Friendly Advice to New RMIM Posters
surjit singh
If you wandered into RMIM by mistake, you are in the wrong class; this
is RMIM POSTING 101. If you are a veteran or do not plan to post, just
plan to browse no need to read further.
If you are a new RMIM Poster, let me as a veteran (since 1995) welcome
you to the wonderful world of RMIM.
As a veteran, I offer the following friendly advice.
You will either start a new thread or join one of the existing threads
(actually they are inverted trees, but no matter never mind).
New Thread: You are either telling us something or asking.
Telling: Please try to find out if we know it already or have
discussed it already by typing key phrases in a USENET search engine,
preferably google.
We have been doing it for a while. You will be surprised at what we
have been through. For example, if you just discovered that itanaa naa
mujhase is based
on some Mozart symphony, type Mozart in RMIM google and see what you
get.
If nothing turns up, please post. But beware that we have been spoiled
by the so-called self-styled gurus, who document their sources. People
will usually demand to know full details of the source of your
information.
If you express a strong opinion, be prepared to defend it.
Asking: Again, please search first. For example, if you want to know
all about nutan, just type nutan in yahoo or google. You will be
surprised to see actual very informative web sites.
Existing Thread: Same advice, but please read the existing parts
carefully to see what is being discussed and feel free to join and
have fun.
Again, welcome and enjoy!
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
yeskay
>
> Hi New RMIM Poster:
> ....
> Telling: Please try to find out if we know it already or have
> discussed it already by typing key phrases in a USENET search engine,
> preferably google.
> We have been doing it for a while. You will be surprised at what we
> have been through. For example, if you just discovered that itanaa naa
> mujhase is based
> on some Mozart symphony, type Mozart in RMIM google and see what you
> get.
> If nothing turns up, please post. But beware that we have been spoiled
> by the so-called self-styled gurus, who document their sources. People
> will usually demand to know full details of the source of your
> information.
And again, what's the loss if somebody posts something that's already
discussed before?
Ket...@att.net
The loss is that the person might never get his/her question answered if the
subject has already been discussed umpteen times before on RMIM.
It is a good idea to check archives(if they are available). However we cannot
always say when they are available or not since we are dependent on outside
forces(Google, Satish's now-dead page etc). Also for people sitting in the US
this advice is very easy to give and follow, since we do have good connections
and free local calls. As I mentioned earlier, doing this from India--even from a
cybercafe--it is extremely frustrating to do any search thru google, or any
search engine. Connections keep getting lost or cut off. The download speeds are
something that might even allow snails and turtles to dream of winning the 100
metres dash. Given all this--Surjitji's advice is good sound advice(excuse the
touch of Dubya-ness) but one should keep in mind other circumstances and
problems that others might face too. Speaking from personal experience, it is
much easier to simply post a question on RMIM and receive the answer via email,
in some cases, then to spend 1-2 hrs looking for something and screaming at
VSNL/MTNL.
Ketan
yeskay
> >> .......
> >
> >And again, what's the loss if somebody posts something that's already
> >discussed before?
>
> The loss is that the person might never get his/her question answered if the
> subject has already been discussed umpteen times before on RMIM.
>
> It is a good idea to check archives(if they are available). However we cannot
> always say when they are available or not since we are dependent on outside
> forces(Google, Satish's now-dead page etc). Also for people sitting in the US
> this advice is very easy to give and follow, since we do have good connections
> and free local calls. As I mentioned earlier, doing this from India--even from a
> cybercafe--it is extremely frustrating to do any search thru google, or any
> search engine. Connections keep getting lost or cut off. The download speeds are
> something that might even allow snails and turtles to dream of winning the 100
> metres dash. Given all this--Surjitji's advice is good sound advice(excuse the
> touch of Dubya-ness) but one should keep in mind other circumstances and
> problems that others might face too. Speaking from personal experience, it is
> much easier to simply post a question on RMIM and receive the answer via email,
> in some cases, then to spend 1-2 hrs looking for something and screaming at
> VSNL/MTNL.
>
> Ketan
He was not only taking about queries, but in general. Something like
I found some song a copy of Mozart Symphony X! What's wrong in posting
something like that again!
Surajit A. Bose
yeskay <jeevk...@my-dejaNOSPAM.com> wrote:
> He was not only taking about queries, but in general. Something like
> I found some song a copy of Mozart Symphony X! What's wrong in posting
> something like that again!
Nothing, if you don't mind looking like a fool.
If I realize that 2 + 2 = 4, then rush all breathless and excited to a
symposium of mathematicians, break into the conversation, and announce
my grand discovery, I can't blame the mathematicians for (1) laughing me
off the stage (2) berating me for wasting their time or (3) ignoring me
entirely as somebody not worth dealing with.
