Sony-BMG's New Transliteration Scheme.. Roman English with South Indian Accent (Ref : GURU's Inlay Card)
Pavan Jha
been successful in leaving an impression just after a couple of
listening, but the Inlay card with the lyric book is a big
disappointment!!!... The song lyrics are printed in Roman english (It
would have been great, had they provided both hindi-roman english)..
Well this exactly is not the problem but the Problem is that
transliteration scheme is heavily influenced by the south indian accent
of Hindi. specifically the use of "th" in place of "ta" Specially ae
hairate.aashiqi jagaa mat... which is printed in the track list and the
lyric book as "ay haitrathe jagaa math".. This would be a bigger
problem as being the mukhada this song would go in the record books
with given spelling..
some other examples..
*
kyon urdu-farsi "bolthe" ho
das "kehthe" ho do "tolthe" ho (in ae hairate)
*
"thoo" neel samandar hai
mein "reth" ka sahil hoon
"lehraatha" hai aur masti mein
mehtaab ka chehraa "choomthaa" hai (in mayya)
Sony BMG should not have provided the lyric book instead of murdering
it..
Poor Production Work!
just another disappointed buyer
Pavan Jha
asi...@my-deja.com
This has nothing to do with any "South Indian" accent (whatever that
means). The use of th to denote the soft T sound has been common in
Indian film titles and lyrics for a long time. The singular t has been
used to denote the hard t (as in Jat - the Haryanvi/Punjabi community
vs Jath - the word for caste).
Going by the Hindi-film-titles-in-English-convention hairate.aashiqi
jagaa mat as you write it would be pronounced with the rat of hairate
sounding like the rodent and the mat sounding like the object you
wrestle on.
Check out imdb and you will notice the naming convention that I am
referring to. Ananda Math is spelt with the h and not as Anand Mat,
which would sound like a nice tantricy device. Likewise, check out
Haathi mere Saathi and any number of films with the soft Indian t in
the title
Heck, the Indian state of Rajasthan is spelt with a h and not Rajastan.
I wonder how many South Indians conspired to make it so.
http://www.rajasthantourism.gov.in/
Btw, did a South Indian civil servant register your official last name
with an h, Mr. Ja? :-)))))
Cheers
Arun
Pavan Jha
I was talking about camel and seems you understood buffalo..
>> The singular t has been > used to denote the hard t (as in Jat - the Haryanvi/Punjabi >>community vs Jath - the word for caste).
Not really the word for Caste is jaat (जात) not jath
(जाथ)...
> Check out imdb and you will notice the naming convention that I am
> referring to. Ananda Math is spelt with the h and not as Anand Mat,
because Anand Math is correct (its आनन्द मठ not
आनन्द मत)
what would you say about thoo for tu
(how does थू नील समन्दर है sounds instead of
तू नील समन्दर है ?)
Likewise, check out
> Haathi mere Saathi and any number of films with the soft Indian t in
> the title
>
Are you sure about the the authentic publication (like Guru CD is from
sony bmg).. I am not talking about the posterwallahs..
tell how does you read the following in the lyric book
ay hairathe aashiqi jagaa math
ऐ हैरथे आशिकी जगा मथ..
and since the song is referred in the official lyric book as above,
would it be spelt like this only in the future versions of HFGK, ITrans
and Giitaayan... .
Pavan
Pavan Jha
> I wonder how many South Indians conspired to make it so.
> http://www.rajasthantourism.gov.in/
aah I forgot to correct you here too.. Rajasthan
(राजस्थान) is Correct.. its not Rajastan
(राजस्तान)..
>>Btw, did a South Indian civil servant register your official last name
>>with an h, Mr. Ja? :-)))))
Indeed some of the south indian friends did during my first job at
Pentafour in 94... but never at the official level.. At the official
level every body cross checked with me how to write it properly.. And
this is the point I am trying to make.. Its an official publication by
Sony BMG not by any blogger/reviewer and the authority/person
reponsible for the lyric book should have checked it..
