Suman Kalyanpur

asif

unread,

Oct 19, 2002, 10:04:58 AM10/19/02

to

As we all know, Suman Kalyanpur was a highly talented singer who just
did not get as much popularity as Mangeshkar sisters. But I have as
much respect for her as I have for Lata and Asha. Nevertheless she sits
pretty among the all-time 10 great singers. Guess who are the other
9.

One little known fact about Suman is that she benefitted tremendously
from Rafi-Lata rift in the mid '60s. When Rafi and Lata stopped
singing together for some personal reasons (fight I suppose!), music
directors, who preferred Rafi, signed Suman to sing with him. After
all, they could not get any other male singer to sing for Dilip Kumar,
Shammi Kapoor, Rajendra Kumar, Joy Mukherjee, Pradeep Kumar,
Dharmendra, and Shashi Kapoor. The result: we got such memorable duets
like 'Tumne pukaara aur hum chale aaye' (Rajkumar, 1964), 'Dil ek
mandir hai' (Dil Ek Mandir, 1963), 'Ajahoon na aaye baalma' (Saanjh Aur
Savera, 1964), 'Dil ne phir yaad kiya' (Dil Ne Phir Yaad Kiya, 1966),
and 'Na na karte pyaar tumhi se' (Jab Jab Phool Khile, 1965). The
Rafi-Lata rift started sometime in the late 1962 and ended in the late
1967. Only Raj Kapoor, who preferred Lata and also because he did not
have anything to do with Rafi, chose Mahendra Kapoor to sing for
Rejendra Kumar in 'Har dil jo pyaar karega' (Sangam, 1964). Of course,
half of the loot went to Asha Bhosle. But Suman held her own. The
best duets featuring Suman happened in this period of Rafi-Lata rift.
The post Rafi-Lata rift saw Suman fading back into the background and
slowly slipping into near oblivion.

Often I wonder if it was Suman's fate or was it really Lata monopoly or
was Suman herself not aggressive enough or what? I believe she was no
less talented than Lata; otherwise you could have missed Lata in those
memorable duets by Suman and Rafi but you did not.

Asi

--
asif
------------------------------------------------------------------------
asif's Profile: http://www.aksharamala.com/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=1817
View this thread: http://www.aksharamala.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6859

Pipes

unread,

Oct 19, 2002, 11:33:07 AM10/19/02

to

asif wrote:

> As we all know, Suman Kalyanpur was a highly talented singer who just
> did not get as much popularity as Mangeshkar sisters. But I have as
> much respect for her as I have for Lata and Asha. Nevertheless she sits
> pretty among the all-time 10 great singers. Guess who are the other
> 9.

Lata, Asha, Geeta, Saigal, Mukesh, Talat, Rafi, Hemant, Kishore? :)

> One little known fact about Suman is that she benefitted tremendously
> from Rafi-Lata rift in the mid '60s. When Rafi and Lata stopped
> singing together for some personal reasons (fight I suppose!), music
> directors, who preferred Rafi, signed Suman to sing with him. After
> all, they could not get any other male singer to sing for Dilip Kumar,
> Shammi Kapoor, Rajendra Kumar, Joy Mukherjee, Pradeep Kumar,
> Dharmendra, and Shashi Kapoor. The result: we got such memorable duets
> like 'Tumne pukaara aur hum chale aaye' (Rajkumar, 1964), 'Dil ek
> mandir hai' (Dil Ek Mandir, 1963), 'Ajahoon na aaye baalma' (Saanjh Aur
> Savera, 1964), 'Dil ne phir yaad kiya' (Dil Ne Phir Yaad Kiya, 1966),
> and 'Na na karte pyaar tumhi se' (Jab Jab Phool Khile, 1965). The
> Rafi-Lata rift started sometime in the late 1962 and ended in the late
> 1967. Only Raj Kapoor, who preferred Lata and also because he did not
> have anything to do with Rafi, chose Mahendra Kapoor to sing for
> Rejendra Kumar in 'Har dil jo pyaar karega' (Sangam, 1964).

The same year as Sangam, there were films such as Ayee Milan Ki Bela and
Leader which featured Lata-Rafi duets. That's what confuses me. I don't
deny the story of a rift, it's just the timing that confuses me. Is
anyone able to clarify?

Afzal A. Khan

unread,

Oct 19, 2002, 11:45:57 AM10/19/02

to

The entire theme of this post is debatable.

If Suman is supposed to have benefited a great deal from
the Rafi-Lata rift, can we say that Asha-Rafi duets too
should have proliferated, considering that Asha was the
senior of the two, a Mangeshkar and a more established
singer ?