-s
raggy
> Hi New RMIM Poster:
>
> If you wandered into RMIM by mistake, you are in the wrong class; this
> is RMIM POSTING 101. If you are a veteran or do not plan to post, just
> plan to browse no need to read further.
>
> If you are a new RMIM Poster, let me as a veteran (since 1995) welcome
> you to the wonderful world of RMIM.
>
> As a veteran, I offer the following friendly advice.
>
only till 1995?. What is the scope of RMIM BTW? How is it that the
time spent participating in a usenet group make somebody a veteran? I
do not wish to offend, but please can you clarify, what makes a user
"a veteran" in a usenet group? Frequency of postings? Quality of
posting? Responses to postings?
> You will either start a new thread or join one of the existing threads
> (actually they are inverted trees, but no matter never mind).
>
> New Thread: You are either telling us something or asking.
>
> Telling: Please try to find out if we know it already or have
> discussed it already by typing key phrases in a USENET search engine,
> preferably google.
> We have been doing it for a while. You will be surprised at what we
> have been through. For example, if you just discovered that itanaa naa
> mujhase is based
> on some Mozart symphony, type Mozart in RMIM google and see what you
> get.
> If nothing turns up, please post. But beware that we have been spoiled
> by the so-called self-styled gurus, who document their sources. People
> will usually demand to know full details of the source of your
> information.
>
> If you express a strong opinion, be prepared to defend it.
>
> Asking: Again, please search first. For example, if you want to know
> all about nutan, just type nutan in yahoo or google. You will be
> surprised to see actual very informative web sites.
>
> Existing Thread: Same advice, but please read the existing parts
> carefully to see what is being discussed and feel free to join and
> have fun.
>
> Again, welcome and enjoy!
>
> Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
Again I do not wish to sound harsh, but are you "the moderator" of
RMIM?
Abhay Phadnis
news:sbose-A611CE....@news.fu-berlin.de...
> >
> > He was not only taking about queries, but in general. Something like
> > I found some song a copy of Mozart Symphony X! What's wrong in posting
> > something like that again!
>
> Nothing, if you don't mind looking like a fool.
>
> If I realize that 2 + 2 = 4, then rush all breathless and excited to a
> symposium of mathematicians, break into the conversation, and announce
> my grand discovery, I can't blame the mathematicians for (1) laughing me
> off the stage (2) berating me for wasting their time or (3) ignoring me
> entirely as somebody not worth dealing with.
"RMIM : music" as "a symposium of mathematicians : mathematics"?! What have
you been smoking, Surajit?
Warm regards,
Abhay
yeskay
Dr. Bose,
I don't think even you believe what you are saying. These two are not
one and the same. Practically, nobody cares whether you discovered some
song or something special about a song, first, unless people start
taking pride in such accomplishments. If you laugh at people for
coming up with some info of a song which is a known fact, it is your
drawback and you have some attitude problems. It doesn't reflect
anything on the person who posted that info. Also, this is no stage to
prove one's greatness, we are just discussing things about indian music
to spend some time off work.
If you read a post that's already discussed, don't read it any further.
There will always be new people on the ng who are willing to discuss it
further. BTW, I have been (reading mostly) in RMIM since 1993.
naniwadekar
yeskay <jeevk...@my-dejaNOSPAM.com> wrote -
>
> I don't think even you believe what you are saying. These two are not
> one and the same. Practically, nobody cares whether you discovered some
> song or something special about a song, first, unless people start
> taking pride in such accomplishments. If you laugh at people for
> coming up with some info of a song which is a known fact, it is your
> drawback and you have some attitude problems. It doesn't reflect
> anything on the person who posted that info.
>
things like Mozart-Salil connection, do so to impress
upon others how insightful they are. Old timers do it in
appropriate context. All it should take for a newcomer
is to play himself in gingerly until he knows how the wicket
is going to perform. Else, you better be a Tendulkar. Or
Maninder Singh, whose batting is a joke for everybody,
including himself.
> Also, this is no stage to prove one's greatness ...
>
But this *is* a stage (like every other) to hide one's
stupidity, to the extent one can.
> we are just discussing things about indian music
> to spend some time off work.
>
we as in (singular) you?
To Abhay Phadnis - rmim comprises of all kinds
of posters. But would you deny there are many
who are really very knowledgeable and that every
poster should fashion his posts accordingly? I mean
an rmic post asking for aaroh-avaroh of Bhoop
is one thing, an rmic post proudly announcing what
it is is another thing, and a post by RP telling us A-A
of bhoop is yet another thing. Nothing wrong with
the first and last cases. It is the in-between Trishanku
stuff that is best avoided.
- dn
yeskay
> Old timers do it in
> appropriate context. All it should take for a newcomer
> is to play himself in gingerly until he knows how the wicket
> is going to perform. Else, you better be a Tendulkar. Or
> Maninder Singh, whose batting is a joke for everybody,
> including himself.
