Rabindra Sangeet
Ek Tanhaa
While Im a big fan of Bengal, its music, dance, art and literature,
however I do find Rabindra Sangeet quite boring. I mean the music.
The poetry as much as I can understand is great. I recently asked a
Bengali friend as to why I dont hear the same poetry set to music by
some one other than Tagore ?
He mentioned that at some point in time Manna De did improvise and
added some of his creativity to Rabindra Sangeet, but "he was
literally chewed up by Tagore himself"
This friend also mentioned that diehard fans who believe in strictly
adhering to Tagore's compositions do not allow any deviations what so
ever. How much of this is true ? Is that the reason why no one dare
use the lyrics of Rabindra Sangeet set to some other music?? After
all Ghalib's poetry has been the basis of a number of music directors
creative endeavours.
Any comments ???
Tanhaa
Ritu
> Dosto,
>
> While Im a big fan of Bengal, its music, dance, art and literature,
> however I do find Rabindra Sangeet quite boring. I mean the music.
I tend to agree with you. I had gone to Rabindra Sangeet with great
enthusiasm mainly because I adore almost all of the Tagore songs that
have been adapted for Hindi flms. But yes, without understanding the
language, purely from the music point of view the songs do get a
little monotonous after a while for me too. On the other hand I find
Nazrul Geeti very engaging. I might have heard as many Nazrul Geetis
as have heard Tagore songs and understand precious little of the
lyrics but I still find the music in those songs very good. Maybe the
light classical base of most of Kazi Nazrul Islam's songs give them a
universality.
>
> This friend also mentioned that diehard fans who believe in strictly
> adhering to Tagore's compositions do not allow any deviations what so
> ever. How much of this is true ? Is that the reason why no one dare
> use the lyrics of Rabindra Sangeet set to some other music?? After
> all Ghalib's poetry has been the basis of a number of music directors
> creative endeavours.
If I am not mistaken Vishwa Bharti held the rights to all Tagore works
and they had a strict hold on the way his works could be interpreted.
I had read a while back that their copyright has now expired. I wonder
if this has lead to any new interpretations of Tagore. How have people
reacted to it?
Ritu
Surma Bhopali
> Dosto,
>
> While Im a big fan of Bengal, its music, dance, art and literature,
> however I do find Rabindra Sangeet quite boring. I mean the music.
>
"chalate chalate yuu.N hii koii" very soothing, others may find it
boring and repititive. Secondly, not all popular native things attract
many non-natives. I have seen people ridiculing the taste of idli and
dhokla which I myself like very much. It is a good thing to appreciate
other cultures by seeing things they do. But it is altogether a
different thing to feel things they feel. May be you are missing
something that native Rabindra Sangeet listeners are able to feel.
> The poetry as much as I can understand is great. I recently asked a
> Bengali friend as to why I dont hear the same poetry set to music by
> some one other than Tagore ?
> He mentioned that at some point in time Manna De did improvise and
> added some of his creativity to Rabindra Sangeet, but "he was
> literally chewed up by Tagore himself"
>
Any idea when this might have happened? Tagore died in 1941.
> This friend also mentioned that diehard fans who believe in strictly
> adhering to Tagore's compositions do not allow any deviations what so
> ever. How much of this is true ?
This is true of the Vishwa Bharati who had copyright on Tagore's works
until recently. I am not sure what is happening after the copyright
expired.
> Is that the reason why no one dare use the lyrics of Rabindra
> Sangeet set to some other music?? After
> all Ghalib's poetry has been the basis of a number of music directors
> creative endeavours.
>
I guess the main difference in Tagore's case is that his poems already
had tunes associated. So who would bother creating tune for a lyrics
that already has been set to tune.
Srinivas Ganti
"Ritu" <rc0...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:8777cccd.0402...@posting.google.com...
> I tend to agree with you. I had gone to Rabindra Sangeet with great
> enthusiasm mainly because I adore almost all of the Tagore songs that
> have been adapted for Hindi flms. But yes, without understanding the
> language, purely from the music point of view the songs do get a
> little monotonous after a while for me too. On the other hand I find
> Nazrul Geeti very engaging. I might have heard as many Nazrul Geetis
> as have heard Tagore songs and understand precious little of the
> lyrics but I still find the music in those songs very good. Maybe the
> light classical base of most of Kazi Nazrul Islam's songs give them a
> universality.
SDB hasn't sung any Rabindro Sangeet but has sung Nazrul Geeti.
Note that Ritu adores SDB's voice :)
sg.
Animesh Kumar
> I guess the main difference in Tagore's case is that his poems already
> had tunes associated. So who would bother creating tune for a lyrics
> that already has been set to tune.
There are many tunes, say for thumak chalat raamchandra or shrii
raamchandra krripaalu bhajaman.
Making a new tune of a historical poem is a wonderful job on the part of
the composer.
Some Gazals also enjoy different tunes, e.g., "bas ke dushwaar hai"
(talat, rafi, begum akhtar), "na kisi ki aankh ka nuur huun", etc
Best regards
Animesh
Tadatmya Vaishnav
"Surma Bhopali" <nanhaf...@yahoo.co.in> wrote in message
news:622ae881.0402...@posting.google.com...
> had tunes associated. So who would bother creating tune for a lyrics
> that already has been set to tune.
In the 'Rasikeshu' series of radio programmes (clips downloadable
from http://anilbiswas.com), in the episode on Pankaj Mullick, Anil Biswas
says that Tagore had written around 2500-3000 songs and composed tunes for
all but two (did he really mean that?) And of those two, one was composed by
Pankaj-babu.
Regards,
Tadatmya.
Ek Tanhaa
Surma ji,
Thanks for your comments. My mistake , it was not Manna De, but Pankaj
Mallik who modified Tagore's songs and was rebuked by the master himself.
The story goes as follows:
1. Pankaj Mallik simplified some tune so that it was easier to sing.
To this Tagore remarked " Pankaj, Tumi amaar gaane steamroll Chaliyo na"
2. Pankaj Mallik added some taans to one of Tagore's songs
To this Tagore remarked "Pankaj, Amar gaane tumi Kolom chaliyo na"
However Im told tht Tagore was very fond of Pankaj Mallik.
Tanhaa
Ek Tanhaa
Hi Ritu ji
Thanks for your comments. I am like you, I like the music of Nazrul
Geeti much more than Rabindra Sangeet. Also, with my basic knowledge
of street Bangali I seem to understand the text Nazrul Islam's poetry
much more than Tagore's. My Bengali friend says that this is because
Tagore wrote for the educated few and Nazrul Islam wrote for the
masses. I suppose that is similar Ghalib writing for the educated few
and Meer Taqi Meer writing for the masses. However for me they are all
great poets and cannot be compared in any way.
