Kishore Kumar: For what its worth.
Tablaguy
I have been noticing a feud going on in this NG about kishore Kumar and
his background. Couldnt keep quiet any more. For what its worth here are
the facts about Kishore Kumar's Musical backgroud.
Kishore Kumar had a solid classical background of 7 years from Ustad
Jamiruddin Khan (Bombay- kirana). Manna De was also a disciple of the same
Ustad. Listen to some of his earlier raga based songs like Koyelia Kuk
sunaye (also sung by Begum Akhtaar).
regards,
TG
Rajan P. Parrikar
The following article is in praise of Kishore Kumar. Ravi Krishna
is requested not to read it.
In article <19970529193...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
Tablaguy <tabl...@aol.com> wrote:
>Kishore Kumar had a solid classical background of 7 years from Ustad
>Jamiruddin Khan (Bombay- kirana).
This is a good piece of fiction. Kishore Kumar had zought, zero, zifr,
shoonya, nought, nAda training in classical music and didn't know
Sa from Ga from Pa. There are three sources for my claim. One, the slew
of articles in print. Two, his videotaped dialogue with Lata where he
tells her "Tum to jaanti ho mujhe yeh Sa Re Ga Ma kuch nahiN aataa."
Three - and this is a boast - I asked him myself. There is another
piece of evidence too - his singing itself! None of this, none of this
diminishes his incredible artistry and musical genius one bit. Au
contraire. That he could do what he did is an inspiration!
r
Chetan
tabl...@aol.com wrote:
>Kishore Kumar had a solid classical background of 7 years from Ustad
>Jamiruddin Khan (Bombay- kirana). Manna De was also a disciple of the same
>Ustad. Listen to some of his earlier raga based songs like Koyelia Kuk
>sunaye (also sung by Begum Akhtaar).
If this is true, it is very hard to believe. Listening to KK, I cannot say
that he could hold on to his sur. Somebody trained for *7 years* should be
able to judge whether he is hitting his notes correctly ! And, sadly, this was
not true of KK. He was indeed a great singer when it came to light music. But
(IMO) he was not a "pucca" singer in the classical music sense. Another "IMO"
- there were other singers in Hindi filmdom who were nearly pucca.
Brings us to the all-important question - what is it that makes a singer
click? Can think of a handful of criteria :
* Voice quality - Plays a far more important role in light music than in the
classical music. Kishore scored extremely high in this category.
* The ability to convey emotion - This is perhaps the most important criterion
for a film singer. Once again, Kishore was among the best as far as expressing
emotions is concerned.
* Vocal range - A secondary requirement for a film singer.
* Hitting the right notes - The most basic criterion for a classical singer
would seem to be far less crucial for a film singer. Otherwise, more than half
of all Hindi filmi songs would be fit for the garbage bin the minute they are
recorded !
* Versatility - The ability to sing songs for different type of
scenes-on-the-screen is very important for a film singer. Kishore-da was
really good in this department.
Just a passing thought : If KK did indeed learn for 7 years. KKKlan's
Brahmastra "He was so good inspite of not being trained" goes poof :) Okay
guys, now you have the Green signal to start the "yuddha kii aglii kisht..."
C
Ravi Krishna
Chetan wrote:
> If this is true, it is very hard to believe. Listening to KK, I cannot say
> that he could hold on to his sur. Somebody trained for *7 years* should be
> able to judge whether he is hitting his notes correctly ! And, sadly, this was
> not true of KK. He was indeed a great singer when it came to light music. But
> (IMO) he was not a "pucca" singer in the classical music sense. Another "IMO"
> - there were other singers in Hindi filmdom who were nearly pucca.
What the f*** you know about music. Kishore Kumar could hold on to any
sur , much
better than Rafi or SPB or Yesudas , Suresh Wadkar. You take a crash
course on music
before you come up with such uninformed statements.
> * Vocal range - A secondary requirement for a film singer.
KK has the best range in the film industry. Listen to his 'gems' like
"apni to jesse
tesse (Lawaris) or "yeh jawani , hai diwani" (Jawani Deewani). What
incredible range
he displayed.
> * Hitting the right notes - The most basic criterion for a classical singer
> would seem to be far less crucial for a film singer. Otherwise, more than half
> of all Hindi filmi songs would be fit for the garbage bin the minute they are
> recorded !
Yup , Kishore use to hit the right notes for all types of tough songs
which an overrated
singer like Lata will also find it difficult to match.
---------------------
S. Ravi Krishna
r_kr...@hotmail.com
---------------------
PS: if it is **STILL** not clear to any moron , lemme make it clear - I
am sarcastic
in this post. ( sorry Chetan , if inadvertenly I offended you).
I AWAIT TO BE FLAMED.
Ravi Krishna
In article <19970529193...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, tabl...@aol.com says...
>
>I have been noticing a feud going on in this NG about kishore Kumar and
>his background. Couldnt keep quiet any more. For what its worth here are
>the facts about Kishore Kumar's Musical backgroud.
>
>Jamiruddin Khan (Bombay- kirana). Manna De was also a disciple of the same
>Ustad. Listen to some of his earlier raga based songs like Koyelia Kuk
>sunaye (also sung by Begum Akhtaar).
AND PIGS FLY.
Rajiv Shridhar
Chetan (cvin...@telogy.com) wrote:
: Brings us to the all-important question - what is it that makes a singer
:
: * Voice quality - Plays a far more important role in light music than in the
: classical music. Kishore scored extremely high in this category.
:
: * The ability to convey emotion - This is perhaps the most important criterion
: for a film singer. Once again, Kishore was among the best as far as expressing
: emotions is concerned.
: * Vocal range - A secondary requirement for a film singer.
:
: * Hitting the right notes - The most basic criterion for a classical singer
: of all Hindi filmi songs would be fit for the garbage bin the minute they are
: recorded !
Warning...This is a long post.
Though I agree with the first part of the above criterion, I am in
somewhat less agreement with the second part of the statement. I think Hindi
movie-makers, and most of the listening public, considers "hitting the right
notes" much much more important than conveying the emotion and sentiment of
the song. The history of Indian (including Hindi) movie music is fraught with
scores (numberwise; no pun intended) of singers and songs that have succeeded
because they were and are able to hit the right notes (even if not all the time)
with utter disregard to the other, and to me undeniably more important, business
of conveying the meaning and sentiment of the lyrics of the song.
Those singers that _have_ succeeded in singing these "light" songs
while maintaining some semblance of trueness to the song, its import, and its
significance in the larger picture (pun intended :)) have always been subject
to charges of "Hah! He/she can't even hit the right notes!" from the puritans.
Lata, with her "perfect" rendition of songs, and her well-deserved reputation
for being able to record a song on the first take, is well within the first
category I describe above. Classical training, vocal range, voice quality
(at least until recently) and ability to hit all the right notes and scales
notwithstanding, I feel her willingness to be part of the song and make the
song part of the panorama that defines the movie, severely lacking. (Not that
I do not admire her versatility and her nightingale-like voice, I do; but my
like/dislike is not the point here.... I hope).
A number of singers today aspire to be squarely in the corner Lata is
(rendition-wise). A number of singers of yore didn't. Talat Mehmood's abilities
are often decried because he can't capture the "perfectness" other singers
can. Mukesh was often described as too "simplistic" and "limited". Manna Dey
escapes some of this criticism because of his classical prowess.
Asha was and is not as capable of the perfection that Lata is, but has oodles
of "soz" in her voice. So did Geeta Dutt, as did Noorjehan. Today, there are
gaggles of female singers in Bollywood that try, like little children trying
desperately to please their doting parents, to render songs in child-like
voices, being desperately careful to hit all the right notes. The result
is, except for in situations where the song is intended to be for a teenager
or a waif-like innocent heroine, pathetic!
Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was, like Asha,
inescapably limited by the lack of classical perfection, but had the
uncomparable ability to put "dard", "soz" and "pyaar" into a song. That he
sometimes took 12 takes to get caught once again at a particularly awkward
transition from antara to another antara is of absolutely no concern to
a listener of his final product. That he sometimes pulled his phrases so
that he seemed to be catching up with the rhythm rather than keeping perfectly
with it, is of no consequence to one who wants the emotion and the "feeling"
of a song to wash over him or her and enthrall him (or her).
The magnificient Mohd. Rafi once said to today's Poornima (I *might* be
mistaken in the younger singer's name, but it's irrelevent to this
discussion.)
"Sing from your heart. Don't worry about anything else. If you are making
a mistake, the MD will correct you if he needs to. Just put your heart
into every song you sing, and it will come out good."
A very powerful statement from a very powerful "hasti" in film music....
that is sometimes ignored by even his supporters. (here on RMIM too :-))
Even classical music, I venture to say, does not demand that the singer
have a beautiful voice, and hit _all_ the right notes _all_ the time.
Neither does Western classical music, nor for that matter do other forms of
music everywhere.... folk music, rock and roll etc. etc.
Film music, particularly Hindi film music, demands much more. The songs
are simpler, the verbal calisthenics a singer needs to perform are less
rigorous, and therefore much more subject to analysis and criticism. The
industry, and people like us, demand singers that can _sing_ the song,
never mind make the listener _live_ the song for those few minutes. And
we're all worse off for the experience, I submit.
Finally,
When a Lata song comes on, I marvel at the way she makes the song
sound. (Every song she sings.....).
When a slow Kishore song or slow Rafi song comes on, I close my eyes,
and for a few minutes I am part of the song. (Not every song, but with
the ones that do, I'm more than happy.)
Don't even mention Kumar Sanu.
Best regards,
Rajiv
PS: (1) Flames welcome. Please direct c/o RMIM.
(2) Needless to say (and partly because Ikram liked it so much):
"Please assume, without loss of generality, the presence of opinion"
--
rajiv shridhar
ra...@coe.neu.edu
Gam nahii.n likhuu.N kyaa mai.n Gam ko, jashn likhuu.N kyaa maatam ko?
jo dekhe hai.n mai.nne janaaze, kyaa unako baaraat likhuu.N?
- javed
Nitin Sharma
Rajiv Shridhar (ra...@coe.neu.edu) wrote:
:
: the song. The history of Indian (including Hindi) movie music is fraught with
: scores (numberwise; no pun intended) of singers and songs that have succeeded
: because they were and are able to hit the right notes (even if not all the time)
: with utter disregard to the other, and to me undeniably more important, business
: of conveying the meaning and sentiment of the lyrics of the song.
And as example, you cite Lata M!
: Lata, with her "perfect" rendition of songs, and her well-deserved reputation
: for being able to record a song on the first take, is well within the first
: category I describe above. Classical training, vocal range, voice quality
: (at least until recently) and ability to hit all the right notes and scales
: notwithstanding, I feel her willingness to be part of the song and make the
: song part of the panorama that defines the movie, severely lacking. (Not that
Could you elaborate your point some more, preferably with examples?
The only negative point I can imagine about Lata's singing for films
is this: in many films, the heroine is just an ordinary character, the
girl-next-door kind (you get the picture?). Its hard to imagine that
such ordinary character so consistently in all films has such an
outstanding, almost flawless, singing ability as Lata's. Doesn't look
kind of realistic. But most film-makers dont put that much premium on
realism in their films anyway..
:
: Even classical music, I venture to say, does not demand that the singer
: have a beautiful voice, and hit _all_ the right notes _all_ the time.
A 'pleasant' voice (in the traditional sense), all right.
But can you think of *just* one classical singer, who even occasionally
would sing wrong notes, and still be acclaimed in the community of
classical musicians?
At least in hindustani classical music, hitting a wrong note in a
raag composition is a worse crime than blasphemy.
-nitin
Arunabha
>:
>Warning...This is a long post.
So much the better .
>Though I agree with the first part of the above criterion, I am in
>somewhat less agreement with the second part of the statement. I think Hindi
>movie-makers, and most of the listening public, considers "hitting the right
>notes" much much more important than conveying the emotion and sentiment of
>the song. The history of Indian (including Hindi) movie music is fraught with
>scores (numberwise; no pun intended) of singers and songs that have succeeded
>because they were and are able to hit the right notes (even if not all the time)
>with utter disregard to the other, and to me undeniably more important, business
>of conveying the meaning and sentiment of the lyrics of the song.
>Lata, with her "perfect" rendition of songs, and her well-deserved reputation
>for being able to record a song on the first take, is well within the first
>category I describe above. Classical training, vocal range, voice quality
>(at least until recently) and ability to hit all the right notes and scales
>notwithstanding, I feel her willingness to be part of the song and make the
>song part of the panorama that defines the movie, severely lacking. (Not that
>I do not admire her versatility and her nightingale-like voice, I do; but my
>like/dislike is not the point here.... I hope).
>
>A number of singers today aspire to be squarely in the corner Lata is
>(rendition-wise). A number of singers of yore didn't. Talat Mehmood's abilities
>are often decried because he can't capture the "perfectness" other singers
>can. Mukesh was often described as too "simplistic" and "limited". Manna Dey
>escapes some of this criticism because of his classical prowess.
>
>Asha was and is not as capable of the perfection that Lata is, but has oodles
>of "soz" in her voice. So did Geeta Dutt, as did Noorjehan. Today, there are
>gaggles of female singers in Bollywood that try, like little children trying
>desperately to please their doting parents, to render songs in child-like
>voices, being desperately careful to hit all the right notes. The result
>is, except for in situations where the song is intended to be for a teenager
>or a waif-like innocent heroine, pathetic!
I'm sure this must be your limited opinion. I wonder how many could fault
Asha B. and Talat Mehmood on their ability to render classically based songs
to "perfection" . I can well imagine people preferring Lata in terms of her
"oh so silken voice , nightuingale of India ..." and countless other attributes
, as what appeals to a particular person is highly individual. But how one
can fail to appreciate Asha's capability for classically strong songs, I am at
a loss to follow. Her virtuosity surely is not a matter of personal taste- there
are som many songs where she is explicitly classical, but more importantly, as
far as light numbers is concerned, she always infuses some difficult sequences
of notes into seemingly simple songs, which sound non-classical and at the same time
are pleasing because they are non-trivial. It is possible that L. might have sung
more class. nos. than A.because of the bias in the industry nad several other matters
which I am not familiar with. But others have agreed with me that Asha's more
robust voice is more capable of classical numbers than lata. That is def. my
(IMHO), and i prefer a. wholeheartedly to L. While others are free to disagree
on who is "better" to them , I think in terms of classical rendition ability
Lata is at best Asha's equal , if not worse. (If you ever hear Aaj kuni tari
yaawe , by Asha , you'll forget every aspersion you cast on A.'s class. ability)
>Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was, like Asha,
>inescapably limited by the lack of classical perfection, but had the
>uncomparable ability to put "dard", "soz" and "pyaar" into a song. That he
>sometimes took 12 takes to get caught once again at a particularly awkward
>transition from antara to another antara is of absolutely no concern to
>a listener of his final product. That he sometimes pulled his phrases so
>that he seemed to be catching up with the rhythm rather than keeping perfectly
>with it, is of no consequence to one who wants the emotion and the "feeling"
>of a song to wash over him or her and enthrall him (or her).
I'm sure KKKlaners will raise sufficient voices in protest, so i won't
comment on the latter half of the above para. But to compare Kishore w/ Asha
as being "inescapably limited byu the lack of class. perfection" " is a grave
injustice. Any one who hears Asha without a prejudiced ear should be able to tell the difference in terms of class.
ability.
I cannot help reflecting that if all MD's had the same view as you, there
would have been a highly momotonous film industry with the entire cassette of
a film sung by Lata alone. A situation with no variety and people would have got dead sick
of Lata's voice even before it rteached its present "dasha". (the way i am now)
>
>Even classical music, I venture to say, does not demand that the singer
>have a beautiful voice, and hit _all_ the right notes _all_ the time.
A word of warning: don't ever dare say that to some hardcore classical singer.
They are temperamental people and for them, rightly so, "Sur aur sur sadhna
ek pesha nahin, balki eeshwar hai" . As someone rightly said, therefore,
such a casual statement would be tantamount to blasphemy - your life
might be in peril , depending upn the guy whom ypou confront with this :-)
I know my ustaad wuld be livid abut it, for sure.
>Film music, particularly Hindi film music, demands much more. The songs
>are simpler, the verbal calisthenics a singer needs to perform are less
>rigorous, and therefore much more subject to analysis and criticism. The
>industry, and people like us, demand singers that can _sing_ the song,
The only point where film singing makes more of a demand is in the diction
and enunciation, as also the mood of the song and the kind of emotion one has
to convey. I do agree with you on this point.
>
>When a Lata song comes on, I marvel at the way she makes the song
>sound. (Every song she sings.....).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Did I miss somethiong. or are you contradicting yourself ? I thought
acc. to you the way she makes the song sound does not integrate with the movie.
I disagree THERE; def. Lata sang good numbers till late 60's . After that her voice
underwent some sort of phase transition , and it sounded like a laboured effort
as an example , contrast O sajna barkha bahar aai , with any song she sang in the
70's - take even the good songs of abhimaan - there is a distinctive change. After
that it steadily got (a) deteriorated and (b) overhyped.
(But for me it will always be Asha and none else)
>
>
>As for your comment : "Please don't even mention K. Sanu ", it will not
surprise me in the least (though it will ire me) if tomorow Asha B. is compared
in class. ability with K. Sanu/ Alka Yagnik / and even worse, possibly
mediocre singers that will appear tomorow. They will all say knowingly, " well,
asha was good at cabaret nos. and so is this star- Ms. Renu ! from Jhumri talaiyya)
So she is the future Asha ,..... . Then these knowledgeable people will
click their tongues knowingly, and wistfully sigh............
Well, of course there will never be another lata,...."
I am resigned to people's choice being L., though I think that the min. we should
accept is that Asha is not her junior in mus. ability, albeit in age.
>
>PS: (1) Flames welcome. Please direct c/o RMIM.
"Jo chingariyan bhadkaaii tumne, unka anjaam "Flames" nahin, ek "Towering Inferno " hoga.
:-)
Arunabha.
Arunabha
>:
>Warning...This is a long post.
So much the better .
>Though I agree with the first part of the above criterion, I am in
>somewhat less agreement with the second part of the statement. I think Hindi
>movie-makers, and most of the listening public, considers "hitting the right
>notes" much much more important than conveying the emotion and sentiment of
>the song. The history of Indian (including Hindi) movie music is fraught with
>scores (numberwise; no pun intended) of singers and songs that have succeeded
>because they were and are able to hit the right notes (even if not all the time)
>with utter disregard to the other, and to me undeniably more important, business
>of conveying the meaning and sentiment of the lyrics of the song.
>Lata, with her "perfect" rendition of songs, and her well-deserved reputation
>for being able to record a song on the first take, is well within the first
>category I describe above. Classical training, vocal range, voice quality
>(at least until recently) and ability to hit all the right notes and scales
>notwithstanding, I feel her willingness to be part of the song and make the
>song part of the panorama that defines the movie, severely lacking. (Not that
>I do not admire her versatility and her nightingale-like voice, I do; but my
>like/dislike is not the point here.... I hope).
>
>A number of singers today aspire to be squarely in the corner Lata is
>(rendition-wise). A number of singers of yore didn't. Talat Mehmood's abilities
>are often decried because he can't capture the "perfectness" other singers
>can. Mukesh was often described as too "simplistic" and "limited". Manna Dey
>escapes some of this criticism because of his classical prowess.
>
>Asha was and is not as capable of the perfection that Lata is, but has oodles
>of "soz" in her voice. So did Geeta Dutt, as did Noorjehan. Today, there are
>gaggles of female singers in Bollywood that try, like little children trying
>desperately to please their doting parents, to render songs in child-like
>voices, being desperately careful to hit all the right notes. The result
>is, except for in situations where the song is intended to be for a teenager
>or a waif-like innocent heroine, pathetic!
I'm sure this must be your limited opinion. I wonder how many could fault
Asha B. and Talat Mehmood on their ability to render classically based songs
to "perfection" . I can well imagine people preferring Lata in terms of her
"oh so silken voice , nightuingale of India ..." and countless other attributes
, as what appeals to a particular person is highly individual. But how one
can fail to appreciate Asha's capability for classically strong songs, I am at
a loss to follow. Her virtuosity surely is not a matter of personal taste- there
are som many songs where she is explicitly classical, but more importantly, as
far as light numbers is concerned, she always infuses some difficult sequences
of notes into seemingly simple songs, which sound non-classical and at the same time
are pleasing because they are non-trivial. It is possible that L. might have sung
more class. nos. than A.because of the bias in the industry nad several other matters
which I am not familiar with. But others have agreed with me that Asha's more
robust voice is more capable of classical numbers than lata. That is def. my
(IMHO), and i prefer a. wholeheartedly to L. While others are free to disagree
on who is "better" to them , I think in terms of classical rendition ability
Lata is at best Asha's equal , if not worse. (If you ever hear Aaj kuni tari
yaawe , by Asha , you'll forget every aspersion you cast on A.'s class. ability)
>Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was, like Asha,
>inescapably limited by the lack of classical perfection, but had the
>uncomparable ability to put "dard", "soz" and "pyaar" into a song. That he
>sometimes took 12 takes to get caught once again at a particularly awkward
>transition from antara to another antara is of absolutely no concern to
>a listener of his final product. That he sometimes pulled his phrases so
>that he seemed to be catching up with the rhythm rather than keeping perfectly
>with it, is of no consequence to one who wants the emotion and the "feeling"
>of a song to wash over him or her and enthrall him (or her).