The next thing we should do is when somebody new posts, we will ask him
to "e-strip" and and make him type a Kumar Sanu song, just to welcome
him into this fraternity.
> > we are just discussing things about indian music
> > to spend some time off work.
> we as in (singular) you?
If you think RMIM is one such stage to prove you are a veteran/master
and you are having immense knowledge in HFM, you gotta get a life.
Going out and taking a stroll in the wilderness for a start will also
help.
naniwadekar
yeskay <jeevk...@my-dejaNOSPAM.com> wrote -
>
> newcomers/oldtimers? What are you, in a Hostel of a college in India?
>
Nothing stops anybody from being persistently
muddle-headed. A long association with rmim
is no guarantee for having a good grasp of
logic. After all, you have been reading rmim since
1993. It hasn't helped you write logically.
OTOH, I have seen quite a few people join
rmim without making the mistakes commonly
associated with 'new-comers'.
Re. your original point - nothing wrong in
discussing a thing again. I am in partial agreement
with you on that point. But the context in which those
issues are raised is important. If you get the context
right, nobody complains. Your other inputs to
this thread amount to noise and more noise.
- dn
yeskay
The 'you' was in general and not directed at you in particular. I should
instead use 'one' when I speak in general. Then I would sound like
Robin Williams.
Surajit A. Bose
"Abhay Phadnis" <apha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "RMIM : music" as "a symposium of mathematicians : mathematics"?! What have
> you been smoking, Surajit?
Wouldn't you like to know?
-s
SKalra902
Why is it that people cannot take positive suggestions in the spirit they are
given - take them in a postiive and constructive way. Instead, are any views
opposite to one's own to be taken in a hostile manner?
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
vsr...@mailandnews.com
>
> yeskay <jeevk...@my-dejaNOSPAM.com> wrote -
> >
> > I don't think even you believe what you are saying. These two are not
> > one and the same. Practically, nobody cares whether you discovered some
> > song or something special about a song, first, unless people start
> > taking pride in such accomplishments. If you laugh at people for
> > coming up with some info of a song which is a known fact, it is your
> > drawback and you have some attitude problems. It doesn't reflect
> > anything on the person who posted that info.
> >
> More often than not, newcomers, who post well-known
> things like Mozart-Salil connection, do so to impress
> upon others how insightful they are.
A newcomer who identifies Mozart-Salil relation for the first time has
every reason to post it on every ng and mailing list, as a child
speaking da da ma ma for the first time has every right to shout only
these words for one month day in and day out. You yourself keep on
encouraging him to repeat the same. He indeed had impressed you, and so
you let him think, so that he grows.
Oldtimers were lucky that internet was not there when you had identified
such copies/ inspirations/ connections. There would have been many like
you who identified it then, before you.
When internet came, old timers spammed mailboxes declaring their "finds"
of mozart-salil, and now they want to deny this right to other newbies.
I am not taking a bow to it.
Such discussions are as much necessary in the development of a persons
as for every new singer or instrument player to start with good old sa
re ga ma, even if his generations of forefathers had been singing or
playing a thousand raga.
> Old timers do it in
> appropriate context.
Hell they do.
1. Most of the oldtimers take pleasure in cursing 70+ music and deify
the most stupid songs of 1950.
2. Most of the oldtimers keep on fighting and name calling (among
themselves).
3. Most of the oldtimers like to elongate the thread to no ends even
after it has outlived its utility.
MIND YOU, I WROTE "MOST", not "ALL.
Also, this old-timer is not linked to physical age of the person, it is
more about some "inner circle" of RMIM who own RMIM, or so they think.
> All it should take for a newcomer
> is to play himself in gingerly until he knows how the wicket
> is going to perform.
like saying that a one year old kid should start speaking only when all
elder persons are silent for at least 24 hours.
There are so many arbitrary threads keep on going. Today I downloaded
ng, and last two days total mails are 100, my highest ever in single
download.
With all these traffic, we may definitely absorb one mail of a newbie
declaring his first find.
Old timers need not answer, if they don't want to. Some other newbie, or
me, might feel like answering just to pat a kid for taking his first
stroll. It feels nice.
> Else, you better be a Tendulkar. Or
> Maninder Singh, whose batting is a joke for everybody,
> including himself.
>
> > Also, this is no stage to prove one's greatness ...
> >
> But this *is* a stage (like every other) to hide one's
> stupidity, to the extent one can.
>
> > we are just discussing things about indian music
> > to spend some time off work.
> >
> we as in (singular) you?
