Whats there in religion?
zoo...@my-dejanews.com
amazed to see so many Cassettes with Mohd. Rafi as the singer. The bhajans,
and other songs, which is considered to be all Hindu by the fundamentallists,
which truely bring out the inner feelings and Bhakti. ... And we are fighting
over religion!!
One interesting example is the famous "Man Tarpat Hari Darshan ko Aaj" from
Baiju Bawra. Singer: Mohd. Rafi, Music: Naushad, Lyrics: Shakeel Badayuni.
Even the number from Kohinoor; Madhuban mein radhika naache has the same
team, with Dillip Kumar, the lead star!
Any more such songs?
The morale of the story: There is one God, who is to be worshiped from the
core of heart. There is no religion that can bind the human spirit,
especially the pure things in life, lie love and music in the boundaries of
religion. Because, obviosly, Allah tero naam, ishwar tero naam.
Swaraj
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
il_...@yahoo.com
zoo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> When I had gone to the cassette shop to get a Filmi Bhajan Cassette, I was
> amazed to see so many Cassettes with Mohd. Rafi as the singer. The bhajans,
> and other songs, which is considered to be all Hindu by the fundamentallists,
> which truely bring out the inner feelings and Bhakti. ... And we are fighting
> over religion!!
>
> One interesting example is the famous "Man Tarpat Hari Darshan ko Aaj" from
> Baiju Bawra. Singer: Mohd. Rafi, Music: Naushad, Lyrics: Shakeel Badayuni.
> Even the number from Kohinoor; Madhuban mein radhika naache has the same
> team, with Dillip Kumar, the lead star!
>
> Any more such songs?
One need not be surprised by this. Shankar-Shambhu qawwals have
sung a great many "na'ats"/"munqibats" as qawwalis. These are
verses written in praise of Prophet Mohammed and various Muslim
saints like Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti of Ajmer Sharif. I am not
sure though whether they have sung for films too. However, I
have a faint recollection that they (or at least one of them)
were associated with a qawwali from "Barsaat Ki Raat" ---
probably "Nigaah-e-naaz ke maaron ka haal kya hoga" --- and
that person was amongst the qawwals shown during the scene.
One of these two (I do not remember which --- probably Shambhu)
died in a car accident some 3 years back.
Afzal
prade...@my-dejanews.com
"Garm Hawa" by MS Sathyu, had a wonderful devotional Quawali ( exactly what is
it called, Afzal?; Is it Naat? ) that went something like " Allah Salim
Chisti...". I am not sute who sang it. Any clues?
Pradeep
Mo
When I had gone to the cassette shop to get a Filmi Bhajan
Cassette, I was
amazed to see so many Cassettes with Mohd. Rafi as the
singer. The bhajans,
and other songs, which is considered to be all Hindu by the
fundamentallists,
which truely bring out the inner feelings and Bhakti. ...
And we are fighting
over religion!!
One interesting example is the famous "Man Tarpat Hari
Darshan ko Aaj" from
Baiju Bawra. Singer: Mohd. Rafi, Music: Naushad, Lyrics:
Shakeel Badayuni.
Even the number from Kohinoor; Madhuban mein radhika naache
has the same
team, with Dillip Kumar, the lead star!
Any more such songs?
The morale of the story: There is one God, who is to be
worshiped from the
core of heart. There is no religion that can bind the human
spirit,
especially the pure things in life, lie love and music in
the boundaries of
religion. Because, obviosly, Allah tero naam, ishwar tero
naam.
Swaraj
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network
S44218
about Shambhu-Shankar Qawwal ? I have heard them sing, but have been curious to
know more about these two artists.
Thank you
Sandip
Ashok
>
>The moral of the story: There is one God,
Don't forget another genuine alternative: There are zero gods!
>There is no religion that can bind the human spirit,
Religions are designed to bind the human spirit.
>especially the pure things in life, lie love and music in the boundaries of
>religion. Because, obviosly, Allah tero naam, ishwar tero naam.
>
>Swaraj
In article <7fu5em$bqt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, il_...@yahoo.com says...
>
>>
>> Any more such songs?
>
> One need not be surprised by this. Shankar-Shambhu qawwals have
> sung a great many "na'ats"/"munqibats" as qawwalis. These are
> verses written in praise of Prophet Mohammed and various Muslim
> saints like Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti of Ajmer Sharif. I am not
> sure though whether they have sung for films too. However, I
> have a faint recollection that they (or at least one of them)
> were associated with a qawwali from "Barsaat Ki Raat" ---
> probably "Nigaah-e-naaz ke maaron ka haal kya hoga" --- and
> that person was amongst the qawwals shown during the scene.
> One of these two (I do not remember which --- probably Shambhu)
> died in a car accident some 3 years back.
>
> Afzal
Thanks, Afzal. I didn't know Shankar and Shambhu were two different
individuals! I thought it was one singer named Shankar Shambhu 'Qawwaal'!
Yes "they" are involved in the lineup of singers for that 'Barsaat Ki
Raat' qawwali, along with Asha Bhosle and Sudha Malhotra.
