Lata/Asha and a Test.
Unknown
Greetings,
I remember how in the case of KK/Rafi, a simple test was done to prove who
is better. Both their versions of "Tum bin jaaon kahan" were brought forth,
and the unanimous decision was that KK's version was far better, and the
Rafians agreed to it wholeheartedly too. :)) {Anyone who expected me to
say the opposite has been in solitary confinement for far too long :) }
Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there any song that
they both have sung independently, and not as a duet. This would exclude
songs from Sharda, and Utsav. Rather it would limit, them to songs like
"Samay O, dheere chalo" from Rudaali. Ofcourse, I expect Lataittes (or is
it Lataians), to howl saying she was past her prime, but then so is Asha
during the rendering of that song. {Rafians had used a similar argument
for "tum bin jaaon kahan", ignoring the fact that Rafi sang for another
decade after that song too). If Asha is better in the Rudaali song, then
her voice has held up better over the course of the years, and she is the
better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
After all what good is a one-hit-song wonder? Ofcourse one should not say,
"Ohh she is 60+ and yet she sounds good". While one does not expect them to
sing the way they sang at 20, should they not be able to maintain sur, be
it at 20 or 60 years of age? So who succeeds in this category? Asha does
for sure {and to think Malini was ready to give me the baton to carry on
the pro-Lata campaign in her absence :) }
Even hardcore Lata fans, admit that Lata does sound besur quite often these
days. If that is so, why is it that producers and MD's still line up outside her
door? I mean, in the recent past, she has sung in Darr, DDLJ, HAHK, Rudaali,
and countless others, and I definitely, think that atleast Shiv-Hari and
Bhupen Hazarika, would have put up the no-entry signs for Lata, if they
did not think of her as capable if not good.
To end this discourse, I can think of only one other song, which both of
them have sung independently. This is in Adalat(MM), and it goes something
like "Ja Ja re Ja....". There is a happy version sung by Asha, and a sad
version sung by Lata. I don't know if this would count as a sufficient
example.
Stop Press News : I just got off the phone with a hardcore Lataiite, Chetan,
and he said, that "Jo samay main ho gaye amar" was sung by both, and
according to him, Lata sings it better. He however states that as regards
"Samay O", he would rather listen to Asha, since although according to him,
both have sung well, Asha sounds less besura than does Lata.
Any opinions anyone else?
Ketan
A Bursack fan(atic)
Sanjeev Kumar
ke...@iag.net wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> I remember how in the case of KK/Rafi, a simple test was done to
> prove who is better. Both their versions of "Tum bin jaaon kahan"
> were brought forth, and the unanimous decision was that KK's
> version was far better, and the Rafians agreed to it
> wholeheartedly too. :)) {Anyone who expected me to say the
> opposite has been in solitary confinement for far too long :) }
>
> Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there
> any song that they both have sung independently, and not as a duet.
Have you ever realized that singing/music is an art and that
art is appreciated in a highly subjective manner. There are even
guys who like Kumar Sanu, for Christ's sake! This proves that
art has no barriers, when it is being appreciated.
There is some point in comparing two artists if they are in the
same calibre, or say if one guy is trying to clone the other.
Why do you people want to compare two great artists who are
unique? What crude pleasure does it give you guys, when it is proved
by a vociferous majority that one singer is better than the
other? I guess the singers/artists woudn't have imagined that
they would be compared to this extent at this level. Somebody
even went to the extent of saying somebody has a baazaru voice
just because she happened to sing such type of songs.
Y'all agree that there are some good songs sung by KK and some
by Rafi. Don't you all know that Lata and Asha too have their
own measure of talent. Then why compare them? Why? Why?......
I fail to understand.
Let's have some qualitative discussions in this ng. Don't
tell me even quality is subjective!
Sanjeev
Surajit A. Bose
ke...@iag.net wrote:
> Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there any song that
> they both have sung independently, and not as a duet. This would exclude
> songs from Sharda, and Utsav. Rather it would limit, them to songs like
> "Samay O, dheere chalo" from Rudaali.
Why *NOT* use the duets as a test? Why is a tandem song better than a
duet to judge the issue?
>
> To end this discourse, I can think of only one other song, which both of
> them have sung independently. This is in Adalat(MM), and it goes something
> like "Ja Ja re Ja....". There is a happy version sung by Asha, and a sad
> version sung by Lata. I don't know if this would count as a sufficient
> example.
No, it wouldn't. Lata's "jaa jaa re jaa" is a beautiful, moving piece;
Asha's is a fairly ghaTiyaa mujra. Two entirely different songs, really;
only the mukhdaa happens to be the same. Just proves the point that Asha
was given mostly second-rate songs.
> Stop Press News : I just got off the phone with a hardcore Lataiite, Chetan,
> and he said, that "Jo samay main ho gaye amar" was sung by both, and
> according to him, Lata sings it better. He however states that as regards
> "Samay O", he would rather listen to Asha, since although according to him,
> both have sung well, Asha sounds less besura than does Lata.
Again, this isn't a fit basis for comparison, simply because it's boring
as hell. "jo samar me.n ho gaye amar" (not "samay") is one of the very
few Jaidev songs even I find dull as dishwater; trite lyrics and
lackluster composition. I haven't heard Asha's version, but Lata's is
indifferently composed and indifferently rendered--and even that may be
an overstatement.
Speaking of Jaidev, BTW, the much-maligned "baalaa mai.n bairaagan
huu.Ngii" includes, in addition to the Usha/Meena compositions, some
BEAUTIFUL Jaidev bhajans by Asha. "aalii rii mere nainaa baaN parii"
captures bhakti-shringaara perfectly, and nobody could have sung it
better. If Asha-bashers can't appreciate the Jaidev compositions on this
recording, then nothing will change their minds--they have decided that
Asha cannot sing bhajans, and will maintain that opinion despite all the
concrete evidence to the contrary. Right, Anil? :-)
-s
FatK9
On "Samay O Dheere Chalo" - Asha all the way...in general, I tend to
"believe" Asha's emotions more, whatever they be, from "Yeh Mera Dil Yaar
ka Deewana" to "Ab Ke Baras Bhej", and this song is no exception. For me
it's not a question of "besura"...
With all due respect, I feel like Lata has gotten into this pattern of
singing everything with this really lazy, unnecessarily weepy tone these
days, regardless of what it is. I know her "Kuchh Na Kaho" from 1942 - ALS
is supposed to be sad, but is SOOOO weepy and draggy (I mean, does she
EVER land ON the beat?)
that I actually prefer Kumar Sanu's version of it to hers...
On Tum Bin Jaaoon Kahaan - they BOTH sang it well - and Rafi was NOT way
past his prime...the Kishore version became more popular, but am I the
only RafiAN that doesn't disavow Rafi's rendering of this song? :-( :-(
BTW, what-the-hell emotion is Kishore's yodelling (which he does do
masterfully as usual) supposed to portray? I earlier asked this question
without any response...
Surajit A. Bose
Sanjeev Kumar wrote:
> It looks like telephony is becoming obsolete because of Usenet
> Ngs! :-) Please talk music here.!
<snip>
> Have you ever realized that singing/music is an art and that
> art is appreciated in a highly subjective manner. There are even
> guys who like Kumar Sanu, for Christ's sake! This proves that
> art has no barriers, when it is being appreciated.
<snip>
> Let's have some qualitative discussions in this ng. Don't
> tell me even quality is subjective!
Get used to it, Sanjeev. RMIM is a forum where friends hang out to chat,
and we intersperse our discussions of music with personal gibes and
jokes, just like in any friendly conversation there are strictly
irrelevant but fun asides--in fact, those asides make the conversation
truly enjoyable, not just a dry discussion. Also, one way of looking at
arguments like the current Lata/Asha one is to view them as totally
pointless; another, more in keeping with the spirit of the group, is
that they are an end in themselves.
-s
Ashok
In article <5ouak3$d...@drn.zippo.com>, Ketaè says...
>
>I remember how in the case of KK/Rafi, a simple test was done to prove who
>is better. Both their versions of "Tum bin jaaon kahan" were brought forth,
>and the unanimous decision was that KK's version was far better,
>To end this discourse, I can think of only one other song, which both of
>them have sung independently. This is in Adalat(MM), and it goes something
>like "Ja Ja re Ja....". There is a happy version sung by Asha, and a sad
>version sung by Lata. I don't know if this would count as a sufficient
>example.
>
>Stop Press News : I just got off the phone with a hardcore Lataiite, Chetan,
>and he said, that "Jo samay main ho gaye amar" was sung by both, and
>according to him, Lata sings it better. He however states that as regards
>"Samay O", he would rather listen to Asha, since although according to him,
>both have sung well, Asha sounds less besura than does Lata.
>
>Any opinions anyone else?
I suggest you ponder about the margin of error when your sample is of
size 1! Otherwise, what will you make of the following test result?
Both Kamal Barot and Asha Bhosle have sung the "murgi ne jhoot bola"
song in 'Manmauji' and if you treat it as a contest, Kamal Barot wins
it hands down. So, are you going to conclude Kamal Barot > Asha?
If not, you should concede that your other conclusions (KK > Rafi,
Lata >?< Asha) are all equally tenuous.
Still an F in decision theory! :)
>
>Ketan
>
>A Bursack fan(atic)
Ashok
dee...@usa.net
In article <5ouak3$d...@drn.zippo.com>,
Ketan(ke...@iag.net) wrote:
>
>
> Greetings,
>
> I remember how in the case of KK/Rafi, a simple test was done to prove who
> is better. Both their versions of "Tum bin jaaon kahan" were brought forth,
> Rafians agreed to it wholeheartedly too. :)) {Anyone who expected me to
> say the opposite has been in solitary confinement for far too long :) }
>
IMHO the writer has assumed "mounam sammatti lakshanam",by saying that
Rafians have wholeheartedly agreed.By merely yodelling does make the
version far better than rafi saab's.In fact by yodelling it spoils the
mood.Imagine a bhikari yodelling(sorry if this is obnoxious) while
singing(AFAIK this song is picturised on bharat bhusan as a bhikari in
the movie).Moreover if kishore sang it well why was he not given "ni
sultanare "..(this comment may be uncalled for but couldn't resist)
Though i am an ardent fan of rafisaab i do like KK's songs.What pleasure
people derive by comparing rafisaab/KK ,Asha/Lata.Once a person likes a
singer he always defends him however good or bad he is.I have been
reading articles on KK/Rafi war,Asha/Lata..Till now i have not observed
fans switching 'camps',on the contrary they are more vociferous in the
support of their idols.
> Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there any song that
> they both have sung independently, and not as a duet. This would exclude
> songs from Sharda, and Utsav. Rather it would limit, them to songs like
> "Samay O, dheere chalo" from Rudaali. Ofcourse, I expect Lataittes (or is
> it Lataians), to howl saying she was past her prime, but then so is Asha
> during the rendering of that song. {Rafians had used a similar argument
> for "tum bin jaaon kahan", ignoring the fact that Rafi sang for another
> decade after that song too). If Asha is better in the Rudaali song, then
> her voice has held up better over the course of the years, and she is the
> better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
> an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
> After all what good is a one-hit-song wonder? Ofcourse one should not say,
> "Ohh she is 60+ and yet she sounds good". While one does not expect them to
> sing the way they sang at 20, should they not be able to maintain sur, be
> it at 20 or 60 years of age? So who succeeds in this category? Asha does
> for sure {and to think Malini was ready to give me the baton to carry on
> the pro-Lata campaign in her absence :) }
>
> Even hardcore Lata fans, admit that Lata does sound besur quite often these
> days. If that is so, why is it that producers and MD's still line up outside
her
> door? I mean, in the recent past, she has sung in Darr, DDLJ, HAHK, Rudaali,
> and countless others, and I definitely, think that atleast Shiv-Hari and
> Bhupen Hazarika, would have put up the no-entry signs for Lata, if they
> did not think of her as capable if not good.
>
> To end this discourse, I can think of only one other song, which both of
> them have sung independently. This is in Adalat(MM), and it goes something
> like "Ja Ja re Ja....". There is a happy version sung by Asha, and a sad
> version sung by Lata. I don't know if this would count as a sufficient
> example.
>
> Stop Press News : I just got off the phone with a hardcore Lataiite, Chetan,
> and he said, that "Jo samay main ho gaye amar" was sung by both, and
> according to him, Lata sings it better. He however states that as regards
> "Samay O", he would rather listen to Asha, since although according to him,
> both have sung well, Asha sounds less besura than does Lata.
>
> Any opinions anyone else?
>
> Ketan
>
> A Bursack fan(atic)
Lata and Asha have been always subjected to these
comparisons,rivalries,how didi tried to dominate..so on...This even led
to the making of a movie!
-----
Deepak
Bangalore,India
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Ketan
In article <8673899...@dejanews.com>, dee...@usa.net says...
> IMHO the writer has assumed "mounam sammatti lakshanam",by saying that
>Rafians have wholeheartedly agreed.By merely yodelling does make the
>version far better than rafi saab's.In fact by yodelling it spoils the
>mood.Imagine a bhikari yodelling(sorry if this is obnoxious) while
>singing(AFAIK this song is picturised on bharat bhusan as a bhikari in
>the movie).Moreover if kishore sang it well why was he not given "ni
>sultanare "..(this comment may be uncalled for but couldn't resist)
Hmm, since it seems to me that you have watched the movie, this might seem
unneccessary, but anyway, I feel the need to clarify. I watched both the
KK and Rafi versions of the songs last night itself.
A) BB is not a "bhikari". He is just someone who is poor, and out on his
luck.
B) He (BB) does not yodel. Whenever the yodel comes on, the camera pans the
sky, to signify that this maybe a voice from the heavens (no pun intended
here, :) well none was intended, but what the heck!) Give some credit to
RDB and Nazir Hussain as regards song picturization.
C) As regards "Ni Sultana Re", again your question is valid, but the story
has BB as one character and Shashi K as the other character, and SK's songs
were sung by Rafi to differentiate between the 2 characters. Hence.
Ketan
A Bursack fan(atic)
Subhash Phatak
ke...@iag.net wrote:
>
> Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there any song that
> they both have sung independently, and not as a duet. This would exclude
> songs from Sharda, and Utsav.
>
> Any opinions anyone else?
>
> Ketan
>
> A Bursack fan(atic)
I have not heard any comments or mention in this thread about song in
"Miss Mary" , a duet sung by Lata and Asha ( Sakhi ri sun bole papihaa
us paar). If you listen to this song very carefully, you will really
find hardly any difference in both voices. Both are heavenly with
nobody better or less than the other.
Both singers are great. Why are we trying to prove one better than
other. Those who LIKE Lata better, are always going to say that she is
better, and vice versa. It is because of emotional involvement and not
for really evaluating impartially.
Regarding besur part of a song, you have to consider many aspects.
These are, orchestration, music direction, quality of recording, mixing
of recording and so on. All the film songs are recorded with numerous
sound tracks. More often than not, voice sound track is done after
differen back ground and accompanients are done on their separate
tracks. So when the singers record voice track they listen to recorded
track/s of instruments. Any recorded music is always a distortation of
original music. In recording songs there are literally hundreds of
instrument playing at a time. So effect of sur/besur can be attributed
to many factors.
Further, once in a while an artist just gets besur. This is true for
almost all artists including stalwarts like Ravi Shankar, Bhimsen Joshi,
MSS, Bhismillah Khan, Ali Akbar Khan and so on. I hope people should
enjoy music for pleasure they get and not analyse or disect it. The
beauty is in enjoying as it is, even with some shortcomings it may have.