Tanhaa
naniwadekar
"Ek Tanhaa" <Tanh...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> 1. Pankaj Mallik simplified some tune so that it was easier to sing.
> To this Tagore remarked " Pankaj, Tumi amaar gaane steamroll
> Chaliyo na"
>
Isn't it established that some of Tagore's 'work' as composer
amounted to plagiarism ?
Is the other side of the common established fairly credibly, viz.
that he really did compose some/many/most of the songs
whose tune is attributed to him? Or is it like Naushad's claim
of having penned some songs composed by him whose credit
he 'magnanimously' let go to Shakeel? I don't have any specific
reason to doubt that Tagore could compose music. But the
Tagore mafia has been very smart at having its way for almost
100 years now and I am generally skeptical of any claim
emerging from the mafia. An independent confirmation that
Tagore did set to tune some of his poetry would be welcome
for my fearlessly paranoid mind.
Finally, just how many songs' tunes are attributed to Tagore?
I doubt whether Anil Biswas meant that Tagore wrote 2,500
songs and set tunes to the whole lot. He may have written
2,500 songs but set just a subset of them to tune.
Apart from the two Tagore songs composed by Pankaj
Mullick, has anybody else tried composing, the sub-categories
being : wanted to compose but was discouraged / did compose
and even release / composed but was forced to withdraw
his tunes for various reasons?
- dn
Sambit Basu
news:2face59a.04020...@posting.google.com...
> 1. Pankaj Mallik simplified some tune so that it was easier to sing.
> To this Tagore remarked " Pankaj, Tumi amaar gaane steamroll Chaliyo
na"
>
> 2. Pankaj Mallik added some taans to one of Tagore's songs
> To this Tagore remarked "Pankaj, Amar gaane tumi Kolom chaliyo na"
I think you have messed up different stories to come up
with these two. The most famous PM tune for RS is
"Diner Sheshe Ghumer Deshe" and that got RT's blessings.
PM did a few more too. Read PM's "Amaar Jug, Amaar Gaan".
One statistics says, RT wrote 2232 songs of which there
are scores for 1890. Officially, all those were composed
by RT. There might be a few more, lost in time. (1890
does not include any songs set to tune by somebody else).
Now if you think of it, almost 2000 compositions - all
cannot be of the same standard. IMO, some are excellent,
some good. Rest are mediocre. Almost none that I have
heard is utter crap.
Another statistics I read somewhere says that only about
200-300 RS's are in regular circulation. You can hear
300-400 more once-in-a-long-while. But the rest are never
heard these days. And all these are sung (these days) by
mediocre singers with almost assembly-line training.
Add to that the RS mafias - who try to dictate even the
pausing, breathing for each song's rendition. No wonder,
RS fails to impress a lot of folks.
However, RT is one of best composers India has ever produced.
- Sambit
ps. I do have some old, rare and some not-so-old RS
recordings which can prove my point. I will share
with anybody in exchange of a meal of authentic
Biriyani and Kabab. :)
UVR
>
> An independent confirmation that
> Tagore did set to tune some of his poetry would be welcome
> for my fearlessly paranoid mind.
"Fearlessly paranoid", eh? Sorry to go off-topic, but what
an excellent phrase your oxymoronic mind has conjured up.
-UVR.
PS: And that was an example of a transferred epithet.
Ek Tanhaa
Hi Sambit da,
Good, bad, mediocre are individual emotions. That is the beauty of
art. It invokes different feeling in different people. My intention
was not to judge the great master's work, but to wonder why other
great composers did not give Tagore' poetry the gift of their talent.
I think I have some mixed conclusions which are:
1. Copyright considerations. (Which I have to understand a bit better)
2. Fear of the RS mafia.
3. Self doubt probably, whether they can better the great Ustad.
4. Fear of ridicule from the listening public for attempting to
improve on
the Ustaads work.
Now that the copyrights have expired, I hope it encourages the brave
composers.
Thanks to all for your comments
Tanhaa
Surma Bhopali
>
> Hi Sambit da,
>
> Good, bad, mediocre are individual emotions. That is the beauty of
> art. It invokes different feeling in different people. My intention
> was not to judge the great master's work, but to wonder why other
> great composers did not give Tagore' poetry the gift of their talent.
> I think I have some mixed conclusions which are:
>
> 1. Copyright considerations. (Which I have to understand a bit better)
> 2. Fear of the RS mafia.
> 3. Self doubt probably, whether they can better the great Ustad.
> 4. Fear of ridicule from the listening public for attempting to
> improve on the Ustaads work.
I think all the factors you mentioned above were prevalent. But they
were responsible for dictating terms to singers on how they sing a
Tagore song. I don't think any composer ever thought of(or would ever
think of) re-tuning already popular songs in bulk. Adding interludes
does not mean "composing a song" I presume. "vande maataram" was a
piece of poetry, so many composers tried to make a song of it, but
"jana gana mana" was a song since it came to limelight, so who would
worry about setting it to tune. It will be like having a different
tune for "om jaya jagadish hare, bhakta jano ke sa.nkaTa...".
> Now that the copyrights have expired, I hope it encourages the brave
> composers.
>
You said it and looks like it has already kicked off. I was browsing
"saaanandaa", a Bengali magazine, at a friend's place yesterday and
found a related article. Nachiketa won gold disc for an album that
contains 9 Tagore songs. Nachiketa is renowned as an unorthodox
Bengali modern singer, one of the pioneers of the so-called
"jiivanmukhii songs" revolution in Bengal. From whatever I could
gather from the article, even Nachiketa didn't change the original
tunes, he just imparted his "apun-kaa-isTaa_il" to the songs. That
itself is a big revolution as compared to Rabindra Sangeet's
"Vishwa-Bharti-control" days. But still I think Tagore songs cannot
and will not be "re-composed".
Samik
influenced by various sources (who wasn't ?). These sources
were mainly Indian classical, Bengali folk, or even Western.
A popular example from the latest category is 'Purano sei
diner kotha', inspired by 'Auld lang sine'. There is actually
a 4-cassette Album commercially available, containing
all such songs. If anybody is interested, I can post the
English songs that inspired Rabindrasangeet.
Anil Biswas's statement that Tagore composed all but
two of his songs is entirely wrong. A vast no of those songs
were composed by his grand nephew Dinendranath Tagore.Of
course, the two would sit together and compose/write down
the songs. That is why many people give Dinendranath only
the credit for 'preserving' the songs/ 'writing down the
notation' etc...but thats unfair.
As for Mr. Nani Wadekar's question about other people
composing/attempting to compose Rabindransangeet, all I
know of is 3/4 songs composed by Hemant Kumar which I
have in my collection.He set to tune
some very popular poems of Rabindranath. Unlike Pankaj
Mallick's case (Diner sheshe...), I dont think he had
the direct approval of Tagore. I can post the names of those
songs too, if Nani is interested.
regards,
Samik
anil11...@yahoo.com
When does a copyright expire ?