I'm sure KKKlaners will raise sufficient voices in protest, so i won't
comment on the latter half of the above para. But to compare Kishore w/ Asha
as being "inescapably limited byu the lack of class. perfection" " is a grave
injustice. Any one who hears Asha without a prejudiced ear should be able to tell the difference in terms of class.
ability.
I cannot help reflecting that if all MD's had the same view as you, there
would have been a highly momotonous film industry with the entire cassette of
a film sung by Lata alone. A situation with no variety and people would have got dead sick
of Lata's voice even before it rteached its present "dasha". (the way i am now)
>
>Even classical music, I venture to say, does not demand that the singer
>have a beautiful voice, and hit _all_ the right notes _all_ the time.
A word of warning: don't ever dare say that to some hardcore classical singer.
They are temperamental people and for them, rightly so, "Sur aur sur sadhna
ek pesha nahin, balki eeshwar hai" . As someone rightly said, therefore,
such a casual statement would be tantamount to blasphemy - your life
might be in peril , depending upn the guy whom ypou confront with this :-)
I know my ustaad wuld be livid abut it, for sure.
>Film music, particularly Hindi film music, demands much more. The songs
>are simpler, the verbal calisthenics a singer needs to perform are less
>rigorous, and therefore much more subject to analysis and criticism. The
>industry, and people like us, demand singers that can _sing_ the song,
The only point where film singing makes more of a demand is in the diction
and enunciation, as also the mood of the song and the kind of emotion one has
to convey. I do agree with you on this point.
>
>When a Lata song comes on, I marvel at the way she makes the song
>sound. (Every song she sings.....).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Did I miss somethiong. or are you contradicting yourself ? I thought
acc. to you the way she makes the song sound does not integrate with the movie.
I disagree THERE; def. Lata sang good numbers till late 60's . After that her voice
underwent some sort of phase transition , and it sounded like a laboured effort
as an example , contrast O sajna barkha bahar aai , with any song she sang in the
70's - take even the good songs of abhimaan - there is a distinctive change. After
that it steadily got (a) deteriorated and (b) overhyped.
(But for me it will always be Asha and none else)
>
>
>As for your comment : "Please don't even mention K. Sanu ", it will not
surprise me in the least (though it will ire me) if tomorow Asha B. is compared
in class. ability with K. Sanu/ Alka Yagnik / and even worse, possibly
mediocre singers that will appear tomorow. They will all say knowingly, " well,
asha was good at cabaret nos. and so is this star- Ms. Renu ! from Jhumri talaiyya)
So she is the future Asha ,..... . Then these knowledgeable people will
click their tongues knowingly, and wistfully sigh............
Well, of course there will never be another lata,...."
I am resigned to people's choice being L., though I think that the min. we should
accept is that Asha is not her junior in mus. ability, albeit in age.
>
>PS: (1) Flames welcome. Please direct c/o RMIM.
"Jo chingariyan bhadkaaii tumne, unka anjaam "Flames" nahin, ek "Towering Inferno " hoga.
:-)
Arunabha.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Rajiv Shridhar wrote:
Number 1:
> Asha was and is not as capable of the perfection that Lata is, but has oodles
> of "soz" in her voice. So did Geeta Dutt, as did Noorjehan.
Number 2:
> Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was, like Asha,
> inescapably limited by the lack of classical perfection, but had the
> uncomparable ability to put "dard", "soz" and "pyaar" into a song.
That's twice you've said that Asha was lacking in the same kind of
control as her more famous didi. Kalyan and you should join together
and produce some proof of your allegations, one of these days. :) :)
I, personally, thought that both the 'soz' and 'saaz' in her voice
was very much intact when she does the alaap in
'jaaiye, aap kahaaN jaa'eNge'
If anything, it was AshaP's antics that make me smile/giggle. :)
> (2) Needless to say (and partly because Ikram liked it so much):
>
> "Please assume, without loss of generality, the presence of opinion"
And now, you will be adding a host of names to the list. :) :)
Later,
Ikram.
ps. Lata, deficient in 'soz'!!! We need a thread on that, NOW!!... :) :)
Tablaguy
Now we are getting into the meat of it, aren't we.
>This is a good piece of fiction. Kishore Kumar had zought, zero, zifr,
>shoonya, nought, nAda training in classical music and didn't know
>Sa from Ga from Pa.
Seems like we got a self proclaimed Pandit amidst us. That's right the
name does sound familiar...CD by Ali Akbar Khan...right? No wonder!!! What
a waste! I rest my case.
>There are three sources for my claim. One, the slew
>of articles in print.
Articles, probably written by Ponga Pandits like you, Ha.
>Two, his videotaped dialogue with Lata where he
>tells her "Tum to jaanti ho mujhe yeh Sa Re Ga Ma kuch nahiN aataa."
I heard this one too. This is where KK is joking with Lata. I could tell
the same thing about Vilayat Khan and Nikhil Banerjee where VK is saying
the same thing to NB like KK said to LM.
>Three - and this is a boast - I asked him myself.
Now who is giving us fiction!!
You are in the wrong place Ponga Pandit. Go back to Bombay where you
belong. Give me another one ...
>There is another
>piece of evidence too - his singing itself! None of this, none of this
>diminishes his incredible artistry and musical genius one bit. Au
>contraire. That he could do what he did is an inspiration!
Now we are talking!!!
Ashok
In article <19970531021...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, tabl...@aol.com says...
>Seems like we got a self proclaimed Pandit amidst us. That's right the
>name does sound familiar...CD by Ali Akbar Khan...right? No wonder!!! What
>a waste! I rest my case.
>Articles, probably written by Ponga Pandits like you, Ha.
>>Three - and this is a boast - I asked him myself.
>You are in the wrong place Ponga Pandit. Go back to Bombay where you
>belong. Give me another one ...
The only thing that such ad hominem diatribe accomplishes is a disgracing
of the self by the writer.
Ashok
dee...@india.hp.com
Hi,
The war of words b/w KKKlans and RAFIans seems like never
ending.It remembers me of the ad coffee/toffee.But one thing nobody
can deny is that rafi's voice was sweet while kishore's manly.kishore's
only ace was his yoddle which rafi couldn't. While rafi could easily sing
any classical based song kishore couldn't.Both were versatile singers
but rafi was more versatile.He was playback gayakonka badshah ..to use
ameen sayani's words.He reigned in the golden era of hindi songs(50s 60s)
while kishore reigned in action era(70s and 80s).
Cheers,
Deepak Gothe
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Rajan P. Parrikar
In article <19970531021...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
I don't know what you mean. You made a claim, didn't substantiate
it, I pointed out that it wasn't true, now you come back with
more piffle.
>Articles, probably written by Ponga Pandits like you, Ha.
I'll just let the readers judge for themselves. Here is one article
I have online which I posted many years ago. It was Kishore Kumar's
last major interview given to the then-editor of the Illustrated Weekly
of India, Pritish Nandy, and was the main feature of the April 28, 1985
issue. I am appending the relevant portion of the write-up leading to the
interview. The complete feature is available via the rmim automailer.
> >Two, his videotaped dialogue with Lata where he
>>tells her "Tum to jaanti ho mujhe yeh Sa Re Ga Ma kuch nahiN aataa."
>
>I heard this one too. This is where KK is joking with Lata. I could tell
He wasn't joking, it is a fairly serious conversation. Besides, there
are others on tape (Ashok Kumar, for example) who clearly say the same.
In any case, Kishore has on umpteen occasions admitted to not knowing
any classical music. There is no reason to disbelieve him.
Tablaguy doesn't sign his name and roars from behind his keyboard
in all his anonymity. I shall respond again only if he has anything
intelligent to add to the discussion. Currently there is no evidence
that he does.
Regards,
r
******
From: The Illustrated Weekly of India, April 28, 1985.
By Pritish Nandy
He doesn't smoke. He doesn't drink. He has no friends and never
socialises. And there's one thing he treasures more than money.
His solitude. That's Kishore Kumar for you, the man with the golden
voice, who has reigned over the world of popular music for almost two
decades now.
A madcap genius, fiercely committed to the bizarre and the outrageous,
he has over the years nurtured carefully his image as a strange,
unpredictable man who defies definition. At the same time he has sung
and danced his way into the hearts of millions of Indians who swear
by him. So the film industry, always a worshipper of success, has
chased him with money and accolades. In the hope of taming him, as it
has always tamed the talented. But, to Kishore Kumar, this has meant
nothing. He has wallowed in solitude, yodelling at the moon. He has
married four of the most interesting women in the industry and picked
up more money than you and I can ever dream of. And, what is perhaps
most important, done it without compromising anything whatsoever. On
his own terms. Always.
At his peak, when for almost a decade he was number one to number ten,
all rolled into one, and there was no one to be seen anywhere around,
he would be running from one recording studio to the next. Singing
sometimes four to five songs a day. And charging exactly one rupee less
than Lata Mangeshkar - in deference to her seniority. What precisely does
that mean in terms of actual figures? Well, if rumours are to be believed
- and usually relaible industry sources - every song recorded would make
him Rs. 15000 richer. Multiply that by several songs a day, and a reign
over almost two decades, and you have Fort Knox at Juhu.
Not bad for a man who never had any formal training in music nor a guru.
Who still can't read notations and cannot name more than three classical
Indian singers without prompting...
*****
Rajiv Shridhar
Warning: Another long post.
Arunabha wrote:
: Rajiv Shridhar wrote:
: >
: >Asha was and is not as capable of the perfection that Lata is, but has oodles
: >of "soz" in her voice. So did Geeta Dutt, as did Noorjehan. Today, there are
: >gaggles of female singers in Bollywood that try, like little children trying
: >desperately to please their doting parents, to render songs in child-like
: >voices, being desperately careful to hit all the right notes. The result
: >is, except for in situations where the song is intended to be for a teenager
: >or a waif-like innocent heroine, pathetic!
:
: I'm sure this must be your limited opinion.
Is there any other kind?
And Arunabha, I hope you will grant me my request to kindly re-read the above
paragraph. I thought from the general and specific points in my post, I was
being clear that I am more partial to Asha than to Lata. And that I'm more
partial to Kishore than to Lata. Because (I restate the general point of my
post here) despite the fact that their (Kishore's and Asha's) voices are
not as remarkable as Lata's, they put what I called "soz" and "dard" and all
that into the songs they sing.
Can I be clearer than that? OK. Here goes, again:
In my "limited opinion":
(a) Lata's voice is better but she is often unwilling to put emotion and
feeling into a song, rather choosing the route of singing it as "correctly"
as possible, hitting all the right notes, keeping with the rhythm. I am
not talking about Lata in the recent past, but when her voice was much
better sounding (50's to 70's or so...).
(b) Asha's voice is not as perfect as Lata's (in range _or_ in timbre), but
she has oodles of emotion, vitality and feeling to put into a song. I
might have mistakenly implied that she is limited in classical knowledge,
which was not my intention. I think she's quite capable at classical. She's
even better at ghazals than her elder sister is, but that's due to a
combination of classical knowledge and her "dard" ability.
(c) Kishore is inescapably limited w.r.t. classical music, but like Asha, he
puts feeling etc. etc. into a song, which I prefer any day.
(d) I think a song sung for film should put more emphasis on conveying the
meaning and import of the song than on sounding perfect i.e. if a singer
sings a "happy" song, and a "sad" song, his/her contribution to the song
must go beyond singing it well to conveying that emotion well. In fact, I
maintain, a number of singers, like Lata, don't do exactly that. While
Kishore and Asha, and Rafi and Talat, do exactly that.
(e) People often wrongly find fault with singers like Kishore, by saying
that he can't even hit all the right notes, where I don't consider that
as important as being able to "convey" the song, "transport" the song "to
a listener's heart".
(f) Today's singers, song-makers, and large part of listening public, find
a singer better if he/she has a good voice, can hit all the right notes,
and sounds "pretty". I don't agree with that. e.g. I think Udit Narayan
cannot hit all the right notes, but I still prefer him to other current
male singers (haven't heard Sonu Nigam, so no comment on that).
I think Talat didn't have a "perfect" voice, but I still love his songs
because he sang them well and with feeling.
(g) I made a syntactical mistake in my earlier post which probably changed
the whole intent of one paragraph.... I meant to say
\quote
Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was
inescapably limited by the lack of classical perfection, but like Asha, had
the uncomparable ability to put "dard", "soz" and "pyaar" into a song.
\unquote
I do NOT mean to imply that Asha is limited in classical ability. My regrets
if I inadvertantly conveyed anything of that sort.
(h) Even classical singers are not expected to hit _all_ the right notes
_all_ the time. Why is it that people are giving other people warnings,
automatically assuming that the person has zero classical knowledge or
a remarkably untuned ear? :-) No, actually you're perfectly welcome and
maybe justified in giving me that warning, although I probably won't
heed it. :-)
Let me explain what I mean: First, let's consider that an accomplished
classical singer and an accomplished film-music singer both are classically
trained and do 'riyaaz' every day. "sur saadhanaa" and all that is equally
subscribed to in both cases. When the film-music singer goes to
record a song, he/she is made to re-sing the song until it's perfect, not
only in delivery and with all the right accompaniments and recording-wise,
but also because the singer hit all the right notes to the best of his/her
ability exactly as the MD wanted him/her to. There is no flexibility accorded
to the singer in singing a film song. Also, through the marvel of recording
and editing technology, a final version of a film-song can be created from
a number of takes.
The classical singer (non-film) probably has a higher ability to hit whichever
note he/she wants, but also has the flexibility to experiment with the piece
he/she sings, within the nominal bounds of the raag and rhythm. Especially
when singing live (which I think is most of the time; even most recordings
are made at one or two sittings), and given the flexibility of experimenting,
and with the aalaap stage serving to partly "warm up", I believe there's a
very good chance the singer will hit a few more "wrong" notes than you'll
find in that final take from the film song, which is understandable, and
according to me doesn't stand in the way of my appreciating the singer and
his/her ability to sing. (Of course, the singer could be conservative and
not explore the envelope of his/her trade, keeping instead to the tried and
true, but that would not really make him/her a famous singer, would it?)
I've heard singers like Balamuralikrishna, Bhimsen Joshi, Kishori Amonkar
and Mallikarjun Mansoor quite a few times live, and M.S. Subbalakshmi
twice. I daresay there were instances where, to my minimally trained ear,
a note or two was wrongly sung, but that didn't detract from my appreciation
for them. Similar was the case, in my experience, listening to a number of
classical music instrumentalists. It's not something to do with their ability.
If you experiment, you take the risk of hitting a couple of wrong notes.
It doesn't reduce them to the level of an untrained singer. Far from it, in
fact.
: >Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was, like Asha,
Warning accepted. Thanks. :-) My ustaad (former ustaad) wouldn't be livid
about it.
:
: >Film music, particularly Hindi film music, demands much more. The songs
: >are simpler, the verbal calisthenics a singer needs to perform are less
: >rigorous, and therefore much more subject to analysis and criticism. The
: >industry, and people like us, demand singers that can _sing_ the song,
:
: The only point where film singing makes more of a demand is in the diction
: and enunciation, as also the mood of the song and the kind of emotion one has
: to convey. I do agree with you on this point.
: >
: >When a Lata song comes on, I marvel at the way she makes the song
: >sound. (Every song she sings.....).
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Did I miss somethiong. or are you contradicting yourself ? I thought
Yeah, you missed something. :-). We first assume we're not talking about Lata's
voice as it is today, but in the 50s to 70s when it was much better. As you
said, and I paraphrase here, today she's deteriorated terribly yet she insists on
singing those teenager songs, making her voice reedy, shrieky.....
: acc. to you the way she makes the song sound does not integrate with the movie.
: I disagree THERE; def. Lata sang good numbers till late 60's . After that her voice
: underwent some sort of phase transition , and it sounded like a laboured effort
: as an example , contrast O sajna barkha bahar aai , with any song she sang in the
: 70's - take even the good songs of abhimaan - there is a distinctive change. After
: that it steadily got (a) deteriorated and (b) overhyped.
: (But for me it will always be Asha and none else)
: >
: >
: >As for your comment : "Please don't even mention K. Sanu ", it will not
: surprise me in the least (though it will ire me) if tomorow Asha B. is compared
: in class. ability with K. Sanu/ Alka Yagnik / and even worse, possibly
: mediocre singers that will appear tomorow. They will all say knowingly, " well,
: asha was good at cabaret nos. and so is this star- Ms. Renu ! from Jhumri talaiyya)
: So she is the future Asha ,..... . Then these knowledgeable people will
: click their tongues knowingly, and wistfully sigh............
: Well, of course there will never be another lata,...."
I agree with you here. Although you probably didn't read it as such. :-)
: I am resigned to people's choice being L., though I think that the min. we should
: accept is that Asha is not her junior in mus. ability, albeit in age.
And I certainly don't disagree here. Again, I suspect you had included me
in the people who you were resigned to. :-)
: "Jo chingariyan bhadkaaii tumne, unka anjaam "Flames" nahin, ek "Towering Inferno " hoga.
: :-)
:
: Arunabha.
What can I say, but something like:
shamaa kahe paravaane se, pare chalaa jaa,
merii tarah jal jaayegaa, yahaa.N nahii.n aa
Rajiv
--
Rajiv Shridhar // Systems Mgr - Grad. Student // Communications and Digital
Signal Processing Center Center for Research and Graduate Studies //
Northeastern University, Boston, MA //ra...@hendrix.coe.neu.edu
aur bhi dukh haiN zamaane meiN mohabbat ke sivaa
raahateN aur bhi haiN vasl ki raahat ke sivaa -Faiz
arunabha_.
Hi Rajiv,
>:
>: I'm sure this must be your limited opinion.
>
>Is there any other kind?
Hmmm, well, i guess not. Actually I meant it's prob. not as general an opinion
as you might have implied.
Actually, after reading your reply, I noted an interesting point: the whole
confusion seeems to have been generated due to the misplacement of one
word : "but"
Here's what you originally wrote:
: >Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was, like Asha,
: >inescapably limited by the lack of classical perfection, but had the
^^^^^^^
: >uncomparable ability to put "dard", "soz" and "pyaar" into a song. That he
which implied that the two were alike in being class. ignorant.
And, judging from your reply, this is prob. what you meant :
\quote
Turning to the original topic of this thread, Kishore Kumar was
inescapably limited by the lack of classical perfection, but like Asha, had
^^^^^^^^^^^
the uncomparable ability to put "dard", "soz" and "pyaar" into a song.
\unquote
So , I hope my outburst is justified. The transposition of the but, indeed makes
a whale of a difference. Well, if you say A. had inferior range/timbre, well,
I can agree to disagree with you peacefully on that. After all, as you said,
even if that is the case, it's not "the ability to hit..." solel;y that coiunts,
but the total import of the performance. And there , For me, A. will reign.
S. Nigam has a good voice , though I wonder if he's trying to clone Rafi.
I can't say, my only basis is that he launched one of his firstr cassettes as a
tribute to rafu=i. His voice has the same soothing nature as rafi, though.
I agree that Udit N. although not a classical waah waah makes several songs sound
lilting and extremely satisfying. (In the spirit of KK- though NO comparison
implied here, to be on the safe side.)
Your comment on class. singers was interesting. Def., experimentation is a good thing in any
art form, and whether that would be looked upon kindly, I guess depends on the
temperament / orthodoxy of the listener. A wrong note, i would believe, hoever, would not escape
criticism. It is wholly poss. that they may let slip some errors, after all you do say
you have actually experienced this. I did not intenbd to cast aspersions on
your class. knowledge, BTW. (My own is limited). Only, I heard all sorts of interesting tales
about how, in the middle of a recital, the singer (not sure who, maybe
Mall. mansur/ Bhimsen J. would severely admonish the accompanist on the tanpura
for not paying attention to the rhythm/ slacking, and drive him off the stage,
much to the hapless person's discomfiture). It's just reflective of the fact that the person who
taught me was a bit too hard core about it, that's all. Their
exceptional attention to detail, i felt, would imply no willingness to compromise
on "hitting the notes"
>
>What can I say, but something like:
>
>shamaa kahe paravaane se, pare chalaa jaa,
> merii tarah jal jaayegaa, yahaa.N nahii.n
I like that- is the word in the first line "pyaare", by any chance ?