There was a 1975 film called "Tumhara Kalloo", which had two music
directors (I should say three!): Shankar-Shambhu and Kanu Roy. It
was a film directed by Basu Bhattacharya. Perhaps an art film. It
had only two songs, on the two sides of an EP (45 rpm). The song
composed by Shankar-Shambu is a qawwali, sung by them, with lyrics
by Dil Lakhnavi:
. ek hee vaar me.n faislaa ho jaaegaa
The other song is also out of the ordinary. It was composed by
Kanu Roy; words were by Jnan Dev Agnihotri, and the voices that
of Madan Chopra and chorus. The song went:
. daradiyo naa jaane o mere raajaa
It comes to mind that there was a film in 1976 by the name
'Shankar Shambhu' starring Feroz Khan, Sulakshana Pandit and
Vinod Khanna. I don't think it had anything to do with the
qawwaals, although it had a qawwaali sung by two other well-
known qawwaals: Aziz Nazaan and Jani Babu:
. ham looTane aae hai.n, ham looT ke jaaenge
Nice enough qawwaali. I have no idea about other songs. The
soundtrack is interesting P-statistically: it brings together
Kalyanji-Anandji and Sahir (any other films with that combination?)
In article <7fuc8n$h40$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, prade...@my-dejanews.com says...
>
>
>"Garm Hawa" by MS Sathyu, had a wonderful devotional Quawali ( exactly what is
>it called, Afzal?; Is it Naat? ) that went something like " Allah Salim
>Chisti...". I am not sute who sang it. Any clues?
>
>Pradeep
Sami's post on the qawwaalis thread alluded to it. The singer and
composer of the qawwaali is the great qawwaal from Hyderabad, Aziz
Ahmed Khan Warsi. The words are by Kaifi Azmi, going by Geet Kosh
and the general credits in the film, but I kind of remember Sami
feeling that it might be a traditional song, when it came up for
discussion sometime ago. The overall music for the film was by the
sarod artist Ustad Bahadur Khan.
I am re-posting the words. These are the lines that are included
in the film. Corrections and additions welcome.
sookhi rut me.n chhaayi badariya, chamaki bijuriya saath
Doobo tum bhi sang mere, yaa thaamo mera haath
maulaa salim chish_ti, aaqaa salim chish_ti | x2
aabaad kar do dil ki duniyaa salim chish_ti | x2
jitani balaayen aayi, sab ko gale lagaayaa | x2
khu.n (?) ho gaya kaleja, shiqawaa na lab pe aayaa | x2
har dard ham ne apanaa, apane se bhi chhupaayaa
har dard ham ne apanaa haa
har dard ham ne apanaa, apane se bhi chhupaayaa | x2
tum se nahin hai koi pardaa salim chish_ti
maulaa salim chish_ti ...
jaayegaa kaun aake, pyaasaa tumhaare dar se | x2
kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
kuchh jaam se piyenge haa
kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa haa
ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
ye dil agar tumhaaraa TooTaa (?) salim chish_ti | x2
maulaa salim chish_ti ...
I find the line "ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa toDenge
apne sar se," and Warsi's rendition of it, very moving.
Ashok
il_...@yahoo.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> The overall music for the film was by the
> sarod artist Ustad Bahadur Khan.
I did not see this movie and cannot recall the
qawwali either.
>
> I am re-posting the words. These are the lines that are included
> in the film. Corrections and additions welcome.
>
> sookhi rut me.n chhaayi badariya, chamaki bijuriya saath
> Doobo tum bhi sang mere, yaa thaamo mera haath
>
> maulaa salim chish_ti, aaqaa salim chish_ti | x2
> aabaad kar do dil ki duniyaa salim chish_ti | x2
>
> jitani balaayen aayi, sab ko gale lagaayaa | x2
> khu.n (?) ho gaya kaleja, shiqawaa na lab pe aayaa | x2
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
"KhooN seems correct. This word needs to be spelled as
"shikwaa" = complaint.
Even Kishore Kumar has mispronounced
this word on occasions.
> har dard ham ne apanaa, apane se bhi chhupaayaa
> har dard ham ne apanaa haa
> har dard ham ne apanaa, apane se bhi chhupaayaa | x2
> tum se nahin hai koi pardaa salim chish_ti
> maulaa salim chish_ti ...
>
> jaayegaa kaun aake, pyaasaa tumhaare dar se | x2
> kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
> kuchh jaam se piyenge haa
> kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
> ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
> ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa haa
> ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
> ye dil agar tumhaaraa TooTaa (?) salim chish_ti | x2
^^^^^^^^^
I think the proper word here is "hamaara", rather than
"tumhaara". The poet/singer says : If my heart gets
broken (i.e. if my request remains unfulfilled), then
I will keep on bashing my head against your doorstep
till THAT breaks. (Agar hamaara dil toot gaya to
tumhaara sang-e-dar sar patak patak kar tod denge).
Afzal
>
> Ashok
il_...@yahoo.com
prade...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> "Garm Hawa" by MS Sathyu, had a wonderful devotional Quawali ( exactly what is
> it called, Afzal?; Is it Naat? ) that went something like " Allah Salim
> Chisti...". I am not sute who sang it. Any clues?
>
> Pradeep
Just now I have posted a response to Ashok's post
where he wrote the lyrics of this qawwali. There
was just one error : I did see "Garm Hawa", though
I do not recollect the qawwali. Great performance
by Balraj Sahni. Brilliantly directed. The
qawwali (as posted by Ashok) is NOT a Naat. "Naat"
is a poem composed in praise of the Prophet Mohammed.
