uski gand phat jati.
I have one theory why KK is more liked. His songs are simple to sing. Most
of us are either bathroom singers or at best an OK singers. People prefer
to sing KK song because it is easy to sing. In college or in parties have
you ever seen anyone attempting to sing classical based songs of Maana Dey ,
Lata or Rafi. Nope. Because by doing that they will make a ass of themselves.
Most of the guys choose KK song which are pleasent to hear but does not
demand too much of vocal ability. However this does not mean that KK songs
can be sung by anyone. At least KK songs can be sung by normal guys like us.
There are some songs of Lata or Manna Dey or Rafi which only a professional
singers can sing.
That is the reason why KK is more liked.
Veena S Nayak
black and white movie; the actor was Kishore Kumar and the
playback singer was Rafi. It was a semi-classical song, which
probably accounts for this phenomenon. Unfortunately, I can
remember neither the name of the movie nor the song.
Veena.
Chetan Vinchhi
Alright, here's a question for Rafians and Klaners.
I was planning not to ask this for fear of strong reaction
on both sides, especially the over-zealous Klaners. But
since the topic of the singing abilities of KK is on the
forefront of your thoughts at this time, let me ask it.
No flames allowed !! Only answers.
Does anyone else (other than me) think that KK went
'besura' (for want of a better word) sometimes ? It seems
to me that once in a while, he started off a stanza or a
line with the *wrong* note and quickly adjusted it so that
*most* of his singing adhered to the tune but that one
fraction of a jarring second he was off key.
Waiting for your replies,
Chetan.
Kishor
Ramesh Hariharan wrote:
> And BTW mentioning Shanu's name in the midst of a sacred KK-Rafi
> annual war is utter sacrilege... jeez ! You just made me commit a technical foul :-)
>
>
Yes. You are right!. It's indeed a technical foul. But when Sanjeev
mentioned any FOOL could have sung that song, I had to mention this
guy's name :-).
I still believe there are certain kinds of songs only he could have
sung. This was one of them.
The point here is not just sing the song but sing that with same
effectiveness and control.
And the same applies to Rafi. There are certain kind of songs where he
was better suited. As it
happens with every singer, they tend to be more comfortable with one
style of singing which will
be natural to them. MDs pick these singers on this count. In this
process they get branded with that style of singing.
Some have more variety than others and are able to sing songs of
different kinds. In this way both these singers were versatile and could
negotiate many different kinds of songs. Both of these had strong points
and weak points or I can call them as LIMITATIONS. It's only natural. I
think at one point of time or the other we have enjoyed both of them for
what they were good at. So, it is best to continue in that way. By
comparing these two moghuls of the singing world we are being less
appreciative of their real contribution and insulting their talents.
When we hear contemporeries of MdR and KK appreciating we get the idea
of how big they were. Their names are taken with respect(as far as their
art is concerned, let their private lives be of least concern to us.
It's only human). We should feel proud for this. If we consider their
effort and contriution it's phenominal. As mere playback singers these
two at times have taken the responsibility of the entire film on their
shoulders. Their voices have made films. That is why I feel both are
beyond any comparison. Even with themselves!.
bye,
Kishor.
>
> Ramesh Hariharan
Kishor
Syed Rizwan wrote:
>
> Hmm, I seem to remember some obscure singer named.. hmmm... now what
> the heck was his name.. hmm.. Something like... Amitabh Bachan or
> something.. *grin* Anyway, I seem to remember him having to bail
> out Kishore in that immortal song from Sharabi, 'Jahaa.n chaar yaar
> mil jaaye.n'. And I always thought Kishore "NEVER" relied on any other
> to do what he has done. :) I hope you take Mr. Fleming's advice now,
> and Never say Never, again.. :)
>
> Rizwan
I agree that he resorted to having the portion of "pag ghungaroo.." sung
by someone else. This
may be to do with his age at that time. He wasn't doing very well at
that time. In one interview
Asha Bhosle was telling about how his voice started shaking after some
illness. ( I do not remeber what it was. I think he had sustained a
heart attack). And he could not hold his breath
for a longer time and was feeling tired. But during his healthy days he
had done all such stuff!. So, this is more to do with his health than
his singing ability, I think.
bye and have fun ,
Kishor.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>Kishor <des...@bnr.ca> wrote:
>> The final point is that KK never relied on
>>any other to do what he
>>has done. It was his and his effort only.
>
>
>Hmmm.. what about the song `Pag ghungaroo bhand meera naachi thee'
>Was it Prakash Mehra who pitched him out of trouble :-)
>
YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!! If Rafi couldn't do a Yaahooo ( which would
probably tear up anyones throat after 20-some-odd takes in a studio,
including KK's), why did KK need someone else to do the fast sargam,
which btw is not anything too complicated?
KK's tongue was definitely glib enough to do it, but why did he rely on
someone else? We will never know...
Sanjeev
>
>
Harish Suvarna
Tan Man Dhan se agreed Desai saab.
Their voices not only made films but
to a great extent our lives too. Every generation has it's own legends.
We are all fortunate to belong to a generation where Kishore Dada, Rafi Saab,
Latag, Ashag and numerous others were present. We have seen them and heard them.
We cried if they cried, We laughed if they laughed. They have left us a great
khazaana which will fill our sorrow, our joy, our our everything.
Can someone list the birthdays and 'vardhanti' dates of KK, MdR, Maj MM,
SJ,Muk,SDB,RDB,ND,SNT,RC,HK,KLS and birthday of Latag.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>I will wait for Rafians response to what is so great about
>hitting those high notes of "duniya ke rakhwale".
>But even this he couldn't always do alone and often needed
>a runner :-) For example, it doesn't look like he
>screamed in his own voice for Shashi K in 'jab jab phool khile'.
>I am talking about that ?? khudaaaaaaaa scream.
Are you saying that KK could have done that scream? I doubt it... check
it out with a harmonium next time you get a chance; it is RIDICULOUSLY
high pitched, like NUSRAT FATEH ALI KHAN pitch...