Also, if listeners did not miss Lata in those duets
cited in the post, why did she fade away once Lata
was back in the fray ? If the songs in question became
popular, perhaps the credit is due more to the composers.
Without denying the singing talents of Suman, it would
perhaps be truer to suggest that people "made do" with
her during the period when Lata was not available.
Just MHO.

Afzal

asif

unread,

Oct 19, 2002, 2:20:12 PM10/19/02

to

I understand your confusion, Pipes, about some Lata-Rafi duets coming in
1964 or maybe in 1965. I safely assume they were recorded before the
rift happened. As for Rafi-Asha duets, I suppose that they also showed
up with greater consistency in the rift period than any other time and
also in unlikely settings. Of course, I do not imply that whenever
there were Rafi-Lata duets in a film there was no Rafi-Asha duet in the
same film. But how else do you explain 'Aayi milan ki bela' (Aayi
Milan Ki Bela, 1964), 'Kaise samjhaaoon bade naasamajh ho' (Suraj,
1966), 'Yehi hai woh saanjh aur savera' (Sanjh Aur Savera, 1964) and
'Chhoti si mulaaqaat pyaar ban gayi' (Chhoti Si Mulaaqat, 1967) where
you would typically expect Lata to sing for Saira Banu, Vyjyanthimala,
and Meena Kumari. Shankar Jaikishan were not known to get Asha sing
their songs especially in the '60s. Incidentally, in Suraj there is
another great Rafi-Suman duet 'Itna hai tumse pyaar.'

I believe that those top music directors kinda made do with Suman
during Rafi-Lata rift but not without getting the same success they
would have got with Lata. So why did they turn away from her in the
late '60s? You wonder why Suman faded away once Lata patched up with
Rafi. That is the question of my entire post. I am also surprised
that even less popular music directors like Madan Mohan, Khaiyyam,
Sonik Omi, and Sapan Jagmohan deserted her by the end of the '60s. The
last good Suman songs I remember before she disappeared until mid '70s
(when she came back to sing occasionally) is 'Chale jaa chale jaa'
(Jahan Pyar Miley, 1970) and 'Keh de dil ki baat' (Pehchaan, 1970). I
wish, how I wish, Suman were there giving Lata and Asha a run for their
songs while showcasing her own talent. But why did it not happen?

shekhar

unread,

Oct 19, 2002, 11:54:08 PM10/19/02

to

Pipes <sp...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<3DB17B34...@nospam.com>...

> asif wrote:
>
>
>
> The same year as Sangam, there were films such as Ayee Milan Ki Bela and
> Leader which featured Lata-Rafi duets. That's what confuses me. I don't
> deny the story of a rift, it's just the timing that confuses me. Is
> anyone able to clarify?

If my memory of an old Filmfare article serves me right, the last song
Lata-Rafi recorded before the rift was "O sanam tere ho gaye hum"
(Ayee Milan Ki Bela) and the first one after the patch-up was "Main
hun saqi, tu hai sharabi sharabi" (Ram Aur Shyam).

Regards

Shekhar

aanand

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 1:44:24 AM10/22/02

to

SOme facts :
1. MD turn to Suman only when they wanted to her to mimic lata in
those duets with Rafi. If u listen to those duets like tumne pukara
aur hum chale aye.. u can easily feel that the song was composed in
lata style and thus Suman was prefered. However take other duet from
Raj kumar : Dilruba dil pe tu...it was composed for asha and thus was
rendered by Asha with rafi.

Same could be case of Mamata duets.. Suman sang other part of rahe na
rahe hum
with rafi which was composed for lata and while roshan composed in
baharo me akeli in same moview he preferd asha.

2. The problem with Suman acording to me was she never came out of
lata shadow.
he never established her own style and nobody would go to her just
because she sings just like lata when Lata is available.

Remember even LAta was under shadow of noor jahen in early days and
many MD wanted her to sing like NJ but she eastablished her own style
. Similarly Asha also made sure to come out of shadow of lata and
geeta by developing her own style.

3. IMo she was just a Ok singer , she had a sweet voice , she could
render high notes in sur but there was nothing her own contribution to
song that u can identify with. Take for instance " ajahun aaye
balama"..Do u remmber any single harkat, tan in that song which we can
say as Suman's USP. No. This never happens with lata or asha .. they
always leave their mark on the song.
Thats reason Suman's song normmaly sounds very boring.. Same is true
with her lot of marathi songs .. which are sweet, popular but dull &
boaring !!

rgds
Aannd.

asif <asif....@mail.aksharamala.com> wrote in message news:<asif....@mail.aksharamala.com>...