Any poem in praise of God is known as "Hamd". For
poems in praise of other holy people like Shaikh
Salim Chishti, the proper word is "Manqibat".
Afzal
Sami Mohammed
il_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7g50jn$1...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
> > The overall music for the film was by the
> > sarod artist Ustad Bahadur Khan.
>
> I did not see this movie and cannot recall the
> qawwali either.
It's a wonderful quawwali.
> > I am re-posting the words. These are the lines that are included
> > in the film. Corrections and additions welcome.
I somehow remember having posted the missing verses when this quawwali was
discussed back in Nov/Dec '95. I tried to dig that out from Deja News
archives but couldn't access them y'day. Will give it another shot. There are
some wonderful lines that have been chopped off to shorten the quawwali for
the film. BTW, another quawwali of Aziz Sahab is included in my web page
(http://www.geocities.com/~sm0e/R-aziz.txt). Anant, this is another attempt
to project the site as exciting :-)
> > khu.n (?) ho gaya kaleja, shiqawaa na lab pe aayaa | x2
> ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> "KhooN seems correct. This word needs to be spelled as
> "shikwaa" = complaint.
> Even Kishore Kumar has mispronounced
> this word on occasions.
Could you please provide the songs where KK slipped. Would love to add them to
the "arsenal" :-)
> > ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
> > ye dil agar tumhaaraa TooTaa (?) salim chish_ti | x2
> ^^^^^^^^^
>
> I think the proper word here is "hamaara", rather than
> "tumhaara". The poet/singer says : If my heart gets
> broken (i.e. if my request remains unfulfilled), then
> I will keep on bashing my head against your doorstep
> till THAT breaks. (Agar hamaara dil toot gaya to
> tumhaara sang-e-dar sar patak patak kar tod denge).
Although the above explanation makes perfect sense, Aziz Sahab does sing it
as "tumhara" and not humara. Even the chorus repeats it as "tumhara". Perhaps
the tacit assumption is that his heart will break (he will sympathize with
us) if we implore by bowing our head at his dehleez.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)… sure about the word but not the explanation
Sami Mohammed
Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > > I am re-posting the words. These are the lines that are included
> > > in the film. Corrections and additions welcome.
>
> I somehow remember having posted the missing verses when this quawwali was
> discussed back in Nov/Dec '95. I tried to dig that out from Deja News
> archives but couldn't access them y'day. Will give it another shot. There are
Found it! I was searching under my name while the additons were actually
posted by Ashok on the net after I had emailed them to him. The lyrics may
well be by Kaifi Azmi. I'm not quite sure.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
*******************************************************************
Qawwaali by Aziz Ahmed Khan Warsi: Corrections and Additions
Author: Ashok <ADhar...@WorldBank.Org>
Date: 1995/12/05
Forum: rec.music.indian.misc
Qawwaali by Aziz Ahmed Khan Warsi from 'Garm Hawa'
According to Sami, the qawwaali is traditional. He has sent me
corrections and additional stanzas.
sookhi rut mein chhaayi badariya, chamaki bijuriya saath
Doobo tum bhi sang mere, yaa thaamo mera haath
maulaa salim chish_ti, aaKHaaa salim chish_ti | x2
^^^^^^^ not aagaa
aabaad kar do dil ki duniyaa salim chish_ti | x2
jitani balaayen aayi, sab ko gale lagaayaa | x2
khu.n ho gaya kaleja, shikawaa na lab pe aayaa | x2
har dard ham ne apanaa, apane se bhi chhupaayaa
har dard ham ne apanaa haa
har dard ham ne apanaa, apane se bhi chhupaayaa | x2
tum se nahin hai koi pardaa salim chish_ti
maulaa salim chish_ti ...
jaayegaa kaun aake, pyaasaa tumhaare dar se | x2
kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
kuchh jaam se piyenge haa
kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
==> This is where the missing part comes in:
Ek pyaali bhar ke de saaqui mai-e-gulphaam ki
Ek apne naam pi, aur ek Allah naam pi
MeTde poori meri hasrat dil-e-naakaam ki
Dede dede dard me koi soorat aaraam ki
GhoonT hi pila magar josh-e-tamanna Daal kar
Ek katra de magar katre me dariya Daal kar (I love this line!!)
Kuchh jaam se pienge, kuchh meherbaan nazar se....
ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa haa
ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
ye dil agar tumhaaraa TooTaa salim chish_ti | x2
maulaa salim chish_ti ...
==> There is more:
Is sang-e-dar ke sadque
Is rehguzar ke sadque
BhaTke hue musafir, manzil pe pahunche aaquir
UjRe (??) hue chaman me, ye rang-e-pairhan (?) me
Sau rang muskuraae, sau phool lailahaai
Aaee naee bahaaren, phalne lagi phuaaren
GhungaT ki laaj rakhna, is sar pe taj rakhna
Is sar pe taj rakhna
AaKHa Salim Chisti, Maula Salim Chishti....
I'm still not sure about the lyricist... will confirm.