>
>
>ab na bhanawaraa ban baag mein kaliyon ke peechhe ....
>nainon ki khiDki ... main BAND kar li ... maine ek laDki pasand ...
When is this song from? I'm guessing it's a seventies song, in which
case, I would believe the problems Rafi had with nazaakat - he
definitely LOST a lot of subtlety points with the coming of the
seventies...>
>I have had high regard for your very informed posts in the past
>but this last outburst took me by surprise! Anyway ...
>
>Comparing KK-as-a-clown to Rafi-as-a-clown, you wrote:
>>> But Rafi was no less the clown, as far as singing in weird voices
>
>This statement perhaps even doesn't deserve a serious response
>because quite likely this was typo. I am yet to find
>a Rafian who would seriously say such a thing and I would
>like to believe you are no different either! If you seriously
>believe in this, please name one or two Rafi songs which come
>even half-as-close as that Half-ticket song, dekha na haay re ...
>or ... and then we shall talk further.
>
Okay, I recant a little bit of that - but to say that Rafi was "all
business" his silly songs is also a crock...As for KK, of course I can't
take anything away from his silly songs - as other rmimers have
mentioned, his mentality definitely was conducive to such (WHATEVER the
reason, he definitely scored hugely in this category; but Rafi gets
honors anyway - I concede KK gets high honors in THIS CATEGORY)
>Talking about KK's part in PaDosan song, you wrote:
>>> ANY joker can sing his part
>
>Oh Yeah!! If KK was a joker, only one joker could sing his part :-)
>Else: please tell me who else could EVER sing this song the
>way KK did: A challenge of sort, especially to Rafi and all surviving
>Rafi-clones!! The singing in this case doesn't just mean
>hitting the notes but it's a question of putting even 10% of the life
>KK put into it. I am sure a technical person like you very well
>understands what is meant here!
Maybe you should have read the whole sentence before responding - my
remark was PURELY about the notes, and about the song's CLASSICAL
CONTENT - you chose to completely ignore that part of it. If you look
carefully, I DEFINITELY said that to inject the verver that KK put in it
was another story. This song was originally brought up in reference to
KK's classical abilities or lack thereof (here I am implying neither one
nor the other).
>
>Then you find faults in Salil's composition: tasveer teri ...
>and go on to claim:
>
>>> there are simply too many notes, in too high a register,
>>> at too high a speed - between Rafi, Lata and the dholak player
>>> they sound like they're fallin down ...
>
>When I first read this, I said to myself:
>
>
>Since Lata here has sung at every note that Rafi had too, please
>tell me why she seems to have not only sung better but
>verrrrrry effortlessly! Was she wearing some sort of helmet
>to not get struck by those falling pieces of high-speed notes and
>dholak pieces and poor Rafi was the only one struck!!
>Sanjeev: I request you to get the bengali version of this
>song which was a Lata solo and you would realize that if
>this song needed a fixing: perhaps the only fixing needed was a
>Pstat-fix, namely dropping the male singer!
>And there was no other problem with the song. I will certainly
>wait to read what other RMIMers (more technically informed
>than me) have to say in this regard.
>
NO...I will NOT get the Bengali version...just kidding, but I don't
think the Bengali version would lend any support - again, you only
half-read my post on this matter: I DID say that Lata's negotiation was
BETTER than Rafi's (that too, I didn't mean Rafi sang it badly).
However, I maintain that the song's antaras are unnecessarily
complicated (if you're wondering, I like most of Salil C's stuff). Lata
sings the notes properly, agreed, but I just don't find much beauty in
the tune even in her voice - the register is also too high; she definitely
ran into this problem a few times singing with Rafi...Remember that Lata
had portions to sing by herself which I didn't enjoy...
Lying in wait,
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>Sami wrote:
>
>>
>> PS: Pradeep yaar, will the KKKlan ever go beyond "Paayalwaali dekhna..." and
>> "Mere naina saawan bhaadon..." as examples for KK's so-called classical
>> prowess ? Dono records kuchh zyaada hi ghas chuke hain :-)
>>
>
I am not going to say that KK could not have sung classical songs.
However, of the examples given...
>(This classical-raag stuff is really beyond my domain but
>I am quite hopeful Rajanacharya (KKKlan founder) would
>correct me if say something wrong ...). I am not sure
>what all should be classifed as: classical. It's not
You're absolutely right. This is a tough one.
>Raag: jhinjhoti
>
>koi hamadam na raha
>Jhumroo
>
>ghunghroo ki taraha bajata
>chor machaye shor
>
>mera jeevan kora kaagaz
These are tunes which happen to fall into this raga for classification's
sake, and I
don't think require a real feel for Jhinjhoti to sing them.
"Tum Mujhe Yun Bhula Na Paaoge" from Pagla Kahin Ka, has in my opinion
much more Jhinjhoti than any of these three - of course, I don't think
that Rafi sang this one ALL that well, but my point is that the above songs,
while rendered exquisitely, do not serve to demonstrate any particular
CLASSICAL skill or knowledge on KK's part.
>
>Raag: khamaj
>Kuch to log kahenge
>Amar Prem
Same point - what separates KK's rendition from Kumar Sanu's rendition
is NOT a feel for Raga Khamaj.
>
>Raag: PahaDi
>Is modse jaate hain
>Aandhi
I've seen this one before and have been ABSOLUTELY PUZZLED by it. Rajan
or anyone, can you please explain how this song falls into PahaDi? I
can't find the PahaDi in it. What is your reference point?
Continuing on the classical thread, Manna Dey is, in most people's book,
(in my book too), the
best filmi classical singer, with Rafi a close second. While Manna Dey's
tayyari in terms of taans and the like is probably the best among the
more prolific male singers, Rafi's is also EXTREMELY good, especially
where fine runs and "murkis" are concerned. Where murkis are concerned,
I will say without any
second thought that not KK nor ANYONE else in the film industry could
TOUCH him. A few examples:
Kabhi Khud Pe Kabhi Haalaat Pe Rona Aaya - both in mukhda and stanzas
Ajhuna Aaye Baalama - second stanza, "Chand Ko Badaraa Garwaa Lagaaye,
Aur Bhi Mora Man Lalchaaye"
Rafi's firat on the word "man" is simply astonishing! KK couldn't touch
that, and I don't think Manna Dey could have done it better...
there are many, many more songs in which Rafi's firat leaves the
listener in awe...i
If you like Rafi, you like Rafi (I do!!). If you like KK, you like KK (
I do too!) But to try to build a case for KK as a classically motivated
singer is not gonna be easy.