That is why 'Choudhavika Chaand' is better than 'Poonam'.
Subhash
Ketan
In article <5ouogj$n...@news2.zippo.com>, Ashok says...
>I suggest you ponder about the margin of error when your sample is of
>size 1! Otherwise, what will you make of the following test result?
>Both Kamal Barot and Asha Bhosle have sung the "murgi ne jhoot bola"
>song in 'Manmauji' and if you treat it as a contest, Kamal Barot wins
>it hands down. So, are you going to conclude Kamal Barot > Asha?
>If not, you should concede that your other conclusions (KK > Rafi,
>Lata >?< Asha) are all equally tenuous.
>
>Still an F in decision theory! :)
Bad teachers in DC. :) Which is why I am attending the skills sharpening
course in DC this weekend as a student, despite being one of the instructors
too. Hope to learn something for a change from the visiting faculty. :))
Ketan
A Bursack fan(atic)
Pradeep Dubey
In article <5ouak3$d...@drn.zippo.com>, Ketan(ke...@iag.net) writes:
|>
|> Greetings,
|>
|> I remember how in the case of KK/Rafi, a simple test was done to prove who
|> is better. Both their versions of "Tum bin jaaon kahan" were brought forth,
|> and the unanimous decision was that KK's version was far better, and the
|> Rafians agreed to it wholeheartedly too. :)) {Anyone who expected me to
|> say the opposite has been in solitary confinement for far too long :) }
The difference between these two versions is at least as much as that
between Sunny and Saif :-)
|>
|> Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there any song that
|> they both have sung independently, and not as a duet. This would exclude
|> songs from Sharda, and Utsav. Rather it would limit, them to songs like
|> "Samay O, dheere chalo" from Rudaali. Ofcourse, I expect Lataittes (or is
|> it Lataians), to howl saying she was past her prime, but then so is Asha
|> during the rendering of that song. {Rafians had used a similar argument
|> for "tum bin jaaon kahan", ignoring the fact that Rafi sang for another
|> decade after that song too). If Asha is better in the Rudaali song, then
|> her voice has held up better over the course of the years, and she is the
|> better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
|> an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
|> After all what good is a one-hit-song wonder? Ofcourse one should not say,
|> "Ohh she is 60+ and yet she sounds good". While one does not expect them to
|> sing the way they sang at 20, should they not be able to maintain sur, be
|> it at 20 or 60 years of age? So who succeeds in this category? Asha does
|> for sure {and to think Malini was ready to give me the baton to carry on
|> the pro-Lata campaign in her absence :) }
|>
|> Even hardcore Lata fans, admit that Lata does sound besur quite often these
|> days. If that is so, why is it that producers and MD's still line up outside her
|> door? I mean, in the recent past, she has sung in Darr, DDLJ, HAHK, Rudaali,
|> and countless others, and I definitely, think that atleast Shiv-Hari and
|> Bhupen Hazarika, would have put up the no-entry signs for Lata, if they
|> did not think of her as capable if not good.
If Salil settled for Asha and Kavita K, instead of Lata, for his last
album, the message unfortunately couldn't be stronger for Lata fans ...
|>
|> To end this discourse, I can think of only one other song, which both of
|> them have sung independently. This is in Adalat(MM), and it goes something
|> like "Ja Ja re Ja....". There is a happy version sung by Asha, and a sad
|> version sung by Lata. I don't know if this would count as a sufficient
|> example.
|>
|> Stop Press News : I just got off the phone with a hardcore Lataiite, Chetan,
|> and he said, that "Jo samay main ho gaye amar" was sung by both, and
^^^^^
I assume you meant 'samar', else it wouldn't mean much.
|> according to him, Lata sings it better. He however states that as regards
|> "Samay O", he would rather listen to Asha, since although according to him,
|> both have sung well, Asha sounds less besura than does Lata.
I have always considered 'besura' a very strong word ... but RMIM is
very different these days :-)
Pradeep
Pavan Kumar Desikan
ke...@iag.net (Ketan) wrote:
: Greetings,
: I remember how in the case of KK/Rafi, a simple test was done to prove who
: is better. Both their versions of "Tum bin jaaon kahan" were brought forth,
: and the unanimous decision was that KK's version was far better, and the
: Rafians agreed to it wholeheartedly too. :)) {Anyone who expected me to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: say the opposite has been in solitary confinement for far too long :) }
And who was the Rafian who wholeheartedly agreed to it? The only person
that I know who has "agreed" to it wholeheartedly is Ketan. So I guess it is
safe to conclude that Ketan is a closet Rafian:). Ketan, care to diulge the
names of the closet Rafians? :)
: Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha?
For the simple reason that such a test has not been devised.
: Is there any song that
: they both have sung independently, and not as a duet.
Why do you want to exclude duets? You do not have many tandem songs by
Lata/Asha to make any kind of statistical conclusions about their
singing. As a matter of fact, even if you include their duets you would
still be woefully short of songs to make any kind of comparision IMO.
: better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
: an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
It is, but it is not the only factor.
: After all what good is a one-hit-song wonder? Ofcourse one should not say,
: "Ohh she is 60+ and yet she sounds good". While one does not expect them to
: sing the way they sang at 20, should they not be able to maintain sur, be
: it at 20 or 60 years of age? So who succeeds in this category? Asha does
: for sure {and to think Malini was ready to give me the baton to carry on
: the pro-Lata campaign in her absence :) }
Lata was not a one song wonder. She maintained her voice for
considerably enough time to be considered great.
: Even hardcore Lata fans, admit that Lata does sound besur quite often these
: days. If that is so, why is it that producers and MD's still line up outside her
: door? I mean, in the recent past, she has sung in Darr, DDLJ, HAHK, Rudaali,
: and countless others, and I definitely, think that atleast Shiv-Hari and
: Bhupen Hazarika, would have put up the no-entry signs for Lata, if they
: did not think of her as capable if not good.
It might have something to do with the available alternatives, not to
forget the spell that Lata seems to have cast on them with her earlier
songs.
: To end this discourse, I can think of only one other song, which both of
: them have sung independently. This is in Adalat(MM), and it goes something
: like "Ja Ja re Ja....". There is a happy version sung by Asha, and a sad
: version sung by Lata. I don't know if this would count as a sufficient
: example.
It is a very bad example. The tunes are quite different though the wordings
are the same. Using this song as a yardstick will be quite unfair to Asha.
: Stop Press News : I just got off the phone with a hardcore Lataiite, Chetan,
: and he said, that "Jo samay main ho gaye amar" was sung by both, and
: according to him, Lata sings it better. He however states that as regards
: "Samay O", he would rather listen to Asha, since although according to him,
: both have sung well, Asha sounds less besura than does Lata.
: Any opinions anyone else?
: Ketan
: A Bursack fan(atic)
--
Pavan Kumar Desikan
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~pkd
Any man who goes to the psychiatrist ought to have his head examined.
- Samuel Goldwyn
Anil Hingorani
Surajit,
Surajit A. Bose wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Speaking of Jaidev, BTW, the much-maligned "baalaa mai.n bairaagan
> huu.Ngii" includes, in addition to the Usha/Meena compositions, some
> BEAUTIFUL Jaidev bhajans by Asha. "aalii rii mere nainaa baaN parii"
> captures bhakti-shringaara perfectly, and nobody could have sung it
> better. If Asha-bashers can't appreciate the Jaidev compositions on this
> recording, then nothing will change their minds--they have decided that
> Asha cannot sing bhajans, and will maintain that opinion despite all the
> concrete evidence to the contrary. Right, Anil? :-)
>
I had posted a response to Ashok's mail, which I think got lost. In
that, I had mentioned the four Jaidev composed songs of Asha on this
album. I don't have enough words to praise the compositions and Asha's
singing of those songs. In fact, 'tumul kolahal ..' is in my top 10
Asha songs - a truly memorable composition/writing/rendition. However,
to me these songs do not qualify as 'bhajans', so I still maintain that
while Asha can sing bhajans well, she misses the 'passionate devotion'
quality that say a Juthika Roy or Geeta Dutt had in their bhajans. And,
I won't even begin with Lata's bahjans:-):-)
Cheers,
Anil
Anil Hingorani
ke...@iag.net wrote:
>
<snip>
> Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there any song that
> they both have sung independently, and not as a duet. This would exclude
> songs from Sharda, and Utsav. Rather it would limit, them to songs like
> "Samay O, dheere chalo" from Rudaali. Ofcourse, I expect Lataittes (or is
> it Lataians), to howl saying she was past her prime, but then so is Asha
> during the rendering of that song. {Rafians had used a similar argument
Lata was past her prime but Asha still has a great voice. Besides, the
difference between the two versions is very little. Asha is better
in the mukhda and Lata sounds better in one of the antaras. Overall,
Asha's version is better but she should have killed Lata's version,
given the difference in their voices - BUT she did/could not.
BTW, according to what I have heard, Bhupenda prefers Asha to Lata.
That should make Asha fans happy.
> better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
> an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
NO! Don't agree with you here. Singing well should be the only criteria.
> like "Ja Ja re Ja....". There is a happy version sung by Asha, and a sad
> version sung by Lata. I don't know if this would count as a sufficient
> example.
>
This is not fair to Asha. MM tried to be OPN and failed at it. Asha's
part was so jarring that I wish they could cut it off and not include
it with Lata's beautiful singing.
> Stop Press News : I just got off the phone with a hardcore Lataiite, Chetan,
> and he said, that "Jo samay main ho gaye amar" was sung by both, and
> according to him, Lata sings it better. He however states that as regards
> "Samay O", he would rather listen to Asha, since although according to him,
> both have sung well, Asha sounds less besura than does Lata.
>
Both versions of 'jo samar mein..' are very average. Lata was
Jaidev's original choice and she did a better job. Asha sang it as a
shhradhanjali to Jaidev.
Now if Asha could sing one of Lata's songs from the 50s or 60s, then
we would know. That was when Lata was at her best, now is when Asha
is still very good. Is she up for the challenge??? What's stopping
her???? Ms. Paudwal did it:-):-)
Cheers,
Anil
Anil Hingorani
Pradeep Dubey wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> If Salil settled for Asha and Kavita K, instead of Lata, for his last
> album, the message unfortunately couldn't be stronger for Lata fans ...
>
Salil, the die-hard LATAian, wanted Lata for Vivekananda but, according
to what I have read, she did not bother to return his calls and he was
very saddened by that.
Cheers,
Anil
Ashok
In article <19970626231...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, fa...@aol.com says...
>
>
>BTW, what-the-hell emotion is Kishore's yodelling (which he does do
>masterfully as usual) supposed to portray? I earlier asked this question
>without any response...
>
>
The same emotion that is involved in an aalaap. :)
Ashok
Ashok
In article <33B7E1F0...@etsd.ml.com>, ahi...@etsd.ml.com says...
Raju Bharatan's take on it is that from the mid-1980s onward, Lata
wasn't confident of being able to sing a Salil Choudhury composition,
and started dodging him.
Ashok
Ajay P Nerurkar
Surajit A. Bose (bos...@nd.edu) wrote:
: Again, this isn't a fit basis for comparison, simply because it's boring
: as hell. "jo samar me.n ho gaye amar" (not "samay") is one of the very
: few Jaidev songs even I find dull as dishwater; trite lyrics and
: lackluster composition. I haven't heard Asha's version, but Lata's is
: indifferently composed and indifferently rendered--and even that may be
: an overstatement.
Au contraire, Mr. Bose, it's a vividly radiant composition. The reticent
orchestration fully complements Lata's crystal-clear delivery. And for the
period of time it is from (1971), Lata's voice, even in higher pitches
(except for a second or two) has a lot of the old texture.
Not long ago, I had the opportunity to listen to the two versions back to
back and Asha's clearly suffered in comparison. She completely failed to
capture the mood of the song and compounded the listener's agony by taking
unnecessary harkats in uncalled-for places.
Ajay
Snehal B. Oza
In <33B7D355...@etsd.ml.com> Anil Hingorani <ahi...@etsd.ml.com> writes:
>ke...@iag.net wrote:
>> better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
>> an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
>
>NO! Don't agree with you here. Singing well should be the only criteria.
I will go with Ketan here. For example Gangubai Hangal at 80+ and Jagmohan
(also near 80) have their voice quality as it was 10 years or 20 years back.
I believe great singers do maintain voice. IMO, Lata's voice is still sweet;
it's just that she shows aging while singing. Asha, well she is going strong
in either: voice is as good and singing - very nice.
Regards,
Snehal
>Cheers,
>Anil
Anil Hingorani
Snehal B. Oza wrote:
>
<snip>
> I will go with Ketan here. For example Gangubai Hangal at 80+ and Jagmohan
> (also near 80) have their voice quality as it was 10 years or 20 years back.
This is SO not true! Don't know about Jagmohan, but I heard Gangubai
Hangal about 5 years ago and I was really sad to hear one of my favorite
singers singing totally off-key. She knew it too and made sure she sang
very little. The young woman accompanying her did most of the singing.
> I believe great singers do maintain voice. IMO, Lata's voice is still sweet;
> it's just that she shows aging while singing. Asha, well she is going strong
> in either: voice is as good and singing - very nice.
>
Ageing is a natural phemomenon - nothing to do with greatness. Asha's
voice too sounds aged. The difference is that Lata had stopped her
'riyaz' when she almost quit movie singing in the late 80s and hence
lost the mastery she had over her voice where as Asha still sings very
well. In that respect, I will accept that Lata is to blame for letting
her fans down. She should have just stuck with her decision to quit
and not made a come back with 'maine pyar kiya'. Having said that, I
am still happy that she sang 'dil hoom hoom' and 'paani paani re' -
no other voice would have been the same - atleast for me:-)
Cheers,
Anil
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:41:45 -0500, "Surajit A. Bose" <bos...@nd.edu>
wrote:
>ke...@iag.net wrote:
>
>> Similarly why can't a simple test be run on Lata/Asha? Is there any song that
>> they both have sung independently, and not as a duet. This would exclude
>
>Why *NOT* use the duets as a test? Why is a tandem song better than a
>duet to judge the issue?
>>
I am just curious if songs in a different language would count. I mean
if you compare the Aradhana songs bengali and hindi version, would
that be ok?;)))
regards, siddhartha
Siddhartha Duttagupta
On 1 Jul 1997 00:10:33 GMT, Ashok (Ashok) wrote:
>In article <33B7E1F0...@etsd.ml.com>, ahi...@etsd.ml.com says...
>>Salil, the die-hard LATAian, wanted Lata for Vivekananda but, according
>>to what I have read, she did not bother to return his calls and he was
>>very saddened by that.
>Raju Bharatan's take on it is that from the mid-1980s onward, Lata
>wasn't confident of being able to sing a Salil Choudhury composition,
>and started dodging him.