Sami
Ashok
>
>>
>> jaayegaa kaun aake, pyaasaa tumhaare dar se | x2
>> kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
> ^^^^^^^^^
>
> I think the proper word here is "hamaara", rather than
> "tumhaara". The poet/singer says : If my heart gets
> broken (i.e. if my request remains unfulfilled), then
> I will keep on bashing my head against your doorstep
> till THAT breaks. (Agar hamaara dil toot gaya to
> tumhaara sang-e-dar sar patak patak kar tod denge).
>
>
It IS "tumhaaraa", as sung. I'd take to mean something like
"May your heart melt." Would seem to fit better as "bhaktirasa,"
but what does an atheist know? :)
Couple of other doubts: Sami writes "aaKhaa". It sounds more
like "aaqaa" to me. Which is right?
And, is it "chishti" or "chishTi"?
Ashok
tab...@my-dejanews.com
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> Couple of other doubts: Sami writes "aaKhaa". It sounds more
> like "aaqaa" to me. Which is right?
"aaqaa" is correct.
> And, is it "chishti" or "chishTi"?
It is "chishti".
--
tabassum
Sami Mohammed
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> Couple of other doubts: Sami writes "aaKhaa". It sounds more
> like "aaqaa" to me. Which is right?
I think I wrote "aaKHaa" and not aaKhaa. The KH sound is the same as in KHuda
and not as that in Khilona. It should be aaKHaa or aaqaa. I have used both KH
and q for the same sound in the past. The difference between the two is beyond
me.
> And, is it "chishti" or "chishTi"?
chishti with the t as in tota.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> Ashok
rdh...@del3.vsnl.net.in
> >
> >>
> >> jaayegaa kaun aake, pyaasaa tumhaare dar se | x2
> >> kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
> >> ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
> >> ye dil agar tumhaaraa TooTaa (?) salim chish_ti | x2
> > ^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > I think the proper word here is "hamaara", rather than
> > "tumhaara". The poet/singer says : If my heart gets
> > broken (i.e. if my request remains unfulfilled), then
> > I will keep on bashing my head against your doorstep
> > till THAT breaks. (Agar hamaara dil toot gaya to
> > tumhaara sang-e-dar sar patak patak kar tod denge).
> >
> >
> > Afzal
>
> It IS "tumhaaraa", as sung. I'd take to mean something like
> "May your heart melt."
Thanks, Ashok and others, for reminding me of, truly, the most exquisitely,
painfully moving song I've ever heard. I don't have a recording of the song
myself, and haven't heard it in a long time, so was surprised when most
people seem to agree that the word is not "hamaaraa" but "tumhaara". That's
unusual. "Hamaara" makes perfect sense in the context of the previous line,
"ye sang-e-dar tumhaara todenge apne sar se". I always assumed the point was,
as Afzal says: "if my heart breaks, I'll break my head upon your doors of
stone." I wonder if someone can check the second line again and see: is the
word Neither "hamaaraa" nor "tumhaaraa," but "dobaaraa" (as in twice")? The
reason I ask is that in the context of the film, the word dobaaraa makes
perfect sense, and is also one that can fairly easily be mistaken for
"tumhaaraa" viz a viz its sound. If you remember the plot of the film at the
point when this song begins, Geeta Kak and Jalal Agha have just had a
conversation about the Noorjehan/Jehangir "kabootar" anecdote, and just
before Jalal Agha comes up with the punch line about how Noorjehan let the
second "kabootar" go, Gita Kak says something like "doosra nahin udne
doongi." If I remember correctly, her romance with Jalal is a second one,
after she has once been dumped in a previous relationship. It ought to be
appropriate that the song in the lines we're discussing makes reference to
her hope that her heart doesn't break a second time. Which would make the two
lines mean "If my heart breaks AGAIN, I'll break my head upon your doors of
stone." All this, of course, is null and void if the word is most definitely
not "dobaara." If it's "tumhaara," however, the ONLY way the line could make
sense in relation to the previous one is if "tumhaaraa" is taken to mean "my
heart that belongs to you (Salim Chishti)" so that "tumhaara" becomes a
possessive pronoun that transfers ownership of the heart to the divine.
[This reminds me of a rather amusing man I used to know called Uttam Kumar,
who runs a retail store of export surplus garments in our neighbourhood. He
was one of those excessively polite people, who somehow felt that to use the
personal pronoun "I" or "mine" was somehow rude and arrogant. If I said,
"aapki dukaan kaisi chal rahi hai," he would say things like "ye aapki dukaan
hai" and so on. One day I dropped in, and after a few pleasantries, he said,
with folded palms, VERY humble-like, "aapka makaan ban gaya hai, ji." It took
me a few seconds to realize he wasn't talking about my (non-existent) house,
but his own!] Anyway, "tumhaara" seems like the most unlikely option, but
then if it's there, it's there. But even in that event, the heart being
referred to must most certainly belong to the plaintiff, as it were, and not
to the divine!
Roopa
il_...@yahoo.com
Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
> In article <7ga4go$5...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
> > like "aaqaa" to me. Which is right?
>
> I think I wrote "aaKHaa" and not aaKhaa. The KH sound is the same as in KHuda
> and not as that in Khilona. It should be aaKHaa or aaqaa. I have used both KH
> and q for the same sound in the past. The difference between the two is beyond
> me.
>
> > And, is it "chishti" or "chishTi"?
>
> chishti with the t as in tota.