"Mere Naina Saawan Bhaadon" is a very well-rendered song, based in
Shivaranjani. But do you know how many film songs are based in Shivaranjani?
They're a dime a dozen.
"Jaane Kahaan Gaye Woh Din" is too, and Mukesh gets so much credit for
that. Do you see anyone trying to pass him off as at all classically
motivated for that song?
More to come,
Sanjeev,
always the RAFIan
Anand Kuppuswamy
Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc
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Subject: Re: Kishore Vs. Rafi (Re: Favorite songs, special moments)
Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc
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Hi,
I thoroughly enjoyed the postings on Rafi and Kishore and the varied
opinions. Having had some training in music I was able to appreciate some
of the finer points. Being an ardent fan of music I thought I'd chip in
with a few of my thoughts.
First of all there is no comparisons between Rafi and Mukesh. Rafi wins
hands down! Mukesh has some really good songs to his credit but he really
sounds bland and plain most often. To top it all he sings at a low pitch most often and sounds deep throated. In fact IMO he's not even the 3rd best singer
during that era! Manna Dey would have been a real threat to Rafi or Kishore
with a bit more luck!
Now begins the real fun: Rafi & Kishore! Lets consider Kishore first:
Kishore had an absolutely fantastic voice and this is where he scored over
everybody else in the industry. But ... But ... there's more to singing
than just a great voice. Ofcourse a great voice helps but it is not the
one and only criteria to judge the calibre of a singer. In fact any voice
can be trained to become a good voice provided the training is started early
enough and, of course, there is some talent in the person.
Rafi had a very good and sweet voice himself but what set him apart was
his great voice control and modulating ability (due to his classical
background). If you sing along with some of Kishore's songs a good singer
would note that there are a lot of points in the song where Kishore could
have done a few vocal gymanstics (or a simple alaapana) and make it sound
even sweeter. Don't get me wrong: Kishore was a great singer with a
tremendous bandwidth and I am a fan of some of his songs, in fact most of
his songs BUT HE WAS NOT THE BEST! In terms of variety of songs sung and
VOICE CONTROL(a very important gauge factor) RAFI'S THE BOSS and by a mile!
Lets look into Rafi and the types of songs (with an eg.) he has sung:
qawwali: Pardah hai Pardah
semi-classical: Kuhoo Kuhoo bole Koyaliya, Madhuban Me Radhika
devotional: Man Tarpat Hari Darshan
romantic: Abhi na Jao Chod Kar
crazy& fun: Chahe Koi Mujhe Junglee Kahe
sad: Tere Bin Sune Nain Hamare
and many more...
If you gave some of these songs to Kishore all the Kishore followers would
shift loyalties and become Rafi bhakts instead.
regards
Anand
Anand Kuppuswamy
I respect the sincere efforts of the Mukesh fans but ... Gimmee a break!!
Rafi can beat Mukesh on any song and any type of song hands down!!
Mukesh can sing low pitched songs (with some comfort) but you can sense him
struggle at higher pitches ... listen to Rammaiya Vastavayya! IMO Rafi sounds
even better than Lata in this song!
We have to find some better competition for Rafi! ;-)
regards
Anand
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
In article <4lgn22$m...@drivel.ics.uci.edu>, ppa...@du.ics.uci.edu (Preeti Ranjan
Panda) writes:
>
>The annual misinformation campaign has begun! :-) The Rafians, after
>suffering heavy losses, as usual, against the Klaners, have now begun
Hmm, the desi election fever seems to have gripped the UCI campus too... the
Mukku bhai fans are trying to form a coalition with the KKKlan in order to
fight the RAFIans... and Dubey Sahab in a desperate move to strengthen the
coalition has even praised the forgettable KK-Mukesh duet "Haal chaal
theek-thaak hai..." Koi baat nahin... "Koi aae koi, RAFIans kisise kam nahin,
kam nahin..." :-)
>Which are Mukesh's most memorable songs?
>Examples are aplenty: "kisiki muskuraahatoN pe ho nisaar",
Legend has it that Kaifi Azmi was caught in two minds after listening to
Mukesh muskuraao, unable to decide whether the dude was trying to smile or cry.
After years of unsuccessful attempts at deciphering the mystery, a desperate
Kaifi decided to go public with his query"
"Tum itna jo muskura rahe ho
Kya GHam hai jisko chhupa rahe ho..." :-)
A fitting description for all those so-called light hearted/lively Mukesh
songs.
>Aayyayyo!! Not the same Naushad who composed hundreds of ultra-boring
>you-heard-one-you-heard'em-all tunes? :-) That too, you bring him up in
>a discussion involving *variety*?? :-)
Oooh, ye Lok Sabha elections me assembly seat ki campainging kyun ho rahi hai
? There'll be plenty of time for Naushad/Shanky-J, Sahir/Gulzar "wars" later.
>they were versatile singers. However, most of the time, the MDs have the
>singer (and all the special effects the singer is capable of) in mind for
>the tunes they compose. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Exactly! And that is the reason why they approched a particular singer just
900 odd times during his entire career.
>The following question of mine is unrelated to this thread, but this is
>probably the right time to bring it up. It stems from my ignorance of
>scales, ranges, etc.
>
>Why do people bring up that age-old weapon: "o duniya ke rakhwaale"
The answer is in the question itself. Because this song is exactly what you
described it to be: A WEAPON!! As Rajendra Krishan wud say "Murjha chuka hai
phir bhi ye dil phool hi to hai"... waise hi, age-old hua to kya, WEAPON hi to
hai!
