So Ilayaraja composed Neele Neele ambar
AK
In article a...@drn.zippo.com, Ravi Krishna () writes:
<long article about neele neele ambar's tamil version snipped>>
>
>-- RaviK.
i should say that having heard both versions, the tamil version is superior to the Hindi one. Now before chaps (being chaps) start flaming me for being a typical
madrasi tyeps.. etc etctetc.. I would like to mention that although i am a tamilian, I grew up in the north, know more hindi than tamil and that i love KK, RDB and gang as much as I love SPB and Raja. Seeing it objectively, teh guitar pieces in the tamil song were superb and so were the antaras. The hindi song was rather tame in comparison.
As an aside, I always felt that for tamil songs
Rafi:kishore::Yesudas:SPB. however, i noticed that although SPB didn't have any significant training in classical music, he HAS sung a number of classical numbers. (Shankarabharanam is a great example for this. I think he got the National award for this movie). kishore has not really sung any pure, classical numbers. Now this might be the fault of the music directors who refrained from giving KK any classical songs.
Ilayaraja utilised SPB's versatility to the fullest possible extent, something which the bombay music directors didn't do with KK. i am sure KK with his genius could have sung classical numbers, but aah well.. you get my point.:-)
AK
---
************************************************************************************
Arun Krishnan
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of South CArolina
ph #: 803-777-6750
Home: 1035, Comanchee Trail
App # B-1,
West Columbia,
SC-29169.
Hmmm... I have nothing profound to add here like so many of my comrades seem to have.:-)
************************************************************************************
ravi_krishna
In article <62li5k$6...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, kris...@drk.controls says...
>I would like to mention that although i am a tamilian, I grew up in the north,
>>know more hindi than tamil
Same here.
> and that i love KK, RDB and gang as much as I love SPB and Raja. Seeing it
Here I disagree. I like Raja/SPB much more than RDB/KK for the simple reason
that they gave superior music. However my favorite is old hindi film music
of 50s and 60s. Nothing to match it.
> objectively, teh guitar pieces in the tamil song were superb and so were the
> antaras. The hindi song was rather tame in comparison.
^^^^
Rather pathetic in comparison.
>As an aside, I always felt that for tamil songs Rafi:kishore::Yesudas:SPB.
You are grossly mistaken. SPB was Rafi+Kishore for south films. Yesudas was
never that prolific to be compared with Rafi and neither he had that variety.
Yesudas was firmly entrenched in only classical based songs.
>however, i noticed that although SPB didn't have any significant training in
>>classical music, he HAS sung a number of classical numbers. (Shankarabharanam
> is a great example for this. I think he got the National award for thismovie).
Add Unnale Mudium Thambi also. SPB sang classical based songs very well. Raja
got a national award for the telegu version of this film (Rudraveena), but
the telegu songs were different from tamil.
> kishore has not really sung any pure, classical numbers.
> Now this might be the fault of the music directors who refrained from giving
> KK any classical songs.
Oh really , pray tell me why RDB never utilised the services of KK for all his
classical based songs. Why he switched over to Bhupinder / Manna Dey when he
found that the complexity of the song is beyond the ...err.. reach of KK.
>Ilayaraja utilised SPB's versatility to the fullest possible extent, something
>which the bombay music directors didn't do with KK. i am sure KK with his
>genius could have sung classical numbers, but aah well.. you get my point.:-)
Just when I thought you came up with a good reply , you have spoiled it with
your last line. I repeat KK was too limited a singer to sing any other type
of songs except halke-pulke-light songs , and he no doubt did a great job in
that , even if it means taking 18 retakes. :-)
-- RaviK
Vandana Vidwans
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
> You are grossly mistaken. SPB was Rafi+Kishore for south films. Yesudas was
> never that prolific to be compared with Rafi and neither he had that variety.
> Yesudas was firmly entrenched in only classical based songs.
>
> >however, i noticed that although SPB didn't have any significant training in
> >>classical music, he HAS sung a number of classical numbers. (
>
he clearly said he has not taken any classical training.
I do agree that he is too good in Shankarbharanam.
Vandana
Venugopal V. Iyer
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
>
> You are grossly mistaken. SPB was Rafi+Kishore for south films. Yesudas was
> never that prolific to be compared with Rafi and neither he had that variety.
> Yesudas was firmly entrenched in only classical based songs.