There were rumors that Lata intentionally dumped Salilda in favor of
her brother Hridaynath. Wonder why she had to armtwist people since
Hridaynath wsa already a luminary in the Marathi filmworld? Salilda
was quite disheartened by this given their long and fruitful
relationship. Apparently friendship is only as long as interests are
served;))
regards, siddhartha
"arunabha"__<asroy@midway.uchicago.edu"
>>
>
>Ageing is a natural phemomenon - nothing to do with greatness. Asha's
>voice too sounds aged. The difference is that Lata had stopped her
>'riyaz' when she almost quit movie singing in the late 80s and hence
>lost the mastery she had over her voice where as Asha still sings very
>well. In that respect, I will accept that Lata is to blame for letting
>her fans down. She should have just stuck with her decision to quit
>and not made a come back with 'maine pyar kiya'. Having said that, I
>am still happy that she sang 'dil hoom hoom' and 'paani paani re' -
>no other voice would have been the same - atleast for me:-)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Anil
I agree especially with your last sentiment. I hope Asha and Lata do not retire
from the scene . It is clear that even in the wake of their aging voice
s, their songs are still appreciated by us , and sometimes are more popular
and endearing than the modern fare dished out continuously. There could be
many reasi=ons: one, they are great singers, who'll beat the present lot
(most of them anyway)anyday in their vocal abilities , aging or no aging
two, we have a ceratin soft corner for them and are willing to accept slips
now and then due to age( bhool chook leni deni :-) ?) although we shall
wax eloquent about Urdu pron., kheti et al. But what is prob. another reason
is that due to their exceptional qualifications, MD's will feel responsible to
create good tunes for them and not any riff raff. Further, it will make good
ol' lyricists like Gulzar work for them , in short, their excellence of
standards will necissitate an overall excellence of standards in the other
areas too of lyrics/ music/ (maybe even pronunciation- Dilip K might be invited
to be the judge) . And all this will result in improved quality music, as eve
a Lata with a failing voice has proved in paani paani re.
Imagining an Indian film industry with these singers retired is as diffcult for
me to iomagine as A Times of India newspaper with no more of Laxman's cartoons
if Laxman retires.
Cheers,
Arunabha
SSS
A good comparison would be "Kuch na kaho". Lata's version in the movie and
Asha's version on Rahul & I. Asha's rendition is by far better in terms of
vocal ability and expressiveness. Lata's version is very shrill whereas
Asha's sounds full bodied. You can almost tell from what part of their body
they are singing. Lata sounds nasal especially on the higher notes. Asha
sings from her lungs like most accomplished Western singers. Another good
song is their duet from "Shaan"..(Mitwa).. Asha sounds a lot better. In fact
next to Asha, Lata voice sounds very thin and hesitant in this song. When
Asha does "Kuch na kaho" live it is simply superb. She really puts her all
into it. When I see Lata singing live, it seems very mechanical as if she is
consciously trying to hit every note and not necessarily being relaxed and
spontanious.
SS
Anil Hingorani
Here goes another Asha fan comparing Lata of TODAY with Asha! In fact,
you could substitute Asha with the Alkas and Kavitas and they would
also win hands down against Lata. That is not saying much about Asha's
abilities.
Anil
Pradeep Dubey
She was also, I am told, the first non-family member to arrive Calcutta,
after hearing the news "The Genius was no more".
Pradeep
|>
|> regards, siddhartha
|>
hsuv...@adobe.com
In article <5pa520$4...@scel.sequent.com>,
sne...@sequent.com (Snehal B. Oza) wrote:
>
> In <33B7D355...@etsd.ml.com> Anil Hingorani <ahi...@etsd.ml.com>
writes:
>
> >ke...@iag.net wrote:
>
> >> better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
> >> an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
> >
> >NO! Don't agree with you here. Singing well should be the only criteria.
>
> (also near 80) have their voice quality as it was 10 years or 20 years back.
> it's just that she shows aging while singing. Asha, well she is going strong
> in either: voice is as good and singing - very nice.
>
> Snehal
>
No way. Losing voice is no criteria to judge any one in any field. It is a
natural process. However greatest a singer is, can't fight the nature.
What will you say off Asha after 10 years when you compare her against
alka or kavitha?
L. Sivaramakrishnan became an inch or two taller and lost all his magical
leg spin we have seen down under in 1984.
I am yet to see a powerful argument in favour of Asha.
-Harish
SSS
What's wrong with comparing Lata today with Asha today? I still believe Lata
is great today. In fact songs like "Pani Pani re" from Maachis shows that she
still has the ability to duplicate her earlier abilities. I guess having seen
both in concert several times I have to love Asha. She has a very warm and
human quality with a great sense of humor. Has anyone listened to Sargam wuth
Asha ans Adnan .. ? This album was recorded a few years ago and was banned
from being pklayed in Pakistan. The Asha songs on this album are really good.
She sings closer to the microphone and there is less reverb.
Nitin Sharma
Snehal B. Oza (sne...@sequent.com) wrote:
: >> better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
: >> an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
: >
: >NO! Don't agree with you here. Singing well should be the only criteria.
: I will go with Ketan here. For example Gangubai Hangal at 80+ and Jagmohan
: (also near 80) have their voice quality as it was 10 years or 20 years back.
: I believe great singers do maintain voice. IMO, Lata's voice is still sweet;
Completely disagree! The test of greatness is surely the ability
to sing well over a 'reasonable' period. That reasonable period
can not be a few months or a couple of years. One agrees with
Ketan on this point. But to extend that period to decades is simply
asking for too much.
How can anyone expect Lata of her 20's to be the same as the LAta
of 60's ?! Just because she can't sing that well at this age doesnt
mean she loses her claim to greatness.
Its just like saying Bjon Borg wasn't great because see how awful
he plays now, or that Carl Lewis won't be a great athlete if he cant run
100m in 9.8s when he is 60!!
The fact is ageing is a natural phenomenon which affects all of us mortal
beings in real, physical ways. The inability to fight this natural
process has nothing to do with 'greatness' (or the lack of it).
And about Gangubai Hangal, Snehal's comment is so untrue. She
sounds awful these days but that in no way diminshes her greatness
she achieved in earlier years of her life.
-nitin
Unknown
In article <8678913...@dejanews.com>, hsuv...@adobe.com says...
>> better singer. Isn't the maintenance of one's original(prime years) voice
>> >> an important aspect in determining who is better over a period of time?
>> >
>> >NO! Don't agree with you here. Singing well should be the only criteria.
>>
>> I will go with Ketan here. For example Gangubai Hangal at 80+ and Jagmohan
>> (also near 80) have their voice quality as it was 10 years or 20 years back.
>> I believe great singers do maintain voice. IMO, Lata's voice is still sweet;
>> it's just that she shows aging while singing. Asha, well she is going strong
>> in either: voice is as good and singing - very nice.
>> Snehal
>>
>
>No way. Losing voice is no criteria to judge any one in any field. It is a
>natural process. However greatest a singer is, can't fight the nature.
>What will you say off Asha after 10 years when you compare her against
>alka or kavitha?
True! Aging and losing your voice is a natural process, but why are two
different yardsticks used for Lata and Asha? Asha after all is only a few years
younger than Lata, and has sung as many if not more songs--all languages
included. When Lata sings badly today, one promptly hears, "Oh she is old, and
one must praise her for even being able to sing this much...". Now, when Asha
sings, nothing of the sort is ever heard. Is this because Asha does not sing
badly even at this age? The public has the image of a Lata as a 50's and 60's
singer, while Asha is supposed to be a 70's or an 80's singer, and is therefore
expected to have a few years left in her voice, which allows her to sing even
today, and therefore she does not deserve the praise accorded to Lata. One,
should start treating them both as singers of the same era, and then see who has
survived.
When it comes to comparing Lata/Asha to Alka/Kavita, the question that comes up
is, Is it fair to compare the former two to the latter two? Yes and No. One
should not compare Lata/Asha of the 40's-70's era to Alka/Kavita of the
80's-90's, but at the same time why shy away from comparing L/A to A/K from the
80's-90's? After all, L/A are in the fray even today, only because of a lot of
various factors. One is their own confidence to sing even at this age, two is
the confidence of the MD's who give them the songs. L/A don't need to prove
anything, and if at all they are still singing, they are doing it only because
of their own desires or needs, be it for money, fame, glory or due to public
tastes, which might put them as the best singers even today. I don't think
either L or A deserve to be judged with a dash of pity for their age in 1997.
Saying "Lata sings--despite her age" is as weak a crutch as saying "Asha has the
enthusiasm to try newer musical styles--despite her age". Using age as an
excuse to gloss over their shortcomings, makes it sound as if they must be
defended at all costs, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. If that
were so, I say, recall Bradman or Borg. They would still be the best players.
They could have retired, gracefully, like MannaD or Talat, accepting that a)
they cannot sing anymore or b) they cannot adapt to newer forms of music and
hence there is no market for them. They would then have remained enshrined in
public memory as great singers of the 50's-60's. In short, if you do decide to
step into the mud-pit don't expect to come out spotless.
>L. Sivaramakrishnan became an inch or two taller and lost all his magical
>leg spin we have seen down under in 1984.
So did Tendulkar, but he still manages to middle the ball as well as he did
whether he was age 16 or age 20. This is why the 2 are'nt spoken of in the same
breath.
>I am yet to see a powerful argument in favour of Asha.
Arguments are aplenty. There however is no compelling evidence to show her as
the greatest. But neither is there any for Lata.
New topic of discussion please! :) How about SDB < or > RDB? :))
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)--Happy Kalyan? :)
neha_desai
This whole post is so ridiculous it does not even deserve a reply. But
since it undermines Lata's greatness, I must speak up.
In article <5pggqs$i...@drn.zippo.com>, Ketan says...
>today, and therefore she does not deserve the praise accorded to Lata. One,
>should start treating them both as singers of the same era, and then see whohas
>survived.
Yes, try comparing Lata and Asha of the 40s, 50s and 60s. Lata even then
occupies the first 20 spots and Asha must be somewhere lower in the ladder
of success.(okay okay..exaggeration..but the first 5 spots for sure:))
The question is not who survived, the question is who sings better and
that the songs of yesteryears have proved.
>When it comes to comparing Lata/Asha to Alka/Kavita, the question that comes up
>is, Is it fair to compare the former two to the latter two? Yes and No. One
>should not compare Lata/Asha of the 40's-70's era to Alka/Kavita of the
>80's-90's, but at the same time why shy away from comparing L/A to A/K from the
>80's-90's? After all, L/A are in the fray even today, only because of a lot of
Give me a break!!..how can you compare a voice in 30s(AY and KK) to a voice in
60s(LM and AB)!! It is stupid to even suggest that!!
>I don't think
>either L or A deserve to be judged with a dash of pity for their age in 1997.
>Saying "Lata sings--despite her age" is as weak a crutch as saying "Asha hasthe
>enthusiasm to try newer musical styles--despite her age". Using age as an
>excuse to gloss over their shortcomings, makes it sound as if they must be
>defended at all costs, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Well, everyone ages...so no one pities them for their age!! And neither
is it an excuse. It is a _reason_ (which is much different from an _excuse_!)
to their failing voice quality and control.
>They could have retired, gracefully, like MannaD or Talat, accepting that a)
>they cannot sing anymore or b) they cannot adapt to newer forms of music and
MannaD and Talat didnt retire...they were forced to.
>hence there is no market for them. They would then have remained enshrined in
>public memory as great singers of the 50's-60's.
Nothing can take away from Lata or even Asha for that matter, the glory
they earned. Even Lata fans who do not appreciate her voice in the 70s,
80s and 90s are her fans because of her singing pre-60s. Both the sisters
will be forever known as great singers with different venues of talent.
>In short, if you do decide to step into the mud-pit don't expect to come out
>>spotless.
I fail to see any relevance of this quotations!
>Arguments are aplenty. There however is no compelling evidence to show her as
>the greatest. But neither is there any for Lata.
For Lata, you dont need evidence. It is a fact that cannot be changed:)
--
Neha
---------------------------------------------------------
copying Sami's signature :
Achhon ko bura saabit karna duniya puraani aadaat hai...
and now one of my own:) :
kuchh tou log kahenge...logon ka kaam hai kehna...
---------------------------------------------------------
Nitin Sharma
ke...@iag.net (Ketan) wrote:
:
: >I am yet to see a powerful argument in favour of Asha.
:Arguments are aplenty. There however is no compelling evidence to show
: her as the greatest. But neither is there any for Lata.
The songs, my dear Watson, her songs!
Go listen to them once again. Particularly, the ones before '65.
: New topic of discussion please! :) How about SDB < or > RDB? :))
Ah, looking for an easy topic? So desperate to win an argument?
How about RDB vs. Bappi Lahiri? And I will pitch in for Bappi.
Happy?
-nitin
Ketan
In article <ECwJx...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, ni...@cs.washington.edu
says...
>
>ke...@iag.net (Ketan) wrote:
>:
>: >I am yet to see a powerful argument in favour of Asha.
>
>:Arguments are aplenty. There however is no compelling evidence to show
>: her as the greatest. But neither is there any for Lata.
>
> The songs, my dear Watson, her songs!
>
>Go listen to them once again. Particularly, the ones before '65.
Sorry, I should have said conclusive evidence not compelling. :) My question
again--Is there any way in which one can prove that Lata or Asha did sing better
than the other without resorting to biases or subjective opinions? It's a
question of preference of style(Lata's pronounciations, delivery of song, voice
control) over statistics(Asha being able to sing better than Lata if you take
their entire career of say, 50 years). Since Lata comes out poorer in the
statistics department for obvious reasons, one is left to prove, if Asha can
compete suitably in the style department. If the answer is yes, you have your
better singer. I know, I know, easier said than done isn't it? :)
>: New topic of discussion please! :) How about SDB < or > RDB? :))
>
> Ah, looking for an easy topic? So desperate to win an argument?
>How about RDB vs. Bappi Lahiri? And I will pitch in for Bappi.
Sorry, case cannot be admitted in court, on the grounds of "No Contest". One
does not compare the LoRD to mere mortals. Case closed! :)
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
Nitin Sharma
Ketan wrote:
: >
: > The songs, my dear Watson, her songs!
: >
: >Go listen to them once again. Particularly, the ones before '65.
: Sorry, I should have said conclusive evidence not compelling. :) My question
: again--Is there any way in which one can prove that Lata or Asha did sing better
: than the other without resorting to biases or subjective opinions? It's a
This whole business of music appreciation is itself subjective.
You don't have the Euclidean Geometry style proofs here.
But propositions can still be made which would go *almost*
uncontested. Comparisons can be made which are decidable one way
or the other almost compellingly (or conclusively, if you will).
Like, KK > Sanu. Bade Ghulam Ali Khan > say Pt Jasraj.
Asha,Geeta > Anuradha Paudwal. Saigal > everybody else.
And so on..
And may we humbly suggest that Lata > anybody else also falls
in this category?
: question of preference of style(Lata's pronounciations, delivery of song, voice
: control) over statistics(Asha being able to sing better than Lata if you take
: their entire career of say, 50 years). Since Lata comes out poorer in the
Again, as so many people have said before, comparing careers for a
period of 50 years just doesn't make sense. Lets not go over that
once again.
No amount of even besura-singing by Lata of 80's and 90's can negate
the brilliance of what Lata sang before '65. (this '65 cutoff is sort
of arbitrary, but somewhere around then).
And the point is, no one even came close to that standard. Not
in the 50's. Not in the 90's.
: >: New topic of discussion please! :) How about SDB < or > RDB? :))
: >
: > Ah, looking for an easy topic? So desperate to win an argument?
: >How about RDB vs. Bappi Lahiri? And I will pitch in for Bappi.
: Sorry, case cannot be admitted in court, on the grounds of "No Contest". One
: does not compare the LoRD to mere mortals. Case closed! :)
You seem to have missed the point. Let me be more explicit.
