Dil diya dard liya - 1965
Mala
commenced this movie
starring Dilip K and Nutan in the lead role in 1958 . After years of
seperation ARK signed up
moestro Naushad for composing the music . The production ran into
trouble and later
Vijayanthimala was replaced as heroine in place of Nutan .
The movie did not do well at the box office and Naushad's music failed
to inspire .
Does any one know why Nutan was replaced ?
It appears that some of the songs were recorded
in the late 1950's .
Mala
UVR
Vyjayanthimala in Dil Diya Dard Liya?
There must have been some superlative facial surgery done on her,
because when I saw the film, she looked a lot like Waheeda Rahman!
-UVR.
Mala
Sorry , Pardon my mistake Sir - It was Waheeda Rehman .
Mala
AR
> This is one of the movies which was delayed for 7 yrs . AR Kardar
> commenced this movie
> starring Dilip K and Nutan in the lead role in 1958 . After years of
> seperation ARK signed up
> moestro Naushad for composing the music . The production ran into
> trouble and later
> Vijayanthimala was replaced as heroine in place of Nutan .
> The movie did not do well at the box office and Naushad's music failed
> to inspire .
>
It's not clear what you mean by saying that Naushad's music failed to
inspire. Could you elaborate? I believe that Rafi's song "koi
saagar..." is popular even today.
"Saawan aaye ya na aaye" is included in typical compilations of
classical Hindi songs, and it's a beautiful Sarang, with rich
interludes, very well sung as well. And I treasure "kya rang-e-
mehfil.." as well, for its unusual tune, and an unusual one for Lata.
Come to think of it - here's a film where Naushad (of all people)
gives the more conventional "saawan aaye ya na aaye" to Asha, and a
cabaret like song to Lata.
Kalyan
I am only guessing here - going by the timelines you mentioned, it
could have been because of the couple of years break Nutan took in the
late 50s to early 60s because of marriage, childbirth etc.
More relevant to RMIM, I am curious about the break-up of Kardar with
Naushad. Any idea when it happened and what was the cause? And which
composer did Kardar go with in this period?
Kalyan
Mala
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you can catch hold of film reviews of this movie in Filmindia ,
Filmfare and Screen etc I am sure you will find the answer .
Many music lovers felt Naushad was not at his best .
Mala
Mala
Naushad broke up after Diwana . he was to compose music for
Dil-e-Nadan but due to differences he left and was completed by
his assistant Ghulam Mohd .
Mala
UVR
> It appears that some of the songs were recorded
> in the late 1950's .
>
> Mala
I'm interested in knowing which songs in particular you feel were
recorded in the late 50s; and if you would be so kind as to define
"late 50s" as well -- does it refer to 59-60 or 57-58 or 55-56?
I ask because to my ears Rafi's voice (also Lata's) in Dil Diya Dard
Liya sounds like it was in exactly the same condition as when the
songs of Mere Mehboob, Leader etc were recorded. Personally, I think
this particular type of Rafi voice was not heard in Naushad films
prior to Kohinoor. Even in Kohinoor, IMO, the song that comes closest
is "koi pyaar ki dekhe jaadoogari", and there too I'm tempted to say,
as the Americans do, 'close, but no cigar'. All this puts us within a
fairly narrow time range for when Dil Diya Dard Liya songs were
recorded.
-UVR.
sanjeev.r...@gmail.com
I am curious though whether that is a unique statement for DDDL. Did
Naushad get rave reviews among magazine reviewers and music lovers
after many or most of his other soundtracks?
Sanjeev
Afzal A. Khan
I am confining my comments only to the film's music.
I don't believe that the film's songs were recorded or even
composed earlier. Just my opinion. I think Naushad's musical
style went through a transition after "Kohinoor". Even "Leader"
doesn't quite remind you of the vintage Naushad.
He had been in the film industry for over two decades, by the time
DDDL was released. One's creative faculties cannot be functional
at the same high level for such a long time. We have seen this
happening to CR, amongst others. Times change. Film styles
(story, treatment) change. One cannot really expect that Naushad
could summon up the same creative energy and originality that he
had displayed in earlier films.
Dev Anand's "Kala Bazar" depicted the premiere of Mehboob Khan's
"Mother India", where one avid cinegoer, standing in the queue
at the Liberty Cinema, exclaims "it has Naushad's music, so I must
see it on the first day itself".
DDDL was also released at the Liberty Cinema. But the kind of
frenzied anticipation was absent. There were no long lines for
tickets. All in all, the film received a rather cool welcome
from the audience.
Afzal
Asif
It is nice to see the discussion on Dil Diya Dard Liya (1966) and its
music. I personally like a lot all those songs, especially 'dilarubaa
mai.nne tere' (featured at 27th paaydaan of BGM annual show of 1966)
and 'guzare hai.n aaj ishq me.n' (featured at 32nd paaydaan of the
same show). I tend to to believe (from a lot of other info about hit
music I have collected so far) that these two songs were far more
popular in 1966 than their ratings in BGM annual show suggest.
Anyway, so Naushad's music in the film was neither flop nor
uninspiring no matter what those reviewers in those magazines said -
it was pretty excellent. Those film critics, especially in Filmfare,
mostly wrote about the film and hardly said a thing about its music.
I think the reason why the film received a cold reception was Dilip
Kumar's declining popularity. Leader had flopped too earlier but
Naushad's music became fairly popular. Ditto Dil Diya Dard Liya and,
later, Sungharsh (1968) and Aadmi (1968). Ram Aur Shyam (1967) became
a hit but even it did not open to a good crowd. It seems to me that
Naushad suffered mainly because of sinking appeal of stars of the
films he composed for, be it Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, Waheeda
Rehman, or Vyju. But then hot stars like Mumtaz or Hema Malini could
not save the bad music he composed for films like Taangewala (1972) or
Sunehra Sansar (1975).
All said and done, Mala Ji, please forget all those bad reviews of Dil
Diya Dard Liya published then. What do you think about the music now?
Asif
Mala
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mr Asif ,- Mr Afzal Khan had said the right thing when Mother India
was released
music lovers wanted to see the movie because it was Naushad who scored
the music .
The same did not go with DDDL - It is my opinion . The music was just
average , not
captivating as his earlier movies like Dulari , Dillagi , Amar ,
Shabab & Uran Kathola .
His music for Amar and Uran Kathola rightly desrved a FF award but it
was a bad luck .
Regards ,
Mala
maheshks
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ghulam Mohd joined Naushad as his Asstt MD from 1942. I think first
song was Boot karun main paalish by Suraiya in Nai Duniya. Before that
nothing much is known about Naushad's music. Ghulam Mohd left him
after Aan but before that he had already recorded the songs of the
movies released in the year 1952,53 and 54-55 with the MD as Naushad.
The South Indian Music Director Jerry Amaldev was the Asstt MD of
Naushad in the movies Aadmi, Paalki, Dil Diya Dard Liya, Ram aur
Shyam, Sunghursh, Saathi and Ganwaar. He was very bitter about the
working of Naushad. In one of his interviews he had said "Naushad was
my ideal then, I thought he'd do everything connected with the song.
Instead, all he did was to compose the raw melody. Embellishments and
arrangements would be done by various other musicians who handled the
different sections like brass, strings and others. I was even more
disillusioned when I realised it was people like me, kept in the
shadows; who'd write many of the tunes, and Naushad would just pick
from them.
UVR
Afzal saahib,
I espy a certain degree of dissatisfaction in your email vis a vis
Naushad's post-Kohinoor music. Whilst I do agree that Naushad's
musical style underwent a change after Kohinoor, I don't think the
change in quality was as sudden or as drastic as I perceive from your
post. For example, I think Naushad was in fine fettle in Ganga
Jamuna, and in decent, if slightly faltering, form in in Son of
India. I think he recovered quite nicely in Mere Mehboob and, just
like Asif saahib, I quite enjoy the soundtracks of Leader and Dil Diya
Dard Liya. Saaz aur Aawaz and then Ram aur Shyam were probably the
ones that decidedly put Naushad on the downward trend, and by Aadmi he
was all but finished.
In my opinion, it was from Son of India that one begins to hear the
typical "1960s' Naushad"-signature in the musical arrangements. For
example, compare the overall sound of 'dil toRne waale' (Son of India)
to that of "tere husn ki kya taareef karoon" (Leader) to the title
song of Dil Diya Dard Liya. It all sounds like it's from the same
basic 'space-time continuum'. And I mean that in a non-pejorative
sense; I *like* all those songs. And you're free to label me a Rafi-
Naushad-Shakeel fanatic, but I even like "kal raat zindagi se
mulaaqaat ho gayi" and "dil-e-betaab ko seene se lagaana hogaa"!
-UVR.
Sunil Dandekar
Thanks for kick starting the discussion on thus film. However I was
surprised by your comment about Naushad's music failing to inspire. I
have not been able to correctly interpret it.
Does it mean :
1) The songs were not of really good quality?
2) They did not become popular?
3) They did not suit the context in the film?
4) All of the above?
5) None of the above?
In my opinion this is one film where Naushad really bettered his own
formidable standards. IMO each song in this film is a gem in itself.
I do not remember the chronology of films, so I will not be able to
say whether this movie started it, but in this movie I see a welcome
change in Naushad's music. There was a whiff of elaborate music
arrangement behind the songs in this film. When east meets west the
result is always best for my ears.
Like all the old timers Naushad in his early days preferred the indian
style of composing. A rhythm-mostly Indian, a strong melody line,
simple interludes often repeating the lines of the song. The harmony
element, usage of multiple track of instruments etc was mostly
missing.
We can see his two styles in Andaz. If we compare hum aaj kahin dil
kho baithe and (Tod diya dil mera or Uthaye jaa un ke sitam..) we see
the old Naushad and new Naushad juxtaposed. I like the new Naushad.
Some of his later efforts like DDDL , Saathi , Ram aur Shyam are in my
opinion some of his best creations.
When I saw this film , there were two things that mesmerized me. Dilip
Kumar's acting and Naushad's superb music.
When I was watching guzare hain aaj ishque main, I was lost. I did not
know, whether to watch DK's rendering, or get carried away by the
heart wrenching tune or marvel at Rafisaab's voice and range.
In case of Koi saagar, a good tune is made superlative by the
caressing silky voice. The antaras of Dilruba maine tere were much
more captivating than the mukhada. Saawan aaye ya na aaye shows the
glimpses of vintage Naushad.
Phir teri kahaani yaad aayee is one mother of a song. I would not
hesitate to put it near top of Naushad's female songs.
When I saw your post, for few moments I was taken back to those
cherished 3 hours long lost in time. So whatever I wrote is my
reliving of those moments. Thanks.
regards,
Sunil
Sudhir
Liya
failed at box office, primarily because of Dilip Kumar, who meddled
as a director and is reported to have over-taken the job of Kardar
Further
compounding the problems was highly dated story line, which
was not acceptable to even older people. While Dilip and Waheeda
failed in their performace, Pran's performance was very good
Naushad failed to create any memorable tune or tune +
instrumentation.
However, Shkeel's two songs - Guzre Hain Aaj Ishq Mein and Koyi
Sagar Dil Ko Behlata Nahin had good lyrics, specially the 1st one
It is quite rare to find lyrics, incorporating curses (If I can recall
it correctly,
in Urdu poetry they are called: 'Qataa'. The specific couplets are
O Bewafa Tera Bhi Kabhi Toot Jaye Dil
Tu Bhi Tadap Tadap Ke Pukare Ki Haye Dil
Tera Bhi Samna Ho Kabhi Gham Ki Sham Se
Guzre Hain Aaj ......
The other 3 songs in my 'Good Songs List' with curses are
YASMIN - Bechain Karne Wale, Tu Bhi Na Chain
Paye and
SANYASI - O Janewale Matwale, Ja Tu Be Chain Na
Paye
SAAT LAKH (pakistan) - Qarar Lutane wale, Tu
Pyar Ko Tarse
Overall, I would say - Avoid watching the film (even if it costs now
Rs 34 on VCD)
and enjoy the selected 4-5 songs (including - Sawan Aaye Ya Na and
the
'mujra' number sung by Asha
Sudhir
.
naniwadekar
>
> Ghulam Mohd joined Naushad as his Asstt MD from 1942. I think first
> song was Boot karun main paalish by Suraiya in Nai Duniya. Before that
> nothing much is known about Naushad's music. Ghulam Mohd left him
> after Aan but before that he had already recorded the songs of the
> movies released in the year 1952,53 and 54-55 with the MD as Naushad.
>
Allegation that Ghulam Mohammed did a lion's share of the work in
Naushad's films, with Naushad sometimes having nothing to do at all
with the songs, is persistent among music fans who have talked with
people in the film industry. Its sheer weight makes me believe in it.
I follow a simple rule, fairly or unfairly: If a song in a Naushad
film up to Aan is good, it is Ghulam Mohd's. If it is bad, it is
Naushad's. But I had heard that GM joined Naushad's team in 1944 (with
no documentary proof for it), and now 1942 is the date I see. Sharma
Sahab, is there any documentary proof for it, or have you picked up
the date during discussions on the topic? If Naushad is denied full
credit for even Rattan (which I have always thought was totally his,
with no GM on the scene to assist him), his reputation with me takes a
huge hit.
I was talking to a friend in Pakistan (not Urzung Sahab) born in 1930s
and a Naushad song happened to be mentioned. He, too, said: it's a
great song. But who knows whether the credit should go to Naushad or
GM. It wasn't the first time I had heard this whisper.