>
if you mean technical competence (SPB) = tc ( Rafi + kk), i do not agree. I rank
Yesudas onlynext to rafi followed by MannaDey, SPB and others, in fact Yesudas had
the same problems as
Manna Dey, both were offered only select songs by MD and never experimented. The
reason rafi
excelled was that he was able to render a classical/semi-classical composition with
the same ease
as he could render shammi songs. In fact the problem with Manna Dey and Yesudas is
that they
are over qualified for the job, as was the case with sanjay manjerakar, who was the
most technically
sound batsman. but out of the team more often than in.
Venu
( a rafian)
P.S : Yesudas was too good in Sindu(??) Bhairavi.
>
--
zindagii to bevafaa hai ek din Thukaraaegii
maut mahabuubaa hai apane saath lekar jaaegii
mar ke jiine kii adaa jo duniyaa ko sikhalaaegaa
vo muqaddar kaa sikandar jaaneman kahalaaegaa
AKn
In article 8373...@ececs.uc.edu, "Venugopal V. Iyer" <vi...@ececs.uc.edu> () writes:
>Ravi, Krishna wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> You are grossly mistaken. SPB was Rafi+Kishore for south films. Yesudas was
>> never that prolific to be compared with Rafi and neither he had that variety.
>> Yesudas was firmly entrenched in only classical based songs.
>>
>
> if you mean technical competence (SPB) = tc ( Rafi + kk), i do not agree. I rank
>Yesudas onlynext to rafi followed by MannaDey, SPB and others, in fact Yesudas had
>the same problems as
>Manna Dey, both were offered only select songs by MD and never experimented. The
>reason rafi
>excelled was that he was able to render a classical/semi-classical composition with
>the same ease
>as he could render shammi songs. In fact the problem with Manna Dey and Yesudas is
>that they
>are over qualified for the job, as was the case with sanjay manjerakar, who was the
>most technically
>sound batsman. but out of the team more often than in.
>
>Venu
>( a rafian)
>
>P.S : Yesudas was too good in Sindu(??) Bhairavi.
>
>>
Agree with you there. he was awesome in it.
Btw, i don't understand why none of the other music directors (Apart from Salil Chaudhary) gave him much of a chance in hindi films despite his superb performances in Chit Chor as well as some rather nifty numbers like "maana ho Tum" etc etc.
AK
Sanjeev Kumar
AKn wrote:
>
>
> Agree with you there. he was awesome in it.
> Btw, i don't understand why none of the other music directors (Apart from Salil Chaudhary) gave him much of a chance in hindi films despite his superb performances in Chit Chor as well as some rather nifty numbers like "maana ho Tum" etc etc.
>
> AK
The only problem I guess (anybody's guess this) is his Hindi accent.
The MDs might have had problems in getting him to sing the right words.
Not the tune, but the pronounciation. I don't see any reason for him to
sing Hindi songs. He is pretty good in singing songs that suit his
capabilities and he is perfect at that. I feel he shouldn't try
something which he knows he is not going to be accepted. If we don't
care about the accent, he has the perfect ability to sing any kind of
song, as someone said he is truly overqualified for movie singing.
Also, I don't want to compare hime to SPB 'cause SPB is a commercial
singer like KK. And KJY is a purist and nobody dare say anything
bad about his sur gyan (A perfectionist, I should say in this!).
Hear his "Kaali ghodi" song in "Chasmebaddor". Nowhere does he err.
And that ever-soothing voice, Man, he is a treat to even a musically
illiterate ears like mine.
Though, I say he sounds misfit in the song, "Neele amber ke tale" or
rather the song is a misfit for KJY's capabilities. He's Rafi'sque
in "Ai mere udaas man". He appears prudish in "Ni sa ga ma pa ni".
His lone song in Dau.d is the only song I came close to liking and
is he still good!
Sanjeev
AK
In article b...@drn.zippo.com, Ravi Krishna () writes:
>In article <62li5k$6...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, kris...@drk.controls says...
>
>>I would like to mention that although i am a tamilian, I grew up in the north,
>>>know more hindi than tamil
>
>Same here.
>
>> and that i love KK, RDB and gang as much as I love SPB and Raja. Seeing it
>
>Here I disagree. I like Raja/SPB much more than RDB/KK for the simple reason
>that they gave superior music. However my favorite is old hindi film music
>of 50s and 60s. Nothing to match it.
Noting to agree or disagree here. I was stating my likes.:) and you stated yours. fair enough.
>
>> objectively, teh guitar pieces in the tamil song were superb and so were the
>> antaras. The hindi song was rather tame in comparison.
> ^^^^
>Rather pathetic in comparison.
>
Agree here. Pathetic would be a better word.
>>As an aside, I always felt that for tamil songs Rafi:kishore::Yesudas:SPB.
