Composer of 'ye Jindagii usii kii hai'
naniwadekar
Recently Hridaynath Mangeshkar claimed in a much-viewed and much-
discussed programme on a Marathi TV channel that C Ramchandra had
composed only the mukhada of 'ye zi.ndagii usii kii hai'; I am writing
'gii' instead of 'gi' because I have used iTrans throughout this post
for words of the song. My immediate reaction was that this is an
attempt by the Mangeshkars to deny CR credit for the famous
composition. I do not like 'ye Ji.ndagii usii kii hai' at all and can
name dozens of sublime Lata-CR songs far better than the solo in
Anarkali (1953) in my sleep but there is no denying how popular it had
been, and probably still is. Not surprisingly the ientity of the
song's composer has become a hot topic of discussion among listeners
following Hridaynath's claim.
On the one hand, Hridaynath's compelling narrations as one of the
judges of the contest was the chief attraction to me despite all its
faults; on the other hand a small series can be compiled out of his
stories under the heading: Lies Which Hridaynath Told. He has driven
his agenda here and there but that is his prerogative. He is easily
among my top 3 to 5 favourite composers. What really jars are the
stories which are quite unbelievable. I will post a few more of them
in the coming days.
Coming back to 'ye zindagii usii kii hai', it so happens that Lata
Mangeshkar had written a tribute to Roshan in November 1967 and hinted
that Roshan tuned the stanzas of the song because CR was struggling to
compose them. The claim was demolished soon later by Raju Bharatan
after discussing Lata's article with CR.
Stay tuned; the full story to follow soon. Suresh Chandvankar has
written an article on the controversy exposing the Mangeshkars for the
fraud that everybody knows they are.
- dn
Asif
> composition. I do not like 'ye Ji.ndagii usii kii hai' at all and can
May I know why you do not like this song at all? I am truly curious
to know your opinion. It has remained among my all-time top favorite
songs - Lata at her best and CR at his finest.
>
> Coming back to 'ye zindagii usii kii hai', it so happens that Lata
> Mangeshkar had written a tribute to Roshan in November 1967 and hinted
> that Roshan tuned the stanzas of the song because CR was struggling to
> compose them. The claim was demolished soon later by Raju Bharatan
> after discussing Lata's article with CR.
>
What's so extremely difficult in this song for CR to have struggled to
compose its antaras then? I read years ago (probably in Filmfare,
maybe the same Raju B stuff you mentioned above) that CR composed it
on raag Kafi. CR may have also been inspired by another Kafi-based
song 'ye raat ye chaandni' (Jaal, 1952) which came a year earlier and
sounds a bit like 'ye zindagi usi ki hai'. Plus, I believe CR
composed a similar song earlier in Samadhi or some other film - cannot
recall it. So I very much believe the song was purely CR's and nobody
else'. Is Hridaynath M polishing his narrative skills to write a
fiction soon?
Asif
Vinay
> 'gii' instead of 'gi' because I have used iTrans throughout this post
> for words of the song. My immediate reaction was that this is an
> attempt by the Mangeshkars to deny CR credit for the famous
> composition. I do not like 'ye Ji.ndagii usii kii hai' at all and can
> name dozens of sublime Lata-CR songs far better than the solo in
Clever flame-bait, Nani (re. the ITRANS J=z). Also, nicely makes the
point that the quarrels that happen in this newsgroup over how a
certain Hindi/Urdu sound *must* be written in Roman (when not
following any standard scheme) are so pointless.
Vinay
> - dn
bharat
WELCOME NANI AFTER LONG LEAVE,
It gas become fashion to spread rumors after the persons involved are
no more. These canards are spread out of personal fights or to boost
selfish ego. One such is Klsaab told Naushad that his life would have
been better if he met him before etc.any proof, any evidence ?( kehta
bhi divana , sunata bhi divaana)Bharat.Does anyone think CR not
capable of composing a good songs.I humly beg to differ with naniji on
quality of the dong in question but there again it is personal
matter.I am eagerly waiting for more such stories from Nani.
I
AR
> Recently Hridaynath Mangeshkar claimed in a much-viewed and much-
> discussed programme on a Marathi TV channel that C Ramchandra had
> composed only the mukhada of 'ye zi.ndagii usii kii hai'; I am writing
> 'gii' instead of 'gi' because I have used iTrans throughout this post
> for words of the song. My immediate reaction was that this is an
> attempt by the Mangeshkars to deny CR credit for the famous
> composition. I do not like 'ye Ji.ndagii usii kii hai' at all and can
> name dozens of sublime Lata-CR songs far better than the solo in
> Anarkali (1953) in my sleep but there is no denying how popular it had
> been, and probably still is. Not surprisingly the ientity of the
> song's composer has become a hot topic of discussion among listeners
> following Hridaynath's claim.
>
> On the one hand, Hridaynath's compelling narrations as one of the
> judges of the contest was the chief attraction to me despite all its
> faults; on the other hand a small series can be compiled out of his
> stories under the heading: Lies Which Hridaynath Told.
I haven't seen these particular episodes, but I have seen youtube
clips of his programme "Didi AaNi mee", in which he made the statement
that she still sounded as fresh and sweet as she did when she was in
her twenties.
>
> Coming back to 'ye zindagii usii kii hai', it so happens that Lata
> Mangeshkar had written a tribute to Roshan in November 1967 and hinted
> that Roshan tuned the stanzas of the song because CR was struggling to
> compose them. The claim was demolished soon later by Raju Bharatan
> after discussing Lata's article with CR.
>
I vaguely remember having read something about this in Raju Bharatan's
book on Lata. She apparently claimed around 1967 (when she celebrated
the silver jubilee of her entry into film music) that this song was
heavily inspired by some old Marathi natyageet. When Raju Bharatan
mentioned this to CR, he was very hurt, in fact devastated.
But this is what I vaguely remember having read. As I don't have
access to the book right now, I can't verify. I am not even sure
whether Lata's claim was incorrect or whether Raju Bharatan thought it
was incorrect. His objection was more about Lata having suddenly
brought up the issue merely to insult CR, even though she had known
about its (apparent) source of inspiration for 15 years.
> Stay tuned; the full story to follow soon. Suresh Chandvankar has
> written an article on the controversy exposing the Mangeshkars for the
> fraud that everybody knows they are.
>
Please post it soon. I am curious to read Dr. Chandvankar's article.
> - dn
naniwadekar
>
> She apparently claimed around 1967 (when she celebrated
> the silver jubilee of her entry into film music) that this song was
> heavily inspired by some old Marathi natyageet.
>
I have read that C Ramchandra decided to re-design the tune
of the traditional Natya-geet 'moortimant bheetee ubhee' and
the result was 'ye zindagi usi ki hai'. I am not sure whether
CR himself was the source of the story or it was floated by
sources intent on maligning him; but I do not find any
similarity worth the name in the two tunes. Some similarity,
though, does exist; and I could be persuaded that it is
stronger than I think.
As it happens, Lata herself sang, rather mechanically,
'moortimant bhiitii' in a Marathi
film in early 1950s; the film's MD Shankarrao
Kulkarni (?) got the credit for this song, too. But the tune
has been known to listeners since before Lata's and
Kulkarni's time. The mukhada of Lata-Talat duet 'aasamaa
waale terii duniyaa se jee ghabaraa gayaa' is lifted straight
from 'moortimant bheetee' by Ghulam Mohammed, and
sung beautifully by Lata.
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
Can we listen to "moortimant bheetee" online ?
Afzal
vijaykumark
In a Raju Bhartan article on Anarkali & MeA, he quotes
CR as saying that his (CR's) dad used to sing the song
in his bath, and that murtimat bhiti ubhi was the inspiration
for ye zindagi usi ki hai.
I leave it your judgement about RB's penchant for truth.
Vijay
UVR
There seems to be independent corroboration of RB's statement here
(not vis a vis the singing in the bath, but about the song being
copied). See this: http://tinyurl.com/mxacg7 -- except the Marathi
naaTyageet is referenced here as "moortimant bheeti PUDHE". Of
course, I don't know Marathi and wouldn't be able to tell an ubhi from
a pudhe if they came and bit me.
