The complete guide to Hindi film music

[Param]

Hello fellow music buffs,

We're launching MySwar (http://www.myswar.com) in a few weeks. Think
of it as the digitized Geet Kosh on steroids. Please do sign-up and
spread the word.

Find out more about what you can expect from my company blog (http://
www.mavrix.in/about/about-mavrix/).

Thanks,
Param

[Balaji Murthy]

"Digitized Geet Kosh on steroids" is indeed a mightly claim. Can you
provide a brief introduction to your tool before I visit your website?

Thanks,

- Balaji

[surjit singh]

It's a joke.

[Param]

Hi Balaji,

Understand your skepticism. :-)

At the core, it's a database of Hindi film music (and I'm aware that a
few of them have been attempted). Here are a few things additional
things you can expect:
1. It's current, i,e runs up to present day Hindi film songs
2. We've listened to every song in the last 4 decades and tagged each
song with up to 3 Genres. Also a bunch of other attributes. The Genre
information is displayed, the other attributes are not.
3. Songs like this - For every song, a list of similar songs based on
above mentioned attributes
4. Personalized recommendation - If you rate a song, we'll tell you
what else you may like
3. Extensive credits - This is mainly applicable to films from the
last decade or so and includes information like, assistants, recording
engineers, studio, instrumentalists, etc. Essentially any person/group
officially credited on the album.
4. Trivia - While we're seeding some album and song trivia at launch,
we're hoping that other music buffs like us will also contribute.
We'll verify contributions before publishing.
5. Reviews - User and external
6. Awards - Seeded with National and Filmfare awards. Users can
contribute additional award info.
6. Artist bios - Concise summaries with focus on insight instead of
information. Links to official FB pages, Twitter handles, websites.

Caveats - a) We're launching with 4 decade 70s through present day.
We'll add the previous decades after launch. b) We tried really hard
but could not get hold of some songs. We have not analyzed these for
Genre etc.

Would love you hear the feedback from this forum.

Thanks,
Param

[Param]

Sir - I've followed your posts on RMIM and respect you but please do
not trivialize this effort without understanding what it's about. Nine
of us (music lovers all) have poured in our hearts and souls into this
effort over the last 9 months. At least give it a look before voicing
your opinion. We're accepting sign-ups now and the invites to the beta
will come in 3-4 weeks.

[Rosie Anand]

Sorry, have no interest in post-1965 music. Stop insulting Har
Mandir's work by comparing it to Geet Kosh.

[naniwadekar]

"Param" <tap...@gmail.com> wrote :

>
> We're launching MySwar (http://www.myswar.com) in a few weeks. Think
> of it as the digitized Geet Kosh on steroids. Please do sign-up and
> spread the word.
>

taParam: If your group has actually spent time listening, that too keenly,
to all the recent (last 20-30 years) film songs, it means you are a bunch of
idiots who spend time on such junk music, who lie brazenly that they have
heard all those songs because it is not possible to cover so many songs, you
have zero life and sub-zero intelligence, and all of the above twice over.
The music you have covered is 'music on steroids', so you are honest to a
fault to call it Steroids' Geet Kosh, in addition to being stupidly
boastful.

The main culprit in this thread is Balaji. The still-born baby (parents on
steroids) that is this eeekKosh should have been allowed a quiet burial
with no responses issued to the announcement.

- dn

[Param]

1. The reference to Geet Kosh is not to take away anything from the
work done by Mr. Harmandir Singh. I am a fan as well. I used the Geet
Kosh as a frame of reference since I see it being mentioned so often
in this forum.

2. We have listened to every Hindi film song from 70s to present day.
It's not a lie. 5 of us analyzed approx 30 films a week on an average
starting March-April, '11. You can see the results when we launch.
I've been posting the report of this project here -
http://www.mavrix.in/tag/mavrix-update/

3. I thought this is forum for music lovers. Sad to see so much venom
directed at me from people who I thought would be like-minded.

I shared this information because I sincerely feel people who are like
Hindi film music would be interested in something like this.

Regards,
Param

[Kalyan]

Why is this group so thin-skinned when it comes to the Geet Kosh.
Also, I see no reason
why so many insults and abuses are hurled at someone without even
reviewing the output
of what seems to be a huge effort.