After Ghulam Mohd left Naushad's camp, Mohd Shafi (not Rafi) was his
assistant for a long time. I had read that Mohammed Ibrahim, GM's
brother, was the assistant for Uran Khatola; HFGK confirms it. Shafi
may well have been part of the team ever since GM left the camp. Shafi
was an arranger much in demand, and very useful to composers to
preferred to have others do their work for them. Shafi was a talented
composer with a special gift for chorus songs, which is on display in
'daaraa' in songs like 'do bol tere meethe meethe' and even more in
the incredible 'aa, nainon men jhzzzoom kar saajanaa'; but he was
nowhere near GM's class. Surprise! Surprise!! while Naushad's songs
for Lata became duller and duller (in 'jaane waale se mulaaqaat' or
'na milta gham' in Amar and several similar songs in Uran Khatola) he
continued to come up with wonderful chorus songs: umangon ko sakhi
(Amar), 'mera salaam le jaa', 'mohe sai.nyaa jee utarenge' (Udan
Khatola), 'matawaalaa jiyaa' and 'dukh bhare din' (Mother India).
During Naushad's war of words with Lata 20-25 years ago when she
strongly refuted some of his tall claims, she said with surprising
restraint and brevity that Naushad's songs' nature was heavily
influenced by which assistant he happened to have. The irony of
quoting Lata with approval within a few minutes of making a post
against her is not lost on me, but here she is making a claim which is
made by so many other people in the know about the film industry.
And Shirish Kanekar has been on record that people in the know say
that Naushad had NOTHING to do with a 1958-ish film beyond lending his
name to it. Mohd Shafi did all the work. Shafi sold tunes to other
composers (names not known to me), too. When he fell on hard times,
hardly anybody cared to remember or help. Mohammed Rafi was one of the
few true friends. One day Rafi visited an ailing Shafi and after Rafi
left, the family found that he had left Rs 1000 under the pillow as a
gesture.
.
The worse Naushad composed, the more steadfast Mehboob (a friend in
Naushad's need, I suppose) remained in his support. But Kardar dumped
him long ago. He gave Naujawan to S D Burman in 1951 (actually I first
checked Naubahar), Dil-e-Naadaan to GM who was anyway in-house and
whom Kardar had probably seen compose beautiful songs for Saigal in
Shah Jehan (no flames, please), a film to Madan Mohan in 1953 which I
am not naming only because I don't think I have heard anything from
that non-Lata MM film (lots of Asha), and KP reminded me today that
Yasmin (C Ramchandra, 1955) was also directed by Kardar.
S U Sunny was K Asif's henchman. And Asif had threatened to beat up
somebody (Saadan Hassan Manto, I think) with Sunny's help. With this
gangster Sunny, our do-no-evil hero Naushad got along beautifully. I
am just saying ...
Afzal Sahab may not respond to the post above (ins sm if you prefer).
But if he is itching to write, here is a (humble) question for him. I
have seen the film-maker's name written in Devnagari as 'kaaradaar'.
How about Abdul Hafeez Kardar, who played cricket for India and
Pakistan? Is it 'karadaar' or 'kaaradaar' ?
- dn
naniwadekar
>
> Afzal Sahab may not respond to the post above (ins sm if you prefer).
> But if he is itching to write, here is a (humble) question for him. I
> have seen the film-maker's name written in Devnagari as 'kaaradaar'.
> How about Abdul Hafeez Kardar, who played cricket for India and
> Pakistan? Is it 'karadaar' or 'kaaradaar' ?
>
I have a nagging feeling that I have read that the film-maker Kardar
and the cricket player Kardar were related. But it could be my memory
playing tricks with me.
- dn
naniwadekar
> after Aan but before that he had already recorded the songs of the
> movies released in the year 1952,53 and 54-55 with the MD as Naushad.
>
I am much more willing to believe that Ghulam Mohd had
composed tunes which for whatever reasons he was content
to leave for Naushad to use. But considering that songs
are generally written to suit particular situations in a film,
the claim that GM recorded songs in 1951-52 which were
used in Naushad films up to 1954-55 stretches
things too far.
- dn
bharat
in Urdu poetry they are called: 'Qataa'. // Sudhir
one good example is "Mere Dushman tu meri dosti ko Tarse"
bharat
Film reviews at the most are like exit polls or weather reports.They
are never true.Many films which reviewer said will not run are block
busters Vice Versa.
bharat
bharat
Mala's main question is why Nutan was replaced.She has only made a
remark about music .Why are we discussing about music and not Nutan's
replacement ?.I have said in past Music is a thing of personal
choice.Very recently Nani said " Ye Zindagi usiki hai " an average
songs !So if Mala says musicf of Leader is bad it is her prerogative
and right.
bharat
bharat
Abdul Hafiz kardar ( cricketer and Politician) and A R kardar were
brothers while Akhtar J Kardar film maker osf palistan were cousins.
Mala
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mahesh - You are simply giving a wrong information about Naushad's
assistants .
Watch the movies / read articles and note down the names and correct
yourself .
I do not wish to give the list film wise . Work out and find out .
Mala
Mala
Dear Sunil , Thanks for your interest in my post .
There are some die hard fans of Naushad who studied
and watched his music from the days of his popularity of Rattan-1944 .
Go and ask them when the moestro's music started to decline .
I am sure most of them will be around 70 plus in age and see for
your self what answer they will give you .
As per many his declining phase started in mid fifties but he keptt
on dragging somehow scoring a couple of good songs on and off in some
movies .
Warm regards ,
Mala
Mala
Well said so - DDDL was indeed Dil diya sardard liya .
Naushad's only good song was the ghazal ' guzre hain aaj ishq men '
The rest is all stale .
Mala
Sunil Dandekar
>
> - Show quoted text -
I wish everybody was as lucky as Naushad ji. Did do nothing. Just kept
on getting assistants after assistants who went on composing tunes
after tune for him and Naushadji went on gathering money and fame.
Of course it begs the question, why were they Naushad's assistants?
Probably we will have to wait for some more reliable sources like
Shirish Kanekar to shed some light on this.
regards,
Sunil
Mala
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sunil - I disagree that Naushad did not do anything . Wee , IMO - he
did
compose and gave notes to his assistants . He made many changes in
arranging when
the song was finalised . He even supervised where each musician to be
seated while
recording a song . The major credit should go to him .
I feel he was unable to cope up with the changing trends of arranging
and
recording technics . The younger musicians were much smarter and he
found himself in a different atmosphere . He was a composer of leisure
-
ie, the studio owner had their own musical staff to whom he was
accustomed .
When the musicans left seeking better opportunities he did not find
enough
time to bring a song to utmost perfection . He was indeed a great
perfectionist .
Warm regards ,
Mala
Afzal A. Khan
> Afzal Sahab may not respond to the post above (ins sm if you prefer).
> But if he is itching to write, here is a (humble) question for him. I
> have seen the film-maker's name written in Devnagari as 'kaaradaar'.
> How about Abdul Hafeez Kardar, who played cricket for India and
> Pakistan? Is it 'karadaar' or 'kaaradaar' ?
> - dn
Nani, yours was a very thought-provoking post and I regret
deleting it here.
I believe the film-maker was born in Lahore and spent much of
his life there making films during the silent era (and even
subsequently). It was only later that he made films in Bombay
and used the services of people like Naushad and Ghulam Mohammed.
He died in Bombay on or around the 1st December 1989.
Abdul Hafeez Kardar, the Pakistan cricketer, was born in 1925.
Thus he was about 21 years younger than the film-maker (who was
born in 1904). But I don't quite know whether they were brothers
or even if they were related at all.
I subscribe to the theory that we should try to write people's
names in the way they themselves spelled the same. So I would
prefer to write the surnames of these two people simply as
"Kardar". Pronunciation-wise, I would say "Kaar'daar" would fit
the bill.
Afzal
naniwadekar
>
> I wish everybody was as lucky as Naushad ji. Did do nothing.
>
Not fair. He did do something, viz. compose some songs, the
bad ones.
>
> Of course it begs the question, why were they Naushad's assistants?
> Probably we will have to wait for some more reliable sources like
> Shirish Kanekar to shed some light on this.
>
You can sure wait for somebody else to tell you the story when
the simpler thing would be to look for similar cases to try to figure
out whether such a thing as a know-nothing thriving can come about and
then make one less intelligent-sounding but empty post on a public
forum by quietly learning your lesson. Practically everybody knows
somebody in his work environment where a person quite high up on the
ladder knows nothing and somehow manages to pull along. Or take the
examples of Kim Il Jong or Rajiv Gandhi. But the power was handed over
to them through family and hence they could run a network of
patronage. How about a self-made Mao Zedong? Now it emerges that all
he did was stay in bed 24*7, never wash his teeth, have 3-4 young
women around him all the time and keep his doctors busy in trying to
prevent exchange of sexual diseases between him and the girls. How did
he manage to set up every man close to him against every other man for
decades, and yet never did any two of them combine successfully to get
rid of the big culprit? I do not know the answer but it does tell me
that such things can happen.
I see these things at a distance and can only try to work out the
truth by assigning probabilities to the stories I hear, and building
up the picture as best as I can. The truth about Naushad (or Mao) is
unlikely to be as unflattering as about a monumentally incompetent,
yet successful, person. But the combined testimony of people like
Jerry Amaldev against Naushad is too strong and persistent to ignore.
- dn
naniwadekar
> naniwadekar wrote:
>
> Nani, yours was a very thought-provoking post and I regret
> deleting it here.
>
Afzal Sahab: Please do not hesitate from posting whatever it is
that you want to say on the topic. Your name ranks very high among the
contributors who give a forum like RMIM the prestige it has come to
acquire. On this, if not on Naushad, most of us will agree. I always
look forward to reading your views, and here is a topic where you are
likely to provide solid inputs, most probably against the grain of my
attitude to Naushad whose fan we know you are, and which can form one
more point of reference which can be used to assess Naushad.
Of course, you choose your language according to your 'agenda'. Do you
write that 'Kardar used the talents of other composers, too, in
addition to Naushad's' or that 'Kardar dumped Naushad'? The first bit
is closer to the truth but the second bit reads better; no? When I
joked that you may not respond, I just meant that some liberty with
presentation, a joke here and there to sneakily strengthen you case,
or known irreconcilable differences of opinion (most people like
Lata's solos in Amar but I am unable to enjoy them) are the points I
am aware of and not much may be gained from rehashing the arguments
about them. It was an attempt to bribe a potentially hostile witness
(named Shri Afzal Khan) into silence, if you will. But I would be most
sincerely happy to read your inputs about Naushad.
.
I was wondering whether I had heard it from you that the film-maker
Kardar and his cricket-playing namesake were related. Thanks for the
clarification. Hopefully it will stay in my memory.
.
- dn
UVR
Why are we discussing about music? A more preposterous question there
could hardly be. My friend, sir, it is a music newsgroup first and
foremost. rec.MUSIC.indian.misc, you know?
-UVR.
maheshks
>
> - Show quoted text -
Naniji,
I have uploaded the video clip of titles of the movie "sanjog"
released in the year 1943. Please see the name of the asstt music
director in the list of asstts. This will show that Ghulam Mohd was
Naushad's Asstt much before Ratan. The clip is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHHPz4BCDzk
Enjoy the voice of teenager suraiya giving playback to Mehtab, who
later on became Mrs Sohrab Modi. Listen to the beat carefully. That is
Ghulam Mohd's trademark.
Sunil Dandekar
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mala,
I prefer to rely on my ears to decide what music I like than a
referendum. IMO appreciation of music does not have any relationship
with physical age.
Let's agree to disagree here. I personally prefer DDDL to Ratan.
regards,
Sunil
Sunil Dandekar
Nice to see that you have not lost the art of being offensive without
half trying.
My dear paragon of intelligence, you are forgetting one simple fact
when you are comparing Mao and Rajiv Gandhi with Naushad. Mao and
Rajiv operated in an area where an objective measure of performance
is not possible.
For a composer the longevity of the song (whether your songs are aired
50 years after the release) and the popularity (number of albums sold
in the first year of release) are two objective parameters. It is
difficult to be a composer without having necessary talent, impossible
to remain a composer for decades and give 100s of good songs.
I suggest that you follow your advice to me of observing from distance
and then assigning probablities. Imagine one billion people aspiring
to be rich and famous. About million of them desirous to work in the
area of music. About 100 of them able to get a foothold in the film
industry and then about 0.01 achieving the immortality of Naushad.
If the probability of a common person becoming a composer like Naushad
works out to be more than 0.001 then I guess you can be another
Naushad, with your supreme intelligence, unbounded knowledge of music
and association with so many buwas and baais.
regards,
Sunil
naniwadekar
> On Aug 20, 7:49 pm, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is difficult to be a composer without
> having necessary talent, impossible to remain a composer
> for decades and give 100s of good songs.
>
So you are in agreement with me but deceiving yourself that
you are making a point. This is what I had written: 'The truth
about Naushad (or Mao) is unlikely to be as unflattering as
about a monumentally incompetent, yet successful, person.'
Naushad was a talented composer but a disproportionate
amount of 'his' output was not his own.
There do exist composers whose talent amounts to less than
zero, yet who remain composers for years/decades and
give hundreds of songs. But that is another topic, for
another day. It has never been my contention that
Naushad was one of them.
- dn
naniwadekar
> S U Sunny was K Asif's henchman. And Asif had threatened to beat up
> somebody (Saadan Hassan Manto, I think) with Sunny's help.
>
On second thought, I think S U Sunny and K Asif were Kardar's
henchmen. (Details in Ambarish Mishr's Marathi book: shubhr
kaahii jeevagheNe, which I don't have with me). Under the
guise of commenting on an artist's (Kardar?) new car, Manto
had made some thinly veiled references to the new woman
in the artist's life. The artist threatened that he would beat
up Manto. Manto demanded, and later got, an apology and
said that he would publish the text of the threat if an
apology was not issued.
- dn
Sunil Dandekar
Please see the part of my post that you have referred and second para
of your post and if you still feel that we both are essentially saying
the same thing then perhaps the self delusion part will be clearer to
you.
"'The truth about Naushad (or Mao) is unlikely to be as unflattering
as about a monumentally incompetent, yet successful, person."
This statement straightened out and laid nicely along the ground means
to me :
"The truth about Naushad (or Mao) is likely to be about an incompetent
and yet successful person' "unflattering" and "monumentally"
cancelling each other.