>
> To Abhay Phadnis - rmim comprises of all kinds
> of posters. But would you deny there are many
> who are really very knowledgeable and that every
> poster should fashion his posts accordingly? I mean
> an rmic post asking for aaroh-avaroh of Bhoop
> is one thing, an rmic post proudly announcing what
> it is is another thing, and a post by RP telling us A-A
> of bhoop is yet another thing. Nothing wrong with
> the first and last cases. It is the in-between Trishanku
> stuff that is best avoided.
>
> - dn
-Rawat
naniwadekar
<vsr...@MailAndNews.com> wrote -
>
> 1. Most of the oldtimers take pleasure in cursing 70+ music and deify
> the most stupid songs of 1950.
>
overpraised, irrespective of its time-stamp. And do
give a list of deified but stupid 1950s songs.
>
> A newcomer who identifies Mozart-Salil relation for the first time has
> every reason to post it on every ng and mailing list, as a child
> speaking da da ma ma for the first time has every right to shout only
> these words for one month day in and day out. You yourself keep on
> encouraging him to repeat the same. He indeed had impressed you, and so
> you let him think, so that he grows.
>
But we don't sandwitch a 'da da ma ma' speech
by a one-year-old between speeches of Leader
of Opposition and Prime Minister during an imp
discussion in Lok Sabha. We even restrict LS
membership to people over 25 (33% of them women;
but not 33% children. Not yet, at least.) The correct
analogy would be of a ten-year old who has put
together 2 lines which do rhyme; but thinks he is
about to outdo Kabir. In such cases, parents caution
him. Others laugh at his foolishness. If parents tout
him as next Kabir, they are also laughed at. The one
year-old 'da da ma ma' brigade has one more excuse.
They are still being breast-fed. Whereas
no one wants RMIM to be a grim place, (and it is
far from being grim,) some caution is due. If you
dazzle your college-friends by throwing names like
Sajjad and Roshan, you shouldn't rush home and
announce to RMIM that two MDs by those names
exist. We know that. And it is easy to guess that
RMIMers must be knowing it. Rawat, is all
sense of proportion lost on you? (I have framed
KK's advice about intense flame-spewing near
my computer, and will try to follow it as
suggested by you now on.) Have you failed to
notice that new-comers *are* made to feel welcome
on rmim? Read carefully the last two sentences of
Surjit-ji's first post in this thread. The most intense flames
are mostly exchanged between 'old-timers'. If you want to
keep pretending otherwise, go ahead.
>
> With all these traffic, we may definitely absorb one mail of a newbie
> declaring his first find.
>
> Old timers need not answer, if they don't want to. Some other newbie,
> or > me, might feel like answering just to pat a kid for taking his first
> stroll. It feels nice.
>
You are welcome to breast-feed newcomers if you have
an unlimited supply of the milk of human kindness. But
should your nipples go sore (or sour) in the process, don't
expect others to take turns in quenching the thirst for attention
or hunger for earning pats on the part of kids.
- dn
Ashok
>
>There are so many arbitrary threads keep on going. Today I downloaded
>ng, and last two days total mails are 100, my highest ever in single
>download.
>-Rawat
About half of those are your own articles. Given
the rate at which you upload, it's a divergent
series!
Ashok
surjit singh
Hi Kids:
Wow, I am finally a guru! I am as excited as a newbie!
I have posted 180 messages and my name appears in 748 posts.
That gives me roughly 3 responses per post on the average.
I have discovered the secret!
The "Friendly advice ec." post, 25 responses and growing!
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
PS: Who is Bruce Willis?
>
>
> Ashok
Balaji Murthy
>
>> appropriate context.
>
>Hell they do.
>
>1. Most of the oldtimers take pleasure in cursing 70+ music and deify
>the most stupid songs of 1950.
Hi Rawat,
Can you please list the stupid songs of 1950 which were deified?
Do you also have such lists for the rest of the 50s?
Thanks,
- Balaji
Ket...@att.net
>
>In article <3B7EA40B...@MailAndNews.com>, vsr...@MailAndNews.com says...
>>
>>> Old timers do it in
>>> appropriate context.
>>
>>Hell they do.
>>
>>1. Most of the oldtimers take pleasure in cursing 70+ music and deify
>>the most stupid songs of 1950.
>
>Hi Rawat,
>
>Can you please list the stupid songs of 1950 which were deified?
Read the ATMJH series, Latanjali, Missing Element and various other series from
the archives. Read the posts of people who praise everything that came out of
the baton of Naushad, SJ, CR, AB, Roshan, SDB, Salil, OPN, MM, Sajjad etc.
Ketan
Radhika and Ramesh Hariharan
>
> If I realize that 2 + 2 = 4, then rush all breathless and excited to a
> symposium of mathematicians, break into the conversation, and announce
> my grand discovery, I can't blame the mathematicians for (1) laughing me
> off the stage (2) berating me for wasting their time or (3) ignoring me
> entirely as somebody not worth dealing with.