Regards,
Kalyan

[vijay...@my-deja.com]

If all you have done is document every film song from 1980 till date
as diligently as Harmandir Singh has for the Geet Kosh, that is
not only commendable, but also a useful companion to the HFGK.

I shall stop by when you launch your web-site.

The quality of music may be a matter of opinion, but a historian's
role is not ennobled or belittled by the history s/he records.

Vijay

[naniwadekar]

"Param" <tap...@gmail.com> wrote :

>
> 3. I thought this is forum for music lovers. Sad to see so much venom
> directed at me from people who I thought would be like-minded.
>

I have not charged you of taking anything away from Har Mandir Singh.
Announcing 'thing X on steroids' is not my cup of tea but I will grant you
that that is how things are done these days.

I haven't visited your site, and there is little chance that I will ever do
so. I haven't even bought post-1960 GK volumes. If I buy more of the GK
volumes, they will be duplicates-triplicates of pre-1961 years for other
rooms in my home.

I agree with Vijay that if you have really done what you claim, the effort
would be staggering. But I don't agree with the second part of his comment.
What you choose to document says a lot about you. If you compile a record of
which sabzi Sitaram Kesri ate in every meal of his life, the effort would be
very impressive and also more idiotic than impressive.

- dn

[Param]

DN - Documenting information for posterity is not meaningless (and
what we have done is far from a list of Sitaram's subzis!) but let's
leave that topic aside for a minute.

My hypothesis is that for every 2 bad songs that perhaps deserve
obscurity, there is 1 good song that did not get the attention it
deserved. If this exercise is successful in surfacing some of those
hidden gems, then listening to all those bad songs would have been
worth the effort.

This reminds me of a blog post I wrote on this topic as a counterpoint
to one of RMIM member's (don't remember who) comment that "rare songs
should remain rare". http://www.mavrix.in/2011/01/rare-songs-should-remain-rare/

I will post again only when we're launching, so people can see what we
have done and draw their own conclusions. To avoid spamming
disinterested folks, I'll be happy to continue the conversation if you
email me directly.

Regards,
Param

[vrk]

Dear Param

If you are doing this for 70s and above, it will indeed be a seminal work. and much needed too. i find the only classics channel in India - FM gold plays only 1970s and later 70% of the time (thanks to their rd fixation, remember rd was largely nonexistent before that).

and in any case you would be adding the later decades too.

all i would say is congratulations and please get it out soon. I will certainly be a regular visitor (provided it is free :) )

[surjit singh]

First of all whether one should even do this, I say by all means yes. I don't care for this music but it is worth compiling comprehensive info about it.

OK, so let us see if your claims are correct. Let us start with a simple one. In HFGK Vol 5 compiled by Chatterjee, starting on page 630, there are about 70 films for which complete info was not available when that volume was published. Have you done any research at all to find and complete this info? If you have not completed this portion 100%, your claim "We have listened to every Hindi film song from 70s to present day. It's not a lie. 5 of us analyzed approx 30 films a week on an average starting March-April, '11. " is false.

As far as the amount of hard work you have done, let me tell you a real story. There is a software engr in iitk called Shukla. He and about 10 of his friends worked for about 5 years in entering info about silent movies, HFGK and post 1980 (covered 1912-1998). After they finished it they wanted me to publicize it and help them sell it. I asked for a sample. They sent me the whole thing with some basic menus available, so that I could browse and print, but not add, correct or edit. Their table headings had everything imaginable from cameraman to filmfare awards, with room for links to songs, you name it. Unfortunately it was horribly incomplete and full of simple mistakes. I refused to do anything with it. They tried to sell it to me for $20,000 with full source code etc. I politely declined. I have seen too many claims like the above in the last 20 years to take your claim seriously.

BTW for people who need basic song info, earthmusic.net it reasonably good.

[Param]

I promised not to post again but I think it's important I respond to
baseless accusations.

Surjit - You're ignoring the caveat I placed in my post above -

"Caveats - a) We're launching with 4 decade 70s through present day.
We'll add the previous decades after launch. b) We tried really hard
but could not get hold of some songs. We have not analyzed these for
Genre etc."