>
>Rajiv
>
>--
>
Tablaguy
>The only thing that such ad hominem diatribe accomplishes is a disgracing
>of the self by the writer.
Oh, How Profound!!!!! Tell me something new.
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Rajiv Shridhar wrote:
> (b) Asha's voice is not as perfect as Lata's (in range _or_ in timbre), but
More on why you feel this, please. Btw, Lata's voice has "timbre"?? :)
Didn't somebody describe it as a thin shrieky babygirl voice or words
to that effect? :) {He was comparing to more "able-bodied" voices like
NoorJehan, Shamshad etc... :)}
> (f) Today's singers, song-makers, and large part of listening public, find
> a singer better if he/she has a good voice, can hit all the right notes,
> and sounds "pretty". I don't agree with that. e.g. I think Udit Narayan
> cannot hit all the right notes, but I still prefer him to other current
> male singers (haven't heard Sonu Nigam, so no comment on that).
SonuN is pretty bad. mHo again. :)
But, to me, there is one singer whom I have just heard who fills the
type who don't have a likeable voice quality (to me) and yet, I love
their song(s). And this is the incomparable Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.
The Ustad sings in his recently MD'ed movie '... Aur Pyar Ho gaya'
{with the ellipsis :) :)} for a two songs, one of them is a solo.
His voice can't be called likeable, but I *enjoyed* his singing
a whole lot. He makes whatever he sings an experience for the
listener.....
Tho' I didn't like his work in the odd film 'Natural Born Killers'.
SonuN sings in '... Aur Pyar Ho Gaya' btw. Murders 'Ek din kaheeN'
I thought.... Also, UditN seems to be credited for SonuN's better
efforts in the film. {Probably because the transcriber couldn't
believe that SonuN could do a good job. :) :) } The song, here, is
'Uttar Dakshin' (actually sung as 'uttar dakkhin' ). Btw, this
movie is a good example of how UditN doesn't hit the proper notes
and still makes the song enjoyable, I thought. :)
Btw, related question - Music for this film is arranged by Amar
Haldipur. Is he part of the Amar-Utpal duo?
Later,
Ikram.
Raj
"Little knowledge is dangerous" is another proverb you haven't come
accross.
--
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______________________________________________
Rajiv Shridhar
Ikram Ahmed Khan (iak...@raleigh.ibm.com) wrote:
: Rajiv Shridhar wrote:
:
: > (b) Asha's voice is not as perfect as Lata's (in range _or_ in timbre), but
:
: More on why you feel this, please. Btw, Lata's voice has "timbre"?? :)
: Didn't somebody describe it as a thin shrieky babygirl voice or words
: to that effect? :) {He was comparing to more "able-bodied" voices like
: NoorJehan, Shamshad etc... :)}
I just feel Lata has the more "correct" voice. (Correct meaning more fluent
and more precise. Correct not used here to describe right or wrong.)
Although Asha's versatility endears her songs to me. She can sing ghazals,
pop-ish songs, fast and slow, and all the standard stuff. And in all those
songs, she can put in her emotions as the situation warrants, making the
song more listenable than if she hadn't.
That thin shrieky babygirl voice I or words to that effect was made in
reference to today's crop of young female singers, who try desperately
to aspire to the pre-ordained notion that a good singing voice is that
young teenagery voice, resulting instead in a reedy voice that sounds
limited, if not pathetic. Lata's being able to carry it off in her
pre-deterioration years is largely responsible for the notion, I feel.
BTW, Kavita Krishnamurthy sounded horrible to me as long as she insisted
in trying to sing an octave (or semi-octave...) higher than she was capable
of, in her early Hindi film songs.... In a couple of newer songs, she
sounds much better. I ascribe the former and latter to her trying, then
giving up, an attempt to sing at a high-pitched voice. I could be wrong
and she might have gone in for major training and "saadhanaa".
.........I find myself repeatedly explaining what I wrote now. :-)
Best regards,
Rajiv
:
: Later,
: Ikram.
--
Rajiv Shridhar
ra...@hendrix.coe.neu.edu
us mehfil-e-kaif-o-masti meN, us aNjuman-e-irfaani meN
sab jaam-b-kaf baiThe hi rahe, ham pi phi gae, chhalkaa bhi gae
- Majaz
Chetan
Hi Arunabha,
> <deleted an interesting pro-Asha argument>
>
>I am resigned to people's choice being L., though I think that the min.
>we should accept is that Asha is not her junior in mus. ability, albeit
>in age.
It is always difficult to argue on a sensitive issue like Lata vs. Asha. I
happen to like Lata better. The main thing I have against Asha is her lack of
perfection. Almost bordering on unwillingness to go all the way ! She is a
supremely talented singer - perhaps as talented or even more talented than her
didi. But IMO, she does not carry too many songs to that extra length that
Lata does. Hence, IMO, Asha has a much lower percentage of "great" songs than
Lata. Starting from her very early songs I have found innumerable (well, not
strictly so) occassions when she went off-key or missed a fraction of a beat
or caught her breath or mispronounced a word or two. But until the mid 60s or
so Lata hardly ever did that.
Lets turn the clock forward a couple of decades to Lekin. By now, Lata has
certainly lost much of her control and her voice is in shambles. Asha's aging
has been pointed out to be much more graceful by many. However, I find Lata's
songs from Lekin near perfect in terms of sur and taal although I do detect
ample signs of the battle she is fighting with her vocal chords. Asha's
"jhooThe nainaa bole..." is riddled with not only missed beats (taal gayaa to
baal gayaa...) but she is besur in a number of sequences (...lekin sur gayaa
to sir gayaa). So why is it that inspite of her by now superior capabilities
she belts out such an inferior effort ?
I am aware that I am treading on dangerous ground here ! All you Asha fans
must be out with a battlecry by now :) Just to let you know, I love many Asha
songs. Her work with S.D.Burman is outstanding for the most part. And then
there were songs with Madan Mohan ("sabah se ye keh do..."), Ravi ("jeevan
jyot jale..."), Hemant Kumar ("chalo chale.n maa...") et al.
C
Sambit Basu
parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>He wasn't joking, it is a fairly serious conversation. Besides, there
>are others on tape (Ashok Kumar, for example) who clearly say the same.
>In any case, Kishore has on umpteen occasions admitted to not knowing
>any classical music. There is no reason to disbelieve him.
There is an excellent documentary film on KishoreKumar
"Zindagi ka safar" by Sandip Ray (Satyajit Ray's son,
a very competent film-maker in his own right). That
well-researched documentary doesn't say anything about
KK's classical training.
I recommend that anybody interested in KK's
singing or hindi film songs in general to see the docu.
Sambit
Arunabha
Hi Chetan,
>
>It is always difficult to argue on a sensitive issue like Lata vs. Asha.
I do agree on THAT.
(Warning- Long post)
Hi Chetan,
>supremely talented singer - perhaps as talented or even more talented than her
>didi. But IMO, she does not carry too many songs to that extra length that
>Lata does. Hence, IMO, Asha has a much lower percentage of "great" songs than
>Lata. Starting from her very early songs I have found innumerable (well, not
>strictly so) occassions when she went off-key or missed a fraction of a beat
>or caught her breath or mispronounced a word or two. But until the mid 60s or
>so Lata hardly ever did that.
>
I really find that hard to digest. Of course each fan has an automatically biased
ear , attuned to his favourite, and somewhat neg. towards his not-liked
singers. I'm interested in knowing why you say A. might be even more talented
than her didi if you clearly feel that her renditions were not perfect , and
didn't go all the way. (No acrimony, just curious) BTW with regard to Lekin,
I didn't like Jhoothe naina much. But which are the points where she went off taal,
and , even more unbelievable, off tune ? Are you referring to the line :chaand
ka yeh ratiyaan ? It sounds abrupt , but I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether
it was an error or the composer intended it to go that way. I didn't like
it all the same. Off tune seems VERY hard to believe. BTW I think A.'s breath control
is superior : if you want Lekin, hear the Kesariya Balama recorded on Side B: Lata
fails in breath unerringly every line, and the result is ludicrous as well as
assailing (in short a torture) .
For Asha's songs of youth, the classic example is:
Raat akeli hai which even SDB , the sworn Lata patron, chose and lauded her for.
It is a pity that such songs , extremely demanding in terms of vocal agility,
notwithstanding,are never given their due because they are regarded as songs for the suporting
actresses.
>Lets turn the clock forward a couple of decades to Lekin. By now, Lata has
>certainly lost much of her control and her voice is in shambles. Asha's aging
>has been pointed out to be much more graceful by many. However, I find Lata's
>songs from Lekin near perfect in terms of sur and taal although I do detect
>ample signs of the battle she is fighting with her vocal chords. Asha's
>"jhooThe nainaa bole..." is riddled with not only missed beats (taal gayaa to
>baal gayaa...) but she is besur in a number of sequences (...lekin sur gayaa
>to sir gayaa). So why is it that inspite of her by now superior capabilities
>she belts out such an inferior effort ?
i think the song itself (tune etc. ) was bad . Explanation enough ? Sunio ji
was clearly the best tune . For comparing "going all the way" , were your ears able
to take "Ja ja re" in Bhupali Todi, from Lekin, by Lata ? Horrible is the word.
When she goes to the high part, I feel def. she does not reach even within a
mile close to the note needed. The voice cracks, and all sorts of terrific sound
effects pour out . Then there's this alaap where Hriday sings sa re ga... and is followed
by Lata : SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSa re ga.. always made me crack up- just
like a snake hissing. :-) I however note that you said L. was able to reach notes
flawlesly only in her younger days; I am adding the criticism of lekin because you
also mentioned Lakin as an e.g. where L. beat A. despite her cracked voice.
No doubt, she would not have done such terrifying stuff
earlier.
BTW, does anyone know why her voice changed so suddenly in the 70s ? I heard this
story about how some playback(one of the begums) who was envious of L's paramount success
once called her on the pretext of a reconciliation , and attempted to give
her some food with an additive that would ruin her voice forever. AFAIK, L. did not
take it. If only this begum would have bided time and cooled her heels for
a bit, (and let nature play it's course) she would have realised that her efforts were unnecessary.
I'm sure no additive could create the trerrific change in her voice.
Many have remarked that A.'s natyageet in Marathi are awesome- I haven't heard
these, so i do not know. But I feel that A.'s voice , being more robust,
is more suitable to difficult songs of a class. flavour. The young Lata's
voice had a sweetness which I think is what did it for her in terms of popularity.
While she could do taans effortlessly, (even a marvellous job in Sunio ji- even
A. fans like me will admit ), it is not the same pleasure as a riorously done
taan by A. My opinion concurs with OPNayyar's : "Lata HAD a good voice, but her
thin shrill pitch was not what suited me- I needed strong voices like Asha, Geeta
and shamshad)" .
Your statement about Asha having sung less of good songs is def. true. Many
articles I have read on RMIM clearly mention that while there was one OPN for
whom it was only Asha, for most other successful MD's it was the other way around.
With such a prevailing bias , what can one expect ?
In fact I am surprised that the total no. of songs sung by them is at all
comparable.
One can always claim that this implies that Lata was better, but I think this
is not true. Varsha Bhosle's article, posted some days back, mentioned that
while most looked upon her as a fallen woman, blah blah etc and consequently
didn't call for her except those vamp songs , Bengali, Marathi and other
music industries were more broad minded and produced excellent songs from her.
While I cannot substantiate this, it is quite possible.
I think while Lata had a good voice (no doubt) it was too much lacking in variety
(only capable of singing class. / sweet angelic-innocence exuding nos.) This is
what eventually made me grow sick of it and discover A. I was once a pro-Lata
myself.
On the topic , I think (again much reiterated) that Asha's voice conveys emotion
much better. (I'm not talking of chirpiness and frothy vivacity only- that is
an Asha fan's Brahmastra , to borrow a term from the Rafians).
(Consider examples like Main ka karoon raam mujhe buddha mil gayaby lata-
when she tried naughty nos. they were not effective, because she sang it
just in the same pure tone as Chaand phi nikla or Tera mera pyaar amar- there was
a total lack of the required feeling. However, not to use the brahmastra, in my
opinion , even sad , lingering melodies are made much richer by Asha due to her
strong, (husky at times ?) voice - examples could be Umraoo Jaan ghazals
or Chain se hum ko kabhi or Woh hanske mile hamse or ...
. But Asha even excelled when she ascended the high
octaves (Shokh nazar ki bijliyan ) . When young, she sang more of the trilling Lata
kind of nos. It is my biased opinion that any song in Lata's mien will be accessible
by Asha, but that a large no. of asha's will prove impossible for any singer,
let alone L.
Another point on which Asha is IMHO (well, IMHO is implicit throughout) better
is her diction. lata's voice, consequently, sounds bad in ghazals , other than
the trilling sharp ones like Haal e dil unko yun sunaya gaya. Her problem
is that once she steps out of this narrow
bandwidth where she is undeniably good , she flops irretrievably in
comparison, and surprisingly people still go ga ga. I think Madan Mohan would
have been much better off giving Asha "Ruke ruke se qadam" instead of Didiji , but
he being MM, and Lata being (I sing only noble songs) Lata , he instead
gave her the tawaif's song : Mere ishq me laakhon latke. I think it was fortunate
for Asha that lata had this nose in the air attitude- or else even those
cabaret nos. would have been continuously belted out (and need I even say,
murdered) by lata. Can you imagine Lata singing Raat akeli hai for Tanuja ?
Yuck ! All notes would have been in place, , but the effect itself would be
missing. Somewhat like an artificially generated set of (perfect) notes from
a machine. I even have my reserations about whether l. possesed that extent of breath co
ntrol. It was in Asha's interest that L. rejected these songs- else she
might never even have been discovered ! :-)
On the copntrary , I think Asha could easily sing mehfil teri dil me, O sajna varkha
bahr aayi, baahon me chale aao and any other difficult song of Didi's.
L. fans will prob. def. say that the effect would not be the same- it is possible
. But it would have been equally plasing to me at least.
>I am aware that I am treading on dangerous ground here ! All you Asha fans
>must be out with a battlecry by now :) Just to let you know, I love many Asha
>songs. Her work with S.D.Burman is outstanding for the most part. And then
>there were songs with Madan Mohan ("sabah se ye keh do..."), Ravi ("jeevan
>jyot jale..."), Hemant Kumar ("chalo chale.n maa...") et al.
I'm eager to hear these ! Haven't heard a single one of them !
BTW who do you think does a better job in these L- A duets ? (open question, this
is not meant to be rhetorical if it sounds that way )
1) Mere mehboob me kya nahin, kya nahin
2) Man kyon bahka re bahka aadhi raat ko
3) Aye kash kisi deewane ko, humse bhi mohabbat ho jaaye.
i think i'm treading on much more dangerous territory :-)(as the no. of L. fans
must be tremendous in comparison to A.'s fan following) . But it is
never my intention, even in my dreams , to change some one's favourite.
I Just feel that Asha should not be taken lightly, that's all. Each to his own.
Thanks,
Arunabha
arunabha_roy
Pradeep Dubey
In article <5n1u93$8...@clarknet.clark.net>, cvin...@telogy.com (Chetan) writes:
|>
|> Hi Arunabha,
|>
|> > <deleted an interesting pro-Asha argument>
|> >
|> >I am resigned to people's choice being L., though I think that the min.
|> >we should accept is that Asha is not her junior in mus. ability, albeit
|> >in age.
|>
|> It is always difficult to argue on a sensitive issue like Lata vs. Asha. I
|> happen to like Lata better. The main thing I have against Asha is her lack of
|> perfection. Almost bordering on unwillingness to go all the way ! She is a
|> supremely talented singer - perhaps as talented or even more talented than her
|> didi. But IMO, she does not carry too many songs to that extra length that
|> Lata does. Hence, IMO, Asha has a much lower percentage of "great" songs than
|> Lata. Starting from her very early songs I have found innumerable (well, not
|> strictly so) occassions when she went off-key or missed a fraction of a beat
|> or caught her breath or mispronounced a word or two. But until the mid 60s or
|> so Lata hardly ever did that.
With same qualifiers as Chetan's above, I would like to add the following.
With respect to Lata, Asha looses seriously in the 'pronounication' department.
I am yet to find a Lata song where she has mispronounced a word. However,
here are at least three from Asha:
a) pyaar hai pyaar aur kuchh bhi nahin, RAAJ jiska na koi ...
- Believe me, it hurts to hear 'raaj' as in 'raaja' and not 'raaz'.
This song is from AGNEEPAREEKSHA, MD: Salil, Lyrics: Yogesh.
b) jab andhera hota hai ...
- may be in the movie, heroine is supposed to be less-educated
than the hero, otherwise I don't know why Bhupendra could say
'shaharaon ki galiyon', and Asha says: 'saharon ki galiyon'
c) hamein raaston ki ... (NARAM GARAM)
- I have mentioned this before, Asha insists on saying: JINDAGI
and not zindagi.
She is certainly one of the most talented ever, and I prefer her version of
'samay o dheere' over Lata's.
Pradeep
|>
|> Lets turn the clock forward a couple of decades to Lekin. By now, Lata has
|> certainly lost much of her control and her voice is in shambles. Asha's aging
|> has been pointed out to be much more graceful by many. However, I find Lata's
|> songs from Lekin near perfect in terms of sur and taal although I do detect
|> ample signs of the battle she is fighting with her vocal chords. Asha's
|> "jhooThe nainaa bole..." is riddled with not only missed beats (taal gayaa to
|> baal gayaa...) but she is besur in a number of sequences (...lekin sur gayaa
|> to sir gayaa). So why is it that inspite of her by now superior capabilities
|> she belts out such an inferior effort ?
|>
|> I am aware that I am treading on dangerous ground here ! All you Asha fans
|> must be out with a battlecry by now :) Just to let you know, I love many Asha
|> songs. Her work with S.D.Burman is outstanding for the most part. And then
|> there were songs with Madan Mohan ("sabah se ye keh do..."), Ravi ("jeevan
|> jyot jale..."), Hemant Kumar ("chalo chale.n maa...") et al.
|>
|> C
Anil Hingorani
Hi Arunabha (what a nice name!),
Being a Lata fan (warning: I'm totally biased), I HAD to respond:-):-)
> taan by A. My opinion concurs with OPNayyar's : "Lata HAD a good voice, but her
> thin shrill pitch was not what suited me- I needed strong voices like Asha, Geeta
> and shamshad)" .
Of course, he never mentions all those tunes he had composed for Lata
but never could get her to sing them.
> Your statement about Asha having sung less of good songs is def. true. Many
Asha has sung twice as many songs as Lata has, and that makes me
wonder why A. fans say that she wasn't given enough "opportunity".
She was given ample songs (the numbers are clearly lop-sided in her
favor) but she just didn't have what it takes to be a Lata or a
Noorjehan or even a Geeta Roy.
> articles I have read on RMIM clearly mention that while there was one OPN for
> whom it was only Asha, for most other successful MD's it was the other way around.
> With such a prevailing bias , what can one expect ?
Was it a 'bais' or just good sense by the composers to pick the
better singer?
> In fact I am surprised that the total no. of songs sung by them is at all
> comparable.
They are NOT comparable, as I have said above!
> I think while Lata had a good voice (no doubt) it was too much lacking in variety
> (only capable of singing class. / sweet angelic-innocence exuding nos.) This is
> what eventually made me grow sick of it and discover A. I was once a pro-Lata
> myself.
Grow sick of good singing? That's a new one!
>
> On the topic , I think (again much reiterated) that Asha's voice conveys emotion
> much better. (I'm not talking of chirpiness and frothy vivacity only- that is
> an Asha fan's Brahmastra , to borrow a term from the Rafians).
The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said). Give me
one example of something similar to 'betaab dil ki tamanna..' or
'kitni akeli tanha si lagi..'. Geeta sung Asha-like songs, but her
voice never had that kind of dubious quality like Asha's.
> just in the same pure tone as Chaand phi nikla or Tera mera pyaar amar- there was
> a total lack of the required feeling. However, not to use the brahmastra, in my
A total lack of feeling in 'chand phir nikla...'? Poor SDB must turn
in his grave at such an accusation! Lata's voice, besides having the
awesome 'mithaas' and preciseness, she had as much 'soz' as anyone else,
if not more - specially her sad and romantic songs.
> kind of nos. It is my biased opinion that any song in Lata's mien will be accessible
> by Asha, but that a large no. of asha's will prove impossible for any singer,
> let alone L.
>
That is certainly a biased opinion. Just one example: imagine Asha
singing 'aaja re pardesi..' YUCK!
> Another point on which Asha is IMHO (well, IMHO is implicit throughout) better
> is her diction. lata's voice, consequently, sounds bad in ghazals , other than
How about all those ghazals Lata did for MM, Naushad, Roshan & CR?