-UVR.
bharat
> naaTyageet is referenced here as "moortimant bheeti PUDHE". Of
> course, I don't know Marathi and wouldn't be able to tell an ubhi from
> a pudhe if they came and bit me.
>
> -UVR.
ask Hridaynath if CR did not compose antaras who did it ?
UVR they will not BIT you they will BITE you.for first lesson ubhi is
standing and Pudhe is ahead.
kcp
Ohh common Vijay !! Did you not see Nani giving the same very Raju
Bharatan's article as a PROOF - to deny what Hridaynath said in the
Zee Marathi show ? Or maybe Nani was present himself in Nana Chowk
behind a tree, when the episode happened and Roshan came and said Hi
to CR and disapprared !!
Such bullshit should be stopped ( I know I am banging against a wall
when I write take Nani in reference :-) - but anyways !! ) when it
comes to learned and great people like HM. HM for sure is one person
who will not get into unnecessary rumours ( because he is a
Mangeshkar ) !!
Vinayak
like MURIMANT BHEETI UBHI... a very famous drama song popularised by
Baal Gandharva in probably early 30s may be early 40s...Drama
SHAARADA....
I am also surprised that CR STRUGGLED TO FIND TUNES for the
ANTARAS.....
Unbelievable.
However if some one says, CR STRUGGLED FOR ONE WEEK TO TUNE THE
ANTARAS, it is believable....even genius's take their time.
Vinayak
kcp
> If you are looking at Inspiration for the Mukhada, it is certainly
> like MURIMANT BHEETI UBHI... a very famous drama song popularised by
> Baal Gandharva in probably early 30s may be early 40s...Drama
> SHAARADA....
>
> I am also surprised that CR STRUGGLED TO FIND TUNES for the
> ANTARAS.....
Vinay, I am surprised that you are joining the bandwagon.
It is a known fact that the talented music directors in the golden era
were never happy with what they used to compose , before the
rehearsals. They were trying to give their best and were never happy.
Can it not be a possibility that CR was not happy with whatever he WAS
tuning , before Roshan came ? Forget for gods sake what is ALREADY
done in the present song, will you all RMIMERs ?
And moreover the context with what HM said in the Zee TV show, has to
be analyzed by the ill-headed , stone-deaf, irresponsible and idiot
critics :
He wanted to give this example for the amount of bhaichara that the
greats had with each other , in those days. The contribution that they
made was never ever discussed outside the close circles.
In fact HM was guiding the budding artists of the Marathi industry to
be happy , joyful, cordial and co-operative in their fields. This was
the MAIN reason that HM gave this example.
Guys, stop being moronic and enjoy the real sentiments that these
great people have lived all along.
Vinay
> On Aug 18, 1:04 pm, Vinayak <vsv1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If you are looking at Inspiration for the Mukhada, it is certainly
> > like MURIMANT BHEETI UBHI... a very famous drama song popularised by
> > Baal Gandharva in probably early 30s may be early 40s...Drama
> > SHAARADA....
>
> > I am also surprised that CR STRUGGLED TO FIND TUNES for the
> > ANTARAS.....
>
> Vinay, I am surprised that you are joining the bandwagon.
No comments on the topic. But that post you replied to was by Vinayak,
not me.
Vinay
Vinayak
""Vinay, I am surprised that you are joining the bandwagon.
It is a known fact that the talented music directors in the golden
era
were never happy with what they used to compose , before the
rehearsals. They were trying to give their best and were never happy.
Can it not be a possibility that CR was not happy with whatever he
WAS
tuning , before Roshan came ? Forget for gods sake what is ALREADY
done in the present song, will you all RMIMERs ?
I always liked CR and as I said....I do not believe he had to STUGGLE
to tune the Antaras.
MOORTIMANT....is based ona popular Raga.....all RAGAS are fraemworks
to be used by creative people to build their tune around.
If CR likes MOORTIMANT...nothing wrong ...all of Maharashtra and some
more liked it at that time.
I too like it and I TOO like Ye jindagi Usiki hai...despite the fact
that CR has given many OTHER wonderful tunes which also I like.
Cheers
Vinayak
I LIKE SWEETS NOT NECESSARILY THE HALWAI.
naniwadekar
I will touch upon some points (ubhee vs puDhe) raised so far in this
thread about which I am in a position to comment while telling the
story which has emerged from Suresh Chandvankar' article on the issue.
Shri Ajit Rajwade has written that C Ramchandra was hurt by some
claims made by Lata about 'ye zindagi usi kii hai', and that is
correct. But the problem is not with the song having been inspired by
a natyageet.
I had never doubted, indeed had no 'political' reason to doubt, the
claim that C Ramchandra found inspiration in the tune of 'moortimant
bheetee ubhee' (not 'puDhe'; see: http://www.aathavanitli-gani.com/Song%20Html/821.htm)
and the result was 'ye zindagii usii kii hai', but on a sudden
suspicion decided to play it safe. The tunes are divergent enough that
CR would have to be given credit for adding his stamp to it. Raju
Bharatan has been criticized on this forum several times as noted by
Vijay in the thread, and not without good reason, but in this story I
see no reason to doubt his version. But if any reasonable doubt is
raised, his role can be re-evaluated and his version re-examined.
The moment I heard Hridaynath Mangeshkar claim, earlier this year,
that Roshan had composed antara-s of the song, I smelled a rat;
anybody would. I guessed that a diffident and much junior composer
like Roshan was unlikely to make a suggestion to CR who, while almost
the same age as Roshan (indeed junior to Roshan by a few months), had
been composing music for films for much longer, and could do no wrong
in the eyes of the most prized singer of the day when the famous solo
in Anarkali (1953) was recorded sometime in 1953 (or 1952). CR has
himself touched upon this but I wasn't 100% correct about it. However
CR refuses to accept that Roshan had anything to do with the song.
Roshan died in November 1967. Suresh Chandvankar's article in the
Marathi daily Loksatta, which I have not read in its published form
(but whose draft came to me through a mutual friend), tells us that
Lata wrote an article paying tribute to Roshan within days of Roshan's
death, also in Loksatta. I would not have expected Lata to do so but
it is nice to know that she did. She has always expressed high regard
for 'the unfortunate' Roshan who did not receive his due commensurate
with his talent in terms of popularity. She wrote that Roshan used to
strive to do full justice to his songs (and who would disagree with
this assertion), and was also willing to help other composers. Perhaps
he was, but note the plurality of the occurrence. So far so good. Then
Lata bares her teeth and chooses her case (one case out of the many
she could have chosen from) to illustrate the point with the kind of
delicacy for which the Mangeshkars are famous. "The tune of 'ye
zindagi usi ki hai' was taking shape. The mukhada was ready, but C
Ramchandra could not think of any tune for 'sunaayegii ye daastaa.n,
shamaa mere mazaar kii' and we were stuck. At this time, we met Roshan
by coincidence and told him about the problem. He immediately came to
the studio and composed the tune for the antara in a few minutes. The
song from that point onward (including presumably the 'alvida'
refrain) became famous with listeners due to Roshan's help.' In
January 1968, Raju Bharatan wrote a column in ToI, apparently under
the name 'Raaj'/ 'Raj', titled Lowdown On Lata, and criticized her for
trying to settle scores with C Ramchandra while paying tribute to
Roshan. He asked the same question which is being asked today: 'Why
did Lata not announce the story while Roshan was still alive?'