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>
> > Ashok
The correct word is "Aaqaa". The "q" stands for the
Arabic/Persian/Urdu letter pronounced as "Qaaf".
Some other words commonly used where this letter
occurs are "qasam" (oath), "qaafila" (caravan),
"qat'l" (murder), "qal'b" (heart).
I think the confusion is caused by the fact that, in
Hyderabad, "q" is usually pronounced as "KH" as in
"KHuda". This stands for the Arabic/Persian/Urdu
letter "KHai" which is used in words like
"KHoon" (blood), "KHushi" (happiness), "KHat"
(letter) etc.
"Aaqaa" stands for "Master". It is rather an ornate
form of addressing a superior. To make it relevant
to the film scene, it is often used by the Djinn who
appears in fantasy pictures like "Alif Laila" or
"Aladin ka Jaadooi ChiraaGh" when he addresses his
Master : "Kya hukm hai mere aaqaa ?" !
The other word is "chishti", with a soft "t" sound.
There are four principal mystic orders in Islam
known respectively as "Suhrawardiya", "Chishtiya"
"Naqshbandiya" and, I think, "Nizaamiya". Holy
saints who bear the appellation "chishti" belong to
the "Chishtiya" mystic order. Two such saints are
Khwaja Salim Chishti and Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti.
Their mausoleums are in Agra and Ajmer respectively.
Afzal
Ashok
>
>In article <7ga4go$5...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
>
>> Couple of other doubts: Sami writes "aaKhaa". It sounds more
>> like "aaqaa" to me. Which is right?
>
>I think I wrote "aaKHaa" and not aaKhaa. The KH sound is the same as in KHuda
>and not as that in Khilona. It should be aaKHaa or aaqaa. I have used both KH
>and q for the same sound in the past. The difference between the two is beyond
>me.
>
The Roman script has no symbol for the first consonant in "kh"udaa.
ITRANS standard is "K". It does lead to misunderstanding, as happened
in the thread on poet "Kumaar" recently! "KH" and "Kh" are possible
informal alternatives.
Returning to "aaqaa", there is no question of its being the "kh" as
in "khilonaa". My question was whether it is "KH" as in "KHudaa" or
"q" as in "qaatil." (Sami, you can't be serious about the difference
between those two being beyond you! Unless, of course, you use
"q" for the sound in "KHudaa" and "qu" for the sound in "quatil".
Workable, but my instinct when I see "qu" is to pronounce "kw"!)
Folks, here is the ITRANS convention. Glancing at it once might
clarify things.
Ashok
Vowels:
-------
a aa or A i ii or I u uu or U
R^i R^I L^i L^I
e ai o au aM aH
Consonants:
-----------
k kh g gh N^
ch chh j jh JN
T Th D Dh N
t th d dh n
p ph b bh m
y r l v
sh shh s h
L x (or ksh) GY shr
Consonants with a nukta (dot) under them (mainly for Urdu devanagari):
-----------------------------------------
k with a dot: q
kh with a dot: K
g with a dot: G
j with a dot: z
p with a dot: f
D with a dot: .D
Dh with a dot: .Dh
Specials/Accents:
-----------------
Anusvara: .n, M (dot on top of previous askhar *--see note at end)
Avagraha: .a (S like symbol basically to replace a after o)
Ardhachandra: .c (for vowel sound as in cat or talk)
Chandra-Bindu: .N (chandra-bindu on top of previous akshar)
Halant: .h (to get half-form of the consonant - no vowel - virama)
Ra ligature: .r (top curve as in ii to get r sound, half r)
(.r put after the intended consonant, e.g u{dhva}.r)
Visarga: H (visarga - looks like a colon character)
Om: OM, AUM (Om symbol)
-----------------
Consonants have been shown without any vowel, add suffix "a" to produce
a normal consonant, example, "jaya" or "jay" for (JA)-(YA), etc.
Watch out for ambiguous input: use _ to break lexical scans, example:
use "ga_ii" instead of "gaii" when you need (GA)-(VOWEL ii), because "gaii"
will be parsed as (GA with dependent VOWEL ai)-(VOWEL i)!
But in most cases the _ is not needed...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Each devanagari letter is constructed as C + C + C + .. + V
(one or more consonants, followed by a vowel).
If the vowel is omitted at the end of a word, the "a" vowel will be
assumed (use halant - .h to get the short form of the consonant - which
is a consonant without any vowel, ex: k.h).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Punctuation available:
, ; : / ? ! ( )
Note that hyphen (-) is not available --- use \- in the indian text to get
a hyphen. Also, use \. to get period (.), for Danda, use | or a period.
Ashok
>
> I think the confusion is caused by the fact that, in
> Hyderabad, "q" is usually pronounced as "KH" as in
> "KHuda".
>
> Afzal
I see. That's why discriminating between the two is
NOT beyond Kishore Kumar.
:)
Ashok
Sami Mohammed
rdh...@del3.vsnl.net.in wrote:
> In article <7ga4go$5...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> > >> jaayegaa kaun aake, pyaasaa tumhaare dar se | x2
> > >> kuchh jaam se piyenge, kuchh meherbaa.n nazar se | x2
> > >> ye sang-e-dar tumhaaraa, toDenge apane sar se | x2
> > >> ye dil agar tumhaaraa TooTaa (?) salim chish_ti | x2
> Thanks, Ashok and others, for reminding me of, truly, the most exquisitely,
> painfully moving song I've ever heard. I don't have a recording of the
> song
Recordings of Aziz Warsi's quawwalis are easily available in Hyderabad. These
are, however, made locally and may not be available in other cities.