>whenever they want to impress the point of RafiDude's vocal range? Doesn't
>the song range over roughly two octaves? (or am I off by too much?)
I leave it to the knowledgeable RAFIan Technical Director, Mr. Sanjeev
Ramabhadran to answer this.
>Surely, that's no great challenge for any good singer! To me, the song
>sounds difficult only because RafiDude starts off high. Was that the way it
>was supposed to be sung or was it RafiDude's problem?
Quote:
>most of the time, the MDs have the
>singer (and all the special effects the singer is capable of) in mind for
>the tunes they compose.
Unquote.
I'm sure the MD had ALL the special effects in mind before he asked Rafi to
sing this song. Yeah, I know the MD in this case was Naushad. But then, since
he composed "hundreds of you-heard-one-you-heard'em-all tunes", or in other
words, the same tune hundreds of times, he must've become quite an expert at
it.
>shrieking away to glory as if in mortal fear of being chased by Batman all
>over the gulleyways of Gotham-nagar! I dare say he truly deserved all those
I'll need to extract a passage from Sanjeev's post to describe what you
misconstrue as "shrieking". You see, it's the type of voice a singer has.
Sanjeev said that Rafi was a tenor while Kishore was a baritone. Although
Sanjeev didn't mention anything about Mukesh, I'll say that the closest
description would be a dialtone :-) Ekdum monotonous.. na upar ja sakta hai
aur na hi neeche... And when he attempts anything except sad songs, the mode
changes from touch tone to pulse and you get those vibrations :-)
>[Please don't take these last 2 paras seriously - I'm merely expressing
>my curiosity, not making any assertions.]
Statutory disclaimer repeated :-)
>I think, the song "mohabbat zinda rahti hai" is also of similar range.
Anil Biswas tried to make Mukesh sing those high notes in his first song..
rem. the "jalta hai, dil jalta hai..." ending ? Well, that was the first and
last time he or anyone else attempted that. It sure is true that "the MDs have
the singer (and all the special effects the singer is capable of) in mind for
the tunes they compose".
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... and a hard-core RAFIan.
>Preeti Ranjan
_______________________________________________________________________________
|
Sami Mohammed |
Emulsion Polymers Institute | I polymerize,
Dept. of Chemical Engineering | Therefore, I AM
Lehigh University |
_______________________________|_______________________________________________
Pradeep Dubey
|> Kishor <des...@bnr.ca> wrote:
|> >Hi Everyone,
|> >
|> >
|> >> No - I will NOT agree. I don't think EITHER of them won over the other
|> >> in this category - KK of course was master-yodeler, and his head was
|> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >any other to do what he
|> >has done. It was his and his effort only.
|>
|>
|>
|> >Let us see who does what
|> >and how much?. It is very difficult and impossible to imitate his
|> >genius. To say that anyone
|> >could do the things that he did and with that ease and effectiveness in
|> >very wrong. If one listens to the cassettes these guys bring out as a
|> >tribute or whatever to KK are horrible.
|>
|> Ok ... ok take in stride the fact that those comments came from
|> Sanjeev Ramabhadran, himself an extordinarily talented singer.
|> I do however agree with Sanjeev that KK's part in `Ek Chatur Naar'
|> is hardly classical.. it's kind of sad that the KKKlaners need
|> to resort to shady songs like this and `Cheel cheel chillake' from
|> Half Ticket.
|>
|> annual war is utter sacrilege... jeez ! You just made me commit a technical foul :-)
|>
|>
|> >> notes, in too high a register, at too high a speed - between Rafi,
|> >> there is a point at which a tune's complexity interferes with its
|> >> beauty. I feel that this song is a PERFECT example of such...
|> >>
|>
|> I totally disagree .. `Tasweer teri dil mein' is an exceptional song ..
|> and is vintage Salil.. complex but beautiful ! I don't care how hard
|> Rafi worked to get it right .. but the result is great.
Ramesh: now we all know Rafi Sahab did in fact work very hard
(a fact you may or may not care about). Still the million dollar
unanswered question remains: Did he still get it right???
Pradeep
Pradeep Dubey
is quite a bit more to come from Salil HQ regarding
the 'tasveer teri dil mein' charge. I have collected
more information in this regard than I ever hoped
from very 'informed' RMIM-gurus!! And I am hopeful
I will get there permission to post. KKKlan President
Dr. Rajan Parrikar is 'swamped' with work at job
but is expected to take charge soon.
The reason I love to dig deeper and deeper into this
song in this war context is because the strategy
is the following (oh no ... what a naive soldier I am
... giving away the strategy to the enemies :-):
My hypothesis is in singing crazy songs,
KK was flawless and unmatched during his peak
(meaning not the last few years of his career
when several health concerns had appeared).
RAFIans seem to have acknowleldged it.
Both are claimed to have superb ability to pour
'dard/pain/sentiment/emotion/whatever' into
their songs. This is not yet settled and
we are working on winning here :-)
The last category is that of 'technically
challenging' songs like:
'semi-classical/classical/simply-genius-composistion/etc'.
This is where RAFIans shout the loudest.
Why shouldn't they after all they sent their
man to years of schooling to learn all this stuff?
So it must hurt when their man flunks a paper
in this category. Then they blame the examinor
(Salil) for posing a difficult/un-answerable question etc.
Finally, though RAFIans do land up acknowledging
that our man is not the best here (Manna is better etc.).
Now look at KK here: He NEVER went to any of those
schools and never claimed to be the 'classical'
singer. But still I believe he often proved himself
many times even in this category without messing up!
So it's fun to discuss comptetion in this category
between a PhD and a-never-went-school-kid :-):-)
In closing I repeat what I said many posts back:
KK was unmatched by anyone in this world
in doing what he did best whereas Rafi was
beaten by one or the other in every category!!
Pradeep
P.S. Also IMHO we should no more be discussing
in this context songs from purely lyrics-content
(devotional/patriotic etc.) ...
Pradeep Dubey
Nice try Ravi! I don't quite know which college and parties you attended.