Pavan Jha
vrk
an inspector goes to a school in punjab and asks the kid how does one
say n-a-t-u-r-e
the kid has seen chhole bhature (or bhaTooray) spelt thus on stalls and
dutifully says that is naTooray. the inspector huffs and puffs and
walks into the principal and complains in loud and clear terms about
the quality of instruction.
the principal says "rehne do sir kyon naTooray ke peechhe bachche kaa
faTooray kharaab karte ho"
aashay yeh hai
kee baat (or baath) niklegee to phir door talak (or thalak) jaayegee :)
asi...@my-deja.com
Pavan Jha wrote:
> Arun,
>
> I was talking about camel and seems you understood buffalo..
>
> >> The singular t has been > used to denote the hard t (as in Jat - the Haryanvi/Punjabi >>community vs Jath - the word for caste).
>
> Not really the word for Caste is jaat (जात) not jath
> (जाथ)...
>
> > Check out imdb and you will notice the naming convention that I am
> > referring to. Ananda Math is spelt with the h and not as Anand Mat,
> because Anand Math is correct (its आनन्द मठ not
> आनन्द मत)
I know about the difference between above ts. I was merely
*sarcastically* pointing out the inconsistencies with the roman
versions of various ts, especially the two soft ones. (and in the case
of Ananda Math, the closest Romanization would be Ananda Mutt - and in
fact, the word मठ is spelt as Mutt near my house in Bangalore.)
Note that Pakistan is spelt without a h but Rajasthan has h. As you've
done, one can accuse a Punjabi Pakistani of mispelling their country's
name. :-)
I don't think being South Indian has anything to do with it. Unless
folks use diacritics or itrans, I doubt if you will get a consistent
naming convention.
Btw, imdb merely follows the convention adopted by the original film
maker, so that is as "official" as it gets.
Cheers
Arun
asi...@my-deja.com
Imho, there is no such thing as a "South Indian" pronunciation and it
gets tiresome when one generalizes millions of people from four states
with at least 7 different languages as having one unique
characteristic. Telugu (as UVR has mentioned in the context of the
Indian Idol competitor's mispronunciation [1]) and Kannada have all the
vowels and consonents that Hindi possesses. So, imho, does Konkani.
Dunno about Tulu and Kodagu. I suspect Malayalam may have all the
alphabets of Hindi in its kitty.
Now, Tamil may be a different story and I have heard Tamilians state
that their language does not have all the alphabets of Hindi/Sanskrit,
but I do not know the language to agree/disagree. That is similar to
Arabs pronouncing the letter p as b/f since classical Arabic does not
have p - thus, for example, "Parsi" became "Farsi" after the Arab
invasion [2].
[1] http://tinyurl.com/yc56wg
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language
Cheers
Arun
Vinay
Really? I am surprised to see this coming from you. The use of 'th' to
denote the soft 't' sound is not only not common, but non-existent in
Hindi film titles and lyrics, however non-standard the nature of
industry's Roman transcription is.
> Going by the Hindi-film-titles-in-English-convention hairate.aashiqi
> jagaa mat as you write it would be pronounced with the rat of hairate
> sounding like the rodent and the mat sounding like the object you
> wrestle on.
>
No. Again, first of all there is no "convention" for Hindi film and
lyrics titles for posters and inlay use. There are no dearth of
examples like Qismat/Kismat/Kismet. But even then, generally 't' is
used for both hard and soft 't'. I have rarely seen 'th' used for soft
't' sound.