Does it mean all the songs available on indianscreen.com have
no copyrights ?
Can you kindly clarify Tanha Ji .
Regards ,
Anil
Prithviraj Dasgupta
> "vande maataram" was a
> piece of poetry, so many composers tried to make a song of it,
Wrong. 'vande mataram'-s tune was composed by Bankimchandra
Chatterjee himself and it was a song right from its appearance.
This tune is quite rare to come by these days and the most
common ones these days are the ones composed by Rabindranath
(the tune that comes on DD) and Hemant Kumar (the tune in the
Hindi movie Anandmath). AFAIK, Bankimchandra's tune is the one
on the 78 rpm record N-14421 and is sung by Dilip Kr. Roy and
M. S. Subbulakshmi.
-Prithviraj
naniwadekar
"Prithviraj Dasgupta" <prith...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> 'vande mataram'-s tune ...
> common ones these days are the ones composed by Rabindranath
> (the tune that comes on DD) and Hemant Kumar (the tune in the
> Hindi movie Anandmath).
>
Which is the tune which comes on DD? Do you have it
as mp3? The most famous tune of VM (Vande Mataram)
is perhaps the one played by AIR every morning.
http://www.sawf.org/audio/des/vandemataram_des.ram
The identity of this tune's composer, based on Raag Des, is
proving a big, almost unsolvable mystery.
I have started a couple of threads on VM in the
past. A friend of mine, Milind Sabnis, has written a book on
Vande Mataram. It is available in Hindi, Marathi and English.
He couldn't find out who composed AIR's tune for VM.
The matter has been discussed many times on rmim/c before.
- dn
Ashok
>
>Tagore did 'plagiarise', to the extent that he was
> influenced by various sources (who wasn't ?). These sources
> were mainly Indian classical, Bengali folk, or even Western.
> A popular example from the latest category is 'Purano sei
> diner kotha', inspired by 'Auld lang sine'. There is actually
> a 4-cassette Album commercially available, containing
> all such songs. If anybody is interested, I can post the
> English songs that inspired Rabindrasangeet.
Please do.
> As for Mr. Nani Wadekar's question about other people
> composing/attempting to compose Rabindransangeet, all I
> know of is 3/4 songs composed by Hemant Kumar which I
> have in my collection.He set to tune
> some very popular poems of Rabindranath. Unlike Pankaj
> Mallick's case (Diner sheshe...), I dont think he had
> the direct approval of Tagore. I can post the names of those
> songs too, if Nani is interested.
> regards,
> Samik
Irregardless of Nani's interest, please do.
Ashok
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
> Irregardless of Nani's interest, please do.
>
Ashok,
Nani's interest aside, what does "irregardless" mean? :-)
Sanjeev
naniwadekar
"Sanjeev Ramabhadran" <sanj...@aol.com> wrote -
> >
> > Irregardless of Nani's interest, please do.
> >
>
> Ashok,
>
> Nani's interest aside, what does "irregardless" mean? :-)
>
It's an Americanism though I don't wanna know nuthin'bout't
neither.
From www.m-w.com :
---------
Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th
century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of
usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark
about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It
is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to
time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is
still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
----------
Irregardless of the Dictionary's imprimatur, I do wince
whenever I read the word.
- dn
Samik
> > As for Mr. Nani Wadekar's question about other people
> > composing/attempting to compose Rabindransangeet, all I
> > know of is 3/4 songs composed by Hemant Kumar which I
> > have in my collection.He set to tune
> > some very popular poems of Rabindranath. Unlike Pankaj
> > Mallick's case (Diner sheshe...), I dont think he had
> > the direct approval of Tagore. I can post the names of those
> > songs too, if Nani is interested.
> > regards,
> > Samik
>
> Irregardless of Nani's interest, please do.
>
> Ashok
ok, the songs are
i) Gagan nahile tomare dharibe keba
ii) Shukatarakar pratham pradeep hate
iii) Badal belai grihakone
iv) Purna hoechhe bichhed jabe
All these songs are composed, and sung by Hemant Kumar. I got this
CD last year from New York. I have never seen it in Calcutta, but then
I haven't been there very much recently. I suspect that they had to
withhold the release of these songs untill the expiry of those
copyright laws, a couple of years back.
I will post the details of the other cassette (Tagore's plagiarised
songs) very soon.
Samik
Surjit Singh
> "Sanjeev Ramabhadran" <sanj...@aol.com> wrote -
>
>>>Irregardless of Nani's interest, please do.
>>>
>>
>>Ashok,
>>
>>Nani's interest aside, what does "irregardless" mean? :-)
>>
>
>
> It's an Americanism though I don't wanna know nuthin'bout't
> neither.
Another annoying americanism: I couldn't care less!
>
> - dn
>
>
>
UVR
>
> Another annoying americanism: I couldn't care less!
Are you suggesting that it should be "I *could* care less"?
-UVR.
Surjit Singh
Yes. People seem to use it to mean opposite of what they really mean,
just like double negatives.
>
> -UVR.
Ek Tanhaa
-------------------------------------
Anil bhai,
Im not an expert on trademarks copyrights and patents. These vary
from country to country. Of course anything goes in India, so it is
even harder to understand the rules over there. But in the USA my
understanding is as follows:
1. Patents are granted to inventions and have a statuatory limited
life span. AFter whiich they expire automaticaly. Im not sure of the
time period. e.g. polaroid camera technology and patented drugs etc.
2. Copyrights are rights to intellectual property that never expire,
but have to be enforced and insisted upon by the holders.
Consequently vigilence, litigation and advertising are principal means
of up holding copyrights.
For example, Elvis Presley's songs are still copryrights of his
estate. Similarly, the copyrights to speeches of Dr. Martin Luther
King continue to belong to his widow, because she zealously enforces
them. No one can use even a few sentences of his speeches in any
document without her permission.
Evenn Schools cannnot stage CATS as a school play without getting
permission from the owners.
I believe that a grandson of Mahatma Gandhi has tried to invoke his
ownership of the copyrights to Mahtma Gandhi's works. I dont know to
what extent has he been successful.
I would appreciate if some one could shed more light on copyright
matters, especially when it comes to singing songs orignally sung by
others, modifying the tunes, the words etc. I know that there are a
lot of cassette tapes available of Lata's and Rafi's songs sung by
lesser known singers. There is a rule, " Article XX" in India under
which these tapes can be sold commercially. I have a few such tapes.
I'll give the value of " XX " after I have located them , in a few
days.
Your comments are welcome.
Tanhaa
Sambit Basu
<snip>
> A vast no of those songs
> were composed by his grand nephew Dinendranath Tagore.Of
> course, the two would sit together and compose/write down
> the songs. That is why many people give Dinendranath only
> the credit for 'preserving' the songs/ 'writing down the
> notation' etc...but thats unfair.
