Evaluating Rafi's Contribution
Mokammel Karim
playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
his contribution.
surjit singh
He was one of the top 4 playback singers of the Golden era. He was of
gentle nature. Although he is not at the top of my list of male
singers, I like him.
I do not like what he did in the issue of royalty. Certain MDs (I
think Naushad and OPN) were paid 5% royalty by HMV on each record
sold. Lata wanted that half of that (2.5%) should be given to singers
and, since he was the top male singer, she approached him for support.
He declined to participate. I strongly think that that was a mistake.
He should have sided with Lata.
If he had agreed, one of the consequences would have benn that we
would have heard many more male and female voices, because Lata and
Rafi would have become even more expensive.
In any case, as we were discussing at the recent meet, an unintended
consequence of Lata-Rafi spat was that we got to hear so many Rafi-
Suman and Rafi-nonLata duets, which may not have been possible
otherwise.
Pavan Jha
One of the most important Chapter in History of Hindi Film Music. A
Brilliant example of what Light Indian Music is all about... A Voice
that the common man (majority) found nearest to his own (and could
sing/imitate his songs easily)... A range that could suit form Mehmood
to Dilip Kumar and from Kishore Kumar to Amitabh Bachchan.. A man
whose presence did a lot to add respect to industry of cut throat
competition..
In short, Rafi is one of the most significant aspects of Hindi Film
Music...
Afzal A. Khan
> On Sep 22, 1:39 am, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
>> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
>> his contribution.
>
> He was one of the top 4 playback singers of the Golden era. He was of
> gentle nature. Although he is not at the top of my list of male
> singers, I like him.
I am sure people would be curious to know who actually IS at
top of your list of male singers. If it is indeed Kishore
Kumar, KKlaners would certainly be most happy. But I rather
suspect that it is KLS.
>
> I do not like what he did in the issue of royalty. Certain MDs (I
> think Naushad and OPN) were paid 5% royalty by HMV on each record
> sold. Lata wanted that half of that (2.5%) should be given to singers
> and, since he was the top male singer, she approached him for support.
> He declined to participate. I strongly think that that was a mistake.
> He should have sided with Lata.
I am curious to know as to what finally happened. When Lata,
and others who were with her, began to receive royalty, did
the other singers (who did not side with her, like Rafi) also
start receiving royalty ? I never got to read about this
aspect of the royalty furore.
>
> If he had agreed, one of the consequences would have benn that we
> would have heard many more male and female voices, because Lata and
> Rafi would have become even more expensive.
Please see my question above. If the royalty became payable
to all singers, it would not have mattered as to who got to
sing a(n eventual) popular song.
Afzal
UVR
> surjit singh wrote:
> > On Sep 22, 1:39 am, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> >> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> >> his contribution.
>
> > He was one of the top 4 playback singers of the Golden era. He was of
> > gentle nature. Although he is not at the top of my list of male
> > singers, I like him.
>
> I am sure people would be curious to know who actually IS at
> top of your list of male singers. If it is indeed Kishore
> Kumar, KKlaners would certainly be most happy. But I rather
> suspect that it is KLS.
>
It's no secret. It *is* KLS. Dr. Singh has said so many a time on
RMIM.
-UVR.
Naseer
him. Why was he so unique? It was his versitlity. He could sing all
kinds of songs: soft, loud, fast, slow, happy, sad. He could sing
normal filmii songs, giits, Ghazals, na'ts, bhajans, qavvaaaliis, semi-
classical songs...you name it, he could do it.
Most important in all this was his lovely sweet voice. I found his
pronunciation of the words crisp and clear; as if every word has been
carefully scupltured He had a voice, which one could imagine a "hero"
singing. Whatever other people might think, and I do respect other
people's views, the likes of Saigal, Mukesh, Talat Mahmood had voices
for one era, for one mood. It's like having a car which only has first
and second gear. No third for accellerating , nor a fourth or fifth.
Well, the rest of the male singers I have mentioned were that car! As
for Kishore Kumar, I feel he was a much better actor than he was a
singer.
To top it all, he was a very decent human being.
Naseer
Mokammel Karim
> On Sep 22, 1:39 am, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> > playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> > his contribution.
>
> He was one of the top 4 playback singers of the Golden era. He was of
> gentle nature. Although he is not at the top of my list of male
> singers, I like him.
We would like to know who are those 4 (in order of preference).
> I do not like what he did in the issue of royalty. Certain MDs (I
> think Naushad and OPN) were paid 5% royalty by HMV on each record
> sold. Lata wanted that half of that (2.5%) should be given to singers
> and, since he was the top male singer, she approached him for support.
> He declined to participate. I strongly think that that was a mistake.
> He should have sided with Lata.
I do think that rafi's position was wrong. May be he was influenced by
some MDs or may be he did not believe that a singer should get royalty
for a song. As many stories go, he was not a worldly man --- sometimes
refused to take money if he liked the composition too much; used to
sing for free in the 1st film of any new composer; though he used to
have a rate, often deviated from that. I don't know for sure, but if
lata was asking 50% from the MD's share she was wrong too. she should
have asked for royalty from HMV's share. For a song, definitely the MD
is more responsible. However, the 'royalty issue' is not directly
related to rafi's contribution to hindi film music (may be it had some
indirect impacts).
> If he had agreed, one of the consequences would have benn that we
> would have heard many more male and female voices, because Lata and
> Rafi would have become even more expensive.
If lata asked for royalty for only those 2 singers, that might have
happened. but if it was for all singers, that won't happen and if she
indeed considered only herself and rafi - again thats not an
appreciable effort.
> In any case, as we were discussing at the recent meet, an unintended
> consequence of Lata-Rafi spat was that we got to hear so many Rafi-
> Suman and Rafi-nonLata duets, which may not have been possible
> otherwise.
We did not hear too many rafi-nonLata duets in 1960s. Does it mean
that rafi was more indispensable in the 60s? Actually I do believe
that if the 1950s belong to lata, 1960s belong to rafi.
Afzal A. Khan
> AS for Kishore Kumar, I feel he was a much better actor than he was a
> singer.
>
> To top it all, he was a very decent human being.
>
> Naseer
Is the last sentence meant for Kishore Kumar ?
Afzal
Jay
Mr Karim:
Good question you have put up..
The answer to your question ,without any prejudice; and confining to
your question...can ONLY BE VALUED from those who have heard every
'playback singer' prior to Md.Rafi in depth...repeat in depth. Post
1960 can safely be ignored, whoever it may be...since the term -
quantity - is too cheap a word for any genre contribution of QUALITY,
taking into account 'changes in musical trends'.. This is absolutely
IMPERATIVE for every contemporary playback singer(male).
Keeping the above paragaraph in mind, let Profjee now comment...forget
about the royalty-part and stick only to the genre of playback and
contribution to cine music.
As for me, I will give my opinion last...i think I am quite fair
enough !!
Jay
23/9
Mokammel Karim
Mr. Jay,
You said it right - let's stick to 'rafi's contribution to the genre
of playback singing / cine music'. However, if we don't consider post
1960 period, analysis of rafi's contribution would be incomplete -
since we will lose more than half of rafi's career. I think it should
be kept open, let rmim members individually decide how they would
approach/evaluate.
Aditya
Based on Lata's version of the story (told in an interview to Amin
Sayani), she was already getting royalty. And this fight was to get
royalty for all singers. And it was to be from HMV's share. She
mentions in the interview that all artistes had agreed to stop
recording for HMV (she cited the example of Prem Patra which was not
on HMV), but certain MDs had gone ahead and recorded for HMV. It was
then that she along with other like Talat Mahmood and Mubarak Begum
had gone to meet Rafi.....Of course, this is her version recaled after
40 years of the incident. Can't say how much of this is accurate.
Aditya
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
What u say is OK, dear. But in the analytical sense of genre, Rafi
does excel , but the stuff meted out is mediocre as compared to his
predecessors, qualitywise. This is precisely the point of contention -
believe it or not ! Post 1960 genre,Rafi does excel..no doubt about
that..but the stuff..mediocre...lacking in melodic values. The same
with Lata too, her voice as compared to that in the early 50s to 56 or
so,began to deteriorate gradually with the lack of improvisational
skills from the reigning MDs of post-60. For example,take Naushad;
what stuff has he meted out as compared to the Naushad of Mother India
or Sohni Mahiwal...and compare Mere Mehboob...all bakwas. Only the
younger generation may huff-n-puff at my posts...they will not
understand...never. Because they have never heard the REAL Md.Rafi or
Lata and their tenors.
So, the bottom line then:
The younger generation's opinions, even though they may be diehard
fans is , in one word: NO VALUE.!!
People like me, or others well versed with Rafi's tenor and capable of
contradicting my statements with justification, are only to be
reckoned with. All others: Also Ran !
I am always available for any sort of debate.
Jay
23/9
surjit singh
> > On Sep 22, 1:39 am, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> >> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> >> his contribution.
>
> > He was one of the top 4 playback singers of the Golden era. He was of
> > gentle nature. Although he is not at the top of my list of male
> > singers, I like him.
>
> I am sure people would be curious to know who actually IS at
> top of your list of male singers. If it is indeed Kishore
> Kumar, KKlaners would certainly be most happy. But I rather
> suspect that it is KLS.
>
As UVR mentioned, Saigal.
>
>
> > I do not like what he did in the issue of royalty. Certain MDs (I
> > think Naushad and OPN) were paid 5% royalty by HMV on each record
> > sold. Lata wanted that half of that (2.5%) should be given to singers
> > and, since he was the top male singer, she approached him for support.
> > He declined to participate. I strongly think that that was a mistake.
> > He should have sided with Lata.
>
> I am curious to know as to what finally happened. When Lata,
> and others who were with her, began to receive royalty, did
> the other singers (who did not side with her, like Rafi) also
> start receiving royalty ? I never got to read about this
> aspect of the royalty furore.
>
I believe Lata was trying to involve all singers, but when Rafi
refused, she gave up. She was adamant on getting it herself and she
did get. On this point, she walked out on Raj Kapoor.
surjit singh
> On Sep 22, 3:19 pm, surjit singh <surjitsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 22, 1:39 am, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> > > playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> > > his contribution.
>
> > He was one of the top 4 playback singers of the Golden era. He was of
> > gentle nature. Although he is not at the top of my list of male
> > singers, I like him.
>
> We would like to know who are those 4 (in order of preference).
>
In my reckoning the decades from the 30s to now go as Titanium,
Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze etc. In the Golden Era (50s), they are
generally listed as Lata, Rafi, Asha and Mukesh. Of course, in the
Bronze era Kishor replaces Rafi and Rafi replaces Mukesh.
Deepak
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jay,
You are entitled to decide what you like. Other RMIMers, for whom you
seem to have endless scorn, do have talent. What you think of other
people's talent is not germane to the question here. Mr. Karim does
seem to want other RMIMers opinion.
Peace...
Deepak
Sukesh
Jay
Get off your high horse. Experts do not go around broadcasting 'I-am-
an-expert' and '1-am-wise'. Even if you are one, your opinion is just
your opinion. Moreover, you are not the sole repository of wisdom. You
have the right to free to express your views, but have no right
running down other people's views, likes and dislikes.
Regards
Sukesh
Sukesh
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
If thats the case as you categorically state, when are your EARS going
to open to REALITY..which also accrues on healthy debates.
Unfortunately, none is interested...since Rafi ,the phenomenlogical
self ; is endeared in their respective hearts. Fine , perfectly OK - I
do not dispute that at all.
But, our subject of contention: contribution to the genre of Indian
cine music - is not addressed at all. Why? why?