> Check out imdb and you will notice the naming convention that I am
> referring to. Ananda Math is spelt with the h and not as Anand Mat,
> which would sound like a nice tantricy device. Likewise, check out
> Haathi mere Saathi and any number of films with the soft Indian t in
> the title
As pointed by Pavan already, Anand Math is spelt with an h because it
is pronounced maTh in Hindi, not maT. That the English word for maTh is
Mutt does not have any bearing on its Hindi pronunciation. Same for
Haathi Mere Saathi or other number of films that you may be talking
about. They do not have soft 't' (non-aspirated); they have soft 'th'
(an aspirated 't') in their pronunciation. Give me an example where you
think a soft 't' is denoted by 'th'. If you can find one, I bet that it
would be from a Tamil producer.
>
> Heck, the Indian state of Rajasthan is spelt with a h and not Rajastan.
> I wonder how many South Indians conspired to make it so.
> http://www.rajasthantourism.gov.in/
>
Rajasthan is pronounced with a soft 'th' sound and Pakistan is
pronounced with a 't' sound and that's how they are spelt in Hindi and
the English spelling tries to be close too.
> Btw, did a South Indian civil servant register your official last name
> with an h, Mr. Ja? :-)))))
>
I agree that Pavan's saying that it's a "South Indian" way of
transcribing in Roman is not precise, but you seem to have missed the
point he was trying to make. Though, it may not be true for all South
Indian (or Dravidian if you will) languages, what he said is true for
Tamil speakers. Most Tamil speakers do that when writing Indian words
in Roman, even when not following any standard. Since Tamil script
does not have letters for aspirated sounds and hence does not make any
differentiation between non-aspirated and aspirated sounds, it makes
sense that for writing Tamil words in Roman Tamil speakers use 't' for
hard 'T' and 'th' for the soft one. But it does not work well when they
do it for writing Hindi words? It confuses people who have both the
normal and aspirated sounds in their language. And that's the issue
here.
Aside, I am appalled at the non-professionalism of the industry. Why
can't/shouldn't/mustn't they use the original prevalent scripts of the
respective language for transcription, even if in addition to Roman.
Most of those scripts do a good (a much better than the non-standard
Roman they use) job of depicting their respective languages' sounds
accurately. Besides, as a consumer I think it's not only unfair but
borderline abusive not providing Hindi lyrics in Nagari and Tamil in
Tamil.
Vinay
> Cheers
> Arun
Vinay
vrk wrote:
> unconnected but was reminded of this joke on tv recently
>
> an inspector goes to a school in punjab and asks the kid how does one
> say n-a-t-u-r-e
>
> the kid has seen chhole bhature (or bhaTooray) spelt thus on stalls and
> dutifully says that is naTooray. the inspector huffs and puffs and
> walks into the principal and complains in loud and clear terms about
> the quality of instruction.
>
> the principal says "rehne do sir kyon naTooray ke peechhe bachche kaa
> faTooray kharaab karte ho"
>
ROTFL. yaa kahuu.N HHLP (ha.Nsate-ha.Nsate loT-poT) :).
Vinay
arun
hairathe? bolthe?? -- this is a massacre. really terrible.
Simha-ji - you are on a completely wrong footing here and whether you
agree or disagree this is a south indian influence (or interpretation)
...
Music is awesome - especially tere bina, jaage hai and Ae
Hairat-e-Aashiqui - the others are too situational and/or tried and
tested (bur very vintage AR Rahman) sounds...
8.5/10
a good followup to Rang de basanti which was actually a tad better in
my book -- but Gulzar's lyrics might make Guru more of a repeat-listen
..
Arun V
asi...@my-deja.com
*sigh*. I guess the sarcasm in my post was missed entirely and more
than one poster has taken it literally. :-(
My point was that there are roughly two "official" conventions
(diacritics, ITRANS) and anything else is at the whim of the writer.
Given that Indian languages are not transcribed per either convention
in films, lyric books, CD sleeves, newspapers, shop-signboards you are
bound to get inconsistent results,
Example: My neighbourhood temple can claim that they are perfectly
correct to write Mutt and that Math is a ridiculous "North
Indian/Bengali/whatever-region-you-want-to-bash spelling". Check out
how Indian newspapers from the same region spell that word. Deccan
Herald/Hindu use "Ramakrishna Math" and "Sankara Mutt" for institutions
that are located 1 km apart - often in the same article. :-) Isn't
Deccan Herald and the Hindu official enough for you?