In 1990s, Raju Bharatan wrote a book on Lata. It was a success. (I had
received it as gift and found it unreadable, much on the lines of the
usual Raju-speak.) It was translated in Marathi. Pages 113 to 117,
either of the original book or the translation, deal with the episode
at length. Raju Bharatan immediately called 'Anna' (C Ramchandra, that
is) upon reading Lata's article, and Shri Kaustubh Pingale is also
encouraged to talk to C Ramchandra and experience the Bhaichara, but
CR was away in Africa. He read Lata's article after returning to India
and was furious. So much for the alleged camaraderie and lily-white
satya-kathan of Golden Era figures from which today's artists are
supposed to learn. Then he sarcastically said: 'Yes, every line I have
composed for Lata was done with others' assistance, and I know nothing
about music.' He was very emotional. Then he added: 'Yes, Roshan was
my friend but when I was composing music for Anarkali, he used to be
deferential towards me. It is true that he was present when I was
composing the tune for the stanza 'sunaayegii ye daastaa.n'. I wanted
a 'jhatka' in a particular style. Roshan, in Lata's presence, thought
it should be done differently. (I must say I am surprised that Roshan
actually made such a suggestion to C Ramchandra.) Such differences of
opinion are routine amongst composers. But my ego would not allow it,
and I recorded it my way. After listening to both sides of that 78
disc, do you really think I could have been hopelessly stuck
anywhere?' Anna-sahab added: 'It is not my claim that I have never
been stuck while composing a tune. But when C Ramchandra faces a
puzzle, he has to find his way out of it. Similarly, when Roshan gets
stuck, he has to depend on HIS skills to find a way.' Then he made HIS
pitch (which we should take with a pinch of salt): 'Lata Mangeshkar
can help neither C Ramchandra nor Roshan (out of such predicament).'
Assuming for a moment that Lata's claim is true, this is a fight she
could not win if and when CR disputed it, as she must surely have
known he would. All the more reason why she should have made it while
Roshan was still around to provide the third party's take, and having
failed to do so, should have kept silent when Roshan died an early
death. Once Roshan was gone, it is curious that she chose a famous
song of the composer with whom she has had a 'history' to make a case
for Roshan's helpful nature. That was 1967/68. With many people from
that era who could evaluate the story properly gone, CR that much less
known amongst today's youngsters and the Mangeshkars still going
strong, Hridaynath brazenly repeated the claim on a very very famous
TV show among Marathi people, apparently under the guise of telling
people how old timers among artists used to be friendly with each
other (I don't remember the context myself). Luckily there are enough
people around even today who know what could be so suspicious about
the story, and a huge controversy ensued.
I knew at once when I heard Hridaynath's story that it was the
Mangeshkars up to their tricks; now, thanks to Suresh Chandvankar's re-
telling of Raju Bharatan's story, the claim designed to deny C
Ramchandra due credit for the song stands thoroughly exposed.
- dn
UVR
(bump)
Afzal A. Khan
> - dn
I have not had the benefit of reading the articles/books referred
to in connection with this controversy.
But there is one thing which needs some clarification. You say
that Raju B. wrote a book on Lata in the 1990s, which (or its
translation) was read by CR after coming back from Africa. AFAIR
CR died in or around 1982. So how did he read a book written in
the 1990s ? Or is there a typo somewhere ?
I am no great admirer of Lata as a person. But even if she had
made such comments in Roshan's lifetime, I doubt whether he would
have come forward to deny the same --- not because he would
have wanted to retain the 'credit', but because he might not have
dared to oppose the mighty singer. Others had done so in the
past and had also paid the price.
Also, the remarks were made around 1967 and CR was to live for
another 15 years or so. He could very well have rebutted the
allegation at that time itself. After all, his career was more
or less over by that time, and he had little to fear about
telling his side of the story.
Mind you, I am not saying that the story is not true or that Lata
is free from blame, nor even that Hridaynath M retold the story
in complete good faith.
Afzal
UVR
I have a very simple request in this regard -- is it possible to find
an audio rendering of the Marathi song (moortimant bheeti ubhe) so
that one may hear it and form one's own opinion as to the extent of
its similarity with "yeh zindagi usiki hai"?
-UVR.
Asif
Can we listen to this song 'dil se bhulaa do tum hame.n' (Patanga,
1949) at least?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glDzf5M_5GY&feature=related
This is the earlier CR song I mentioned elsewhere on this thread that
*I* think sounds similar to 'ye zi.ndagii usii kii hai' (in parts to
its antaraas and in parts to its mukhada). Now if this and the
Anarkali song both are inspired by the Marathi naatyageet mentioned by
Nani, then it is a separate debate.
Asif
UVR
I'm sorry, Asif sb., lekin yeh gaana mujhe kisi bhi "angle" se 'ye
zindagii usiikii hai' ki yaad naheen dilaataa. Other RMIMers may
agree with you, but I just don't see the similarity.
Unless you're saying that the words of 'ye zindagii usiikii' can be
sung in the tune of 'dil se bhulaa do tum.' That's I'd have no problem
agreeing with, but then I don't see the relevance.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
>>
>> I had never doubted, indeed had no 'political' reason to doubt, the
>> claim that C Ramchandra found inspiration in the tune of 'moortimant
>> bheetee ubhee' (not 'puDhe'; see:http://www.aathavanitli-gani.com/Song%20Html/821.htm)
>> and the result was 'ye zindagii usii kii hai', but on a sudden
>> suspicion decided to play it safe. The tunes are divergent enough that
>> CR would have to be given credit for adding his stamp to it.
>> - dn
>
> I have a very simple request in this regard -- is it possible to find
> an audio rendering of the Marathi song (moortimant bheeti ubhe) so
> that one may hear it and form one's own opinion as to the extent of
> its similarity with "yeh zindagi usiki hai"?
>
> -UVR.
I made the same requst four days back.
Nani has given a reference to the Natyageet in his post.
But there is no audio. Also, it seems that it is from a
drama or 'NaaTak" that is more than a hundred years old,
viz. 1899. To my (limited) knowledge, the tunes of such
Natyageets are traditional. So one should assume that the
song in question had been heard for about 50 years before
CR sat down to compose the tune for "Yeh zindagi...".
Another point to be noted is that the Marathi geet is set
to Raag Bhimpalaas(i). I don't know much about classical
raagas, but can we say that "Yeh zindagi" is also based on
the same raaga ?
On the other hand, Roshan is credited with composing a very
fine song on the above Raaga (from "Naubahar"). Is it possible
that Lata somehow found some connection between these three
separate links ?
Here is a list of some film songs that are based on the above
Raag :
Veena, madhur madhur kuchh bol (Ram Rajya 1943)
Aaj mere man men sakhi baansuri bajaaye koi (Aan 1951)
Eri maiN to prem diwaani mera dard na jaane koye (Naubahaar 1952)
AasmaaN waale teri duniya se dil ghabra gaya (Laila Majnu 1953)
Aa neel gagan tale pyaar hum kareN (Badshah 1956)
Khilte haiN gul yahaaN (Sharmilee 1971)
It should be possible to examine the similarity (if any) in
the notes/tunes of these songs vis-a-vis the "Anarkali" song.
Afzal
naniwadekar
Afzal Sahab: Lata's tribute to Roshan was published in Nov 1967. Raju
Bharatan immediately contacted C Ramchandra for his reaction, but CR
had gone to Africa. I do not know when he returned from the trip to
India. Raju Bharatan's retort 'Lowdown on Lata' was published in Times
of India on 06 Jan 1968, and I have just received (an hour ago) its
scan from Shri Suresh Chandvankar. I asked him for it because I myself
had some of the questions which you have raised in your post, and your
post made me even more eager to read Raju's 1968 snippet. CR died in
January 1982. Raju Bharatan's book was published in 1994(ish) and I
zipped through it in 1995. I don't think I read this episode in the
book at all. If I did, I had completely forgotten about it. There was
no typo in my post about any year, but I hope this detailed
explanation makes things clear.
I don't know when CR refuted Lata's charge so strongly to Raju
Bharatan but it was clearly AFTER RB submitted the Jan 1968 article.
As it happens, the article signed 'Raj' by RB in Jan 1968 did not
quote CR at all. (I did not know this when I made my last post.) CR's
answer to Lata may or may not have appeared in print during his
lifetime. You say that 'CR could very well have rebutted the
allegation at that time itself'. Of course that would have been very
desirable. May be he did, but we do not know about it. 'Raj' has
pulled no punches in denouncing Lata: 'her singular lack of grace in
an article that is supposed to be her tribute to the memory of a great
composer (Roshan)', 'subtle innuendo', 'characteristic feminine
petulance', 'the episode shows Lata in poor light', and 'if she had a
score to settle with CR, she could have chosen a better occasion to do
so'. But 'Raj' clearly did not know CR's take on it in Jan 1968
because he says: 'It is quite possible that CR consulted Roshan about
the tune'. In 1994, RB told us that according to CR, he did no such
thing. Roshan offered advice, which CR did not seem to mind, but CR
did the song his own way.