>
>You are grossly mistaken. SPB was Rafi+Kishore for south films. Yesudas was
>never that prolific to be compared with Rafi and neither he had that variety.
>Yesudas was firmly entrenched in only classical based songs.
>
not really. Yesudas in his earlier days used to sing a number of non classical songs. "sendaazham poovil" , songs from "adisaya ragam" etc. I am sure more knowledgeable people on the net could tell you more about them. However, I always felt that Yesudas made a # of the halke-pulke geet as you call them.
>>however, i noticed that although SPB didn't have any significant training in
>>>classical music, he HAS sung a number of classical numbers. (Shankarabharanam
>> is a great example for this. I think he got the National award for thismovie).
>
>Add Unnale Mudium Thambi also. SPB sang classical based songs very well. Raja
>got a national award for the telegu version of this film (Rudraveena), but
>the telegu songs were different from tamil.
I think we can also add songs from "Duet" for which A.R. Rehman for a change scored some decent music.
>
>> kishore has not really sung any pure, classical numbers.
>> Now this might be the fault of the music directors who refrained from giving
>> KK any classical songs.
>
>Oh really , pray tell me why RDB never utilised the services of KK for all his
>classical based songs. Why he switched over to Bhupinder / Manna Dey when he
>found that the complexity of the song is beyond the ...err.. reach of KK.
>
Like I said, maybe RDB felt that it was better to give those songs to people who already had classical training and did not take a chance on KK as Raja did for Shankarabharanam with SPB. (was it Ilayaraja for shankarabharanam or K.V Mahadevan?)
>>Ilayaraja utilised SPB's versatility to the fullest possible extent, something
>>which the bombay music directors didn't do with KK. i am sure KK with his
>>genius could have sung classical numbers, but aah well.. you get my point.:-)
>
>Just when I thought you came up with a good reply , you have spoiled it with
>your last line. I repeat KK was too limited a singer to sing any other type
>of songs except halke-pulke-light songs , and he no doubt did a great job in
>that , even if it means taking 18 retakes. :-)
>
Well, one can't really say that unless one had heard KK sing a pure classical number and made a # of it. i do however agree taht SPB has sung a wider variety of songs than KK.
>-- RaviK
ravi_krishna
In article <62nhec$9...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, kris...@drk.controls says...
>Well, one can't really say that unless one had heard KK sing a pure classical
>number and made a # of it.
Very creative excuse.
>i do however agree taht SPB has sung a wider variety of songs than KK.
and has sung much better too.
-- RaviK.
ravi_krishna
In article <344F9B...@arbornet.org>, Sanjeev says...
>KS became popular for the same reasons, not for his talent, but more
>due to timing.
The same can be said about KK too, that is, his popularity was more due to
timing than talent. KK has been singing since early 50's , and till 1970 he
was no way near Rafi in popularity. Rafi dominated the industry. Not only
that some of the leading MD's of industry very prejudiced against KK and were
known to pass some uncharitable remarks about KK in public.
With the advent of Rajesh Khanna/Amitabh , the public identified KK with the
new actors and thus he gained popularity. Also MDs changed in HFI. New
generation of MDs took over from stalwarts and they had better tuning with KK.
Contrary to the popular opinion that Rafi never recovered after his early 70s
debacle , Rafi was slowly gaining popularity by late 70s. The year 1980 saw
more hits of Rafi than KK , in the annual Binaca Geet Mala hit chart, thus
proving that Rafi was back in business. Alas he passed away that year.
-- RaviK.
Venugopal V. Iyer
Ravi, Krishna wrote:
> >"Venugopal says...
>
> > if you mean technical competence (SPB) = tc ( Rafi + kk), i do not agree.
>
> I meant both popularity and tc.
> Like you I am also a Rafian , but over a period of time after listening to
> thousands of songs of Rafi and SPB , I am prepared to concede that SPB = Rafi
> or perhaps even better.
>
Well this is not true, I guess the comparision betn these two extremely
talented singers cannot be based on the songs they have rendered. For e.g.
the quality of Hindi songs plunged to depths
starting from mid-70s. But, tamil MD's have always maintaind some level of
standard despite
churning out crap (the proportion to good songs to bad songs in SI films >>
than that of Hindi
songs) . You certainly cannot compare any of SPB's songs in Hindi to that of
rafi's, since
most of the SPB songs in Hindi are mediocre (compared to his songs in
tamil+other SI lang.).
I can concede to the fact that proportionally SPB popularity in SI >= that
of (rafi + kk), but that
does not say much for talent, similarly rajni cannot be said to be a better
actor than amitabh.