Now add the last sentence from your previous post
"But the combined testimony of people like Jerry Amaldev against
Naushad is too strong and persistent to ignore"
What do you get?
A person gracefully backing off his previous stand? That is fine,
everybody does that.
For that if you need the crutches of calling my posts intelligent
sounding but empty or my indulgence in self deception, please be my
guest.
regards,
Sunil
Mala
>
> - Show quoted text -
OK - I think the younger generation likes Naushad of 60's .
How do you rate Amar with DDDL ?
Regards ,
Mala
Mala
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you know who were his assistants for films
prior to Sanjog ?
Mala
naniwadekar
> On Aug 21, 11:50 am, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> "'The truth about Naushad (or Mao) is unlikely to be as unflattering
> as about a monumentally incompetent, yet successful, person."
>
> This statement straightened out and laid nicely along the ground means
> to me :
>
> "The truth about Naushad (or Mao) is likely to be about an incompetent
> and yet successful person' "unflattering" and "monumentally"
> cancelling each other.
>
Two negatives cancel each other but if 'unflattering' and
'monumentally' cancel each other and then 'unlikely' changes to
'likely' in your view, you lack the most basic reading comprehension.
The sentence means: The truth is not likely to be 100% unflattering
(all black, unrelieved by any white patches) about Naushad or Mao. It
is likely to be 99/100% unflattering about Kim Il Jong who inherited
his power, but not Mao. Mao must have had some (positive) ability to
do what he did; same with Naushad. Just how unflattering is it about
Naushad? Is it 50% unflattering? 80%? 90%? I do not know. Did he
compose 'uthaye ja unke sitam' fully or partially or was it fully
Ghulam Mohd's? I do not know.
> Now add the last sentence from your previous post
> "But the combined testimony of people like Jerry Amaldev against
> Naushad is too strong and persistent to ignore"
> What do you get?
>
You get the picture of a person who relied unusually heavily upon his
assistants. That is the point Mahesh Sharma first made and it tallies
with what I have heard. I had believed, until 2-3 days ago, that
Naushad deserved the full credit for the great score of Rattan. It is
still possible that he does deserve full credit (coming back to
assigning probabilities to events) but much more possible that he
benefited a great deal from the presence of Ghulam Mohd, the true
genius in the Naushad camp.
Practically every music composer seeks help from various quarters. In
a mehfil, Hridaynath Mangeshkar applauded Late Narayan Naidu's table
playing and informed us that Narayanrao helped him decide theka for
his songs once HM had chosen the taal. He had also recently narrated
how for a song (I forget which) he asked Hariprasad Chaurasia to
compose the interludes. HM's critics accuse him of wholesale theft of
ideas but I am not convinced of the charge for several reasons. C
Ramchandra has narrated how he was dazzled by the theka of a song he
heard fleetingly and chose to use it in (IIRC) 'bholii suurat' in
ALBELA. But none of the established tabla players could create the
desired effect. So they chased down the man (a sweeper) whose theka
had so pleased CR and made him play. The sweeper could not soften his
touch as demanded by the needs of studio recording. So CR made him sit
outside/far-away and that did the trick. But rarely does this 'help'
which composers receive take the form of a composer just staying at
home and merely lending his name because the name 'Naushad' sells, and
leaving it to Mohd Shafi and the team to do ALL the work for an entire
film. I forget the name of the film but Kanekar has named it in his
short article on Shafi, included in 'Yaadon Kii Baaraat'.
Naushad was hungry for publicity through hook or crook. He brazenly
claimed in Uma Devi's presence that he had composed the first song
sung by her in Hindi films. It is well-known that she first sang for
Alla Rakha Qureshi in Wamik Azra. She would later tell in private that
she hated it that Naushad was bluffing but it would not have looked
nice to contradict a man (rather, a puffed-up 'name') of his stature
in his presence.
.
By the way, 'phir terii kahaanii yaad aayii' in DDDL is a wonderful
song. 'koi saagar' and 'saawan aaye' are also beautiful. (I am not
sure I would like to listen to the original 'koi saagar' today because
of my ever-increasing dislike for the singer's style, but can enjoy it
from a local singer.) Not content with getting credit for things he
did not do as music composer, Naushad also liked to claim that he had
written several songs (fully? partially?) for which Shakeel got the
credit. And IIRC 'phir teti kahani' is one such song which is alleged
to have received input from Naushad's pen. While he was sitting at
home, leaving the music department to Shafi, Naushad was presumably
spending time writing songs for Shakeel and also helping out Nehru and
Mao as their speech-writer.
- dn
UVR
It's got nothing to do with "generation", really. I know many in my
generation who prefer 50s and earlier songs to 60s or later.
It's got everything to do with personal preference. I like both Amar-
Rattan Naushad *and* Dil Diya Dard Liya and Leader Naushad. So sue
me!
-UVR.
Mala
I agree upon this , many younsters loving vintage music .
>
> It's got everything to do with personal preference. I like both Amar-
> Rattan Naushad *and* Dil Diya Dard Liya and Leader Naushad. So sue
Leadr !!! is surprising - not a single song worthy of hearing .
' ek shehanshah ne banwa ke haseeb tajmahal ' was the only
good song but people did not like it .
' mujhe duniya walo sharabi na samjho ' Naushad fans were
surprised at this composition .
Anyway , Sir , you have a different taste . There is nothing
wrong with it . BTW - nice to know you are a Naushad fan .
Regards ,
Mala
> me!
>
> -UVR.- Hide quoted text -
Jag Chan
bebd-302...@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
(snipped)
In this serious discussion, pardon me for introducing this humourous piece
to lighten up the situation.
Alexander Woollcott The author of countless wisecracks and witty sayings
(like "All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or
fattening") - Woollcott's best remarks appeared with regularity in New York
City newspaper columns.
Many of the lines attributed to him were actually written by a New York
comedy writer named Irving Mansfield, hired by Woollcott to produce
material for him.
As sometimes happens with writers, Mansfield went through a dry spell,
resulting in a sudden decline in the number of times Woollcott's name was
being mentioned in local papers.
Concerned about the development, Woollcott sent a note to Mans?eld, saying:
Whatever happened to my sense of humor?
(extract from "viva la repartee" by Dr. Mardy Grothe)
Sunil Dandekar
> On Aug 21, 6:43 am, Sunil Dandekar <sunnydande...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 21, 11:50 am, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "'The truth about Naushad (or Mao) is unlikely to be as unflattering
> > as about a monumentally incompetent, yet successful, person."
>
> > This statement straightened out and laid nicely along the ground means
> > to me :
>
> > "The truth about Naushad (or Mao) is likely to be about an incompetent
> > and yet successful person' "unflattering" and "monumentally"
> > cancelling each other.
>
> Two negatives cancel each other
That is what everybody learns in about 5th standard. Good work! Now
please proceed beyond that, from syntax to semantics.
Here are the tips. Monumental is used by you in a superlative sense.
There are different ways superlative is expressed. (He is the best :
He is better than others : Others are *not* as good as him) , (do you
sense three negatives in your sentence? Monumental : Not ordinarily
(incompetent)) then cancel the negatives and see what you get.
> but if 'unflattering' and
> 'monumentally' cancel each other and then 'unlikely' changes to
> 'likely' in your view, you lack the most basic reading comprehension.
> The sentence means: The truth is not likely to be 100% unflattering
> (all black, unrelieved by any white patches) about Naushad or Mao.
It means to me : As compared to monumentally incompetent but
successful people Naushad was (ordinarily) incompetent but successful
>It
> is likely to be 99/100% unflattering about Kim Il Jong who inherited
> his power, but not Mao. Mao must have had some (positive) ability to
> do what he did; same with Naushad. Just how unflattering is it about
> Naushad? Is it 50% unflattering? 80%? 90%? I do not know. Did he
> compose 'uthaye ja unke sitam' fully or partially or was it fully
> Ghulam Mohd's? I do not know.
Why make that assertion only for Naushad? It is true for all the
composers. Including your favourites.
I do not think that anybody on this forum is competent to make
comments on competence of the likes of Naushad. That would be as
presumptuous as Harsha Bhogales commenting on batting techniques of
Sunil (Gavaskar) and Sachin or for that matter Chetan Chauhan. The old
saying about the omelets does not work here. You can definitely like
an omelet or not without being a cook, but cannot comment on the cooks
competence without being one.
>
> > Now add the last sentence from your previous post
> > "But the combined testimony of people like Jerry Amaldev against
> > Naushad is too strong and persistent to ignore"
> > What do you get?
>
> You get the picture of a person who relied unusually heavily upon his
> assistants. That is the point Mahesh Sharma first made and it tallies
> with what I have heard. I had believed, until 2-3 days ago, that
> Naushad deserved the full credit for the great score of Rattan. It is
> still possible that he does deserve full credit (coming back to
> assigning probabilities to events) but much more possible that he
> benefited a great deal from the presence of Ghulam Mohd, the true
> genius in the Naushad camp.
I venture to restate the obvious : creation of a song is a team work.
The singers find the variations that are sometimes better than the
original tune thought by the composer. The rhythmist might come up
with a interesting piece enhancing the beauty of song many fold. And
then all the instrumentalists. Unless we spot a clear case of
plagiarism, it is very uncharitable to deprive the composer of the
credit for the song as it is his theme that is being elaborated by
others. If it is possible that there is a grain of truth in what
others say about Naushad, isn't it equally probable that there is a
grain of jealousy in what they say?
I agree with you that the arrangers/ assistants do make a difference
to the style of a song. I have remarked elsewhere that when OPN got
Sebastian as his arranger/asst his songs lost the rustic feel. But
from that acknowledgement to denial of credit to the composer is a big
step and that is what I baulk at.
> By the way, 'phir terii kahaanii yaad aayii' in DDDL is a wonderful
> song. 'koi saagar' and 'saawan aaye' are also beautiful. (I am not
> sure I would like to listen to the original 'koi saagar' today because
> of my ever-increasing dislike for the singer's style, but can enjoy it
> from a local singer.)
At last we find a common ground somewhere. I think that "Phir teri..."
is a truly outstanding song.
> Not content with getting credit for things he
> did not do as music composer, Naushad also liked to claim that he had
> written several songs (fully? partially?) for which Shakeel got the
> credit. And IIRC 'phir teti kahani' is one such song which is alleged
> to have received input from Naushad's pen. While he was sitting at
> home, leaving the music department to Shafi, Naushad was presumably
> spending time writing songs for Shakeel and also helping out Nehru and
> Mao as their speech-writer.
>
Why not extend the same courtesy to Naushad that you are extending to
Jerry Amaldev and M Shafi?
regards,
Sunil
PS : I find your return very refreshing. RMIM was getting to be a very
drab place.
Sunil Dandekar
I am flattered by that, but I am as young as you seem to be thinking.
And I like songs from KS period to the songs as recent as one from
Delhi .. Tere bin..
regards,
Sunil
Abhay Jain
"maheshks" <emkay...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e80ee0d8-ae00-4c02...@m3g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> Enjoy the voice of teenager suraiya giving playback to Mehtab, who
> later on became Mrs Sohrab Modi. Listen to the beat carefully. That is
> Ghulam Mohd's trademark.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO8hFEZomQ4
Is this the only time, Suraiyya gave playback for soemone other than
herself?
AJ
Abhay Jain
<sanjeev.r...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8dbfbfcf-6839-47b0...@r34g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 19, 12:35 pm, Mala <paulmal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am curious though whether that is a unique statement for DDDL. Did
> Naushad get rave reviews among magazine reviewers and music lovers
> after many or most of his other soundtracks?
> Sanjeev
Naushad was always regarded very highly. He was referred many times
as Sangeet Samrat Naushad in promos and I do not recall anyone else
with hailed so highly for their movies. People did go to see movies
becasue of Naushad. (People aslo went to see movies for SJ and OPN).
Regarding DDDL, I saw it at Bharat talkies in Bhopal and was not impressed
like everyone else.
Dilip Kumar movies never flopped in Bhopal. DDDL had no such luck.
I recall one local fella saying "Yusuf Saheb Jame Nahin Is Baar".
Dilip Kumar and Waheeda Rehman both stunk. Finally, the music
just did not inspire those days. May be I may think they were not so bad.
Overall, I agree with statement that it was "Dil Diya Sardard Liya".
AJ
pdg
> "maheshks" <emkaysha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Suraiyya gave playback for Nimmi (as well as for herself) in Ghulam
Mohd.'s Shama in the song "dhadakte dil ki tamanna"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOe44SXQKew
-Prithviraj
naniwadekar
> On Aug 21, 8:23 pm, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I do not think that anybody on this forum is competent to make
> comments on competence of the likes of Naushad.
>
First, thanks for the kind words. Next, I do not agree with the
comment quoted above. You have stated that Shankar-Jaikishan were the
best of them all. This supposes a level of competence using which
(say) you assign X number of marks out of 100 to S-J and X-Y to
Naushad. If you are competent to do that, others (like me) are also
competent to say that Naushad gets 100-Y marks in my estimate, where Y
is somewhere between 50 to 60 for me, between Af1 and Af2 for Afzal
Khan and between U1 and U2 for UVR.
Besides, there are 3-4 RMIMers quite competent to judge relative
merits of composers and people like me can talk to them to assess
their own level of competence. When Manna Dey met a big group of
RMIMers in 2005, he was quite anxious to know what his interviewer-in-
chief thought of the various composers. That could only be because he
was impressed by the competence on display.
Musicians themselves are double-faced about the issue. If an untutored
listener praises a performance, an artist is wont to say: 'The real
important thing is that people should enjoy the music.' But criticize
a performance, and suddenly the technical know-how of a listener is
questioned. Nor do performers themselves have any identifiable
standard of evaluation.
>
> Why not extend the same courtesy to Naushad that you are extending to
> Jerry Amaldev and M Shafi?
>
I see no reason why there might be a cosmic conspiracy against Naushad
or that 'touch of jealousy' would give rise to so many stories told
off the record about the assistants' importance to Naushad.
