Songs and Raags
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
The number of 'raags' is very large. Could then one link every song to
some 'raag' or the other?
Regards
Sukesh
Afzal A. Khan
Funny that you should ask this.
First, I know next to nothing about "shaastriya sangeet".
I would refer you to two songs from recent films, though I
doubt whether you have heard them, since neither the music
nor the films pertain to your taste.
The first film is "Jaane Tu..Ya jaane Na", where its fast -
paced disco song is all the rage in India and, possibly,
abroad too. The song is : "Pappu can't dance.......".
Please listen carefully to the orchestral interludes.
Forget the actual sung portion and concentrate only on
these orchestral interludes. They do remind me of "some"
raag. I am not naming that raag, for I could be wrong.
The second film is "Tashan". It seems the film was not very
successful. But one of its songs became popular, maybe for
all the wrong reasons : "White white face dekhe.....". Here,
too, the basic structure of the tune reminds me of the "same"
raag. And this is not a quiz !
I am sure experts in ICM will clarify the matter and reply to
your query too.
Afzal
Archisman Mozumder
Dear Afzal-saab,
Let me take this opportunity to laud you for your remarkable open-
mindedness in listening to songs of all varieties.
I have heard the song from Tashan but not 'Pappu can't Dance' (the FM
channels in Johannesburg have not yet started playing this track :)).
The song 'white white face dekhe' seems to be based on bhairavi.
Regards.
Afzal A. Khan
My dear Archisman,
Here is a link to the other song : "Pappu can't...".
http://dishant.com/album/Jaane-Tu-Ya-Jaane-Na.html
I hope the link works.
I am sure you must have noticed the two words used by me
above : "some" and "same". Perhaps your verdict about the
other song may turn out to be the "same".
Would you mind if I were to ask you some questions about
Bengali music which I love so much but don't know much about
it, (through personal e-mail) ?
Afzal
vijay...@my-deja.com
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Aah, Jo'burg. Brings to mind a popular song that
played on the Desi channel back when...
pahanii vo laal-piilii ghaagharaa cholii
ghuu.NghaT kholii, phir vo bolii
<<something>> dikhaa, phir laao Dolii
sung to the tune of "it was an itsy-bitsy
teeny-weeny yellow polka dot bikini that
she wore for the first time today"
Vijay
UVR
I am not an expert in shastriya sangeet, but I do know that the number
of raags being large has nothing to do with whether or not every song
can be "linked" to some raaga or another.
Beyond this, one would need to know how you define the word "link" in
order to accurately answer your question. I know that there are a
large number of songs that can be 'linked' to exactly one shastriya
raaga. There may also be a large number of songs that can be 'linked'
to more than one raaga, or those that can't be 'linked' to any
particular raaga. It all depends on what 'link' means.
So ... what does 'link' mean?
-UVR.
Chetan Vinchhi
What is "large"? There are probably a few hundred raags in Hindustani
music and most of them are rare or esoteric. And most of them tread on
the ground of some other raagas. As a result, no one artist usually
performs more than a few tens of raagas with equal authority.
> Could then one link every song to
> some 'raag' or the other?
There is a difficult question lurking behind this seemingly simple
query! Let me break this down a bit. Let us say that when you say
"song", you have a single melody line in mind (UVR has also hinted at
the need for such a simplification by alluding to multiple raagas
mapped to a song).
So the question boils down to - can a string of notes be mapped to a
raag? There are two aspects of this modified query. Can a string of
notes be a legitimate melodic gesture in some raag? Can the string of
notes evoke that raag effectively?
The first question is easy, you can probably take most simple melody
lines in some raaga or mishra raaga with minor embellishments or
modifications. The second is not so easy. Unless the melody comprises
of a characteristic phrases of the raaga *and* uses a right set of
emphases and alankaars, it cannot evoke the raaga.
HTH
C
Akkordeon
You are right. The music pieces seem to be loosely based on the raag
Jaunpuri.
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
What I mean is that a song could be based on some raag.