> stone." I wonder if someone can check the second line again and see: is the
> word Neither "hamaaraa" nor "tumhaaraa," but "dobaaraa" (as in twice")? The
> reason I ask is that in the context of the film, the word dobaaraa makes
> perfect sense, and is also one that can fairly easily be mistaken for
> "tumhaaraa" viz a viz its sound.
Quite an intelligent guess, Roopa! I listened to it y'day on 2 different
recordings and the word is indeed "dubaaraa". "Ab jaake aaya mere bechain dil
ko quaraar…" :-) It makes perfect sense now and I can rest in peace.
> not "dobaara." If it's "tumhaara," however, the ONLY way the line could make
> sense in relation to the previous one is if "tumhaaraa" is taken to mean "my
> heart that belongs to you (Salim Chishti)" so that "tumhaara" becomes a
> possessive pronoun that transfers ownership of the heart to the divine.
A correction is in order here. Salim Chishti is not given divine status
although he is being asked for help. Strictly speaking, this quawwali may be
against the Islamic principle of not asking anyone other than God for help
(not the usual "help" as in help with homework, etc.) . This is a debatable
point and a detailed discussion is beyond the bounds of this ng.
> [This reminds me of a rather amusing man I used to know called Uttam Kumar,
> who runs a retail store of export surplus garments in our neighbourhood. He
> was one of those excessively polite people, who somehow felt that to use the
> personal pronoun "I" or "mine" was somehow rude and arrogant. If I said,
> "aapki dukaan kaisi chal rahi hai," he would say things like "ye aapki dukaan
> hai" and so on.
This was funny. Roopa ji aapko KH aur q me difference nahin maalum ji, kyun
ke aap Hyderabad ke hai :-) I wonder if people who do not know the Urdu
spelling of a word (whether it is with a Qaaf or KHai) can discern between Q
and KH in a song from the enunciation of the singer.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> Roopa
Sami Mohammed
In article <7g9ui5$k4g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Is sang-e-dar ke sadque
> Is rehguzar ke sadque
> BhaTke hue musafir, manzil pe pahunche aaquir
> UjRe (??) hue chaman me, ye rang-e-pairhan (?) me
This should be:
UjRe hue chaman me, be-rang pairhan me
> Sau rang muskuraae, sau phool lailahaae
> Aaee naee bahaaren, phalne lagi phuaaren
> GhungaT ki laaj rakhna, is sar pe taj rakhna
> Is sar pe taj rakhna
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
**********************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Kahun kyun ke duniya raqueeb hai
Mera apna dil hi ajeeb hai
Na ye dushman hai na habeeb hai
Main kabhi na isko samajh saka
Kabhi apnon se bhi raha quafa
Kabhi begaanon me behel gaya
Sahir in "...jo ye dil diwana machal gaya.." (Dharamputra)
***********************************************************************
il_...@yahoo.com
Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
> A correction is in order here. Salim Chishti is not given divine status
> although he is being asked for help. Strictly speaking, this quawwali may be
> against the Islamic principle of not asking anyone other than God for help
> (not the usual "help" as in help with homework, etc.) . This is a debatable
> point and a detailed discussion is beyond the bounds of this ng.
I was about to bring up this point, though briefly, because
(as Sami says) it is somewhat beyond the scope of this
Newsgroup. One of the fundamental tenets of Islam is the
Oneness of God ("Tauheed"). Any attempt to ascribe a Divine
Attribute to someone else is "Shirk" or the "Sin of Inclusion".
But, over the years, other influences have crept in and thus,
very often, in poems and songs (particularly qawwalis), such
ideas are given free play. Just the other day, Sami made
a reference to one of his pages which contains a poem composed
by the late Hyderabadi poet Amjad Hyderabadi, which has also
been sung as a qawwali. A reading of this poem will make this
idea clear. Here, the poet is employing the basic tenet
referred to above, when the supplicant is being exhorted to
continue making his request ("phir maang, phir maang"). This
exhortation is through God Himself. This poem can be contrasted
with the "Garm Hawa" qawwali, where the supplicant is beseeching
the holy saint Salim Chishti to grant his wish. IIRC, both
qawwalis are sung by Aziz Khan Warsi of Hyderabad, and (in a
way) this is ironic. Basically, singers and qawwals are
professional people. Singing is their livelihood. And it
should not be a matter of surprise that a singer will sing both
qawwalis (in praise of the Prophet/holy saints) and also
bhajans in praise of, say, Krishna.
BTW, the late Amjad Hyderabadi was renowned for composing
"rubaa'is" (quatrains in a special metre). He is probably the
greatest exponent of this genre of poetic composition in the
annals of Urdu literature. Other poets have also composed
"rubaa'is" but as a small part of their poetic output, whereas
Amjad made it the core of his poetic efforts.
> This was funny. Roopa ji aapko KH aur q me difference nahin maalum ji, kyun
> ke aap Hyderabad ke hai :-) I wonder if people who do not know the Urdu
> spelling of a word (whether it is with a Qaaf or KHai) can discern between Q
> and KH in a song from the enunciation of the singer.