Lastly if I insinuate that the credit for Andaaz or Babul may belong
to considerable extent to Ghulam Mohammed, I am also prepared to lay
some of the blame for N's music which I do not like (Baiju Bawra) at
Ghulam Mohammed's door. But I would rather base my criticism of Ghulam
Mohd on films for which he officially scored the music, to be fair to
him, and I think its positives far outweigh the negatives. I also
agree (I think Afzal Sahab has made this point recently on RMIM) that
Naushad was due for a dip in form by 1952-53 because even great
composers tend to have a limited period (10-12 years) during which
they create great music. Anil Biswas was a major exception to this
rule. IMO his first hit was Jagirdar in 1937. In 1954-55 (long after
the great run began), younger brother Sunil Biswas, Anilda's trusted
friend to gauge the quality of his music, was unhappy about Dada's
music for the first time. (This has been quoted before on RMIM from a
book I have not read myself.) I myself happen to agree with Sunil
Biswas, but several RMIMers do not. However that might be, Anil Biswas
shook off the composer's block, and created excellent music, albeit
his assignments were less numerous after 1955 IIRC, right up to his
last film in 1964. He composed some music, mostly for Delhi AIR, past
that point; I have heard good thing about it. He did do some silly
things later (frolicked around on the stage as SaReGaMa judge swinging
his arms aloft like a teenager) but he never stooped to composing
cheap music to remain in the spotlight, like Naushad did a couple of
times after he turned 60.
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
> I also
> agree (I think Afzal Sahab has made this point recently on RMIM) that
> Naushad was due for a dip in form by 1952-53 because even great
> composers tend to have a limited period (10-12 years) during which
> they create great music.
> - dn
In Naushad's case, I don't think I specified the time-frame ("by
1952-53") as you state above. I believe I made a general
observation that a Music Director's creative faculties are likely
to abate somewhat after he has been in the field for an extended
period of time. I doubt if we can use exact mathematics here ---
such as : if x is the year when he makes his debut, his abilities
will "be due for a dip" after x+19 years.
Afzal
naniwadekar
>
> Do you know who were his assistants for films
> prior to Sanjog ?
>
For Nai Duniya, Sharada and Station Master, it is said that G M
Durrani was Naushad's asistant. For films 2 and 3, Durrani did sing a
few songs but I don't know whether documentary proof exists that GMD
was the assistant. For Nai Duniya, Naushad had himself stated that GMD
was his assistant.
In late 1930s Naushad assisted Mushtaq Hussain Khan, Khemchand Prakash
and Gyan Dutt. He probably assisted Jhande Khan as well while gaining
foothold in the industry.
- dn
A S MURTY
Sunilbhai I fully agree that Phir Teri Kahani Yaad Ayee could one of
the top female songs by Naushad. There was a distinctive change in the
tunes by Naushad in the later part of 1960s when compared to those in
the late 1950s and hence the difference in styles. We just cannot
compare the two decades as everything in film making underwent a sea
change and obviously the music too seemed in a newer avatar. All the
songs were lovely in DDDL and the music was excellent. It is one's
perception to like the songs of the 1950s more than those released in
the later half of 1960s. Even in Aadmi, the composition was
superlative - a distinctive Naushad stamp visible.
A S MURTY
Sunil Dandekar
> On Aug 22, 2:09 am, Sunil Dandekar <sunnydande...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 21, 8:23 pm, naniwadekar <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I do not think that anybody on this forum is competent to make
> > comments on competence of the likes of Naushad.
>
> First, thanks for the kind words. Next, I do not agree with the
> comment quoted above. You have stated that Shankar-Jaikishan were the
> best of them all. This supposes a level of competence using which
> (say) you assign X number of marks out of 100 to S-J and X-Y to
> Naushad. If you are competent to do that, others (like me) are also
> competent to say that Naushad gets 100-Y marks in my estimate, where Y
> is somewhere between 50 to 60 for me, between Af1 and Af2 for Afzal
> Khan and between U1 and U2 for UVR.
I think when we are talking about composer A being better than
composer B , we are talking about their respective outputs and not
about their competence as a composer, at least I do. So when I say I
think SJ is the best all I am saying is I like higher proportion of
their songs than any other composer as of now.
> Besides, there are 3-4 RMIMers quite competent to judge relative
> merits of composers and people like me can talk to them to assess
> their own level of competence. When Manna Dey met a big group of
> RMIMers in 2005, he was quite anxious to know what his interviewer-in-
> chief thought of the various composers. That could only be because he
> was impressed by the competence on display.
As I do not know those people it would be wrong for me to comment on
their abilities. You could be right.
But composing music is such a difficult art that unless somebody has
done that himself successfully, commercially and his songs have
survived the test of time, it is difficult for me to accept him as a
person capable of analysing composers like Naushad. Of course all the
above is heavily laced with IMO.
I have watched many test matches and have had lots of discussions on
cricket but that does not equip me to face Malcom Marshall in his
first spell with a new ball , nor does it equip me to comment on
Gavaskar's technique, when there is a rare sneak to the slips. I can
only vaguely sense the greatness of the man, calmly waiting for the
next ball amidst the strangling slip cordon when Marshall is surging
down the track.
> Musicians themselves are double-faced about the issue. If an untutored
> listener praises a performance, an artist is wont to say: 'The real
> important thing is that people should enjoy the music.' But criticize
> a performance, and suddenly the technical know-how of a listener is
> questioned. Nor do performers themselves have any identifiable
> standard of evaluation.
I agree with that.
Mala
>
> - Show quoted text -
Qudos - This is an excellent study of a person who was watching
the changing styles of Naushad'd music .
Aadmi was a great score compared to Ram aur Shyam which had
no stamp of Naushad's music .
Similarly Sohni Mahiwal was better then Kohinoor .
Mala
Mala
Mohd Ibrahim was the right hand man as an arranger
for both
Naushad and Ghulam M . He lost his right hand after loosing Ibrahim .
Shafi was a good sitarist and a poor composer and arranger . Naushad
had to struggle
after loosing Ibrahim . He succeeded in bringing him back for Asif's M-
e-A .
One can notice the difference of his presence .
Perhaps some one in Bombay like Mr Jayaraman can throw more liight on
this
wonderful arranger . Ibrahim made many musicians thrive - data
incomplete .
Mala
UVR
> <sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I think we are confusing the FILM with its music. I am not a fan of
DDDL-the-movie. I saw the film after about 25 years of first hearing
its soundtrack. I had no idea how the songs were picturized or what
its plot (such as it was) was when I heard the songs. I would have no
problem agreeing that it was DDSL. But the songs themselves are much
better (IMO) than the film makes them look (and how exactly is this
different from so many (SO MANY!) other Hindi/Urdu films?). In fact,
the only song that I *dis*like from the film is the Asha "baazaaru"
number.
-UVR.
naniwadekar
Mala: So far you have made 3 statements in this thread which I leave
it to you to reconcile with a few factoids that I am now supplying. My
information comes from a short sketch on Shafi by Shirish Kanekar, who
has recd many inputs from Isaak Muzawar who has been a dedicated
observer of the film industry for over 50 years. I am not insisting
that it is 100% accurate, but I am willing to believe it. If you want
to dispute any information, do mention the reason.
>
> Similarly Sohni Mahiwal was better then Kohinoor .
> Naushad was a perfectionist.
> Shafi was a good sitarist and a poor composer and arranger .
>
Mohd Shafi was an indispensable helper to Naushad for 14 years,
chiefly as arranger. How did a 'perfectionist' like Naushad allow a
'poor' arranger to be part of his team for such a long period of time?
K Asif used to send a car to pick up Mohd Shafi for Mughal-e-Azam.
Here are the songs attributed (not in official documents) by some
insiders to Shafi: 'dhoondho dhoondo re saajanaa', 'do ha.nso.n kaa
jodaa' (both from Ganga Jamna), Lata's 'kaarii badariyaa' (Aadmi) and
the entire music of Sohni Mahiwal, which Naushad did not even touch
because he was not well for a prolonged period.
Assuming that Naushad composed the songs in Kohinoor, which you don't
like as much as Shafi's songs in Sohni Mahiwal, you join the ranks of
people who prefer those songs from Naushad's films which were not
composed by Naushad himself. I guess accepting that your assistant is
better than you and so letting him do ALL the work is also a mark of
perfectionism. Admittedly, Naushad was brilliant at that sort of
thing.
Shafi was nowhere near as good as Ghulam Mohd as composer but he has
5-6 very good songs to his credit from the films for which he scored
music under his own name (Baazooband, Daaraa, Mangu), and that is
something for music fans to be thankful about.
- dn
Sukesh
as to which songs were composed by Jaikishan and which ones by
Shankar. One wonders as to the objective of this research!
1) To prove Jaikishan was better than Shankar or vice versa.
2) To change the credit of a song to Jaikishan or Shankar instead of
Shankar-Jaikishan.
3) whatever.
Thank god that they haven't gone one level down to "discover" which
songs were composed by their assistants - Dattaram and Sebastian. This
thread is doing exactly that in case of Naushad Ali, which in my
opinion is totally uncalled for. Even if song X was composed by
assistant A or by B, so what? The song in its final avatar is result
of the joint efforts of several, but the final stamp of approval of
what should go out in the market is definitely rest with the composer
and he duly gets to take the credit. Isn't this true also in case of S
D Burman too. There is a tendency among many to credit his lively
songs to R D Burman, as if S D Burman himself was incapable composing
such numbers. Naushad or for that matter any composer of note could
not have fooled all the people all the time.
Regards
Sukesh
Sudhir
Aur Nadi
Ka Kinara Ho, was picturized on some other artists, making it a
playback
number for Suraiya
Sudhir
Sudhir
Can you please cross-check some of the source material (books,
articles,
statements by artists etc) and tell us something about film MELA
and
how Wadia brothers (who generally made stunt or fantasy films) got
Naushad as the music director for this film.
I saw the film in early 60s and if can recall it correctly, the poster
had
a line below Naushad's name - 'Coutesey Kardar Films' (or similar
wordings), indicating that Naushad was under the contract of
Abdul Rasheed Kardar and Wadia 'badhus' negotiated with Kardar, who
agreed to let Naushad undertake this assignment. Incidentally, S.U.
Sunny
was the director of this film, who later became a partner with
Naushad. I
think all of Sunny's film (including ones for South Indian Producers)
had
music by Naushad
When, I re-check my Good Songs list, I find that the number of films
and
number of good songs, what Naushad composed for Kardar (under 2
banners - Kardar Production and Musical Films) far exceeds then what
he did for Mehboob Production. A short list is
Sanyasi (1945) - O Jaanewale Matwale + Pyari Koyaliya
Shah Jehan (1946)
Dard (1947)
Dulari (1949)
Dillagi (1949)
Dastan (1950)
Jadoo (1951)
Deewana (1952) - only 2 good songs - Teer Khate Jayenge + Tasveer
Banata Hoon Teri
DDDL (1966)
LPs of all above titles, except Sanyasi and Deewana were released
by HMV, while all
songs of Shah Jehan have been released on Compilation LPs (a tape was
issued many
years later)
After Deewana (1952), I have
Dil-e-Nadan - Ghulam Mohd (3 or 4 songs on compilation LPs)
Yasmin - An EP + a compilations CDs, For 3-4 other songs, I had
to make lot of
efforts - Great musical, but almost forgotten
by HMV
Baap Re Baap - 2 songs on compilation LP
Sudhir
Mala
Here are cent percent truths -
Iibrahim was an arranger and not a MD .
Sohni Mahiwal - Naushad was sick - True
Naushad did not compose anything - False
K Asif sent a car to pick up Shafi - Possible .
BTW - Please note the giant producer director
K Asif never owned a car OR a home of his own ,
through out his life .he lived in a rental flat and travelled
in a taxi .
I hope this helps you .
Mala
harmony
"Mala" <paulm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:57431ca4-5a1a-4e14...@k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> This is one of the movies which was delayed for 7 yrs . AR Kardar
> commenced this movie
> starring Dilip K and Nutan in the lead role in 1958 . After years of
> seperation ARK signed up
> moestro Naushad for composing the music . The production ran into
> trouble and later
> Vijayanthimala was replaced as heroine in place of Nutan .
> The movie did not do well at the box office and Naushad's music failed
> to inspire .
>
> Does any one know why Nutan was replaced ?
> It appears that some of the songs were recorded
> in the late 1950's .
>
> Mala
the story is nutan's husband did not like dilip kumar who had a bad
reputation for hitting on hindu heroines.
harmony
"harmony" <a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a92db11$0$23778$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
but the old man yousaf khan married a very young girl saira bano, young
enough to be his grand daughter, follwoing in the footstep of the model
prophet mohamad.
surjit singh
> "Mala" <paulmal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
If so, how did he work with Kamini Kaushal?
harmony
"surjit singh" <surji...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0539290d-5eac-4ad8...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
----------------------------
i am not sure i follow your question.
explaination came thus: the man is a "devout", "allah fearing" muslim, and
had that islamic streak, and although was very careful about his fanaticism
in the post partitioned india, his religious duty like it is preached and he
understood about hindu "kafirs", specially the women (because that was easy
thing to do), got the better of him often.
UVR
Troll-feeding now, Singh saahib. Seriously?
-UVR.
surjit singh
I agree, please cancel my question.
UVR
> On Aug 21, 11:39 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Leadr !!! is surprising - not a single song worthy of hearing .
> ' ek shehanshah ne banwa ke haseeb tajmahal ' was the only
> good song but people did not like it .
>
I can't believe you're serious about ik shahenshaah ne being the 'only
good song'. What about "tere husn ki kya ta'areef karoon"?
> ' mujhe duniya walo sharabi na samjho ' Naushad fans were
> surprised at this composition .
>
Not the best song in the soundtrack, I agree. But there's hameeN se
muhabbat -- rather nicely sung, IMO (forget the visuals of Dilip
taking a stick to Vyjayanthimala for a minute).