Taking one example from each composer, I will ask you to name any
Asha ghazals that are better (not equally good):
'unko yeh shikayat hai'
'khuda nigehaba ho tumhara'
'rahate the kabhi jinke dil mein'
'mujhse mat pooch mere isqh mein'
These are all popular ghazals. Also, tell me in which of these songs
is the 'soz' missing?
> the trilling sharp ones like Haal e dil unko yun sunaya gaya. Her problem
> is that once she steps out of this narrow
> bandwidth where she is undeniably good , she flops irretrievably in
> comparison, and surprisingly people still go ga ga.
Narrow bandwidth? Lata had more range than any other female singer.
Can Asha ever reach the heights of the alaap in 'pankh hote to..'?
> murdered) by lata. Can you imagine Lata singing Raat akeli hai for Tanuja ?
> Yuck ! All notes would have been in place, , but the effect itself would be
I do agree with you here.
> >songs. Her work with S.D.Burman is outstanding for the most part. And then
Asha's work with SDB was totally outstanding, but SDB still PREFERED
Lata. He called Lata his 'first serve' with whom he can serve 'aces',
as he very often did. Asha was his 'second serve'.
> >there were songs with Madan Mohan ("sabah se ye keh do..."), Ravi ("jeevan
> >jyot jale..."), Hemant Kumar ("chalo chale.n maa...") et al.
>
> I'm eager to hear these ! Haven't heard a single one of them !
>
All of them excellent songs - especially 'jeevan jyot jale' and
Asha sings them beautifully.
> BTW who do you think does a better job in these L- A duets ? (open question, this
> is not meant to be rhetorical if it sounds that way )
> 1) Mere mehboob me kya nahin, kya nahin
> 2) Man kyon bahka re bahka aadhi raat ko
> 3) Aye kash kisi deewane ko, humse bhi mohabbat ho jaaye.
>
In most of their 'good' duets, they both come off equally good and in
very few of them, one has the advantage over the other.
> I Just feel that Asha should not be taken lightly, that's all. Each to his own.
>
I don't think anyone takes her lightly. She has gotten her due, even
though her fans might not think so.
Bottom line: Whether you like it or not, Lata is still used as a
yardstick to measure other singers, including Asha.
As far as I am concerend, I think Asha is a great singer, but she
never was, is not and never will be a Lata. Sorry!
Anil
Veena S Nayak
In article <3396DDD7...@etsd.ml.com>,
Anil Hingorani <ahi...@etsd.ml.com> wrote:
>Asha has sung twice as many songs as Lata has, and that makes me
>wonder why A. fans say that she wasn't given enough "opportunity".
>She was given ample songs (the numbers are clearly lop-sided in her
>favor) but she just didn't have what it takes to be a Lata or a
>Noorjehan or even a Geeta Roy.
EVEN a Geeta Roy??!!
>The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
>to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
>song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said). Give me
>one example of something similar to 'betaab dil ki tamanna..' or
>'kitni akeli tanha si lagi..'.
The problem lies not in Asha's singing but in the
mentality displayed by the likes of Naushad saab: any
woman with a hint of sexuality in her must be a slut.
A "nice sensual" song would be an oxymoron in this context.
Still, I suggest you listen to "ka re duraava" from the
Marathi film Mumbaicha Javai. One of the most gentle seduction
numbers I have ever heard. And nobody who has heard "jeevalaga,
raahile re door ghar maazhe" would ever say that the only emotion
in Asha's singing is that of sluttiness.
"kitni akeli" or "betaab dil ki" are not sensual songs, however
good they may be. They are just two more examples in the crowded
category of "tum hi meri mandir, tum hi meri puja" type of
songs that Lata excelled in. Lata may have been great, but she
is not the goddess that she is made out to be. I know this
point has been stressed several times, so I will not belabour it:
Lata could not express mischief, sexual or otherwise. I have almost
eaten my fingers in agony whenever I have heard her say "sofe se
gir padi, ha ha ha" in "ek baat kahun gar mano tum" (Golmaal).
And she is ghastly in "sayonara, sayonara". Makes you wish she had
meant it.
Veena.
vven...@pcocd2.intel.com
Arunabha wrote:
=> For Asha's songs of youth, the classic example is: Raat
=> akeli hai which even SDB , the sworn Lata patron, chose
=> and lauded her for. It is a pity that such songs ,
=> extremely demanding in terms of vocal agility,
=> notwithstanding,are never given their due because
=> they are regarded as songs for the suporting actresses.
I concur. On the soundtrack of "Bahaaron ke Sapne", eventhough
my favorite would be the Lata song "Kya janoon sajan hoti hai
kya gham ki shaam" with Usha Mangeshkar pitching in for the back
ground effect, I cannot help but notice that probably a lot more
dexterity was required to sing the cabaret-type song "do pal jo
teri aankhon se peene ko mile". Notice how she does the hiccupy
sound in the flow of the song without missing a beat :
"kahin jo tum hote *hic* liye
do aankhon ke nasheele sahaare *hic* liye"
=> I Just feel that Asha should not be taken lightly, that's
=> all. Each to his own.
Well, never mind taking lightly, let them atleast leave her
alone and not mindlessly throw disreputable statements. It
was in very poor taste for Naushad to make the thoughtless
statement about Asha's voice in the first place. But he
probably did it to be in the good books of Ms. Lata Mangeshkar.
Else, who can label the quality of a voice? And now, people
are mindlessly repeating it with no qualms about hurting a
lady's dignity. It saddens me immensely.
=>Thanks,
=>Arunabha
Vandana.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of
Intel.
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
Anil Hingorani <ahi...@etsd.ml.com> writes:
> Asha has sung twice as many songs as Lata has, and that makes me
> wonder why A. fans say that she wasn't given enough "opportunity".
> She was given ample songs (the numbers are clearly lop-sided in her
> favor) but she just didn't have what it takes to be a Lata or a
> Noorjehan or even a Geeta Roy.
Could you produce some numbers to substantiate that claim
please? I am curious, because in a not-too-recent thread these numbers
were actually counted and I do not recall the picture being the way
you describe above.
> Grow sick of good singing? That's a new one!
Make that 'grow sick of only one kind of singing' or
something, and then it will probably make more sense. :-)
> The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no
> offense to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice
> sensual song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab
> said). Give me one example of something similar to 'betaab dil ki
> tamanna..' or 'kitni akeli tanha si lagi..'. Geeta sung Asha-like
> songs, but her voice never had that kind of dubious quality like
> Asha's.
Ouch! Sexy sluttiness? That was clearly uncalled for, offense
meant or otherwise... :-(
Are you equating the two here (i.e. sexy = slutty)? Insults
apart (which is clearly there in your quote), I am quite sincerely
lost on your concept of sensuality. Also, I was quite unaware that
Naushad was the resident expert on morality. Frankly, to me his
comment comes across as prudish, presumptuous and downright offensive;
and I am sorry that people on RMIM feel free to use it without any
qualms.
Looks like you haven't heard *any* Asha songs yet, if you are
still looking for a 'nice sensual song' by her. (Aside: can 'nice' ---
in the goody-two-shoes sense --- and 'sensual' ever be together?)
While Lata makes even a sensual song sound like a 'praarthana'
(a case in the point --- the much touted Lata cabaret number 'aa
jaaneja' which seems soaked up in piety rather than sensuality), Asha
is impeccable in her conveyance of the right amount of sensuality,
mischief and oomph (example --- another Helen song 'aao na, gale
lagaao na'). It is indeed Asha's voice alone that elevates songs only
meant for the vamp / cabaret dancer to respectability (another example
--- 'jab chhaaye meraa jaadu'). I really fail to see where you get the
'slutty' feeling from in Asha's songs --- or are you simply quoting
Naushad only to prove your point by whatever means? Ruin the lady's
dignity if you can't fault her talent, huh?
Sad. Very sad.
> That is certainly a biased opinion. Just one example: imagine Asha
> singing 'aaja re pardesi..' YUCK!
I did, and it sounded pretty good, certainly not YUCK. Then I
imagined Lata singing 'phir se aaiyo, badraa bidesi', and shuddered.
:-)
> How about all those ghazals Lata did for MM, Naushad, Roshan & CR?
> Taking one example from each composer, I will ask you to name any
> Asha ghazals that are better (not equally good):
> 'unko yeh shikayat hai'
> 'khuda nigehaba ho tumhara'
> 'rahate the kabhi jinke dil mein'
> 'mujhse mat pooch mere isqh mein'
> These are all popular ghazals. Also, tell me in which of these songs
> is the 'soz' missing?
Frankly, all of them. There is a two cassette album of ghazals
/ nazms that Asha sang with none other than Ghulam Ali, and she more
than holds her own in it.
The point is not to say that Lata is a bad ghazal singer,
period. Undoubtedly she had an incredibly sweet voice and consummate
skill. In fact, she may even have been the best at soft romantic songs
or sad songs. At the same time, she also has major limitations when it
comes to versatility. She may have sung all kinds of songs and may
have also sung them well, but *overall* Asha comes out as a more
well-rounded singer.
> Narrow bandwidth? Lata had more range than any other female singer.
> Can Asha ever reach the heights of the alaap in 'pankh hote to..'?
It is a well-established fact that Lata has trouble with very
high pitches (a number of songs pointed out on this forum in various
threads). I am sure that Asha could reach the heights of 'pankh hote
to'. But Lata certainly can't do 'o meri jaan maine kahaa'. :-)
> Asha's work with SDB was totally outstanding, but SDB still PREFERED
> Lata. He called Lata his 'first serve' with whom he can serve
> 'aces', as he very often did. Asha was his 'second serve'.
So you agree there was a bias against Asha?
> I don't think anyone takes her lightly. She has gotten her due, even
> though her fans might not think so.
And how is that? You make a comment in your post about her
voice having 'sexy sluttiness', and then claim that she is not taken
lightly and has gotten her due? I am flummoxed at the extent such
double standards are perennially meted out to Asha. :-(
> Bottom line: Whether you like it or not, Lata is still used as a
> yardstick to measure other singers, including Asha.
Not by all the people, thankfully... :-)
> As far as I am concerend, I think Asha is a great singer, but she
> never was, is not and never will be a Lata. Sorry!
:-) I don't think she even wants to be Lata (or her fans here
want her to be, for that matter). She is already a better singer. :-)
Ciao,
An angry falcon...
\____Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu____/
Office: ISIP, MSU, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road, MS State MS 39762
Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2819
\_http://www.isip.msstate.edu/____Disk Space - The Final Frontier..._/
sm...@lehigh.edu
In article <5n7aqm$p...@ns4-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU>, sm...@Lehigh.EDU writes:
>It is possible to discuss a singer's voice with hurting his/her dignity.
^^^^^^
Whoops!! I meant "without hurting his/her dignity". Sorry for the typo.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
sm...@lehigh.edu
In article <5n70lj$kra$1...@bilbo.reference.com>, vven...@pcocd2.intel.com writes:
>Arunabha wrote:
>
>=> For Asha's songs of youth, the classic example is: Raat
>=> akeli hai which even SDB , the sworn Lata patron, chose
>=> and lauded her for. It is a pity that such songs ,
>=> extremely demanding in terms of vocal agility,
>=> notwithstanding,are never given their due because
>=> they are regarded as songs for the suporting actresses.
>
>I concur. On the soundtrack of "Bahaaron ke Sapne", eventhough
I too agree regarding Asha not being given due credit for her singing ability
in such songs. Perhaps such vocal gymnastics got classified under "Athletics"
while Lata's vocal dance sequences were filed under "art".
>=> I Just feel that Asha should not be taken lightly, that's
>=> all. Each to his own.
>
>Well, never mind taking lightly, let them atleast leave her
>alone and not mindlessly throw disreputable statements. It
>was in very poor taste for Naushad to make the thoughtless
>statement about Asha's voice in the first place. But he
>probably did it to be in the good books of Ms. Lata Mangeshkar.
It was truly in bad taste for Naushad to make such a stmnt. But, it wasn't
supposed to be a public stmnt, atleast that's what Raju Bharatan's book says.
Naushad made that stmnt in RB's presence and the latter put it in print (what
else do u expect a journalist to do). Lata was already out of Naushad's music
room at that time and he made a public apology to Asha.
>Else, who can label the quality of a voice? And now, people
>are mindlessly repeating it with no qualms about hurting a
>lady's dignity. It saddens me immensely.
It is possible to discuss a singer's voice with hurting his/her dignity.
Here is my analysis:
Asha's voice does lack that "sharafat" which Lata has. It lacks that sincerity
necessary for bhajans, sad songs, etc. There are several songs where she has
overcome this drawback ("Main jab bhi akeli hoti hun...", "Sukh aur dukh ke
raaste...", "Yehi woh jagah hai..." etc), but on an average she lags far
behind lata in this department and this is what makes me a Lata fan.
There are songs in which I prefer Asha over Lata. I do feel that she has done
a better job than baRi didi in almost all their duets. GHazals and quawwalis
are two genres where I think Asha is MUCH better, esp. in the latter. Anil had
listed several nice GHazals by Lata. Although all those GHazals are great, I
still feel that Asha's voice is able to convey the lyricist's message better,
and that to me, is the most important aspect of a GHazal. Although Lata's
GHazals may sound more melodious (not always), Asha's GHazals are more
enjoyable to me because her voice enhances the beauty of the lyrics.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>=>Arunabha
>
>
>Vandana.
*****************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Ab kisi nazaare ki, dil ko aarzoo kyun ho
Jabse pa liya tumko, sab jahaan mera hai
Sahir in "Parbaton ke peRon par, shaam ka bassera hai..." (Shagoon)
*****************************************************************************
Pradeep Dubey
Anil Hingorani wrote:
> The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
> to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
> song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said).
Speaking as a Lata fan, Anil, isn't the statement above stretching
the truth too thin?
Isn't there a non-bazaruu and very 'gharelu' emotion in songs such as:
abki baras bhej bhaiya ko babul
OR
chain se hamko kabhi
Pradeep
P.S.
All of a sudden RMIM has become such an interesting place!!
I don't quite know where the credit should go. Mr. Ravi K, perhaps :-)
Vandana
In article <3396DDD7...@etsd.ml.com>, Anil Hingorani says...
>The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
>to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
>song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said).
No offense? Please have respect for a lady's dignity and do not mindlessly
repeat what Naushad said. Try using a different line of argument to prove
your point. No one can place a label on the quality of a voice. Like Varsha
Bhonsle said in her article :
"...what a coincidence that just around the time of her marriage to
R D Burman, the "Cabaret-singer" label was miraculously replaced by
the respectable "Versatile". I grit my teeth each time I hear it.
Just another label signifying nothing."
>Bottom line: Whether you like it or not, Lata is still used as a
>yardstick to measure other singers, including Asha.
>
>As far as I am concerend, I think Asha is a great singer, but she
>never was, is not and never will be a Lata. Sorry!
>
>Anil
Vandana.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Balaji A.S. Murthy
In article <5n7d0f$n...@drn.zippo.com>, Ikram says...
>>> thin shrill pitch was not what suited me- I needed strong voices like Asha, Geeta
>>> and shamshad)" .
>>
>>Of course, he never mentions all those tunes he had composed for Lata
>>but never could get her to sing them.
>
>info please.
Let's evaluate this objectively. Granted O.P. had reasons to not work with
Lata. If he composed "all those tunes" for Lata but never got her to sing,
could he have got someone *else* to sing them? How about Suman? For what it's
worth, Suman could have been a viable replacement. Or was O.P. not working with
her either? Or was it really to do with his style?
BTW, this(whether Suman sang for O.P.) is a general query and I am very
interested to know the answer to this one. I am not arguing for/against
Lata/Asha (people are already are doing an admirable job of it :)).
- Balaji
Pallab B. Bhattacharyya
Anil Hingorani went YUCK in even having the thought of Asha singing Aa Jaa
Re Pardesi...
In 1994, when Asha was touring North America, I had the privilege to attend
her show in Chicago. She showed her great admiration for her didi Lata.
And then to show respect to Lata she sang the first line (?) of Aa Jaa Re
Pardesi...
If I had not known that it was her, I would have mistaken it to be Lata
singing. She somehow changed the pitch of her voice and did the other
adjustments to sound just like Lata, IMHO. And the reaction from the
house full crowd was something I will remember for long.
And BTW, she was AWESOME.
And as far as her singing something like "Betaab Dil Ki Tamannaa Yehi Hai",
I am sure songs like JAA RE PAWANIYAA, AMBAR KI EK PAAK, JAANE KYAA HAAL
and a lot of other songs will qualify.
Regarding her singing as many as TWICE number of songs as Lata, can somebody
please provide the facts on this?
Thanks,
...Pallab
P.S: Yes, I am a BIG Asha Bhosle fan while fully enjoying Lata Mangeshkar's
majority of songs too!!!
arunabha_s._roy
Hi RMIMERs,
I was positively astounded by the whopping number of responses to
my original thread. Thanks to all of you there who did.
First let me clarify a few points :
1) When i mentioned that Lata had a narrow bandwidth, obviously I was not
talking about vocal (as in musical tone) range. She is credited to have HAD
mastery of 3 1/2 octaves, i think (Julie Andrews was given credit for 5). No denying that,.
I have been quoted out of context. I meant to use bandwidth in the context of
a space or category of various kinds of songs. By saying low b.w. I mean IMHO she
is good at a particular category alone.
This has been agreed to by I believe even some Lata fans. When I remarked that
even "Main ka karoon raam" was sung .... with the same kind of tone as "Chaand
phir nikla" I was NOT saying that Chaand phir nikla is bad. I meant that the emotional content
of the 2 songs were compl. different and she did not manage to convey this (due to her low
BW). I would have spelt it out in detail, only I got tired of
tytping what was already an enormous post. Come on, give me credit for some
common music sense.
2) I nearly fell off the chair thinking about how L. would have sung Main sofe se gir padi
ha ha ha . My addition to this is Ha ha ha ha ha .......
Good lord. I haven't heard the song, but now desperately do want to !
3) The statement said to have been made by Naushad is egregious and downright
shocking. I condemn it - when I read Varsha B.'s article on how MD's treated
her without respect because of her personal life traumas, I thought she was
being judgemental and exaggerating to an extent. I see now that she was right.
I'm deeply pained by such filthy abuse of a lady's dignity - after all the mentioned
article does say how many such terms and worse ones were used to describe A.
I don't care if naushad "Sahab" ! was a "great " MD; he clearly was a preju
diced bigot in my opinion - if he resorted to such statements.
it's a differewnt matter altogether that I never cared for
his music.
4) All of Lata's ghazals sound like her bhajans like her patriotic songs
like her loris like her chhed chhad songs like her.... even Lata fans have
agreed. So why should I add any more. The Lata ghazals someone mentioned are OK,
but as someone else remarked they do not have the emotion conveyed by Asha
.I'm sure the person who mentioned "Meraj-e- ghazal " will agree with
me whole heartedly listen to roodaad e mohabbat kya kahiye , hairaton ke silsile , or any
other ghazal from that collection. terfific. And no, the mood is not
slutty, sexy, or even sensual, it is different. And BTW ghazals arew supposed to
be love songs , not pious bhajans- so why do you grudge talent by giving it names
like sexy slutty. BTW, I enjoy her songs which are supp. to give this emotion too
she makes them a different experience. Of course, this is not to say EVERY song
she belts out is good. And Lata for soz - puhleeze - I AM conceding that her
voice has emotion, only it's that same old one each and every time. Aao na gale
lagao na , BTW has Tanuja , and not Helen, IMHO.
5) Diction: I can assure you that Asha has in the songs she has sung, pronounced zindagi
and shahri properly, as well as their counterparts sahri (koi sahri babu dil
lahri babu) . I'm sure your conjecture about her
having sung for some village belle must be true. Asha's pronunciation sounds
much better to me. Try Mere isq me lakhon latke and see the extent of ganwaar
accent she is made to sing. That desn't imply SHE pronounces that way, does it ?
She's singing for a kothe waali , and so I'm sure Gulzar made it sound that way.
The line "saukeen kahte hain" in fact sounds pos. entertaining the way she renders it.
6) The comment "Even" Geeta roy sure drew a lot of flak. :-)
No doubt Geeta's voice had shokhi
and chanchalta without any sexy / slutty *.* connotations, but this does
not mean that she was the xclusive owner of such a voice. Asha's had more
naughtiness,but in addition more range and cpability. Asha's undeniable forte
was to be able to integrate laughter into the lines of a song. In "Jaanu
jaanu ri" SDB wanted both Geeta and Asha to do it , but Geeta failed. BTW, the
Asha- geeta number Thandi thandi hawa is simply out of the world - an old
OPN number. Anyone heard of it ?