Again, I can understand skepticism but I am amazed by the extreme
negativity about something that people haven't seen yet.

[Pavan Jha]

Great! Looking forward to it! am sure your effort would speak for it
and wont disappoint a lot of people here!

Pavan

[Pavan Jha]

Param,

I wouldn't blame anyone here for being a skeptic of any new venture
such as myswar.. its in the blood of us.. Here we all want something
concrete done and working, rather than just speaking about it, how
good it would be.. like HFGK is something "Done".. and we have seen
and used it "almost like a Bible", so its very close to our hearts..
There have been many services & news of music database service but
none has been able to do justice and HFGK still is the best source for
us for "almost authentic information".. Most of the sites & services
are carelessly done with many-2 mistakes so none of the online music
service (except ISB and its front ends, as lots of RMIMers have
volunteered to get the data right with a great success) attracts
attention.. Second a database of post 70s songs though is quite
valuable (considering HFGK ends at 1980) but still less interesting
for the lack of quality in the music in that era... Still if you've
put in a lot of efforts and passion, I believe there would be a
different response when the people see it in action, just in case if
it offers a lot of value addition! But if it turns out to be some
thing based on unreliable data/info, get ready for more brickbats than
bouquets!

Looking forward to it!
Pavan

[Afzal A. Khan]

On 10/16/2011 11:30 PM, Param wrote:


> Again, I can understand skepticism but I am amazed by the extreme
> negativity about something that people haven't seen yet.

I am amazed too.


Afzal

[Vijay]

Same here. I can only surmise that the phrase 'hamraz on steroids'
has touched a raw nerve. It oughtn't have done so, not only because
its greatness should not diminish with such comparisons, but also
because, as I feel, Param didn't mean the comparison as an insult to
Geetkosh, but more an homage.

As an aside, I am not particularly interested in post 70s music, but
will certainly look in when the pre-70s info comes about.

Best,

Vijay

[Sunil Dandekar]

I am not. Have seen many newcomers scared away from this forum by the
first resounding welcome they get. No wonder this forum is withering
away in nothingness.

Reminds me of a play of Mahesh Elkunchwar. Wada Chirebandi.

Param, if you are still around, my best wishes to your endeavour. If
it is any consolation, Tu kaun ho tera naam hai kya? Naushad bhi yahan
badnaam hue.

regards,

Sunil


regards,

Sunil

[AR]

On Oct 15, 1:49 am, Rosie Anand <rosie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 8:07 pm, Param <tapa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sir - I've followed your posts on RMIM and respect you but please do
> > not trivialize this effort without understanding what it's about. Nine
> > of us (music lovers all) have poured in our hearts and souls into this
> > effort over the last 9 months. At least give it a look before voicing
> > your opinion. We're accepting sign-ups now and the invites to the beta
> > will come in 3-4 weeks.
>
> Sorry, have no interest in post-1965 music.
>

But I am sure a connoisseur of music would definitely enjoy songs like
"man aanand aanand chhaayo", "suniyo ji araj mhaariyo", "naam gum
jaayega", "seene mein jalan" or "aapki yaad aati rahi raat bhar", even
though these have been composed after 1965. Archiving information
about such songs is important, even if it saddled with the several
supposedly bad songs that were composed in that era.

Why are people fixated on binary categorizations like "before 1945 =
good", "after 1965 = bad", which miss so many lovely shades of grey?
Can't a song be enjoyed for its own sake irrespective of when it was
composed?

[Balaji Murthy]

Wow! Didn't realize a simple query on my part would result in this
sandstorm :).

Yes, my reference was specifically about the claim "Digitized Geet
Kosh on Steroids", which I still believe is a mighty claim,
considering the standard HFGK has set. But, I have not summarily
dismissed Param's claim or post. I merely asked for more information,
which I now see has been provided. If it indeed is a resource of the
stature claimed, it will be used well and be noted.