I'm not saying Leader (or Mere Mehboob, or Dil Diya Dard Liya) is the
brightest flower in Naushad's bouquet, but it's not the stinker
everyone here seems to be making it out to be.
> Anyway , Sir , you have a different taste . There is nothing
> wrong with it . BTW - nice to know you are a Naushad fan .
>
> Regards ,
> Mala
Yeah, and I'm glad to know that you think there's nothing wrong with
my musical taste. I'll happily return the favor any day!
-UVR.
Mala
Mr UVR , your taste is good ., perhaps I missed ' hameen se mohobbat
'
from Leader and ' phir teri kahani yaad ayyi ' from DDDL .
Let me tell you the music lovers of my generation found Naushad's
music
a little different then what it was prior to 1960's .
Some of the good albums I like of the 60's are M-e-A , Mere
Mehboob , Paalki , Aadmi , Sathi
and Sanghursh ., this movie had rather unusually loud background
score
but , I think that was probably needed ..
I did not follow his music after Sanghursh .
Warm regards ,
Mala
harmony
why let info emanating from close circles trump your prejudices and
politics, right? no sir, spam is you, and you alone.
------------------------
I agree, please cancel my question.
-------------------------
well, i did not understand your question any way.
maheshks
> "surjit singh" <surjitsi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
In Sharda (1942), Ghulam Mohd was there. Here is an interview of
Ghulam Mohd's sons:
His family’s claim to him introducing the dholak to Hindi film music
with Sharda (1942) is contested by the Sen family (descendants of
percussionist Jamal Sen). But there is no contesting him being the
first ever person to have recorded the dholak in a recording of Begum
Inaayati Dera Waali’s in 1934. His six sons (each a musician in his
own right) have grown adept at the instrument too, prompting Pyarelal
Sharma of Laxmikant-Pyarelal to call their family the dholak gharana.
“Begum Inayaati rejected many tabalchis because they couldn’t give her
the rhythm she wanted for her recording,” recounts Mumtaz Ahmed, the
eldest of his sons. “She was skeptical about my father playing the
dholak, an instrument used only in mujras, instead of the tabla.”
Ghulam Mohammed had been invited to a wedding in Jammu by Uma Dutt
(Shiv Kumar Sharma’s father) where he had seen many women playing
dholaks to perfection as one woman kept rhythm by tapping a small
stone to the ground. To discipline the dholak in similarly to match
the precision of a tabla, he thought, one should use the chhalla (the
metal ring seen on every tabalchi’s fore-finger). “But the dholak was
a different kind of drum altogether,” Mumtaz explains. “So he decided
that the chhalla should be placed on the dholak player’s little
finger. Where it has remained ever since…”
The idea of using the matka, in Sharda (1942), stemmed similarly, from
Ghulam Mohammed’s wanderings through festival celebrations in Punjab
and Multan. “He suggested to Naushad that a soft rounded sound would
match Suraiya’s 14-year-old voice,” says Aziz Mohammed, the second
eldest brother and an acclaimed percussionist in the industry. “And he
knew exactly where to find it.”
The claims of Naushad that the Suraiya's first song was...boot karun
main polish....and that G M Durrani was his asstt in Nai Duniya, as
mentioned in Geet Kosh, also do not appear correct.
That was an era of picture companies/studio system and music directors
were merely employees appointed under a contract. The noticeable thing
is that he was employed by Prakash Pictures in 1940 after he had
scored as an independent music director in Prem Nagar. For Prakash
Pictures he did Mala (1941), Darshan (1941) and Station Master (1942).
Then how he could have scored independently under the banner of Kardar
for Nai Duniya (1942)?
Suraiya's first song was recorded for Station Master of Prakash
Pictures and not for Nai Duniya of Kardar. Here is the true picture
given in the site on Vijay Bhatt of Prakash Pictures:
http://www.vijaybhatt.net/spotlight_phase3.html
"Prakash was a spring-board to many a later day film celebrities. One
day, in 1941, M. Zahur, an actor on the staff of the studio, brought
along with him his eleven-year old niece, who was a good singer.
Naushad who was then serving there, took her test and pronounced her
"very good". She was Suraiya, who was cast as a singing child star in
'Station Master'. A couple of years later, she was going places in
films made by A.R. Kardar and others."
Naushad accepted station master to be the movie for which suraiya sang
the first song here to Hemant Sharma of Outlook India
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?222860
"This is how I first met Suraiya. She used to be in school then and
her grandmother would take her to musicians. Then I met her again
after a few days at Prakash Studio. A film called Station Master was
being made which required a girl to play the role of a younger sister,
so I called for her. She also sang two songs for this film, of which
one of the songs for children became quite popular - yeh rail hamaare
ghar kii dekho. This is where her film-career began.
Anyway, after that came Sardar Sahib's film Nai Duniya. It required a
child-artist to play the role of a shoe-shine kid. I told Sardar Sahib
that instead of a boy, there was this young girl and if I should call
her. He agreed, and so Suraiya was called. She also gave playback for
the film and her song, "boot karun mai polish" was quite a hit. And
then she was taken for Sharda with Mehtab and thus it continued from
thereon".
That was an era of picture companies/studio system and music directors
were merely employees appointed under a contract. The noticeable thing
is that Naushad was employed by Prakash Pictures in 1940 after he had
scored as an independent music director in Prem Nagar.For Prakash
Pictures he did Mala (1941), Darshan (1941) and Station Master (1942).
How he could have scrored independently under the banner of Kardar for
Nai Duniya (1942). A startling revelation by Raju Naushad, his son.
"Naushad then got an offer from Prakash Pictures to compose music for
Mala. The payment was Rs. 600. He worked on a second film with them,
Darshan, for which he was paid Rs 1,200 and a third film Station
Master ,in which Suraiya made her first appearance singing her own
songs. He was paid Rs 1,500 for his work as music director in Station
Master.
Having achieved some success, Naushad was called by Kardar, who had
consistently ignored him earlier. The film was Nai Duniya produced
under the banner of Circo Productions. Kardar, dissatisfied with the
music director he had first engaged, had scrapped the score and wanted
Naushad to rewrite it entirely.
Owing to his contractual obligations, Naushad had to put down a
condition - that his name should not be included among the credits,
and that he would be no more than writing the score. Naushad wrote the
score, sent it to Kardar, who got it rehearsed and recorded by Pandit
Badriprasad at a studio where Naushad was not present at all. He was
paid Rs 500 for this work, and as the release of the film was delayed
far beyond the scheduled date, and his contract had expired, Naushad
got the credit after all as the music director of Nai Duniya".
Mokammel Karim
> On Aug 19, 2:56 pm, maheshks <emkaysha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ghulam Mohd joined Naushad as his Asstt MD from 1942. I think first
> > song was Boot karun main paalish by Suraiya in Nai Duniya. Before that
> > nothing much is known about Naushad's music. Ghulam Mohd left him
> > after Aan but before that he had already recorded the songs of the
> > movies released in the year 1952,53 and 54-55 with the MD as Naushad.
>
> Allegation that Ghulam Mohammed did a lion's share of the work in
> Naushad's films, with Naushad sometimes having nothing to do at all
> with the songs, is persistent among music fans who have talked with
> people in the film industry. Its sheer weight makes me believe in it.
> I follow a simple rule, fairly or unfairly: If a song in a Naushad
> film up to Aan is good, it is Ghulam Mohd's. If it is bad, it is
> Naushad's. But I had heard that GM joined Naushad's team in 1944 (with
> no documentary proof for it), and now 1942 is the date I see. Sharma
> Sahab, is there any documentary proof for it, or have you picked up
> the date during discussions on the topic? If Naushad is denied full
> credit for even Rattan (which I have always thought was totally his,
> with no GM on the scene to assist him), his reputation with me takes a
> huge hit.
>
> I was talking to a friend in Pakistan (not Urzung Sahab) born in 1930s
> and a Naushad song happened to be mentioned. He, too, said: it's a
> great song. But who knows whether the credit should go to Naushad or
> GM. It wasn't the first time I had heard this whisper.
>
> After Ghulam Mohd left Naushad's camp, Mohd Shafi (not Rafi) was his
> assistant for a long time. I had read that Mohammed Ibrahim, GM's
> brother, was the assistant for Uran Khatola; HFGK confirms it. Shafi
> may well have been part of the team ever since GM left the camp. Shafi
> was an arranger much in demand, and very useful to composers to
> preferred to have others do their work for them. Shafi was a talented
> composer with a special gift for chorus songs, which is on display in
> 'daaraa' in songs like 'do bol tere meethe meethe' and even more in
> the incredible 'aa, nainon men jhzzzoom kar saajanaa'; but he was
> nowhere near GM's class. Surprise! Surprise!! while Naushad's songs
> for Lata became duller and duller (in 'jaane waale se mulaaqaat' or
> 'na milta gham' in Amar and several similar songs in Uran Khatola) he
> continued to come up with wonderful chorus songs: umangon ko sakhi
> (Amar), 'mera salaam le jaa', 'mohe sai.nyaa jee utarenge' (Udan
> Khatola), 'matawaalaa jiyaa' and 'dukh bhare din' (Mother India).
> During Naushad's war of words with Lata 20-25 years ago when she
> strongly refuted some of his tall claims, she said with surprising
> restraint and brevity that Naushad's songs' nature was heavily
> influenced by which assistant he happened to have. The irony of
> quoting Lata with approval within a few minutes of making a post
> against her is not lost on me, but here she is making a claim which is
> made by so many other people in the know about the film industry.
>
> And Shirish Kanekar has been on record that people in the know say
> that Naushad had NOTHING to do with a 1958-ish film beyond lending his
> name to it. Mohd Shafi did all the work. Shafi sold tunes to other
> composers (names not known to me), too. When he fell on hard times,
> hardly anybody cared to remember or help. Mohammed Rafi was one of the
> few true friends. One day Rafi visited an ailing Shafi and after Rafi
> left, the family found that he had left Rs 1000 under the pillow as a
> gesture.
> .
>
> The worse Naushad composed, the more steadfast Mehboob (a friend in
> Naushad's need, I suppose) remained in his support. But Kardar dumped
> him long ago. He gave Naujawan to S D Burman in 1951 (actually I first
> checked Naubahar), Dil-e-Naadaan to GM who was anyway in-house and
> whom Kardar had probably seen compose beautiful songs for Saigal in
> Shah Jehan (no flames, please), a film to Madan Mohan in 1953 which I
> am not naming only because I don't think I have heard anything from
> that non-Lata MM film (lots of Asha), and KP reminded me today that
> Yasmin (C Ramchandra, 1955) was also directed by Kardar.
>
> S U Sunny was K Asif's henchman. And Asif had threatened to beat up
> somebody (Saadan Hassan Manto, I think) with Sunny's help. With this
> gangster Sunny, our do-no-evil hero Naushad got along beautifully. I
> am just saying ...
>
> Afzal Sahab may not respond to the post above (ins sm if you prefer).
> But if he is itching to write, here is a (humble) question for him. I
> have seen the film-maker's name written in Devnagari as 'kaaradaar'.
> How about Abdul Hafeez Kardar, who played cricket for India and
> Pakistan? Is it 'karadaar' or 'kaaradaar' ?
>
> - dn
>
> > The South Indian Music Director Jerry Amaldev was the Asstt MD of
> > Naushad in the movies Aadmi, Paalki, Dil Diya Dard Liya, Ram aur
> > Shyam, Sunghursh, Saathi and Ganwaar. He was very bitter about the
> > working of Naushad. In one of his interviews he had said "Naushad was
> > my ideal then, I thought he'd do everything connected with the song.
> > Instead, all he did was to compose the raw melody. Embellishments and
> > arrangements would be done by various other musicians who handled the
> > different sections like brass, strings and others. I was even more
> > disillusioned when I realised it was people like me, kept in the
> > shadows; who'd write many of the tunes, and Naushad would just pick
> > from them.
Nani,
Your posts are very provocative and derogatory and I think you
deliberately put that way.
I have seen in interviews how fondly Naushad remembers the moment he
met GM. Naushad produced 3 movies and his last production effort has
music composed by GM (1958). Even GM’s brother worked for Naushad.
This means that N and GM were not foes.
Hemat kumar made a career out of Nagin but that memorable instrument
in Nagin was played by Kalyanji (earlier Hemant heard Kalyanji playing
that at a program). But we say, Hemant introduced it in HFM. SDB made
a career depending on his assistants – Jaidev and RDB, among others. I
think you know how good Jaidev was as an independent MD. In a 1984
interview in Filmfare, RDB said that SDB used to compose the mukhda
leaving the antara to his assistants. The 4 assistants (RDB mentioned
4 people, may be formally all of them were not assistants) would
compete with each other and SDB would select the one that he thought
was the best. Now what would you say? And do you know that Alfred
Hitchcock, often regarded as the greatest film director of all times,
almost never stood behind the camera (Kurosawa used to work in the
same way, at least in his later years). Do you remember the assistant
directors of those films? No. Why? – you better find the answer.
Director is not there to play a dholok (GM) or a harmonium (Ibrahim in
shabab). Frankly, he is there to ask them to play. Can you say, what’s
the role of asst. music director? If GM, Ibrahim or Shafi did not have
any role to play why would the producer pay for them? If those
assistants were better than the main md, how did they do when they
left Naushad? People remember GM for only one film (Naushad scored 3
songs and the background in Pakeeza) and nobody simply cares about
Shafi or Ibrahim.
Saying something controversial is the best way to draw attention. And
if you say something about the most successful MD, that’s something.
Lata may be the best hfm singer that we have until now, but when she
speaks she hardly speaks the truth/facts. Study her career and life
carefully in an unbiased way, you will get the answer. Uthaye ja unke
sitam was the most important song in her entire career. Naushad fought
with Mehboob for Lata. Rajkapoor did not like Lata earlier but after
hearing her at the recording of Uthaye Ja, he picked her for Barsat.
Mahal happened after Andaz. But Lata did not pay a visit to Naushad at
his deathbed or even after his death. But the very same Lata in 1980
was commenting about Naushad’s greatness. Lata changes her color too
often.