One more interesting thing I read in OPN's intervie is his opinion on
MD's bias towards Lata : he said that even R. D. Burman saved his best numbers for
her. Any comments , any one ? Substantiate ? I think it is in general
true he used A.'s voice only for peppy nos. (shows his good sense at least in not
letting lata touch them) but in a film
like Ijaazat where every song was sung by Asha the result was a tremendous
success. i must say Khushboo was a place where their voices were used perfectly -
Lata's Do naino men ,and asha's Ghar jaayegi and Bechara dil kya kare were
a golden match of voice with song.
I
want to personally applaud and commend the chap who said that " Aa jaane jaa ",
Lata's only cabaret no. was sung like a prarthana - how pungently
and succinctly put- couldn't agree more.
I think Lata for masti songs like Jai jai shiv shankar was a big no-no.
The version by asha on the album "Rahul and I" sounds so arresting, I can't
even recall how the original sounds by Lata.
6) If you want to measure Asha with lata as a yardstick, IMHO, it's like
measuring a parsec using a footrule - painful, i think :-)
As someone said, RMIM is getting more and more entertaining by the day.
Partially thanks to the efforts of ravi. Please don't vitiate it by wilful
impersonation - all attacks should be taken in good sport , IMHO (I'm rel. new
to the ng, but this is what I understood from an old post in the ng re: the Rafi-KKKlan
wars)
(In light vein ) Could someone elaborate on the method of judging a person's
age from his posts . So far the accuracy cited was +- 1 year- is it
possible to do even better (such as guessing the birthdate perhaps ?):-)
arunabha_s._roy
Arunabha
In article <3396DDD7...@etsd.ml.com>, Anil says...
>
>Hi Arunabha (what a nice name!),
Why, thank you very much :-)
>Being a Lata fan (warning: I'm totally biased), I HAD to respond:-):-)
Yes, i can see that.
What a pity ! INSPITE of the fact you like my name , too :-)
>>
>Asha has sung twice as many songs as Lata has, and that makes me
>wonder why A. fans say that she wasn't given enough "opportunity".
Hmmm I'm surprised. well, that means the no. of vamp songs is comparable
to the number of heroine songs. The vamp songs were so difficult to sing, too
and L. would not sing them, so Asha got a fair no. I guess. She wasn't
given enough opp. in terms of "good " heroine songs, in comparison, I would say.
>Was it a 'bais' or just good sense by the composers to pick the
>better singer?
Yes, i did anticipate this and added a comment specifically (I don't think so)
for that reason.
>
>The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
>to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
>song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said). Give me
>one example of something similar to 'betaab dil ki tamanna..' or
>'kitni akeli tanha si lagi..'. Geeta sung Asha-like songs, but her
>voice never had that kind of dubious quality like Asha's.
Enough anguish has been expressed over this gross injustice. So, no more.
Asha won awards for Umraoo Jaan , you can try "Khaali haath shaam ayi hai or mera kuchh samaan
from Ijaazat(also award winning) , or the many excellent non film ghazal
albums, Meraj e ghazal, Dil padosi hai . She doesn't sound bazaru; how can
you give this adjective to a voice? If tawaifs sing thumris well, their voice will
still be good, it's only their profession that is bazaru. I thinkthe adjective just
does not apply to voices.(Some one else said this too)
>
>> just in the same pure tone as Chaand phi nikla or Tera mera pyaar amar- there was
>> a total lack of the required feeling. However, not to use the brahmastra, in my
>
>A total lack of feeling in 'chand phir nikla...'? Poor SDB must turn
>in his grave at such an accusation! Lata's voice, besides having the
>awesome 'mithaas' and preciseness, she had as much 'soz' as anyone else,
>if not more - specially her sad and romantic songs.
;-) Not SDB's fault - accha sur tayaar karne ka kaam to usne theek tarah se kiya.
How could he evoke emotions that Lata's voice didn't have in the first place ?
Plus, this was the category of songs suitable to Lata's one emotion and it did sound
good. No grave-turning required.:-)
He did wondersin training asha though, in this respect.(voice control and soz)
>That is certainly a biased opinion. Just one example: imagine Asha
>singing 'aaja re pardesi..' YUCK!
>
Actually i don't like that song much, so my comment will not be useful to you.
I agree with another person who imagined the above and said they would sound equally
good.
>> Another point on which Asha is IMHO (well, IMHO is implicit throughout) better
>> is her diction. lata's voice, consequently, sounds bad in ghazals , other than
>
>How about all those ghazals Lata did for MM, Naushad, Roshan & CR?
>Taking one example from each composer, I will ask you to name any
>Asha ghazals that are better (not equally good):
> 'unko yeh shikayat hai'
> 'khuda nigehaba ho tumhara'
> 'rahate the kabhi jinke dil mein'
> 'mujhse mat pooch mere isqh mein'
>These are all popular ghazals. Also, tell me in which of these songs
>is the 'soz' missing?
>
Justlike another person said , I'm inclined to say "all of them" :-) At the
cost of my keyboard becoming hoarse, these were again good-sounding film songs
, but are 1) standard Lata emoting 2) too filmi - do not get you into the
ghazal mood : in short, good as songs, not much as ghazals.
>
>Asha's work with SDB was totally outstanding, but SDB still PREFERED
>Lata. He called Lata his 'first serve' with whom he can serve 'aces',
>as he very often did. Asha was his 'second serve'.
He didn't realize the power hidden in his second serve , then :-)
Actually to be fair, I think when he did work with Asha , he did wonders;
still prob. he never appreciated them as much.
>> BTW who do you think does a better job in these L- A duets ? (open question, this
>> is not meant to be rhetorical if it sounds that way )
>> 1) Mere mehboob me kya nahin, kya nahin
>> 2) Man kyon bahka re bahka aadhi raat ko
>> 3) Aye kash kisi deewane ko, humse bhi mohabbat ho jaaye.
>In most of their 'good' duets, they both come off equally good and in
>very few of them, one has the advantage over the other.
Wow, coming from a Lata fan , this equating of the two is great news :-) though
we Asha fans know better :-)
>>
>I don't think anyone takes her lightly. She has gotten her due, even
>though her fans might not think so.
Really ? ! I'm amazed ! First you say her voice is *&$5#! * ++, and then make
this remark. Is THIS her just due, in your opinion ?
>
>As far as I am concerend, I think Asha is a great singer, but she
>never was, is not and never will be a Lata. Sorry!
I agree wholeheartedly with you, (don't we, all Asha fans ;-) ?) Only, we
aren't sorry, we're pos. HAPPY about it !
Finally, it's time for the sign off on RMIM/Ramli threads that entertains me so much
ASHA RULES ! :-)
Thanks,
Arunabha
Arunabha
Why, thank you very much :-)
>Being a Lata fan (warning: I'm totally biased), I HAD to respond:-):-)
Yes, i can see that.
What a pity ! INSPITE of the fact you like my name , too :-)
>>
>Asha has sung twice as many songs as Lata has, and that makes me
>wonder why A. fans say that she wasn't given enough "opportunity".
Hmmm I'm surprised. well, that means the no. of vamp songs is comparable
to the number of heroine songs. The vamp songs were so difficult to sing, too
and L. would not sing them, so Asha got a fair no. I guess. She wasn't
given enough opp. in terms of "good " heroine songs, in comparison, I would say.
>Was it a 'bais' or just good sense by the composers to pick the
>better singer?
Yes, i did anticipate this and added a comment specifically (I don't think so)
for that reason.
>
>The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
>to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
>song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said). Give me
>one example of something similar to 'betaab dil ki tamanna..' or
>'kitni akeli tanha si lagi..'. Geeta sung Asha-like songs, but her
>voice never had that kind of dubious quality like Asha's.
Enough anguish has been expressed over this gross injustice. So, no more.
Asha won awards for Umraoo Jaan , you can try "Khaali haath shaam ayi hai or mera kuchh samaan
from Ijaazat(also award winning) , or the many excellent non film ghazal
albums, Meraj e ghazal, Dil padosi hai . She doesn't sound bazaru; how can
you give this adjective to a voice? If tawaifs sing thumris well, their voice will
still be good, it's only their profession that is bazaru. I thinkthe adjective just
does not apply to voices.(Some one else said this too)
>
>> just in the same pure tone as Chaand phi nikla or Tera mera pyaar amar- there was
>> a total lack of the required feeling. However, not to use the brahmastra, in my
>
>A total lack of feeling in 'chand phir nikla...'? Poor SDB must turn
>in his grave at such an accusation! Lata's voice, besides having the
>awesome 'mithaas' and preciseness, she had as much 'soz' as anyone else,
>if not more - specially her sad and romantic songs.
;-) Not SDB's fault - accha sur tayaar karne ka kaam to usne theek tarah se kiya.
How could he evoke emotions that Lata's voice didn't have in the first place ?
Plus, this was the category of songs suitable to Lata's one emotion and it did sound
good. No grave-turning required.:-)
He did wondersin training asha though, in this respect.(voice control and soz)
>That is certainly a biased opinion. Just one example: imagine Asha
>singing 'aaja re pardesi..' YUCK!
>
Actually i don't like that song much, so my comment will not be useful to you.
I agree with another person who imagined the above and said they would sound equally
good.
>> Another point on which Asha is IMHO (well, IMHO is implicit throughout) better
>> is her diction. lata's voice, consequently, sounds bad in ghazals , other than
>
>How about all those ghazals Lata did for MM, Naushad, Roshan & CR?
>Taking one example from each composer, I will ask you to name any
>Asha ghazals that are better (not equally good):
> 'unko yeh shikayat hai'
> 'khuda nigehaba ho tumhara'
> 'rahate the kabhi jinke dil mein'
> 'mujhse mat pooch mere isqh mein'
>These are all popular ghazals. Also, tell me in which of these songs
>is the 'soz' missing?
>
Justlike another person said , I'm inclined to say "all of them" :-) At the
cost of my keyboard becoming hoarse, these were again good-sounding film songs
, but are 1) standard Lata emoting 2) too filmi - do not get you into the
ghazal mood : in short, good as songs, not much as ghazals.
>
>Asha's work with SDB was totally outstanding, but SDB still PREFERED
>Lata. He called Lata his 'first serve' with whom he can serve 'aces',
>as he very often did. Asha was his 'second serve'.
He didn't realize the power hidden in his second serve , then :-)
Actually to be fair, I think when he did work with Asha , he did wonders;
still prob. he never appreciated them as much.
>> BTW who do you think does a better job in these L- A duets ? (open question, this
>> is not meant to be rhetorical if it sounds that way )
>> 1) Mere mehboob me kya nahin, kya nahin
>> 2) Man kyon bahka re bahka aadhi raat ko
>> 3) Aye kash kisi deewane ko, humse bhi mohabbat ho jaaye.
>In most of their 'good' duets, they both come off equally good and in
>very few of them, one has the advantage over the other.
Wow, coming from a Lata fan , this equating of the two is great news :-) though
we Asha fans know better :-)
>>
>I don't think anyone takes her lightly. She has gotten her due, even
>though her fans might not think so.
Really ? ! I'm amazed ! First you say her voice is *&$5#! * ++, and then make
this remark. Is THIS her just due, in your opinion ?
>
>As far as I am concerend, I think Asha is a great singer, but she
>never was, is not and never will be a Lata. Sorry!
I agree wholeheartedly with you, (don't we, all Asha fans ;-) ?) Only, we
Nitin Sharma
Pradeep Dubey (pra...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
: With same qualifiers as Chetan's above, I would like to add the following.
: With respect to Lata, Asha looses seriously in the 'pronounication' department.
: I am yet to find a Lata song where she has mispronounced a word. However,
: here are at least three from Asha:
Well, if what you say is really true, the MD is more to be blamed!
He shouldnt have let this pass and instead insisted on a retake.
(unless he tried, and asha just couldnt get it right, which I think
would be unlikely)
-nitin
Nitin Sharma
Anil Hingorani (ahi...@etsd.ml.com) wrote:
: Being a Lata fan (warning: I'm totally biased), I HAD to respond:-):-)
And it shows! :-) I dont mean it in a bad way. Its always great
to see people so passionately root for their heroes.
: Asha has sung twice as many songs as Lata has, and that makes me
: wonder why A. fans say that she wasn't given enough "opportunity".
Because Lata got all the good ones! MD's used to reserve
their best compositions for Lata. Some went even further - they'd
compose their best with Lata's voice in mind!
So, I think there's little doubt Asha had to fight against heavy
odds. She was always a second choice. From her viewpoint, it was
terribly unfair to her. Ant it always rankled her.
But from the MD's viewpoint, well they thought only Lata could
do full justice to their compositions. And hearing those Lata songs,
boy, can you really blame them!
: The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
: to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
: song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said). Give me
Anyone who can carry off 'abki baras bhej bhaiya ka babul..'
with such remarkable intensity must be a great singer. To dismiss
Asha's voice as being 'bazaaru' is not being unfair to Asha.
Its being cruel!
:
: > I Just feel that Asha should not be taken lightly, that's all. Each to his own.
: >
I agree with Arunabha.
: As far as I am concerend, I think Asha is a great singer, but she
: never was, is not and never will be a Lata. Sorry!
I agree with you also!
(see, I can be a diplomat too :-))
-nitin
Snehal B. Oza
>> On the topic , I think (again much reiterated) that Asha's voice conveys emotion
>> much better. (I'm not talking of chirpiness and frothy vivacity only- that is
>> an Asha fan's Brahmastra , to borrow a term from the Rafians).
>The only emotion in Asha's singing is that of sexy sluttiness(no offense
>to Asha or anyone else). I have yet to hear her sing a nice sensual
>song where she doesn't sound "bazaruu" (as Naushad saab said). Give me
>one example of something similar to 'betaab dil ki tamanna..' or
>'kitni akeli tanha si lagi..'. Geeta sung Asha-like songs, but her
>voice never had that kind of dubious quality like Asha's.
Anil, you were carried away while writing above, weren't you ? I didn't want
to jump into this nice thread. I must say here, I liked Arunabh's article. Now
let turn to "sexy sluttiness". What Naushad felt is IMO, unrelevant here. I
remember reading about Lata's refusal to sing 'Main Bahaaron Ki Natkhat Rani'
which went to Asha. I don't find her singing as bad as you put it. We have
'Aayie Meherbaan' to compare to 'Mera Naam Chin Chinchu'. In both songs, I don't
find anything that lowers dignity or which is "bad". And these are two if her
club songs. What about 'Dharati Se Door Gore' with Geeta Roy? It's pure divine
singing by either singers. I am sure Lata couldn't have helped in anyway
bringing that kind of height to this song. Only Asha could do that (along with
Geeta). Here, one must also note that Sajjad Hussain used say that only 'Lata
sings perfect'. Despite such comments he had to chose Asha and Geeta. Can you
trace any "sexy sluttiness" in 'Zumati Hai Nazar Zumataa Hai Pyaar' ? I can
list many expamples but that won't serve any purpose.
Coming to Naushad: It's unfortunate NAushad should say that. I believe he
wasted his opportunity.
>That is certainly a biased opinion. Just one example: imagine Asha
>singing 'aaja re pardesi..' YUCK!
I can imagine :) It's pleasant! :)
>> Another point on which Asha is IMHO (well, IMHO is implicit throughout) better
>> is her diction. lata's voice, consequently, sounds bad in ghazals , other than
>How about all those ghazals Lata did for MM, Naushad, Roshan & CR?
>Taking one example from each composer, I will ask you to name any
>Asha ghazals that are better (not equally good):
> 'unko yeh shikayat hai'
> 'khuda nigehaba ho tumhara'
> 'rahate the kabhi jinke dil mein'
> 'mujhse mat pooch mere isqh mein'
>These are all popular ghazals. Also, tell me in which of these songs
>is the 'soz' missing?
I suppose Arunabh is talking about "classical" style and not filmi style of
gazal singing. All above gazals are well sung, no doubt. But I don't find the
tune I look for in them. It's no differnt than any other geet. I think Lata has
sung few gazals (outside films) and none are worth mentioning.
>Bottom line: Whether you like it or not, Lata is still used as a
>yardstick to measure other singers, including Asha.
That may be true; but this yardstick is just small to measure things like
Asha, Geeta, Noorjahan, Raj Kumari, Kanan Devi etc.
>As far as I am concerend, I think Asha is a great singer, but she
>never was, is not and never will be a Lata. Sorry!
I am happy with that! You know why ? Lemme write a similar line:
'... Himalay never was, is not and never will be the Vindhyaachal. Sorry!' :))
Regards,
Snehal
>Anil
Anil Hingorani
Hi All,
Veena S Nayak wrote:
>
<snip>
> The problem lies not in Asha's singing but in the
> mentality displayed by the likes of Naushad saab: any
> woman with a hint of sexuality in her must be a slut.
I am real sorry about using the word 'sluttiness' in my last post.
I wasn't meant to be a reflection an Asha or her personality but that
was the best way I could express my feelings about her 'voice quality'.
Although it is true that she has many songs that do not have this
dubious quality, there are way too many that do have it - and that
is MY major problem with Asha. It is hard for me to understand why
an artist of her calibre could not take the effort to get rid of it.
Anyways, I should have been more sensitive about my language, even
though I wasn't trying to be mean or trying to hurt anyone. I do
apologize to whoever felt badly.
Cheers,
Anil
Pradeep Dubey
Agree to some extent. But I really doubt that our MDs: RDB, SDB, Salil, etc.
knew the exact pronounciations themselves. It's the responsibility
of Lyricist+MD together to make sure the surs and swars have been rendered
properly by the singer. There are numerous such goof-ups in hindi film songs.
I can only explain these with a faulty protocol. This refers to the protocol
whereby the lyricist doesn't get to 'approve' the final version.
But simply the MD does. Am I wrong in assuming that the lyricist is not
necessarily present in the multiple takes/retakes with MD?
Pradeep
|>
|> -nitin
Hindimidi
BTW are your parents, Arun and Abha?
Surendra
vven...@pcocd2.intel.com
Arunabha says:
=>4) All of Lata's ghazals sound like her bhajans like her
=>patriotic songs like her loris like her chhed chhad songs like
=>her.... even Lata fans have agreed. So why should I add any
=>more. The Lata ghazals someone mentioned are OK, but as someone
=>else remarked they do not have the emotion conveyed by Asha .I'm
=>sure the person who mentioned "Meraj-e- ghazal " will agree with
=>me whole heartedly listen to roodaad e mohabbat kya kahiye ,
=>hairaton ke silsile , or any other ghazal from that
=>collection. terfific. And no, the mood is not slutty, sexy, or
=>even sensual, it is different. And BTW ghazals arew supposed to
=>be love songs , not pious bhajans- so why do you grudge talent
=>by giving it names like sexy slutty. BTW, I enjoy her songs
=>which are supp. to give this emotion too she makes them a
=>different experience. Of course, this is not to say EVERY song
=>she belts out is good. And Lata for soz - puhleeze - I AM
=>conceding that her voice has emotion, only it's that same old
=>one each and every time. Aao na gale lagao na , BTW has Tanuja ,
=>and not Helen, IMHO.
Common now. :) Lata was bad at conveying emotions? It is simply
not true. She has had her bad days just like Asha has had her
bad days. "Aao na gale lag jao na" is an LP compostion and it
is mostly LP's fault if the song doesn't convey the right
emotion.
Let me refer to the music of "Caravan". I fell in love with
Aruna Irani's character in the film. She is unabashedly in love
with the character played by Jeetendra and does her best to
attract his attention. And she looks simply stunning and sexy.
Pity she has to die at the end. Here are the songs of
"Caravan":
piya tu ab toh aaja -- ASHA for Helen
goriya kahaan tera des re -- ASHA for Aruna Irani
dilbar dil se pyaare -- LATA for Aruna Irani
chadti jawaani meri chaal mastaani -- LATA for Aruna Irani
kitna pyaara waada hai -- LATA for Asha Parekh
ab jo mile hain toh baahon mein -- ASHA for BOTH Aruna
Irani and Asha Parekh
daiya yeh main kahaan aa phasi -- ASHA for Asha Parekh
Both Lata and Asha playback for Aruna Irani in the film. But it
is Lata's "dilbar dil se pyaare" that I am cannot resist
rewinding atleast 5 times before proceeding. I think she sounds
very cute - her voice conveys gentle seductive coaxing,
poutiness, indulgence, all rolled into one great song. Hope it
is not too dubious a song to call great! :)
I can't resist but post the lyrics after listening to it atleast a
dozen times yesterday ..
dilbar ...haan dilbar
dilbar ...haan dilbar
dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar
dil ki sunta ja re ..dilbar
saari duniya haari humse
hum tujhpe dil haare ..dilbar
dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar ...
Arey Oooooooooo....
yak yak din ginti rahoon sada
jab se main tujh pe hui fida
sunta hai re mahuva
tu hi mera na hua
nahin jag mein kya nahin hota re ..hey hey
dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar ...