>
> -s
Symposium of mathematicians ? lol ! Yes .. there may be people for
whom this forum is serious stuff like mathematics, but for a majority
out there this is only an entertainment forum (do you see "rec" on
newsgroup name?). After all the discssion in the film music group
(rmim) is rarely very deep, and a signficant fraction of the
discussions are focused on jingoism (granted .. I am very guilty of
participating in these) or some abstruse facts about music
personalities which don't have much to do with music itself. The key
question is: Why does RMIM have to be such an elitist forum ? I
seriously enjoy music of very different types, but do horribly in most
of the quizzes because I don't keep track of all the trivia (I recall
a quiz recently where I got 5 answers right *after* seeing the
answers). So does it mean "gareeb aadmi" like me don't belong .. come
on guys .. at this rate the average age of the RMIM'ers will keep
going up (an observation we shared at the last get together at
Satish's place), and we will not successfully loop in the next
generation of graduate students and get them all excited about old
hindi music.
I fully commend the spirit of Surajit's post, but caution us taking it
too far. We could become a closed newsgroup and that's not healthy.
Best,
Ramesh
naniwadekar
> >Can you please list the stupid songs of 1950 which were deified?
>
> Read the ATMJH series, Latanjali, Missing Element and various other series
from
> the archives. Read the posts of people who praise everything that came out
of
> the baton of Naushad, SJ, CR, AB, Roshan, SDB, Salil, OPN, MM, Sajjad etc.
>
> Ketan
>
I don't wish to defend people who praise every song
by an artiste. But people who run these series have
one thing in common - good taste. Occasionally,
everybody is prone to get over-enthusiastic and
make tall claims. But such behaviour is infrequent.
RMIMers also make sure that overpraise does not
go unchallenged. It is strange that you don't remember
all the vigorous debates about merit or its lack, so
far as threads about old songs are concerned.
As for for post 1970s scene, we have only got
you and RDB, Rawat and ARR, and the jewel in the
RMIM crown - Nazir Patel + Lata combo.
- dn
Ket...@att.net
>
>>
>> >Can you please list the stupid songs of 1950 which were deified?
>>
>> Read the ATMJH series, Latanjali, Missing Element and various other series
>from
>> the archives. Read the posts of people who praise everything that came out
>of
>> the baton of Naushad, SJ, CR, AB, Roshan, SDB, Salil, OPN, MM, Sajjad etc.
>>
>> Ketan
>>
>
>I don't wish to defend people who praise every song
>by an artiste. But people who run these series have
>one thing in common - good taste. Occasionally,
If you insist. Was your arm twisted into saying that?
>everybody is prone to get over-enthusiastic and
>make tall claims. But such behaviour is infrequent.
>RMIMers also make sure that overpraise does not
>go unchallenged. It is strange that you don't remember
>all the vigorous debates about merit or its lack, so
>far as threads about old songs are concerned.
I do. However Balaji seemed to have forgotten. Which is why I pointed out the
various series to him to refresh his memory. The point being that what is a gem
to one person can be stupid to someone else whatever be the era.
>As for for post 1970s scene, we have only got
>you and RDB, Rawat and ARR, and the jewel in the
>RMIM crown - Nazir Patel + Lata combo.
RDB is not a post 70s composer. He started in 1962 and his most succesful phase
was in the early 70s. Now I see why RMIMers have a problem with anything that
falls outside a year beginning with 195x.
Ketan
Shyamal Pain
<Ket...@att.net> wrote in message news:9lrf...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <9lrama$alc6i$1...@ID-75735.news.dfncis.de>, "naniwadekar" says...
> >
> >>
> >> >Can you please list the stupid songs of 1950 which were deified?
> >>
> >> Read the ATMJH series, Latanjali, Missing Element and various other
series
> >from
> >> the archives. Read the posts of people who praise everything that came
out
> >of
> >> the baton of Naushad, SJ, CR, AB, Roshan, SDB, Salil, OPN, MM, Sajjad
etc.
> >>
> >> Ketan
> >>
> >
> >I don't wish to defend people who praise every song
> >by an artiste. But people who run these series have
> >one thing in common - good taste. Occasionally,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >you and RDB, Rawat and ARR, and the jewel in the
> >RMIM crown - Nazir Patel + Lata combo.
>
> RDB is not a post 70s composer. He started in 1962 and his most succesful
phase
> was in the early 70s. Now I see why RMIMers have a problem with anything
that
> falls outside a year beginning with 195x.
IMHO , RDB should be included in all-time-great composers.
naniwadekar
>
> I fully commend the spirit of Surajit's post, but caution us taking it
> too far. We could become a closed newsgroup and that's not healthy.
>
>
This is a reply to comments by a couple of posters (Ketan
Dholakia, Shyamal Pain, and Ramesh Hariharan).