Naushad was the biggest name in the music arena. Naushad could do
without a lata or a rafi (actually he did that quite well). He could
do even with a Tuntun (uma devi). His dependency on rafi, lata and
raaga killed the composer ultimately. He was different from others
because of his free-flowing compositions. As Raju Bharatan says,
others used to impose, naushad composed. When he started imposing, he
was not the Naushad we knew anymore. You did not like Amar or Uran Kha
Tola – whereas someone in this discussion said that Naushad was
unlucky to not to get filmfares for those films. So you know there are
different views.
Naushad was the most influential MD. He built the career of rafi, lata
and suriya. And talat, mukesh and samsad lost the race because they
did not get Naushad. In his whole career mukesh could not break the
frame Naushad built for him in Andaz and Anokhi Ada. Babul remains the
most successful album of talat. Listen to hfm by year, film, you will
get the answer. 6 of Saigal’s 10 most popular songs (in youtube) are
from Shehzahan. Saigal said ‘I wish I met you earlier’. He did not
tell that to GM. So Naushad was able to fool everybody (Saigal, noor,
rafi, mukesh, asha) except lata, right?
Just look at wats happening to AR Rehman. Sonu said that Shankar-Ehsan-
Loy is the best MD at a time when ARR was winning at oscars. Sonu said
that only because of his personal reasons (he was not happy with the
way ARR used him in the song ‘guzarish’). Most of ARR’s fellow MDs
don’t like him. Why? I bet you know that. (its interesting that ARR is
a big fan of Naushad. Actually Naushad renamed ARR from Abdur Rehman
to Alla Rakha Rehman. Also in early 1990s he suggested that ARR should
do film music, not tv commercials.)
I have seen in TV interviews how gratefully Uma Devi remembered her
‘mere naushad saab’. AR Kardar killed Uma’s career (along with her
husband) for singing outside his banner. But the same Kardar let
Naushad to score outside his banner, why? Kardar knew the significance
of Naushad. What Kardar achieved, was mainly due to Naushad’s music.
And he had to return to Naushad again. How many films did he give to
GM? Why he did not give GM more films if GM was such a great MD? When
Naushad left Kardar, success left Kardar.
When DDDL flopped at the box office, Dilip did not take any money.
Naushad and dilip both wanted to help Kardar with DDDL, but that
failed. I find him a very bad filmmaker – definitely not in the league
of Mehboob or Bimal.
I heard that Nargis was considered for mughal e azam, never heard of
Nutan (thank god she wasn’t in MEA). Dilip and Naushad played a role
in bringing in Madhubala. Nutan was supposed to do a film with Dilip
and Rajkapoor but that was ultimately shelved.
UVR
Mokammel Karim
A correction (though my post had a couple of errors):
AR Kardar killed Uma’s playback career for singing outside his
banner (and after marriage, Uma's husband did not allow her to give
playback).
naniwadekar
>
> such numbers. Naushad or for that matter any composer of note could
> not have fooled all the people all the time.
>
He indeed could not, but one cannot accuse him of not trying.
>
> Thank god that they haven't gone one level down to "discover" which
> songs were composed by their assistants - Dattaram and Sebastian. This
> thread is doing exactly that in case of Naushad Ali, which in my
> opinion is totally uncalled for. Even if song X was composed by
> assistant A or by B, so what?
>
I thought of two responses to your line of argument. Here is the
first one. The discussion has trained the spotlight on Naushad
unsentimentally. If opinions are expressed which do not
conform to what Sukesh Hoogan would like to believe, then
just question the very need of the exercise. I cannot agree with you
on that point. It does not work that way. I am very much interested in
knowing subtler details of the way a composer's ensemble works. If
song X is composed by assistant A or B, and we are in position to
discover it, it is a proper topic of discussion. Why would you want
credit to be denied where credit is due? I am a big fan of Khemchand
Prakash. Bulo C Rani claimed credit for some songs in a few films for
which he was KcP's assistant. 'Hamraaz' and his team evaluated the
claim and added it as footnote in the Geet Kosh volumes. That's only
right and proper. Not once have I felt that Khemchand was being denied
due credit. I have mentioned the specific claims made by knowledgeable
sources about Mohammed Shafi's contribution to films officially
credited to Naushad. I haven't heard any claims which are specific to
that level of detail about Ghulam Mohd, but a lot is said in general
terms about just how valuable Ghulam Mohd was to Naushad. I was once
talking to a person who used to present some programmes with Naushad.
Because of the association, I did not talk to him about Naushad. But
he himself broached the topic and said: I am sure you know how Naushad
plays 'humility' card adroitly, but Ghulam Mohd was far more talented
than him. I responded that I did know that Ghulam Mohd was more
responsible for Naushad's fame than the man himself. Once again, I am
not trying to 'prove' the point. You are free to attach whatever
weight you want to the claims about Ghulam Mohd, but there is good
reason that it should be discussed if it helps us assess Naushad using
an important piece of information ('gossip', if you will) about the
way he worked.
- dn
naniwadekar
> On many forums, some members undertake "serious reseacrh" to discover
> as to which songs were composed by Jaikishan and which ones by
> Shankar. One wonders as to the objective of this research!
> 1) To prove Jaikishan was better than Shankar or vice versa.
> 2) To change the credit of a song to Jaikishan or Shankar instead of
> Shankar-Jaikishan.
> 3) whatever.
>
> Thank god that they haven't gone one level down to "discover" which
> songs were composed by their assistants - Dattaram and Sebastian. This
> thread is doing exactly that in case of Naushad Ali, which in my
> opinion is totally uncalled for. Even if song X was composed by
> assistant A or by B, so what?
>
Actually we have devoted lot of space to coming one level down and
discussing which assistant (Ghulam Mohd, Mohd Ibrahim, Mohammed Shafi,
Jerry Amaldev) might have helped Naushad in which manner. I don't
agree that it is uncalled for but I am also definitely interested in
going back up one level and finding out which songs (if any) were
composed by Naushad himself.
- dn
Mala
None of his assistants ever composed songs for Naushad .
All songs were composed by him and him alone .
Did any of his assistants claimed to have done that - NONE .
Both success and failures are his and his alone .
Stay away from speculation .
Mala
Sukesh
We agree to disagree.
Regards
Sukesh
Narsingh
songs apparently credited to Khemchand Parkash. In an interview,
Pyarelal claimed that either he or Laxmikant (as assistants) suggested
the tunes of certain songs credited to Kalyanji Anandji. When asked
which songs, Pyarelal demurred saying that it is not fair to name the
songs because Kalyanji Anandji polished and made subtle changes
(improvements?) in the tunes. It is possible that many assistant music
directors suggested some tunes or modifications in tunes which were
accepted by the music directors. What is wrong with that? My thesis
supervisor made many wonderful suggestions but only my name appears as
the author of the thesis (although I profusely thanked him for his
suggestions in Acknowledgements). I am sure that Naushad accepted
suggestions from his assistants but made sure that the final product
met his standards. There is nothing wrong in accepting suggestions and
ideas from other people. A song in a Hindi movie is the result of
collaboration between the music director, his/her assistants,
arrangers, musicians, singer, and the lyricist even though only the
music director, lyricist, and singer are given the official credit.
Narsingh
naniwadekar
> It is interesting to note that Bulo C Rani claimed credit for some
> songs apparently credited to Khemchand Parkash.
>
Narsingh Sahab: I sense an unease in some of the comments in this
thread which, if true, do not reflect well on Naushad. You don't have
to accept the statements made by Jerry Amaldev, to mention just one
name, but nor can you dismiss them without doing the necessary
homework from your side.
You have given the example of your thesis supervisor making wonderful
suggestions to you but that is part of his job; in Naushad's case it
is the supervised who have helped build the reputation of the
supervisor to an uncommon extent. There are several degrees in which a
composer may receive help. Help which does not warrant specific
acknowledgement; help which warrants it; help which makes it a joint
effort (to the point where the thesis does not remain yours alone but
becomes a joint effort by Narsingh Agnish and the supervisor); and
help where the main name plays smaller role a.k.a. 'Naushad
territory'.
It has been said repeatedly in this thread that a song is a joint
effort. Did Bulo C Rani not know this? He must have helped Khemchand
in the making of several songs, yet he claimed credit only for a few
of them where the main creative impulse was his. (For specific
instances of songs composed by Bulo C Rani, dig out Khemchand's
filmography from rmim archives and also check Jnan Dutt's films for
RANJIT Studio, and check the relevant pages in HFGK.) While I have not
heard specific claims on Ghulam Mohd's behalf -- it would surely be
fun to search for such stories if I had had the time for it -- it is
taken for granted by several people whom I know and whose opinion I
respect that Ghulam Mohammed was the real genius who helped create
somebody else's legend while creating his own legend, too, on the
basis of his independent assignments. Mohd Shafi composed songs not
just for Naushad but other composers bought tunes from him.
Apparently, he had warned his wife and daughter that they should never
talk about these songs because he had forfeited his claim to them when
he accepted money in exchange. By the way, to the story that Mohd Rafi
left money under his pillow (Rs 10,000, not one thousand as I had
mentioned earlier) during his last days, I should add that the Shafi
family told Rafi that the family would like to keep Rafi's love but
return the money, and did return the money.
There is some more dirt to be dished out about Naushad's
vindictiveness, but that's a topic for another day pending some more
substantiation.
> I am sure that Naushad accepted suggestions from
> his assistants but made sure that the final
> product met his standards.
>
That is neither here nor there. Let us assume that Mohammed Shafi
indeed did all the work for Sohni Mahiwal, as has been claimed. You
may dismiss the gossip linking Shafi as the main person behind as just
gossip (okay, but Naushad's devotees should not expect others to agree
unless they come up with solid reasons), but making sure 'that the
final product met his standards' is very easy to do and does not carry
any weight. We do not know whether our dear friend Naushad accepted to
lend his name to it reluctantly or eagerly. But let's be charitable to
our friend and further assume that he 'accepted responsibility for the
music', whatever it means (as if he had much choice having taken on
the assignment when sick). Let's also assume that he made sure that it
'met his standards'. What of it? That does not make it his work if he
just evaluated it and with/out a few suggestions, approved it. If a
few suggestion by Shafi do not make a Naushad song Shafi's (which I
agree with), a few suggestions by Naushad do not make a Shafi song
Naushad's.
- dn
kcp
Do we have cases where Lyricists have had assistant/s ? I am not
talking about controversial cases and cases where one music director
left/died and the other took over. Purely assistants ?
kcp
> On Aug 19, 10:38 am, AR <aji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 19, 10:34 am, Mala <paulmal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > This is one of the movies which was delayed for 7 yrs . AR Kardar
> > > commenced this movie
> > > starring Dilip K and Nutan in the lead role in 1958 . After years of
> > > seperation ARK signed up
> > > moestro Naushad for composing the music . The production ran into
> > > trouble and later
> > > Vijayanthimala was replaced as heroine in place of Nutan .
> > > The movie did not do well at the box office and Naushad's music failed
> > > to inspire .
>
> > inspire. Could you elaborate? I believe that Rafi's song "koi
> > saagar..." is popular even today.
> > "Saawan aaye ya na aaye" is included in typical compilations of
> > classical Hindi songs, and it's a beautiful Sarang, with rich
> > interludes, very well sung as well. And I treasure "kya rang-e-
> > mehfil.." as well, for its unusual tune, and an unusual one for Lata.
> > Come to think of it - here's a film where Naushad (of all people)
> > gives the more conventional "saawan aaye ya na aaye" to Asha, and a
> > cabaret like song to Lata.
>
> > > Does any one know why Nutan was replaced ?
> > > It appears that some of the songs were recorded
> > > in the late 1950's .
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Filmfare and Screen etc I am sure you will find the answer .
> Many music lovers felt Naushad was not at his best .
> Mala
Reviews of Baburao and those in Filmfare were sometimes very
ridiculous. I would not go by them at all. Having said that, these 3/4
magazines, those days were quite instrumental in shaping up the minds
of many people. "Popular even today" is really we have to look for,
IMHO.
Narsingh
I find it interesting that you refer to me as Narsingh sahab just as
you objected to being called UVR ji!
For all RMIMers, I am just "Narsingh"; that is a long enough first
name, let us not make it any longer.
Narsingh
kcp
> I venture to restate the obvious : creation of a song is a team work.
> The singers find the variations that are sometimes better than the
> original tune thought by the composer. The rhythmist might come up
> with a interesting piece enhancing the beauty of song many fold. And
> then all the instrumentalists. Unless we spot a clear case of
> plagiarism,
Interesting. What if the singers or the rhythmists or the
instrumentalists ( or the sound designers/engineers of today, who do
more than 75 % jobs of the MDs of tofday ) come up with "clear case of
plagiarism" and the main music director is unaware of it ? Whom do we
attribute that to ?
kcp
>
> There is some more dirt to be dished out about Naushad's
> vindictiveness, but that's a topic for another day pending some more
> substantiation.
We can definitely vomit by just looking at your dish of dirt, Nani.
The so called "homework" you did as of today, on the subject of
Naushad, is not convincing. Thanks.
kcp
kcp
> Mr Naniwadekar:
>
> Can you please cross-check some of the source material (books,
> articles,
> statements by artists etc) and tell us something about film MELA
> and
> how Wadia brothers (who generally made stunt or fantasy films) got
> Naushad as the music director for this film.
>
Has anybody ( Marathi reading RMIMERs ) who have participated in this
thread, read the autobiography of Naushad - Daastaan-e-Naushaad ? All
these relations, with respect of each film is discussed in details.
His relations with GM also. Just that his "musical" anecdotes are
lesser in numbers. I will try to remember and point out all the facts
( if you do not consider Naushad to be "a fraud that he is", as per
Nani" . Ofcourse he can/will deny them !! ) related to this thread,
lateron, if I get time.
naniwadekar
>
> Has anybody ( Marathi reading RMIMERs ) who have participated in this
> thread, read the autobiography of Naushad - Daastaan-e-Naushaad ? All
> these relations, with respect of each film is discussed in details.