Arey Oooooooooo....
tak tak rahun chunari hari hari
dikhlaaun baiyaan bhari bhari
mohe chhu le sajna
gussa kyon hai itna
jo mar rahe usko kyon maare ..hey hey
dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar ...
Arey Oooooooooo....
nas nas meri sulage aise piya
jale ban ki lakadi jaise piya
kyun sulgaye mujhko
meri lag jaaye tujhko
rahe tu bhi jalta bujhta re.. hey hey
dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar ...
dilbar dil se pyaar ..dilbar
And hey, I think Lata is extremely vivacious in "Bhai batoor
bhai batoor ab jainge kitni door" in "Padosan" in keeping with
the vivacity of Saira Bano's character. Asha couldn't have
done any better, in my opinion!
Vandana.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Intel.
--
sm...@lehigh.edu
In article <5n7npa$6...@drn.zippo.com>, Arunabha S. Roy writes:
>4) All of Lata's ghazals sound like her bhajans like her patriotic songs
>like her loris like her chhed chhad songs like her.... even Lata fans have
>agreed. So why should I add any more.
Let's not get carried away here. Lata has plenty of excellent GHazals to her
credit and they don't all sound the same. "Aaj socha to aansu bhar aae..",
"Haal-e-dil man kya kahun...", "Mujhse mat pooch mere ishq me kya rakha
hai..", etc. are all GHazals and they are quite different.
>And BTW ghazals arew supposed to be love songs ,
Not necessarily true for filmi GHazals. They may be philosophical too. None of
the following GHazals can be categorized as a love song:
1. Main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya
2. Sansar se bhaage phirte ho, Bhagwan ko tum kya paaoge
3. Na munh chhupaake jio, aur na sar jhukaake jio
>5) Diction: I can assure you that Asha has in the songs she has sung, pronounce
Diction is one area where Lata is second to none. Whether it is the pure
Urdu "Bekas pe karam keejie..." or the folksy "Do hanson ka joRa bichhaR gayo
re...", Lata is always perfect.
>One more interesting thing I read in OPN's intervie is his opinion on
>MD's bias towards Lata : he said that even R. D. Burman saved his best numbers
>for her. Any comments , any one ? Substantiate ? I think it is in general
>true he used A.'s voice only for peppy nos. (shows his good sense at least
>in not letting lata touch them)
How about his "bad sense" in not letting Asha touch any of his good tunes ?
For instance, in Ghar, Lata gets to sing "Aajkal paaon..", "Tere bina jiya
jaae na.." and "Aapki aankhon me kuchh..." while Asha is made to go "tururutu"
in the forgettable "Botal se ek baat chali hai..." with Rafi.
>but in a film
>like Ijaazat where every song was sung by Asha the result was a tremendous
Ijaazat came way after Lata was past her prime.
>success. i must say Khushboo was a place where their voices were used perfectly
>Lata's Do naino men ,and asha's Ghar jaayegi and Bechara dil kya kare were
>a golden match of voice with song.
I agree here... can't imagine the Asha songs in any other voice.
>and succinctly put- couldn't agree more.
>I think Lata for masti songs like Jai jai shiv shankar was a big no-no.
Lata sounds much better in the other song from the same movie "Aaj mohabbat
bandh hai..." There are a lot of good masti bhare songs of Lata, esp. her
duets.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
*****************************************************************************
Lines for the day:
Ye paap hai kya ye punya hai kya, reeton par dharm ki mohren hain
Yug yug me badalte dharmon ko, kaise aadarsh banaoge
Sahir in "Sansaar se bhage phirte ho, Bhagwan ko tum kya paaoge..."
*****************************************************************************
SSS
I am a great fan of Indian music but have very limited understanding of
Hindi. I love music a lot and have become a hugh fan of Asha Bhosle. I also
love Lata's songs. I find it very true that Asha Bhosle has tremendous talent
and versatility. Lata is perfect at the standards. However as they have grown
older Asha's voice has developed whereas Lata's has become shriller and
remains very thin. A good comparison of their voices and talent today is
"Kucch na Kaho" (Lata's from the soundtrack and Asha's on "Rahul & I").
Asha's rendition is much better IMHO, her voice is very full-bodied (like
some of the better Western singers) and her inflexions are unique and fresh
wheras Lata's was not overly impressive. Asha does a version of this song in
her concerts that is simply divine. I think true testimony to the respect for
Asha's talent worldwide is the demand for collaborations with her. SOme of
these are:
1. Boy George - Bow Down Mister.
2. Ghulam Ali
3. Ali Akbar Khan
4. Adnan Sami Khan (Sargam) - Some beautiful songs and her voice on this CD
is awesome.
4. Lezz Lewis.
I think she is definitely much better than Lata at her classical renditions.
On "Legacy - with Ali Akbar Khan" she proves that even at this age she is
more than capable of learning and perfecting new skills. This album was
nominated for a Grammy last year.
Arunabha
In article <19970606145...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, hind...@aol.com says...
>
>BTW are your parents, Arun and Abha?
>
>Surendra
Hi Surendra,
No, for heaven's sake no :-) Arunabha is a composite Bengali name meaning
Arun ki aabha (I'm sure you know that, just adding for sake of completeness)
My parents' names do not even begin with A. It's a not that common Bengali
name.
Arunabha
Arunabha
Hi Vandana,
>
>Common now. :) Lata was bad at conveying emotions? It is simply
>not true. She has had her bad days just like Asha has had her
>bad days. "Aao na gale lag jao na" is an LP compostion and it
>is mostly LP's fault if the song doesn't convey the right
>emotion.
I guess I got carried over too to an extent: but I did repeatedly say that
Lata's good songs till ~ 1970 were great.
You don't like aao na gale lag jao na ? Really ? Is that YOUR opinion
or INTEL's :-) ;-)
Actually, Asha's
remix version (Rahul And I)is head and shoulders over the original which is somewhat
slow for conveying the mood. Hey, this is an RD composition, then, not LP!!!
Listen to the remix version- it's really strong and heady.
>
>Both Lata and Asha playback for Aruna Irani in the film. But it
>is Lata's "dilbar dil se pyaare" that I am cannot resist
>rewinding atleast 5 times before proceeding. I think she sounds
>very cute - her voice conveys gentle seductive coaxing,
>poutiness, indulgence, all rolled into one great song. Hope it
>is not too dubious a song to call great! :)
>
Somehow I always thought it was Hema malini who danced to Dilbar dil se
pyare :-) - better get my eyes checked :-)
Here the Asha fan must agree. :-( Dilbar dil se pyaare is simply TOOOOOOOOO
good. And I MUST after all my previous posts, accede that she stepped out of
her "narrow bandwidth" in this song, to great effect. I haven't heard the
other songs except Piya too and Kitna pyaara waada - the second of these was
such an idiotic song, esp. picturization wise , It was a torture to
watch it on TV without the facility of Fast forward. I didn't like
Piya too either (I don't like many of the popular Asha nos...)
But I think Asha would have put some oomph into "dil hum tujhpe haare"
But I give this song an A+ (to be shared by MD + Singer) . Isn't the part
where she goes hey, hey... delightful?
>And hey, I think Lata is extremely vivacious in "Bhai batoor
>bhai batoor ab jainge kitni door" in "Padosan" in keeping with
>the vivacity of Saira Bano's character. Asha couldn't have
>done any better, in my opinion!
I hate all the songs of Padosan (people will think I am insane, given
the p[opularity of the songs) , so no use commenting here.
>Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of
>Intel.
>
>
I really like your disclaimer : does INTEL require that you put this ? Just
curious .
Arunabha
karm...@hotmail.com
In response to Asha's voice being branded as having nothing more than "sexy sluttiness"
I came to remember of a wonderful Asha show in Bangalore somewhere in Feb 96, where
Ashaji chose a line and sung that expressing hajaar emotions like love, pain, devotion (u
would feel you were listning to a standard bhajan), sensuality etc etc. Hearing that short
rendition, I can never brand Asha to what she has been called. Asha *is* versatile and
and has full control of her voice. All that she has sung is because she was *supposed*
to sing it that way. I dont think Lata would sound good in as many emotions as Asha could
portray even if the entire sond was "technically" sung right.
I would like to post a few bhajans and abhangas from Asha shortly to refute some
allegations about her voice.
more later,
-Kedar
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Arunabha, S., Roy wrote:
> 1) When i mentioned that Lata had a narrow bandwidth, obviously I was not
> talking about vocal (as in musical tone) range. She is credited to have HAD
> mastery of 3 1/2 octaves, i think
Where does this piece of info come from? Does anybody have a
number for Asha? I remember Sanjeev Ramabhadran saying that
one Kishore number was 3 1/3 octaves {How about that for
KK being classical?? :)}
> 4) All of Lata's ghazals sound like her bhajans like her patriotic songs
What??!! Don't force the Lata fans to come out with their
Brahmaastra (:) ) - How Nehru cried on listening to Ae mere watan
ke logoN. {zara logon karo apni machine par :)}
This promises to become a serious Lata vs. Asha kabaddi match. :) :)
Which is great, imo... Was tired of KK fights with the "6 or
perhaps 7 year olds"... :) :) {C'mon, RaviK, be a sport... no flames :)}
> Aao na gale
> lagao na , BTW has Tanuja , and not Helen, IMHO.
Nope, the falcon besides being patient, can have a very unerring
sense of sight too. Aaao na, gale lagaa lo na *is* picturized on
a delectable looking Helen.... where the delectability is lost on
Rajesh Khanna as he is blind in the movie, at that time... :)
> 5) Diction: I can assure you that Asha has in the songs she has sung, pronounced zindagi
> and shahri properly, as well as their counterparts sahri (koi sahri babu dil
> lahri babu) . I'm sure your conjecture about her
> having sung for some village belle must be true.
Perhaps this will make it to the jury stage in the Washington courts. :)
With Pradeep filling in as the D. A. :)
> 6) The comment "Even" Geeta roy sure drew a lot of flak. :-)
> No doubt Geeta's voice had shokhi
> and chanchalta , but this does
> not mean that she was the xclusive owner of such a voice. Asha's had more
> naughtiness,but in addition more range and cpability.
Please- no Geeta vs. AshaB fights.... Let's get done with Lata first,
wot?? :)
Later,
Ikram.
Vandana
In article <5n9q4m$h...@drn.zippo.com>, Arunabha says...
>>Common now. :) Lata was bad at conveying emotions? It is simply
>>not true. She has had her bad days just like Asha has had her
>>bad days. "Aao na gale lag jao na" is an LP compostion and it
>>is mostly LP's fault if the song doesn't convey the right
>>emotion.
Oops, I made a mistake. I meant "Aa jaanejaan" and not "Aao na gale lag
jao na". Sorry.
>I guess I got carried over too to an extent: but I did repeatedly say that
>Lata's good songs till ~ 1970 were great.
>
>You don't like aao na gale lag jao na ? Really ? Is that YOUR opinion
>or INTEL's :-) ;-)
>Actually, Asha's
>remix version (Rahul And I)is head and shoulders over the original which is somewhat
>slow for conveying the mood. Hey, this is an RD composition, then, not LP!!!
>Listen to the remix version- it's really strong and heady.
>
>
>Here the Asha fan must agree. :-( Dilbar dil se pyaare is simply TOOOOOOOOO
>good. And I MUST after all my previous posts, accede that she stepped out of
>her "narrow bandwidth" in this song, to great effect. I haven't heard the
>other songs except Piya too and Kitna pyaara waada - the second of these was
>such an idiotic song, esp. picturization wise , It was a torture to
>watch it on TV without the facility of Fast forward. I didn't like
>Piya too either (I don't like many of the popular Asha nos...)
>But I think Asha would have put some oomph into "dil hum tujhpe haare"
>But I give this song an A+ (to be shared by MD + Singer) . Isn't the part
>where she goes hey, hey... delightful?
Yes, also when she does 'leharii nainon waale, lehari lehari nainon waale" which
I forgot to include in the lyrics.
>>And hey, I think Lata is extremely vivacious in "Bhai batoor
>>bhai batoor ab jainge kitni door" in "Padosan" in keeping with
>>the vivacity of Saira Bano's character. Asha couldn't have
>>done any better, in my opinion!
>
>I hate all the songs of Padosan (people will think I am insane, given
>the p[opularity of the songs) , so no use commenting here.
It happens sometimes. Similarly people will certainly think I am insane, but
I do not like Silsila, Chandini, Lamhe very much.
>>Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of
>>Intel.
>>
>>
>I really like your disclaimer : does INTEL require that you put this ? Just
>curious .
Yes. So here goes.
Vandana.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Arunabha
Hi,
>
>Let's not get carried away here. Lata has plenty of excellent GHazals to her
>credit and they don't all sound the same. "Aaj socha to aansu bhar aae..",
>"Haal-e-dil man kya kahun...", "Mujhse mat pooch mere ishq me kya rakha
>hai..", etc. are all GHazals and they are quite different.
>
OK, I'll agree that these are good, (it is only IMHO that Lata does not
convey the mood of a ghazal quite effectively. What one might mean by the
mood of a ghazal is also subjective, so it is natural that you and others may
disagree . IMHO Chitra Singh , although less capable than L. in terms of vocal
athletics, probably, still brings out the mood of certain ghazals quite
well, something that Lata does not (IMHO, I emphasise) )
>>And BTW ghazals arew supposed to be love songs ,
>
>Not necessarily true for filmi GHazals. They may be philosophical too. None of
>the following GHazals can be categorized as a love song:
>
>1. Main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya
>2. Sansar se bhaage phirte ho, Bhagwan ko tum kya paaoge
>3. Na munh chhupaake jio, aur na sar jhukaake jio
>
Yup, you're right ! I recall the article in RMIM on Defn. of a ghazal. I supp.
these contain matla, radif, makhta, and the other two requirements (can't recall which)
I've heard onlky the first one, but I enjoy it as a lilting film song,
it never occurred ti\o me to be a ghazal. I supp. when I make subjective
comments about ghazals, I'm influenced by what dedicated ghazal albums contain
and not film versions. But, as I have admitted these views are subjective.
>>5) Diction: I can assure you that Asha has in the songs she has sung, pronounce
>
>Diction is one area where Lata is second to none. Whether it is the pure
>Urdu "Bekas pe karam keejie..." or the folksy "Do hanson ka joRa bichhaR gayo
>re...", Lata is always perfect.
Seconf\d to NONE ? Really . I can think of at least one person alive who'll
beg to differ - none other than the Yusuf sahab (Dilip K.) who made that comment
about her being a daal bhaat and not being able to render Urdu properly. I'm
sure his view will have changed substantially by now; just adding this in alight
vein :-)
I think Asha's rendition sounds to my (I'm no Urdu expert, so don't claim to
be one) as pleasing, actually more. She does not have any deep rooted accent, and i think
that much is enough (if she DOES make Urdu pron.errorrs they are prob. too subtle anyway
for me to detect so I enjoy her songs ab\nyway). I guess you might be the right
person to ask a qn. about Urdu , so here goes: I've noticed that some
manifestations of Urdu pron. in film songs are the kh sound (the khaariz waala kh and not
the khana wala kh) and the use of the f instead of ph sound (e.g. fir instead of phir)
. One more extremely difficult pron. I've noticed is the qu sound in words
like qaraar , beqaraar (Most groomed singers seem to do it in a way which ,
despite infinite attempts, I acnnot duplicate ) Do you know if this is a
special sound , and if alternate simple k sounds also exist ? This has
always puzzled me.
>
>How about his "bad sense" in not letting Asha touch any of his good tunes ?
>For instance, in Ghar, Lata gets to sing "Aajkal paaon..", "Tere bina jiya
>jaae na.." and "Aapki aankhon me kuchh..." while Asha is made to go "tururutu"
>in the forgettable "Botal se ek baat chali hai..." with Rafi.
Precisely, that's what I was trying to impress: even her own late husband
who gave her her best hits was not free from this (preference/bias - call it what you will)
I felt Lata sounded listless in aajkal paaon and aapki aankhon me (because
of this at first I didn't even like these great songs; all the credit
or almost all goes to KK for making aap ki aankhon sound good) In fact although
Lata sounds good in Tere bina jiya , it is largely due to RD's magiuc- every interlude
is filled with nuances of sheer magic. The same id\s true of raat akeli hai
of SDB - it would sound awful without ceratin delicate musical pieces in it-
I've heard Asha's version of it at a live recording , and it just comes
NOWHERE compared to the original) You're abs. right that Lata should
not have been given all the songs. Lata was past her prime here, too. Even in
Masoom there isn't a single Asha song. Asha could have done Tujhse naraaz better w/o
sounding aged and voice cracking (it's a pity, really spoils the excellent
music of this song) . Arati Mukherjee 's rendition of do naina aur ek kahani
too could be handled by Asha .Anyway, the pouint is made, so I need not belabour it.
>>but in a film
>>like Ijaazat where every song was sung by Asha the result was a tremendous
>
>Ijaazat came way after Lata was past her prime.
1986- yes. I'd like to know what peopole feel is the rought time when her voice
lost its youthful quality. I feel it was uptil 1970'ish OK.
>>success. i must say Khushboo was a place where their voices were used perfectly
>>Lata's Do naino men ,and asha's Ghar jaayegi and Bechara dil kya kare were
>>a golden match of voice with song.
>
>I agree here... can't imagine the Asha songs in any other voice.
>
>>
Toodle doo,
Arunabha
Note: Someone made a point of Asha's latest album, Legacy. It def. exhibits
her ability to learn even at this age, but I felt here, very sadly, that for the first time, that the signs
of age are beginning to show. Though she pulled off Rahul and I quite well.
I thought her version of Kuchh na kaho was a bit too slow for comfort,
though. The part of rahul and I that sets my nerves on edge is that idiot
Apache who puts rap (offensive and jarring ) to ruin Jaane jaa, Yeh ladka
hay allah, and several other songs. I wish that kalmua was never allowed in the first
place on the album. Was it a sales gimmick or what ?
Can the person who heard the CD " sangam " let me know what it was about ?
I too heard it was done with someone in pakistan, but don't know the kind of
music it was.Thanks.
Anil Hingorani
Hi Eveyone,
Nitin Sharma wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Anyone who can carry off 'abki baras bhej bhaiya ka babul..'
> with such remarkable intensity must be a great singer. To dismiss
> Asha's voice as being 'bazaaru' is not being unfair to Asha.
> Its being cruel!
>
It's unfortunate that all this controversy has been generated due
to my post, which was NEVER meant in the way people have taken it.
If you have been following my posts, I have always maintained that
Asha is a great singer and whether Varsha Bhonsale likes it or not,
I think is the most 'versatile' female singer.
I was wrong in using the word 'sluttiness' even though it was used
only to define the 'voice quality' and NOT the person. Sami, in his
post, said the same thing in a politically correct way by saying that
Asha's voice lacked 'sharafat'. That is all I was trying to say and I
still stand by that statement only because I hear it in wat too MANY
songs of her.
I believe what Naushad said was wrong but only because he chose the
wrong word too. Asha has had to fight prejudice most of her career,
and it is doesn't help when the likes of me quote the likes of Naushad
and carry this further. This prejudice was not even in my mind when I
wrote the original post but unfortunatley it came across very strong
when I read my own post and I apologized for it right away.
So please, I think it is time for all of us to give this a rest. I have
been 'bashed' enough for my wrong choice of one word:-):-) - I sincerely
wasn't trying to be mean or anything.
Cheers,
Anil
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Pradeep Dubey wrote:
> This refers to the protocol
> whereby the lyricist doesn't get to 'approve' the final version.
> But simply the MD does. Am I wrong in assuming that the lyricist is not
> necessarily present in the multiple takes/retakes with MD?
And sometimes, it seems that even the MD is not present!!! :)
Refer to Mubarak Begum's interview about SalilC walking in one fine
day and liking her singing... Or was it because he was late in
coming to his office?? :) :)
Later,
Ikram.
Chetan
Anurabha,
Ah, I finally get it :
1. Any song Lata (or anybody else) has ever sung, Asha could have sung at
least as well. As a result, RD and any other MD who ever gave any song to Lata
were wasting their and the listeners' time.
2. If Lata sings a song well, credit goes to the MD/lyrics/picturization etc.
If an Asha song is bad, blame the tune or the MD or the heroine or the
producer.
3. Although Lata sings (used to sing, I must say. Sigh) perfectly, her songs
are no good compared to the imperfect renditions of Asha.
4. Lata may pronounce Urdu/Hindi correctly but it is not pleasant to listen
to. When Asha mispronounces (oh lord, sacrilage) it is to deliberatly inject
an accent or a rural flavour or heroine-likeness (hey, Ms.Nimbupani *talks*
like that !)