Huh!!! What's your source of this incredulous claim
that you are passing as a fact "A vast no of those
songs were composed by his grand nephew Dinendranath
Tagore"?
On a related note on plagiarism, rather on reverse
plagiarism: Anirban Dasgupta (son and disciple of
Sarodiya Buddhadev Dasgupta) wrote a very good aricle
in Webzine Parabaas titled "Rabindra-Sangeet as a
Resource for Indian Classical Bandishes" (with audio
clips). The article can be found at:
http://parabaas.com/rabindranath/articles/pAnirban1.html
- Sambit
UVR
I see. You will, then, doubtless be surprised to know that
"I *couldn't* care less" is not only correct, it is actually
the original version (and was, for a long time, the only
accepted version). It is "I _could_ care less" which is the
(annoying) Americanism. Of course, its use is not restricted
to the US any more.
I do expect you to check with your favorite English expert
on this.
-UVR.
UVR
[Sorry, hit "send" before I could add the following]
What you mean by saying "I couldn't care less" is that you already
care so little that it is not possible for you to care any less
(i.e., you do not care).
-UVR.
Sambit Basu
> >Tagore did 'plagiarise', to the extent that he was
> > influenced by various sources (who wasn't ?). These sources
> > were mainly Indian classical, Bengali folk, or even Western.
> > A popular example from the latest category is 'Purano sei
> > diner kotha', inspired by 'Auld lang sine'. There is actually
> > a 4-cassette Album commercially available, containing
> > all such songs. If anybody is interested, I can post the
> > English songs that inspired Rabindrasangeet.
>
> Please do.
For folks who can read Bangla, there is a definitive
resource for inspired RS songs. It is called
"Rabindrasangeeter Tribeni-Sangam". It was written by
RT's niece Indira Devi Chaudhurani who had the priviledge
of watching from very close quarters and and discussing
with the creator RT's creative process . This book lists
RS's inspired by: (1) North Indian and South Indian
classical bandishes, (2) Bangla folk and (3) Western
songs.
Category (1) is quite comprehensive. However (2) and (3)
are too short, IMO. (2) lists only 7 songs and (3) lists
12.
- Sambit
Surjit Singh
>
> I see. You will, then, doubtless be surprised to know that
> "I *couldn't* care less" is not only correct, it is actually
> the original version (and was, for a long time, the only
> accepted version). It is "I _could_ care less" which is the
> (annoying) Americanism. Of course, its use is not restricted
> to the US any more.
>
> I do expect you to check with your favorite English expert
> on this.
It is a question of local vs global mimimum.
I couldn't care less. One meaning is that I have reached the global
minimum of care, so I could not absolutely care less.
Or, I have reached one of the local minima. There is a global minimum of
care, but I have neither the energy or the time to go into this further :)
So, to me both could and could not are annoying.
>
> -UVR.
naniwadekar
"Surjit Singh" <surjit...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> So, to me both could and could not are annoying.
>
But in both 'local' and 'global' senses, the phrase is quite
unambiguous and economical with words. The phrase
"I couldn't care less" couldn't be less annoying. I am not
sure what you are trying to argue here.
As an aside, I believe the devastating rant "you cannot be
serious" was a product of McEnroe's imagination. Deplorable
as the maestro's rants were, how many sportspersons have
added new phrases to the language(s) ?
- dn
Surjit Singh
> "Surjit Singh" <surjit...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
>>So, to me both could and could not are annoying.
>>
>
>
> But in both 'local' and 'global' senses, the phrase is quite
> unambiguous and economical with words. The phrase
> "I couldn't care less" couldn't be less annoying. I am not
> sure what you are trying to argue here.
I would rather have the simple: I do not care for this.
naniwadekar
>
But it lacks the extra punch present in : 'I couldn't care less'.
- dn
Prithviraj Dasgupta
>
> ok, the songs are
>
> i) Gagan nahile tomare dharibe keba
> ii) Shukatarakar pratham pradeep hate
> iii) Badal belai grihakone
> iv) Purna hoechhe bichhed jabe
>
> All these songs are composed, and sung by Hemant Kumar. I got this
> CD last year from New York. I have never seen it in Calcutta, but then
> I haven't been there very much recently. I suspect that they had to
> withhold the release of these songs untill the expiry of those
> copyright laws, a couple of years back.
The tape and CD are easily available in Calcutta.
The album's name is Pratham Pradip.
> I will post the details of the other cassette (Tagore's plagiarised
> songs) very soon.
> Samik
Please do not call the Tagore song plagiarized like the
other posters who possibly haven't heard the songs but
are ready to establish Tagore as a plagiarist. I think
'inspired' is a better word. At least you, who has heard
both 'Auld Lang Syne' and its counterpart 'puraano sei
diner kathaa', must appreciate the fact that there is
very little similarity between these two songs.
For those that are intersted to compare the degree
of "plagiarism" by Tagore in these songs, you can check
the following links for the songs:
Auld Lang Syne (in Scottish) at:
http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/auldlang.html
and its inspired Tagore song "Purano Sei Diner Kathaa"
(in Bengali) by Hemant Kumar at:
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/s/?q=purano%20sei&c=0301
Samik can comment more on the degree of "plagiarism" in
other inspired Tagore songs in his 4-pack CS (I think it is
called "Rupantari"). I have heard one more original Scottish
song and there too, the similarity is hardly noticeable.
Also, (this part is esp. for Nani's query) plagiarism occurs
when the source is not acknowledged. In Rabindranath's case, her
niece Indira Devi Chowdhurani has written a book that lists
all the inspired songs of Tagore and their inspiration
sources. AFAIR, it is divided into chapters, one for each type
of music, e.g.: Western, Indian classical, folk, re-used
tunes from Tagore's previous compositions etc. This
indicates that this information must have been maintained
by Rabindranath et al when the Rabindrasangeet's tune was
composed so that it could be cited/published (later). I
think the English version of that book is called "Converging
Streams in Tagorean Music".
-Prithviraj
Samik
>
> <snip>
>
> > A vast no of those songs
> > were composed by his grand nephew Dinendranath Tagore.Of
> > course, the two would sit together and compose/write down
> > the songs. That is why many people give Dinendranath only
> > the credit for 'preserving' the songs/ 'writing down the
> > notation' etc...but thats unfair.
>
> Huh!!! What's your source of this incredulous claim
> that you are passing as a fact "A vast no of those
> songs were composed by his grand nephew Dinendranath
> Tagore"?
I dont think this was ever a secret. Everybody knows that Tagore
would hardly ever compose without having Dinu thakur beside him.
Tagore himself never denied this,
and neither did Shantiniketan insiders like Shantidev,
Shailajaranjan, Kanika
etc. At least thats what I gathered from their writings/interviews
etc.