> His relations with GM also. Just that his "musical" anecdotes are
> lesser in numbers. I will try to remember and point out all the facts
> ( if you do not consider Naushad to be "a fraud that he is", as per
> Nani" . Ofcourse he can/will deny them !! ) related to this thread,
> lateron, if I get time.
>
Shri Pingale: Naushad had as tenuous a connection with reality
as do you, but please post Naushad's stories since they have
value. It is to be hoped that you will be able to grasp
sentences with tolerable fidelity to what they were meant
to convey. When a composer sits at home, leaving the studio
to Ghulam Mohd and Mohd Shafi, 'musical' anecdotes will
inevitably be lesser in numbers, but let's read the 'view
from home' by all means, and how Saigal expressed (out
of everybody else's earshot, of course) that if only
he had met Naushad two months before he actually did,
his life would have increased by 50 years.
Just as Naushad had things in common with K C Pingale,
he had a thing in common with Indira Gandhi, too. The
thing not in common was that Naushad could fool many
people all the time and create a lily-white image
when he was a crook quite often; Indira-ji came to
be seen as evil to the point that her ability was
overlooked. Unlike Naushad, most of the competence
in Indira's camp came from her own ability. The
common factor is that their utterances were reliable indicators. If
Mrs Gandhi said that a minister would stay, he would soon go. The more
enthusiastically Naushad talks about 'his' composition, the greater
the doubt that it was probably Ghulam Mohd's or Shafi's or Amaldev's.
Or even Anupam Ghatak's; more about it in a moment.
.
Here is a short list of what we know and what Naushad said or did not
say.
1) Naushad's 'mohe panaghat pe' is a straight lift. What does his book
say about it? Govindrao Tembe had written that he used to feel
embarrassed when praised for Sangeet Maanaapamaan's music because he
had composed only one original tune for the drama. Singers were often
told (demonstrated) the original composition on which a natya-geet was
based. Did Naushad ever feel any unease at leaving one entire film to
Mohammed Shafi?
2) The thread started with a mention of Naushad's 'Dil Diya Dard
Liya'. The song 'saawan aaye' in it is a straight lift from a 1930s
film-song in 'Saadhanaa' (MD: Anupam Ghatak) with the same beginning:
'saawan aaye yaa na aaye'; see giitaayan for the full lyrics. Any
acknowledgement of the steal by Naushad in the book or elsewhere? (For
that matter, Vasant Desai, usually a very honest fellow, talked about
divine inspiration descending on him at a temple for 'ghanashyam
sundara' when it is a lift from a song which can be heard in
Brahmachari, 1937/8, composer Dada Chandekar (Marathi version): 'bagh
rajanii saralii, bhaarataa'. (Bharat, the (dark) night is over.)
Vasantrao Desai had contributed some music to the Brahmachari camp
anonynmously (being tied to PRABHAT by a contract), but if the 1930s
idea was his, he should have said so, instead of talking about
receiving inspiration in a temple in 1950s. C Ramchandra based 'dheere
se aajaa rii akhiyan me.n' on a nonfilm song of 1930s which I had
posted on the net long ago, though CR did make valuable additions and
changes to the tune. The 'inspiration' was never acknowledged AFAIK.)
3) Naushad brazenly claimed in Uma Devi's presence that she first
sang for him. She would later tell in private that she remembered very
well that her first film song was composed by Alla Rakha Qureshi but
it would not have looked nice to contradict a senior artists like
Naushad in public.
4) There was nobody, but nobody, among seniors, friends, well-wishers,
who alerted Saigal about the dangers of his addiction. He himself was
sensitive enough to feel ashamed to appear in public under the
influence, but that does not matter, too. All that matters is that
Naushad, who had himself said that he did not much dare to say things
to Khemchand when his assistant, 'allegedly' talked to Saigal about
it. It is supposed to elevate Naushad above everything else in
Saigal's life.
5) Naushad had claimed that 'jab dil hii toot gayaa' was played during
Saigal's funeral upon the singer's wish. Lata, who had no reason to
feel intimidated by Naushad's stature a la Uma Devi, countered: 'were
YOU present to verify Naushad's claim?' I will supply the translation:
'I know Naushad is (he was still alive when the whole episode took
place) a liar. You know he is a liar. Why take his grandiose claims
seriously?'
6) Lata was so overcome when recording 'mohe bhool gaye saawariyaa'
that she was crying. Lata remembers no such thing and says she does
not even like the song (which is indicative of her good musical
taste). If at all she blew her nose the day she recorded the song, she
says she might have had sinus infection that day.
Most of these stories have fallen in my lap without even seeking them.
I think half an hour with an insider would yield a dozen more such
stories.
.
Even after the most hostile person mercilessly tracks down people in
Naushad's musical camp for stories against him, I am sure Naushad
would emerge a fairly competent composer, far less reliant on his
assistants than Sonia Gandhi is on Roman script for her Hindi
speeches. But his cronies refuse to even consider the possibility that
the whispers against him do not necessarily come from people who have
any personal ill-will towards him. Right now, acolytes of Kishore
Kumar and Rafi are being rightly criticized for their mindless hero-
worship in a long rmim thread. But Naushad's cronies sometimes make
Sai Baba devotees look like a picture of sanity.
.
- dn
maheshks
Naniji,
Refer to point no.5 above and Lata's remarks on the claim of Naushad
about Jab dil hi toot gaya was being played during Saigal's funeral.
This point was asked by Shri K N Rao, the famous astrologer and the
former Director General (Comptroller General of India) to Mrs. Beena
Chopra, Saigal's daughter. He has made a mention of that here:
http://www.journalofastrology.com/article.php?article_id=201
Some events of the life of K.L. Saigal was collected after my meeting
Mrs. Bina Chopra, (she died in October 2001) the only surviving
daughter of K.L. Saigal in April 2001.
i. His father Shri Amir Chand Saigal was a tehsildar in Jammu and
after retirement settled down in Jullundhar and died after 1933.
ii. His mother, Shrimati Kesari Devi was a housewife and a good singer
herself, fond of bhajans which K.L. Saigal learnt from her right from
his childhood.
iii. They were five siblings, brother, brother, sister, K.L. Saigal
and a brother.
iv. K.L. Saigal married in 1935 (Venus-Sun)
v. He had three children, a daughter (3 May 1937) daughter (18 January
1941) and a son.
vi. After his fame as a singer spread, the great classical music
singer, Ustad Fayyaz Khan , tied a ganda, the thread round his wrist
to accept him as his disciple. It could be after 1935.
vii. Died on 18 January 1947. (Venus-Sat-Rahu) Early in the morning,
Saigal breathed his last. He was 42 when he died on 18th January 1947
in Jullundhar, his hometown. Naushad, the music director, has made a
wrong claim that jab dil hi toot gaya was played during his funeral
procession. Smt. Bina Chopra told me that it was wrong. When in
Bombay, K.L. Saigal's health had deteriorated; he expressed his wish
to meet a saintly person in Jullundhar while his family members
insisted on his being treated by Bombay's doctors. K.L. Saigal then
told them that they could take the doctor they trusted most to
Jullundhar.
naniwadekar
>
> Refer to point no.5 above and Lata's remarks on the claim of Naushad
> about Jab dil hi toot gaya was being played during Saigal's funeral.
> This point was asked by Shri K N Rao, the famous astrologer and the
> former Director General (Comptroller General of India) to Mrs. Beena
> Chopra, Saigal's daughter. He has made a mention of that here:
>
> http://www.journalofastrology.com/article.php?article_id=201
>
> Saigal breathed his last. He was 42 when he died on 18th January 1947
> in Jullundhar, his hometown. Naushad, the music director, has made a
> wrong claim that jab dil hi toot gaya was played during his funeral
> procession. Smt. Bina Chopra told me that it was wrong.
>
Thanks, Sharma-ji. Actually you started all this discussion rolling.
Let's meet some day in Mumbai for 'ek shaam, Naushad ke assistanton ke
naam'.
One quick clarification. As I had stated, Vasant Desai had contributed
some songs anonymously (for the film Chhaya, in 1936/7) to the
Brahmachari camp (Master Vinayak's camp). I don't think he had
composed anything for the film 'Brahmachari' itself.
The original of 'ghanashyam sundara' is a beautiful short (70-75
seconds) song in Brahmachari. The original of 'dheere se aajaa rii' is
a fairly non-descript song, which starts 'baharaat aalyaa jaaii-
juii' (aangan me.n phuul khile), sung by Azambai Pisal, but the 78 rpm
does not mention the composer's name. It was copied by Annasaheb
Mainkar for a 1941 film 'paayaachee daasii', using very similar word
'angaNaat aalyaa jaaii-juii', sung by Saraswati Rane. Its Hindi
counterpart, Charanon Kii Daasii, had a corresponding song 'ambuwaa pe
chhaaii anokhii bahaar' which I have failed to get a copy of. I think
HFGK is wrong about its singer (Vanmala) and the credit should go to
Saraswati Rane only for the Hindi song as well. In both cases, it was
Lata's wizardry which elevated the melody to a surreal experience, far
far beyond the merit of the original song.
.
- dn
kcp
> Saying something controversial is the best way to draw attention.
Hahahahaha - ROFTL. Just read your paragraph quoted below
kcp
> On Sep 5, 5:05 am, kcp <kcpin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Has anybody ( Marathi reading RMIMERs ) who have participated in this
> > thread, read the autobiography of Naushad - Daastaan-e-Naushaad ? All
> > these relations, with respect of each film is discussed in details.
> > His relations with GM also. Just that his "musical" anecdotes are
> > lesser in numbers. I will try to remember and point out all the facts
> > ( if you do not consider Naushad to be "a fraud that he is", as per
> > Nani" . Ofcourse he can/will deny them !! ) related to this thread,
> > lateron, if I get time.
>
> to Ghulam Mohd and Mohd Shafi, 'musical' anecdotes will
> inevitably be lesser in numbers, but let's read the 'view
> from home' by all means,
Please do read the book. Your eyes will pop out.
> and how Saigal expressed (out
> of everybody else's earshot, of course) that if only
> he had met Naushad two months before he actually did,
> his life would have increased by 50 years.
Naushad did not say that.
> Here is a short list of what we know and what Naushad said or did not
> say.
>
> 1) Naushad's 'mohe panaghat pe' is a straight lift. What does his book
> say about it? Govindrao Tembe had written that he used to feel
> embarrassed when praised for Sangeet Maanaapamaan's music because he
> had composed only one original tune for the drama. Singers were often
> told (demonstrated) the original composition on which a natya-geet was
> based. Did Naushad ever feel any unease at leaving one entire film to
> Mohammed Shafi?
Based on a Raag ? Naushad is famous for that :P
>
> 2) The thread started with a mention of Naushad's 'Dil Diya Dard
> Liya'. The song 'saawan aaye' in it is a straight lift from a 1930s
> film-song in 'Saadhanaa' (MD: Anupam Ghatak) with the same beginning:
> 'saawan aaye yaa na aaye'; see giitaayan for the full lyrics. Any
> acknowledgement of the steal by Naushad in the book or elsewhere? (For
> that matter, Vasant Desai, usually a very honest fellow, talked about
> divine inspiration descending on him at a temple for 'ghanashyam
> sundara' when it is a lift from a song which can be heard in
> Brahmachari, 1937/8, composer Dada Chandekar (Marathi version): 'bagh
> rajanii saralii, bhaarataa'. (Bharat, the (dark) night is over.)
> Vasantrao Desai had contributed some music to the Brahmachari camp
> anonynmously (being tied to PRABHAT by a contract), but if the 1930s
> idea was his, he should have said so, instead of talking about
> receiving inspiration in a temple in 1950s. C Ramchandra based 'dheere
> se aajaa rii akhiyan me.n' on a nonfilm song of 1930s which I had
> posted on the net long ago, though CR did make valuable additions and
> changes to the tune. The 'inspiration' was never acknowledged AFAIK.)
Raag again ?
>
> 3) Naushad brazenly claimed in Uma Devi's presence that she first
> sang for him. She would later tell in private that she remembered very
> well that her first film song was composed by Alla Rakha Qureshi but
> it would not have looked nice to contradict a senior artists like
> Naushad in public.
Wait for my post in a few minutes.
>
> 4) There was nobody, but nobody, among seniors, friends, well-wishers,
> who alerted Saigal about the dangers of his addiction. He himself was
> sensitive enough to feel ashamed to appear in public under the
> influence, but that does not matter, too. All that matters is that
> Naushad, who had himself said that he did not much dare to say things
> to Khemchand when his assistant, 'allegedly' talked to Saigal about
> it. It is supposed to elevate Naushad above everything else in
> Saigal's life.
Naushad just told Sailgal when Jab Dil Hi Toot Gaya was recorded and
he made Saigal hear the take, without "kaali paach" - He said that the
Saigal-friends who said that Saigal's voice was best when he took
"Kaali paach" were not real friends. Thats it.
>
> 5) Naushad had claimed that 'jab dil hii toot gayaa' was played during
> Saigal's funeral upon the singer's wish. Lata, who had no reason to
> feel intimidated by Naushad's stature a la Uma Devi, countered: 'were
> YOU present to verify Naushad's claim?' I will supply the translation:
> 'I know Naushad is (he was still alive when the whole episode took
> place) a liar. You know he is a liar. Why take his grandiose claims
> seriously?'
>
It was there in Saigal's will. Do you have a copy ?
> 6) Lata was so overcome when recording 'mohe bhool gaye saawariyaa'
> that she was crying. Lata remembers no such thing and says she does
> not even like the song (which is indicative of her good musical
> taste). If at all she blew her nose the day she recorded the song, she
> says she might have had sinus infection that day.
WHAT ?
>
> Most of these stories have fallen in my lap without even seeking them.
Nani, you need to clean one day your "lap"
> I think half an hour with an insider would yield a dozen more such
> stories.