Is there any more of a contest between SDB and RDB ??
-nitin
Krishnan
hi,
I entirely agree with you guys when you say that it is difficult
to say that one singer is better than the other especially if the
singers have diverse singing traits lika Lata and Asha. Asha supporters
have long argued her versatality as her key to the top slot while Lata's
admirers have based their claims on her voice and the ethereal quality
that she gives to renderings.
I personally feel that given all the factors, Lata is by far the
best female singer India has ever produced. You could compare renderings
of songs portraying each emotion of the 2 singers. For ex. if you have
noticed, Lata avoids explicit variations to indicate pathos in a song
unlike Asha, SPB, Rafi and Janaki. Many times when a simple song needs
to be rendered, Asha unnecessarily adds variations thereby sometimes
spoiling the effect of the song itself. If anyone is interested in
discussing the subtleties of singing I would be very glad to
reciprocate.
Asam
Krishnan
hi,
I entirely agree with you guys when you say that it is difficult
to say that one singer is better than the other especially if the
singers have diverse singing traits lika Lata and Asha. Asha supporters
have long argued her versatality as her key to the top slot while Lata's
admirers have based their claims on her voice and the ethereal quality
that she gives to renderings.
I personally feel that given all the factors, Lata is by far the
renderings portraying various emotions of both the singers. For ex. if
you have noticed, she avoids explicit variations to indicate pathos in a
needs to be rendered, Asha unnecessarily adds variations thereby
sometimes spoiling the effect of the song itself. If anyone is
reciprocate.
Asam
Arunabha
Hi ,
> I entirely agree with you guys when you say that it is difficult
>to say that one singer is better than the other especially if the
>singers have diverse singing traits lika Lata and Asha. Asha supporters
>have long argued her versatality as her key to the top slot while Lata's
>admirers have based their claims on her voice and the ethereal quality
>that she gives to renderings.
> I personally feel that given all the factors, Lata is by far the
>best female singer India has ever produced. You could compare renderings
>of songs portraying each emotion of the 2 singers. For ex. if you have
>noticed, Lata avoids explicit variations to indicate pathos in a song
>unlike Asha, SPB, Rafi and Janaki. Many times when a simple song needs
>to be rendered, Asha unnecessarily adds variations thereby sometimes
>spoiling the effect of the song itself. If anyone is interested in
>discussing the subtleties of singing I would be very glad to
>reciprocate.
>
>Asam
Hi,
This topic just does not seem to die out :-)
I think since you agree that music taste is subjective, there si no need to try
and prove that Lata < Asha or Lata > asha or Lata = Asha, to you.
We have amicably agreed to disagree on that one.
But i would like to disagree that lata is the best singer India has ever
produced. I'm sue Lata is one of the best, if we consider the film industry ,
but if we are talking of classical and other forms of music as well, it is
obvious that such a position of "best" is difficult to attach to one single
person. So, I assume you mean best in the film industry.
And here subjectivity comes in full-fledged. So, while it may be true that Lata
is the most popular / prosperous film playback (I don't know if it is true) I'm
sure a lot(like me) will say instead Asha others will say Geeta Dutt, etc etc.
Anyway the point that you brought up that was interesting was the issue of not
"intrducing explicit variations to portray the pathos" . I want to ask, what's
wrong with portarying emotion in a song explicitly . I mean, you don't have to
boo hoo it out there, but then all of the music directors who aspired to make
their singers emote while singing were breaking their backs over an undesirable
thing ! I fully know why you have brought this up in the context of Lata though,
she has never been able to emote "explicitly" even when the song demanded it.
Let me mention that i have liked many of her implicit renditions as well, but
not because of her "implicit emoting" as you would cal it but because of the
sweetness of her voice. The emotion that she could not bring was completely
neglected just because of her impeccable voice, pre- 1965. I doubt if there is
any lover of Hindi film music who will disagree that Lata's 1965 voice was
excellent.
Asha's voice on the other hand, has a different appeal. (in my case, a stronger
appeal). It has unmistakable passion , coupled with a good technical command
which can effortlessly do a range of songs / emotions. True, versatility is her
forte , but for me, it is not that which is the key attraction: it is simply her
voice. When I began to hear Asha seriously about 6 years ago (till then being a
Lata fan) it was as though her voice wove a spell , a nasha one may call it. In
fact in her early songs she has dispalyed capacity for both the thin sweet "lata
-kind of " voice as well as one with more vazan for doing ghazals , clasical -
based heavy numbers, as well as sentimental , emotion-laden
songs.
What i disagree with you on is the fact that asha puts in unnecessary variations
(some have called it harkat) in simple songs , thereby ruining it . Personally,
I appreciate that very part of it: even simple hero- heroine songs are given
thate xtra touch of flavour with a harkat thrown in here and there. Further
more, why is asha blamed with doing it. Surely it is the md's tune not Asha's,
and if the md was not happy with the tune he could have always ordered a retake
? (And, since it was Asha he was up agains and not Lata, he could have asked for
a retake without the fear of a threat like " i'll never sing for you again" :-)
)
Yes, I know some people will now say : The md's gave up on asha- they knew she
wasn't capable of better - but surely not doing a harkat is easier than doing
one ?:-)
Anyway, it's subjective opinion, so I do not feel it surprising that some do not
appreciate the harkats thrown in for good measaure in Asha's performances.
On the issue of Asha's live performance being a disappointment, while I am sad
with the outcome as you reported it, it is utterly believable. The reason is i
have the recording of one of her live programmes way back in the 80's and even
that was quite unimpressive. Call it bad music quality or recording, nayway her
rendition of Raat akeli hai made me want to throw my arms up in despair.
Probably live concerts are not as good as the real thing, complete with studio
editing, takes and retakes etc. Coupled with the fact that Asha is old, now .
Regards,
Arunabha
Ramesh Hariharan
Nitin Sharma <ni...@cs.washington.edu> wrote in article
<ECqs...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>...
> Its just like saying Bjon Borg wasn't great because see how awful
> he plays now, or that Carl Lewis won't be a great athlete if he cant run
> 100m in 9.8s when he is 60!!
Sure ... if they continue calling themselves professionals at that time,
they would be expected to maintain a certain standard or bow out
gracefully. She wouldn't be compared with Kavitha Krishnamoorthy or Asha's
singing in the 90's if she was retired.
> -nitin
I don't think anyone is debating her greatness during her prime years, but
all the same she should have stopped singing long ago to avoid staining her
image.
Ramesh
Nitin Sharma
Ramesh Hariharan (rh...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Nitin Sharma <ni...@cs.washington.edu> wrote in article
:
: > Its just like saying Bjon Borg wasn't great because see how awful
: > he plays now, or that Carl Lewis won't be a great athlete if he cant run
: > 100m in 9.8s when he is 60!!
: Sure ... if they continue calling themselves professionals at that time,
: they would be expected to maintain a certain standard or bow out
: gracefully. She wouldn't be compared with Kavitha Krishnamoorthy or Asha's
: singing in the 90's if she was retired.
A very valid point, Ramesh!
But unfortunately, it has little to do with the original issue.
The point made was that Asha is better than Lata because (one of the)
tests of greatness is that an artist should be able to perform over
extended period of time and that Asha has held her voice even at this
age, whereas Lata sounds really jaded. The borg analogy was in
response to that.
That Lata compares unfavorably with singers of today, or that she
should have gracefully retired never was the issue (on this thread).
As an aside, now that you bring up the issue of adhering to a "certain
standard", let me voice my opinion on this.
The only standard Lata (even of the 90's) ever failed to meet is
the one set by herself years ago. She is still miles ahead of
Kavitas, Anuradha P's, Alkas and what have you's of today.
: all the same she should have stopped singing long ago to avoid staining her
: image.
I agree completely. I wish she did!
-nitin
Pradeep Dubey
Ramesh Hariharan (rh...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: all the same she should have stopped singing long ago to avoid staining her
: image.
May be yes, but is it clear how long ago. There are clearly some (at least
on RMIM) who only love her pre-1965 (or even earlier!) voice. So they
would have stopped her then. And that would have taken away 99% of my Lata
favorites. Some would have stopped her after another decade at 75, some at 1985 ...
some at 1995 ...
Pradeep
Krishnan
Very good point Nitin. I agree with you in your assessment of Lata's
voice. It was a blunder on her part to comeback in full steam in 1989
after sort of receding to the background between 1985 and 89. She should
have remained that way singing only selected few songs. But to say that
she is still far better than Anuradha, Kavitha and Alka is glorifying
her a bit too much. Lata is no doubt the greatest singer India has ever
produced but definitely the present day Lata lags the pack of leading
singers by a significant margin. The sooner she quits the better it is
for her. I would say that some of the songs (maybe one in ten) sung by
Anuradha in her tributes to various music directors are in fact better
than Lata's originals.
As regards the comparison between Lata and Asha, I without doubt
vote for Lata. To say that Asha maintained her voice better than Lata is
fine but it would not be appropriate to say that she is better because
of this reason. With due respects to Asha and her fans (me included), I
have almost never been moved by Asha's songs the way I have been by
Lata's songs. I am in fact a bit surprised whenever this argument ensues
because Lata is in fact far better than Asha in some respects and
slightly better in others. The only place where she lags is in Cabaret
songs. Apart from that she is just too good.
Asam
Krishnan
Krishnan
Anil Hingorani
Hi Asam,
Krishnan wrote:
>
<snip>
> for her. I would say that some of the songs (maybe one in ten) sung by
> Anuradha in her tributes to various music directors are in fact better
> than Lata's originals.
WOW! STOP SAYING SUCH THINGS!!!!!!!! Which of the songs that Anuradha
has done is better than Lata's original????????? Can you name one????
Anuradha just is not good enough to do so:-):-)
But, you are a Lata fan:-), so I'll stop screaming. Compare Lata with
singers of her caliber (like Asha B.) as much as you want, but
please spare us the torture of comparing her with the likes of
Anuradha Paudwal. That is a sacrilage. What is happening to RMIM?:-(
Cheers,
Anil
Asam
>
>
> Yes, I do agree. In fact Asam states 2 inequalities :
> 1) Lata > Asha
> 2) Some of anuradha paudwal 's songs > Lata's
> original
>
> implying in turn, that,
>
> Some of Anuradha > Asha.
>
You seemed to have taken a formal course in logic.But let me point out a
basic flaw in your argument. I said one in ten songs were sung better by
Anuradha than Lata. Would that make her a better singer than Lata? What
about the remaning 90% of the songs?
Well, the best equation would be
Lata > Asha > Anuradha > the rest (Kavitha, Alka,
Sadhana)
I don't think the difference between any 2 groups above would
warrant a >> because the difference isn't really so much.
> Why do Lata fans have so much trouble accepting the fact that there
> are others
> for whom Asha rules, i wonder ?:-)
>
As Neha has rightly pointed out, a few people's claims as to Asha's
supremacy wouldn't change the basic fact that Lata is inarguably the
best. That equation does not change even if Asha manages to win the
Grammy award this year. To say that Lata is good because of her voice is
a great insult to this maginificent singer. Her range, voice modulation,
finesse, pristine quality of her renditions etc. etc. etc. is unmatched
to this date. According to me Asha should consider herself lucky to be
even compared to Lata for the top slot. She is undoubtedly good but just
falls several steps behind her elder sister. Think of the songs for any
emotion and almost always you end up in a Lata song and very rarely with
an Asha song. Not that Asha has shortage of songs for any particular
emotion. Numbers wise she has sung more songs than Lata in hindi films.
As I pointed out earlier Asha beats Lata when it comes to Cabaret songs
and that's about it.
> Lastly,
> "Hain aur bhi duniya mein kalakaar bahut achhe,
> Kahte hain ke Asha ka hai andaaz-e-gaayan aur "
>
Good qoute. But they alone wouldn't manage to catapult Asha to the top
slot.
> Regards,
> Arunabha
Asam
neha_desai
In article <5qm5lu$k...@drn.zippo.com>, "Arunabha" says...
>Why do Lata fans have so much trouble accepting the fact that there are others
>for whom Asha rules, i wonder ?:-)
Please wonder no more...
Lata fans do accept that "to each his/her own". But to say that
Asha>Lata is like saying the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.
Everyone is entitled to their tastes cause not everyone can have the
same taste but to distort facts is not a good project:)
And the fact is that you can like Asha but that does not make her
the best(best for you maybe but not just best):)
--
Neha
-------------------------------------------------------------
tu kaun hai tera naam hai kya...sita bhi yahan badnaam huyi..
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjeev Kumar
Neha, Desai wrote:
>
> Please wonder no more...
> Lata fans do accept that "to each his/her own". But to say that
> Asha>Lata is like saying the sun rises in the west and sets in the
> east. Everyone is entitled to their tastes cause not everyone can
> have the same taste but to distort facts is not a good project:)
:0) :0) Funny! This certainly looks like a bait and I can't believe
I am taking it! I think every body agrees to the fact :
if (yyyy < 1970)
Lata > Asha;
else
Asha > Lata;
If Lata was the best in the 80s, then she wouldn't've sung those
songs in EK duje Ke Liye (Hum Bane Tum bane), Painter babu etc.
During the same time Asha was crooning away to glory in films
like Umrao Jaan.
>
> And the fact is that you can like Asha but that does not make her
> the best(best for you maybe but not just best):)
Anybody with a logical ear :-) would agree that Asha is much better
than Lata at this point.
Sanjeev
*****************************************************************
* Sanjeev Kumar *
* e-mail:san...@lucent.com *
* "So I walk up on high, *
* And I step to the edge, To see my world below. *
* And I laugh at myself, *
* As the tears roll down, 'Cause 'tis the world I know." *
* -- Collective S.@.U.L 1995 *
*****************************************************************
Surajit A. Bose
Asam wrote:
> As Neha has rightly pointed out, a few people's claims as to Asha's
> supremacy wouldn't change the basic fact that Lata is inarguably the
> best. That equation does not change even if Asha manages to win the
> Grammy award this year. To say that Lata is good because of her voice is
> a great insult to this maginificent singer. Her range, voice modulation,
> finesse, pristine quality of her renditions etc. etc. etc. is unmatched
> to this date. According to me Asha should consider herself lucky to be
> even compared to Lata for the top slot. She is undoubtedly good but just
> falls several steps behind her elder sister. Think of the songs for any
> emotion and almost always you end up in a Lata song and very rarely with
> an Asha song. Not that Asha has shortage of songs for any particular
> emotion. Numbers wise she has sung more songs than Lata in hindi films.
> As I pointed out earlier Asha beats Lata when it comes to Cabaret songs
> and that's about it.
Question: Why is it that asserting Lata's supremacy is considered just a
statement of fact, while asserting Asha's is considered a hollow claim?
It's a common ideological tactic to hold that one's own opinions are
natural and correct--indisputable, objective facts--while contrary
opinions are merely subjective or polemical. Plenty of Lata supporters
on RMIM use this tactic regularly, and Asam's latest post is just one
example; I can think of two others who have used the same ploy recently.
It's time those of us who find Asha to be more talented than her
overrated sister stopped letting Lata supporters get away with this
ploy; it's time we called them on it.
-s
Sanjeev Kumar
Asam wrote:
>
> As Neha has rightly pointed out, a few people's claims as to Asha's
> supremacy wouldn't change the basic fact that Lata is inarguably the
> best. That equation does not change even if Asha manages to win the
> Grammy award this year.
Jeez!This is a latest "Mod" in this argument of Lata v/s Asha.