- Balaji

[surjit singh]

Not much work done: CHECK
Grandiose claims: CHECK
Inappropriate comparison with HFGK: CHECK
Likely to be a joke: YES, in my books

HFGK is a series of BOOKs called Encyclopedia. Param is contemplating a computerized, indexed, searchable (web-served) DATABASE. He should be comparing it with with similar databases e.g. earthmusic.net and I would be extremely surprised if his proposed work comes even close to that.

[naniwadekar]

One good thing about any post-1970 database is that none of the
Naushad songs in it are actually Ghulam Mohammed's. But some of them
could have been composed by Dr Kapur, and some by Balaji. Being
gentlemen like Mohammed Shafi, they (MLK and BM) do not speak out
about the compositions they have lent to others. I wonder whether the
database on steroids has captured these nuances.

- dn

[Param]

Everyone who came out with words of encouragement - I really
appreciate it. I am monitoring this thread but trying to avoid jumping
in unless I have to. Jumping in now since DN asked a question (at
least I think he did!).

DN - We're focussing on official credits. However, additional
information will be available in the trivia element associated with
each album/song. We are seeding trivia at launch with a some
information but it will certainly not be comprehensive. Users can
submit trivia along with credible reference. My team will also be
working to enrich the trivia post launch but my sense is that this
will always be work in progress.

Coming to your specific example - I was not aware of MLK/BM (any
connection with the Balaji who posted earlier?) lending their
compositions to Naushad and this would not have been part of the db at
launch. Fascinating info though! If you provide me details (which
songs) and some reference, I'll have it included.

Thanks,
Param

[naniwadekar]

Param: There is no way that Balaji (who posted earlier) would ever
compose songs as horrible as Naushad's post-1970 stuff, and there is
no way you can possibly be as dumb as you are pretending to be. But,
as they say, no limit for human stupidity has yet been found. On the
one hand I cannot imagine anybody being stupid enough to listen to R D
Burman's music, but on the other hand I can see otherwise sensible
people willingly listening to that junk, and now we apparently have a
group of people spending months listening and databasing music by R D
Burman and his children which even a pig ought to know enough not to
listen to. I do not know whether you will take these comments
personally but note that this has been my stand all along. You wrote
on Oct 14 that you have followed Prof Surjit Singh's posts on rmim. If
you have followed my posts or check the forum's archives (not that
there is any reason for you to do so as such), you will find that I
consider post-1970 music to be beneath even pigs. We are so far apart
in our tastes when it comes to the music you are currently dealing
with, that no communication is possible between us. As I had already
told you, if you really back up all your claims, it would still mean
nothing to me. I am simply not interested in 1970s music and any
database dealing with it.

- dn

[premc...@gmail.com]

Dosto,

Tastes in food, music, art clothes etc is a very personal thing. I
don't see
any reason to be abusive to people who happen to have a taste
different
to yours. Amen

PJ

[Afzal A. Khan]

The operative words in your response are "credible reference".
That should mean irrefutable proof.


Afzal

[naniwadekar]

On Oct 19, 10:05 am, "Afzal A. Khan" wrote:
>
>          The operative words in your response are "credible reference".
>          That should mean irrefutable proof.
>

Afzal Sahab: 'Credible reference' does not mean irrefutable proof.
There are instances where footnotes have been supplied in Geet Kosh to
the effect, as an example, that 'Bulo C Rani, assistant to Khemchand
in film Y, claimed one song in the film to be his composition'. BCR
could not provide irrefutable proof for it but his claim is correctly
quoted as something that should be seriously considered and may well
be true. Of course the person/team doing the documentation needs to
have good judgement about the subject matter.

- dn

[Afzal A. Khan]

My comment was meant for Shri Param.

If someone wants to create a database that would be permanently
available to posterity, I would say that any "trivia" included
therein ought not to be trivial in nature. Just my view. These
can be included only if "credible references" are available
therefor. These should not be based on rumour-mongering or clumsy
innuendos.

You gave the example of Bulo C. Rani. Right now, I am not worried
about whether BCR gave (or even had) definite proof about what he
claimed. Seriously, though, one ought to look into two aspects :
1. To whom did BCR give that statement ?
2. Any direct link between that person and the entry appearing in
Geet Kosh ?