I must add that the famous muck-raking chapter in CR's autobiography
(Marathi title: maajhyaa jeevanaachee saragam; I don't think the book
has been translated in any other language) is utterly graceless, too.
Neither side emerges with credit from the feud.
I had read, long ago, that around 1970 or so there had floated a
rumour that Lata had undergone tests for throat cancer, and it reached
CR. When it was confirmed that it was a false scare (or that it was a
baseless rumour and Lata never underwent any such test at all), CR
forgot the bad blood and celebrated the good news with his close
friends over alcohol. When his health deteriorated, he returned
letters which he had received from Lata during their friendship back
to her, fearing that his wife may misuse them after his death. The
letters were returned through Ranjit Desai IIRC and their mutual
friend Behere had seen them. If it wasn't Behere, it was some other
writer whom I used to read regularly around the time that CR died. But
Behere it most certainly was who talked to Lata about her plan for
autobiography. 'Are you going to write about this?' No. 'About that?'
Nyet. 'Autobiography is written to talk about important things in
life, not to hide them. Why do you want to write it at all?' Hence or
otehrwise, Lata dropped her plan to write it.
While at it, Shirish Kanekar's article on CR, published during CR's
lifetime after a meeting between the two, opens with a story which
Kanekar heard from Raju Bharatan. This was before Kanekar had ever met
Lata. It is said that since their first meeting in 1982, Kanekar has
often done Lata's bidding. At a Sangeet Rajani in Brabourne Stadium
(1976-77-ish), Dilip Kumar introduced Lata and narrated how she had
made Nehru cry in 1963; then Lata proceeded to sing 'ai mere vatan ke
logo'. The only thing Dilip forgot to mention was the composer's name.
CR was loitering around and when Dilip came down from the stage, CR
intimidatingly confronted him. 'Well done, Yusuf; you forgot the thing
it was convenient to forget'. Yusuf protested: 'Anna, mujhe sach-much
nahii.n pataa thaa ki dhun aap kii hai. Nobody can dictate to me what
to say and what not.' CR shot back: 'Come off it, Yusuf. Once upon a
time nobody dared to tell CR either. These days they tell me and they
tell you, too.' CR had recalled how Dilip Kumar was in love with
Kamini Kaushal and CR with xxxx at the same time, and that four of
them used to travel around a lot.
.
Lata definitely chooses her stories with great care. How about 'naa-
ummeed hoke bhii', the Lata solo for CR from Sangeeta marked by other-
worldly brilliance. Lata's insouciant putdown is that CR had played
its Western Original to her, subtly hinting that it makes the song
ordinary to her because it was 'inspired'. Well, I know it now, too,
that it was not CR's original idea. It does not lessen the glory of
the song one bit. As a friend of mine once said to me, if Lata does
not like all songs by CR for some reason or the other, she deserves to
listen to Laxmi-Pyare's 'chalo sajanaa, jahaaN tak ghaTaa chale' for
the rest of her life.
- dn
Atul Thombre
news:h6kkjh$o7i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I have the Marathi translation and the page references given above are
correct as well as the naration of the story. Its a different matter about
its authenticity.
>
> But there is one thing which needs some clarification. You say
> that Raju B. wrote a book on Lata in the 1990s, which (or its
> translation) was read by CR after coming back from Africa. AFAIR
> CR died in or around 1982. So how did he read a book written in
> the 1990s ? Or is there a typo somewhere ?
The original article by Lata M. was published in 1967 when Roshan passed
away. Reading that article, RB called CR to find out the "truth" behind it.
All this is included in the book that he wrote which was published in the
90s.
Atul.
Asif
standing curiosity now. This song has these lines:
sunaayegii ye daastaa.N shamaa mere mazaar kii
Kizaa.N me.n bhii khilii rahii ye kalii anaar kii
ise mazaar mat kaho ye mahal hai pyaar kaa
Whenever I listened to this song (and these lines) in those boyhood
days, I always thought, "mai.n kab ise mazaar kah rahaa huu.N, tum Kud
hii ise mazaar bataa rahii ho aur phir kah rahii ho ki ise mazaar mat
kaho'.
Is this type of contradiction in Urdu poetry normal (I never found a
parallel though)? Or lyricist Rajinder Krishan, a very successful
lyricist in HFM for over 2 decades but not a good poet, was merely
resorting to rhyming?
Asif
Afzal A. Khan
> Afzal Sahab: Lata's tribute to Roshan was published in Nov 1967. Raju
> Bharatan immediately contacted C Ramchandra for his reaction, but CR
> had gone to Africa. I do not know when he returned from the trip to
> India. Raju Bharatan's retort 'Lowdown on Lata' was published in Times
> of India on 06 Jan 1968, and I have just received (an hour ago) its
> scan from Shri Suresh Chandvankar. I asked him for it because I myself
> had some of the questions which you have raised in your post, and your
> post made me even more eager to read Raju's 1968 snippet. CR died in
> January 1982. Raju Bharatan's book was published in 1994(ish) and I
> zipped through it in 1995. I don't think I read this episode in the
> book at all. If I did, I had completely forgotten about it.
> Lata definitely chooses her stories with great care. How about 'naa-
> ummeed hoke bhii', the Lata solo for CR from Sangeeta marked by other-
> worldly brilliance. Lata's insouciant putdown is that CR had played
> its Western Original to her, subtly hinting that it makes the song
> ordinary to her because it was 'inspired'. Well, I know it now, too,
> that it was not CR's original idea. It does not lessen the glory of
> the song one bit. As a friend of mine once said to me, if Lata does
> not like all songs by CR for some reason or the other, she deserves to
> listen to Laxmi-Pyare's 'chalo sajanaa, jahaaN tak ghaTaa chale' for
> the rest of her life.
> - dn
Thanks for the clarification. Now how about my request (which
has been repeated or 'seconded' by UVR) ? Is it possible to
listen to the original Marathi geet ? Also, we would all like
to have your input about the raag/s associated with the TWO
songs. {Please see another post of mine in this connection.}
And, frankly, we would all appreciate if you could give us
English translations of the Marathi articles (and relevant
excerpts from Marathi books). That would lend greater authen-
ticity to your reportage and conclusions.
Afzal
naniwadekar
> naniwadekar wrote:
>
> has been repeated or 'seconded' by UVR) ? Is it possible to
> listen to the original Marathi geet ? Also, we would all like
> to have your input about the raag/s associated with the TWO
> songs. {Please see another post of mine in this connection.}
>
I don't have the Raju Bharatan book; will translate Chandvankar's
article if time permits.
I would like to hear Sanjeev Ramabhadran's opinion about the tunes
instead of adding my lay impressions to the discussion. Professor
Saheb has the Marathi Natyageet, sung as a film song by Lata, with
him. Hopefully he will make it available to all readers (instead of me
mailing it to only a few of them) after he returns from Legoland.
- dn
UVR
Abhay Phadnis has sent me an mp3 of "moortimant" in Lata's voice. I
don't know if I am allowed to share it with anyone else.
When I hear it, I do see some similarity with "yeh zindagi usiki hai",
but it's more at the macro-level (i.e., same raga, identical taala
+laya) than at the level of "this tune was copied and reworked into
yeh zindagi".
-UVR.
UVR
>
> As a friend of mine once said to me, if Lata does
> not like all songs by CR for some reason or the other, she deserves to
> listen to Laxmi-Pyare's 'chalo sajanaa, jahaaN tak ghaTaa chale' for
> the rest of her life.
>
> - dn
Your friend was right on track, but way off the mark. Or maybe you
are slightly misremembering what he said. For the one that's actually
fit to be called a "sentence" is suno (not chalo) sajnaa: suno sajnaa,
papeehe ne kahaa sab se pukaar ke'.