But all the college campuses and parties I am familiar with, there
are more (and certainly no less) Rafi-clones on stage than KK-clones!
If you need more proof: try listing here the names of KK-clones
in Bollywood and then for every one you list, I will give you 3 or 4
Rafi-clones!!
Pradeep
Pradeep Dubey
|> pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote:
|> >Sami wrote:
|> >
|> >>
|> >> PS: Pradeep yaar, will the KKKlan ever go beyond "Paayalwaali dekhna..." and
|> >> "Mere naina saawan bhaadon..." as examples for KK's so-called classical
|> >> prowess ? Dono records kuchh zyaada hi ghas chuke hain :-)
|> >>
|> >
|> >
|> >I am quite hopeful Rajanacharya (KKKlan founder) would
|> >correct me if say something wrong ...). I am not sure
|> >what all should be classifed as: classical. It's not
|> >based on some one raag but a mixture. But this is what
|> >knowledgeable RMIMers have told me here in the past:
|> >
|> >
|> >koi hamadam na raha
|> >Jhumroo
|> >
|> >ghunghroo ki taraha bajata
|> >chor machaye shor
|> >
|> >mera jeevan kora kaagaz
|> >
|> >Kuch to log kahenge
|> >Amar Prem
|> >
|> >Is modse jaate hain
|> >Aandhi
|> >
|> >classified as classical too:
|> >
|> >mukhaDe pe gesu aa gaye
|> >film: ??
|> >MD: CR
|> >
|> >Pradeep
|>
|>
|> Pradeep ,
|>
|> I really admire your spirit of KK support. Even in this 'illakha' KK clan is
|> trying to carve some niche. All the above songs do not sound 'classical' to me
|> aarohanaas, avarohanaas, and raag sanchaar,vistaar. These songs being not
|> sounding
|> classical despite the underlying 'shastriya base' is perhaps a tribute to KK.
|> rather than saying that KK sang classicals too.
If that's what you are looking for, may I suggest throw away all
your Rafi tapes and buy yourself few Pt. Jasraj tapes :-)
Harish Suvarna
>In article <4lk5gp$s...@chronicle.mti.sgi.com>, Harish Suvarna <sundu> writes:
>|> pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote:
>|> >Sami wrote:
>|> >
>|> >>
>|> >> PS: Pradeep yaar, will the KKKlan ever go beyond "Paayalwaali dekhna..." and
>|> >> "Mere naina saawan bhaadon..." as examples for KK's so-called classical
>|> >> prowess ? Dono records kuchh zyaada hi ghas chuke hain :-)
>|> >>
>|> >
>|> >Ok Sami here are some more:
>|> >Raag: jhinjhoti
>|> >
>|> >koi hamadam na raha
>|> >Jhumroo
>|> >
>|> >ghunghroo ki taraha bajata
>|> >chor machaye shor
>|> >
>|> >mera jeevan kora kaagaz
>|> >
>|> >Raag: khamaj
>|> >Kuch to log kahenge
>|> >Amar Prem
>|> >
>|> >Raag: PahaDi
>|> >Is modse jaate hain
>|> rather than saying that KK sang classicals too.
>
>If that's what you are looking for, may I suggest throw away all
>your Rafi tapes and buy yourself few Pt. Jasraj tapes :-)
>
>
$$$$$ No Way, Dubey saab !!
I would like to severely counter the argument that If someone wants to
hear the quarter/half/full classicals I should go and listen to Pt Jasraj or
SRI Paluskar Guruji or Parween Sultana. I do that too. But it does not mean
that I should not listen or praise the semi/full classicals sung by Rafi or
Mannadey. Because it is these people who brought the classical stuff to common
man in an appreciable manner.
For ex, songs like 'Man Tarpat Hari Darshan',
'Maduban me radhika', 'Bainya na dharo', 'man mohana badi jhute'
All these types of songs have (base raaga, some laya, some taal, some
alaapana)
I can not imagine classical singers popularising them. Why? because
1) some classical singers do not want to sing filmi songs at all
2) some consider it inferior to sing tunes composed by some one else who does
not belong to any gharaaana
3) some think that when the song is sung the attention is on the hero/heroine
rather than themselves (they are not habituated to this)
4) I have even doubts on whether they can sing well by applying themselves to
the song situation
In these situations if the filmi singer is talented he/she can bring the
'classicness' to common people. The common people may not know the raag,taal
etc but they enjoy. Another example I can quote is that a few years back
'shankarabharanam' (telugu) was a massive hit in Andhra Pradesh. It is about a
classical singer and all songs were semi-classical type. If they were sung by
Balamurali or some other classical singer rather than SPB I bet, the film
would have flopped.
The point is that Rafi is talented to sing these kinds of songs very well and
KK is not. It is as clear as the ganges in gangotri.
-Harish
Shalini Razdan
>==========Ravi Krishna, 4/24/96==========
Uh, who says that Kishore is more liked? And by whom...Kishore
fans?! :-)
Shalini
Shalini Razdan
>==========Syed Rizwan, 4/24/96==========
>
>In <4lj8np$f...@ricketts1a.its.rpi.edu>
>kan...@ricketts1a.its.rpi.edu (Senthil K Kandasamy) writes:
>|> Wy de hell shud the comparison be on basis of ability to sing
>classical songs ?
>>|> Could Rafi yodel like KK ?
Actually yes! I suggest the unenlightened Kishore fans :-))
watch Agra Road(MD: Roshan,
stars Shakila, Vijay Anand) if they think this just a bit of
wishful thinking on my part. Oh,
I do love the sound of a Kishorephile's jaw dropping! :-)))
Shalini
Ketan
> Rafi was in his prime during the golden period and there were
> lesser number of lousy songs in this era... (well ..that's why
> the golden period gets it's name) .. KK ruled during and well
> after the onset of the decay.. ie. the late 70's and early 80's.
> Pradeep.. on this count you must admit that KK sang a larger # of
> radhidhi songs than Rafi... even my friend Ketan admitted to this
> during a recent phone call (now that's sad my dear KKKlaners).