I suppose the basic requirement here is not knowing the Urdu
spelling of a word, but the ability to aurally distinguish the
two sounds "Qaaf" and "KHai" which are quite distinct. I doubt
whether Lata and Asha are familiar with written Urdu and the
peculiarities of its script, but their enunciation of these
two sounds, at least in the past, was impeccable. Similar
is the case with Kishore Kumar (while occasionally lapsing into
"q" instead of "k"). In recent times, sad to say, singers
like Udit Narayan, Kumar Sanu etc. do not adhere to proper
Urdu pronunciation.
Afzal
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
il_...@yahoo.com
Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > Is sang-e-dar ke sadque
> > Is rehguzar ke sadque
> > BhaTke hue musafir, manzil pe pahunche aaquir
> > UjRe (??) hue chaman me, ye rang-e-pairhan (?) me
>
> This should be:
>
> UjRe hue chaman me, be-rang pairhan me
>
> > Sau rang muskuraae, sau phool lailahaae
> > Aaee naee bahaaren, phalne lagi phuaaren
> > GhungaT ki laaj rakhna, is sar pe taj rakhna
> > Is sar pe taj rakhna
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>
> **********************************************************************
> Lines for the day:
>
> Kahun kyun ke duniya raqueeb hai
> Mera apna dil hi ajeeb hai
> Na ye dushman hai na habeeb hai
> Main kabhi na isko samajh saka
> Kabhi apnon se bhi raha quafa
> Kabhi begaanon me behel gaya
>
> Sahir in "...jo ye dil diwana machal gaya.." (Dharamputra)
> ***********************************************************************
Recently, Ashok made a point about adding "u" after
"q". I think this is quite pertinent. This practice
pertains to the English language. Here, for everybody's
convenience, we are merely employing the English alpha-
bet to write lyrics which were originally composed in a
different language Urdu or Hindi. When we write "qasam",
all of us understand which is the word that is being
transcribed or "transliterated". There should be no
need to write it as "quasam". If this postulate is
acceptable, we can eschew spellings like "sadque" and
"raqueeb".
Also, continuing on the theme of the "q" and "KH" sounds,
the word should be "aaKHir" which means "at last" or
"at long last".
Finally, in the second line of the second stanza, I feel
the proper word is "paRne" and not "phalne" :
Aayee nayi bahareN, paRne lageeN phuaareN
"Phuaar" is "light rain".
In the "Lines of the Day", can we write "KHafa"
instead of "quafa" ?
Kabhi apnoN se bhi raha KHafa
Afzal
rdh...@del3.vsnl.net.in
Sami Mohammed <sm...@geocities.com> wrote:
>I listened to it y'day on 2 different
> recordings and the word is indeed "dubaaraa". "Ab jaake aaya mere bechain dil
> ko quaraar…" :-) It makes perfect sense now and I can rest in peace.
Oh, good. If you heard "dubaara", then I suppose that settles it. I must say I
sympathize with your "dil a qaraar (see? no "u"!)" having been lost over the
word. Here's one more person who's going to sleep well tonight. :-)
>
> > not "dobaara." If it's "tumhaara," however, the ONLY way the line could make
> > sense in relation to the previous one is if "tumhaaraa" is taken to mean "my
> > heart that belongs to you (Salim Chishti)" so that "tumhaara" becomes a
> > possessive pronoun that transfers ownership of the heart to the divine.
>
> A correction is in order here. Salim Chishti is not given divine status
> although he is being asked for help. Strictly speaking, this quawwali may be
> against the Islamic principle of not asking anyone other than God for help
> (not the usual "help" as in help with homework, etc.)
Yes, of course. The moment I posted my previous note, I realized the use of
the word "divine" was inaccurate in this context. Though, speaking of
homework, from what I remember of the agony it used to be, I could be tempted
to ask the divine for help on that too!
>
> This was funny. Roopa ji aapko KH aur q me difference nahin maalum ji, kyun
> ke aap Hyderabad ke hai :-) I wonder if people who do not know the Urdu
> spelling of a word (whether it is with a Qaaf or KHai) can discern between Q
> and KH in a song from the enunciation of the singer.
:-). One certainly should be able to, unless the enunciation of the singer is
either unclear or ridiculously incorrect. I certainly can hear the difference.
Oops, or as Uttam Kumar would say, "aapko to saaf sunaai deta hai, Sami ji."
Roopa
Malini
il_...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Also, continuing on the theme of the "q" and "KH" sounds,
> the word should be "aaKHir" which means "at last" or
> "at long last".
> Finally, in the second line of the second stanza, I feel
> the proper word is "paRne" and not "phalne" :
>
> Aayee nayi bahareN, paRne lageeN phuaareN
>
> "Phuaar" is "light rain".
>
Shouldn't the word be 'phuhaar' instead of 'phuaar' or are both acceptable ?
On similar note I've question on the pronunciation of the word 'suhaanii' or
'duhaa_ii'. Is it 'suhaani' or 'sohaanii' and 'duhaa_ii' or 'dohaa_ii'. I
think both are acceptable because, I've heard Talat and Rafi in a few songs
pronouncing 'sohaanii' and I heard another guy saying 'dohaa_ii'.