-UVR.
abhayphadnis
(snip)
>
> Abhay Phadnis has sent me an mp3 of "moortimant" in Lata's voice. I
> don't know if I am allowed to share it with anyone else.
Please do! Am travelling with restricted Internet access, else I would
have uploaded it on some common site myself.
Warm regards,
Abhay
surjit singh
kcp
> As it happens, the article signed 'Raj' by RB in Jan 1968 did not
> quote CR at all.
RB Zindabaad !!
> In 1994, RB told us that according to CR, he did no such
> thing. Roshan offered advice, which CR did not seem to mind, but CR
> did the song his own way.
Ditto
> While at it, Shirish Kanekar's article on CR, published during CR's
> lifetime after a meeting between the two, opens with a story which
> Kanekar heard from Raju Bharatan.
Ditto !!
We cannot expect CR, Lata, Roshan, et all, to come out in press , at
a drop of a hat, refuting or accepting claims.
It seems that history of HFM is written by RB the Great !! Wah wah !!
Chandvankar and the gang is coming out and "exposing the Mangeshkars
for the fraud that everybody knows they are" - MY FOOT !! Guys like
these must be shot on the spot.
Afzal A. Khan
>>
>>> naniwadekar wrote:
I have now heard the Marathi geet put up by the Professor on his
website. There is certainly some resemblance. But, to my mind,
it is more like the commonality of notes between songs based on
the same raag. Can we say that "Ik shahenshah ne banwa ke haseeN
Taj Mahal" is a direct lift from (or inspired by) "Tu hai mera
prem devta" ?
On a side note, the above Marathi geet reminds me vaguely of some
old Telugu film song, but I can't pinpoint the same. Maybe it
had the word "anuraagam" in the lyrics. But, then, at least 50 %
of old Telugu film songs had that word !!
I have experienced this feeling (of commonality of notes) quite
acutely in the case of songs based on Bhairavi. You start
humming the words of one song and then, without realizing it, you
seem to be gliding into another song.
How about CR's "Kaise aaooN Jamuna ke teer" ? Should we call it
plagiarism ?
Afzal
Aditya
mentioned that Lata had suggested them the tune of Meri Patli Kamar
Lambe Baal (Mere Laal 1966) based on a folk song from her
grandmother's village. He went on to say that she suggested the same
to CR for Tu Na Aaya Aur Hone Lagi Shaam (Aasha 1957). The intent of
this post is not to provide fuel to the debate on 'Mangeshkar lies'
and facts, but to ask if anyone has that folk song for one to listen.
Aditya
kcp
>
>
> I have now heard the Marathi geet put up by the Professor on his
> website. There is certainly some resemblance. But, to my mind,
> it is more like the commonality of notes between songs based on
> the same raag.
But "we" are not sure if "CR himself was the source of the story or it
was floated by
sources intent on maligning him" !! So where do we go from here ?
Stamp on the story as a real one and pass it on to the generations ala
RB ??
Ahmad
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Dil say bhulado tum hamein, is among Lata's best, and it would be in
my best 10 list of Lata's. I can not hear similarity with "Yeh
zindagi usee ki haye ".
While listening to the Marathi song kindly posted by Surjit Singh; as
the music started, I thought I was going to listen to another Lata
song in Hindi/Urdu "Aayee aayee ,,,,,, sun laye khushi ki kahani ". I
have this song and I think it is in 2 parts, sung on some one's
anniversary; also a very nice song.
Ahmad
Afzal A. Khan
>>> I have a very simple request in this regard -- is it possible to find
>>> an audio rendering of the Marathi song (moortimant bheeti ubhe) so
>>> that one may hear it and form one's own opinion as to the extent of
>>> its similarity with "yeh zindagi usiki hai"?
>>> -UVR.
>> Can we listen to this song 'dil se bhulaa do tum hame.n' (Patanga,
>> 1949) at least?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glDzf5M_5GY&feature=related
>>
>> This is the earlier CR song I mentioned elsewhere on this thread that
>> *I* think sounds similar to 'ye zi.ndagii usii kii hai' (in parts to
>> its antaraas and in parts to its mukhada). Now if this and the
>> Anarkali song both are inspired by the Marathi naatyageet mentioned by
>> Nani, then it is a separate debate.
>>
>> Asif
> "Dil say bhulado tum hamein, is among Lata's best, and it would be in
> my best 10 list of Lata's. I can not hear similarity with "Yeh
> zindagi usee ki haye ".
>
> While listening to the Marathi song kindly posted by Surjit Singh; as
> the music started, I thought I was going to listen to another Lata
> song in Hindi/Urdu "Aayee aayee ,,,,,, sun laye khushi ki kahani ". I
> have this song and I think it is in 2 parts, sung on some one's
> anniversary; also a very nice song.
>
> Ahmad
"Aayee aayee raat suhaani" is from the film "Poonam", a 1952
film, stg. Ashok Kumar, Kamini Kaushal and Sajjan. It is
in fact a lullaby sung to a very young girl. It has a sad
version too. Music by Shankar Jaikishan.
Afzal
Ahmad
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, exactly. I have the 2 versions. It is a lullaby. I did not see
the film.
Why can't the present music directors learn from their peers and come
up with something good.
1958 - 2009 is a long enough gap.
Ahmad
Sreenivas Paruchuri
mind. But, the influence of Marathi naaTya-sangiit (you can see that in
the compositions of P. Adinarayanarao and Pendyala Nageswararao.) and
esp. of Bal Gandharva has been tremendous on Telugu stage and film music
of pre-1940s. BG's "muurtimanta bhiiti ubha" was an extraordinarily
popular song on Telugu stage of 1920s and 30s. Famous singer, stage
actor, and later film personality: KalyaaNam Raghuraamayya (real name:
K. VenkaTasubbayya and popularly known as eelapaaTa Raghuramayya.) used
to make his stage appearance singing the Telugu adaptation of this song.
On a side note, Adinarayanarao used the same "ye jindagii usii ki hai"
tune in the Telugu version: "jiivitamE saphalamu raagasudhaa bharitamu
..." (anaarkali, 1955). Jikki sang it really well.
Regards,
Sreenivas
Atul Shah
> On Aug 20, 12:26 am, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I will touch upon some points (ubhee vs puDhe) raised so far in this
> > thread about which I am in a position to comment while telling the
> > story which has emerged from Suresh Chandvankar' article on the issue.
>
> > claims made by Lata about 'ye zindagi usi kii hai', and that is
> > correct. But the problem is not with the song having been inspired by
> > a natyageet.
>
> > I had never doubted, indeed had no 'political' reason to doubt, the
> > shamaa mere mazaar kii' and we were stuck. At this time, we met Roshan
> > by coincidence and told him about the problem. He immediately came to
> > the studio and composed the tune for the antara in a few minutes. The
> > song from that point onward (including presumably the 'alvida'
> > refrain) became famous with listeners due to Roshan's help.' In
> > January 1968, Raju Bharatan wrote a column in ToI, apparently under
> > the name 'Raaj'/ 'Raj', titled Lowdown On Lata, and criticized her for
> > Roshan. He asked the same question which is being asked today: 'Why
> > did Lata not announce the story while Roshan was still alive?'