I don't understand this "fact" thing! Who has established it
as a fact? You? or ppl like you? If we say that AshaB is the
best, it is just our opinion and if you ppl say (I don't think
you ppl are no different than we are) Lata is the best, it is
a fact. I feel like (painfully!) quoting a Kader Khan dialogue
of some movie, "Tumhara khoon, khoon hai aur hamara khoon, pani?"
"Aap kahen tho Fact hai, aur hum kahen tho opinion hai?"
Whats the catch here?
A fact is something that is known to have happened or to be true.
All others are mere opinions.
G'bye,
FatK9
Lata fans have been taking WAAAAAAY too much licence with this
fact/opinion thing...Get a CLUE! Whatever the hell happened to IMHO's?
Getting a little presumptious, are we? :-)
To say Asha is better than Lata is neither stating fact nor distorting
it...On that note, I say Asha ROCKS my world! You can tell me all you want
that Lata's emotions are better Asha's...misguided me, I just won't listen
to you :-)
btw, I listened to some of Lata's songs from THE OLD DAYS
(1950's) - her voice sounds GORGEOUS...
but ASHA rocks my world - I tell people, if I had to choose one playback
voice for my girlfriend, my mom, my sister, and my grandma, I would cast
my vote for Ms. Bhosle...
Sanjeev (bhi kehta hai ke Asha ka hai andaaz-e-gaayan aur)
Ramabhadran
Asam
Hi Sanjeev and other fans of Asha,
> :0) :0) Funny! This certainly looks like a bait and I can't believe
> I am taking it! I think every body agrees to the fact :
>
> if (yyyy < 1970)
> Lata > Asha;
> else
> Asha > Lata;
>
> If Lata was the best in the 80s, then she wouldn't've sung those
> songs in EK duje Ke Liye (Hum Bane Tum bane), Painter babu etc.
> During the same time Asha was crooning away to glory in film
> like Umrao Jaan.
Well, there is some confusion about fact/opinion thing and I dare
say I have added some of my own views to make it even more confusing.
Sorry about that. I take back my statement where I mentioned it as a
fact. But my friend Sanjeev's rebuttal would have had greater
credibility if he had himself refrained from mentioning his views as a
fact. No sarcasm intended.:-) Another point of interest is that
nobody is trying to hijack the newsgroup with their views. Tell me, if
all of us had agreed that Lata or Asha is the greatest, would we have
posted so many messages? It is in the difference of opinion where the
point of interest lies which in turn stimulates a healthy discussion. I
am not averse to other opinions. But let's not make this personal.
Sanjeev, I agree with you entirely when you say that today Asha is
undoubtedly better than the much jaded Lata. But though Lata was not at
her best during 1980s she was still much better than other singers and I
would say the gap between Lata and Asha reduced to a great extent until
Asha overtook.In the 80s if Asha had Umrao Jaan, Lata too had her share
with Razia Sultan, bhajans with Bhimsen Joshi and then in 1989 she had
Lekin which fetched her, her last national award. So she was on the
downhill but still had many cards to play with. She was good in Rudaali
too. So Sanjeev's statement can be modified as
if (yy < 1980)
Lata > Asha;
if (yy > 1980 && yy < 1990)
Lata ~= Asha; // read it as approximately equal
to
else // that is after 1990
Asha > Lata;
> Anybody with a logical ear :-) would agree that Asha is much better
> than Lata at this point.
>
Point taken. In Lata's defense though I would state the following.
1.All the big music directors have acknowledged Lata as the greatest
singer. That list has all the stalwarts that reads a veritable who's who
of Indian film music i.e, Shankar-Jaikishen, R.D.Burman, S.D.Burman,
Salil Choudary, Madan Mohan, Naushad, Kalyandji-Anandji,
Laxmikant-Pyarelal and lesser weights like Ravindra Jain, Ram-Laxman and
Bappi Lahiri. They did not mean disrespect to Asha in any way when they
said that. The only dissenting voice was that of O.P.Nayyar but he too
acknowledges Lata's talent as one of the greatest.
2. Then there were the classical greats like M.S. Subbalakshmi, Pt. Ravi
Shankar, Pt. Hariprasad Chaurasia, Pt. Shiv Kumar Sharma, Parveen
Sultana etc who have acknowledged Lata's greatness at various times. In
fact Pt. Ravi Shankar always used to approach Lata for his movie
compositions and many eyebrows were raised when he chose Vani Jairam
above Asha for his movie "Meera" when Lata refused to sing.
3. Then her co-singers the big 3 namely Kishore, Rafi and Mukesh who
themselves are great legends in their lifetime, have sung high praises
of Lata oftentimes saying that she is the greatest. In fact they have
mentioned it in several live performances as well. They didn't speak of
Asha the same way for reasons best known to them. Kishore always used to
receive one rupee less than Lata as a mark of respect to her and why did
he not think of Asha then? The same sentiments are echoed by Manna Dey,
Hemant Kumar, Talat Mehmood etc.
4. Then some of the other people at high places starting from Nehru who
broke down after listening to Lata's song "Aye mere waton ke logon" to
Rajiv Gandhi all have admired her for their own reasons.
5. Film directors bigwigs like Raj Kapoor, Yash Chopra, Shantaram have
showered accolades on her. Even the great art director Satyajit Ray, and
the south Indian great K. Balachander have held her in high esteem. They
could have spoken the same about Asha as well but they haven't.
6. Film actors and actresses from Dev Anand, Rajesh Khanna, Amitabh
Bhachchan, Nargis Smitha Patil ... oh this list is long..... have all
stated in their statements at various times that she is the best. The
south Indian legend Shivaji Ganeshan too says the same thing.
Well, unless there was some sort of a mass hysteria which Lata
started with some magic wand, it is reasonable to assume that what they
are saying has some substance and Lata is NOT overrated. Mind you all
the persons mentioned above are more or less experts in their own field
and they ought to know what they are saying. We can't argue with them if
they say that Lata is the greatest singer of India. I would suggest some
reading of past journals which has many critics analysing why it is what
it is. It would be a good idea to listen to some past recordings of live
performances and radio shows to verify what is stated above. Also the
biographies of Lata also act as a pointer to the same though it may be
argued that they might be biased.
I leave it here and let the discussion continue..............
Regards,
Asam
PS. Sanjeev, I like the qoute in you signature file. Good selection.
Sanjeev Kumar
Asam wrote:
>
> 1.All the big music directors have acknowledged Lata as the greatest
> 2. Then there were the classical greats like M.S. Subbalakshmi, Pt.
> 3. Then her co-singers the big 3 namely Kishore, Rafi and Mukesh who
> themselves are great legends in their lifetime, have sung high praises
> 4. Then some of the other people at high places starting from Nehru..
> 5. Film directors bigwigs like Raj Kapoor, Yash Chopra, Shantaram ...
> 6. Film actors and actresses from Dev Anand, Rajesh Khanna, Amitabh
> Bhachchan, Nargis Smitha Patil ... oh this list is long..... have all
I just have one thing to say about all these. Popular opinion has never
been a good judge of quality.
1. You ask all these people their opinions of the late Indira
Gandhi/Nehru or any other popular figure they would praise in
the same way and we (the better judges!), for sure know, they
are not really that great.
2. Another popular example is that of HAHK being greater than
Sholay, just because more people liked it (Highest grosser
et all).
3. Your posting did prove that Lata had that clout in the industry
to subdue the performances of all her competitors. May be I am
going YADDA YADDA (Yet Another Dumb Discussion Again) on the
kind of opportunities these two have got. I believe
it is really true. Lata was certainly in a position to influence,
manipulate (Go, Flame me!) and virtually control the industry.
I believe many artists have complained about this kind of
preferential/biased treatment meted out to them by the very
same people in your list. You should definitely believe
Suman Kalyanpur, Runa Lila, Anuradha Paudwal (for
her, I don't regret!), AshaB herself, and many other gifted
(and not!) artists. Ofcourse Lata also had her pre-70 truly golden
voice to back her up. So, I would believe that anybody with that
kind of clout would get the right kind of songs, breaks etc.
4. BTW, all these being written with a highly personal (mine!) point
of view. These are not facts (some are!).
SSS
There is truly no one who can truly be declared the greatest. I believe Asha
and Lata are definitely the most outstanding singers over the past decades.
What is evident however is that Asha Bhosle has preserved her voice and
technique really well. She is always exploring new styles and techniques.
That is the true sign of a gifted artist and one who would be memorable. She
has captured a new audience in the 90's and is well loved overseas. I believe
the reason she brings so much to her music is because of her problems etc.
that have been talked about.
Ashok
In article <33D01C...@nd.edu>, bos...@nd.edu says...
>
>Question: Why is it that asserting Lata's supremacy is considered just a
>statement of fact, while asserting Asha's is considered a hollow claim?
Great question, Surajit. But don't go "aaaarf"ing yet!
>It's a common ideological tactic to hold that one's own opinions are
>natural and correct--indisputable, objective facts--while contrary
>opinions are merely subjective or polemical. Plenty of Lata supporters
>on RMIM use this tactic regularly, and Asam's latest post is just one
>example; I can think of two others who have used the same ploy recently.
>It's time those of us who find Asha to be more talented than her
>overrated sister stopped letting Lata supporters get away with this
>ploy; it's time we called them on it.
>
>-s
It's a cop-out of an answer, if it is indeed meant as an answer. I
am disappointed that you took the shallow way out by going in for
a wimpy "our opinions should be taken equally seriously" formulation.
You can rephrase the question: Why can't Asha-fans use the same ploy?
Put yet another way: the thread so far has been mostly breast-beating by
Asha fans. Most of the major-league RMIMers who think highly of Lata
have stayed aloof. So, all your teeth-gnashings have produced little
effect.
It's high time you realize there is really no ploy. Lata defenders are
simply stating a well-established "social fact." Whether Lata is
overrated is irrelevant. Obviously, both are. Resist the temptation
to contend that Lata is more overrated! There are more important issues.
How about analyzing the mechanisms by which Lata's voice became some
kind of a "canon": the voice of mother India who, I suspect, is a virgin.
Ashok
Arunabha
In article <5qs0ee$6...@news2.zippo.com>, ADhar...@WorldBank.Org says...
>
>In article <33D01C...@nd.edu>, bos...@nd.edu says...
>>
>>Question: Why is it that asserting Lata's supremacy is considered just a
>>statement of fact, while asserting Asha's is considered a hollow claim?
>
>
>Great question, Surajit. But don't go "aaaarf"ing yet!
>
>
>>It's a common ideological tactic to hold that one's own opinions are
>>natural and correct--indisputable, objective facts--while contrary
>>opinions are merely subjective or polemical. Plenty of Lata supporters
>>on RMIM use this tactic regularly, and Asam's latest post is just one
>>example; I can think of two others who have used the same ploy recently.
>>It's time those of us who find Asha to be more talented than her
>>overrated sister stopped letting Lata supporters get away with this
>>ploy; it's time we called them on it.
>>
>>-s
Bravo ! I second that ! :-)
>You can rephrase the question: Why can't Asha-fans use the same ploy?
>Put yet another way: the thread so far has been mostly breast-beating by
>Asha fans. Most of the major-league RMIMers who think highly of Lata
>have stayed aloof. So, all your teeth-gnashings have produced little
>effect.
Replies : 1) I think the no. of Asha fans that have been replying too are
small compared to their total no. (this may be contested)
2) Just because the major- league Lata fans are staying out doesn't diminish the
power of OUR arguments/ views does it ? Well, anyway taht is irrelevant. I
would say the foll: Def. if we were to go by a vote of nos., it will not
surprise me in the least if Lata comes out on top (well, assuming a well-
randomized sample) . I will not refute the fact , either, that Lata is
the most popular film playback singer that India has produced. And puting
these two together , and the views of musically accomplished people who
have praised them ( Nehrus, wagehrah bahaar me jaayen) , we have to accept
that Lata (at least I do) that Lata was a phenomenon in her own right. I
think a substantial no. of asha fans have conceded Lata her golden voice in pre
- 1970 or whatever period. I have said that Lata is better in my opinion than
Rafi, KK, and other male singers . I have even said that Lata in the 90's
, if we take her best, outshines the best of the modern crop- something which
even some Lata fans disagree with. Clearly, I'm not a Lata- hater.
However. I still will not safely put an unbiased equality/ inequality
to comparisons between Lata pre- 1960 and Asha's best. In fact I would
personally rate Lata's best and Asha's best as comparable, if I aspired hard
to be an impartial and detached observer . However, if I am asked to name a
favourite (PERSONAL favourite ) I may stress , it has to be Asha.
:-) Reminds me of the so apt line by the person who said if it has to be one
voice for the mother, sister, daughter , etc. what his choice would be.
Anyway to sum up: I think Asha fans are not contesting that
Lata is the darling of the millions . Let her so be. For us, Asha is the voice
that can produce the bhajan, the ghazal, the phillum song, the semi- classical
based number, and .. ahem... the cabaret too. No one's denying any one the fact
that Lata is great . Only we prefer the underdog. And so, IN OUR HEARTS, forever
Asha RULES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards,
Arunabha.
(Dousing any flames ):-)
2
neha_desai
In article <33D139...@lucent.com>, Sanjeev says...
>3. Your posting did prove that Lata had that clout in the industry
> to subdue the performances of all her competitors. May be I am
> going YADDA YADDA (Yet Another Dumb Discussion Again) on the
> kind of opportunities these two have got. I believe
> it is really true. Lata was certainly in a position to influence,
> manipulate (Go, Flame me!) and virtually control the industry.
And pray what gave her that power? Her voice and her singing! She was
the best else all the MDs couldn't have been influenced by her. They
needn't have given a damn as to what she wanted, right? if suman, asha
etc were all so good why didnt they use them? simple they knew _only_
lata could do justice to their good compositions...baaki movies ke
ekka-dukka arbit songs ke liye they could use anyone.
btw.. i feel meena kapoor and sudha malhotra were also decent singers..
and not to forget geeta roy who remained a popular and great singer
till she lived.
> I believe many artists have complained about this kind of
> preferential/biased treatment meted out to them by the very
> same people in your list. You should definitely believe
> Suman Kalyanpur, Runa Laila, Anuradha Paudwal (for
they all lacked one thing or the other in their singing...maybe the
sweet voice, or the control or the technique. Else if you have the
ability and the voice and you put in effort, you are bound to succeed
and it is not as if they didnt try. Actually considering they have
one song in a movie full of lata songs...they have the time and energy
to put in more concentrated efforts...phir bhi...tsk tsk tsk...
> her, I don't regret!), AshaB herself, and many other gifted
> (and not!) artists. Ofcourse Lata also had her pre-70 truly golden
> voice to back her up. So, I would believe that anybody with that
> kind of clout would get the right kind of songs, breaks etc.
also i feel Asha was much better pre 80s..in her "tora man darpan.."
and "dukh aur sukh ke raaste.." kind of voice and songs...than her..
"dum maaro dum.." or "rangeela re..." kind of songs...
>4. BTW, all these being written with a highly personal (mine!) point
> of view. These are not facts (some are!).
Whatever you write is supposed to be your opinion unless you quote
someone..so this 4th point is totally unnecessary. one's post are
supposed to reflect one's opinions not anyone elses...so i feel IMOs
are totally redundant.
--
Neha
------------------------------------------------------
ghar se chale thhey ham to...khushi ki talaash mein...
gam raah mein padey thhey...wo bhi saath chal diye...