The main points for my contention that rafi was the best playback singer are
as follows:
1. He could adapt to any type of songs, actors, situations. Rafi singing for
raj kumar, raj kapoor, rajesh K,
amitabh bachchan or shatru DID NOT sound absurd (may be odd). At least
for hindi songs SPB could not
have done this. KK sounded real bad for Rajendra kumar and Dilip kumar.
2. He was the ONLY male playback singer who tried to match his singing
capabilities to suit the actor
on screen. This evident from all the johnny walker songs, dilip kumar
songs, dharm songs...... I am yet
to come across any other singer who tried this. KK, manna dey, mukesh
etc. used to sing to their best ability
without trying to relate to the actor on whom the songs was picturized.
e.g. tum bin by KK and janak janak payal by
manna dey (my apologies if i got the wrong song here, i assume on
screen this is sung by a drunk raj kumar!!!).
3. Only he could have staged a comeback in the late 70s, with actors like
rajesh k (although fading fast) amitabh etc
and MD's like RDB, LP, KA, BL whose first pref. was KK . I cannot
imagine a Sargam without rafi (esp the song
kahan tera insaaf hai).
4. His voice quality remained the same throughout, though his style changed
(e.g. chand mera dil, kahin ek masoom
nazuk si ladki etc had his trademark softness).Imagine a person in his
50s singing Parda hai parda (ordinary song,
but effort reqd was too much)
5. Till he died there was chance for no other singer, except KK (in the
70s), not even SPB, but after his death even
KK, with his popularity, could not control the deluge of new singers on
the scene .
6.RDB gave most of his songs to KK, but for some songs he HAD to summon
rafi (e.g. maine poocha chand se, hum
kissi se kam nahin, kya hua tera ..), such was the impact he had.
7. Rafi was the only singer who could come out with an hit even if the
music and lyrics are average (e.g. all shammi
songs). In fact lyrics+music of most of kk songs are far better than
that of rafi.
the list could go on.
According to me Yesudas, Manna dey, SPB, KK, Mukesh are/were great singers,
but when it comes to the 'greatest'
singer, there is only rafi.
Venu
( a rafian)
P.S: Till mid 80s, I was an ardent KK fan, but then when I listened to rafi's
songs, from 50s-80s, I was amazed, and
turned into a rafian ever after.
> SPB has shown remarkable variety in singing any type of songs and being a
> perfectionist he has done an excellent job in all.
>
> -- RaviK.
>
> PS: KK is not even worth comparing with SPB , for he is SO FAR behind in
> ability.
Chetan Vinchhi
Sanjeev Kumar wrote:
>
> I would consider it sacrilege to weigh KJY and KS in the same balance.
So be it.
> If we are talking only about acceptance, it would be a factor of
> various issues. Timing for instance, when KJY was tried, KK was the
> most "popular" (repeat popular) singer in Hindi movies. So, naturally
> MDs didn't sing light tunes with KJY as KK was there for such
> songs. Rafi was being sidelined for unknown reasons and there was
> nobody in the scene apart from KK. I am talking baout early 70s.
Once again, "tathaastu". You can name your own rules and claim to
win the game. Better still, you can define yourself to be right so
it will automatically make everyone else wrong. You have some fancy
theory about why KJY was not accepted. Every new singer has always
faced difficulty. But quite often, real talent shines through in
the end. Why is it so hard to accept that KJY was perhaps cut out
for things different (better, if you wish) from Hindi filmi music?
> KS became popular for the same reasons, not for his talent, but more
> due to timing.
This is not the issue we are interested in. So let's cast it aside
for a moment.
> And moreover you can't generalize by saying he was
> not emoting appropriately in most of his songs.
What I was saying was more like - I can't think of a single song
of his where he has emoted effectively. With the possible execption
of the Sadma lori, all his songs have the same monotonous voice
quality. Flat. Emotionless. Obviously, you disagree with me.
> Soft romantic solo? I see romantism/passion in most of his songs.
Ah, then there is a real real problem with this singer. Not every
song is meant to be a romantic or passionate one. Obviously, if a
singer makes his frivolous, sad, mischievous, devotional and angry
songs romantic, the emotions department is seriously understaffed.
> He sounds highly happy ans cheerful in "aaj se pehele".
This song from Chit Chor is his least-liked song, I bet. It is
a completely flat song with a miserable attempt on the part of
Ravindra Jain to infuse some cheerfulness by using whistling.
> As most of his songs were classical
> based, there wasn't any need to shown emotions.