Sumantra Dutta Roy

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 1:41:08 PM10/22/02

to

anandj...@yahoo.com (aanand) wrote in message

> 3. IMo she was just a Ok singer , she had a sweet voice , she could

Juvekar-ji: I believe she still has a very sweet voice, and the
ravages of
time have thankfully not taken away too much of the sweetness from the
lovely
voice of heres, quite unlike the elder two Mangeshkar sisters, whose
voices
has unfortunately deteriorated a lot - a great loss for all of us.

> with her lot of marathi songs .. which are sweet, popular but dull &
> boaring !!

My personal opinion, of course - The Golden Hour collection, Suman
Geetein
(Vols I and II) are quite fascinating !

Coming to the other part of my email, can some please shed some light
on
Suman Kalyanpur nee Hemadi's early days - where is she from, her music
education: where she and her sister Shyama were initiated into music
and by whom - does music run in their family, their first numbers,
Does any relative of theirs' sing now-a-days, etc ?
I'm sorry if this has been already posted on rmim - careless me - I
haven't checked this out. But with a plethora of articles on her, I
would
indeed be grateful if someone could sned me a pointer to the relevant
article,
as well.

Thanks in advance !
With warm regards,
Sumantra.

asif

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 1:40:47 PM10/22/02

to

Well, it is inded cruel to call her boring. Chances are you maybe just
too obsessed with Lata. Chances are were comparing Suman's notes,
harkat, taan, etc with Lata and did not find Lata in them which you
could not find anyway. If Suman sounded like Lata to you, it was not
her fault. But she excelled in almost her songs like Lata and Asha
did. If you think she did not develop her own style, how can you think
like that. It is possible that she sounded naturally like Lata and
possibly could not alter her throat. If you find the lines like 'aaj
khelo meri zulfon se ijaazat hai tumhe' (Rajkumar, 1964), 'kya bataayen
tumhe hum shama ki kismat kya hai' (Dil Ne Phir Yaad Kiya, 1966),
'bholapan tera bha gaya humko' (Pehchaan, 1970), and 'tujhe pyaar karte
hain' (April Fool, 1964) boring, then I cannot help you.

Asif

Ritu

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 5:42:46 PM10/22/02

to

anandj...@yahoo.com (aanand) wrote in message news:<1a3f12b.02102...@posting.google.com>...

>
> 2. The problem with Suman acording to me was she never came out of
> lata shadow.
> he never established her own style and nobody would go to her just
> because she sings just like lata when Lata is available.
>
>>

> 3. IMo she was just a Ok singer , she had a sweet voice , she could
> render high notes in sur but there was nothing her own contribution to
> song that u can identify with. Take for instance " ajahun aaye
> balama"..Do u remmber any single harkat, tan in that song which we can
> say as Suman's USP. No. This never happens with lata or asha .. they
> always leave their mark on the song.
> Thats reason Suman's song normmaly sounds very boring.. Same is true
> with her lot of marathi songs .. which are sweet, popular but dull &
> boaring !!

Pertinent points. However just as a thought. Could this also be
because a lot of MDs never gave her a chance to sing out of the Lata
mode? Btw very recently I discovered that 'Chodo chodo mori baiyan'
from 'Miya bibi raazi' is Suman. On a casual listening one can be a
little confused. She sounds a lot like Asha. But yes, there is nothing
unique about the voice.

Another singer who I felt was quite different but did not get too many
songs was Sudha Malhotra. She had a musical personality but somehow
never made it.

Cheers
Ritu

asif

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 7:19:22 PM10/22/02

to

It is sickening to note that now some people find 'pertinent points' in
someone's baseless, sick opinion that Suman was boring.

Abhay Jain

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 8:20:01 PM10/22/02

to

Suman seems to be singing at least since 1948.
Hamarcd.com has one song with Geeta Dutt
from Hum Bhi Inssan Hain (1948).

Phulwa Ban Mahke

Abhay Jain

"aanand" <anandj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1a3f12b.02102...@posting.google.com...

> SOme facts :
> 1. MD turn to Suman only when they wanted to her to mimic lata in
> >

> > Asi

Surajit A. Bose

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 9:10:59 PM10/22/02

to

In article <RWlt9.6602$Z9....@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
"Abhay Jain" <abay...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Suman seems to be singing at least since 1948.
> Hamarcd.com has one song with Geeta Dutt
> from Hum Bhi Inssan Hain (1948).

"It's on a web site, it must be true." Lovely though "phulavaa ba.nd
mahake, dekho lahake Daalii Daalii" is, HUM BHI INSAAN HAI wasn't
released in no any year of our lord 1948. It was released in 1959.