It would be very helpful if you could post the songs list from Indira
Devi's
book. I haven't read it. I myself will post the songs available in
the casettes I mentioned.
regards
Samik
naniwadekar
"Samik" <sam...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> >
> > Huh!!! What's your source of this incredulous claim
> > that you are passing as a fact "A vast no of those
> > songs were composed by his grand nephew Dinendranath
> > Tagore"?
>
> I dont think this was ever a secret. Everybody knows that Tagore
> would hardly ever compose without having Dinu thakur beside him.
>
Some people whisper that Tagore never showed any ability
AT ALL as composer and probably EVERY song credited
to him was composed by Dinu-babu or some other friend/minion.
They have never given any reasons to support their claim
and you are at liberty to dismiss
the allegations as a malicious campaign against Tagore. But
I am just curious whether you can come up with reasonably
credible arguments or have read about Tagore's gift for
composition from reasonably credible sources to shut up
those who make the allegations.
On a related note, Yeshwantrao Chavan had written some
beautifully prose pieces in the '60s and '70s. But some people
allege (and they are fairly credible sources) that 'Tark-teerth'
Laxman-shastri Joshi did all of Yeshwantrao's writing for him.
So well-connected and vain people can pull off such tricks.
Another favourite whispering campaign is mounted by the
Hindutva brigade. They claim Vivekanand did this and did
that in classical music. He is said to have passed on some
tabla kayda-s to Khaprumama Parvatkar, a giant of percussion
music and taught Allauddin Khan and performed many
other prodigies. No evidence is produced to support the
claims. Allauddin lobby is also very happy about the claim
and thus the fraud keeps growing ever larger to a point
where people start believing it. Muslim brigade's favourite
kite is that Amir Khusro invented Yaman. Some people
say Leon Trotsky invented it during his years in exile. (I was
very suspicious about similar claims on behalf of Golwalkar
Guruji. But Vamanrao Deshpande has confirmed in one of his
books that he had had very useful discussions about classical
music with 'Madhu Golwalkar of RSS'.)
But let us get back to talking about Tagore, please.
- dn
Abhay Phadnis
news:c079uu$13aceq$1...@ID-75735.news.uni-berlin.de...
(snip)
> Guruji. But Vamanrao Deshpande has confirmed in one of his
> books that he had had very useful discussions about classical
> music with 'Madhu Golwalkar of RSS'.)
To the best of my knowledge, Madhu Golwalkar (who may well have belonged to
the RSS - I don't know) and the Madhav Golwalkar who was head of the RSS are
two entirely different people. The former often accompanied Begum Akhtar on
the sarangi and has composed music for some Marathi songs - the one I
remember now is Manik Verma's 'tyaa chitta-choraTyaalaa kaa aapule mhaNuu
mii'.
Warm regards,
Abhay
naniwadekar
"Abhay Phadnis" wrote -
>
> To the best of my knowledge, Madhu Golwalkar (who may well have belonged
to
> the RSS - I don't know) and the Madhav Golwalkar who was head of the RSS
are
> two entirely different people. The former often accompanied Begum Akhtar
on
> the sarangi and has composed music for some Marathi songs - the one I
> remember now is Manik Verma's 'tyaa chitta-choraTyaalaa kaa aapule mhaNuu
> mii'.
>
Sarangiya Madhu Golwalkar, whose most famous compositions
are 'jayostute' (sung by Lata and others) and IIRC 'samaadhii
saadhan, sanjeevan naam' (sung by Sudhir Phadke), was
indeed a different person. But Vamanrao surely won't mention
him as 'Madhu Golwalkar of RSS' and even the time-frame
mentioned by Vamanrao ruled out the Sarangiya Golwalkar,
who I believe was about PuLa-Bhimsen's age (born around
1920). Vamanrao was born in 1907 and Madhav Golwalkar,
the second chief of RSS, was born in 1906/07. I think
Vamanrao's claim can be read in 'Alapini' or its English
translation 'Between Two Tanpuras' and I also thiink
Vamanrao even mentioned Nagpur in connection. Details
are hazy in my memory but Vamanrao did refer to Golwalkar
of RSS only, for sure.
- dn
Tadatmya Vaishnav
> life span. AFter whiich they expire automaticaly. Im not sure of the
> time period. e.g. polaroid camera technology and patented drugs etc.
I think it is about 15-20 years, much shorter than that of a
copyright. Also, this time period usually cannot be extended.
>
> 2. Copyrights are rights to intellectual property that never expire,
> but have to be enforced and insisted upon by the holders.
> Consequently vigilence, litigation and advertising are principal means
> of up holding copyrights.
I believe they do expire, but their time period is typically the
life of the creator of the IP ('intellectual property') plus 20-50 years or
so. Also, you may not be required to file for a copyright (as you file for a
patent), in some countries. Once an intellectual property is put down in
some tangible form (like a draft of a book on paper or saved on diskette),
that work is protected by copyright.
> For example, Elvis Presley's songs are still copryrights of his
> estate. Similarly, the copyrights to speeches of Dr. Martin Luther
> King continue to belong to his widow, because she zealously enforces
> them. No one can use even a few sentences of his speeches in any
> document without her permission.
That may be because the copyright term is not over yet, or it may
have been renewed.
A wealth of information on copyrights (which is what would be applicable
to songs), is available at: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Copyright/
Regards,
Tadatmya.
Samik
> Some people whisper that Tagore never showed any ability
> AT ALL as composer and probably EVERY song credited
> to him was composed by Dinu-babu
That itself proves that they are wrong. Righteous people
never 'whisper' they talk boldly :)
> They have never given any reasons to support their claim
Neither have the people who claim that Shakespeare didnt
write a single thing himself or Einstein never discovered
relativity and so on and so forth....
> But I am just curious whether you can come up with reasonably
> credible arguments or have read about Tagore's gift for
> composition from reasonably credible sources to shut up
> those who make the allegations.
The only 'credible proof' that would satisfy these 'whisperers'
is hidden camera kept under Rabi and Dinu's table :).But I
dont think such technology existed in 20th century Shantiniketan.
( In fact, I am not even sure they used a table !! )
On a more serious note, its impossible to say exactly
how many songs Rabindranath composed and how many Dinu babu
did. And there is in no need.Rabindranath and Dinendranath were
the 'one single soul' as far as music was concerned. Tagore
loved Dinu babu more than most people he ever met in his
life.
> Another favourite whispering campaign is mounted by the
> Hindutva brigade. They claim Vivekanand did this and did
> that in classical music. He is said to have passed on some
> tabla kayda-s to Khaprumama Parvatkar, a giant of percussion
> music and taught Allauddin Khan and performed many
> other prodigies. No evidence is produced to support the
> claims. Allauddin lobby is also very happy about the claim
> and thus the fraud keeps growing ever larger to a point
> where people start believing it. Muslim brigade's favourite
> kite is that Amir Khusro invented Yaman. Some people
> say Leon Trotsky invented it during his years in exile.