[Note: that Sankara Mutt lies in Shankarapuram. One is the advaita
master's name and the other is the diety, hence the difference in
spelling (with and without h). Adds to the complication, doesn't it?]
So a CD-sleeve transcriber looks at English words with one of the soft
t's and adds a h to differentiate it from the hard t, since he believes
that the t in hairate does not have an English equivalent. For example,
he may look at 'ticket' and 'thicket' and believe that the 'th' in
thicket is closer to the 't' in hairate than the 't' in ticket is! Some
folks may believe him to be correct. Others may vehemently oppose that
spelling.
The bottom line of my posts is that it would be great if everyone
(including newspapers) adopted a standard convention or came up with a
standard convention rather than use whimsical spelling conventions.
IIRC, the Turks uniformly got away from Arabic script by adopting a
standard Roman convention for their language. We should adopt a
standard convention for transcribing as well. [Though NOT as a
replacement for native scripts. That could've tragic cultural results.]
Cheers
Arun
Hema
Well said, Vinay. My frustration also continues with the sub-titling in
dvds of more recent releases (on dvd). Everytime I watch a hindi movie
with english subtitles I wish the sub-titles were done
"professionally". Some are ridiculous and some simply inaccurate.
However, my biggest pet peeve is the term "south asian" used for
something that is essentially only Indian. But then I digress...
Hema.
asi...@my-deja.com
Vinay wrote:
>
> Aside, I am appalled at the non-professionalism of the industry. Why
> can't/shouldn't/mustn't they use the original prevalent scripts of the
> respective language for transcription, even if in addition to Roman.
> Most of those scripts do a good (a much better than the non-standard
> Roman they use) job of depicting their respective languages' sounds
> accurately. Besides, as a consumer I think it's not only unfair but
> borderline abusive not providing Hindi lyrics in Nagari and Tamil in
> Tamil.
>
> Vinay
Here too, there may be issues with Devnagari-zing Urdu lyrics. You will
get inaccuracies no matter what. However, I do agree that they should
make every attempt to provide the lyrics in the native language instead
of Roman.
Cheers
Arun
Vinay
asi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Vinay wrote:
>
> >
> > Aside, I am appalled at the non-professionalism of the industry. Why
> > can't/shouldn't/mustn't they use the original prevalent scripts of the
> > respective language for transcription, even if in addition to Roman.
> > Most of those scripts do a good (a much better than the non-standard
> > Roman they use) job of depicting their respective languages' sounds
> > accurately. Besides, as a consumer I think it's not only unfair but
> > borderline abusive not providing Hindi lyrics in Nagari and Tamil in
> > Tamil.
> >
> > Vinay
>
>
> Here too, there may be issues with Devnagari-zing Urdu lyrics. You will
> get inaccuracies no matter what.
What inaccuracies? Don't make issues where there are none. There is no
issue in writing Hindi lyrics with Hindi/Urdu words in Devanagari. A
10000+ ISB is proof enough of that (yes, it uses Devanagari spelling,
if you didn't know that). There's rarely a word in Hindi songs that
does not have a standardized spelling in Nagari.
Vinay
> However, I do agree that they should
> make every attempt to provide the lyrics in the native language instead
> of Roman.
>
Why only the lyrics. In fact personally I don't care much for lyrics
provided with CD covers. It anyway is a new and still rare phenomenon.
The inlay cards, posters, and most of all the credits in the movie is
what I would like to see in the movie's language, not exclusively may
be but mandatorily.
Vinay
> Cheers
> Arun
Vinay
Sarcasm, huh?