There are countless fans of Rafi all over the world. I AM TOO ONE OF
THEM..mind well !
The Rmimers fail to address the point of contention , despite the
resources available to them. Simply accusing me by your senseless
remarks is meaningless. Come out in the open with your study of
Md.Rafi's real tenor-n-contribution to the genre as Mr. Karim has put
up in his post - or accept your inability to do so and state. I like
Rafi because ..I just like him !
Thats all. Or, have a healthy discussion on this forum voicing your
comments....whatever they be. You will get to know the quintessence
qualities of genres of Rafi also, ...thats certainly enlightening !!
Jay
23/9
Jay
Don't show all me all that website.. thats for you and others like
you. Our point of contention is: Rafi's contribution to the genre of
Indian cine music.
Just stick to that.
Jay
23/9
Sukesh
That was not for you. Take the trouble of using your 'wisdom' &
'expertise' and check that my reply indicating the link was to the
original post and not yours.
Regards
Sukesh
Mokammel Karim
Thanks Dr. Singh for revealing your 'decade-wise' preference (though I
was expecting an 'all-time list').
Mokammel Karim
Thanks for the link. I have visited the website before. It had an
interview of rafi's wife.
Sunil Dandekar
Advance apologies for a longish post.
To my mind he was the best singer in HFM. Even LM is second to him in
my eyes or possibly third with AB taking the second spot.
The reasons why I believe he was the best are multiple. All that
appears below is from my perspective. And is more of a tribute to one
of my idols than any mudslinging on his co-singers. But any comparison
is odious to somebody so here it goes.
His voice quality was beyond comparison in HFM very supple; free of
any harshness, static or scratchiness; the cliché' of a velvety voice
fits him well. Secondly any song of his that I hear I always get a
feeling that he is not drawing on his reserve. Whether it is Jaane kya
dhundati rehati, or yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye to kya hai...I
believe that he could have easily tackled couple of notes above/below
what he actually did.
Thirdly he was a very versatile singer. Bhajan, Kawwali, ga{z/jh}al,
sad songs, 'Shammi Kapoor' songs, rustic songs, folk songs, lovey
dovey duets, romantic songs, ICM based songs, philosophical songs, he
always delivered and how. There are very few songs where I get a
feeling that his performance can be improved upon. One such song is
Jab bhi yeh dil udas hota hai... His voice appears very artificial in
the mukhada.
Fourthly he could mould his voice to suit a wide range of characters
and by hearing the song we can very frequently guess the screen
person. It is a different matter that over the years the space for
guesswork is shrinking. .Fifthly the range of notes that he could sing
was one of the widest in HFM.
Versatility comes in many forms. One type of versatility is like a
Udupi rice-plate, where you get everything but not always of the best
quality. The second type is the five star buffet, the variety coupled
with quality that rivals the best. MR’s versatility was of the second
type to my ears.
Because of this enormous versatility he made many songs possible. If
he were not available as a singer I wonder whether composers would
have bothered to compose songs like Dil jo na kaha saka, Paav chhu
lene do , Zindagi bhar nahin , Jo wada kiya who, Jaane kya dhundati ,
Aaja ke injzaar main, Hai duniya usiki, tute hue khabon ne, koi sone
ke dil wala, Tum jo mil gaye ho, Dhadkane lagata hai, Tum ne mujhe
dekha, Kahi ek masoom , Saawan ke mahine main, Din saara guzara tore
angana, Apni aankho main basaakar, Aap ki hasin rukh pain, Kabhi na
kabhi, dil ki tamanna and many others. SJ/OPN/SC/Roshan/Naushad/Madan
Mohan could have been probably half as effective. And the same holds
true for most of the heroes in 50-70s. What would be Shammi Kapoor
without MR? What other frontline singer in those days could have
shared his tumultuous journey?
There is only one factor that comes in his way of being recognized as
a best singer in HFM. His immense popularity in the masses, which
automatically puts him in the sneering range of the classes. This
statement then begs the question what about LM? The answers could be
found in many areas. Careful image building (that includes refusing to
sing ‘lewd’ and ‘bawdy’ songs), being politically correct , access to
a well orchestrated PR machinery, an astute manipulative mind which
always happens to be in the camp that currently enjoys success,
careful bad mouthing of peers who no longer count. There are no known
evidences/anecdotes/articles of MR indulging into this type of antics
that I know of.
Probably his disdain for the duniyadaari endears him to me more. That
image is closer to my idea of an absolute artist, who performs for the
joy of performing, if there is such thing. There are well known
stories where he sang for the newbies for pittance. But I do not want
to go there as the human side of him has no relevance to his stature
as an artist.
MR’s singing prowess can be felt in the absolute, but comparisons can
drive the point home a lot easier. If I compare MR with his peers he
appears to me standing heads and shoulders above the rest.
Perhaps in the quality of voice (sweetness, expressiveness, clarity…)
KLS would be comparable to him but because of the times in which he
ruled, KLS did not get opportunity to sing the wide variety of song
that MR did. Not his fault, but a doubt lingers.
There are probably songs numbering hundred where MR and LM have sung
tandem songs or duets and LM is left high and dry on the high notes.
On this forum I have talked about many examples in support of this
from time to time. (And this is not an exercise to pick up the
observations to suit the experiment. I was not born genetically
predestined to like MR.) Ehsaan tera hoga in male voice gives me a
deep sense of peace while the female version goes like drill in my
ears with its shrillness. While I also regard LM as another gift from
God to us (along with MR and AB) I always prefer MR’s songs to her
renditions for tandem songs.
In case of AB the result is not conclusive. In terms of the range the
versatility she is probably toe to toe with MR. She also appears to be
less constrained to be politically correct, less image conscious,
indulges in more experimentation and toys with different forms of
expression. Tanaha tanaha was an attempt to strike in new direction.
And so was Kambakht ishque.
Manna Dey is probably superior to MR in executing ICM bases songs, but
his range of expression and moods of the songs is so narrow that I do
not think there is a serious competition involved here. Manna Dey,
Mukesh and Hemant Kumar were niche players. They did what they did
exceedingly well, but that was about it.
Comparison with Talat Mehmood is also a non starter because of the
limited range of TM. But to separate wheat from chaff on voice
quality, what is known as thaharav and expressiveness a song like “Ek
chaand aasmaan main ek dil ke paas hai..” is an excellent sieve. TMs
voice stutters and falters like the corporation tap while MR’s glides
over like the streamlined flow over the weir.
Coming to comparison with KK, I would first make a peace offering as I
am treading in a dangerous territory here. There are 2 songs, rare for
me where some other singer has performed better than MR. One of them
is Tu is tarah where Manahar is lot better than MR and another is Tum
bin jau kahan where KK is better than MR. I also think that KK
performed the humorous songs lot better than MR.
With that out of way, I do believe that KK was a distant second to
MR. As compared to the niche players, KK had a wider range of
expression, but mainly confined to the romantic songs, sad songs and
fun songs. Bhajan, Quawwali, ga{z/jh}als not very convincing track
record. Folk songs, rustic songs, philosophic songs again not very
convincing. The range of the notes that KK could comfortably tackle
was narrower as compared to MR. Comparison of KK and MR is possible
only within the domain of SDB and RDB as both of them have utilized
both KK and MR to a significant proportion.
I have remarked elsewhere that pre 70s both composers gave the
difficult songs to MR and the frothy, playful songs to KK. Now it is
very difficult to define what is a difficult song and what is a
playful frothy one is. To avoid the discussion on relativity theory,
I would venture to define difficult as that song which cannot be sung
by common untrained vocal chords with fidelity to original. For
instance I find it extremely difficult to sing Kahin Bekhayal ho kar,
or Akela hun main or Tum ne mujhe dekha or waadiyan mera daaman as
compared to Khwaab ho tum… or are yaar meri…or Oh Hansini…
In my opinion except for yodeling part most of KK songs can be managed
by amateur untrained singers. There are of course quite a few
exceptions otherwise everybody would be a KK. Bequaraar dil is a one
and so are Mere diwaane pan ki bhi dawa nahin, mere mahaboob quayamat
hogi and Nakhare waali.
I have at many places quoted songs where MR sounds better than his co
singers. Would like to know the examples where the reverse is true,
with the caveats on relativity taken under assumption.
regards,
Sunil
Afzal A. Khan
> On Sep 22, 1:39 pm, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
>> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
>> his contribution.
>
> Advance apologies for a longish post.
>
> To my mind he was the best singer in HFM. Even LM is second to him in
> my eyes or possibly third with AB taking the second spot.
> The reasons why I believe he was the best are multiple. All that
> appears below is from my perspective. And is more of a tribute to one
> of my idols than any mudslinging on his co-singers. But any comparison
> is odious to somebody so here it goes.
>
> His voice quality was beyond comparison in HFM very supple; free of
> any harshness, static or scratchiness; the clich�' of a velvety voice
> fits him well. Secondly any song of his that I hear I always get a
> feeling that he is not drawing on his reserve. Whether it is Jaane kya
> dhundati rehati, or yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye to kya hai...I
> believe that he could have easily tackled couple of notes above/below
> what he actually did.
> Thirdly he was a very versatile singer. Bhajan, Kawwali, ga{z/jh}al,
> sad songs, 'Shammi Kapoor' songs, rustic songs, folk songs, lovey
> dovey duets, romantic songs, ICM based songs, philosophical songs, he
> always delivered and how. There are very few songs where I get a
> feeling that his performance can be improved upon. One such song is
> Jab bhi yeh dil udas hota hai... His voice appears very artificial in
> the mukhada.
> Fourthly he could mould his voice to suit a wide range of characters
> and by hearing the song we can very frequently guess the screen
> person. It is a different matter that over the years the space for
> guesswork is shrinking. .Fifthly the range of notes that he could sing
> was one of the widest in HFM.
>
> Versatility comes in many forms. One type of versatility is like a
> Udupi rice-plate, where you get everything but not always of the best
> quality. The second type is the five star buffet, the variety coupled
> with quality that rivals the best. MR�s versatility was of the second
> type to my ears.
> Because of this enormous versatility he made many songs possible. If
> he were not available as a singer I wonder whether composers would
> have bothered to compose songs like Dil jo na kaha saka, Paav chhu
> lene do , Zindagi bhar nahin , Jo wada kiya who, Jaane kya dhundati ,
> Aaja ke injzaar main, Hai duniya usiki, tute hue khabon ne, koi sone
> ke dil wala, Tum jo mil gaye ho, Dhadkane lagata hai, Tum ne mujhe
> dekha, Kahi ek masoom , Saawan ke mahine main, Din saara guzara tore
> angana, Apni aankho main basaakar, Aap ki hasin rukh pain, Kabhi na
> kabhi, dil ki tamanna and many others. SJ/OPN/SC/Roshan/Naushad/Madan
> Mohan could have been probably half as effective. And the same holds
> true for most of the heroes in 50-70s. What would be Shammi Kapoor
> without MR? What other frontline singer in those days could have
> shared his tumultuous journey?
>
> There is only one factor that comes in his way of being recognized as
> a best singer in HFM. His immense popularity in the masses, which
> automatically puts him in the sneering range of the classes. This
> statement then begs the question what about LM? The answers could be
> found in many areas. Careful image building (that includes refusing to
> sing �lewd� and �bawdy� songs), being politically correct , access to
> a well orchestrated PR machinery, an astute manipulative mind which
> always happens to be in the camp that currently enjoys success,
> careful bad mouthing of peers who no longer count. There are no known
> evidences/anecdotes/articles of MR indulging into this type of antics
> that I know of.