>
Abey Ghochoo! :) I admitted it out of pity seeing u in your soporific
state. Yes, KK may have sung more "radhdi" songs than Rafi, but
according to what you yourself admitted, the fault lay not with KK, but
with MD's like Bappi L coming into the picture, and even to a certain
extent LP, KA, RR, RDB etc. How very convenient to leave out this part
of the conversation. Is it KK's fault that he lacked the great MD's of
the 50's and the 60's. Quite co incidentally the decline of Rafi in the
late 60's and 70's as regards voice quality and popularity began right
around the time the great MD's started declining, namely Roshan, MM,
Naushad, and with SDB switching over to KK. Thus one can say that Rafi
lasted only as long as the MD's did, while KK lasted in both eras. I know
that Rafians will pull in the argument of the movies changing in story
and character, but again, it shows KK's versatility in keeping up with
the trends, and exposes Rafi's ability to adapt, to the actors, MD's,
music etc.
> Duniya na bhaye mohe abh tho bula le
> Oh Duniya ke rakhawale
Well than Rafi is the only singer I know who can make a devotional song
like the above 2 sound like a "Jaane kahan gaye woh din" type of a song,
full of pathos and sadness. Congrats to the Rafians on achieving this
versatility in your man, atleast.
> Well how about Rafi's
>
> Badi der bhayee (P-stats pl. It's probably a SJ composition)
Ketan
A Burman and a KK fan(atic)
SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED
>Just wanted all you fighters to know that there
>is quite a bit more to come from Salil HQ regarding
In other words, the Klan has taken time-out to disrupt the RAFIan
3-point shooting :-) Nice try, Pradeep, but it won't work.
>I have collected more information in this regard than I ever
>hoped from very 'informed' RMIM-gurus!!
I "Vish" you good luck in seeking help from the "very 'informed' RMIM
gurus". However, I "Vish" you wouldn't claim these RMIM gurus to be KKKlaners
'cause I know that they are not :-)
>P.S. Also IMHO we should no more be discussing
>in this context songs from purely lyrics-content
>(devotional/patriotic etc.) ...
^^^^^^^^^^
C'mon Pradeep, don't give up so easily... here are some more "devotional"
songs of KK to help you:
1. "RAM-pur ka baasi hun main, LAXMAN mera naam...."
2. "Dede pyaar de pyaar de pyaar de re..."
(Afterall it has the same tune as "ALLAH megh de paani de chhaya de re tu..."
:-)
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
Prince Kohli
Harish Suvarna <sundu> writes:
|>
|> The point is that Rafi is talented to sing these kinds of songs very well and
|> KK is not. It is as clear as the ganges in gangotri.
I bet you haven't ever been to Gangotri, have you? :-) The Ganga
unfortunately starts off muddy.
Thus your point is as unclear as the ...
-Prince [A MannaDeyian]
p.s. This is fun.
Anand Kuppuswamy
Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc
Subject: Re: Kishore Vs. Rafi (Re: Favorite songs, special moments)
Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]
Hi,
Ketan (ke...@seminole.iag.net) wrote:
: Abey Ghochoo! :) I admitted it out of pity seeing u in your soporific
: state. Yes, KK may have sung more "radhdi" songs than Rafi, but
: according to what you yourself admitted, the fault lay not with KK, but
: with MD's like Bappi L coming into the picture, and even to a certain
: extent LP, KA, RR, RDB etc. How very convenient to leave out this part
: of the conversation. Is it KK's fault that he lacked the great MD's of
: the 50's and the 60's. Quite co incidentally the decline of Rafi in the
: late 60's and 70's as regards voice quality and popularity began right
: around the time the great MD's started declining, namely Roshan, MM,
: Naushad, and with SDB switching over to KK. Thus one can say that Rafi
: lasted only as long as the MD's did, while KK lasted in both eras. I know
Voice deterioration is independent of the presence/ absence of MDs. It
starts as one starts aging and occurs at different stages in different
singers. Using that as an argument to say that Kishore was a better singer
than Rafi is only foolhardy!
In any case, inspite of his voice degradation, Rafi gave the music world
such great qawwalis as: Hey agar dushman (raag:kalawathi), Pal do Pal ka
Saath Hamara (raag: kedar), Pardah hai Pardah (raag: Malkauns??) and many
more beautiful raaga based songs in the 70's.
: that Rafians will pull in the argument of the movies changing in story
: and character, but again, it shows KK's versatility in keeping up with
: the trends, and exposes Rafi's ability to adapt, to the actors, MD's,
: music etc.
These claims have little substance in them. For about 25 years Rafi ruled
the music world with his melody and music nyaan! During that period Kishore
would have done well to take a few music lessons from the master!
: > Duniya na bhaye mohe abh tho bula le
: > Oh Duniya ke rakhawale
: Well than Rafi is the only singer I know who can make a devotional song
: like the above 2 sound like a "Jaane kahan gaye woh din" type of a song,
: full of pathos and sadness. Congrats to the Rafians on achieving this
: versatility in your man, atleast.
These are sad songs and not really devotional (just because 'Hari' or
'Rakhwale' appears in the songs!). They are meant to convey those emotions!
: > Well how about Rafi's
: >
: > Badi der bhayee (P-stats pl. It's probably a SJ composition)
: Ketan
: A Burman and a KK fan(atic)
These are desperate attempts by KKians! They have to search nook and corner
for ONE song where Rafi may not have been at his best (after having
delivered a few thousand hits!).
Theorem: Any song sung by Kishore could have been sung by Rafi.
The converse is not true (as all of us know!)
regards,
Anand
Harish Suvarna
I have'nt been. I wish I had. But I inferred it from 'ram teri ganga maili',
where gangotri
was shown and it was clean. Was'nt that gangotri?
If it is not, my point will be clean and clear after some time and it won't be
muddy again aftyer some more time.
-Harish
ps: justu foru funnu
Satish Subramanian
Ramesh Hariharan wrote:
> .. `Tasweer teri dil mein' is an exceptional song .. and is
> vintage Salil.. complex but beautiful ! I don't care how
> hard Rafi worked to get it right .. but the result is great.