"Check out imdb and you will notice the naming convention that I am
referring to. Ananda Math is spelt with the h and not as Anand Mat,
which would sound like a nice tantricy device. "
Again, Anand Math is spelt with an th because in Hindi (the language of
the movie) it is spelt/pronounced as maTh - hard 'Th' (the first letter
of the word Tha.nDhaa).
"Likewise, check out Haathi mere Saathi and any number of films with
the soft Indian t in
the title"
Haathi Mere Saathi does not have the 'soft Indian t' in the title; it
has the soft Hindi 'th' in both Haathi and Saathi. I still can't see
the sarcasm in it.
> My point was that there are roughly two "official" conventions
> (diacritics, ITRANS) and anything else is at the whim of the writer.
> Given that Indian languages are not transcribed per either convention
> in films, lyric books, CD sleeves, newspapers, shop-signboards you are
> bound to get inconsistent results,
>
> Example: My neighbourhood temple can claim that they are perfectly
> correct to write Mutt and that Math is a ridiculous "North
> Indian/Bengali/whatever-region-you-want-to-bash spelling". Check out
> how Indian newspapers from the same region spell that word. Deccan
> Herald/Hindu use "Ramakrishna Math" and "Sankara Mutt" for institutions
> that are located 1 km apart - often in the same article. :-) Isn't
> Deccan Herald and the Hindu official enough for you?
>
Apples and Oranges. Mutt is an anglicized spelling of maTh. It's not a
north-south thing. I have seen people write Mutt even in north as well.
The Sanskrit word is maTh. The derivatives include maThaadhiish. Heard
of Muttaadhiish ever? No, because English didn't borrow this one.
> [Note: that Sankara Mutt lies in Shankarapuram. One is the advaita
> master's name and the other is the diety, hence the difference in
> spelling (with and without h). Adds to the complication, doesn't it?]
>
> So a CD-sleeve transcriber looks at English words with one of the soft
> t's and adds a h to differentiate it from the hard t, since he believes
> that the t in hairate does not have an English equivalent. For example,
> he may look at 'ticket' and 'thicket' and believe that the 'th' in
> thicket is closer to the 't' in hairate than the 't' in ticket is! Some
> folks may believe him to be correct. Others may vehemently oppose that
> spelling.
>
That's the whole point. For Hindi (and of other languages that have
aspirated sounds) speakers, 't' is more intuitive for soft 't' or hard
'T', and 'th' for soft 'th' or hard 'Th'. For Tamil speakers, 't' works
for hard 'T' and 'th' works for soft 't'. Hence Lata but Mani Rathnam.
Of course these are general practices only, there is no standard. These
are workarounds based on local lingusitics tendencies for inadequacy of
Roman to write most Indian languages.
> The bottom line of my posts is that it would be great if everyone
> (including newspapers) adopted a standard convention or came up with a
> standard convention rather than use whimsical spelling conventions.
> IIRC, the Turks uniformly got away from Arabic script by adopting a
> standard Roman convention for their language. We should adopt a
> standard convention for transcribing as well. [Though NOT as a
> replacement for native scripts. That could've tragic cultural results.]
>
I see a contradiction here. You say that we should follow the example
of Turks who *replaced* Arabic with Roman script. And then in the next
sentence you refuse the replacement strongly?
Vinay
> Cheers
> Arun
asi...@my-deja.com
Vinay wrote:
> asi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Vinay wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Aside, I am appalled at the non-professionalism of the industry. Why
> > > can't/shouldn't/mustn't they use the original prevalent scripts of the
> > > respective language for transcription, even if in addition to Roman.
> > > Most of those scripts do a good (a much better than the non-standard
> > > Roman they use) job of depicting their respective languages' sounds
> > > accurately. Besides, as a consumer I think it's not only unfair but
> > > borderline abusive not providing Hindi lyrics in Nagari and Tamil in
> > > Tamil.
> > >
> > > Vinay
> >
> >
> > Here too, there may be issues with Devnagari-zing Urdu lyrics. You will
> > get inaccuracies no matter what.