5. The entire music industry conspired against Asha for *three decades* in
order to make her elder sister the most popular singer of Hindi filmdom. Of
course the industry is made up of imbeciles who don't know their varaN-bhaat
from their reshami kababs.
6. Time started some time in the 70s. Evidence of the existence of the late
60s exists but is not convincing.
Best regards
C
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Wotta movie!! Lost out to SJ's Mera Naam Joker in the FF.... Even
tho' I love 'jaane kahaaN ga'e ', I still think that for overall
genius, this movie deserved the FF. One of these days, we should
make a long list ('short' lists are not allowed :) ) of the
deserving films of RDB, preferably by somebody whose name isn't RaviK.
:)
> Here are the songs of
> "Caravan":
{with all male singers arbitrarily omitted :) }
> piya tu ab toh aaja -- ASHA for Helen
> goriya kahaan tera des re -- ASHA for Aruna Irani
> dilbar dil se pyaare -- LATA for Aruna Irani
> chadti jawaani meri chaal mastaani -- LATA for Aruna Irani
> kitna pyaara waada hai -- LATA for Asha Parekh
> ab jo mile hain toh baahon mein -- ASHA for BOTH Aruna
> Irani and Asha Parekh
> daiya yeh main kahaan aa phasi -- ASHA for Asha Parekh
>
>
Can't resist adding that 'ab jo mile haiN' is an excellent example of
AshaB changing her voice for AshaP. :) I *love* the quaver she gives
to 'tu hai havaa, sholaa hooN maiN'. And changes her voice quality for
that stanza....
And I also love the 'ooiii' that Lata does in 'ChaD.htii javaani', tho'
it's not the same as GeetaD going 'ooiii' in 'dekh ke akeli mohe
barka sataa'e ' imo... :) {Another request - make a list of songs
which have the word 'ooiii' in it... I can think of
"ooiii maaN, ooiii maaN, yeh kya ho gaya"
"ooiii amma, ooiii amma, mushkil yeh kya ho gaii"
"ooiii ooiii" (or was it "cooiii cooiii" from a song in 'Star'??)
besides the above :)}
Some minor corrections to the song lyrics follow...
Later,
Ikram.
>
> dilbar ...haan dilbar
> dilbar ...haan dilbar
> dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar
> dil ki sunta ja re ..dilbar
> saari duniya haari humse
> hum tujhpe dil haare ..dilbar
> dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar ...
> Arey Oooooooooo....
> yak yak din ginti rahoon sada
> jab se main tujh pe hui fida
> sunta hai re mahuva
~~~~~~
==> babuaa
>
> tu hi mera na hua
> nahin jag mein kya nahin hota re ..hey hey
> dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar ...
> Arey Oooooooooo....
> tak tak rahun chunari hari hari
> dikhlaaun baiyaan bhari bhari
> mohe chhu le sajna
> gussa kyon hai itna
> jo mar rahe usko kyon maare ..hey hey
~~~~
==> rahii
> dilbar dil se pyaare ..dilbar ...
> Arey Oooooooooo....
> nas nas meri sulage aise piya
> jale ban ki lakadi jaise piya
> kyun sulgaye mujhko
> meri lag jaaye tujhko
==> I quite like that line 'meri lag jaa'e tujhko'... No ostensible
subject... :)
Balaji A.S. Murthy
In article <5n7hmn$f...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu says...
>
>BTW, this(whether Suman sang for O.P.) is a general query and I am very
>interested to know the answer to this one.
Hi,
Following is from Vish(vi...@visigenic.com)....
- Balaji
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't believe Suman ever sang for OP. The closest
she ever got was with a movie called MANGU where
Mohammed Shafi (later assistant to Ghulam Mohd and
Naushad and even Khaiyyaam on occasion) got upstaged
by the gatecrashing success of AAR PAAR and MR&MRS...
Some of the Mohd Shafi songs in the movie are by
Suman. Likewise, there was a Shammi-Geeta Bali
movie (MEHBOOBA) in the same timeframe where the
producer finally asked Roshan to leave to make room
for this new phenomenon. Even there, some of the
Roshan songs are in Lata's voice. MANGU and MEHBOOBA
also led to Lata leading a bitter crusade against
"unprofessional" composers.
OP has however used voices other than Asha, Geeta
and Shamshad. There is a rare Sudha Malhotra song
(perhaps a duet), as there is an Usha Mangeshkar
duet. In the late '60s, the Asha-Kamal Barot-Mahendra
Kapoor trio was tried in low-budget productions like
NASEEHAT and CID No. 909. It stopped right there,
mercifully.
The desperation was obvious after his (tragic) fallout.
His was like the Chitalkar pursuit, the quest for just
that right voice he could blend his music with. The
man made many stops - from Krishna Kalle to Vani Jayaram
to Pushpa Pagdhare to Uttara Kelkar to Dilraj Kaur to
Peenaaz Masaani (to Anuradha Paudwal?). What is he
looking for? A second nirvana?
I have been having trouble posting on RMIM, and
hence this reply is directly to you.
cheers
vish
Neeraj Deshmukh - The Falcon
Ikram Ahmed Khan <iak...@raleigh.ibm.com> writes:
> vven...@pcocd2.intel.com wrote:
> > Let me refer to the music of "Caravan".
> > Here are the songs of
> > "Caravan":
> {with all male singers arbitrarily omitted :) }
Even more, songs by male singers also omitted... :-) There is
a fun-n-frolic KK solo that Vandana forgot to mention. Here it is with
the CAPS for singer, lower-case for actor notation :-)
hum to hai raahi dil ke -- KISHORE for Jeetendra
> > piya tu ab toh aaja -- ASHA for Helen
> > goriya kahaan tera des re -- ASHA for Aruna Irani
> > dilbar dil se pyaare -- LATA for Aruna Irani
> > chadti jawaani meri chaal mastaani -- LATA for Aruna Irani
> > kitna pyaara waada hai -- LATA for Asha Parekh
> > ab jo mile hain toh baahon mein -- ASHA for BOTH Aruna
> > Irani and Asha Parekh
> > daiya yeh main kahaan aa phasi -- ASHA for Asha Parekh
> And I also love the 'ooiii' that Lata does in 'ChaD.htii javaani', tho'
> it's not the same as GeetaD going 'ooiii' in 'dekh ke akeli mohe
> barka sataa'e ' imo... :) {Another request - make a list of songs
> which have the word 'ooiii' in it... I can think of
> "ooiii maaN, ooiii maaN, yeh kya ho gaya"
> "ooiii amma, ooiii amma, mushkil yeh kya ho gaii"
> "ooiii ooiii" (or was it "cooiii cooiii" from a song in 'Star'??)
It is indeed 'ooie ooie'... Incidentally, Biddu had planned a
sequel to 'Star' called 'Superstar' where the Kumar Gaurav - Padmini
Kolhapure angle was to be further developed. The movie never got made
after the box office debacle of the prequel, but rumor has it that
part of the soundtrack was ready already. Is that true? If so,
whatever happened to those songs?
Ciao,
ND
\____Neeraj Deshmukh__________...@isip.msstate.edu____/
Office: ISIP, MSU, 434 Simrall, Hardy Road, MS State MS 39762
Ph: (601) 325-8335 Fax: (601) 325-3149
Home: 100 Logan Drive #D, Starkville MS 39759 Ph: (601) 323-2819
\_http://www.isip.msstate.edu/____Disk Space - The Final Frontier..._/
Hindimidi
>>Subject: Re: Kishore Kumar: For what its worth.
>>From: pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey)
>>Date: 6 Jun 1997 13:23:16 GMT
>>Message-ID: <5n9304$scr$1...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>
>>
>>
>In article <EBC3L...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
>ni...@cs.washington.edu (Nitin Sharma) writes:
|>> Pradeep Dubey (pra...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
|>>
|>> : With same qualifiers as Chetan's above, I would like to add the
following.
|>> : With respect to Lata, Asha looses seriously in the 'pronounication'
>>department.
|>>: I am yet to find a Lata song where she has mispronounced a word.
However,
|>> : here are at least three from Asha:
|>>
|>>
|>> Well, if what you say is really true, the MD is more to be blamed!
|>> He shouldnt have let this pass and instead insisted on a retake.
|>> (unless he tried, and asha just couldnt get it right, which I think
|>> would be unlikely)
>Agree to some extent. But I really doubt that our MDs: RDB, SDB, Salil,
etc.
>knew the exact pronounciations themselves. It's the responsibility
>of Lyricist+MD together to make sure the surs and swars have been
rendered
>properly by the singer. There are numerous such goof-ups in hindi film
songs.
>I can only explain these with a faulty protocol. This refers to the
protocol
>whereby the lyricist doesn't get to 'approve' the final version.
>But simply the MD does. Am I wrong in assuming that the lyricist is not
>necessarily present in the multiple takes/retakes with MD?
>
>Pradeep
Pradeep,
is right here (and there too :-). I have a video clip for the SADSACK
gathering.
(A reference by Sahir about SD Hindi)
BTW I love "good" music. It is not important for me as who was the medium.
KK, Rafi, Lata, Asha, ......
Surendra
Hindimidi
>Subject: Re: The Asha / Lata Controversy
>From: Ikram Ahmed Khan <iak...@raleigh.ibm.com>
>Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 10:52:46 -0500
>Message-ID: <339C26CE...@raleigh.ibm.com>
>tho' I love 'jaane kahaaN ga'e ', I still think that for overall
>genius, this movie deserved the FF. One of these days, we should
>make a long list ('short' lists are not allowed :) ) of the
>deserving films of RDB, preferably by somebody whose name isn't RaviK.
>:)
>> Here are the songs of
>> "Caravan":
> daiya yeh main kahaan aa phasi -- ASHA for Asha Parekh
When I heard this song for the first time, I did not like it due to its
wierd melody, until I saw the movie. Apparently AshaP (no talent, no
singer) is thrown on to a stage to sing. So she is supposed to sing
"Besura".
RD and Asha did a pretty good job for this song. Obviously "Asha" did not
go "Besuri" (Before people link this post to Lata, AB controversy),
RD composed the song in multi-scales (if I may), where, the melody uses a
lot of accidentals.
BTW, There are many songs where the song goes a scale sharp. (But nothing
like "Daiya re"
e.g.
Mai.n chali mai.n chali (Padosan). RD
Gulabi Chehra sabhi ne dekh(..). RD
Humma/Hamma (Bombay). SDB
(wasn't there one in Manoranjan ?, and 'Gulabi Chehra sabhi ne dekh"(..).
RD)
Now the question: which is the first song, and which MD used this western
concept first.
Surendra
[Bhool Chook Leni Deni]
http://members.aol.com/hindimidi
Vandana Venkatesan
Ikram Ahmed Khan <iak...@raleigh.ibm.com> says and I quote after censoring:
=>Let's look at Asha changing her voice for the singers.....
=>
=>I submit-
=> 1. 'Yahee hai woh saaNjh aur saveraa'
=> where she was playback-'ing' for MeenaK. Marvelous way of inducing that
=> slight nasal twang that MeenaK had in her own voice....
=>
=> 2. 'Yeh dukh aur sukh ke raaste, bane haiN sab ke vaaste'
=> which was for Sadhana. Again, I find her changing her voice, this time
=> to suit Sadhana's voice.
=>
=> 3. 'Jaaiye aap kahaaN jaayeNge'
=> for AshaP
=>
=>Later,
=>Ikram.
Ofcourse the most interesting examples are when Asha sings for two heroines
in the same song. This has happened very often especially with
O.P. Nayyar.
- "chhun chhun ghunghroo bole, meri chaal nasheeli dole" from "Phagun",
OPN. Asha sings for both Madhubala and Nishi, and I do notice a
conscious effort to adapt to the person on screen.
- "ab jo mile hain toh baahon ko baahon mein" from "Caravan", RDB. Asha
sings for Aruna Irani and Asha Parekh. Like Ikram said, Asha Bhonsle
changes her voice, especially because Aruna Irani is happy to have
finally won over Jeetendra and Asha Parekh is sad because the director
decided to give the storyline a Hindi filmi twist and there is a
misunderstanding between the hero and heroine.
Sometimes I wonder, maybe we should make our films longer so that the
characters can talk over all the issues and avoid misunderstandings and
the ensuing melodrama.
- "Peeche haT haT haT babu chhed na" from "Basant" starring Shammi Kapoor &
Nutan, again OPN. Asha sings for a nameless gypsy and Nutan. I do not
notice any change here, that may be because she had no knowledge of how
the picturization would be.
The same movie has a duet by Asha and Rafi, quite an enjoyable one -
"chori chori ek ishara ho gaya hai, dil hamara thha tumhara ho gaya hai".
Nutan and Johny Walker are walking on the streets singing this song
looking for Shammi Kapoor. Halfway through, they find Shammi Kapoor and
he takes over Rafi's voice. It was hilariously incongruous.
It looks like OPN randomly recorded a few Asha/Rafi duets and solos and
the producer used them in the movie whereever he pleased.
I am sure there are more.
Vandana.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of Intel.
--
Pradeep Dubey
In article <5nh8c3$j...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu(Balaji A.S. Murthy) writes:
|> In article <5n7hmn$f...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu says...
|> >
|> >BTW, this(whether Suman sang for O.P.) is a general query and I am very
|> >interested to know the answer to this one.
|>
|> Hi,
|>
|> Following is from Vish(vi...@visigenic.com)....
As usual, a typical Vish response, loaded with interesting stuff.
I was looking for some reason to post this, and this post gave
me one. Last weekend was my lucky weekend as I spotted SEEMA
tape in a store in NYC.
(Of course, I meant the colorful new SEEMA)
It was the last copy and that too a damaged
one, but how could a G-bhakt refuse the 'prasadam' :-) So I still
bought, came home, fixed the tape, after lots of very hard work :-)
And it all paid off when I heard the following Suman K song:
ek thi nindiya do the naina
Truly amazing song IMO. Of course, Suman probably only got it
because of some Lata-SJ problem, but she did a decent job
to the wonderful lyrics and music of SJ.
Pradeep
P.S. If you have heard it, please comment. Or just ask
me please to post the lyrics :-)
P.P.S. So if you ever hear the following trivia posted on RMIM
you should know the answer:
************
Name a movie, which had exactly two KK-Asha duets and exactly
two Gulzar songs, but these were 4 different songs.
************
hsuv...@adobe.com
In article <5nh844$p...@clarknet.clark.net>,
I missed all intersting articles. But could get an idea as to how much
the Asha club said.
a) It is rubbish to say that Asha was up against the tide, always biased
etc. It is just equivalent to saying that Arunlal never get chances
becuase of Gavaskar. Lata had talent, Asha did'nt have that much talent.
It is that simple. For some more decades, any female singer will be
compared to Lata and not Asha. Asha is another great singer. Lata, the
greatest. Afterall you can not impose a legend.
b) What many people highlight of Asha is not singing but a skill just like
mimicritians. If she laughed well in 'zindagi ek safar', it is no singing,
it is like any other actress laughing. If she sung just like a kid,
it is alright but not a big deal.
c) Never mind what Dilip Saahab said just like what Naushaad saahab said
regarding the pronounciation. Lata was impecaable in pronounciation.
d) One can imagine hindi film songs era without Asha but not Lata. Some
Gita or Some suraiyaa would be there in place of Asha.
e) Who called it a baby shrill voice ? Infact Asha did it, Boss!!
-Harish
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Surajit A. Bose
Couldn't resist adding my do paise:
* Of course there's a pro-Lata bias among MDs and producers--and fans.
There's no other way to explain the fact that she has stayed a top
singer when for the last twenty years she's been coasting on empty. If
assignments were based on any rational evaluation of singing ability,
Lata's assignments would have petered out a long time ago. The late 70s
movie Laila Majnu, for example, has a wonderful, lively Madan Mohan
composition, "is reshmii paazeb kii jhankaar ke sad pe," utterly
destroyed by Lata's tired (no other word for it) voice. Yet she kept on
getting assignments.....I believe she even one a Filmfare award for this
movie (could be wrong).
* Asha is better at high pitches than Lata. She is also a MUCH better
classical singer than Lata is. Her voice has "vazan" and she can hit
notes in "taan" sequences like lightning. I can't imagine Lata rendering
natyasangeet the way Asha does.
* Lata's voice had purity and perfect pitch. Asha's still does.
* "jhuuTe nainaa bole": Asha doesn't mess up the taal; the composition
does. Hridaynath crams five beats into four at the end of each antara.
(That's not a very clear explanation, but it approximates to what I
mean, so I'll let it slide for now.) BTW, this song is in Bilaskhani
Todi, and "ja ja re" is in Gujari Todi--not Bhupal Todi.
* Varsha Bhosle is right--Asha has been a top choice for Marathi MDs
without bias. She has sung all kinds of songs, not just vampish ones,
for them, and she has rendered them beautifully. Even within her family,
Hridaynath has composed far more memorable and varied songs for Asha
than for Lata. The Jnaneshwar abhang "pandurang kaa.nti" should be
required listening for anybody who says Asha cannot render austere,
sublime songs.
* Lata is a great music director, but her output has been severely
limited. She should have wised up and moved to composing long ago. When
she doesn't sing well any more, she might as well exploit her other
undeniable talent. In fact, it's a shame that she's composed so few
songs.
Oh yes, I do derive immense pleasure from hearing Lata's songs upto
around, say, 1973. There is no doubt that she was one of the world's
most gifted singers. The difference between her and Asha is that Asha
still is.
Anil says "Asha will never be like Lata," or something to that effect.
Thank God for that, and vive le difference!
-s
Rajiv Shridhar
Pradeep Dubey (pra...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
: In article <5nh8c3$j...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu(Balaji A.S. Murthy) writes:
: |> In article <5n7hmn$f...@drn.zippo.com>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu says...
: |> >
: |> >BTW, this(whether Suman sang for O.P.) is a general query and I am very
: |> >interested to know the answer to this one.
: |>
: |> Hi,
: |>
: |> Following is from Vish(vi...@visigenic.com)....
:
: As usual, a typical Vish response, loaded with interesting stuff.
: And it all paid off when I heard the following Suman K song:
:
: ek thi nindiya do the naina
: Pradeep
: P.S. If you have heard it, please comment. Or just ask
: me please to post the lyrics :-)
OK. Please to post the lyrics. :-)
Rajiv
aur kuchh nahii.n to ISB kaa bhalaa kiijiye.... :-)
--
Rajiv Shridhar, Electrical & Computer Engg
230B Egan Research, Northeastern University, Boston, MA
ra...@coe.neu.edu, ra...@cdsp.neu.edu
Arunabha
HI all,
WARNING : Ultra long.
>> Anurabha, (ACTUALLY spelt ARUNABHA :-) )
>>
>> Ah, I finally get it :
No, you don't and I shall painstakingly attempt to explain. Was busy
recently with exams, but now must get back to the work in right earnest. I
do agree that ,
like any KK/ Rafi/ Lata/ ... fanatic, i too got carried away in parts, but
why should this be an exclusive privilege only you fan(atics) out there
share.
I do no think I got carried away any more than the rest. After readng
these
mails dripping with sarcasm, I remembered Ravi Krishna's reply to one of
the mails : "fans are now getting desperate". Only the personal abuse has
mercifully been omitted.
>>
>> 1. Any song Lata (or anybody else) has ever sung, Asha could have sung at
>>least as well. As a result, RD and any other MD who ever gave any song to Lata
>> were wasting their and the listeners' time.
No way did I say the second line. The first line is IMHO. What I will say,
rather, is that MD's who wilfully denied asha good songs due towhatever opinion
they had, wasted a useful resource, that's all. It's an opportunity they were
notwilling to explore. And there are SPECIFIC songs that they wasted on her
tired voice (refer Surajit's mail and many of mine)
>> 2. If Lata sings a song well, credit goes to the MD/lyrics/picturization etc.
>> If an Asha song is bad, blame the tune or the MD or the heroine or the
>> producer.
Pshaw ! If I implied this, delete it. Firstly, what one considers perfect is
highly personal. Second,A good song cannot have the credit go to only one
person- in
terms of the song itself, the MD and the singer share a lot of credit. If the
picturization / lyrics are good, (e.g. ghazals, esp. Gulzar :-) )
they no doubt enhance the overall effect of the
song. These two are undeniable. If Asha sang a good song, it was also in part
due to the genius of the composer- I think I specifically mentioned this in re:
Raat akeli hai with reference to SDB. Re: the tune, it is inevitable that a song
whose tune one does not gel with will not please IRRESPECTIVE of who sang it. If
I were a blind fan, I might have liked Jhoothe naina just because Asha sang it.