Pradeep Dubey writes:
> Ramesh: now we all know Rafi Sahab did in fact work very
> hard (a fact you may or may not care about). Still the
> million dollar unanswered question remains: Did he still get
> it right???
Maybe Rafi didn't get it right. (The information in the Lata book by
Bharatan mentioned that most of the musicians, including Lata, were
getting restless as time progressed, and so the recording was wrapped
up after 11 takes). But this hardly says anything about Kishore or
that he was better than Rafi. All it means is that Salil's composition
was tough. In fact, consider another Salil song that Ketan mentioned
(in favor of Kishore),
Ketan Dholakia wrote:
> Salil C himself said that for the song "Guzar jaaye din"
> from Annadata, he wanted KK, since only he could do it the
> required justice. this is from a Filmfare issue, which I
> have in my possesion, in an article which was a tribute to
> SalilC, shortly after his death. This song uses a unique
> scale progression, unheard of in Hindi film music till then,
> and SalilC insisted on KK.
Very cleverly (being a KKKlaner) Ketan ignored certain portions of
this article.
Indeed Salil had said he wanted Kishore to sing the song as "Kishore
would give 90% credibility to the song". But what actually happened
was that during recording Kishore had had a tough time singing the
complex tune! In fact, they had to go for 18 takes just for this
song! (Maybe, Mukesh might have had an easy time in singing "nain
hamaare saanjh" from Annadata than Kishore in "Guzar jaayen din".-
that comment was just to split the Mukesh fan votes :)
Anyway, after all those takes, did Kishore still get it right?
So the natural conclusion would be, for difficult Salil compositions
neither Kishore nor Rafi score any points.
--
bye
satish
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Snehal B. Oza (sne...@wipro.wipsys.soft.net) wrote:
: not fade away completely. Yes Talat did. But than Geeta Roy and even Nurjahan
: in Pakistan faded away too. Does that mean you will place them in list of
: *just* good singers ?
Geeta Roy faded?? I always thought that after her marriage she just stopped
singing for any other production but hubby dearest (in most cases, are there
any exceptions?), leaving the door wide open for Ms Mangeshkar....
{Just thought might as well go ahead and involve the ladies too. :) }.
Later,
Ikram.
Pradeep Dubey
No flames Chetan but shouldn't in all fairness the
same question be asked for Rafi as well?
Pradeep
Pradeep Dubey
Of course he got it right!! Now please enlighten me if
you believe the answer is otherwise.
So this proves further the point that inspite of no training/schooling
when need arose to respond to most challenging singing needs,
KK never failed! If a math PhD fails to solve a certain diff eqn
for 11 days and then a high school kid walks in and solves it
(or a similarly complex eqn) in 18 days, who would score more
points ? :-):-)
Pradeep
Pradeep Dubey
In article <DqFG0...@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>, Shalini Razdan <shalini...@atlantaga.ncr.com> writes:
|>
|> >==========Syed Rizwan, 4/24/96==========
|> >
|> >In <4lj8np$f...@ricketts1a.its.rpi.edu>
|> >kan...@ricketts1a.its.rpi.edu (Senthil K Kandasamy) writes:
|> >|> Wy de hell shud the comparison be on basis of ability to sing
|> >classical songs ?
|> >>|> Could Rafi yodel like KK ?
|>
|> Actually yes! I suggest the unenlightened Kishore fans :-))
|> watch Agra Road(MD: Roshan,
|> stars Shakila, Vijay Anand) if they think this just a bit of
|> wishful thinking on my part. Oh,
|> I do love the sound of a Kishorephile's jaw dropping! :-)))
Shalini: please enlighten! I seriously would want a tape
of this song (all expenses paid of course).
Are there other such songs of Rafi, please list? If not:
does this 'first and last' attempt imply something!!
Pradeep
Ramesh Hariharan
pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote:
>In article <4lit6d$k...@crdnns.crd.ge.com>, Ramesh Hariharan <hari...@crd.ge.com> writes:
>|> and is vintage Salil.. complex but beautiful ! I don't care how hard
>|> Rafi worked to get it right .. but the result is great.
>
>(a fact you may or may not care about). Still the million dollar
>unanswered question remains: Did he still get it right???
>
I just heard this song about 6 times last night and if at all I see any
problem it is that Lata gets a little screechy in the 3rd paragraph.
Rafi's part sounds fine though.. infact Rafi manages to keep that part soft ... they (Vish/Rajan) are perhaps refering to
Tumase nazar jab gayii hai mil
Jahaa.N hai kadam tere vahii.n meraa dil
^^^^ high !
Jhuke jahaa.N palake.n terii, khule jahaa.N zulfe.n terii
^^^^ ^^^^^^
As far as I can tell that would the most complicated part and it sounds
perfect.
I guess sometimes it's better to be ignorant. Atleast I am not critical
to the point of biting everything down to dirt :-) Obviously all my KK
flames are meant in good spirit, sowing seeds for more discussion from
folks like Pradeep and Sanjeev...(it's too bad the two presidents Sami
and Rajan are too busy).. One guy called Samarth Godbole just sent me a
lengthy gaali mail .. which after extensive censorship reads to the tone
of "Being a Hindu you should be ashamed to call a Muslim singer your
favorite .. especially for devotional songs" (sounds Shiv-Sena types to
me) .. Now Mr. Ghodbole, someone like you doesn't even deserve a reply
. all I can tell u is that's not the nature of this newsgroup.... Well
if people like me are a minority, can't help humming ..
Mehfil ye nahi teriii diwaane kahin chal
Ramesh Hariharan
ps. Just wondering .. which holes do these creeps come from ? :-)
Ravi Krishna
From: Ketan <ke...@seminole.iag.net>
>Salil C himself said that for the song "Guzar jaaye din" from Annadata,
>he wanted KK, since only he could do it the required justice. this is
>from a Filmfar issue, which I have in my possesion, in an article which
>was a tribute to SalilC, shortly after his death. This song uses a unique
>scale progression, unheard of in Hindi film music till then, and SalilC
>insisted on KK.