>
> > In 1990s, Raju Bharatan wrote a book on Lata. It was a success. (I had
> > received it as gift and found it unreadable, much on the lines of the
> > usual Raju-speak.) It was translated in Marathi. Pages 113 to 117,
> > either of the original book or the translation, deal with the episode
> > is) upon reading Lata's article, and Shri Kaustubh Pingale is also
> > CR was away in Africa. He read Lata's article after returning to India
> > and was furious. So much for the alleged camaraderie and lily-white
> > satya-kathan of Golden Era figures from which today's artists are
> > supposed to learn. Then he sarcastically said: 'Yes, every line I have
> > composed for Lata was done with others' assistance, and I know nothing
> > about music.' He was very emotional. Then he added: 'Yes, Roshan was
> > my friend but when I was composing music for Anarkali, he used to be
> > deferential towards me. It is true that he was present when I was
> > composing the tune for the stanza 'sunaayegii ye daastaa.n'. I wanted
> > a 'jhatka' in a particular style. Roshan, in Lata's presence, thought
> > it should be done differently. (I must say I am surprised that Roshan
> > opinion are routine amongst composers. But my ego would not allow it,
> > and I recorded it my way. After listening to both sides of that 78
> > disc, do you really think I could have been hopelessly stuck
> > anywhere?' Anna-sahab added: 'It is not my claim that I have never
> > puzzle, he has to find his way out of it. Similarly, when Roshan gets
> > stuck, he has to depend on HIS skills to find a way.' Then he made HIS
> > pitch (which we should take with a pinch of salt): 'Lata Mangeshkar
>
> > Assuming for a moment that Lata's claim is true, this is a fight she
> > could not win if and when CR disputed it, as she must surely have
> > known he would. All the more reason why she should have made it while
> > Roshan was still around to provide the third party's take, and having
> > failed to do so, should have kept silent when Roshan died an early
> > death. Once Roshan was gone, it is curious that she chose a famous
> > song of the composer with whom she has had a 'history' to make a case
> > for Roshan's helpful nature. That was 1967/68. With many people from
> > that era who could evaluate the story properly gone, CR that much less
> > known amongst today's youngsters and the Mangeshkars still going
> > strong, Hridaynath brazenly repeated the claim on a very very famous
> > TV show among Marathi people, apparently under the guise of telling
> > people how old timers among artists used to be friendly with each
> > other (I don't remember the context myself). Luckily there are enough
> > people around even today who know what could be so suspicious about
> > the story, and a huge controversy ensued.
>
> > I knew at once when I heard Hridaynath's story that it was the
> > Mangeshkars up to their tricks; now, thanks to Suresh Chandvankar's re-
> > telling of Raju Bharatan's story, the claim designed to denyC
>
> > - dn
>
> I have a very simple request in this regard -- is it possible to find
> an audio rendering of the Marathi song (moortimant bheeti ubhe) so
> that one may hear it and form one's own opinion as to the extent of
> its similarity with "yeh zindagi usiki hai"?
>
> -UVR.
find
> an audio rendering of the Marathi song (moortimant bheeti ubhe) so
> that one may hear it and form one's own opinion as to the extent of
I don't think it will help. I have heard a story ( as told in one of
the musical program according to which C.Ramchandra told that the tune
of Yeh zindagi was based upon the moortimant song which his father
used to sing while taking bath. When somebody ( Aacharya Atre ???)
pointed out that this is not the tune of Murtimant, C.Ramchandra said
"... but this is how my father used to sing...". Thus the credit for
Yeh zindgi should be given to C.Ramchandra's father !!!
V BHATT
Does any one have idea about CR's family & where they are right now?
V Bhatt
AR
I have seen a TV interview of Lata in which she hums this folk song
from her grandmother's village. I forgot the lyrics of the song. Based
on what I remember of this tune, it can certainly count as an
inspiration to "Tu na aayaa aur hone lagi shaam re".
kkg
close to--aasmaan waale teri duniya se jee ghabhra gaya,jal gaya dil
soz e gham se jab koi yaad aa gaya,aasman waale teri....
kkg
naniwadekar
At one point during the discussion on RMIM on who composed 'ye zindagi
usi ki hai', I initiated an email talk with Suresh Chandvankar about
the article which he had written. He sent me several newspaper clips
in jpg format. He also wanted the article to be translated into
English (which I did) and shared with anybody who may have interest in
it. I have already told the full story, but I will post the
translation of Chandvankar's article soon.
Interestingly, Chandvankar had first defended Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
First a reader objected that HM should have told the story when both C
Ramchandra and Roshan were alive, or when CR's autobiography was
published (which was probably after Roshan's death), containing the
claim that he had based 'ye zindagi' on a natyageet in Sangeet
Sharada. Sureshji supported HM in general terms, that what he (HM) was
telling about old songs amounted to 'oral history' which has always
played a large part in Indian music discussions. That is correct, but
it lent indirect support to HM's claim that Roshan helped with the
tune of 'ye zindagi'. Chandvankar told me: 'With my letter several
persons showed displeasure. They asked me to take a firm stand and
find out the truth. That prompted me to write that article after some
investigations.'
Chandvankar asked me to add a parenthetical explanation to the
article, which I have done, which I had intended to offer via the
following prefatory note. Suresh Wadkar kept referring to Hridaynath
as Mamasaheb. The explanation is that he considers Lata to be
Saraswati Mata, and Mata's brother is Mama. HM's detractors, not
surprisingly, picked it up and have referred to HM as Mamasaheb
sarcastically over last few weeks.
I had been told that Wadkar does not suck up, and had paid the price
for his uncompromising nature in his career. Nothing I saw during the
show necessarily contradicts the story, and yet there was a bit too
much of mutual admiration gong on between HM and Wadkar, and even more
by HM and Wadkar towards Lata, who made one guest appearance, and, as
she most often does, spoke briefly, deliberately, artificially and
unconvincingly. Wadkar also deferred a lot to HM and would sometimes
take back his comments, but I don't see anything wrong with it. HM was
generous in his grading and consistently gave higher grades than
Wadkar or other judges. Devki Pandit, Padmaja Phenani-Jogalekar who
got a Padmashri by singing a few Vajpayee songs for a CD release
BEFORE her guru Hridaynath was awarded it recently (an award he should
have rejected since it does not do justice to his stature), Shridhar
Phadke, Ravindra Sathe, Ashok Patki and Asha Khadilkar also judged the
contest for an episode or two. None of the singers, including the
winner Hrishikesh Ranade, were much good in my opinion, which would
not surprise any rmim-er who knows my distaste for modern music and
musicians. But I, a fan of Saigal and Boral and Amirbai and Khemchand,
admit a bias against most modern singers. The participants were aged
between 20 and 30 (I think 30 was the limit), and a younger woman
named Madhura Datar came into her own during the contest and gave one
or two sensationally good performances. A contestant named Udesh Umap
showed great flair for folk songs and was praised by HM for it.
Pushkar Lele did not tow the standard Mangeshkar line; he is a fan of
Kumar Gandharva and more into pure classical than light music. He was
reasonably good but was eliminated early because, so goes the opinion,
HM and Wadkar favoured people who sang Mangeshkar songs. Then there
was Vibhavari Apte-Joshi, who shows flashes of Lata in her singing,
especially in her sur though she is iffy with laya in difficult songs
while Lata is the acknowledged master of laya. I first noticed
Vibhavari Apte in 2003/4 and remember sending one of her songs to
Sanjeev Ramabhadran. More about her some other day. And there was the
flute player, Amar Oke/Oak, who faltered only a tiny bit in 2-3 most
difficult songs and was otherwise quite brilliant. HM called him
'dusare Hariprasad', and deservedly so. A pity that there is no Anil
Biswas, CR, Ghulam Mohammed, Roshan, Shankar, Jaikishan, Jnan Dutt
around today to do justice to Apte Bai's (written aapaTe, pronounced
aapTe) or Amar Oak's potential. While Apte got 100% rating from the
judges, bozo Marathi listeners favoured other singers and she was
eliminated from the mega-final. That was a blessing because the mega-
final had a stupid flavour to it. I did not like to see a well-
mannered woman like Madhura Datar subjected to the cheapness and was
glad that Apte Bai was eliminated. HM told her that he was very very
sad to see her eliminated. Like Lata, Apte Bai's voice has started
deteriorating in late 20s. But Lata had done enough in her early 20s
to last several lifetimes and Vibhavari Apte has hardly anything to
show for her wasted genius.
A few years ago, the Mangeshkars organized a function to anoint
Hridaynath 'pandit' at the hands of Bhimsen Joshi. Ever since, HM is
'Panditji' to his admirers and enjoys the title. When I first heard
Wadkar call him Mamasaheb, I though it was being done to avoid calling
him 'Panditji', and maybe it was. But Wadkar did play the 'Lata =
Saraswati Mata' angle to the point that it got terribly boring. Some
people, like Shridhar Phadke, referred to Hridaynath as 'Balasaheb',
as he has been addressed for quite long. Just as it is easy for
Gavaskar's partner to creep into 20s and 30s unnoticed because
everybody else is following only Gavaskar's progress into 80s and 90s
towards yet another 100, it is easy to forget that Hridaynath himself
is quite old, since one always thinks of him as Lata's younger one.