> The point being that what is a gem
> to one person can be stupid to someone else whatever be the era.
>
No. The point is that people may rank Madhubala, Meena
Kumari, Nutan, Vaijayantimala and Vaheeda Rehman in diff
order in a beauty contest. Some may even disagree about
whether (say) Madhubala has good looks. But there are
no disagreements about Madhuri Dixit, Karishma Kapoor
and Sonali Bendre. They are all plain ugly.
It is also curious that this same Ketan never entertains
the possibility that what is a boring Lata song for him
can be a gem to Nazir Patel, and always flames him. If
NP likes a Lata song, it is a case of sycophancy. The
'to each his own' principle no longer applies.
Seriously, you can agree broadly that a peacock strutting
his stuff is great to look at, can't you? Same with Taj
Mahal. But if someone argued that he enjoys looking endlessly
at Pakistani Parliament, that moving monument to democracy,
more than Taj Mahal or that he enjoys eating tooth-paste
more than ice-cream, I won't extend to him the charity of
'to each his own' argument.
Modern music is stupid, period. The tragedy is that people
actually argue on its behalf. If you believe Madhav Gudi
is better than Bhimsen or Usha M better than Lata, you are
arguing for the sake of arguing. Remember : people used to
argue, in great numbers, as recently as 100 years ago, that
it was best that India was ruled by the British. That some
people believe in such ideas does not give the ideas
any legitimacy.
> > As for post 1970s scene ...
> >
> RDB is not a post 70s composer.
>
That was a typo. I meant post-1970.
> IMHO , RDB should be included in all-time-great composers.
>
I don't wish to deny RDB's genius. He does not need any
certificate from me. He has excellent songs to his credit.
All the more reason to feel sorry for his decision to
monkey around.
> I fully commend the spirit of Surajit's post, but caution us taking it
> too far. We could become a closed newsgroup and that's not healthy.
>
I agree with the spirit of Ramesh's post. But I caution
against being too flexible. Good music has dried up, and
that may mean that good discussions will eventually dry
up, too, on rmim. Every forum needs new blood to survive.
On the other hand, it is better not to have newcomers
who discuss nothing but RDB, Laxmi-Pyare and other 'new'
(I mean post-1970) MDs and their rotten music. If RMIM
does get infested with such newbies, there is nothing
anyone can do. Thankfully, rmim has evolved to be a
sanctuary from silly music-related articles to be found
in film magazines.
I would rather not listen to any music if good music
is not to be found. Many MDs also refused to compromise
when the wave of noise hit Hindi films. I admire that
spirit. RMIM may mostly comprise of a minority who
stick to 'out-dated' music. Yet it is not an elitist
forum in spirit.
Some forms of music cry out for cultivated taste. But
Hindi film music is (or was) able to entertain all
types of people 40-50 years ago. Today, under the excuse
of reaching out to the masses, it has become sickening.
We cannot argue against its success. Let that be.
It is good that RMIM has come to represent 'a minority'.
Luckily, the majority is too busy enjoying the noise and
has no time to flood rmim with posts. Far from RMIM being
a minority-forum because it is elitist, it is so (viz - a
minority) because majority of people are plain stupid and
find good music and its discussion boring. It is pandering
to lowest common denominator that is unhealthy.
- dn
Ket...@att.net
says...
As usual, there are many things wrong with your post. Starting with :
>This is a reply to comments by a couple of posters (Ketan
>Dholakia, Shyamal Pain, and Ramesh Hariharan).
That's 3 of us. Three cannot be "a couple".
>> The point being that what is a gem
>> to one person can be stupid to someone else whatever be the era.
>It is also curious that this same Ketan never entertains
>the possibility that what is a boring Lata song for him
>can be a gem to Nazir Patel, and always flames him. If
>NP likes a Lata song, it is a case of sycophancy. The
>'to each his own' principle no longer applies.
Correction. I don't flame NP for liking a Lata song. If he has bad taste and
prefers Lata's vocal assaults, he is entitled to it. I flame him for having
double standards. This is the same idiot who went around screaming on how Dev
Anand should retire since he was past his prime, but vociferously defended
Lata's right to continue attacking our ears. Even I agree with him that Dev
Anand should retire, however I leave the final choice to him and Lata. Will we
ever see people like NP saying that? And I have in the past praised Lata's
singing in public concerts too, if you would read RMIM carefully. Most notably
her rendition of "Kali kali raat re dil" in the Sony concert. I did not think
she could pull it off. She impressively did pull it off. So NP has a right to
his views, just as I have a right to criticize him for his views.
>Modern music is stupid, period. The tragedy is that people
Sez who? Is this from your "thought process"? Please note the quotes.
>actually argue on its behalf. If you believe Madhav Gudi
The tragedy is that people like you, prefer to sit in a time warp.