Vivekanand did possess a lot talent in music, but
there is no evidence of him teaching Parvatkar/Allauddin etc.
Hindutva Brigade, Muslim Brigade, Trotsky, Stalin...
they are all enemies of music, in my humble opinion :)
Samik
>
>
> - dn
Ashok
>
. (I was
>very suspicious about similar claims on behalf of Golwalkar
>Guruji. But Vamanrao Deshpande has confirmed in one of his
>books that he had had very useful discussions about classical
>music with 'Madhu Golwalkar of RSS'.)
>- dn
Did he specify the content of these "very useful discussions"?
Or is it simply the case of: if a garbage can is your Guruji,
of course anything that comes out of it is "very useful".
Ashok
naniwadekar
"Ashok" <adhar...@iimcal.ac.in> wrote -
>
> Did he specify the content of these "very useful discussions"?
> Or is it simply the case of: if a garbage can is your Guruji,
> of course anything that comes out of it is "very useful".
>
You can do your homework, check Vamanrao's book,
probe the issue further; but since you are only interested
in announcing your stupidity, you are not going to allow
any evidence to come in way of your fantasies. This post
could be treated as another kick on your ass except that
you don't have any left.
- dn
naniwadekar
"Samik" <sam...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> The only 'credible proof' that would satisfy these 'whisperers'
> is hidden camera kept under Rabi and Dinu's table :).But I
> dont think such technology existed in 20th century Shantiniketan.
> ( In fact, I am not even sure they used a table !! )
> On a more serious note, its impossible to say exactly
> how many songs Rabindranath composed and how many Dinu babu
> did. And there is in no need.Rabindranath and Dinendranath were
> the 'one single soul' as far as music was concerned. Tagore
> loved Dinu babu more than most people he ever met in his
> life.
>
> On a more serious note, its impossible to say exactly
> how many songs Rabindranath composed and how many Dinu babu
> did. And there is in no need.Rabindranath and Dinendranath were
> the 'one single soul' as far as music was concerned.
>
I hope you realise that the sloppy argument forwarded by
you above is very common, very easy and lazy to make,
that it badly lacks intellectual rigour, (nay, it announces its
lack) and that it provides ammunition to the whispering
campaign against Tagore. I will grant you
that it doesn't prove their case at all
but when Tagore's side talks such wishy-washy
junk so loudly, the other side doesn't even need to whisper.
They only need to wink; and I blame you more than I blame
them for it.
- dn
anil11...@yahoo.com
Thanks Tanha-Ji and Tadatmya-JI . I was of the understanding that
the rights expire after 50 years . This was my guess on going thru the free
downloads available on indianscreen.com .
Regards ,
Anil
Sambit Basu
> > Huh!!! What's your source of this incredulous claim
> > that you are passing as a fact "A vast no of those
> > songs were composed by his grand nephew Dinendranath
> > Tagore"?
>
> I dont think this was ever a secret. Everybody knows that Tagore
> would hardly ever compose without having Dinu thakur beside him.
> Tagore himself never denied this,
> and neither did Shantiniketan insiders like Shantidev,
> Shailajaranjan, Kanika
> etc. At least thats what I gathered from their writings/interviews
> etc.
Ok, so you do not know anything for sure, cannot provide
any reference to back up and yet trying to pass a
half-cooked rumor as a fact under the guise of "everybody
knows"! I wrongly assumed you are having a serious
discussion. What you are doing is tabloid gossipping.
Dinendranath came much later in RT's composing life -
actually only after Shantiniketan was a full-fledged
school (I have to look up exact period). Dinendranath
took upon himself to transcribe the scores for
preservation. RT and DT used to live in separate houses,
after composing a song RT would travel to DT's to teach him
the song before he himself forgets the tune. There is a wonderful
description of RT going to DT's on a rainy day (and forgetting
to open his umbrella) to teach a newly composed song "aami
kaan pete roi" in Pramathanath Bishi's "Rabindranath O
Shantiniketan". So it is absolutley untrue what you claim:
"Tagore would hardly ever compose without having Dinu thakur
beside him".
Before Dinendranath, it was Jyotirindranath or Sarala Devi or
Indira Devi, who used to do the transcriptions.
- Sambit
Sambit Basu
> Some people whisper that Tagore never showed any ability
> AT ALL as composer and probably EVERY song credited
> to him was composed by Dinu-babu or some other friend/minion.
> They have never given any reasons to support their claim
> and you are at liberty to dismiss
> the allegations as a malicious campaign against Tagore. But
> I am just curious whether you can come up with reasonably
> credible arguments or have read about Tagore's gift for
> composition from reasonably credible sources to shut up
> those who make the allegations.
Do you ever understand that if somebody brings any
allegation of this nature, the onus is on him/her to
prove it and *not* the other way round?
Besides, there is a vast body of writings on RT and his
way of creation. And some of them are extremely well
researched. Probably the most respected biography of
RT is Prashantakumar Pal's "Rabijiboni", which is awaiting
it's 10th volume. There is another well respected biography
by Prabhat Mukhopadhyay.
And there are quite a few well researched writings on RS by
Sudhir Chakraborty.
These are just for the starter.
- Sambit
naniwadekar
"Sambit Basu" <sambi...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> Do you ever understand that if somebody brings any
> allegation of this nature, the onus is on him/her to
> prove it and *not* the other way round?
>
Do you understand that I had asked you for your arguments
after granting it that the onus was not necessarily on you?
- dn
Samik
>
> Ok, so you do not know anything for sure, cannot provide
> any reference to back up and yet trying to pass a
> half-cooked rumor as a fact under the guise of "everybody
> knows"! I wrongly assumed you are having a serious
> discussion. What you are doing is tabloid gossipping.
I would think that 'tabloid gossiping' involves different kind
of
situation and different kind of characters. Not 2 men, both
extremely
qualified and dignified, who loved and respected each other
from the core of their heart, and never had problem about
giving each due credit.
> Dinendranath came much later in RT's composing life -
> actually only after Shantiniketan was a full-fledged
> school (I have to look up exact period). Dinendranath
> took upon himself to transcribe the scores for
> preservation. RT and DT used to live in separate houses,
> after composing a song RT would travel to DT's to teach him
> the song before he himself forgets the tune. There is a wonderful
> description of RT going to DT's on a rainy day (and forgetting
> to open his umbrella) to teach a newly composed song "aami
> kaan pete roi" in Pramathanath Bishi's "Rabindranath O
> Shantiniketan".