Do you know that the above mentioned song from Annadatta was completed after
an amazing 18 ( yes 18 ) retakes. I read that in Times of India tribute to
Salil Choudhury when he passed away.
Ketan
> Ketan Dholakia wrote:
>
> > Salil C himself said that for the song "Guzar jaaye din"
> > from Annadata, he wanted KK, since only he could do it the
> > have in my possesion, in an article which was a tribute to
> > SalilC, shortly after his death. This song uses a unique
> > scale progression, unheard of in Hindi film music till then,
> > and SalilC insisted on KK.
>
> this article.
>
> Indeed Salil had said he wanted Kishore to sing the song as "Kishore
> would give 90% credibility to the song". But what actually happened
> was that during recording Kishore had had a tough time singing the
> complex tune! In fact, they had to go for 18 takes just for this
> song! (Maybe, Mukesh might have had an easy time in singing "nain
> hamaare saanjh" from Annadata than Kishore in "Guzar jaayen din".-
> that comment was just to split the Mukesh fan votes :)
Do we know why it took 18 takes?? Was that mentioned in the Times of
India or Filmfare? Maybe it was the recording engineer, who kept
tripping over the wires, or maybe it was the flute player who instead of
playing the flute was shooting seeds out of the instrument at the violin
player with whom he had a personal animosity, or maybe it was Salil C
himself who was unsatisfied with the words or the music. All that is
mentioned in the article was that the song was recorded in 18 takes. No
reasons were given as to why.
Are we not missing the point here, which is that Rafi was never even
considered in the first place, and this is a 1970-71 movie if I am not
mistaken, when Rafi might have been downhill but was not out. Please
hear the final result. KK has done a great job as always.
mkongovi
The way the battle is going, Rafi's side getting stronger with
better ammunition -
semi-classical, bhajan, ghazals.... - the only name I can think
of for the Rafi fans is
RAFIANs[ pronounced more like ruffians - definitely not meant ]
madhu
Arun Verma
Yo RMIMers!!!
Here is what I make out of ongoing ``WAR''. Please
take everything in light humor.
(everything that follows is just fiction)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rizwan :
*grin* hmmm... loRD burman was the greatest
singer ever, can't you people understand that? *damn*.. *chuckle*
His voice was of the greatest quality ever..'nuff said *tattle*.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject : Poll : Who is better, Kishore or Rafi??
Joshi: >>>>>> KKKKKKKKIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHOOOOOOORRRRRRRREEEEEE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Sanjeev: >>>>No.
>>>> RR AA FF II
>>>>
>>>> RR AA FF II
>>>>
>>>> RR AA FF II
>>>>
>>>> RR AA FF II
Joshi: >> K
>> KIS
>> KISHO
>> KISHORE
>> KISHOREKI
>> KISHOREKISH
>> KISHOREKISHOR
>> KISHOREKISHOREK
>> KISHOREKISHOREKIS
>> KISHOREKISHOREKISHO
Sanjeev: > RAFI
> RAFI RAFI
> FI RAFI RAFI RA
> AFI RAFI RAFI RAF
> RAFI RAFI RAFI RAFI
> RAFI RAFI RAFI RAFI
> AFI RAFI RAFI RAF
> FI RAFI RAFI RA
> RAFI RAFI
> RAFI
Rizwan: *damn*..None of the above, see my earlier post in this thread
for substantiation ..*grin*..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sami: Rafi was better than Mukesh anyway!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Preeti: How can you say that?...BTW, Naushad sucked big time.
This RafiDude always sang soooo low.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pradeep : Did Rafi sing 'Tasveer teri dil ..' right? No!! So there..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramesh: Jeez! How can u ppl be so stupid. How can a man who married 4 (or was it
5) be the greatest singer of all time!! and jeez..he sang a lot of
'radhdhi' songs ...maaannn this dude couldn't even recite the sargam
in 'pag ghunghroo..'..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classic Arguments : Rafi is greatest because :
- He did play back for KK.
- He sang classical too.
Kishore was the greatest :
- You know he could Yodel.
- He could sing in two voices.
- He always seemed to be enjoying himself while singing.
Kishore sucked because:
-Johnny Lever can yodell better.
-For god sake, he didn't sing any bhajans.!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, have you guys also observed what I did
* Any KK fan _has to be_ a fan of the Burmans.
* Any Mukesh fan _has to be_ a ShankyJ fanatic and vice versa.
* Any Rafi Fanatic _has to be_ a fan of Naushad, and must hate MKaps!
Hey, please take this in light humor..No offence meant!!!
Cheers
Arun
Shalini Razdan
>==========Chetan Vinchhi, 4/24/96==========
>
>
>Alright, here's a question for Rafians and Klaners.
>I was planning not to ask this for fear of strong reaction
>on both sides, especially the over-zealous Klaners. But
>since the topic of the singing abilities of KK is on the
>forefront of your thoughts at this time, let me ask it.
>
>No flames allowed !! Only answers.
>
>Does anyone else (other than me) think that KK went
>'besura' (for want of a better word) sometimes ? It seems
>to me that once in a while, he started off a stanza or a
>line with the *wrong* note and quickly adjusted it so that
>*most* of his singing adhered to the tune but that one
>fraction of a jarring second he was off key.
>
Now that you mention it, there a couple of songs where I've noticed
him do this. Of course, this in no way detracts from the thousands of
songs that he has sung perfectly, but that momentary aberration does
catch your attention in a few songs. The two examples that come to
mind immediately are "jeevan ke har mod pe miljayenge hamsafar"
from Khel Khel Mein and "sagar kinare, dil ye pukare" from
Sagar. In the first song, he's ever so slightly off key when he begins
the song but readjusts once Asha joins in. As for sagar kinare, he loses
it for a second with "ho tuhi akele to khoyee nahin hai." Of course,
these alleged off-key moments could just be figaments of my
ear's imagination. :-)
Shalini