> Probably his disdain for the duniyadaari endears him to me more. That
> image is closer to my idea of an absolute artist, who performs for the
> joy of performing, if there is such thing. There are well known
> stories where he sang for the newbies for pittance. But I do not want
> to go there as the human side of him has no relevance to his stature
> as an artist.
>
> MR�s singing prowess can be felt in the absolute, but comparisons can
> drive the point home a lot easier. If I compare MR with his peers he
> appears to me standing heads and shoulders above the rest.
>
> Perhaps in the quality of voice (sweetness, expressiveness, clarity�)
> KLS would be comparable to him but because of the times in which he
> ruled, KLS did not get opportunity to sing the wide variety of song
> that MR did. Not his fault, but a doubt lingers.
>
> There are probably songs numbering hundred where MR and LM have sung
> tandem songs or duets and LM is left high and dry on the high notes.
> On this forum I have talked about many examples in support of this
> from time to time. (And this is not an exercise to pick up the
> observations to suit the experiment. I was not born genetically
> predestined to like MR.) Ehsaan tera hoga in male voice gives me a
> deep sense of peace while the female version goes like drill in my
> ears with its shrillness. While I also regard LM as another gift from
> God to us (along with MR and AB) I always prefer MR�s songs to her
> renditions for tandem songs.
>
> In case of AB the result is not conclusive. In terms of the range the
> versatility she is probably toe to toe with MR. She also appears to be
> less constrained to be politically correct, less image conscious,
> indulges in more experimentation and toys with different forms of
> expression. Tanaha tanaha was an attempt to strike in new direction.
> And so was Kambakht ishque.
>
> Manna Dey is probably superior to MR in executing ICM bases songs, but
> his range of expression and moods of the songs is so narrow that I do
> not think there is a serious competition involved here. Manna Dey,
> Mukesh and Hemant Kumar were niche players. They did what they did
> exceedingly well, but that was about it.
>
> Comparison with Talat Mehmood is also a non starter because of the
> limited range of TM. But to separate wheat from chaff on voice
> quality, what is known as thaharav and expressiveness a song like �Ek
> chaand aasmaan main ek dil ke paas hai..� is an excellent sieve. TMs
> voice stutters and falters like the corporation tap while MR�s glides
> over like the streamlined flow over the weir.
>
> Coming to comparison with KK, I would first make a peace offering as I
> am treading in a dangerous territory here. There are 2 songs, rare for
> me where some other singer has performed better than MR. One of them
> is Tu is tarah where Manahar is lot better than MR and another is Tum
> bin jau kahan where KK is better than MR. I also think that KK
> performed the humorous songs lot better than MR.
> With that out of way, I do believe that KK was a distant second to
> MR. As compared to the niche players, KK had a wider range of
> expression, but mainly confined to the romantic songs, sad songs and
> fun songs. Bhajan, Quawwali, ga{z/jh}als not very convincing track
> record. Folk songs, rustic songs, philosophic songs again not very
> convincing. The range of the notes that KK could comfortably tackle
> was narrower as compared to MR. Comparison of KK and MR is possible
> only within the domain of SDB and RDB as both of them have utilized
> both KK and MR to a significant proportion.
>
> I have remarked elsewhere that pre 70s both composers gave the
> difficult songs to MR and the frothy, playful songs to KK. Now it is
> very difficult to define what is a difficult song and what is a
> playful frothy one is. To avoid the discussion on relativity theory,
> I would venture to define difficult as that song which cannot be sung
> by common untrained vocal chords with fidelity to original. For
> instance I find it extremely difficult to sing Kahin Bekhayal ho kar,
> or Akela hun main or Tum ne mujhe dekha or waadiyan mera daaman as
> compared to Khwaab ho tum� or are yaar meri�or Oh Hansini�
>
> In my opinion except for yodeling part most of KK songs can be managed
> by amateur untrained singers. There are of course quite a few
> exceptions otherwise everybody would be a KK. Bequaraar dil is a one
> and so are Mere diwaane pan ki bhi dawa nahin, mere mahaboob quayamat
> hogi and Nakhare waali.
>
> I have at many places quoted songs where MR sounds better than his co
> singers. Would like to know the examples where the reverse is true,
> with the caveats on relativity taken under assumption.
>
>
> regards,
>
> Sunil
No apologies are needed for such a fine post. Your analytical
approach is to be commended. It is true, though, that your
views are likely to create some controversies. Only to be
expected.
Let us get one or two points out of the way. The word is
"GHazal". Many folks, specially those from Maharashtra,
find it difficult to get this "GH" sound. I always write
this sound with both letters in capital characters, so that
there is no confusion with words like "ghaTa ghan~ghor".
The second word is "Qawwaali". The 'q' sound occurs in
words like "qasam" {'dekh qasam se'}, "qismat", "qeemat"
etc.
Coming to the main issue of comparison, I don't think KLS
could have sung some of the songs (eventually) sung by MR
with the same degree of felicity. For instance, songs
filmed on Johnny Walker or even Shammi Kapoor. It is another
matter that people didn't think in terms of such songs in the
thirties and forties.
Basically, I am a little chary about making comparisons.
For one thing, should we really compare a male singer with a
female singer ? The expectations and requirements are not
quite the same.
Also, it is invidious to make comparisons with other male
singers. Talat Mahmood, Mukesh, even Manna Dey have all been
called "niche singers". That expression, in itslf, is quite
suggestive. All of them have sung songs specially suited to
their respective talents and the actors/situations in the
films. Personally, I doubt whether "JaayeN to jaayeN kahaaN"
("Taxi Driver") would have sounded so sad/sweet, if rendered
by Rafi. Another example would be "Aawaara hooN" by Mukesh,
or "Jaane na nazar" (by the same singer). Music Directors
did choose the singers while assigning songs to them. Roshan,
for instance, had Manna Dey sing "Laaga chunri men daaGH". He
could have given the song to Mukesh (who too sang in the same
film) but he preferred Manna Dey.
I would say that Rafi was a supremely gifted singer and his
versatility was second to none. And his endearing traits
(like modesty, straightforwardness, a charitable disposition,
and complete absence of a manipulative instinct) make him a
truly remarkable person. Verily, a gift from the heavens.
Afzal
Shakes
I think he means Rafi. Unfortunately (that's because KK is my
favourite singer), KK is not particularly known for his humane
qualities. He remains misunderstood, at best.
Deepak
Your questions seem a bit open ended and have spurred a range of
discussions. Perhaps you intended it to do precisely that. In my
opinion, Rafi's contribution is unique. His voice had an unmatched
range. No other singer could actually bring out emotions contained in
the lyrics the way Rafi did. In terms of technique, I think, Kishore
had an edge on him when it came to switching around in the same song
(e.g. kuve.N mei.n kuud ke mar jaanaa, yaar tum shaadii mat karanaa or
famous song from Padosan - ek chatur naar). This is not to say that
Rafi could not do it. Just that I have not seen examples of Rafi
singing these unique type of songs that Kishore did. However, given
one mood, Rafi did better than any one else (in my opinion of course).
Just listening to the countless romantic songs he sang over the years
shows that romance just oozes from his voice. Then there is "yaad naa
jaaye, biite dino.N kii" from Dil Ek Mandir. I can not find another
song sung by any other artiste that can bring out the pathos the way
Rafi's voice in this song did. I am a fan of Talat and Mukesh. Mukesh
seemed to excel in sad songs, but his voice just did not pour the
pathos Rafi poured in the example from Dil Ek Mandir. Talat sang
several excellent romantic and sad songs. I love them. And yet, Rafi
does it a lot better.
As always, opinions above reflect my personal thoughts. That is how I
feel. Not interested in any "debates" that Jay wants. Life is too
short for debates...
Cheers....
Deepak
Shakes
Hi Sunil,
That was a great post. Also, it is understood that, when it comes to
music, esp. playback singing, things are mostly "IMO".
Disclaimer - I am a KK fan, :-).
I agree about Rafi's voice being velvety sweet, and suited for a wide
range of actors and song genres. His versatility is unparalleled, no
question. In the post-Saigal era, the range of notes he could traverse
is arguably wider than any of the other male singers. I say arguably
because there were occasions when I thought he went beyond his comfort
zone (mainly under the baton of Naushad). However, to me, his spectrum
of notes were more heavily loaded towards the upper registers. IMO,
his voice loses it's strength (relatively speaking) in the lower
registers. Sometimes he appears to lose his breath when navigating the
lower registers.
Based on what I have read, here on RMIM, and elsewhere, KLS has as
good a vocal range, if not better.
I would just add my 2 cents to the various comparisions that you have
put out. Firstly, I disagree about using tandem songs to compare male
and female singers. This issue had been debated many times, and, in
general, the tandem songs are composed closer to the male singer's
pitch. LM's range, IMO, is as wide as Rafi's (in the no. of notes
being traversed). To me, Lata's (and Asha's) vocal spectrum is more
balanced (spreading fairly evenly across the lower, middle, and upper
octaves) than Rafi's.
Agree about Manna Dey, Talat, and Mukesh.
Coming to KK, though KK is my favourite singer, I will be the first to
admit that there are certain genres where KK falls short of Rafi
(obvious examples being GHazals, qawwalis, BHajans, ICM based songs).
However, on the same note, IMO, KK leaves everyone else behind when it
comes to fun, romantic, sad, and philosophical songs. The same thing
when it comes to range of notes. KK's range is probably not as wide as
Rafi's, but then KK's spectrum is again a lot more evenly spread
across the three octaves than Rafi's. To me, among Rafi, LM, AB, and
KK, Rafi's vocal range is arguably wider than the rest, but also
relatively a lot more lopsided (I mean more heavily favoured towards
the middle and upper octaves).
I would consider voice control over the range to be as important, if
not more, than the actual range itself, and I think KK acquitted
himself very well there. Within the range he exhibited (roughly 2
octaves - minus yodelling), KK's voice control, during his peak, was
extremely good.
Again, in the '70's, I disagree about the easy, frothy songs being
given to KK and the difficult songs being given to Rafi. Firstly, I
think by the time the 70's came around, Rafi's busy schedule had taken
it's toll. His voice lost a lot of that suppleness, and the constant
high-pitched singing (for Shammi Kapoor, Jeetendra) seemed to bring a
certain "roughness" to his voice that was never there before. I think
KK's voice definitely held up better than Rafi's during this period.
Secondly, KK's songs being easy to sing is more a factor of the MDs
than his capability. MDs like LP, MM, SJ who always favoured Rafi
continued to do so, and their compositions, in general, are less
straightforward than, say, RDB or KA.
Thanks,
Shekar.
Shakes
> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> his contribution.
Since Sunil had already opened a can of worms with his post, and I
have expressed my opinions in my reply to him, I would say, avoiding
any comparisions, that Rafi's contribution is less along the technical
lines, and more so along the style of singing he brought about.
A few years back, I read a book by a musicologist - the name escapes
me, and he made a very good point about Rafi's contribution. He said
something along the lines of Rafi's greatest impact or contribution
being in creating a new prototype in male playback singing in the post-
Saigal phase. And I agree with him
I think, in the beginning of the post-Saigal phase, it was necessary
to recreate a prototype of male playback singing. Changes in the
cinematic content required a voice that had the requisite power and
authority, and the ability to match an array of emerging actors, and
Rafi's voice fit in perfectly.
Shakes
I forgot to mention one more point that I remembered during my reply
to the OP further down.
IMO, it was necessary that Rafi recreate a new style of singing to
stand out from the rest of his peers. Personally, I would say due to
the texture of his voice, I think Rafi wouldn't have done as well had
the Saigal or Talat style of singing continued to be in vogue.