I can never claim to match your knowledge, but I read all this. I
also read/heard accounts of Shantiketan insiders about
Dinendranath's
role in composing. Ok, I was wrong to say that Tagore would 'hardly
ever compose'
without Dinu. I apologise. But its true that many of the songs were
composed by Dinu,
albeit with Tagore's approval...even in Tagore's presence. Even going
by common sense,its very irrational to think that when two extremely
gifted musicians sat together
and composed tunes, its always one of them who came up with all the
tunes, and the other would only 'write down to notations' . To support
this irrationality, it is further claimed that when Tagore '
completely forgot his own tune', Dinu, a person with great memory,
would remind people of the tunes. I would
prefer the simpler and more logical conclusion that it was Dinu who
came up with the
tune. True, I cannot cite any 'official reference' saying that
Dinendranath composed such and such songs...because there was never
any official document. The Tagore family considered it a 'family
affair' and
never thought there would be any issues about it. Shantineketan was
so much a 'one man show', so much under the shadow of Tagore, that
others, especially ppl like Dinu, never felt any need to
assert their own identity. I know that 'transcribing
the scores for preservation' is all Dinendranath is given credit
for, but thats
being unfair to him.
I am the biggest admirer of Tagore, but I dont see why that
should prohibit me from
giving credit to another wonderful person who deserved it so much.
Thats a very bad form of hero worshipping.
Anyway, there is probably not much point in arguing about
this. I didnt
want to challenge you or enter into a debate...I just put forward my
humble opinion.
samik
Ashok
>Im not an expert on trademarks copyrights and patents. These vary
>from country to country. Of course anything goes in India, so it is
>even harder to understand the rules over there.
Is it necessary to write such stuff? If it is the case that
"anything goes in India", there is nothing more to say!
>2. Copyrights are rights to intellectual property that never expire,
"Patently" Wrong! And inexcusably so--rights in perpetuity?
In the U.S. it is 75 years after the death of the creator.
In India it used to be 50 years. To accommodate Vishwabharati,
parliament changed it to 60 years in the early 90s. Now that
the 60-year period has also passed, Tagore's intellectual property
is open for any commercial use you might put it to.
For films, it is 60 years after the release of the film. So, all
Indian films released before 1944 are open for commercial use.
In particular, you can commercially release the soundtrack of
any of those films.
NB: The requisite number of years is counted from the Dec. 31 for
these purposes, regardless of the day of the year the creator died,
or the film was released.
>For example, Elvis Presley's songs are still copryrights of his
>estate. Similarly, the copyrights to speeches of Dr. Martin Luther
>King continue to belong to his widow, because she zealously enforces
>them. No one can use even a few sentences of his speeches in any
>document without her permission.
Wrong. But this time around, excusably so. Publishers have spread
lots of misinformation about the scope of copyright--to the extent
that even library staff in the U.S. universities are often ignorant
of the details. Read up on the provisions for "fair use".
http://www.usg.edu/admin/legal/copyright/
http://www.ala.org/ala/washoff/WOissues/copyrightb/copyrightarticle/usersrightscopyright.htm
>Tanhaa
Sambit Basu
> I can never claim to match your knowledge, but I read all this. I
> also read/heard accounts of Shantiketan insiders about
> Dinendranath's
> role in composing. Ok, I was wrong to say that Tagore would 'hardly
> ever compose'
> without Dinu. I apologise. But its true that many of the songs were
> composed by Dinu,
> albeit with Tagore's approval...even in Tagore's presence.
Here you go again, shoving in a rumor as truth!!
Even going
> by common sense,its very irrational to think that when two extremely
> gifted musicians sat together
> and composed tunes, its always one of them who came up with all the
> tunes, and the other would only 'write down to notations' . To support
> this irrationality, it is further claimed that when Tagore '
> completely forgot his own tune', Dinu, a person with great memory,
> would remind people of the tunes. I would
> prefer the simpler and more logical conclusion that it was Dinu who
> came up with the
> tune.
Ok, now I get it. This is your *conjecture* - which is fair
enough as long as you don't call it a truth. Unfotunaltely,
Indian music do not have a tradition of musical scholarship
of studying and analyzing composers.
In Western classical scenario, if an old composition is
suddenly unearthed, a Mozart scholar can tell with a good
degree of certainty whether the composition is Mozart's.
Everybody probably knows this.
Had we have a similar faculty, RT scholars could possibly
look at the compositions to identify which are actually RT's
and which are actually DT's.
I would love to see this kind of descipline in our music.
> I am the biggest admirer of Tagore, but I dont see why that
> should prohibit me from
> giving credit to another wonderful person who deserved it so much.
Doesn't matter whether you admire RT or not. Until and unless you
can provide enough reason and justification for saying what
you are saying, you are basically rumoring and hand waving.
> Thats a very bad form of hero worshipping.
> Anyway, there is probably not much point in arguing about
> this. I didnt
> want to challenge you or enter into a debate...I just put forward my
> humble opinion.
Good. Then let's call opinion opinions instead of truth.
(My last mail in this thread)
- Sambit
Sambit Basu
> > Do you ever understand that if somebody brings any
> > allegation of this nature, the onus is on him/her to
> > prove it and *not* the other way round?
> >
>
>
> Do you understand that I had asked you for your arguments
> after granting it that the onus was not necessarily on you?
Do you understand the bottomless depth of your stupidity
before asking such inane questions?
One cannot prove what one hasn't done! Nobody can prove,
X hasn't stolen money. Any lack of prove that X did, will
be considered enough.
You can never prove Anil Biswas never plagiarised. That
will be an accepted fact. (That is, till somebody points
out that "Rahi Matwali" is a direct lift from RS.)
- Sambit
naniwadekar
> enough as long as you don't call it a truth. Unfotunaltely,
> Indian music do not have a tradition of musical scholarship
> of studying and analyzing composers.
>
Quick recap : Indian music does not, according to Sambit Basu,
have a tradition of musical scholarship. His opinion gives rise
to an interesting possibility : Rabindranath may have tried
to take disadvantage of lack of scholarship in India and
claimed to have composed tunes for hundreds of songs
without composing even a single one of them.
>
> Good. Then let's call opinion opinions instead of truth.
>
My opinion, presented as opinion : Sambit Basu is a fool.
Truth, as revealed by this thread : Sambit Basu is a fool.
An opinion, now backed up by evidence : Sambit Basu is a fool.
>
> (My last mail in this thread)
>
Good. It is always a good policy for fools to keep shut.
- dn
kcp
> Apart from the two Tagore songs composed by Pankaj
> Mullick, has anybody else tried composing, the sub-categories
> being : wanted to compose but was discouraged / did compose
> and even release / composed but was forced to withdraw
> his tunes for various reasons?
>
>
> - dn
Satyajit Rays song/s from Charulata & Ghare Baire - can they fall in
this category ?