Now, I shall give one example. In May 2006, someone sent a post
on RMIM about music director Naushad's "cremation" rites and
attributed the (entirely false) report to family sources. I felt
compelled to point out the true facts and also quoted a detailed
news report that had the correct particulars. Should we be
interested in publishing and perpetuating such wrong information ?

It was in these circumstances that I had underscored the words
used by Shri Param. I am sure he and his colleagues have every
intention of excluding wrong information and false stories.


Afzal

[naniwadekar]

On Oct 19, 4:19 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" wrote:
>
> You gave the example of Bulo C. Rani. Right now, I am not worried
> about whether BCR gave (or even had) definite proof about what he
> claimed. Seriously, though, one ought to look into two aspects :
> 1. To whom did BCR give that statement ?
> 2. Any direct link between that person and the entry appearing in
> Geet Kosh ?
>

I do not know to whom BCR had spoken. I do know that Hamraaz had met
him, and it is a fair guess that members of Hamraaz's team might have
met him a few times in Hamraaz's absence. (There is no formal entity
which could be called 'Hamraaz's team'.) Several people have supplied
input to Hamraaz. I had once met S D Batish at Hamraaz's instance.
Batish told me several things which are not known to the outside
world. If such information is included in the Geet Kosh (for example,
Batish was Annasaheb Mainkar's assistant for Charanon Ki Daasee in
1941/42, a factoid simply not known to music fans), only Batish's name
appears against it as its source, not of the person to whom the info
was given. When a footnote is added to a film's entry it simply means
that Hamraaz considers it worth adding,. So BCR either passed the info
to Hamraaz himself or to somebody with whom Hamraaz has some sort of
link.

I should also add that Hamraaz is forced to use his discretion, and
that is as it should be. For example, the song 'ai dil mujhe ab le
chal' is attributed to Suraiya or Zohra in HFGK. On what basis? I
guess some one told Hamraaz, and he believed it. But I am sure that
song is in Zeenat Begum's voice. Urzung Khan and Jayaraman agree with
me. Hamraaz regards it as guess-work (which is what it is) and is
reluctant to change the entry. Suraiya's name has possession of that
song and it is now 9/10ths of the law. These things happen. Entries in
Geet Kosh should be treated with due care, a point which the compiler
himself accepts.

As averse as Hamraaz is to relying on memory/guesses, lot of
information in Geet Kosh is as per the memory/guesses, an unavoidable
contradiction. Shyam Sunder's wife said that Madan Mohan finished work
for Alif Laila after SS's death. This info appears in the Geet Kosh.
Is Mrs SS a credible witness?: Why not? But proof? There is none. As
it happens, J L Bhatia, a far more reliable source who assisted Shyam
Sunder for Alif Laila, told me this year that Madan Mohan had nothing
to do with Alif Laila. N Datta composed two songs after Shyam Sunder's
death. Geet Kosh quotes 3 or 4 different names associated with
'bhaarat kii ek sannaaree', based on info given by people associated
with that film, and yet all the names are wrong. I spoke to the actual
singers in 2004 and both of them confirmed that my info was correct.
This is a slippery field where you better not insist on irrefutable
proof when documentation is absent or is present but suspect, and deal
with the information as best as you can. That is what Hamraaz has
done.

- dn

[Abhay Jain]

"Param" wrote in message
news:6007d3e7-1c46-4678...@u9g2000vby.googlegroups.com...

Hello fellow music buffs,

We're launching MySwar (http://www.myswar.com) in a few weeks. Think
of it as the digitized Geet Kosh on steroids. Please do sign-up and
spread the word.

Find out more about what you can expect from my company blog (http://
www.mavrix.in/about/about-mavrix/).

Thanks,
Param

-------------------

You would have been better off not announcing till you had some beta version
for people to play with. Mere an announcement has fueled skepticism.

Hopefully your work does not turn out to be like that of Korean scientist
who
claimed to have cloned humans.

Curiously waiting.

AJ

[Prasanna Tamhankar]

Param,

Please ignore the diatribe and don't get disheartened by people who,
in my humble opinion, are being bit too harsh. The best way to silence
any detractor is putting forward your work and let it speak for
itself.