>
> What inaccuracies? Don't make issues where there are none. There is no
> issue in writing Hindi lyrics with Hindi/Urdu words in Devanagari. A
> 10000+ ISB is proof enough of that (yes, it uses Devanagari spelling,
> if you didn't know that). There's rarely a word in Hindi songs that
> does not have a standardized spelling in Nagari.
>
> Vinay
Try writing the Urdu word 'Sukhan' in Devnagari.
Cheers
Arun
asi...@my-deja.com
Vinay wrote:
>
> Sarcasm, huh?
>
> "Check out imdb and you will notice the naming convention that I am
> referring to. Ananda Math is spelt with the h and not as Anand Mat,
> which would sound like a nice tantricy device. "
>
> Again, Anand Math is spelt with an th because in Hindi (the language of
> the movie) it is spelt/pronounced as maTh - hard 'Th' (the first letter
> of the word Tha.nDhaa).
>
> "Likewise, check out Haathi mere Saathi and any number of films with
> the soft Indian t in
> the title"
>
> Haathi Mere Saathi does not have the 'soft Indian t' in the title; it
> has the soft Hindi 'th' in both Haathi and Saathi. I still can't see
> the sarcasm in it.
Arrey baba. I used two examples; Math and Saathi/Haathi where the roman
'th' is used for two different alphabets in Hindi? I was trying to
convey (through the lost cause of sarcasm) that there seems to be no
convention as far as Roman spellings and Indian languages are
concerned.
>
> > My point was that there are roughly two "official" conventions
> > (diacritics, ITRANS) and anything else is at the whim of the writer.
> > Given that Indian languages are not transcribed per either convention
> > in films, lyric books, CD sleeves, newspapers, shop-signboards you are
> > bound to get inconsistent results,
> >
> > Example: My neighbourhood temple can claim that they are perfectly
> > correct to write Mutt and that Math is a ridiculous "North
> > Indian/Bengali/whatever-region-you-want-to-bash spelling". Check out
> > how Indian newspapers from the same region spell that word. Deccan
> > Herald/Hindu use "Ramakrishna Math" and "Sankara Mutt" for institutions
> > that are located 1 km apart - often in the same article. :-) Isn't
> > Deccan Herald and the Hindu official enough for you?
> >
>
> Apples and Oranges. Mutt is an anglicized spelling of maTh. It's not a
> north-south thing. I have seen people write Mutt even in north as well.
> The Sanskrit word is maTh. The derivatives include maThaadhiish. Heard
> of Muttaadhiish ever? No, because English didn't borrow this one.
>
I know! That, my dear friend, is the point. There is no consistency.
> > [Note: that Sankara Mutt lies in Shankarapuram. One is the advaita
> > master's name and the other is the diety, hence the difference in
> > spelling (with and without h). Adds to the complication, doesn't it?]
> >
> > So a CD-sleeve transcriber looks at English words with one of the soft
> > t's and adds a h to differentiate it from the hard t, since he believes
> > that the t in hairate does not have an English equivalent. For example,
> > he may look at 'ticket' and 'thicket' and believe that the 'th' in
> > thicket is closer to the 't' in hairate than the 't' in ticket is! Some
> > folks may believe him to be correct. Others may vehemently oppose that
> > spelling.
> >
>
> That's the whole point. For Hindi (and of other languages that have
> aspirated sounds) speakers, 't' is more intuitive for soft 't' or hard
> 'T', and 'th' for soft 'th' or hard 'Th'. For Tamil speakers, 't' works
> for hard 'T' and 'th' works for soft 't'. Hence Lata but Mani Rathnam.
> Of course these are general practices only, there is no standard. These
> are workarounds based on local lingusitics tendencies for inadequacy of
> Roman to write most Indian languages.
As Obelix would say Zigackly!