Perhaps you need to ask the question - why are most of his
songs classical based?
C
anand_tiwari
In article <632n77$n...@drn.zippo.com>, Shashank says...
>
>In article , Ravi says...
>>
>>In article <344FE5E9...@ececs.uc.edu>, "Venugopal says...
>>
>>>Well this is not true, I guess the comparision betn these two extremely
>>>talented singers cannot be based on the songs they have rendered. For e
>>switch over to Rafi as I heard his old songs. Later when I started listening
>>to SPB's tamil songs, my admiration for Rafi also started going down. Same with
>>RDB to Ilayaraja change.
>
>
>I have no knowledge of south indian songs but my experience is a little
>similar. I loved Mukesh and Hemant and Kishor very early but when came to
>appreciate the music more fell in love with Rafi's voice of the old songs.. As
>for voices, one of the earliest time that SPB was heard in Hindi was in some
>song where he sings with a child who say "Daddy" and he replies " Oh Raju !!"
That song is from "Ek hi Bhool" starring Jeetendra and Rekha.
regards
Anand (a Kishore Kumar fan, forever)
Sanjeev Kumar
Chetan Vinchhi wrote:
> Once again, "tathaastu". You can name your own rules and claim to
> win the game. Better still, you can define yourself to be right so
> it will automatically make everyone else wrong. You have some fancy
> theory about why KJY was not accepted. Every new singer has always
> faced difficulty. But quite often, real talent shines through in
> the end. Why is it so hard to accept that KJY was perhaps cut out
> for things different (better, if you wish) from Hindi filmi music?
We are not in a debating contest where we twist each other's words and
claim we won the debate. Yes, I do have some "fancy" theories about
why KJY was not accepted in Hindi movies. But, all I have been saying
is that he was not meant to sing in Hindi movies (accent for me,
"emotion"al reasons for you.). What is hard to accept is that he was
not a good singer for reasons that are baseless.
> What I was saying was more like - I can't think of a single song
> of his where he has emoted effectively. With the possible execption
> of the Sadma lori, all his songs have the same monotonous voice
> quality. Flat. Emotionless. Obviously, you disagree with me.
You sure have some tall claims here. And I think this factor (feeling
emotions in one's voice) depends on each listener and the time he
listens to the song. Obviously, I don't make sense! So let it be.
"Tathaasthu" to you too.
>
> > Soft romantic solo? I see romantism/passion in most of his songs.
>
> Ah, then there is a real real problem with this singer. Not every
> song is meant to be a romantic or passionate one. Obviously, if a
> singer makes his frivolous, sad, mischievous, devotional and angry
> songs romantic, the emotions department is seriously understaffed.
>
I was saying it in a much more broader perspective. What I meant by
passion is about being passionate. One can be passionate about love,
hate, sorrow, or rather any kind of emotion. I never meant to be taken
literally.
> > He sounds highly happy ans cheerful in "aaj se pehele".
>
> This song from Chit Chor is his least-liked song, I bet. It is
> a completely flat song with a miserable attempt on the part of
> Ravindra Jain to infuse some cheerfulness by using whistling.
>
Least-Liked? Were you part of a team which conducted an opinion poll on
this lone song and interviewed some geeks and came to this conclusion.
You might even quote some bozo (Raju something) in some book/article
making this statement. Anyway, this is just your bet and I'll bet you'll
lose if you do bet!
> Perhaps you need to ask the question - why are most of his
> songs classical based?
'cause I know he was the BEST at it! And he should've stayed with it.
SK
prof...@gmail.com
> In article a...@drn.zippo.com, Ravi Krishna () writes:
> <long article about neele neele ambar's tamil version snipped>>
> >
> >-- RaviK.
>
> i should say that having heard both versions, the tamil version is superior to the Hindi one. Now before chaps (being chaps) start flaming me for being a typical
> As an aside, I always felt that for tamil songs
>
>
>
>
> ---
> ************************************************************************************
> Arun Krishnan
> Department of Chemical Engineering
> University of South CArolina
> ph #: 803-777-6750
>
> Home: 1035, Comanchee Trail
> App # B-1,
> West Columbia,
> SC-29169.
>
> Hmmm... I have nothing profound to add here like so many of my comrades seem to have.:-)
kishore has sung classicl nos like mere naina sawan bhado excellently and payalwali dekh na under chitragupta .
manna dey excells all kishore spb rafi yesudas in classical nos.
the zest in voice of kishore the khnak , the liveliness is missing in spb .
kishore outperformed parween sultana without using apllapi s
************************************************************************************