It is, of course, my opinion, but I feel KK would be more suited to
sing in the different styles (Saigal style, Talat style, and Rafi
style) than Rafi.
Also, thanks for a very enjoyable post and debate.
regds,
Shekar.
Mokammel Karim
Voice modulation
Punch or throwing of words
Situational songs
He introduced a new singing style markedly different from the
traditional school (i.e. Saigal, Mukesh, Kishore and their followers).
And he made the alternative style more popular than the traditional
style – so much that it became the mainstream. His followers include
mahendra, anwar, sabbir, aziz, udit, sukhwinder, sonu. I think he is
the most influential singer and had a greater role in the evolution of
Hindi film music compared to any other singer.
Helped in taking classical music to the masses.
He tried different types of songs. I think many people don’t know
that Rafi did some yodeling too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVYBa4S4yVA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0xbgeJ4ts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No2HARfB2ZI
Sunil and Shekar – those were really great posts.
On Sep 23, 3:50 pm, Shakes <kvcsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is, of course, my opinion, but I feel KK would be more suited to
> sing in the different styles (Saigal style, Talat style, and Rafi
> style) than Rafi.
> regds,
> Shekar.
KK (mukesh too) could sing saigal or talat style better than rafi – I
agree. This is because saigal, talat and kk (and mukesh) are from the
same school. Actually kk followed saigal and if we listen to ‘jagmag
karta nikla’ and kk's later songs, its evident that the basic of kk’s
singing is saigalesque and it remained like that throughout his
career. He did add many things - but the skeleton --- always saigal.
surjit singh
> On Sep 22, 1:39 am, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> > playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> > his contribution.
>
> Since Sunil had already opened a can of worms with his post, and I
> have expressed my opinions in my reply to him, I would say, avoiding
> any comparisions, that Rafi's contribution is less along the technical
> lines, and more so along the style of singing he brought about.
>
> A few years back, I read a book by a musicologist - the name escapes
> me, and he made a very good point about Rafi's contribution. He said
Perhaps Ashok Ranade.
Sunil Dandekar
> I agree about Rafi's voice being velvety sweet, and suited for a wide
> range of actors and song genres. His versatility is unparalleled, no
> question. In the post-Saigal era, the range of notes he could traverse
> is arguably wider than any of the other male singers. I say arguably
> because there were occasions when I thought he went beyond his comfort
> zone (mainly under the baton of Naushad). However, to me, his spectrum
> of notes were more heavily loaded towards the upper registers. IMO,
> his voice loses it's strength (relatively speaking) in the lower
> registers. Sometimes he appears to lose his breath when navigating the
> lower registers.
Shekhar would you care to share any examples? I have really not
noticed this anywhere in MR's songs. In fact that is a single fact
that separates the old generation singers (and here I include all the
worthies KLS/MR/LM/AB/KK/Mukesh/HK with possible exception of Talat)
who had absolute mastery over the breath control as compared the
current generation of whiz kids.
8 out of 10 songs of today sound like : da da da da fuss fuss da da da
da fuss fuss. What puzzles me is now with the modern technology it is
possible to filter out the gasps. Why don't they do it? May be they
want the music to be truly universal. Everybody can sing the song as
bad as the original.
The remaining 2 are likely to be from Sonu Nigam , Shaan , Abhijit or
Shreya Ghoshal and few others.
> Based on what I have read, here on RMIM, and elsewhere, KLS has as
> good a vocal range, if not better.
>
> I would just add my 2 cents to the various comparisions that you have
> put out. Firstly, I disagree about using tandem songs to compare male
> and female singers. This issue had been debated many times, and, in
> general, the tandem songs are composed closer to the male singer's
> pitch. LM's range, IMO, is as wide as Rafi's (in the no. of notes
> being traversed). To me, Lata's (and Asha's) vocal spectrum is more
> balanced (spreading fairly evenly across the lower, middle, and upper
> octaves) than Rafi's.
Any example of LM's song sung in really lower pitch are really rare
and offhand I can not remember any. I would beg to differ with you, as
I feel that LM was more comfortable in the high pitch singing. IMO AB
is far more superior in balanced vocal spectrum as compared to LM.
There is a little silly song, Tauba Tauba kya hoga by Asha. It is a
wonderful piece of singing. The stanzas and the aalaaps include
random changes in the note locations in the scale and she does it so
easily. The aalaap aa aa ah aa oh o oh.. first in low pitch and then
in the higher octave is sung really well.
> Agree about Manna Dey, Talat, and Mukesh.
>
> Coming to KK, though KK is my favourite singer, I will be the first to
> admit that there are certain genres where KK falls short of Rafi
> (obvious examples being GHazals, qawwalis, BHajans, ICM based songs).
> However, on the same note, IMO, KK leaves everyone else behind when it
> comes to fun, romantic, sad, and philosophical songs. The same thing
> when it comes to range of notes. KK's range is probably not as wide as
> Rafi's, but then KK's spectrum is again a lot more evenly spread
> across the three octaves than Rafi's. To me, among Rafi, LM, AB, and
> KK, Rafi's vocal range is arguably wider than the rest, but also
> relatively a lot more lopsided (I mean more heavily favoured towards
> the middle and upper octaves).
I am sure you must have heard Ek hasin shaam ko multiple times. Don't
you think that in that song Rafi's control is phenomenal? And what
about yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye to kya hai? and "Dil ek mandir
hai?" or Aaj kal main dhal gaya. There could be disputes about whether
these songs are divine or trash but what about the singing and the
control?
> I would consider voice control over the range to be as important, if
> not more, than the actual range itself, and I think KK acquitted
> himself very well there. Within the range he exhibited (roughly 2
> octaves - minus yodelling), KK's voice control, during his peak, was
> extremely good.
>
> Again, in the '70's, I disagree about the easy, frothy songs being
> given to KK and the difficult songs being given to Rafi. Firstly, I
> think by the time the 70's came around, Rafi's busy schedule had taken
> it's toll. His voice lost a lot of that suppleness, and the constant
> high-pitched singing (for Shammi Kapoor, Jeetendra) seemed to bring a
> certain "roughness" to his voice that was never there before. I think
> KK's voice definitely held up better than Rafi's during this period.
> Secondly, KK's songs being easy to sing is more a factor of the MDs
> than his capability. MDs like LP, MM, SJ who always favoured Rafi
> continued to do so, and their compositions, in general, are less
> straightforward than, say, RDB or KA.
I agree with you here. Post 70 there was really no question about who
was at the top of the heap. But were there any difficult songs post
70? The whole pattern of music was changed by RDB single handedly.
Rest only tried to catch up with him. His composition style was very
different. Very catchy but simple to sing. That also contributes a lot
to success of KK post 70, by that I am not taking anything away from
KK's success.
regards,
Sunil
Vishwanath
> On Sep 22, 4:00 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
'Evaluating' Rafi is such a futile exercize. When I look at beautiful
sunrise, I never get the urge to say 'i wish the red was a little
redder around the edges'. It is what it is ... and what an 'it' it is
(Rafi's voice, that is). You just experience it and feel happy that we
lived at a time when it was possble to enjoy this person's talent.
I feel the same way about Lata, KK, Asha,and all these other amazing
artists .... but Rafi_saab ka hai andaz_e_bayaan aur. For me, on a
scale of 'Mahendra Kapoor to Mohd Rafi', all other singers end up
being somewhere in between.
Vishwanath
Archisman
Dear Mr. Dandekar,
That was a fantastic post.
With your kind permission, can I please share it with a few of my
friends (with the content and the author-details intact)?
Warm regards.
Archisman.
Sunil Dandekar
>
> - Show quoted text -
Please do sir. Thanks for the kind words.
regards,
Sunil
Sukesh
> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> his contribution.
Sunil has done a remarkable job in highlighting Mohammad Rafi's
constibution to film music.
Thank you, Sunil.
Whenever I listen to a Rafi songs, I just listen and marvel at his
versatility. No other singer evokes such a response consistently,
except for a stray song here and there.
Regards
Sukesh
Jay
How many songs of RAFI SOLOS have you got/and heard umpteen no.of
times to make any evaluation of the sort u r making on the forum ??
- When u came last to my place for that session: Toote dil ki pukar..u
remember?
- How many songs of Rafi could u decipher instantaneaously?
BE HONEST, please ! Confine yr answers to the point, please .
Secondly:
Suppose you were presented with 5 clear pictures of Md.Rafi: 20-22 yr
old Rafi singing under /Ghulam Hyder /Pt.Gobindram / Shyam Sunder;
30-35 yrs old Rafi singing under Naushd/Ghulam Mohd; 40yr old Rafi
singing under S-J or S.D.Burman or Cuitragupta or Roshan; 50 yr old
Rafi singing under L-P.....which picture would u opt, presuming u
would like to adorn ur living room.
Remember, u have to pick ONLY ONE PIC.!
Also, state why did u pick up that particular pic..why? Let me READ
YOUR MINDSET - and remember you have already made statement on the
forum.
Mr.Sukesh & Mr Sunil too are welcome to answer my questions ,presuming
it is addressed to them also.
PIC / TENOR / ..do they go hand-in-hand? If it is PIC...which PIC.? If
it is TENOR...which TENOR of RAFI aged what?
Afzaljee, and Profjee also are requested to join and comply
accordingly.
Those aged LESS THAN 35 yrs lack listening maturity despite the fact
that everything of Rafi's singing is at their disposal.
He may be yr hot favorite...true. Just keep it to yrselves and cherish
it . Nothing more !!
Jay
25/9
Deepak
Hello Jay,
Like I said in my post, I will not engage in debate with you. I will
suggest that you study the wisdom in many of Kabir's dohas. In
particular the following two dohas come to mind.
पोथी पढ़ पढ़ जग मुआ, पंडित भया न कोई
ढाई आखर प्रेम का, पढ़े सो पंडित होई
बड़ा हुआ तो क्या हुआ, जैसे पेड़ खजूर
पंथी को साया नहीं, फल लागे अति दूर
Deepak
UVR
I will pick the ~27-40 year old Rafi, singing for ANY music director.
Oh, also: if you are >70 years old, then please keep your opinions to
yourself about people <35 years old.
-UVR.
Shakes
Hi Sunil,
I cannot think of too many songs but a couple that come to mind right
now are "Yahan badla wafa ka" from "Jugnu" (a duet with Noor Jehan),
"Meri kahani bhoolne waale" from "Deedar" (near " ... bhoolne waale").
Some other songs that don't come to mind right now.
Obviously, today's singers pale in comparision (except for Sonu,
Shankar, Sunidhi, and Shreya Ghoshal), as technology has made it a lot
more easier to cover up any short comings.
> > Based on what I have read, here on RMIM, and elsewhere, KLS has as
> > good a vocal range, if not better.
>
> > I would just add my 2 cents to the various comparisions that you have
> > put out. Firstly, I disagree about using tandem songs to compare male
> > and female singers. This issue had been debated many times, and, in
> > general, the tandem songs are composed closer to the male singer's
> > pitch. LM's range, IMO, is as wide as Rafi's (in the no. of notes
> > being traversed). To me, Lata's (and Asha's) vocal spectrum is more
> > balanced (spreading fairly evenly across the lower, middle, and upper
> > octaves) than Rafi's.
>
> Any example of LM's song sung in really lower pitch are really rare
> and offhand I can not remember any. I would beg to differ with you, as
> I feel that LM was more comfortable in the high pitch singing. IMO AB
> is far more superior in balanced vocal spectrum as compared to LM.