------------------------------------------------------
Nitin Sharma
Sanjeev Kumar (san...@lucent.com) wrote:
: >
: > 1.All the big music directors have acknowledged Lata as the greatest
: > singer. .....
: > 2. Then there were the classical greats like M.S. Subbalakshmi, Pt.
: > Ravi Shankar, ... who have acknowledged Lata's greatness ...
: > 3. Then her co-singers the big 3 namely Kishore, Rafi and Mukesh who
and on..
: I just have one thing to say about all these. Popular opinion has never
: been a good judge of quality.
Sanjeev, you are getting into a word trap.
Popular opinion does not mean opinion of 'popular' people.
It means opinion of the masses.
When MSS, RS, Rafi, Mukesh... the MD's profess an opinion on music
related issue, its an 'expert' opinion. (I'm cutting out Nehrus,
AB's, Khanna, etc)
Now you may argue against this proof technique (ie, proof by citing
eminent authorities), but then the arguments would have to be
different.
: 1. You ask all these people their opinions of the late Indira
: Gandhi/Nehru or any other popular figure they would praise in
Who cares about IG/Nehru/Rajiv's opinion on *music*?
: 2. Another popular example is that of HAHK being greater than
: Sholay, just because more people liked it (Highest grosser
well, shooting the wrong target again. realign your guns, pal..
: 3. Your posting did prove that Lata had that clout in the industry
: to subdue the performances of all her competitors. May be I am
It proved no such thing. All it said was 'look, here are these
knowledgeable folks, and they all said such great things about Lata,
so she must be good..'.
What clout, and where's talk of 'subduing the competitors?
You mean clout to get endorsements from such greats?
Get real!
: voice to back her up. So, I would believe that anybody with that
: kind of clout would get the right kind of songs, breaks etc.
No music director gave her their best songs because of the 'clout'
Lata had. They did so because they really believed that it was only
Lata who could do justice to the their best compositions.
Lata got the best songs because she was considered the best. Simple!
: 4. BTW, all these being written with a highly personal (mine!) point
: of view. These are not facts (some are!).
Obviously! And that's true of all posts.
When you write something, surely its *your* opinion, not your
padosi's :)
I've never quite figured out the anxiety to sprinkle IMO's and
IMHO's in posts made on rmim..
-nitin
Sanjeev Kumar
Nitin Sharma wrote:
>
> Sanjeev, you are getting into a word trap.
> Popular opinion does not mean opinion of 'popular' people.
> It means opinion of the masses.
Point taken.
>
> When MSS, RS, Rafi, Mukesh... the MD's profess an opinion on music
> related issue, its an 'expert' opinion. (I'm cutting out Nehrus,
> AB's, Khanna, etc)
I guess all these artists would've praised LataM alone and not in
comparison with AshaM. No artist does(atleast did, in the past) that.
Nobody would've said that Lata stands clearly above Asha. So, the
fact that these ppl appreciated Lata can't used to support
her superiority over Asha. I bet these artists would've praised
Asha on similar lines.
>
> : 1. You ask all these people their opinions of the late Indira
> : Gandhi/Nehru or any other popular figure they would praise in
>
> Who cares about IG/Nehru/Rajiv's opinion on *music*?
I didn't mean IG/Nehru/Rajiv's opinion on *music*. I meant their (these
popular figures - MDs, Singers etc) opinions about IG/Nehru/RG etc.
No popular figure did like to speak ill-will about other popular
figures.
> It proved no such thing. All it said was 'look, here are these
> knowledgeable folks, and they all said such great things about Lata,
> so she must be good..'.
Nobody denies the fact that lata is not good. We are talking about
comparisons here and Lata need not be better than AshaB or anybody
always!
> No music director gave her their best songs because of the 'clout'
> Lata had. They did so because they really believed that it was only
> Lata who could do justice to the their best compositions.
> Lata got the best songs because she was considered the best. Simple!
Please take my opinions with a pinch of salt (you have taken in pounds).
I don't think it is as simple as that! I believe she could command
such respect in the industry. She must have taken advantage of her
position once or twice.
> Obviously! And that's true of all posts.
> When you write something, surely its *your* opinion, not your
> padosi's :)
>
> I've never quite figured out the anxiety to sprinkle IMO's and
> IMHO's in posts made on rmim..
It is netiquette (sp?), pal! You are not here to state facts!
All you are doing here is opining and your are not the
official spokesperson on any subject. It is better to clear that
up first!
Surajit Bose
Sanjeev Kumar wrote:
> Nobody denies the fact that lata is not good.
What?! :-0
Beware of those triple negatives, pal; you've just asserted as a fact
that "Lata is not good!" Surely this sweeping judgment needs some
qualification? At least the addition of "any more" to the rest of the
sentence? ;-)
This Lata-Asha thing has turned into the Topic That Won't Die; I propose
that a formal battle be fought between the two contending but as yet
nameless camps. The first step is to come up with names for the rival
parties, on the lines of RAFIans and KKKlaners. My own suggestions for
the names: since "Lata" means "creeper," the Lata Mangeshkar followers,
under the leadership of Asam, can be called the Mangy Creeps; the Asha
Bhosle followers, under Arunabha, can naturally be the Bossy Ashes. :-)
-s
Asam
Hi Nitin,
All I can say is you stole my words. You have hit right at the
bull's eye!! Sanjeev's point is right as to the monopoly of Lata but it
was not only hers. It is usually mentioned as the monopoly of the
Mangeshkar sisters thereby including Asha too. It can be estimated that
atleast 8 out of 10 movies between 1950 and 1980 would have had one of
the 2 singing in them. But that doesn't prove that the then upcoming
singers were in anyway better than Lata or Asha. Apart from the clout
that the 2 had, sometimes it was the music director who would prefer to
have his composition sung by one of them, sometimes it is the producer
who used to demand them and then there were actresses who wanted it and
sometimes the lyricist would feel that only Lata or Asha could do
justice to his/her writings. So collectively it all ensured that no
other singer came up well into the limelight. Moreover it was the
convention that they would choose the songs of every movie they enter
and leave the rest (if at all) for other singers. It became more of a
rule after Lata resisted in futility to sing "Buddha mil gaya" in Sangam
and finally sang it only because she had signed for the movie. She
hasn't sung that song again in her life and the AIR as a mark of respect
to the great lady doesn't play that song in their broadcasts.
Well, I diverted from the topic substantially I guess. But I
thank you for an effective defense. Let the discussion continue
further...........
Asam
hsuv...@adobe.com
In article <33D01C...@nd.edu>,
bos...@nd.edu wrote:
>
> Asam wrote:
>
> > As Neha has rightly pointed out, a few people's claims as to Asha's
> > supremacy wouldn't change the basic fact that Lata is inarguably the
> > best. That equation does not change even if Asha manages to win the
> > a great insult to this maginificent singer. Her range, voice modulation,
> > finesse, pristine quality of her renditions etc. etc. etc. is unmatched
> > to this date. According to me Asha should consider herself lucky to be
> > even compared to Lata for the top slot. She is undoubtedly good but just
> > falls several steps behind her elder sister. Think of the songs for any
> > emotion and almost always you end up in a Lata song and very rarely with
> > an Asha song. Not that Asha has shortage of songs for any particular
> > emotion. Numbers wise she has sung more songs than Lata in hindi films.
> > As I pointed out earlier Asha beats Lata when it comes to Cabaret songs
> > and that's about it.
>
> statement of fact, while asserting Asha's is considered a hollow claim?
> natural and correct--indisputable, objective facts--while contrary
> opinions are merely subjective or polemical. Plenty of Lata supporters
> on RMIM use this tactic regularly, and Asam's latest post is just one
> example; I can think of two others who have used the same ploy recently.
> It's time those of us who find Asha to be more talented than her
> overrated sister stopped letting Lata supporters get away with this
> ploy; it's time we called them on it.
>
> -s
Very loose usage of the word 'overrated'. It is worser than the
usage of much maligned 'besur' in this newsgroup. There is no
tactic or ploy when we assert Lata's supremacy.
When people like Ravishankar, Sajjad, Madanmohan praised
LataM, they really meant it. These are men by themselves,
highly originals. They dont have any business of pleasing
LataM. The fact that these were motivated to compose their
best just because Lata is there to sing is more than enough
to prove who is best. The reason that we call people like
these as judges for various contests is because we respect
their opinion. It holds good for any singer whether Asha
or Kishore or Rafi.
When SPB says that he is inspired/motivated by rafi's singing,
it is really a great tribute to rafi. If someone is asked what
do you think of Kishore/Rafi, a diplomatic reply of the kind
'oh yes they are great singers' can be taken light. But not a
comment like 'I am inspired ...'.
There are so many things in Lata's singing which memsmerised
so many. She is the benchmark. Her depth is much more
valuable than Asha's breadth. When any one is in
some emotional trouble, an LM solo can give some solace.
On the otherhand when one is doing good, a rocky song
can bring more energy which may not be needed that much.
Sometimes we are tired of seeing just one person dominating
the field (Michael Jordan) and you go and reward someone else
the MVP. You will see the difference.
You can glorify Asha to whatever extent. But dont try to
downgrade the legend in the process.
-Harish
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Pradeep Dubey
In article <33D653B8...@monmouth.com>, Asam <chri...@monmouth.com> writes:
|> Hi Nitin,
|> All I can say is you stole my words. You have hit right at the
|> bull's eye!! Sanjeev's point is right as to the monopoly of Lata but it
|> was not only hers. It is usually mentioned as the monopoly of the
|> Mangeshkar sisters thereby including Asha too. It can be estimated that
|> atleast 8 out of 10 movies between 1950 and 1980 would have had one of
|> the 2 singing in them. But that doesn't prove that the then upcoming
|> singers were in anyway better than Lata or Asha. Apart from the clout
|> that the 2 had, sometimes it was the music director who would prefer to
|> have his composition sung by one of them, sometimes it is the producer
|> who used to demand them and then there were actresses who wanted it and
|> sometimes the lyricist would feel that only Lata or Asha could do
|> justice to his/her writings. So collectively it all ensured that no
|> other singer came up well into the limelight. Moreover it was the
|> convention that they would choose the songs of every movie they enter
|> and leave the rest (if at all) for other singers. It became more of a
|> rule after Lata resisted in futility to sing "Buddha mil gaya" in Sangam
|> and finally sang it only because she had signed for the movie. She
|> hasn't sung that song again in her life and the AIR as a mark of respect
|> to the great lady doesn't play that song in their broadcasts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"mark of respect"??? Is it that bad a song???
And ... is this really true?
Is the source here "STARDUST" or AIR itself?
Pradeep
Pavan Kumar Desikan
I have been resisting the temptation to jump into this thread for a long
time, mainly because the question A>B seldom leads to an answer acceptable
to all. They all(well almost all, with some exceptions like Lata > AP:)),
end in IMO A>B or IMO B>A. But this thread never dies, and I have to yield
to the temptation :(
: 2) Just because the major- league Lata fans are staying out doesn't
diminish the
: power of OUR arguments/ views does it ?
And what are the arguments? Asha now is better than Lata now? Asha sings
ghazals, cabarets, non-filmi songs, grammy songs? Does that make Asha
greater than Lata? Who is considered a greater cricketer, Don Bradman or
Kapil Dev? Note that I am not making any comparisions between Bradman,
Kapil, Lata and Asha. I just want to say that you have not presented any
arguments. Your views, yes, do remain undiminished.
: Well, anyway taht is irrelevant.
Oh! I am sorry I took the above a bit too seriously :)
: I
: would say the foll: Def. if we were to go by a vote of nos., it will not
: surprise me in the least if Lata comes out on top (well, assuming a well-
: randomized sample) . I will not refute the fact , either, that Lata is
: the most popular film playback singer that India has produced. And puting
: these two together , and the views of musically accomplished people who
: have praised them ( Nehrus, wagehrah bahaar me jaayen) , we have to
accept
: that Lata (at least I do) that Lata was a phenomenon in her own right. I
: think a substantial no. of asha fans have conceded Lata her golden voice
in pre
: - 1970 or whatever period. I have said that Lata is better in my opinion
than
: Rafi, KK, and other male singers. I have even said that Lata in the 90's
: , if we take her best, outshines the best of the modern crop- something
which
: even some Lata fans disagree with. Clearly, I'm not a Lata- hater.
And I am yet to come across a single post from a Lata fan that says that
they are Asha haters. Does that mean anything? How did Lata achieve the
popularity? One possible answer could be that in collusion with the media,
the common man was bombarded with the songs of Lata and Lata alone and thus
the media is to blame. But this explanation is far fetched. Another
explanation could be that Lata got all the good songs while Asha had to
feed on the leftovers because of Lata's clout in the industry. Again a
completely unsubstantiated and baseless speculation which I believe has to
be thrown in the nearest garbage. Incidentally this is a popular line of
"defense" used by the Asha fans --- Come up with some speculations as to
why the MDs preferred Lata over Asha and also cite some sore losers who
whined that Lata was taking away all their songs. BTW I have never come
across any article in which Asha has claimed that Lata tried to get the MDs
stop her singing. I recently posted an excerpt of an autobiography of Lata
in which she says that she never tried to stop Asha from singing. I would
rather believe the Lady herself, than some rumourmongers who cannot
substantiate their allegations.
Another grouse of mine, on a related topic, has been the maligning of
S.D.Burman. There have been numerous articles that accuse SDB of stealing
songs from his son. But this is a different topic altogether and shall be
ignored for now.
I would consider Lata innocent of all these charges until proven
guilty. Speculation without knowing the facts can lead us to some bizzare
possibilities.
: Anyway to sum up: I think Asha fans are not contesting
that
: Lata is the darling of the millions . Let her so be. For us, Asha is the
voice
: that can produce the bhajan, the ghazal, the phillum song, the semi-
classical
: based number, and .. ahem... the cabaret too. No one's denying any one
the fact
: that Lata is great . Only we prefer the underdog. And so, IN OUR HEARTS,
: forever
:
: Asha RULES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:
: Regards,
: Arunabha.
Okay. Peace.
:
: NehaDesai wrote:
: also i feel Asha was much better pre 80s..in her "tora man darpan.."
: and "dukh aur sukh ke raaste.." kind of voice and songs...than her..
: "dum maaro dum.." or "rangeela re..." kind of songs...
Well it is your opinion and you can have them. However, the song "dukh aur
sukh ke raasate", I believe, brings out one of the shortcomings of Asha. No
doubt she has a voice that can portray any kind of emotion, etc. But, she
cannot keep her imagination from running wild. Often she puts in more
emotions than necessary into a particular song, and this song is an
example. Here Sadhana is supposed to be Dev Anand's lover and would be wife
who is consoling him in the time of his difficulty. She starts of the song
okay, but very soon, I get the impression that she is singing this song not
to her would be husband, but to her three year old baby. (And I really
cannot imagine a baby understanding the lyrics, and so it makes it even
more absurd:( And please refrain from putsing Freudian fundas). And all
this because of the much touted "singing with emotions". It is not only
important to be able to sing with emotions, but you should also know the
right amount of emotion to apply to a particular song. This is what makes
me feel that Lata was better than Asha. Before you jump at my throat, let
me make it clear that I am not saying that all Asha's songs are like
this. When you sing a large number of songs, probabilistically some of them
are bound to have the right emotions, Right? :)
However, in the duets, I think Asha's imagination was kept in check by the
accompanying singer. Of course she used to do her "nakhre's" as described
in the concert review, but they were more or less within the limits. I
personally like Asha duets better than her solos.