But 'young' is a relative term. He probably keeps his hair black to
avoid embarrassing Lata.
On this profound note ....
.
- dn
naniwadekar
>
> Devki Pandit, Padmaja Phenani-Jogalekar, Shridhar
> Phadke, Ravindra Sathe, Ashok Patki and Asha Khadilkar also judged the
> contest for an episode or two.
>
A young guy named Avdhut Gupte was among the judges for an episode or
two, but practically every contestant was more qualified than this
'judge' who had the cheek to present a cheap take on Lata's
composition 'bai bai manamoraachaa' in an episode. Shamelessness can
take you far in today's film world. People breathed a sigh of relief
that the vulgarian was soon dropped.
Wadkar sang quite often while offering comments, Hridaynath rarely so.
I only remember one occasion when Lata's 'ye javaLii ghe javaLii' was
sung. It is officially Meena Mangeshkar's composition but I refuse to
believe it is anybody's but Hridaynath's, who was Meena's Ghulam
Mohammed. But the point is apparently mostly moot because Hridaynath
said it was based on a classical composition in Yaman which Dinanath
used to sing. Hridaynath sang that composition for a minute or two.
A few episodes had a non-Marathi judge join Mamasaheb Mangeshkar and
Bhanje Wadkar. Hariprasad Chaurasia made an appearance. A young guy
whom Wadkar called 'Hari' (some Hariharan, IIRC) also made an
appearance. By young, I mean someone under 60, someone between 20 and
60 who has never sung a song for Punkaj Mullick or Dada Chandekar or
Shyam Sundar. He was mesmerized by Vibhavari Apte's rendition of
'kaLaa jyaa laagalyaa jeevaa' and asked her to repeat the line about
'that nadi'. I thought of the line 'nadii langhuun je gele' but Apte
correctly guessed that he was thinking of 'nadiilaa puur haa loTe'.
She sang it without accompaniment and both Hari(haran?) and Hridaynath
could not praise it enough. 'What a voice you have', HM said. It
wasn't necessary since his face had already spoken volumes. If you
like Lata, you will almost certainly like Vibhavari Apte. If you like
Asha, well... then you will probably like anything, the worse the
better.
.
- dn
naniwadekar
Original article in Marathi: Suresh Chandvankar.
Translation in English: Dhananjay Naniwadekar
If a theoretical exercise is carried out for fun to choose just one
song as the very best among Hindi Film Songs, which number close to
seventy-thousand by now, 'ye zindagi usi ki hai' from the film
‘Anarkali’ will surely be in contention. Because of this stature that
the song has been accorded by music lovers, fans of C Ramchandra and
followers of film music were pained by the recent controversy
questioning who should get the credit for the composition. Today,
neither Roshan nor C Ramchandra is amidst us to present their version
of the story. That is why several people have objected to Hridaynath
Mangeshkar’s claim, made from the platform of Idea SaReGaMaPa TV
programme, that seventy-five per cent of the credit for the song
belongs to Roshan. Only Lata Mangeshkar could tell the correct story
now, if she so desired. In such cases, existing literature on the
subject can also come handy. Luckily, NCPA’s Wadia Library in South
Mumbai has archived several books and rare newspaper cuttings, and
they are generously made available to reasearchers. The archives do
contain information about this song. Its acquaintance would provide
vital help to students of the subject.
The germ of the controversy lies in an old article by Latadidi.
Composer Roshan died on 16 November 1967. A tribute by Lata Mangeshkar
was published in the Marathi daily ‘Loksatta’ on 18 November 1967. She
wrote: 'Roshan was a compleat music composer. There was something
quite different about his music. His compositions had pure Indian
base. He had made deep study of classical music. Not only did he
compose his own songs with due responsibility and involvement, but on
occasion he sincerely offered help to other composers. I remember an
incident clearly. ‘Ye zindagi usi ki hai’, the famous song in
‘Anarkali’, was taking shape. Its dhruvapad (mukhada) was ready. But
C. Ramchandra was confused about composing the tune of the antara
‘sunaayegi ye daastaan, shama mere mazaar kii’ and the song was stuck.
By sheer coincidence, we met Roshan this time and explained our
difficulty. He immediately came to the recording room and composed a
beautiful tune in only a few minutes. Thus, thanks to Roshan’s
generous help, the song from ‘sunaayegi ye daastaaN’ onwards became
especially dear to listeners.'
It’s not known what reactions were offered by Marathi readers to
newspapers about this article. But 'Raj' (Raju Bharatan) wrote an
article in English about it, which was published in 'Times of India'
on 6 January 1968. It was titled ‘Lowdown on Lata’, and he asked the
same question which is being raised today. 'Why wasn’t the information
made public while Roshan was still alive?' Raju Bharatan had
castigated the singer for trying to settle scores with C. Ramchandra
under the garb of paying fulsome tribute to Roshan. It’s not known
whether Latadidi had responded to the article.
Several years passed. In 1994, Raju Bharatan, the well-known film
journalist, wrote the book ‘Lata Mangeshkar: A Biography’ in English.
The book registered brisk sales. Within an year, Leena Sohoni
translated the book into Marathi and Mehta Prakashan published it.
There is a chapter in it titled 'Marathi Noor Jehan'. A detailed
explanation about the original short retort by Raju Bharatan was
published on pages 113 to 117. This was the explanation: 'It would be
an understatement to say that I was stumped by (Lata’s) article in
Marathi. I immediately phoned Anna (C. Ramchandra). But he had gone to
Africa. I got in touch with him as soon as he returned to India. I
read out Latadidi’s charge against him (that he was stuck for the
tune) from the original article in Marathi. He was furious. Then he
said: ‘Yes, every line I have composed for Lata was done with the help
of other composers. I understand nothing about music.’ He became very
emotional. After the anger and hurt had somewhat subsided, he added:
‘Yes, Roshan was my friend. But I composed the song in the early
1950s, and in those days he was deferential towards me. It is true
that he was present, by pure coincidence, when I was composing the
tune for the stanza, ‘sunaayegi ye daastaan’. In that line, I wanted
a particular ‘jhatka’. Roshan thought a different type of swing to the
notes should be employed. These differences in approach are routine
between two creative minds. He made the suggestion in Lata’s presence.
But my ego would not allow it. I had Lata record the ‘jhatka’ exactly
as I had envisaged it, ignoring Roshan’s suggestion. Do you really
think that I might have got stuck after listening to the song?’'
Not just Raju Bharatan, but a huge majority of afficionadoes do not
think even today that C. Ramchandra would have needed help for the
song. Annasahab had himself added: ‘I am not suggesting at all that I
have never been stuck. But if C. Ramchandra faces such a hurdle, he
himself has to find a way out of it. Similarly a Roshan has to rely on
his wits to overcome the challenges which he faces. Lata Mangeshkar
can help neither Roshan, nor C. Ramchandra.’
C. Ramchandra’s reminiscence is particularly noteworthy. Mamasaheb
['Hridayanath': is addressed as ‘Mamasaheb’ on this television show by
Suresh Wadkar] Mangeshkar (b. 1937) was 13-14 when the song was
composed. He tried to pass off 75 per cent of the credit to Roshan. If
such attempts to spread misinformation are allowed to succeed,
'famous' names in the next generation will try to deny all the credit
to artists whom they do not favour. And nobody will have been left to
properly evaluate the claims. Most of the ‘emperors’ and ‘empresses’
who make it to the very top of their profession tend to write history
to suit their own conveniences. A fiction repeated often enough by the
famous names gradually comes to be taken for fact. It looks like the
field of music is also not being spared such attempts. Music lovers
have begun to suspect whether the pulpit of the hugely popular ‘Idea
SaReGaMaPa’ music competition on a famous TV channel is being
willfully misused to distort history.