Frankly, I don't understand why people even try to compartmentalise
music based on criteria such as the time it was created, person who
directed a particular song or person who sang it etc. I have even read
drivel from people on this forum that "good" music died at the stroke
of mid-night on such and such date in 19[yy] (OK, I made that "stroke
of mid-night" up, but you get the point anyway). The fact that *you*
like music based on a certain criteria doesn't mean *that* is the best
music. It is, only to you. Choice of music, like religion, is deeply
personal. No point preaching it from roof tops claiming yours is the
best. Anyway, I digress. Do announce when the website is fully
functional.

Regards,
Prasanna

[Afzal A. Khan]

First things first : I do not know exactly what the website
would be like. I have read the FAQ. I presume it would be
something above and beyond Giitaayan, by including audio.
It is to be launched sometime next month. Since the job is
so monumental, I think it has been in the works for quite some
time. Lastly, I believe we should not "knock it", before even
having a look at it and trying it out.

Now, for your above post :

About S.D. Batish ---> Whatever he might have told you can be
related by you through an RMIM post or other suitable method.
Of course, the assumption here is that the contents of your
post or report are not "embellished" in any way. Since his
name and your name would be available, a direct link is
established and it can be given the status of "credible
reference".

About BCR ---> I had indicated two aspects that, IMO, required
to be looked into. Now, it is quite on the cards that those
two aspects were in fact NOT looked into and it may not be
possible to do so at this stage. In that case, my view is
that the information can be furnished, provided a clear-cut
caveat is also included about the "hearsay" nature of the
information and that these two aspects were not looked into.
The readers then can exercise their own judgment whether to
believe or disregard that piece of information. Such an
entry in the database would serve the purpose of "caveat
emptor".

About Suraiyya, Zohrabai or Zeenat Begum song ---> I think
all four references should be given, viz. the opinions of
Hamraaz, Nani, Urzung Khan and Jayaraman. If the song itself
is available for listening, a reader can give it a listen and
decide for himself --- or (as is more likely) remain undecided
and simply enjoy the song.

I have merely indicated the methodology for selection and
inclusion of "trivia" in the new Website. As it is, the
job is quite huge (in my view) and these gentlemen may not
after all decide to include any "trivia" as such --- at
least not at the initial launch.

Lastly, I would ask whether it is really necessary to involve
the Geet Kosh in these discussions ? Shri Param and his
colleagues would begin (or have already begun) their task
from '70s music onwards. I don't know whether Hamraaz has
much to say (if at all) on this period.




Afzal

[naniwadekar]

Afzal Sahab: I do not know why you mention the word 'hearsay' about
Bulo C Rani when you do not know to whom he had given his input. As
such, so much of the information, particularly the footnotes, in Geet
Kosh volumes is 'hearsay' by Hamraaz (and team).

>
> Lastly, I would ask whether it is really necessary to involve
> the Geet Kosh in these discussions ? Shri Param and his
>

Param himself referred to Geet Kosh and has said that they intend to
cover the earlier decades eventually. While each decade may have to be
addressed per its specific situation (how much info is documented, how
many protagonists are still around, etc) the main point I have made is
that 'credible evidence' should not, need not, does not mean
irrefutable proof.

- dn

[Sanu Satu]

@nani - u should be lucky that taParam hasn't sued you for defamation.
BTW are you so grumpy always or only when jealous?

[naniwadekar]

Sanu Satu : At least 50,000 people do not like what I think about
their musical taste. If they sued me together and grabbed all the
money I have (Rs 5,000), they will get 10 paisa each. It is not worth
anybody's while to worry all that much about music discussions.

- dn

[Mukhtalif]

> Coming to your specific example - I was not aware of MLK/BM (any
> connection with the Balaji who posted earlier?) lending their
> compositions to Naushad and this would not have been part of the db at
> launch. Fascinating info though! If you provide me details (which
> songs) and some reference, I'll have it included.
>
> Thanks,
> Param

There was a time when I thought music started with Shanker Jaikishan
and everybody before them cried over Sarangi, Harmonium and Tabla; men
in strange voices and women like tawaifs. Now I dislike music from
1930 -2011 and also like music from 1930 to 2011.

Guess, you jumped the gun.... Should have come here when your site was
up and functional.