> There is a little silly song, Tauba Tauba kya hoga by Asha. It is a
> wonderful piece of singing. The stanzas and the aalaaps include
> random changes in the note locations in the scale and she does it so
> easily. The aalaap aa aa ah aa oh o oh.. first in low pitch and then
> in the higher octave is sung really well.
>
Comparing LM and AB is very difficult and to date, I don't think
anybody has made a case either way, :-). I only meant to say that LM
is comparatively more at ease in the lower registers than Rafi. In
general, female songs are pitched higher, but some songs of LM like
"Mohe bhool gaye saawariyaa" (mukhda), "Uthaaye ja unke sitam", some
parts of "Seene mein sulagte hain armaan" are rendered well in the
lower scale.
There might be better examples though.
> > Agree about Manna Dey, Talat, and Mukesh.
>
> > Coming to KK, though KK is my favourite singer, I will be the first to
> > admit that there are certain genres where KK falls short of Rafi
> > (obvious examples being GHazals, qawwalis, BHajans, ICM based songs).
> > However, on the same note, IMO, KK leaves everyone else behind when it
> > comes to fun, romantic, sad, and philosophical songs. The same thing
> > when it comes to range of notes. KK's range is probably not as wide as
> > Rafi's, but then KK's spectrum is again a lot more evenly spread
> > across the three octaves than Rafi's. To me, among Rafi, LM, AB, and
> > KK, Rafi's vocal range is arguably wider than the rest, but also
> > relatively a lot more lopsided (I mean more heavily favoured towards
> > the middle and upper octaves).
>
> I am sure you must have heard Ek hasin shaam ko multiple times. Don't
> you think that in that song Rafi's control is phenomenal? And what
> about yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye to kya hai? and "Dil ek mandir
> hai?" or Aaj kal main dhal gaya. There could be disputes about whether
> these songs are divine or trash but what about the singing and the
> control?
>
>
Oh, I have no complaints about the renditions at all. It is just that
there are almost no songs that I can think of that are set to, say, E1
or F1 scale.
There are some songs of even RDB - "Mere bhole balam", "Tum bin jaun
kahan", "Kuch to log kahenge", "Chingari koi bhadke", "Main shaayar
badnaam" etc. that are not so easy to render. Most of RDB's songs are
pretty straightforward, though.
Some SDB examples include "Duniya o duniya", "badi sooni sooni hai",
"Khilte hain gul yahan".
Other good songs of KK from the 70's include "Yeh vahi geet hai",
"Guzar jaaye din", songs from "Anurodh" (though he was starting to
slide off his peak around this time, IMO), songs from "Swami", "Des
Pardes" are also not very straightforward.
-Shekar.
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't get pinched at all..honestly with such sort of retort. What I
had stated wa in general...under 35 yrs of age LACK listening maturity
to catch up with the quintessence of music thats woven into a melody
by the concerned MD. My age isis 69 currently - I was passionate
right from my school going days- Rafi / NAUSHAD ALI were the ONLY
SINGER,MD who were my hot favorites thence. Over the years when my
cine music area began to expandslowly, my study of various tenors &
MDs coupled with Tamil cine music voices/MDs gathered unbelievable
momentum even to this day - the evidence exists in my 160 gb USB hard
disk all in FLAC format - absolutely top class recordings One can get
to hear the grandeur voice of Ghantasala under the great legendary
G.Ramanathan in a film of 1953. Md.Rafi can never, never come to the
class and range of singer T.R.Mahalingam, both on the lower and higher
octaves.
In those days, top playback singer: T.M.Sounderrajan had to sing
following a 6-minute rendering by T.R.Mahalingam in a devotional film,
music composed by GR. When TMS took cognizance of this , he ran
suddenly to GR and explained his anxiety about his performing
capability knowing well that he had to match the range of TRM. The MD:
GR who was busy in a recording schedule pacified the young TMS and
said: Don't worry young man: You too are very good - but I am there to
see you through and if necessary I can always alter/amend the portion
needed to match your skills !
So, all, said and done: 35 yrs or 70yrs or 107 yrs...age is no
criterion for opining your experience when it comes to a subject like
the one put up by Karim.
Be honest to yourself: Ask yourself: Am I really worth commenting on
the tenor of Md.Rafi and his ROLE (the tenor/rendition) in the genre
of Indian cine music.
The real credit goes to the MD concerned - the singer is just the
'medium'. of the MD, who selects his pick for his creationand upto
THAT TIME Md.Rafi is totally ignorant about the song and its
properties and the MD's way / manner/ method of accomplishing from
this selected choice of singer.
Jay
26/9
Asif
>
> There are some songs of even RDB - "Mere bhole balam", "Tum bin jaun
> kahan", "Kuch to log kahenge", "Chingari koi bhadke", "Main shaayar
> badnaam" etc. that are not so easy to render. Most of RDB's songs are
> pretty straightforward, though.
Straightforward? I have no clue if you meant to pass compliment on RDB
with this sentence or just dismissed him off. A whole lot of his
compositions were anything but straightforward - instead they were
imaginatively, uniquely, and brilliantly crafted and brought out the
best in his singers. Just like nobody can ever render the songs that
you listed above exactly as the original singers did, no other singer
can ever recreate the magic of such random songs as 'tumane mujhe
dekhaa' (Teesri Manzil, 1966), 'aajaa aajaa mai.n huu.N' (Teesri
Manzil, 1966), 'piyaa tuu ab to aajaa' (Caravan, 1971), 'ye jo
mohabbat hai' (Kati Patang, 1970), 'aao aao jaan-e-jahaa.N' (Gomti Ke
Kinare, 1972), 'baaho.n me.n chale aao' (Anamika, 1973), 'ai jaan-e-
wafaa' (Chhalia, 1973), 'jai jai shiv sha.nkar' (Aap Ki Kasam, 1974),
'zi.ndagii ke safar me.n' (Aap Ki Kasam, 1974), 'terii merii
yaarii' (Charitraheen, 1974), 'sapanaa meraa TuuT gayaa' (Khel Khel
Mein, 1975), 'koii aayaa aane bhii de' (Kala Sona, 1975), 'chaa.nd
meraa dil' (Hum Kisise Kum Naheen, 1977), 'aapasaa koii
hasii.n' (Chandi Sona, 1977), and 'aane waalaa pal' (Golmaal, 1979),
too. RDB was possibly the only MD in the '70s who completely
understood the strengths and limits of those 5 top mainstream singers
KK, Rafi, Lata, Asha, and Mukesh, and used them beautifully in most of
his songs.
It is futile to compare a singer with other singers while discussing
his/her contribution to HFM. All those immortal singers, including
Mahendra Kapoor, contributed memorably within their natural singing
limits to HFM. As someone nicely said on this thread, I would not
want to pick at a beautiful sunrise if I spontaneously love it.
Likewise if I love a song, be it Rafi's or KK's or Lata's, I would
never tear it apart in pursuit of potholes in it. I find it amusing
to see people judging a singer by how difficult his/her song is for
them to sing. I thought that you can never replicate even the
simplest songs of those singers either. Frankly, I have never ever
enjoyed a second-hand rendition of an original song even if the
original singer sang it later on stage or elsewhere - I just do not
like such performances at all.
Asif
Sunil Dandekar
> On Sep 25, 6:57 pm, Shakes <kvcsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There are some songs of even RDB - "Mere bhole balam", "Tum bin jaun
> > kahan", "Kuch to log kahenge", "Chingari koi bhadke", "Main shaayar
> > badnaam" etc. that are not so easy to render. Most of RDB's songs are
> > pretty straightforward, though.
>
> Straightforward? I have no clue if you meant to pass compliment on RDB
> with this sentence or just dismissed him off. A whole lot of his
> compositions were anything but straightforward - instead they were
> imaginatively, uniquely, and brilliantly crafted and brought out the
> best in his singers.
Asif ji, do you think it is possible that a song is very beautiful,
melodious, well crafted but still easy to sing for a layman? I think
that was the biggest strength and greatness of RDB, he could home in
on a natural tune for a song very quickly and express the tune in a
very simple note sequence. The indirect support of this statement is
that in RDB's songs lyrics parts are very easy to play on any
instruments but the preludes and interludes are often difficult. (case
in point Aaja Aaja...)
If I borrow example from the list of extra ordinary songs that you
quoted above, Baaho main chale aao is a very beautiful song and very
well crafted one. I could write paragraphs about the song without
capturing the essence of it. But do you think that it is difficult
song to sing?
I beg to differ with you here. I heard Phoolon ke rang se sung by
Abhijit and to my ears it sounded better than KK. His rendering was
more soulful to me. But then that is personal opinion.
regards,
Sunil
Shakes
Yes, I think you are right. I googled Ashok Ranade, and I think the
book is "Hindi Film Song".
I remember he covered a lot of the other MDs and singers, though I
found it too explanatory.
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Depak:
You are a nice man, in general. Why u get Kabir and his dohas. These
are meant for those who have no answers to legitimate questions
concerning the topic of discusion.
Only those music minded persons who have HEARD and thoroughly digested
Md.Rafi's renditions without any prejudice whatsoever ...meaning: to
dump / undermine Rafi's singing capability as and when they seem to
emerge.To accomplish this, one has to digest a lot of Rafi's
renditions. MEANING: Music of Sajjad; L-P; K-A;;etc though tbhe
composers were skilled in their individualities...but failed ( in the
analytical POV) to exploit Rafi's singing abilities that were so
beautifully groomed by Feroze Nizami; Gulam Hyder; Pt.Gobindram; Sham
Sunder; Naushad; Ghulam Mohd; Hansraj Bahl; Shankar Rao Vyas.
Did u notice the power of those MDs and the qunintessece of melody
woven into their mantle of music fabric and rendered by Rafi. Thats
exactly the CONTRIBUTION to the GENRE of Indian cine music. The finest
example I can offer: Aye dil meri aahen...ACTRESS ('48) & Hum apne dil
ka fasana....ACTRESS ('48). Mai teri, tu mera....Aap Ki Sewa Mein ('47)
from Datta Davjekar; Sab kuchh lutaya hamne...CHUNARIYA ('48) of
Hansraj Bahl; and a quite a good many from Chitragupta; & not to
forget Pt.Gobindram's exquisite charms woven in Rafi's voice as well
as that of Feroze Nizami's 'tarana' from AMAR RAJ ('46).
The younger generation music lovers may have all these melodies
accessible to them...but the mooting point! Hiow much have you really
digested them and learnt to analyse them in Rafi's young voice with
those usual murkis, adaayegi; .
Even in S-J's music, in the jugalbandi with the great Mst Krishna Rao
Chonkar from POOJA('54), Rafi's portion (playbacked for the hero in
the film) falls short of redemption ,generally. Likewise, it was
another stale rendition opposite Mst Krishna Rao Chonkar from Rani
Rupmati ('59). Simply raising the voice in a crescendo does not mean,
Rafi can accomplish everything . He really falls flat vs Khan Mastana
in the Laila Majnu9'55) qawwaali. MERA SALAM('57) is yet another
example , where the honors were stolen by Bande Hassan qawwaal..
He did fare well in the first TRIO of Laila Majnu('45) alongwith
Batish & Khan Mastana..but the latter stole everything, nevertheless.
UPS and DOWNs are bound to be there always - but coming up to the MD's
desired expectations is something very unique and cherishable.
Jay
26/9
Deepak
Now that was a very informative analysis. Thank you.
Deepak
Jay
No hard feelings,please. Deepak
Jay
27/9
Deepak
Life is too short to nurse any hard feelings dear Jay.