Suman's first song for movies was in 1954. Which exactly was her first
song? I think it's the trio with Geeta and Rafi:

muhabbat kar lo jii bhar lo, ajii kisane rokaa hai
par ba.De gajab kii baat hai, is me.n bhii dhokaa hai

for O P Nayyar in AAR PAAR, but according to Hamraaz and co., her first
song is the lovely lori

koii pukaare dhiirese tujhe ...
aa.Nkho.n ke taare, dil ke sahaare

for Mohammed Shafi in MANGU. Here's what I wrote about this in RJGK 58:

> The story is that after
> the success of AAR PAAR's music, OPN was brought in to replace Mohammed
> Shafi in MANGU. Shafi had already recorded the songs for MANGU, many in
> Suman's voice. OPN tossed all of them out, retaining only one lori (the
> exquisite "koii pukaare dhiirese"), because it had already been
> picturized. Reshooting it would be too complicated, since the song
> occurs as a theme song throughout the movie. "koii pukaare dhiirese" is
> usually cited as Suman's first song in Hindi movies, and Hamraaz
> identifies it as such in the giit kosh. But the time line doesn't add
> up. If MANGU was released after AAR PAAR, wouldn't the AAR PAAR song
> logically count as Suman's first song? All Hamraaz replied, however,
> was that "Mohammed Shafi discovered Suman, everybody knows that, even
> Suman says so." Well ... would Suman want to credit OPN with her first
> song when he promptly gutted a bunch of her songs from her next
> released film? Anyway, Suman and OPN never worked together again.
> Also, the story goes that Lata, annoyed that OPN had replaced Shafi in
> this film and her favorite Roshan in another, said she would never sing
> for OPN, to which OPN retorted, "Well, I never asked her to!" So
> "muhabbat kar lo, jii bhar lo" stands at the epicenter of a vast
> controversy involving OPN, Suman, Lata, Roshan, and Shafi.

Anyway....another lovely Suman song from her first year is the duet with
Talat, again for Shafi, from DARWAZA:

ek dil do hai.n talabaGaar, ba.Dii mushkil hai
kash_makash me.n hai meraa pyaar, ba.Dii mushkil hai

And since I've already cited myself, what the heck, I'll do it again.
Re: Suman's duets with Rafi and others, check the intro to the Suman
Kalyanpur RJGK (a Google groups search for "RJGK 53" should suffice).

One point worth repeating (over and over again, until it finally sinks
in and achieves the status of recieved and unquestionable wisdom, so
that people stop bugging me by assuming anything else) is that Suman's
best duets weren't with Rafi anyway. They were with Mukesh.

-s

SKalra902

unread,

Oct 22, 2002, 11:20:05 PM10/22/02

to

>Suman seems to be singing at least since 1948.
>Hamarcd.com has one song with Geeta Dutt
>from Hum Bhi Inssan Hain (1948).
>
>Phulwa Ban Mahke
>
>Abhay Jain

HamaraCD being an HMV/RPG/Saregama concern, I wouldn't trust the Pstats for
any department. They are fully capable of "misinformation", even deterioration
of the Hindi language by spelling "ma.nzile.n" as "ma.nziile.n", and "Hits of
Kishore Kumar" as "Hiits of Kishore Kumar".

Happy listenings.

Satish Kalra

aanand

unread,

Oct 23, 2002, 12:42:17 AM10/23/02

to

rc0...@rediffmail.com (Ritu) wrote in message > >

>
> Pertinent points. However just as a thought. Could this also be
> because a lot of MDs never gave her a chance to sing out of the Lata
> mode? Btw very recently I discovered that 'Chodo chodo mori baiyan'
> from 'Miya bibi raazi' is Suman. On a casual listening one can be a
> little confused. She sounds a lot like Asha. But yes, there is nothing
> unique about the voice.
>

> > Cheers
> Ritu
>
See... NO MD was ever interested or fascinated by her so much that
they would help her to create her own style or would specially compose
songs for her. MDs use her as stop gap arangemnt and would be more
than happy if she delivers the songs sounding like lata. But it was
suman's problem not make songs sound like as if they have been created
for her. I do not think MAdan mohan specially composed ashko se teri
humne or saba se ye keh do for asha but Asha has left her permanant
mark on those songs that we now do not imagine those songs in lata's
voice. That's difference.

I can give example if u know marathi songs ... In Moview " Mumbaicha
javai" Sudhir phadke give suman and Asha each one raag based song.
KAshi karu swagata for Suman and aaj koni tari yave for Asha. Just
listen to both songs and you understand the diffrence why she could
not made it big.

rgds
anand.