Regards
Sukesh
UVR
I'm sorry -- this is not sufficiently 'definition'-like. One needs to
state what it means to say "a song is based on raaga X". People use
this phrase to imply different things, I think. For example, there
are those who mean "if the song satisfies all the requirements laid
out in shaastriya sangeet for a tune (e.g., bandish) in raaga X, then
the song is based on raaga X." Others might say "if some note
patterns utilized in the song can be identified as [loosely?]
belonging to the total set of musical phrases possible in raaga X,
that's enough." Yet others may have other interpretations.
A person is much more than the sum of his bones, flesh and blood,
right? Somewhat in the same manner, a raaga is much more than the a
set of notes/swaras/frequencies.
See Chetan's response too.
All said and done, I s'pose it would be possible to come up with a
definition of 'based on' by which one could assert that "every song is
'based on' a[t least one] raaga." If that's the answer you were
looking for, you have it.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
With due respect, I feel Shri Sukesh was not expecting that his
simple query would get entwined in so many complexities as
regards definition etc.
One shouldn't really regard the query as a mathematical proposition
which admits of only one correct answer. And even if it is so
regarded, one can say either "Yes" or "No", depending on what the
RESPONDER feels.
Even though I know next to nothing about classical music, if I were
to answer Shri Sukesh's question, in a mathematical sense, my reply
would simply be "No". Quite a few songs are so absurd that it
would be a sacrilege to link them to any raag.
My mind goes back to a thread about "plagiarism" some two years
back when the following views were ascribed to MD Naashaad. In
fact, the name quoted in the earlier part of the thread was that of
Naushad, but it was soon corrected. Here is the quote :
"With only seven main notes, six ragas, thirty six raginis and
seventy two sub-raginis, every "new" musical composition is
bound to sound familiar in places."
The number of raags may be large, but still it is a reasonably
finite number. In some cases, one can observe a certain over -
lapping of some notes in more than one raag. RMIMers may remem-
ber a "celebrated" thread about "Jog Kauns" and "Chandrakauns"
etc. some years back.
Another point : In most songs of the earlier era, there used to
be a definite tune-pattern which one could also call a "note -
pattern". It was a sort of defining device to pinpoint the song.
The antras could be a little different, but the "basic structure"
of the song's tune was quite identifiable. And many of these
songs could definitely be "linked" to some raag. PahaaRi, Bhairavi
and Yaman may be deemed to be the most favoured in this respect.
If one were to do a Google search, one would find numerous links
relating to "Raag-based Songs". Of course, there could be some
differences of opinion as to which raag can be linked to any parti-
cular song. I gave the example of a "Tashan" song, which Archisman
felt was based on Bhairavi. The other song ("Pappu can't dance..."
was identified by another RMIMer as based on Jaunpuri. Maybe some-
one else may feel that it too is based on Bhairavi. So there can
be healthy differences.
In conclusion, it may not be possible to link EVERY song to some
raag, particularly if we are considering songs of recent vintage.
But many of the songs of the earlier era CAN be "linked" to some
raag.
I hope Shri Sukesh would find this conclusion satisfactory.
Afzal
Archisman Mozumder
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Dear Afzal-saab,
Thanks for the link. Will listen to it over the weekend.
I'll be glad to receive questions from you on bengali music on
arch...@yahoo.co.in or arch...@gmail.com. I'll try my best to
respond to the best of my abilitiy. I must add that RMIM has at least
3 members who have a wonderful knowledge on bengali music:
Jyotiprakash Guha, Prithwiraj Dasgupta & Sambit Basu.
Regards,
Archisman.
Archisman Mozumder
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Dear Vijay-ji,
Yes, the 'desi' channel is Durban-based & is called 'Lotus'.
Regards.
Archisman Mozumder
Thanks to Chetan & UV Ravindra for the nice responses. I concur a lot
with both their views.
In our classical music, Bhairavi & Pilu have 'mishra' variants that
offer scope for a lot of innovation. Hence, finding traces of bhairavi
& pilu in a multitude of hindi songs is not unusual. Raju Bharatan
found bhairavi in Mozart's 40th Symphony as well. Tchaikovsky's famous
piece from Swan Lake has the typical bhairavi aroha phrase of
'SrgmP' (all flat/komal notes).