बुरा जो देखन मैं चला, बुरा न मिलया कोई
जो मन खोजा आपना, मुझसे बुरा न कोई
Deepak
Afzal A. Khan
>
> Life is too short to nurse any hard feelings dear Jay.
>
> बुरा जो देखन मैं चला, बुरा न मिलया कोई
> जो मन खोजा आपना, मुझसे बुरा न कोई
>
> Deepak
On the same theme, here is a quatrain by noted Urdu poet
Zauq :
Tu bhala hai to bura ho naheeN sakta ai dost
Woh KHud bura hai jo tujh ko bura jaan'ta hai
Aur gar tu bura hai, to woh sach kehta hai
KyoN bura kehne se tu us ke bura maan'ta hai ?
Afzal
Jay
> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> his contribution.
Come on folks - I have had my say on Md.Karim's post in discussion.
I am not like writers or pseudo journalists who have the reputation
of scribbling anything through their vernaculars/publications/columns
on the subject of Indian cine music.
Here is a person, ready to enter into any length of arguments/
discussion alongwith PERFECT AURAL DOCUMENTATION of Bharatiya Cine
Sangeet Parampara (BCSP) - both Hindi as well as Tamil cine music from
1931-65 on FLAC format.
I love confrontation and desire to see it on this forum on a
healthy,constructive account to enable the 'not haves' to get
themselves enlightened in contrast with 'written informative
knowledge' from well known scribes spread all over everywhere.
Jay
28/9
Sunil Dandekar
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jay saab aap ka pyaala to poora bhara hai. Ek boond aur samaane ki
gunjaish nahin. Phir bhi........
Your statement about real credit going to MD was very interesting.
While there are different viewpoints on what proportion of credit
should go to whom, would you like to comment on the what effectiveness
the MR songs could have been if they were recorded in say your or my
voice?
I agree that till MR heard the tune for the first time from the MD, he
was totally ignorant about the song, but how is that relevant? Do you
know any instance where both the singer and the composer came to know
about the song in totality simultaneously? (Other than SDB and RDB or
Madan Mohan singing for themselves?)
Even for a MD the song does not manifest itself in its full glory when
the first germ is born. It evolves. But all this has nothing to do
with MR's contribution. I can say that without hearing KC being pitted
against MR.
Let me ask you something. If MR was pitted against Narendra Chanchal
in say Yaara ho yaara or Beshaque mandir masjid todo, may be MR would
have come off second best. Does this take away anything from MRs
contribution to HFM. I think not.
regards,
Sunil
A S MURTY
Jay Sahab, with due regards to you and all others on this forum, I
found the topic interesting enough and have been reading comments from
most. I was struck with your observation "The real credit goes to the
MD concerned - the singer is just the
'medium'. of the MD, who selects his pick for his creationand upto
THAT TIME Md.Rafi is totally ignorant about the song and its
properties and the MD's way / manner/ method of accomplishing from
this selected choice of singer.". Here I would like to differ in as
much as Rafi Sahab is concerned. Agreed, the MD is the one who picks
the singer and guides him/her into singing a song in any particular
way. There are songs however of Rafi Sahab, which have been rendered
much beyond the realms of some of the MDs and they must have all been
dumbfounded with the expressions and the feel generated by Rafi Sahab.
Hence, in hundreds of songs, the singer too makes all the difference
and dishes out better than the imagination of the MD concerned. Sorry
to take you all on a slighly different path, without even as much as
giving examples. But then, for such a knowledgeable group, quoting
examples should not matter. You can decipher from some of the best
songs of your choices to co-relate with what I have written, and in
some cases the singer need not necessarily be Mohd Rafi.
A S MURTY
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Look Mr.Sunil:
You are a Maharashtrian and I , a Tamilian. MUSIC, is very strongly
bonded in the two cultures, particularly in tamil films of the old
ever since the 40s. Thats my study. You must have heard about the Late
D.Amel of AIR, aka known as Dinkar Rao Amembal. He did give music to
a couple of Hindi films between '47-'50 but his most popular tune was
the AIR Orchestra in Kannada and on the reverse was a Piloo tune for
AIR's Gaokari Mandali. I hope I am not wrong ?
Some enlightenment for you now:
This Dinkar Rao worked as Assistant to G.Ramanathan for a 1953 Tamil
musical hit: SHYAMALA, produced by a group of Andhra Producers with
the legendary M.K.Thyagaraja Bhagwadhar in the lead. The film flopped
commercially, but the music absolutely fantastic. One has to hear the
songs to base an opinion.
There was another old Marathi mythological film titled GORA KUMBHAR.
This film too was adapted to be remade in Tamil, entitled: SUDARSHAN
('50) with once again G.Ramanathan scoring some brilliant
compositions .The film was directed by Sunder Rao Nadkarni In some of
the songs of this film, Panduranga is very beatifully idolized. These
arwe known as genres of music. When it comes to Classical or
Devotional, GR was at his best, always ! But more of him, later.
I leave Tamil now and take up Hindi.
To be very honest, Md.Rafi was first spotted by Shyam Sunder as a
young boy humming around and assisting his father, who was a butcher.
SS liked his voice and discussed it with friend producer; Satish Batra
for his forthcoming Punjabi film: Gul Balochin 1944. Though the songs
were recorded on the track , the picture was very much delayed due to
tensions prevailing and gwas realwased in and around 1949.
SS truly groomed Rafi for his young magnetic,manly voice. Feroze
Nizami provided apt classical invocation to Rafi and ably supported by
Pt.Govindram in his inimitable style. Thats the real MD.Rafi whose
voice was first fully exploited by these Punjabi stalwarts. The genre
of Indian cine music got gradually imbibed in Rafi from these
legendary composers. Followed up with Naushad ( but he had no genre as
such in 1944) and C.Ramchandra in lighter styles over the years.
Husnlal, who himself got groomed under his elder brother,Pt.Amarnath,
was the second man who was responsible for Md Rafi's success with
Pyar Ki Jeet, Bapu Ki Amar Kahani, Badi Bahen...etcThere were no
redeeming genres as such in the music of H-B, but certainly YES, in
that of Shyam Sunder or Gobindram. Further on, its history.
The genres are the creations of the MD concerned...and not everyone of
them could create. For example, Rafi has sung quite a good many solos
between 1946 and 48 for films ..but these songs lacked lustre. His
voice is good but there is no 'masala' in the tunes.
Moving ahead after 1950, genres began to decline ( meaning the
Parampara of Indian Cine Music) since the songs were made lighter and
Rafi's crescendos were effectively utilized.
Who gets the credit for Rafi's voiced songs then??
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly, the MD primarily..followed by the singer(s) for attempting
to come upto the MD's expectations. Musicians too, get sizable
proportion of the credit as well as the sound recordist..After all,
its a team work, na??
Jay
28/9
sanjeev.r...@gmail.com
> On Sep 25, 11:12 pm, Deepak <deepak_sab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Only those music minded persons who have HEARD and thoroughly digested
> Md.Rafi's renditions without any prejudice whatsoever ...meaning: to
> dump / undermine Rafi's singing capability as and when they seem to
> emerge.To accomplish this, one has to digest a lot of Rafi's
> renditions. MEANING: Music of Sajjad; L-P; K-A;;etc though tbhe
> composers were skilled in their individualities...but failed ( in the
> analytical POV) to exploit Rafi's singing abilities that were so
> beautifully groomed by Feroze Nizami; Gulam Hyder; Pt.Gobindram; Sham
> Sunder; Naushad; Ghulam Mohd; Hansraj Bahl; Shankar Rao Vyas.
Agree with much of this, but as usual you assume that such power to
discern is exclusive to you (or at best, your generation).
> Did u notice the power of those MDs and the qunintessece of melody
> woven into their mantle of music fabric and rendered by Rafi. Thats
> exactly the CONTRIBUTION to the GENRE of Indian cine music. The finest
> example I can offer: Aye dil meri aahen...ACTRESS ('48) & Hum apne dil
> ka fasana....ACTRESS ('48). Mai teri, tu mera....Aap Ki Sewa Mein ('47)
> from Datta Davjekar; Sab kuchh lutaya hamne...CHUNARIYA ('48) of
> Hansraj Bahl;
Agree about the Actress songs. The Chunariya song is too morose and
melodramatic (the way he throws his voice on the descending
"Hamne~~~~~" and "Gali Men~~~~~~" is grating after several listens),
and the composition as a whole is okay.
> and a quite a good many from Chitragupta; & not to
> forget Pt.Gobindram's exquisite charms woven in Rafi's voice as well
> as that of Feroze Nizami's 'tarana' from AMAR RAJ ('46).
I'm assuming you're talking about "Main Jab Gaaoon Geet Suhaana" here
(if so, it's not a "taraana" as a whole). The composition has some
interesting features and Rafi sounds nice in the upper register (e.g.
"Koyaliya Ab Gaaye, Gaaye Madhur Taraana"). However, the scale is a
bit uncomfortably low for him (safed-1), and the quicker portions
(particularly the sargams) are hammered out with all the grace of a
machine gun - equal fault to composer and singer here IMO. This
wouldn't make my "exquisite" list.
> The younger generation music lovers may have all these melodies
> accessible to them...but the mooting point! Hiow much have you really
> digested them and learnt to analyse them in Rafi's young voice with
> those usual murkis, adaayegi; .
More of your presumptions...
> Even in S-J's music, in the jugalbandi with the great Mst Krishna Rao
> Chonkar from POOJA('54), Rafi's portion (playbacked for the hero in
> the film) falls short of redemption ,generally. Likewise, it was
> another stale rendition opposite Mst Krishna Rao Chonkar from Rani
> Rupmati ('59). Simply raising the voice in a crescendo does not mean,
> Rafi can accomplish everything .
Very true - taar saptak = "brahmaastra". It is seemingly on this basis
that Manna Dey finally "wins" the Basant Bahaar jugalbandi over Pt.
Bhimsen Joshi. However, you are hardly the first to call out such
shortcomings in Mohd. Rafi's classically-based renditions on RMIM. In
particular, the Rani Roopmati song has been mentioned several times.
Rafi acquits himself slightly better in the Pooja song - in
particular, right after one of his "voice-raising" forays, he takes a
nice descending taan coming back into "Ruk-Tham Ke Chaand Chale..."
Sanjeev
UVR
<sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even in S-J's music, in the jugalbandi with the great Mst Krishna Rao
> > Chonkar from POOJA('54), Rafi's portion (playbacked for the hero in
> > the film) falls short of redemption ,generally. Likewise, it was
> > another stale rendition opposite Mst Krishna Rao Chonkar from Rani
> > Rupmati ('59). Simply raising the voice in a crescendo does not mean,
> > Rafi can accomplish everything .
>
> Very true - taar saptak = "brahmaastra". It is seemingly on this basis
> that Manna Dey finally "wins" the Basant Bahaar jugalbandi over Pt.
> Bhimsen Joshi. However, you are hardly the first to call out such
> shortcomings in Mohd. Rafi's classically-based renditions on RMIM. In
> particular, the Rani Roopmati song has been mentioned several times.
> Rafi acquits himself slightly better in the Pooja song - in
> particular, right after one of his "voice-raising" forays, he takes a
> nice descending taan coming back into "Ruk-Tham Ke Chaand Chale..."
>
>
Not only I, but even my ~5 year old will agree with this
assessment :-) The madhuvanti from Pooja is in many ways the better
song, Rafi's voice itself being in finer fettle (in my opinion).
But, of course, Rafi was no Chonkar when it came to singing classical
filmi songs.