:
: Whatever you write is supposed to be your opinion unless you quote
: someone..so this 4th point is totally unnecessary. one's post are
: supposed to reflect one's opinions not anyone elses...so i feel IMOs
^^^^^^
: are totally redundant.
Madam, how different is "I feel" from "IMO"? Isn't it redundant? :)
:
: --
: Neha
:
: Sanjeev Kumar wrote:
:
:
: Please take my opinions with a pinch of salt (you have taken in pounds).
: I don't think it is as simple as that! I believe she could command
: such respect in the industry. She must have taken advantage of her
: position once or twice.
Speculation! Speculation:(
--
Pavan Kumar Desikan
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~pkd
Any man who goes to the psychiatrist ought to have his head examined.
- Samuel Goldwyn
Unknown
In article <33D69CA0...@nd.edu>, Surajit says...
>This Lata-Asha thing has turned into the Topic That Won't Die; I propose
>that a formal battle be fought between the two contending but as yet
>nameless camps. The first step is to come up with names for the rival
>parties, on the lines of RAFIans and KKKlaners. My own suggestions for
>the names: since "Lata" means "creeper," the Lata Mangeshkar followers,
>under the leadership of Asam, can be called the Mangy Creeps; the Asha
>Bhosle followers, under Arunabha, can naturally be the Bossy Ashes. :-)
Now now, Surajit! You are letting your bias show even in this name calling, oops
name picking business. :) We in D.C., believe in setting up an independent
counsel, or a bipartisan or unbiased committee to resolve every matter at the
tax payers expense. So it would not be fair to impose the names you picked on
your tormentors. You know the name will be shortened to "Mangy" or "Creeps". :)
Very soon, you might find that being "Bossy" will reduce you to "Ashes" and your
"Asha" will turn in to 'Nirasha'. Alternatively, one could change your group's
name to "Hope" since that is what your camp wishes for anyway.
Ofcourse being as "inspired" as Anu Malik, I shall change the last line and
present the 'Ashes' with a slogan..
"Ashes to Ashes, dust to dust
If Arunabh don't get you, Surajit must"
The membership drive is on.
Ketan
Who is happy being merely a KK-Burman fan(atic)
Arunabha
(warning - long post)
Hi PKD and others,
Yours was a very interesting and balanced post- please succumb to temptation
more often :-)
>I have been resisting the temptation to jump into this thread for a long
>time, mainly because the question A>B seldom leads to an answer acceptable
>to all. They all(well almost all, with some exceptions like Lata > AP:)),
>end in IMO A>B or IMO B>A. But this thread never dies, and I have to yield
>to the temptation :(
Such are the ways of nature :-) You are completely right about the generic
outcome of this kind of debate.
>
>: 2) Just because the major- league Lata fans are staying out doesn't
>diminish the
>: power of OUR arguments/ views does it ?
>
>And what are the arguments? Asha now is better than Lata now?
No.
Asha sings
>ghazals, cabarets, non-filmi songs, grammy songs?
No.
Does that make Asha>greater than Lata?
No.
I just want to say that you have not presented any
>arguments. Your views, yes, do remain undiminished.
Well, I think our camp will present "arguments " if , say, the competence of
Asha B as a singer is called into question. However,
We are completely comfortable with
people retaining their opinions. Actually, my comment about something... not
diminishing outr arguments... was in reply to someone who said that we should
give our arguments etc. etc. in a larger group when all the big Lata fans are
present. My feeling is, we are not giving arguments for Asha > Lata, but I may
be mistaken.
To quote a wise soul on this NG, (can't remember who, I think someone said this
in the context of the KK- Rai war) : "Both are great singers . Who is greater/
greatest is a matter of personal opinion."
>: Well, anyway taht is irrelevant.
>
>Oh! I am sorry I took the above a bit too seriously :)
Hota hai, we all get carried away , when advocating our preferences, however
much we may try and stick to dispassionate observations and objectivity :-)
>: I
>And I am yet to come across a single post from a Lata fan that says that
>they are Asha haters.
Well, you have me there. I agree . But , just as some of us do not appreciatethe
"range " of emotions conveyed by Lata in some of her songs, there are also cases
of people who do not like the very sound of Asha , or her emotions or whatever.
Both of us parties I think are justified there. Possibly I was alluding to
the fact that I like both of them for specific situations/ songs as opposed to
being completely polarised in opinion, but maybe that's irrelevant.
Does that mean anything? How did Lata achieve the
>popularity? One possible answer could be that in collusion with the media,
>the common man was bombarded with the songs of Lata and Lata alone and thus
>the media is to blame.
..... more aggressive accounts of media praise and attention for Lata snipped.
Well, i did say explicitly that Lata was a great singer in her own right.
(Media hype/ overrrating etc. did not figure in that statement anywhere)
Why still rail poor ol' me ?:-( :-)
>
>Another grouse of mine, on a related topic, has been the maligning of
>S.D.Burman. There have been numerous articles that accuse SDB of stealing
>songs from his son. But this is a different topic altogether and shall be
>ignored for now.
>
>I would consider Lata innocent of all these charges until proven
>guilty. Speculation without knowing the facts can lead us to some bizzare
>possibilities.
Is industry me koi bhi doodh me dhula hua to nahin hai.(OK, Asha inclusive, in
case someone protests or doubts:-) ) I'm sure to survive in the industry one
needs power play , which both of them have doubtless employed. It's just that
more stories about lata abound - and it may well be that the reason is partially
her greater shohrat , but there must be some truth to all the tales. (How much \
I do not know - anyone's guess) One cannot even strictly blame Lata for this ,
as it's survival of the fittest - as I'm getting wholy carried away on this
issue, I'm reminded of the duwidha that Arjun faced when he found he was
up aginst his own kith and kin on the battlefield. But Krishna gave him the
green signal- go ahead) . And so Lata may have done too ...:-)
OK, back to reality.
Tha fact that MM, Salil C, and great MD's have "preferred " Lata says that Lata
is good, but I don't know if it says Lata is better in a general context.
As you alluded to yourself, I don't know whether a definite objective
A> B or B>A can be written down for such a subjective issue , unless it
is a comparison between say, Lata and say , Usha Mangeshkar/ Anuradha P.
After all, our humble opinion based on the songs Asha has sung for these MD's
shows us that (at least for us) she did great stuff when given the chance.
That's all. It was their prerogative to give the song to whoever they wanted,
a nd while one cannot question that, one wishes that it were the other way
round, no, rather more evenly balanced.
A passing thought that str7ck me is that, if in fact
the roles were reversed, viz.
conjure up a situation (even if it may be abhorrent to Lata lovers :-) ) where
Asha sang many ghazals/ cabaret numbers/ etc. etc. and Lata sang a few
O sajna barkha .., mehfil teri dil me etc. I'm sure one would then wish for
more songs to be sung by Lata. I think "the thing that is rare is coveted" is
partly at work, over here ", at least for me.
>:
>
>:
>: NehaDesai wrote:
>
>: also i feel Asha was much better pre 80s..in her "tora man darpan.."
>: and "dukh aur sukh ke raaste.." kind of voice and songs...than her..
>: "dum maaro dum.." or "rangeela re..." kind of songs...
I agree with you. Although i liked her Tanha tanha and Zara sa jhoom loo main
, I hated Dum maro dum.
>Well it is your opinion and you can have them. However, the song "dukh aur
>sukh ke raasate", I believe, brings out one of the shortcomings of Asha. No
>doubt she has a voice that can portray any kind of emotion, etc. But, she
>cannot keep her imagination from running wild. Often she puts in more
>emotions than necessary into a particular song, and this song is an
>example. Here Sadhana is supposed to be Dev Anand's lover and would be wife
>who is consoling him in the time of his difficulty. She starts of the song
>okay, but very soon, I get the impression that she is singing this song not
>to her would be husband, but to her three year old baby.
Hmmm :-) I don't know whether it sounded as if being sung to a 3-year old, but
I agree that parts of it sounded , I don't know how to put it exactly, but
somewhat detached or unnecessarily simplistic - perhaps devoid of emotion. I am
assming this is the same song as Jahaan me aisa kaun hai. Though the tune and
rhythm were also too nursery-rhyme oriented and fast paced- a more slow ghazal
like mood would probably have done better. For indtance, I believe it is rou
ghly the same tune as the happy and romantic "abhi na jaao chhodkar" which
sounds terrific with this tune. Actually before I heard the film version, I
heard her just hum the first line on the suraanjali tape, and couldn't for the
life of me figure out how this was going to get into a film song with complete
rhythm and beats. It sounded much better when she sang it slowly without music.
anyway, that's my two cents on this topic.
. It is not only
>important to be able to sing with emotions, but you should also know the
>right amount of emotion to apply to a particular song. This is what makes
>me feel that Lata was better than Asha. Before you jump at my throat, let
>me make it clear that I am not saying that all Asha's songs are like
>this. When you sing a large number of songs, probabilistically some of them
>are bound to have the right emotions, Right? :)
Right, but we'll give her more than the weight of mere probability, OK ?
:-)
>Madam, how different is "I feel" from "IMO"? Isn't it redundant? :)
>: Please take my opinions with a pinch of salt (you have taken in pounds).
>: I don't think it is as simple as that! I believe she could command
>: such respect in the industry. She must have taken advantage of her
>: position once or twice.
>
>
>Speculation! Speculation:(-
With all due respect, :-) I think it's highly possible, if you consider it
probabilistically.
:)
On the general subject of Fan club wars :
While there is no clear win or lose., I think a good outcome is the putting
up on the forum of a lot of good songs which people from either camp may be
unaware of. So, i think it's a good thing, apart from the fun it generates
(while kept in check) . Hoping for some witty person to come up with a post like
the legendary Abhay Avachat's on the inevitable outcome of a A/ B fan club war.
Regards,
Arunabha
vven...@pcocd2.intel.com
In article <5r7ssv$lke$1...@news.duke.edu>, p...@news.cs.duke.edu says...
>Well it is your opinion and you can have them. However, the song "dukh aur
>sukh ke raasate", I believe, brings out one of the shortcomings of Asha.
>No doubt she has a voice that can portray any kind of emotion, etc. But,
>she cannot keep her imagination from running wild. Often she puts in more
>emotions than necessary into a particular song, and this song is an
>example.
>
>accompanying singer. Of course she used to do her "nakhre's" as described
>in the concert review, but they were more or less within the limits. I
>personally like Asha duets better than her solos.
her book "Phule Vechita" about which you yourself posted a few days back.
Asha's shortcoming, says Lata, is her imagination which runs
wild, though she refuses to mention what she exactly means
by it.
The picturization of "Jahaan mein aisa kaun hai" is on Dev Anand who is
troubled about having to act as Nanda's husband and Sadhana, who is trying
to put his mind at peace so that he can catch atleast a wink of shut-eye as
she gently places his troubled head on her lap. Eventhough Sadhana is his
lover and would-be wife, the context here is not at all romantic. It is
actually maternal to a large extent, you would understand this if you were
a woman(that was profound! :). And if Asha could convey all this with just
her voice, then, WOW!!
Vandana.
>
>--
>Pavan Kumar Desikan
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of Intel.
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Sanjeev Kumar
Surajit Bose wrote:
>
> Sanjeev Kumar wrote:
>
> > Nobody denies the fact that lata is not good.
>
> that "Lata is not good!" Surely this sweeping judgment needs some
> qualification? At least the addition of "any more" to the rest of the
> sentence? ;-)
A Typo, bass! I meant to say that Nobody is denying the fact that
lata is good.
Sanjeev
--
*****************************************************************
* Sanjeev Kumar *
* e-mail:san...@lucent.com *
*****************************************************************
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Ikram Ahmed Khan wrote:
> you will be
> the one and not his mother, who has to maintain the house and care
> for him, like his mother did before you.
Ummm... If somebody wishes to question the political correctness of
above part, consider it changed to a suitably correct form --
something like 'lady of the house' (or is that even more politically
incorrect? :( ) or something else...
Later,
Ikram.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
vven...@pcocd2.intel.com wrote:
>
> In article <5r7ssv$lke$1...@news.duke.edu>, p...@news.cs.duke.edu says...
>
> >Well it is your opinion and you can have them. However, the song "dukh aur
> >sukh ke raasate", I believe, brings out one of the shortcomings of Asha.
> >No doubt she has a voice that can portray any kind of emotion, etc. But,
> >she cannot keep her imagination from running wild. Often she puts in more
> >emotions than necessary into a particular song, and this song is an
> >example.
> The picturization of "Jahaan mein aisa kaun hai" is on Dev Anand who is
> troubled about having to act as Nanda's husband and Sadhana, who is trying
> to put his mind at peace so that he can catch atleast a wink of shut-eye as
> she gently places his troubled head on her lap. Eventhough Sadhana is his
> lover and would-be wife, the context here is not at all romantic. It is
> actually maternal to a large extent, you would understand this if you were
> a woman(that was profound! :). And if Asha could convey all this with just
> her voice, then, WOW!!
>
There is one more addition to be made. Dev's mother in the film has
died while he is away at war. Adding that to Vandana's statement
probably gives even more weight to her argument....
And, if one wants to argue that AshaB didn't know about the actual
picturization of the song, then this feeling that you detect can
be explained in the instructions given to the singer. {AshaB gave
a cute imitation of the elder Burman's speaking voice in the concert..
Imagine him saying} "Hero has come back from War. His mother died
during the time he was away. Your character is supposed to have gone
and stayed with the mother and been with her in her last days. You
have also been staying there, and now that Dev is back, you will be
the one and not his mother, who has to maintain the house and care
for him, like his mother did before you. He is disconsolate. You
know that he must be missing his mother. You are supposed to ease
his despair. Let him know that you will take care of him now. You
will try to share his sorrows in life. So, sing this song" and
'jahaaN meN aisa kaun hai' is given to AshaB. And I find it amazing
that after adding the Sadhana touch to her voice, she was also able
to imbue the song with this emotion. Truly, there is none like AshaB!!
Thanks, Pavan!! I got a whole new insight into the song {besides
another reason to cherish AshaB's singing even more}
Later,
Ikram.
> Vandana.
Chetan Vinchhi
> And, if one wants to argue that AshaB didn't know about the actual
> picturization of the song, then this feeling that you detect can
> be explained in the instructions given to the singer. {AshaB gave
> a cute imitation of the elder Burman's speaking voice in the concert..
> Imagine him saying}
This is a new one. It is VERY difficult to imagine Burman-da
explaining the song situation for a Jaidev song. Or do you want
to take away the credit from Jaidev ? "Oh Burman dada was SOOOO
kind that he let his poor assistant's name appear for music
credit in one of his films" SHEESSHHHH !
C
ps - I like the vivid imagination RMIM has. From Pavan to Vandana
to you, the would-have-been, should-have-been, could-have-been
and the might-have-been have been freely tossed about to suit the
needs of the poster. "me-lord, iss dastaane ko yahaa.n baiThaa
koi bhi aadmi pahan saktaa hai". Oh how the Asha camp has turned
a weakness suggested by a Lataphile into an immense strength!
pps - No smileys where they are OBVIOUS.
Anil Hingorani
Ikram,
Ikram Ahmed Khan wrote:
>
> And, if one wants to argue that AshaB didn't know about the actual
> picturization of the song, then this feeling that you detect can
> be explained in the instructions given to the singer. {AshaB gave
> a cute imitation of the elder Burman's speaking voice in the concert..