-Malini
>
> In the "Lines of the Day", can we write "KHafa"
> instead of "quafa" ?
>
> Kabhi apnoN se bhi raha KHafa
>
> Afzal
>
Malini
Sami Mohammed wrote:
> This was funny. Roopa ji aapko KH aur q me difference nahin maalum ji, kyun
> ke aap Hyderabad ke hai :-) I wonder if people who do not know the Urdu
> spelling of a word (whether it is with a Qaaf or KHai) can discern between Q
> and KH in a song from the enunciation of the singer.
>
I can say this for myself. I love listening to Urdu language and I can follow most
of it although it'll be difficult for me to form a complicated sentence in
authentic Urdu. Some Indian films with Urdu as the language of communication, e.g.,
'Ghazal' and 'Benaziir', I watch just for listening to the language more than
anything else. The language is so polite, sweet and respectful. Because of my love
for this language, I pay a lot of attention to the pronunciation of Urdu words. I
really get put off by the movies of today where the artists do not care to
distinguish between kh and KH. I've heard people calling all the KHans in the
industry as khans. It just puts me off. If they are using a word in the language,
might as well spend some effort in pronouncing them correctly. The quality of
dialogue delivery has deteriorated in films made after 80s. I've noticed though
that singers of today do pay attention to the correct pronunciation. At least that
is not lost. Coming back to the point of being able to discern between Q and KH, I
can certainly do that in songs. Talat and Rafi make the distinction between 'Q' and
'k' very subtly, while Lata and Asha are very much pronounced. The pronunciation of
'Q' is closer to 'k' than to 'KH', so it is very easy to distinguish between the
two.
-Malini
il_...@yahoo.com
Malini <mal...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
> il_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Also, continuing on the theme of the "q" and "KH" sounds,
> > the word should be "aaKHir" which means "at last" or
> > "at long last".
> > Finally, in the second line of the second stanza, I feel
> > the proper word is "paRne" and not "phalne" :
> >
> > Aayee nayi bahareN, paRne lageeN phuaareN
> >
> > "Phuaar" is "light rain".
> >
>
> Shouldn't the word be 'phuhaar' instead of 'phuaar' or are both acceptable ?
> On similar note I've question on the pronunciation of the word 'suhaanii' or
> 'duhaa_ii'. Is it 'suhaani' or 'sohaanii' and 'duhaa_ii' or 'dohaa_ii'. I
> think both are acceptable because, I've heard Talat and Rafi in a few songs
> pronouncing 'sohaanii' and I heard another guy saying 'dohaa_ii'.
>
> -Malini
I suppose both may be considered acceptable. Normally,
"Phuaar" is written in Urdu with a "waav", i.e as
"Phuwaar". Sometimes, it is also written as "Phohaar",
but the former spelling is much more popular.
In the second case, the two words are written as
"suhaani" and "duhaai". Mostly it is pronounced with
a short "u" sound but sometimes, not often, it is
pronounced with an elongated (I was about to say,
more pronounced !) "o" sound. In songs, the latter type
of pronunciation could be due to the demands of the
tune.
Ashok
>
>
>
>Sami Mohammed wrote:
>
>> This was funny. Roopa ji aapko KH aur q me difference nahin maalum ji, kyun
>> ke aap Hyderabad ke hai :-)
Huh! I thought "dukaan" and "makaan" are right. Should they be
duqaan/maqaan or duKHaan/maKHaan? :)
>I wonder if people who do not know the Urdu
>> spelling of a word (whether it is with a Qaaf or KHai) can discern between Q
>> and KH in a song from the enunciation of the singer.
q -> k
KH -> kh
My discriminating powers are limited to: I am sure about which mistake I am
making! e.g., "kasam" and "khudaa". So, I know it is not "KHasam" and "qudaa".
q <- k
KH <- kh
Also, the above "mistakes of over-compensation." The former especially, e.g.,
"shiqaayat." Not so much the latter, perhaps because Persian and Arabic
do not seem to have "kh'.
q k
^
|
v
KH kh
Hadn't thought of the above till now. Is it confined to Hyderabad? :)
>I can say this for myself. I love listening to Urdu language and I can follow most
>of it although it'll be difficult for me to form a complicated sentence in
>authentic Urdu. Some Indian films with Urdu as the language of communication, e.g.,
>'Ghazal' and 'Benaziir', I watch just for listening to the language more than
>anything else. The language is so polite, sweet and respectful.
I would like to see people who know only Urdu quarrelling and insulting
one another!
>.............................................Because of my love
>for this language, I pay a lot of attention to the pronunciation of Urdu words. I
>really get put off by the movies of today where the artists do not care to
>distinguish between kh and KH. I've heard people calling all the KHans in the
>industry as khans. It just puts me off. If they are using a word in the language,
>might as well spend some effort in pronouncing them correctly.
Take it easy! Growing languages undergo changes. So, "kasam" is right for
some forms of the melange "Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani," just as "jhooT" is right
for some other forms of the melange. I doubt if even the most extreme
"pure Urdu freak" would insist on "paadshaah" over "baadshaah".
>Talat and Rafi make the distinction between 'Q' and
>'k' very subtly,
>-Malini
I thought the verdict was that Rafi made the distinction between "g" and "GH"
in the 'Kala Pani' song so subtle that the distinction vanished. :)
Ashok