>
> > The bottom line of my posts is that it would be great if everyone
> > (including newspapers) adopted a standard convention or came up with a
> > standard convention rather than use whimsical spelling conventions.
> > IIRC, the Turks uniformly got away from Arabic script by adopting a
> > standard Roman convention for their language. We should adopt a
> > standard convention for transcribing as well. [Though NOT as a
> > replacement for native scripts. That could've tragic cultural results.]
> >
>
> I see a contradiction here. You say that we should follow the example
> of Turks who *replaced* Arabic with Roman script. And then in the next
> sentence you refuse the replacement strongly?
>
> Vinay
Maybe I am not communicating well. Let me clarify.
1. There should be a roman convention for Indian languages, if it is
ever used (for example, words that are in Hindi in English newspapers,
English novels where a few words of Hindi are spoken etc)
2. The native script should still be used and the roman script should
not be used as a forced replacement.So Hindi newspapers should still
use devnagari. Lyrics can still be written in the native languages etc.
Cheers
Arun
Vinay
If you are talking about the word that is related to 'poetry' and
'words', it is written *and* pronounced as 'सुख़न' (iTrans:
suKan) in Hindi. Many dictionaries and hundreds of Urdu books published
in Nagari will tell you that. And FWIW, it's *pronounced* the same by
Urdu speakers, AFAIK.
Vinay
>
> Cheers
> Arun
asi...@my-deja.com
Nope, it is not. There is no equivalent in Hindi of the Urdu alphabet
svad (a.k.a su'ad). The Su of Sukhan (or SuKan) is not equal to the
Hindi सु. The Hindi alphabet that you've written corresponds to the
Urdu 'sin'. Similar examples abound with other Urdu alphabets that do
not have equivalents in Hindi -and this is the caveat - if properly
pronounced. The more I learn formal Urdu, the more I realise how faulty
pronunciations of Urdu words predominate popular culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Urdu_alphabets.png
Cheers
Arun
Vinay
I knew you were going to say that. But you also need to know that even
Urdu speakers do not differentiate between the different sounds of sa's
(and while we are at it, different kinds of za's).
Besides it doesn't matter. We were talking of standards in spellings in
Hindi/Nagari. suKhan as I wrote is standardized in Hindi and can be
seen in several books, magazines and dictionaries, not to mention in
ISB :). That's all that matters.
Vinay
Abhijit
people from different regions (south Indian states included) pronounce
Hindi words. I see no problem admitting it. Talking of alphabet, even
Bengali inherits the complete set of letters from Sanskrit and is
hardly any different to Devanagari. But the way they pronounce (e.g.)
"sa", "va", "ya" is very different from how people from Hindi belt
pronounce.
Also, I agree adding "h" pronunciation to some Hindi consonants (e.g.,
"ta", "da") and removing where there is one (e.g., "gha", "ha", "bha",
"Tha") come from people who usually speak one of the south Indian
languages. In CDs I got from HamaraCD the printed song titles were so
ridiculous, sometiems it made it hard to even recognize the song. Now
that could be because of some language-ignorant person entering the
title in their database and HMV carelessly using those titles on the
inlay cards.
asi...@my-deja.com
True. Eventually, a common denominator is created that everyone
converges to. But this common denominator is not necessarily a bad
thing. Eventually, one ends up creating a new language. I'm sure a lot
of native Iranians must be cringing everytime a Farsi word adopted by
Urdu is mispronounced (according to them) by Urdu speakers. But most
folks have accepted the Urdu pronunciations, right?
>
> Besides it doesn't matter. We were talking of standards in spellings in
> Hindi/Nagari. suKhan as I wrote is standardized in Hindi and can be
> seen in several books, magazines and dictionaries, not to mention in
> ISB :). That's all that matters.
>
> Vinay
Fair enough. If there exists a consistent standard for writing Urdu in
devnagari - regardless of inaccuracy - it probably has become the de
facto convention.
Cheers
Arun