By the same token, Rafi was no Chonkar when it came to singing film
songs. And aren't we all glad he wasn't. I can't imagine Chonkar
singing "taaron ki zubaan par hai muhabbat ki kahaani" or "do ghadi
woh jo paas aa baiThe" and having it sound even 10% as good as Rafi
did. Can you? To use Jay-style language, "simply being able to sing
superior classical taans does not mean Chonkar can do everything."
-UVR.
ek bharateeya
> Sunil Dandekar wrote:
> > On Sep 22, 1:39 pm, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> >> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> >> his contribution.
>
>
>
> > Versatility comes in many forms. One type of versatility is like a
> > Udupi rice-plate, where you get everything but not always of the best
> > quality. The second type is the five star buffet, the variety coupled
> > with quality that rivals the best. MR’s versatility was of the second
> > type to my ears.
> > Because of this enormous versatility he made many songs possible. If
> > he were not available as a singer I wonder whether composers would
> > have bothered to compose songs like Dil jo na kaha saka, Paav chhu
> > lene do ,
>
>
> > regards,
>
> > Sunil
>
> No apologies are needed for such a fine post. Your analytical
> approach is to be commended. It is true, though, that your
> views are likely to create some controversies. Only to be
> expected.
>
> Let us get one or two points out of the way. The word is
> "GHazal". Many folks, specially those from Maharashtra,
> find it difficult to get this "GH" sound. I always write
> this sound with both letters in capital characters, so that
> there is no confusion with words like "ghaTa ghan~ghor".
> The second word is "Qawwaali". The 'q' sound occurs in
> words like "qasam" {'dekh qasam se'}, "qismat", "qeemat"
> etc.
>
[...]
>
> Afzal
afzal:
it would have been nice if you were to have cast your spotlight on
'paav chhu lene do' as well (tangentially speaking, were i kishore
kumar, i would sing 'jalebi (or zalebi) khaa lene do' at the next rmim
meet for sure). isn't 'paav' incorrect in urdu as well?
- e.b.
Afzal A. Khan
> On Sep 23, 12:10 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Sunil Dandekar wrote:
>>> On Sep 22, 1:39 pm, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
>>>> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
>>>> his contribution.
>>> Advance apologies for a longish post.
> [...]
>>> Versatility comes in many forms. One type of versatility is like a
>>> Udupi rice-plate, where you get everything but not always of the best
>>> quality. The second type is the five star buffet, the variety coupled
It would be correct in Urdu, if used in the sense of
"one-fourth".
Afzal
Jay
> ek bharateeya wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 12:10 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> Sunil Dandekar wrote:
> >>> On Sep 22, 1:39 pm, Mokammel Karim <mktoufi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> What do the RMIM members think is rafi's contribution to the hindi
> >>>> playback genre. Hope the learned RMIM members would evaluate/discuss
> >>>> his contribution.
> >>> Advance apologies for a longish post.
> > [...]
> >>> Versatility comes in many forms. One type of versatility is like a
> >>> Udupi rice-plate, where you get everything but not always of the best
> >>> quality. The second type is the five star buffet, the variety coupled
>
> - Show quoted text -
A very general statement , now; I am making on behalf of BCSP.
Despite the fact that thousands of songs or even more are accessible
on Profjee's site FREE OF COST, at any moment of time ( resolution key
is not the criterion, please ) from the inception of the first
'talkie' in 1931. + the individual rare collections each connoisseur
could be nurturing (excluding me) - whats appalling is the TOTAL LACK
OF INITIATIVE / PASSION on the individual's part to CONFRONT ANY
'crisis' diplomatically or cunningly, as the case may be; and to see
his/her favourites triumph in an open debate.
To accomplish this, one has to come readily prepared without any
books / vernaculars / publications - sit aamne-samne and provide your
versions with documentons or sing it orally as a 'jhalak'.
But 'afsos', our famous RMIMers do not have THE TIME to engage in such
stupid activities - but they do possess articulation strategy,
deploying LOGIC ...western. They keep on beating round the bush
without any traceable solutions.
Why does this happen.. I keep asking to myself. Was I not a Md.Rafi
before I started research? I used to like no male singer other than
Rafi and MD: Naushad. I used to think that there was no other MD who
could score over Naushad.
I used to hate Talat once upon a time... simply switch off the radio.-
switch it on if there was a RAFI song played.. Now, I keep laughing to
myself, looking back over the years.
In contrast, the RMIMers on this forum seem only to have a blind faith
or obsession on Md Rafi's tenor. Just because. Naushad, G.Mohd or
Opee have exploited Rafi's voice to the hilt for many successful
hits ;does it mean that Rafi's voice is supreme and cannot be dumped
for any reasons whatsoever ??
There have been umpteen no.of songs where Rafi has tended to go
'besura' - how are you and other faithful supporters of Rafi going to
account for it?? And it is YOU and YOU only who will have to explore
and find out , if my statement is a myth or true??. If you fail to
find out...it means your research is LIMITED and lacks depth...once
again for whatever reasons.
If I were in your shoes and some one would dare blog such a thing, I
would take him / her on for face2face confrontation at MY EXPENSE -
this is called passion !!
Jay
1/x
ek bharateeya
> ek bharateeya wrote:
[...]
>
> > afzal:
>
> > it would have been nice if you were to have cast your spotlight on
> > 'paav chhu lene do' as well (tangentially speaking, were i kishore
> > kumar, i would sing 'jalebi (or zalebi) khaa lene do' at the next rmim
> > meet for sure). isn't 'paav' incorrect in urdu as well?
>
> > - e.b.
>
> It would be correct in Urdu, if used in the sense of
> "one-fourth".
>
> Afzal
afzal:
touche! ;-)
in that case, i guess the heroine's response to 'paav chhoo lene do'
would be 'mai.N hoo.N saaree kee saaree tumhaaree, phir kaahe ko paav
chhuo' ;-)
- e.b.
ek bharateeya
[...]
> Why does this happen.. I keep asking to myself. Was I not a Md.Rafi
> before I started research?
>
> Jay
> 1/x
jay:
after you ask yourself, you should sing - to yourself - 'kyaa se kyaa
ho gayaa, is research ke baad me.n' ;-)
seriously, i suggest you give up your research - and debates - and
listen/enjoy the music that you own. it will help keep global (blood
pressure) warming down.
- e.b.
x/1
UVR
A better approach might be to make like a Punjabi and say -- 'paaji,
paav MAT chhuo!
(And if he knows Punjabi, he might be see TWO puns there.)
-UVR.
ek bharateeya
uvr:
i wouldn't want to jab the punjabi with puns ;-).
- s.b.
Afzal A. Khan
And respond accordingly ??
Afzal
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kya sirf tum hee bharatiya ho? Aur baki ke gair?
Sawal hai, tumhara kitna study hai Rafi ki awaz par? Jab aap TAJMAHAL
ka gaana misal dey rahe ho, ap ka study/shhodh kitna gehra hai, iski
pehchan ho gayee !!
Aap ki umar 35-40 saal ke bhheetar hee hai ? Aap jo bhi ho .
jay
2/x
Mokammel Karim
With due respect to you age and ken:
Following your hypothesis, when you listened to most of rafi's songs,
u were 5-35 years of age. Now what can we infer if we stick to your
hypothesis?
And if you did a research, you should let us know your methodology. If
the methodology is flawed, the research has no value.
With all his limitations, rafi is the most influential (male) playback
singer. following the trend of talent hunt programs, rafi will be
there for a long time.
Mokammel Karim
Pankaj Mullick 1944
Ghulam Haider 1947
Anil Biswas 1954
Khemchand 1947
Naushad 1959
SDB 1946
RDB 1979
Shankar Jaikishan 1962 and 1969 respectively
OPN 1966
C Ramchandra 1958
Salil 1962
Sajjad 1939
Singers at 40:
Lata 1969
Asha 1973
rafi 1964
Kishore 1969
Mukesh 1963
Saigal 1944
Manna 1959
Talat 1964
All the MDs, except SDB (he started around that age and his 'music
directing' style was different) and Sajjad (started at the age of
45) , reached their best before 40. All the singers reached their best
before 40 (though kishore and asha got much popular when they were 40
plus). But only we, the unfortunate listeners, need to be more than 40
to appreciate their creations!!!!!
Jag Chan
856b-9d3...@k41g2000vbt.googlegroups.com:
appreciate their creations!!!!!
It's a well known medically supported fact that human faculties start
diminishing after the age of 35 years.
Chapliln, Feynman, Pauling, Euler, SDB, Jay et al are exceptions rather
than rule.
So don't lose heart and appreciate whatever you want to appreciate to your
hearts content even if you have not reached and cossed the golden line!!!!
Here I must specially draw your attention to another field - where
appreciation is of supreme importance and is much called for - field of
culinery art.
Here,if you are a gourmet, 35/40 rule will not be advisable as otherwise it
may have adverse effect on your health.
Regards.
Jay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Karim bhai:
U r rite in ur own manner. And I can guess very well that u must be
wondering: this man says he was a staunch Rafi man from his
schoolgoing days from Std: VI onwards. We never had a radio but I used
to listen our neighbours Radio for hours together...the voice of
Md.Rafi from Baiju Bawra, Aan; Deedar;Pooja,etc. I used to marvel at
his manly voice. Incidently, my first 78 rpm purchased from shop for
Rs.5/- was the famous duet of JUGNU in around 1962. I used to tavel
far, bunk my college and see films like Dillagi, Sangdil, during
accidental releases merely to find out if Rafi's songs were there.Such
was my love/passion. Gradually I got employed and with my meagre
pocket money, I started buying 78 rpms of my choice. I never knew
anything about Rafi much then. Just kept on a buying spree and hide
them at home in an old tin trunk.
This passion of Rafi got a 'jolt' in my system, when my Dad, who used
to love Nurjahan and even admire Rafi to some extent for his pathos
filled songs one day casually was discussing about VOICES of male/
female singers with some of his colleagues at home. I was
young ,though employed - and was just a listener to the discussions.
My Dad used to emphatically say: whatever one opines, there can just
no other sweet voice on both the lower and higher octaves than that of
M.K.Thyagaraja Bhagwadhar. hed used to rave at his stupendous range
and voice control and used to describe us in detail about the
intricate ragas in MKT's renditions . He also used rave over a couple
of more singers of that period of the 40-50 period, like
T.R.Mahalingam. The latter always used to sing on high pitch and his
voice could be heard distinctly far away. He used take sharp murkees
on the higher octaves, etc.
All this info was confusing for a Rafi fan like me and I then
starte3d listening Radio Ceylon - Tamil service from 4pm to 7pm daily
They had a huge stock of Tamil library just like Hindi section and
everyday used to play old nos like Purane filmon ke geet in Hindi.
This was the TRUTH that sparked in my system of belief - conforming to
the principles that Hindi and Tamil styles do not go hand in hand.
Hindi films used to be slapstick or family oriented or comedy or
historical while Tamil films were mostly devotional or mythological or
historical and here -n- there comedy too. The MDs were extremely
talented unlike the the greats of the Hindi side. Carnatic music was
fused with a filmy touch with orchestral accompaniment exactly like
the Hindi songs of the period prevailing.
You remember, I always used to say in my posts - Despite the fact tht
K.L.Saigal had a vast fan folllowing and whether I like him or not,
nobody would believe me.and accept my views. I knew this very well.