>it was best that India was ruled by the British. That some
>people believe in such ideas does not give the ideas
>any legitimacy.
I agree. The same goes with your ideas on modern music.
>I agree with the spirit of Ramesh's post. But I caution
>against being too flexible. Good music has dried up, and
>that may mean that good discussions will eventually dry
>up, too, on rmim. Every forum needs new blood to survive.
Sorry. Good music has not dried up. What has dried up is the ability of RMIMers
to allow people in to discuss, who might consider "other music" as good.
Examples : comments like the ones you make below.
>On the other hand, it is better not to have newcomers
>who discuss nothing but RDB, Laxmi-Pyare and other 'new'
>(I mean post-1970) MDs and their rotten music. If RMIM
>does get infested with such newbies, there is nothing
>anyone can do. Thankfully, rmim has evolved to be a
>sanctuary from silly music-related articles to be found
>in film magazines.
Oh great! So your idea of improving RMIM, is to deny bandwith and space to
legitimate L-P, Annu, RDB, Bhappi fans right? So how exactly is that promoting
"to each his own"? Actually what RMIM needs is a balance between people talking
just about CR-Lata, Naushad-Rafi, SDB-KK, OPN-Asha etc and other music.
>is not to be found. Many MDs also refused to compromise
>when the wave of noise hit Hindi films. I admire that
Correction! Many MDs simply found they COULD NOT compromise. Thus they were
wiped out. Those who could, went on to earn many laurels. If you want to listen
to a genius who did compromise, listen to Madan Mohan's orchestration for "Tum
jo mil gaye ho". What an awesome score matched with some awesome singing. Notice
the subtle use of drums. If this is a ghazal(and can someone please confirm for
me if it is one or not), I can't think of any other ghazal that uses drums as
the percussion of choice.
>spirit. RMIM may mostly comprise of a minority who
>stick to 'out-dated' music. Yet it is not an elitist
>forum in spirit.
Right! "We are not elitist, however could all you RDB, L-P fans please stay
out".
< Rest of nonsense clipped >.
Ketan
naniwadekar
<Ket...@att.net> wrote -
>
> As usual, there are many things wrong with your post. Starting with :
>
> >This is a reply to comments by a couple of posters (Ketan
> >Dholakia, Shyamal Pain, and Ramesh Hariharan).
>
> That's 3 of us. Three cannot be "a couple".
>
"The couple (Amitabh, Rekha and Jaya B) has regaled us
in SILSILA" would be wrong usage.
But check for the meaning of 'couple' on www.m-w.com ;
I am quoting here, meaning # 4.
4 : an indefinite small number : FEW <a couple of days ago>
- dn
Arun Sampath
"naniwadekar" <nan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> No. The point is that people may rank Madhubala, Meena
> Kumari, Nutan, Vaijayantimala and Vaheeda Rehman in diff
> order in a beauty contest. Some may even disagree about
> whether (say) Madhubala has good looks. But there are
> no disagreements about Madhuri Dixit, Karishma Kapoor
> and Sonali Bendre. They are all plain ugly.
You say it and so it's gospel? I don't find Meena Kumari beautiful but I
find Madhuri and Sonali beautiful. Where exactly do you draw the line on any
of these issues and who does that?
<rest of highly opinionated stuff deleted>
A
Ket...@att.net
A brief digression :
According to you :
>"The couple (Amitabh, Rekha and Jaya B) has regaled us
>in SILSILA" would be wrong usage.
is wrong usage.
But, a couple of posters(Ketan, Shyamal, Ramesh) is correct usage.
How? Why? Methinks, by your own example, the "Silsila" rule would apply, and not
the www.m-w.com rule. Hence "a couple of posters" is incorrect. However, you
might still be right. So--Help! Anyone! Surajit? Put your degree to good use.
>But check for the meaning of 'couple' on www.m-w.com ;
>I am quoting here, meaning # 4.
>
>4 : an indefinite small number : FEW <a couple of days ago>
Ketan
Sambit Basu
[...]
> But there are
> no disagreements about Madhuri Dixit, Karishma Kapoor
> and Sonali Bendre. They are all plain ugly.
[...]
> or that he enjoys eating tooth-paste
> more than ice-cream, I won't extend to him the charity of
> 'to each his own' argument.
> Modern music is stupid, period.
This article by naniwadekar is really invaluable. It showcases
all the prime aspects of cultural chauvinism.
In all ages there are people who think "old is gold" and anything
new is "stupid". One may have a bias, but labelling anything which
is not in the domain of one's liking is annoying at best. To quote
GBS, "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior
to all other countries because you were born in it." Similarly,
cultural chauvinism is one's conviction that things you like are
the best because you happen to be fond of those.
- Sambit
[...]
> Good music has dried up, and
> that may mean that good discussions will eventually dry
> up, too, on rmim. Every forum needs new blood to survive.