Hmmmm...and then ?
deleted the rest of the Bakwaas
kcp
The information you got about DDDL is wrong. The movie's muhurat was
shot on 26th Oct 1962 at Andheri Studios. Kardaar wanted to make a
film on Umar Khayyaam. But that was a big project and he wanted to
make a smaller budget film, before that, with DK. He started a new
company called K Productions and decided on DK and WR. So 1958-Nutan-
etc is not true. Afzal saab and UVR are right about the voice quality
of Rafi or Naushad's music-quality, after Kohinoor.
Naushad says that all the songs of DDDL were hits those days.
Kalyan,
Kardaar offered Naushad partnership in his production company. This
was done to reduce Naushad's increasing friendship with Sunny. Naushad
was furious with Kardaar's offer of partnership in lieu of stopping
work with Sunny. Seeing Naushad's anger, Kardaar withdrew and still
made Naushad the partner for "Daastaan". Parallely Sunny started
"Baabul". Both were completed and released at the same time. But the
shows of Baabul were disturbed by the goondaas and they had the
posters torn !! Though Naushad did not take the name of Kardaar
directly in the book, it was quite obvious, when he said that Kardaar
and he stopped due to some misunderstandings.
Asif,
Kardaar had some health issues during the making ( neck pain ) and he
could not concentrate copletely on DDDL. Thus everybody on the sets
helped him and it became one big "khichadi". Naushad had suggested to
make a sad end instead of a happy one. The film was not liked by
public. They changed the end later but it was not useful then and it
was a flop.
Mahesh,
GM Durrani brought Suraiyya to Naushad and she sang her first song for
"Station Master" - Yeh rail hamaare ghar ki bhaage tez hawaa se
Before that, Naushad composed for films like "Sunahri Makdi" (1937 -
where his salary was Rs 40 - he composed 1 song - Kyon aye dil-e-
deewaana hai akal se begaana ), 1 song in "Kanchan" - Kaun gali gaye
shyaam. Then came the 8 songs in "Premnagar" ( on recommendation from
D N Madhok ). Then came a flop film "Maala". Then came 13 songs for
"Darshan". and finally his first Silver Jubilee - "Station Master".
Nayi Duniya was released on 21st Aug 1942, after a few weeks of
release of Station Master.
Gulaam Mohd was not the assistant of Naushad for Nai Duniya. As Nani
confirmed, Naushad had taken the assistance of Durrani. Interesting
story of Kardaar's request to keep the name of the original music
director of Nai Duniyaa - Mr BadriPrasaad - some other time.
Sudhir,
At the time of Hindu-Muslim tensions ( Indo-Pak war ) Naushad used to
meet Sunny regularly , who was staying with the Wadia's. Story writer
Aazam Baazidpuri and Shakil also used to be at such meets. Sometimes
Wadia's also used to be there. Once Naushad had heard from a Pandit in
Lucknow a sentence "Bete ye duniya Mela hi to hai" . Naushad got the
germ of the story. While in one such meet he recited his rough story
to everybody. Wadia and his wife Ila also loved the story and decided
to make a film. Wadias had sold their studio where V Shantaram had
built Rajkamal, Then Wadia suggested to start Mela at Famous Cine Lab,
which was almost complete.
Shri Nani,
Sometimes I really wonder if you have read the wonderful Autobiography
of Naushad. You will change all your views about his skills at music
direction. Even if after reading it you are claiming what you have
cooked in the dirty dish, then all the best to your "homework".
Gulam Mohd joined Naushad as an assistant when Kardar Productions was
established. Thus it should be during Sharada (Mahesh already
confirmed) or Namaste.
Naushad CLEARLY says the following "mala Gulaam Mohammad ni anek vela
charcha karun kaahi goshti suchavilya aani tyaancha me avalamb kela
ahe he saangaayla mala kaslaach sankoch vaatat naahi. Tyaanni
suchavilelya anek goshti saphal zhaalya. Vay aani kala ya dohonmadhe
te maazhyapeksha mothe hote, pan mala te guru maanat hote ha tyaancha
mothepana hota". In fact Naushad has praised GM quite a lot in one of
the chapters. He explains his recommended films to GM and how GM
prospered from an assistant to a full fledged md.
I do not know about Naushad Assisting Gyan Dutt
Its a pity if Umadevi said something bad about Naushad. It was she who
came to Mumbai from Delhi and had no money or assistance. Naushad had
seen in her, his days of struggle and after her pleading and crying,
gave her a superhit song in "Naatak" - Dilwaale Jal Jalkar. It is
highly possible in film industry that Wamik Azra was released before
Naatak.. On the other hand, it is highly possible that UmaDevi did not
tell Naushad that she had already done Wamik Azra and begged for a
break. Also if there were any "personal" misunderstandings between
them, later, then I am not aware of them. We believe UmaDevi and not
Naushad ? Hahahaha its a joke.
The chapters on DDDL and "Saaz Aur Sanam" were mixed in the book and
so I could not find any references of "Saawan Aaye". Anyways that song
is based on classical raaga and it would be no surprise if some other
song, prior to that, sounded the same.
Praises from Zhande Khaan, Badriprasad, Khemchand Prakash are nothing
but achievement of a genius. Brickbats in the form from closed circle
of gossip finders "stories", is nothing but digging and eating stale
shit. Talking with the musical circles ( especially the musicians, Tom
and Jerry and the likes, who are maha-frustrated souls on the earth,
in terms of their commercial-failures in the industry ) and forming
opinions and passing it as facts for future generations, is nothing
but a pure idiotic timepass, IMHO.
So start believing these great artists, who have attained the status
by sheer hard work and dedication. There is something in them ,
divine, in their character and nature, in front of which we must bow
down. Learn from them something. Learn the good things and leave the
bad, because you will reach nowhere ( no matter how much you beat your
chest to unearth the "truth" by references from a bunch of monkeys ),
believe me.
ALL THE BEST.
Mokammel Karim
'Mohe panghat se' and 'sawan aye' are straight lifts - from what
song? (are you talking about the tunes or the lyrics?). if u have
found the tunes similar, that may be due to the inherent raaga.
What I know is 'mohe panghat se' and 'jo main janati (shabab)' are the
lines of hazrat amir khasru. naushad acknowledged that. i wont be
surprised if 'sawan aye' is also taken from such poems/verses.
Did C Ramchandra acknowledge that anarkali's 'a jane wafa' is a lift
from some music that western circus groups used to play? Did SDB ever
say how many of his good and great songs are direct lifts from
tagore's/nazrul's/bengali folk/western songs?
Did RDB ever acknowledge the influence of tagore's and western tunes
on his compositions?
Did Salil ever say a word about all those symphonies and european folk
songs?
NEVER.
maheshks
Naniji,
There is a book "behind the curtain: making music in Mumbai's film
studios" by Gregory D Booth. On reading this, a conclusion can be
easily
drawn that :
Music Director is basically a brand name and it carries a brand value.
The song is manufactured by A (the team) and marketed by B (the music
director).
surjit singh
>
> 5) Naushad had claimed that 'jab dil hii toot gayaa' was played during
> Saigal's funeral upon the singer's wish. Lata, who had no reason to
> feel intimidated by Naushad's stature a la Uma Devi, countered: 'were
> YOU present to verify Naushad's claim?' I will supply the translation:
> 'I know Naushad is (he was still alive when the whole episode took
> place) a liar. You know he is a liar. Why take his grandiose claims
> seriously?'
Well, was Lata present at the funeral? Why should I believe her?
In any case, one does not have to be present.
One can hear whispers from 'insiders' in hushed tones and believe
those :)
naniwadekar
>
> 'Mohe panghat se' and 'sawan aye' are straight lifts - from what
> song? (are you talking about the tunes or the lyrics?). if u have
> found the tunes similar, that may be due to the inherent raaga.
>
The tunes are not just similar, but straight lifts. That the
songs may have reference to a raag is red herring. There are
hundreds of songs in Piloo and Pahadi and Bhairavi; that
does not make them a 'lift'. 'Mohe panghat pe' and 'saawan
aaye' had the same starting words in the original and also
the exact same tune, at least for the mukhada.
I am not against adapting or even lifting songs; more still,
I am thankful that I got to hear some works which would have
remained unknown to me because they were adapted for Hindi
films. But the original should be duly acknowledged. In Salil's
case Gautam Choudhury, Prithviraj Dasgupta and others could
tell us whether he acknowledged the debt or not. If he did
not, that would be wrong, too. But I don't see how that
reduces Naushad's responsibility to acknowledge an inspiration.
Two wrongs do not a right make.
Even when a tune is re-modelled, like 'dheere se aajaa rii
akhiyan me.n' or 'ye zindagi usi ki hai', it remains a fact
that the idea was not wholly original. Hridaynath Mangeshkar
is quite consistent in pointing out the original source
whenever there is an inspiration behind his songs. Many
a composer has pointed out that the bottomless supply
of folk-tunes in our culture has supplied them with ideas
for several songs. That's fine. As Neville Cardus once
memorably observed: Only a second-rate composer can
*avoid* being derivative.
> Did C Ramchandra acknowledge that anarkali's 'a jane wafa'
> is a lift from some music that western circus groups
> used to play?
>
'aa jaane wafaa' is Basant Prakash's composition. Khemchand
Prakash was going to compose music for the Anarkali theme.
His ill-health and death forced a change and his brother
started work and composed 'aa jaane wafaa'. But it was felt
that the project called for a more accomplished composer and
C Ramchandra stepped in. He liked 'aa jaane wafaa' and
used it in the film.
- dn
maheshks
>
> - Show quoted text -
Naniji,
I have the amubaa pe aai (not chhaai) anokhi bahaar sung by saraswati
rane from
the movie charnon ki daasi. The leading female singer for charnon ki
daasi was saraswati rane and avinash vyas (yes the man who was MD) was
the leading male singer. Crediting songs to vanmala is a mistake.
naniwadekar
>
> Well, was Lata present at the funeral? Why should I believe her?
> In any case, one does not have to be present.
>
That is correct. A person present at Talat Mahmood's funeral
(his son, no less) told me how he was not cremated but
buried. I wasn't present and the only option seemed
to make a trip to Indian Express and see whether their
archives can be dug out. I decided it wasn't that
important. Besides I was reliably told that the story
was true; I shared the information privately with some
friends and honoured the request that the info be kept
private. Once again, without me lifting a finger,
a translation of the original article that he was indeed
cremated was posted on RMIM within an year or two. The
story was back in the public domain. To be fair to Khalid
Mahmood, I can imagine why he might want the story not
rehashed. Now that Saigal's daughter has herself rubbished
Naushad's claim about Saigal's funeral, you could start your
enquiries about whether *she* was present for the funeral.
.
Sajjad had coined a joke about the song. He believed that
the letter 'r' is lucky in the film industry and pointed
at 'mangeshkar', 'rafi', 'burman'; he also regretted that
he had dropped the 'Qureshi' bit from his 'Sajjad Qureshi'
name. He wondered how Naushad Ali became famous sans both
the talent and the 'r'. It's double-r bizarre but even Ghulam
Mohd had no 'r' in his name, nor Mohd Shafi, now that we
are at it. Don't you know Saigal's lament, Sajjad would ask.
"Saigal wailed: tab dil hii toot gayaa, jab Naushad ke
liye gaanaa padaa".
.
- dn
Mokammel Karim
> The tunes are not just similar, but straight lifts. That the
> songs may have reference to a raag is red herring. There are
> hundreds of songs in Piloo and Pahadi and Bhairavi; that
> does not make them a 'lift'. 'Mohe panghat pe' and 'saawan
> aaye' had the same starting words in the original and also
> the exact same tune, at least for the mukhada.
I think you did not get me. the mukhada (not the 1st line, the entire
mukhada) of 'mohe panghat se' is by hazrat amir khasru. shakeel wrote
the antara. [so the song that is 'original' (as u think), may be the
original amir khasru creation or some 'first-grade' composer who did
not acknowledge.] the same is true for 'jo main janati' (entire
mukhada from amir khasru). naushad acknowledged that. for 'sawan aye'
the same can be the fact.
> I am not against adapting or even lifting songs; more still,
> I am thankful that I got to hear some works which would have
> remained unknown to me because they were adapted for Hindi
> films. But the original should be duly acknowledged. In Salil's
> case Gautam Choudhury, Prithviraj Dasgupta and others could
> tell us whether he acknowledged the debt or not. If he did
> not, that would be wrong, too. But I don't see how that
> reduces Naushad's responsibility to acknowledge an inspiration.
> Two wrongs do not a right make.
so you are fine if gautam or prithviraj reduce salil's burden? why not
salil himself? what about SDB/RDB? naushad acknowledged.
> Even when a tune is re-modelled, like 'dheere se aajaa rii
> akhiyan me.n' or 'ye zindagi usi ki hai', it remains a fact
> that the idea was not wholly original. Hridaynath Mangeshkar
> is quite consistent in pointing out the original source
> whenever there is an inspiration behind his songs. Many
> a composer has pointed out that the bottomless supply
> of folk-tunes in our culture has supplied them with ideas
> for several songs. That's fine. As Neville Cardus once
> memorably observed: Only a second-rate composer can
> *avoid* being derivative.
According to Neville's view, we can say that sajjad is a second-rate
composer!!!
> > Did C Ramchandra acknowledge that anarkali's 'a jane wafa'
> > is a lift from some music that western circus groups
> > used to play?
>
> 'aa jaane wafaa' is Basant Prakash's composition. Khemchand
> Prakash was going to compose music for the Anarkali theme.
> His ill-health and death forced a change and his brother
> started work and composed 'aa jaane wafaa'. But it was felt
> that the project called for a more accomplished composer and
> C Ramchandra stepped in. He liked 'aa jaane wafaa' and
> used it in the film.
Khemchand died in 1950, Anarkali released in 1953. Its hard to
believe, since anarkali was a film that was made quickly (giving no
potential chance to MEA). So, there may be a different story.