But deep in my system, my conscience used to prompt me: Can KLS sing
like MKT, though they were contemporaries . Has KLS got that melodic
sweetness in his voice as compared to MKT. Both the sides had
innovative MDs- classical oriented. Only the styles differed
appreciably . KLS never had the chance to sing classical songs..except
light classical in Tansen; Street Singer; Zindagi, etc. Display/
prowess of voice control was in his songs was LACKING - but then that
job is of the MD concerned !!
In case of MKT, he had rigourously learnt Carnatic music from his guru
and often he used display guru-bhakti in his performances. There was a
German Sound engineer in AIR Trichy who used to remark: MKTs voice was
most ideally suited for the microphone and that he had a gold mine in
his throat..
My individual views begain to change gradually on the Hindi singing
voices - their individual range and the ability to provide 'shakes' as
and when needed on the lower/higher octaves. NJ is one classic example
who could succesfully accomplish this feat and there are examples.
Surely Lata ability is questionable as compared to Asha's - the
latter,s natya sangeet songs are a testimony of her capability.. Let
me quote an instance here; Tamil musical blockbuster: Uthhama Puthran
('57) had fabulous lilting music by G.Ramanathan. The producers
decided to dub the film in Hindi as SITAMGAR and got the songs
recorded in Madras separately. I think RAAZ was the songwriter in
Hindi and MD:B.N.Bali was asked to assist G.Ramanathan in the Hindi
vocablary. The HMV record bears the MD names: G.Ramanathan-B.N.Bali.
Atleast two songs from this film should speak voluminously of Asha's
repertoire and amazing singing capabilities. P.Leela was an
accomplished Carnatic playback singer for Tamil films and she has
rendered one of the songs inthat style. The same style was adapted by
GR also in the Hindi song...sung by Asha.
OMG ! what a way Asha has rendered ...so magnificently to the
expectations of the MD:
Coming back to Rafi; there is a vast difference in the voice qualities
of MKT and Md.Rafi or even T.R.Mahalingam. Md.rafi could/can only
raise his voice 'straight' in a crescendo...but ends there.Blame the
MD for not accomplishing/imparting/exploiting Rafi's tenor suitably to
create an impact from his voice control. The MDs were totally ignorant
about this technique in the art of composing music. Maybe lacking in
classical music study barring some common ragas. This was not the case
with GR. He was well accomplished in ragaas and had a thorough
knowledge of some 25-30 ragas ...some of them simple while some
intricate.He easily used to weave out tunes after tunes making subtle
raga variations either vocally or through accompaniment. Folk music
was another forte with GR as and when the situation demanded .
Comparitively, the Hindi MDs never exploited the raga based Indian
music to the hilt except a few simple well known ragas here-n-there,
like Darbari Kannada, Bahar, Megh Malhar; Puriya; Pahadi; Piloo. while
GR went as far as Charukesi, Ratipratipriya; Hussaini; Kalyani; Sindhu
Bhairavi; Arabhi ...his personal favorite was ALWAYS - a touch of
Kannada somewhere or the other in his songs..that used to breathe out
the melodic charm of his baton. He was a master in Devotional, dance
type songs of jugalbandi and above all... He used to give the perfect
IMPROVISATION to the Hindi songs as when utilized in Tamil .
One wonderful example : one has to listen to the "Girl's School'
beautiful Lata solo : Tum hee kaho mera mun... sung for a Tamil Film
( I don't know the name of the film) by GR in his own voice-n-music.
He has not made any changes in the original tune of Anil Biswas. He
has only modified the acompaniment mildly..
I have all of them in my 160 GB USB Storage disk in FLAC format by the
GRACE OF GOD.
Rafi is good amongst his Hindi colleague singers - he has his
limitations and is effective in straight type of songs and ghazals ,
if tuned well.....not more than that. Provided the MD is capable of
extracting the best from Rafi's voice !!
Jay
2/x
Aditya
> My individual views begain to change gradually on the Hindi singing
> voices - their individual range and the ability to provide 'shakes' as
> and when needed on the lower/higher octaves. NJ is one classic example
> who could succesfully accomplish this feat and there are examples.
> Surely Lata ability is questionable as compared to Asha's - the
> latter,s natya sangeet songs are a testimony of her capability.. Let
> me quote an instance here; Tamil musical blockbuster: Uthhama Puthran
> ('57) had fabulous lilting music by G.Ramanathan. The producers
> decided to dub the film in Hindi as SITAMGAR and got the songs
> recorded in Madras separately. I think RAAZ was the songwriter in
> Hindi and MD:B.N.Bali was asked to assist G.Ramanathan in the Hindi
> vocablary. The HMV record bears the MD names: G.Ramanathan-B.N.Bali.
> Atleast two songs from this film should speak voluminously of Asha's
> repertoire and amazing singing capabilities. P.Leela was an
> accomplished Carnatic playback singer for Tamil films and she has
> rendered one of the songs inthat style. The same style was adapted by
> GR also in the Hindi song...sung by Asha.
>
> OMG ! what a way Asha has rendered ...so magnificently to the
> expectations of the MD:
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jay, are you referring to Main Bhi Teri Dil Bhi Tera by Asha in
Sitamgar? That is one of my favourite Asha songs.
Aditya
Afzal A. Khan
We are treading on dangerous grounds with statements like :
"The (Tamil film) MDs were extremely talented unlike the
greats of the Hindi side".
The fact of the matter is that most listeners of that era
(and right down to the present period) whose language was
Urdu or Hindi, were unfamiliar with Tamil or Telugu. Some
of them knew about the Hindustani classical idiom, but almost
all were ignorant of the Carnatic tradition. The (Hindi film)
MDs composed their songs {and the singers sang their songs} for
this (North Indian) audience. IMHO, such comparisons are not
quite valid. The "virtues" of the Tamil MDs and Tamil (male)
singers would likely fall on "deaf" ears, as far as the North
Indian audience was concerned.
Hindi film MDs are being accused of confining themselves to
only some raags in their compositions. I don't quite see
why they should have composed songs in very obscure or
lesser-known raags, when their listeners were not likely
to be familiar with them. As it is, one can examine the
various websites dealing with Hindi films' raag-based songs
and I, for one, am simply amazed to see the vast repertoire
displayed by the MDs. Songs in films are required to be
composed keeping in view the situations, storyline etc. One
can understand (and appreciate) Dilip Kumar singing "Madhuban
men Raadhika naache re", because that occurs in a musical
setting. But not every situation is suitable for a raag-based
song. Not every on-screen character (like, say, Dev Anand or
Johnny Walker) can be expected to belt out a Jhinjhoti-based
song.
Although I don't know any Tamil or Telugu, I have been able to
listen to some of their music, and I have had no hesitation
in singing the praises of composers like Ghantasala or singers
like him and R. Saraswati Devi etc. At the same time, I have
no hesitation in stating that I found T.M. Sounderarajan's
voice as very raucous and quite irritating. No offence meant.
A listener's ears need to be attuned to a particular musical
milieu for him to enjoy its music. Most of us (i.e. lovers
of Hindi Film music) have little patience -- I daresay --
with the kind of music we are assailed with, day in and day out,
here in the US.
Any comparison between, say, Bryan Adams or even earlier singers
like Elvis Presley, Engelbert Humperdinck, Jim Reeves, Bing
Crosby etc. with the greats of the Hindi film music like Mohd.
Rafi, Talat Mahmood, Mukesh or Manna Dey etc. would not be
quite valid.
All this, of course, with the standard caveat : IMHO.
Afzal
pdg
> Manna 1959
Manna 1960.
One more to your MD list
Salil Chowdhury turned 40 in 1966.
>
> All the MDs, except SDB (he started around that age and his 'music
> directing' style was different) and Sajjad (started at the age of
> 45) , reached their best before 40.
> All the singers reached their best
> before 40 (though kishore and asha got much popular when they were 40
> plus). But only we, the unfortunate listeners, need to be more than 40
> to appreciate their creations!!!!!
I think Hemant Kumar as an MD gave his best music post 1960, after he
turned 40. Certain types(genres) of songs he sang were better post
1960. It's hard to imagine the mood of 'ya dil ki suno' or 'tum pukar
lo' in a voice like 'aanchal se kyon baandh liya' or 'kitna dukh
bhulaya tumne pyare'
AR
>
> My individual views begain to change gradually on the Hindi singing
> voices - their individual range and the ability to provide 'shakes' as
> and when needed on the lower/higher octaves. NJ is one classic example
> who could succesfully accomplish this feat and there are examples.
> Surely Lata ability is questionable as compared to Asha's - the
> latter,s natya sangeet songs are a testimony of her capability..
And classical songs such as "ja mein tose naahin bolun" from Sautela
Bhai, the raagamalika from Hamdard, the songs from S N Tripathi's Rani
Roopmati and some classical songs she has sung for Adinarayana Rao are
testimony of Lata's capability.
> Let
> me quote an instance here; Tamil musical blockbuster: Uthhama Puthran
> ('57) had fabulous lilting music by G.Ramanathan. The producers
> decided to dub the film in Hindi as SITAMGAR and got the songs
> recorded in Madras separately. I think RAAZ was the songwriter in
> Hindi and MD:B.N.Bali was asked to assist G.Ramanathan in the Hindi
> vocablary. The HMV record bears the MD names: G.Ramanathan-B.N.Bali.
> Atleast two songs from this film should speak voluminously of Asha's
> repertoire and amazing singing capabilities. P.Leela was an
> accomplished Carnatic playback singer for Tamil films and she has
> rendered one of the songs inthat style. The same style was adapted by
> GR also in the Hindi song...sung by Asha.
>
I haven't heard this song. What type of a composition is it? Is it a
Carnatic composition?
sanjeev.r...@gmail.com
Barring subjective definitions of "exploiting" ragas, you are
*kidding*, right? Hindi MDs have not used Charukeshi, Sindhu Bhairavi,
and Kalyani?
And while we're at it, I know of Rafi's Pooriya-based snippet from
Baiju Bawra. Which other Hindi Film numbers do you know based on Raga
Pooriya?
Sanjeev
sanjeev.r...@gmail.com
Kannada, or Kaanada (two different ragas as I'm sure you are aware)?
Sanjeev
Mokammel Karim
For a list of hindi film songs based on puria dhanashri, pls check the
following link:
http://www.chandrakantha.com/raga_raag/film_song_raga/puria_dhanashri.html
Charukeshi:
http://www.chandrakantha.com/raga_raag/film_song_raga/charukesi.html
this website is pretty good:
http://www.chandrakantha.com/raga_raag/film_song_raga.html
AR
I hope he is kidding. I mean if he calls Megh Malhar as a "well known"
raga (from "here-n-there" :-)) and in the same sentence states that
some music director went as *FAR* as Kalyani (Hindustani: Yaman) and
Sindhubhairavi (Hindustani: Bhairavi), then he is most certainly
ignorant if he really isn't kidding. Chances are that the average
student of classical music will be taught Yaman or Bhairavi (or both)
far before being taught Megh Malhar, Darbari Kannada (sic), Bahar and
Puriya.
Also there exist many more raagas in the Carnatic system than in the
Hindustani system (correct me if I am wrong) and hence counting how
many raagas a music director used, doesn't make much sense.
sanjeev.r...@gmail.com
I am talking about Pooriya (which was quoted), not Pooriya Dhanashri.
Sanjeev
Mokammel Karim
I remember the followings (composed by naushad), correct me if I am
wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bEHitOVmj4
sanjeev.r...@gmail.com
Yes, this Pooriya snippet is what I am referring to above.
> http://www.esnips.com/doc/5bd355fe-4828-4f93-beeb-348addbefb19/Yeh-Ka...
This song actually mixes several ragas including Pooriya Kalyaan.
Sanjeev