> Imagine him saying} "Hero has come back from War. His mother died
> during the time he was away. Your character is supposed to have gone
> and stayed with the mother and been with her in her last days. You
> have also been staying there, and now that Dev is back, you will be
> the one and not his mother, who has to maintain the house and care
> for him, like his mother did before you. He is disconsolate. You
> know that he must be missing his mother. You are supposed to ease
> his despair. Let him know that you will take care of him now. You
> will try to share his sorrows in life. So, sing this song" and
> 'jahaaN meN aisa kaun hai' is given to AshaB. And I find it amazing
> that after adding the Sadhana touch to her voice, she was also able
> to imbue the song with this emotion. Truly, there is none like AshaB!!
>
How did SDB get in here? 'jahan mein aisa kaun..' was composed by the
talented Jaidev. But I do think Jaidev's guru would have composed this
particular song better. I prefer the duet version of this song to the
solo version. Asha sings the duet much better than the sad/emotional
solo. And what is the 'Sadhana' touch? Did she get a haircut or
something?????????? If I didn't know the movie, I could never guess
that Asha was singing for Sadhana. But then, maybe that is my
shortcoming:-( and not Asha's or her fans:-)
Cheers,
Anil
Vandana
In article <33D8AC...@surfer.amc.bell-labs.com>, Chetan says...
>Oh how the Asha camp has turned
>a weakness suggested by a Lataphile into an immense strength!
Absolutely! Why? Does it rankle?
>
>pps - No smileys where they are OBVIOUS.
Ditto!
Vandana
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of Intel.
FHNaqvi
>Ketan
>
>Who is happy being merely a KK-Burman fan(atic)
Rightly said Ketan:-)))) ......no great deal, isn't it?
Kuntal Shah
Chetan Vinchhi wrote:
> ps - I like the vivid imagination RMIM has.
First UVR accusing Anu Malik of copying a song actually composed
by Viju Shah ( Tip tip barsaa paani ) and now Ikram doing this...
I think RMIMers are not having enough sleep these days.
--
Best Regards,
Kuntal. ( kun...@india.ti.com )
Anil Hingorani
Hi Pavan,
Pavan Kumar Desikan wrote:
>
<snip>
> greater than Lata? Who is considered a greater cricketer, Don Bradman or
> Kapil Dev? Note that I am not making any comparisions between Bradman,
> Kapil, Lata and Asha. I just want to say that you have not presented any
Sorry for bringing cricket into a music group discussion, but your post
reminded me of an interview of RDB that I watched, on one of the Hindi
shows they show on Saturday mornings, a few weeks back. This interview
was taped a few months before he died and in it he said that Lata was
the Don Bradman of the Hindi music industry:-)
Cheers,
Anil
Ketan
In article <33DF4C4C...@etsd.ml.com>, Anil says...
>
>Hi Pavan,
>
>Pavan Kumar Desikan wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> Kapil Dev? Note that I am not making any comparisions between Bradman,
>> Kapil, Lata and Asha. I just want to say that you have not presented any
>
>reminded me of an interview of RDB that I watched, on one of the Hindi
>shows they show on Saturday mornings, a few weeks back. This interview
>was taped a few months before he died and in it he said that Lata was
>the Don Bradman of the Hindi music industry:-)
I have no intention of taking sides here, but the very same RDB went on to
say--"If Lata was the Don Bradman, then Asha was the Gary Sobers". Whether he
meant that she was therefore the second best cricketer ever, or that Asha was a
singer with the greatest allrounder capabilities, is somthing I shall leave for
interpretation to the two warring sides.
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Anil
Amit Malhotra
Ketan wrote:
>
> In article <33DF4C4C...@etsd.ml.com>, Anil says...
> >
> >Hi Pavan,
> >
> >Pavan Kumar Desikan wrote:
> >>
> ><snip>
> I have no intention of taking sides here, but the very same RDB went on to
> say--"If Lata was the Don Bradman, then Asha was the Gary Sobers". Whether he
> meant that she was therefore the second best cricketer ever, or that Asha was a
> singer with the greatest allrounder capabilities, is somthing I shall leave for
> interpretation to the two warring sides.
>
> Ketan
Hello guys,
just wanted to leave a note on this discussion, well, can one really
consider a singer (specially in the case of Lata and Asha) greater then
other? Cricket is of course a different case, one can surely say that
Tendulkar is a better player then Anil Kumble (in batting) but one can't
say that Lata is a better singer then Asha. They are both great singers
and they have earned a lot of respect by the film industry now one being
better then the other, out of a question.
Amit Malhotra (New to RMIM!:))
Anil Hingorani
Ketan wrote:
>
> I have no intention of taking sides here, but the very same RDB went on to
"very same RDB"??? - as opposed to a different one?:-):-):-)
> say--"If Lata was the Don Bradman, then Asha was the Gary Sobers". Whether he
> meant that she was therefore the second best cricketer ever, or that Asha was a
> singer with the greatest allrounder capabilities, is somthing I shall leave for
> interpretation to the two warring sides.
>
I agree with RDB on both the points above! Asha was the second best,
but more versatile(/allrounder):-):-)
Cheers,
Anil
Arunabha
In article <33E0DCFA...@monmouth.com>, Asam says...
>
>Hi Pradeep,
>
>Pradeep Dubey wrote:
>
>> |. It became more of a
>> |> rule after Lata resisted in futility to sing "Buddha mil gaya" in
>> Sangam
>> |> and finally sang it only because she had signed for the movie. She
>> |> hasn't sung that song again in her life and the AIR as a mark of
>> respect
>> |> to the great lady doesn't play that song in their broadcasts.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> "mark of respect"??? Is it that bad a song???
>>
I actually watched an interview of Lm which has bearing on this. In this she was
asked if there was any song which she regretted having sung, and which she
really disliked. Pat came the reply : "Main kaa karoon ram" . I really wonder
why- not only was this song popular, but also there were much worse songs she
consented to singing. I remember there being an outcry " Yeh kya kah rahi hai
Lataji" or to that effect among the people in the lounge watching TV,when this
statement was made by her. :-)
Regards,
Arunabha
Asam
hi Pavan, Arunabha, Sanjeev, Harish, Anil, and all other Lata/Asha fans,
I missed a lot of action the past few days. I was out to Niagara
falls and survived a major car accident. Anyway, a few good postings
from the ever conciliatory Arunabha, Pavan and Harish made some
interesting reading.
I think the discussion is leading nowhere near any conclusion.
The critics have long pointed out the shortcoming of Lata in not
bringing in full emotion into songs when it is really necessary and that
of Asha overdoing it even in the simplest of songs. Both are great
singers in their own right. Lata might not be able to sing a "Jhumka
gira re" with as many variations as Asha, while Asha would never be able
to sing "Na koi umang hai" without crying throughtout the song. But
musical greats as well as acknowledged critics (Western as well as
Indian) have for centuries argued that music should portray emotions
implicitly. That is you needn't have to know that a song is a sad one
just because the singer singing it, cries or sobs in the song. Only in
Indian film songs do you get to see people crying and singing together
!!
As regards the clout and influence of these 2 singers, we will
never be able to get sufficient proof as to whether they really
prevented others from rising. But there are sufficient interviews by
many artistes which do indicate that the 2 did sort of monopolize the
hindi music industry and of the 2, Lata did have greater influence.
Well, if there are many people accusing you of the same thing over 30-40
years then there ought to be some element of truth in it. All of them
wouldn't utter the same lie. But this aspect is besides the point
because none of them would have come anywhere close to the 2 greats.
Probably Suman Kalyanpur and Vani Jairam would have had more number of
songs to their credit than they have as of now. But Lata preventing Asha
from singing is out of question. Asha has sung more number of hindi film
songs than Lata.
Asam
Asam
Hi Pradeep,
Pradeep Dubey wrote:
> |. It became more of a
> |> rule after Lata resisted in futility to sing "Buddha mil gaya" in
> Sangam
> |> and finally sang it only because she had signed for the movie. She
> |> hasn't sung that song again in her life and the AIR as a mark of
> respect
> |> to the great lady doesn't play that song in their broadcasts.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> "mark of respect"??? Is it that bad a song???
>
You have to probably ask her as to what was so very offending in that
song, when present day singers croon their way to glory with filthy
songs like "choli ke peechey".
> And ... is this really true?
>
> Is the source here "STARDUST" or AIR itself?
Well, I don't remember but I think I read it in "Screen". AIR is known
to take such biases however informal. For example KK was approached to
sing a song on family planning in the early seventies but he declined
saying that he is against the idea of asking people to limit the size of
their family. So his songs were not played on radio for quite sometime.
Again I don't remember the source.
Asam
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Asam (chri...@monmouth.com) wrote:
: hi Pavan, Arunabha, Sanjeev, Harish, Anil, and all other Lata/Asha fans,
: Asam
Pavan Kumar Desikan
I have been busy lately, returning to rmim after quite some time. Lots to
catch up :)
Vandana wrote:
: You seem to have been terribly influenced by what Lata said about Asha in
: her book "Phule Vechita" about which you yourself posted a few days back.
:
: Asha's shortcoming, says Lata, is her imagination which runs
: wild, though she refuses to mention what she exactly means
: by it.
:
:
C'mon. If I tell you that I saw an apple falling off a tree, you will tell
me that I have been terribly influenced by Newton :)
At least I have given an explanation with an example of what I mean by
imagination running wild unlike the great lady.
: The picturization of "Jahaan mein aisa kaun hai" is on Dev Anand who is
: troubled about having to act as Nanda's husband and Sadhana, who is trying
: to put his mind at peace so that he can catch atleast a wink of shut-eye as
: she gently places his troubled head on her lap. Eventhough Sadhana is his
: lover and would-be wife, the context here is not at all romantic. a
: woman(that was profound! :). And if Asha could convey all this with just
: her voice, then, WOW!!
I did not know that there were songs in Hindi films targetted at only
"women audience". I am learning something new everyday :)
I am aware of the picturization and the story. I had just finished watching
the movie when I read Neha's post about how she liked Asha's voice in the
song "dukh aur sukh ke raaste", and so I was kind of forced to express my
opinion on the song. You have tried to justify the "child-like" singing
with some explanation that sounds fine in theory, but unfortunately that is
not the feeling one gets when watching the movie. IMO, this explanation
does not fit in with the personality of the chars in the story.
Let me take a tangential detour from this discussion. What is the mood of
the song? What is the feeling that Asha has to convey? Do we have any other
songs that convey similar emotions?
The song has two chars - the singer and the target. The target is troubled
by something and the singer is trying to convey the feeling "I know that
this is a difficult time for you, but I shall remain by your side and we
shall get over this together". Also the singer thinks that he/she knows the
exact reason for the target's grief. Now, for the songs.
1. terii aa.Nkh ke aa.Nsuu pii jaaU.N
aisii merii taqdiir kahaa.N
I have not seen the movie, but I guess Talat is trying to console someone
in grief. But then it seems like it is like remote consoling. The two of
them are not together. I feel that Talat has done full justice in
portraying the right emotions in this song.
2. tere mere sapne, ab ek rang hai
jahaa.N bhii le jaaye raahe.n ham sa.ng hai
Though no loved one's death is bothering Waheeda, the cause for her grief
is much greater. She has lost a means of living. She has absolutely no clue
about her future. It is here that Rafi sings this simply adorable song in
his inimitable style. Did he convey the right emotions? Yes.
3. tum apanaa ranj-o-Gam, apanii pareshaanii mujhe de do
I have not seen the movie and so do not know much about the "scene on the
screen" or the situation of the song. But a nice song by Jagjit Kaur
nevertheless.
4. tere sadaqe balam na kare koI Gam
ye samaa ye jahaa.N phir kahaa.N
Dilip has lost his father and looks troubled, so it is Madhubala's turn to
console him now. The situation of this song is the closest to the situation
of the song "dukh aur sukh ke raaste". In both cases the hero has lost one
of his parents, but is actually being bothered by something else (Nimmi in
Amar and Nanda in Hum Dono). The heroine assumes that the hero's sorrows
are due to the death of the father/mother. However the approach the heroine
takes to console him are different in both the cases, and it would be
difficult to compare the two songs. A lovely song in which the emotions are
held well under control by both Naushad and Lata. The song is not supposed
to be too happy, after all the hero is still supposed to be lamenting the
death of his father, but not too sad either, for the heroine is trying her
best to lift the sagging spirits of the hero. The song is trying to divert
the heros attention to more pleasant things in life, yet there is a subtle
touch of sadness, indicating that he is recovering from a loss of someone
who he loved.
I am not able to think of any other song where the hero loses his mother
and his mehboobaa is trying to console him.
Any thoughts on similar songs?
Asam (chri...@monmouth.com) wrote:
: hi Pavan, Arunabha, Sanjeev, Harish, Anil, and all other Lata/Asha fans,
: I missed a lot of action the past few days.
Me too.
: I think the discussion is leading nowhere near any conclusion.
If you think of conclusion as either Lata>Asha or Asha>Lata then you are
right. But I do not think anyone is interested in that kind of a
conclusion. The conclusion that we are working for is the discussion
itself!(Doesn't it sound like Gulzar?:))
Keep the discussion going.
--
Pavan Kumar Desikan
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~pkd
"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting
myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than
ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Isaac Newton
Ketan
In article <5s2af6$2hh$1...@news.duke.edu>, p...@news.cs.duke.edu says...
>2. tere mere sapne, ab ek rang hai
> jahaa.N bhii le jaaye raahe.n ham sa.ng hai
>
>Though no loved one's death is bothering Waheeda, the cause for her grief
>is much greater. She has lost a means of living. She has absolutely no clue
>about her future. It is here that Rafi sings this simply adorable song in
>his inimitable style. Did he convey the right emotions? Yes.
Objection! He DOES NOT always convey the right emotions. This is what I meant in
an earlier thread when I had mentioned that SDB's/Vijay Anand/Dev Anand did goof
up when it came to picturizing some songs. The song is fabulous, and one of the
best in the movie. Rafi's singing is superb excepting in a part listed below.
Consider the scene before the song starts. Waheeda is sobbing uncontrollably and
Dev is trying to console her, and then we have the song start with Rafi singing
"Tere mere sapne ab ek rang hai..." but what the hell was he thinking when he
sung the same line again, as "Tayyrayy mayyrayy sapnayyy" stretching the words
"Tere" and "mere" things which he normally reserves for his Shammi K style of
songs. It absolutely does not go with the mood of the song, and please don't
come up with a pathetic excuse such as "He was trying to being light and funny".
The blame resides on the shoulders of all the 4 involved--Rafi for knowing the
scene and the mood and yet doing his antics when the situation did not warrant
it, SDB for allowing Rafi to get away with it, Vijay and Dev Anand, for a)
allowing Rafi and SDB to get away with it, and b) for not changing the mood of
the character, considering Rafi had already made the blunder of adding this most
misplaced and unneeded emotion. It is absolutely jarring to hear this, and I for
one grit my teeth whenever I hear this song, these days. As is said, one should
"emote not only the character but also the actor". This Rafi fails to take into
account here despite the fact that for countless other Dev songs, he does it
perfectly well.
Ketan
A Burman fan(atic)
PS: Now we are going to have a list of KK songs where he does his antics right?
These Rafians are becoming more and more predictable. :)