----------------
Afzal A. Khan
> Revisiting - �ye zindagi usi ki hai�
>
> Original article in Marathi: Suresh Chandvankar.
> Translation in English: Dhananjay Naniwadekar
>
>
> If a theoretical exercise is carried out for fun to choose just one
> song as the very best among Hindi Film Songs, which number close to
> seventy-thousand by now, 'ye zindagi usi ki hai' from the film
> �Anarkali� will surely be in contention. Because of this stature that
> the song has been accorded by music lovers, fans of C Ramchandra and
> followers of film music were pained by the recent controversy
> questioning who should get the credit for the composition. Today,
> neither Roshan nor C Ramchandra is amidst us to present their version
> of the story. That is why several people have objected to Hridaynath
> Mangeshkar�s claim, made from the platform of Idea SaReGaMaPa TV
> programme, that seventy-five per cent of the credit for the song
> belongs to Roshan. Only Lata Mangeshkar could tell the correct story
> now, if she so desired. In such cases, existing literature on the
> subject can also come handy. Luckily, NCPA�s Wadia Library in South
> Mumbai has archived several books and rare newspaper cuttings, and
> they are generously made available to reasearchers. The archives do
> contain information about this song. Its acquaintance would provide
> vital help to students of the subject.
>
> The germ of the controversy lies in an old article by Latadidi.
> Composer Roshan died on 16 November 1967. A tribute by Lata Mangeshkar
> was published in the Marathi daily �Loksatta� on 18 November 1967. She
> wrote: 'Roshan was a compleat music composer. There was something
> quite different about his music. His compositions had pure Indian
> base. He had made deep study of classical music. Not only did he
> compose his own songs with due responsibility and involvement, but on
> occasion he sincerely offered help to other composers. I remember an
> incident clearly. �Ye zindagi usi ki hai�, the famous song in
> �Anarkali�, was taking shape. Its dhruvapad (mukhada) was ready. But
> C. Ramchandra was confused about composing the tune of the antara
> �sunaayegi ye daastaan, shama mere mazaar kii� and the song was stuck.
> By sheer coincidence, we met Roshan this time and explained our
> difficulty. He immediately came to the recording room and composed a
> beautiful tune in only a few minutes. Thus, thanks to Roshan�s
> generous help, the song from �sunaayegi ye daastaaN� onwards became
> especially dear to listeners.'
>
> It�s not known what reactions were offered by Marathi readers to
> newspapers about this article. But 'Raj' (Raju Bharatan) wrote an
> article in English about it, which was published in 'Times of India'
> on 6 January 1968. It was titled �Lowdown on Lata�, and he asked the
> same question which is being raised today. 'Why wasn�t the information
> made public while Roshan was still alive?' Raju Bharatan had
> castigated the singer for trying to settle scores with C. Ramchandra
> under the garb of paying fulsome tribute to Roshan. It�s not known
> whether Latadidi had responded to the article.
>
> Several years passed. In 1994, Raju Bharatan, the well-known film
> journalist, wrote the book �Lata Mangeshkar: A Biography� in English.
> The book registered brisk sales. Within an year, Leena Sohoni
> translated the book into Marathi and Mehta Prakashan published it.
> There is a chapter in it titled 'Marathi Noor Jehan'. A detailed
> explanation about the original short retort by Raju Bharatan was
> published on pages 113 to 117. This was the explanation: 'It would be
> an understatement to say that I was stumped by (Lata�s) article in
> Marathi. I immediately phoned Anna (C. Ramchandra). But he had gone to
> Africa. I got in touch with him as soon as he returned to India. I
> read out Latadidi�s charge against him (that he was stuck for the
> tune) from the original article in Marathi. He was furious. Then he
> said: �Yes, every line I have composed for Lata was done with the help
> of other composers. I understand nothing about music.� He became very
> emotional. After the anger and hurt had somewhat subsided, he added:
> �Yes, Roshan was my friend. But I composed the song in the early
> 1950s, and in those days he was deferential towards me. It is true
> that he was present, by pure coincidence, when I was composing the
> tune for the stanza, �sunaayegi ye daastaan�. In that line, I wanted
> a particular �jhatka�. Roshan thought a different type of swing to the
> notes should be employed. These differences in approach are routine
> between two creative minds. He made the suggestion in Lata�s presence.
> But my ego would not allow it. I had Lata record the �jhatka� exactly
> as I had envisaged it, ignoring Roshan�s suggestion. Do you really
> think that I might have got stuck after listening to the song?�'
>
> Not just Raju Bharatan, but a huge majority of afficionadoes do not
> think even today that C. Ramchandra would have needed help for the
> song. Annasahab had himself added: �I am not suggesting at all that I
> have never been stuck. But if C. Ramchandra faces such a hurdle, he
> himself has to find a way out of it. Similarly a Roshan has to rely on
> his wits to overcome the challenges which he faces. Lata Mangeshkar
> can help neither Roshan, nor C. Ramchandra.�
>
> C. Ramchandra�s reminiscence is particularly noteworthy. Mamasaheb
> ['Hridayanath': is addressed as �Mamasaheb� on this television show by
> Suresh Wadkar] Mangeshkar (b. 1937) was 13-14 when the song was
> composed. He tried to pass off 75 per cent of the credit to Roshan. If
> such attempts to spread misinformation are allowed to succeed,
> 'famous' names in the next generation will try to deny all the credit
> to artists whom they do not favour. And nobody will have been left to
> properly evaluate the claims. Most of the �emperors� and �empresses�
> who make it to the very top of their profession tend to write history
> to suit their own conveniences. A fiction repeated often enough by the
> famous names gradually comes to be taken for fact. It looks like the
> field of music is also not being spared such attempts. Music lovers
> have begun to suspect whether the pulpit of the hugely popular �Idea
> SaReGaMaPa� music competition on a famous TV channel is being
> willfully misused to distort history.
>
> ----------------
The main thrust of this article seems to be in support of
CR. The disbelief in the stories narrated by "Mamasaheb"
and his "Didi" is rather obvious.
By 1967, CR's career as a Music Director was practically over,
while Lata continued to dominate the singing scene, along with
Asha. CR's bitterness (as narrated by Raju Bharatan) is quite
understandable. But at that stage of his career, it would have
made little point for him to issue a formal denial of the story.
Roshan was no longer alive and could not have been confronted.
There is another fine song in "Anarkali" {Ai jaan-e-wafa aa}
which was composed by Basant Prakash. This is acknowledged by
everybody. As far as we know, neither CR nor his admirers ever
disputed this. And the musical stature of Basant Prakash is
open to question. So if CR had no compunction about BP geeting
the credit for "Ai jaan-e-wafa", why should he object to give
some credit to Roshan ? This kind of a story is a sort of
"low blow".
Afzal
Parry
Simply Marvellous. In any case CR was inspiration to many of 50s
MDs including Roshan. Its difficult to digest that Roshan could have
75% contribution to this great song, even though I am a Big fan of
Roshan.
Keep such postings flowing.
Parry
kcp
> Raju Bharatan had
> castigated the singer for trying to settle scores with C. Ramchandra
> under the garb of paying fulsome tribute to Roshan.
Nothing new for a new reporter to garner attention in the media. He
did these malicious writings quite often and ONLY because of that
became famous, or "well-known" !!.
> It’s not known whether Latadidi had responded to the article.
I am sure Anilda also did not reply ( in press ) to the idiot Raju
Bharatan, when he sowed the seed of a KK-Rafi war. It was Kishore, who
responded ( slammed RB ) via a special feature in Filmfare. Not all
are so enthusiastic.
>
> Several years passed. In 1994, Raju Bharatan, the well-known film
> journalist, wrote the book ‘Lata Mangeshkar: A Biography’ in English.
After everybody concerned passed away !! In fact it would be an
interesting study as to how many claims that RB made in his life
( similar to calling Anna, having a paan with Dada, waking up xyz at 3
am in the morning and interrogating him/her )
And today we believe the idiot called Raju Bharatan !! WOW !!