Ami Chini Go Chini - the music was distinctly different than the one
composed by Hemant Kumar in 1986 album ( both versions of Satyajit Ray
and Hemant Kumar were sung by Kishore Kumar )
Ghare Baire song/s had no music at all !! ( again Kishore !! ) :D
KCP
Sambit Basu
< ... >
> - dn
Ok, let me try again:
1. How old are you?
2. Do you understand the bottomless depth of your stupidity
before posting your moronic blabber on newsgroups?
3. Since all that you are interested in is flaming, you
blabbermouth, this message will be crossposted to alt.flame.
- Sambit
Samik
> Please do not call the Tagore song plagiarized like the
> other posters who possibly haven't heard the songs but
> are ready to establish Tagore as a plagiarist. I think
> 'inspired' is a better word. At least you, who has heard
> both 'Auld Lang Syne' and its counterpart 'puraano sei
> diner kathaa', must appreciate the fact that there is
> very little similarity between these two songs.
IMHO, it as 'pagiarised' or 'inspired' as is
Shankar-Jaikishan's 'ghar aya mere pardesi' from that Egyptian
chant, or Anil B's 'Jeevan hai madhuban' from 'Que sera sera'.
There is no need to be overtly critical, or sensitive,
about any of these cases, because I dont see anything wrong
with being 'inspired'..even Beethoven and Mozart borrowed
from other sources. Anyway, perhaps 'inspired' is a better
word, or 'transcreation', just to differentiate these people
from Bappida, Anu Malik etc.
Anyway, that 4-cassette set I was talking about is called
'Rupantari'
Rabindranath-er bhanga gaan
STHVS 24373
Its definitely worth buying, even for a non-Bengali speaker
at least because of the fact that the 1st 2 cassettes contain some delightful
classical/semi classical renditions by Ravi Kichlu, Vijay
Kichlu, Nihar Ranjan Bannerjee, Dev Shankar Dwivedi, Sandhya
Mukkherjee, Arun Bhaduri etc, and their Bengali (RS)
counterparts by Subinoy Ray, Suchitra Mitra etc. The third
volume deals with Bengali folk sources, and the 4th one
with Western inspiration. As per Ashokji's request, I will
list down the Western songs that inspired RS (the list
contains your Scottish song, and some of the songs
are pretty well known IMO).
i) Auld Lang sine
RS: Purano sei diner katha (Hemanta)
ii) Go where glory waits thee: Aloka Chakravarty
RS: Aha Aji e basanta (Arghya Sen)
and
Mori o kahar bachha (chorus)
iii)The vicar of bray: James Stevens
RS: O dekhbi re bhai (Kaushiki Chakravarty)
iv) Nancy Lee
RS: Kali kali balo re
v) Drink to me only: Aloka Chakravarty
RS: Katabar bhebechhinu (Sagar Sen)
vi) Ya banks and braes: Aloka Chakravarty
RS: Phoole phoole dhale dhale :Kanika Bannerjee
vii) The British grenadiers
RS: Tui ai re kachhe (Snigdhadev Sengupta)
viii) Robin Adair: Aloka Chakravarty
RS: Sakali phuralo swapanprai (Srinanda Mukherjee)
regards
Samik
Ket...@att.net
A quick question: Is there a reason why a lot(I haven't heard all or even most)
of Tagore's songs/compositions are set to the same pace and melancholy tune?
Since I don't know Bengali and hence can't understand lyrics, are the songs
written about some specific events/moods in a person's life?
Ketan
Prithviraj Dasgupta
> prith...@yahoo.com (Prithviraj Dasgupta) wrote:
>
(Referring to Rabindranath's composition):
> IMHO, it as 'pagiarised' or 'inspired' as is
> Shankar-Jaikishan's 'ghar aya mere pardesi' from that Egyptian
> chant, or Anil B's 'Jeevan hai madhuban' from 'Que sera sera'.
If there was no inspiration from other sources(not just in music)
there would be no scientific/social/cultural research. If you
ever see a published research paper or book, check out
its end - you will see a list of papers or books
written by other people. These are called references
or citations. If these are not there in the paper,
and the author has still used results from these (others')
work, the author's work amounts to plagiarism.
The HFM MD-s you mentioned did not bother to document the sources
of their inspirations. Rabindranath did record (and document) the
sources of his inspirations. That is why Rabindranath's work
_cannot_ be called plagiarism.
Also, between 'jeevan hai madhuban' and 'que sara
sara' there is no similarity. Very bad example of
plagiarism.
What is the name of the Egyptian chant you referred to
that inspired SJ's "ghar aaya"? Where(which album) is
it available?
(rest snipped)
-Prithviraj
Sumantra Dutta Roy
> What is the name of the Egyptian chant you referred to
> that inspired SJ's "ghar aaya"? Where(which album) is
> it available?
Dear Dr. Dasgupta, a clip is on Dr. Parrikar's wonderful site:
<ahref="http://www.sawf.org/audio/bhairavi/ummkhalthoum.ram>http://www.sawf.org/audio/bhairavi/ummkhalthoum.ram</a>
With warm regards,
Sumantra.
Ek Tanhaa
Sumantra Bhai,
After listening to that Egyption clip, I can only say that "Ghar aaya
pardesi" is not inspired at all. Its "outright stealing" My fellow
Indians have now decended even further in my contempt.
Can some one tell me which came first? the "Egyptian chant" or
"Ghar aaya"
Indian movies are very popular in the Middle East and the chant may be
the inspired version!! Pleae tell me that, that is true !!!!
Tanhaa
Arunabha S Roy
> Also, between 'jeevan hai madhuban' and 'que sara
> sara' there is no similarity. Very bad example of
> plagiarism.
Prithviraj,
"there is no similarity" is a bit of a stretch. The tune
for the mukha.Daa is identical; only the pacing of phrases and the tempo
have been altered, and the melody is tweaked only very slightly. Talat
has himself talked of this song as the basis for "jiivan hai madhuban",
with words to the effect "See how Anil Biswas took an existing western
tune and completely Indianized it"
As for what constitutes plagiarism exactly, and whether
this is a candidate, that is a different issue. But in this case, "que
sera sera" is indeed the foundation for the Jasoos song.
- Arunabha
P.S. My favorite example of ascribed plagiarism was when someone on a
yahoo groups forum drew a parallel between the Jawani Diwani song
"jaan-e-jaa.N Dhuu.N.Dhataa phir rahaa" and "ai, niile gagan ke tale".
According to this soul, the single note ("ai") that began the latter
song was plagiarized and mounted on to "jaa.." in the RDB song.
Prithviraj Dasgupta
Thanks for pointing the clip and making me realize a
thing that I frequently forget, viz., "I should spend
time listening to music instead of posting/arguing on
RMIM to convince incorrigible posters"; after I discovered
that I have this Um Koulsoum CD with me for the past 2
years but never played it.
-Prithviraj