However, there are a great many raags, in which, the
'pakad' (charecteristic phrase), and the style/nature of rendition,
determine whether a song is based on that particular raag or not.
'sa re ke saare' from Parichay & 'aap jaisa koi mere zindagi mein
aaye' from Qurbani can never be based on Bilawal & Malkauns
respecticely, despite commonality of notes.
It is a pity that Mr Rajan Parrikar does not participate in RMIM these
days. His views on this topic would have been interesting to read.
Regards-Archisman.
pra124
Sukesh,
According to Pt Bhatkhande’s book, there are 10 basic ragas, 35
popular ragas (so in all 45 popular ragas) and 135 lesser known ragas.
I have found a few more over and above this list. The total number of
ragas will be nearing 200. A pretty finite number.
Archisman has rightly pointed out that commonality of notes between a
song and a raga does not mean that the song is based on that raga. As
we know, SJ were fond of raga Bhairavi. They composed many many songs
on notes of Bhairavi. But that does not mean that each of those songs
was based on Bhairavi.
There is another problem. Many ragas follow the same notes and yet
they r different e.g., MaaRoya, Sohini and Puriya follow the same
notes; yet they r different ragas due to their different ‘chalan’ and
‘pakaR’. Similarly, ToRi and Multani follow the same notes and yet
they r different ragas.
From your query I understand that u r really interested in linking
songs to ragas. OK. Here is the raga-wise list that u wanted. In this
context, I should mention that I am not an expert in Indian classical
music. I know just tidbits of ICM. So if u find any mistake,plz let me
know.
BHAIRAVI:
Bajuband khulu khulu jaye (Thumri of Ostad Bade Golam Ali Khan)
Mat ja, mat ja, yogi (Jogan ,1950)
Babul mora naihar chhutahi jaye (Street singer, 1938)
Madhukara shyam hamare chor (Bhakta Surdaas, 1942)
Hato, kaheko jhuti banaao batiyan (Manzil, 1960)
Naache man mora magan (Meri surat teri aankhen, 1962)
Lagaa chunari mein daag (Dil hi to hai, 1963)
Phool gendwa na maro (Dooj ka chand, 1964)
SHIVARANJANI
Dil ke jarokhe mein tujhko bithakar (Brahmachaari, 1968)
Jane kahan gaye o din (Mera naam Joker, 1970)
Mere naina saaon bhadon (Mehbooba, 1976)
KHAMBAJ
Tere mere Milan ki yeh raina (Abhimaan, 1973)
Kaun gali gayo shyam (Thumri)
AAHIR BHAIRAV
Poochhona kaise hame rain beetayi (Meri surat teri aankhen, 1962)
Albela sajaniyan (Ham dil de chuke sanam,1999)
HAMBIR
Madhuban mein radhika nache re (Kohinoor, 1960)
KALINGRA
Kya karun sajani, aaye na balam (Thumri, BGAK)
SOHINI
Prem ki maare kaataar (Thumri, BGAK)
MALKAUNS
Man taRapata hari darshan ko aaj (Baiju Bawra, 1952)
MAARU BEHAAG
Tum to pyar ho (Sehra, 1963)
DARBAARI KANARA
Dil jalta hai to jalne do (Paheli Nazar, 1945)
O duniya ke rakhawale (Baiju Bawra, 1952)
Jhanak jhanak tori baaje payeliya (Mere Huzoor, 1968)
JAYJAYANTI
Man mohan baRi jhute (Seema, 1955)
YAMAN
Chandan sa badan (Saraswati chandra, 1968)
Tumhare mehfil mein aa gayi hai (Umrao Jaan, 2006)
BHAIRAV
Mohe bhool gaye sanwariya (Baiju Bawra, 1952)
BAGESHREE
Jaag dard-e-ishq jaag (Anarkali, 1953)
JAUNPURI
Dil chheR koi aisa nagma (Inspector, 1956)
So happy listening filmsongs based on ICM.
Cheers
Paddy.
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
Thank youall for your views, comments and other info.
Regards
Sukesh