> On the other hand, it is better not to have newcomers
> who discuss nothing but RDB, Laxmi-Pyare and other 'new'
> (I mean post-1970) MDs and their rotten music.
[...]
Shyamal Pain
> > Good music has dried up, and
> > that may mean that good discussions will eventually dry
> > up, too, on rmim. Every forum needs new blood to survive.
> > On the other hand, it is better not to have newcomers
> > who discuss nothing but RDB, Laxmi-Pyare and other 'new'
The following films scored by RDB alone can get him a place with
other great composers :
Aandhi, Kudrat, Mehbooba, Kinara, Parichay, Khooshboo, Amar
Prem, Kati Patang.
Most of these were post-70s and none rotten.
vsr...@mailandnews.com
>
> No. The point is that people may rank Madhubala, Meena
> Kumari, Nutan, Vaijayantimala and Vaheeda Rehman in diff
> order in a beauty contest. Some may even disagree about
> whether (say) Madhubala has good looks. But there are
> no disagreements about Madhuri Dixit, Karishma Kapoor
> and Sonali Bendre. They are all plain ugly.
Was your wife around while you were typing this.
> Seriously, you can agree broadly that a peacock strutting
> his stuff is great to look at, can't you? Same with Taj
> Mahal. But if someone argued that he enjoys looking endlessly
> at Pakistani Parliament, that moving monument to democracy,
> more than Taj Mahal or that he enjoys eating tooth-paste
> more than ice-cream, I won't extend to him the charity of
> 'to each his own' argument.
Examples are good, but the other extreme is asserting that the sound of
a 195x md/ singer coughing, burping, gargling, sneezing, passing
air,.... is better music than a genuine song of 70+ md, singer.
> Modern music is stupid, period. The tragedy is that people
> actually argue on its behalf. If you believe Madhav Gudi
Madhav Who?
> is better than Bhimsen or Usha M better than Lata, you are
> arguing for the sake of arguing. Remember : people used to
> argue, in great numbers, as recently as 100 years ago, that
> it was best that India was ruled by the British.
> > IMHO , RDB should be included in all-time-great composers.
> >
> I don't wish to deny RDB's genius.
Why does it seem that your heart is bleeding while conceding this.
> He does not need any
> certificate from me.
hmmm! Maybe you would acquire some status by agreeing to give a
certificate to them.
> If RMIM
> does get infested with such newbies,
That only shows the dirty state of mind of the writer that he chooses
such terms.
The natural reaction can be: "do you suggest that we let RMIM remain
infested with old-timers?".
> there is nothing
> anyone can do. Thankfully, rmim has evolved to be a
> sanctuary from silly music-related articles to be found
> in film magazines.
that and also the sanctuary for original posts of old-timers deifying
the every 70- song.
> I would rather not listen to any music if good music
> is not to be found.
unwritten comment: "And without hearing that music, I will condemn that,
write bad things about that, and flame people who write about that."
What a manifesto.
> Many MDs also refused to compromise
> when the wave of noise hit Hindi films.
To mention one, C Ramchandra's music itself was termed a wave of noise
in that era. But once people listened to that and got addicted, they
praised it like never before.
> I admire that
> spirit. RMIM may mostly comprise of a minority who
> stick to 'out-dated' music.
You are mixing antonyms.
The people who stick to out-dated music are a fading minority in the
world, but they manage to retain their MAJORITY on RMIM by flaming,
cursing, scaring away newbies.
> Yet it is not an elitist
> forum in spirit.
Only if old-timers can understand that.
>
> Some forms of music cry out for cultivated taste. But
> Hindi film music is (or was) able to entertain all
> types of people 40-50 years ago. Today, under the excuse
> of reaching out to the masses, it has become sickening.
> We cannot argue against its success. Let that be.
>
> It is good that RMIM has come to represent 'a minority'.
> Luckily, the majority is too busy enjoying the noise and
> has no time to flood rmim with posts. Far from RMIM being
> a minority-forum because it is elitist, it is so (viz - a
> minority) because majority of people are plain stupid and
> find good music and its discussion boring. It is pandering
> to lowest common denominator that is unhealthy.
>
> - dn
May the old-timers fade more quickly, O Lord!
-Rawat
naniwadekar
<vsr...@MailAndNews.com> wrote -
>
>
> that and also the sanctuary for original posts of old-timers deifying
> the every 70- song.
>
Not every pre-1970 song is deified on rmim.
Instead of giving examples of poor 1950s songs
which have been unjustifiably praised on rmim in
your opinion, as requested by myself and Balaji,
why do you keep repeating the same charge
again and again?
If you supplied your list, maybe your post will
result in some good discussions. If you can't
back up your claim by supplying a list, let us at
least hear why it is that you cannot supply
the list as requested.
- dn