But it is not the case. In the case of Sunio ji, credit goes to both Lata and
the tune- it is so good, that anyone who sings it mellifluously and can manage
the difficult sequences , will turn out a good product- the relative
impressiveness may vary. I mentioned that I am not knowledgeable enough to
discern whether the jamming of all the notes in Sunio ji (which I added I didn't
like) was the singer's fault. Surajit Bose has clarified this. Thanks, Surajit,
and also for the info: re : Ja ja re. Just for the record, I can distinguish
between songs that are intrinsically not pleasing to my ears and those which
have been wasted on the singer. For instance, while on Rudaali Dil hum hum
came off well on Lata's aged voice, Jhooti mooti mitwa - an excellent tune- was
ruined by Lata's aged voice not taking the strain- since I do not like
to wave my hands and indulge in generalizations, I will spoecifically mention
the line- all the antara lines like : Kari tori akhiyan yaad karoon - the strain
I think is transparent, even to the uninitiated in music. However, in acassette
in the 90's of ghazals, Sajda (with Jagjit Singh) , she is given tunes which her
voice can take and execute well. It's just that it's no longer the voice which
can do any song devoid of flaws.
>> 3. Although Lata sings (used to sing, I must say. Sigh) perfectly, her songs
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> are no good compared to the imperfect renditions of Asha.
Sigh - what wilful misconstruing of my lines :-)
What I WILL assert is that Lata's imperfect renditions (after her voice
deteriorated) are orders of magnitude worse than Asha's perfect renditions of
her GOOD songs, and also of course Lata's songs of the 60's and early 70's which
were a pleasure. Certainly you cannot be as fanatic as that to demand that her
voice is (as opposed to WAS) perfect.
>> 4. Lata may pronounce Urdu/Hindi correctly but it is not pleasant to listen
>> to. When Asha mispronounces (oh lord, sacrilage) it is to deliberatly inject
>> an accent or a rural flavour or heroine-likeness (hey, Ms.Nimbupani *talks*
>> like that !)
Well, why can't you accept the first line as my limited biased opinion. I
clearly didn't say,:I am the Urdu expert, accept my view and dispel your own
notions. On the second line, you are being truly ridiculous : I even explained
in great detail that I have heard songs where she pronounces words as sehari as
well as shahri , depending upon the context. Why have you taken on this grammar
and diction teacher 's mission of proving that she is hopeless at pronunciation.
Surely I didn't embark on any such mission. I even said that I could like Lata's
ghazals as good film songs, but not as good ghazals: what I amlooking for in the
two is different; in ghazals, even Chitra singh, whose vocal agility is no match
for the Mnageshkars, SOMETIMES emerges beautifully due to her approach and
style.
I have an interest in your reference to her as Ms. Nimbupaani; it's quite funny
!
What sort of person is called Nimbu paani . Please reply to this , even if you
disregard all of my views. I'm really curious. :-)
>> 5. The entire music industry conspired against Asha for *three decades* in
>> order to make her elder sister the most popular singer of Hindi filmdom. Of
>> course the industry is made up of imbeciles who don't know their varaN-bhaat
>> from their reshami kababs.
They didn't conspire- but it's no secret that hte film industry is not free of
its misdeeds. When a large number of people like a certain singer's singing, and
find that her/his voice was not utilised, they are going to question it. MD"s
weealso prob. scared about using Asha because they feared people would not like
her voice , besides their own opinion. It's a long business of what the
producer/ director/ actor / MD / public will click with.
Lastly, these are not my concocted views- so why are you taunting me ? Or will
you now say that all these writers of the articles on RMIM are biased
hypocrites?
Lastly, remember all the people who laughed at Galileo. or veen the Christian
Church which in ancient times branded new scientific thinkers as heretics. The
majority isn't always right, just as it isn't always wrong.
>> 6. Time started some time in the 70s. Evidence of the existence of the late
>> 60s exists but is not convincing.
This is the most opaque statement of your mail ! Please do clarify. Are you
opposed to the fact that I said her voice before the 70's sounded better ? If
so, why ? Certainly you don't feel the reverse is true, do you ? :-)
>> Best regards
>
>I missed all intersting articles. But could get an idea as to how much
>the Asha club said.
Sir, please do not draw up your conclusions by hearing only one side of the
story. I am not a lunatic to write statements without adequate justification/
IMHO 's and/or qualification. And, I do not digress from normalcy any more than
is the norm for a fanatic on this NG. (Fanatic licence ! :-) )- Thanks.
>
>a) It is rubbish to say that Asha was up against the tide, always biased
>etc. It is just equivalent to saying that Arunlal never get chances
>becuase of Gavaskar. Lata had talent, Asha did'nt have that much talent.
>It is that simple. For some more decades, any female singer will be
>compared to Lata and not Asha. Asha is another great singer. Lata, the
>greatest. Afterall you can not impose a legend.
It is rubbish to claim majority support as a justification for your view. If you
feel you ike Lata better , you are free to do so, independent of what MD's
thought about the two. It is indeed rubbish to say that MD's were against her
personally, without concrete info. but we are only stating from what we have
heard of her singing, that hers was a good voice, and the fact that she was not
given that many good songs is a pity. The fact that MD's gave her more of the
vampish songs, is technically called a bias. It's not a reflection of some
crazed fan's incoherent fancies. It's just loking back at the facts and drawing
one's logical conclusions. And I might repeat again, these are not lines I have
invented, they are from the media.
>b) What many people highlight of Asha is not singing but a skill just like
>mimicritians. If she laughed well in 'zindagi ek safar', it is no singing,
>it is like any other actress laughing. If she sung just like a kid,
>it is alright but not a big deal.
May I draw your attention to the fact that it is in the first place, a very
difficult thing to do effectively, (Try it ! I have :-) )
and secondly, that it is an integral part of
film music, not divorced from it. In many KK_Rafi debates it has clearly emerged
that the output of a song, depend to a large extent on the way feelings are
conveyed through the song. In addition to a song sung correctly, there's a lot
that goes into its overall appeal. I might further add that SDB (a Lata fan like
you) was very particular in this respect. ) So, this is not my fantasy
constructed to fight the case for Asha. :-) He in fact was responsible for
extensively grooming her to be able to do this. I know of an incident where Asha
and Geeta were reqd. to sing for a song and SDB insisted that they laugh in
between singing, something that finally only Asha was able to do. Your statement
that many fans of Asha cite this as her forte is right, but we also do mention
her overall versatility as well. ( Refer to all the debates re: her voice power,
ability to convey emotion, etc.)
>
>c) Never mind what Dilip Saahab said just like what Naushaad saahab said
>regarding the pronounciation. Lata was impecaable in pronounciation.
I agree fully with you on this point. Only pointed this out as an aside. I NEVER
claimed that Lata mispronounces, neither did any one on the ng in the course of
this thread. (just foer your info since you said you did not read the earlier
postings)
>d) One can imagine hindi film songs era without Asha but not Lata. Some
>Gita or Some suraiyaa would be there in place of Asha.
Define "one" : I do not belong to that subset, and many will concur. I can
imagine the industry without Lata- a lot would have been lost, it is true, but
with Asha's exception - the same is the case. There are many songs that were too
tough for singers other than the Mangeshkars to render, and the ones Asha did
would have been irretrievably toned down to suit Geeta / Suraiiya , and lost
their appeal. No one would have sung the songs of Ijaazat, Umraao Jaan as well
as Asha , to cite only two of the many in my opinion--
in Umraaoo Jaan -even Khaiyaam had to forget his Lata-favouritism to get those
golden nos. going.
>e) Who called it a baby shrill voice ? Infact Asha did it, Boss!!
Oh yeah ? Did she tell YOU this, by any chance ? :-) :-)
Let me tell you a Lata quote, since we are on this matter : "Asha is the most
versatile voice of our times" BTW, she didn't tell me, I read it.
Regards,
Arunabha
Arunabha
Shivakumar G V
karm...@hotmail.com wrote:
: In response to Asha's voice being branded as having nothing more than "sexy sluttiness"
: I came to remember of a wonderful Asha show in Bangalore somewhere in Feb 96, where
: Ashaji chose a line and sung that expressing hajaar emotions like love, pain, devotion (u
: would feel you were listning to a standard bhajan), sensuality etc etc. Hearing that short
: rendition, I can never brand Asha to what she has been called. Asha *is* versatile and
: and has full control of her voice.
I will make my humble comments. Asha Bhosle certainly seems
to be better when singing emotional songs since I feel she involves
herself in the song and sings it with heart. On the other hand,
Lata seems to be detatched from the song when she is singing,
except when she is singing bhajans. However great the singer's
technical (I mean to say, well learned from some school of learning)
, unless the person involves himself/herself the soul will be
missing and will be felt. This is what I feel is the clinching
factor for Asha seeming to be better while singing songs
with basic human emotions.
shivu
M.Tech1
CSE
IITB
Mumbai
K Vijay Kumar
Arunabha wrote:
>
> HI all,
>
> WARNING : Ultra long.
>
> !
> What sort of person is called Nimbu paani . Please reply to this , even if you
> disregard all of my views. I'm really curious. :-)
>
Ms. Nimbupani is the name of the (Konkani? Goan?) secretary in Mario
Miranda's
daily cartoon for The Economic Times, and other preiodicals. Bundledass
is the
name of the politician featured, and the sidekick is called Godbole.
vijay
thes...@mail.swbell.net
> I have an interest in your reference to her as Ms. Nimbupaani; it's quite funny
> !
> What sort of person is called Nimbu paani . Please reply to this , even if you
> disregard all of my views. I'm really curious. :-)
The same sort of person who would marry Mr. Popat Lal.
Sorry, couldn't resist :-)
Manzoor
FatK9
About "Jhoothe Naina Bole"...
I do NOT think Asha's out of taal...the way the words go and the taan is
composed, the mukhda HAS to come back abruptly, else it simply will not
fit...maybe you can take that up with Pt. Mangeshkar, eh?
I mean, "Nit Chamkaave Chaand Kaali Ratiyaaaaaaaaaaaan, Jhoothe..."
and "Ab Bheeni Bheeni Banaaaaao Na Batiyaaaaaaaaaaaan, Jhoothe Naina Bole"
About "sur", well yes she is not 100 % in "sur" but honestly, people
should not take this "singing in sur" thing for granted...to do it with an
extremely small "delta-epsilon" (I had used this analogy long ago) it
really something - even among CLASSICAL singers, this sort of precision is
not COMMONPLACE...Anyway the point is that today's Lata gets NO points on
today's Asha in the SUR department.
Back in the day, though I am an Asha fan, I do think Lata had a very
slight edge in that department. On this count, she (Lata) is TRULY amazing
- she just didn't miss (back THEN of course), and Asha missed very few
times (also back THEN of course).
On the emotions point...let's just say I am an Asha fan(atic).
Sanjeev
FatK9
I read something in a Marathi magazine about the song "Pawan Deewani na
Maane Udaave Mora Ghunghataa".
Apparently, Lata and SDB had some disagreement and were not working for a
while, so this song was to be given to Asha B. But when she came to the
studio, she heard the song being recorded by none other than her
illustrious "Didi" - one more time she got screwed over...
I like Lata's rendition of this one, but I think Asha could have done it
at least as well (her plus/minus epsilon might have been a shade larger
than Lata's but it's still good enough from a sur standpoint)
Sanjeev
Ramesh Hariharan
My two cents on this interesting Asha-Lata thread:
1. One good starting point for comparison would be duets sung by the
sisters. Asha IMO takes the cake in "Man kyoon behaka" Are there others ?
[I don't want to count multi-starrers like "Janoo meri jaan" ... "Humko
tumse ho gaya hai pyaar" ..only one-on-one duets]...Or did their rivalry
keep them from singing duets with each other ?
2. Relative to Asha, I find Lata's very early songs (40's and early 50's)
too sweet for my ears .. In fact I like Lata's voice a lot in the late
sixties to mid-seventies in movies like Aandhi, Woh koan thi (is this
mid-60's ?), Abhiman and Aaradhana to name a few... that's surely well
before the 80's when Lata's voice started going down...The base in Asha's
voice, along with greater flexibility makes her certainly more appealing to
my taste
3. Another point to note is that Lata got to sing the best songs during the
early years .. All the wonderful songs composed by Madan Mohan, Salil and
SDB kept going to Lata ... Despite the raw deal, Asha has carved her niche
through all these years .. That directors continued choosing Lata in the
mid-80's despite Asha retaining her voice control, points to the old rule
in the music industry .."nothing succeeds like success" ..
5. Subjectivity aside, Asha is easily #1 when it comes to handling complex
tunes .. also she seems to get more involved in the life of masti bhare
songs .. unlike Lata who has a relatively calm temperament. Ironically it
is this same calmness that Lata fans love her for... they find this
sharaafat (or some other complex Urdu word that Sami used ... tsk tsk !)
missing in Asha...
Hey ! The bottom line is ... we have been very lucky to grow up in an era
when both these wonderful singers charmed us with their magic ..
Nonetheless, it's fun to fight :-)
--
Ramesh and Radhika
1 Sir Winston
Clifton Park, NY-12065
Arunabha Roy wrote in article <5n2kgi$i...@drn.zippo.com>...
> Hi Chetan,
>
> >
Arunabha
>>>> 4. Lata may pronounce Urdu/Hindi correctly but it is not pleasant to listen
>>>>to. When Asha mispronounces (oh lord, sacrilage) it is to deliberatly inject
>>>> an accent or a rural flavour or heroine-likeness (hey, Ms.Nimbupani *talks*
>>>> like that !)
BTW thanks to the person(s) who wrote informing me what Ms. Nimbupani was. :-)
>>
>>two is different; in ghazals, even Chitra singh, whose vocal agility is no match
>>for the Mnageshkars, SOMETIMES emerges beautifully due to her approach and
>>style. ^^^^^^^^^^
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Sorry, Anurabha :-), you're out of your depth here. Chitra Singh's Urdu
>pronunciation is neither perfect, nor is it any better than either Lata's or
>Asha's. Despite those few errors that people are throwing about in the
>winds, both Asha and Lata have pretty neat Urdu pronunciations... Chitra
>suffers 72% of the time (yes, I actually calculated that ;-) from an inability
Gee Whiz !!!!!!!!! :-) That IS accurate ! Any possibility of going to the
decimal places ?:-)
>to clear articulation of the letters/syllables of the word in question, and
>turns it into just that -- a word in question (like, say, ??word?? ;-)
Anyway to reply to your comment, I was surprised that her pronunciation was bad:
I certainly didn't think so. You may be right, but I'm skeptical about the 72 %.
I mean , she would have to mispronounce evry 2 out of 3 words wrong , in fact
more, to do that - somewhat tough to digest . Anyway i wasn't (I think, it was a
long time back) lauding her for her pron. in particular, I said her approach /
style is good, whatever that may mean) . Her voice is so thin, and
insubstantial, and also there are no great gimmicks in her vocal delivery, still
there must be something in it that allures so many. What it is, i don't know- in
fact I couldn't tolerate her voice at all at first- took some time to grow on
me- maybe it's a certain slow,soothing character in her voice- have you heard
"Tu nahin to zindagi me" from Arth ? Of course, that coupled with all the
musical accompaniment that Jagjit- Chitra always have in their songs, without
which they would for the most part be dull recitations of good poetry.
No flames !!!
Cheers,
Arunabha
>
Vandana Vidwans
vven...@pcocd2.intel.com wrote:
>
> Arunabha says:
>
> =>4) All of Lata's ghazals sound like her bhajans like her
> =>patriotic songs like her loris like her chhed chhad songs like
> =>her.... even Lata fans have agreed. So why should I add any
> =>more. The Lata ghazals someone mentioned are OK, but as someone
> =>else remarked they do not have the emotion conveyed by Asha .I'm
> =>sure the person who mentioned "Meraj-e- ghazal " will agree with
> =>me whole heartedly listen to roodaad e mohabbat kya kahiye ,
> =>hairaton ke silsile , or any other ghazal from that
> =>collection. terfific. And no, the mood is not slutty, sexy, or
> =>even sensual, it is different. And BTW ghazals arew supposed to
> =>be love songs , not pious bhajans- so why do you grudge talent
> =>by giving it names like sexy slutty. BTW, I enjoy her songs
> =>which are supp. to give this emotion too she makes them a
> =>different experience. Of course, this is not to say EVERY song
> =>she belts out is good. And Lata for soz - puhleeze - I AM
> =>conceding that her voice has emotion, only it's that same old
> =>one each and every time. Aao na gale lagao na , BTW has Tanuja ,
> =>and not Helen, IMHO.
>
> Common now. :) Lata was bad at conveying emotions? It is simply
> not true. She has had her bad days just like Asha has had her
> bad days. "Aao na gale lag jao na" is an LP compostion and it
> is mostly LP's fault if the song doesn't convey the right
> emotion.
>
again said that Lata is the best singer that he has known. Yet ghazals
like "Kevha tari pahaate" and "Tarun aahe ratra ajuni"( MD : Hridaynath)
are sung by Asha. Songs which have a classical base and have great
variation in tune are always given to Asha by Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
And Asha invariably renders the songs soulfully.
In Lekin, every song is sung by Lata, except for "Zoote naina bole"
which is sung by Asha. One of the songs in Lekin, "Main ek sadi se
baithi hun", has really good lyrics by Gulzar and equally good music by
Hyridaynath. I am yet to see the movie, but I suppose it is a ghost
story. In spite of very good lyrics and music, the song does not convey
the necessary eeriness.
Lata is the favourite when it comes to singing bhajans composed by
Hridaynath Mangeshkar. But once again, bhajans like "Panduranga Kanti"
are sung by Asha.
You only need to hear Hridyanath sing "Yara sili sili" and feel the
emotions being conveyed by his style of rendition and compare the same
to that of Lata's and see the difference!
#========================================================#
| "Everybody must get married sometime, After all " |
| O O " HAPPINESS is not everything in the life " |
| \_/ Vandana Vidwans ( van...@malkauns.csd.sgi.com ) |
#========================================================#
Vandana Venkatesan
Vandana Vidwans (van...@malkauns.csd.sgi.com) wrote:
=> vven...@pcocd2.intel.com wrote:
=> >
=> > Common now. :) Lata was bad at conveying emotions? It is simply
=> > not true. She has had her bad days just like Asha has had her
=> > bad days. "Aao na gale lag jao na" is an LP compostion and it
=> > is mostly LP's fault if the song doesn't convey the right
=> > emotion.
=>
=> Pandit Hridaynath Mangeshkar ( brother of Lata and Asha ) has time and
=> again said that Lata is the best singer that he has known. Yet ghazals
=> like "Kevha tari pahaate" and "Tarun aahe ratra ajuni"( MD : Hridaynath)
=> are sung by Asha. Songs which have a classical base and have great
=> variation in tune are always given to Asha by Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
=> And Asha invariably renders the songs soulfully.
=>
=> In Lekin, every song is sung by Lata, except for "Zoote naina bole"
=> which is sung by Asha. One of the songs in Lekin, "Main ek sadi se
=> baithi hun", has really good lyrics by Gulzar and equally good music by
=> Hyridaynath. I am yet to see the movie, but I suppose it is a ghost
=> story. In spite of very good lyrics and music, the song does not convey
=> the necessary eeriness.
=>
=> Lata is the favourite when it comes to singing bhajans composed by
=> Hridaynath Mangeshkar. But once again, bhajans like "Panduranga Kanti"
=> are sung by Asha.
=>
=> You only need to hear Hridyanath sing "Yara sili sili" and feel the
=> emotions being conveyed by his style of rendition and compare the same
=> to that of Lata's and see the difference!
Actually I just said it was unfair to say that Lata was bad at conveying
emotions because that is ridiculous. I did not say that she was better
than Asha. Asha is all heart when she sings, there's no doubt about that.
I also agree that Asha was immensely talented, and very few composers
in the Hindi arena used her to her fullest potential.
This is an old old thread which was put to rest long long back (actually
not that long back) and it is extremely naughty of you to revive it again!
Vandana.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of Intel.
###### Visit the CRY webpage @ http://www.cry.org ######
Nitin Sharma
Arunabha says:
: >
: > =>4) All of Lata's ghazals sound like her bhajans like her
: > =>patriotic songs like her loris like her chhed chhad songs like
: > =>her.... even Lata fans have agreed. So why should I add any
Ahem! This is news. When did that happen??
-nitin
Abhay Avachat
As Vandana V from Intel (there _are_ many Vandana's on RMIM) says
this is an old thread and it may be naughty (!) of me to say something
at this point :-), still let me mention something interesting.
In article <33F1F93D...@malkauns.csd.sgi.com>, Vandana says...
>Pandit Hridaynath Mangeshkar ( brother of Lata and Asha ) has time and
>again said that Lata is the best singer that he has known. Yet ghazals
>like "Kevha tari pahaate" and "Tarun aahe ratra ajuni"( MD : Hridaynath)
>are sung by Asha. Songs which have a classical base and have great
>variation in tune are always given to Asha by Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
>And Asha invariably renders the songs soulfully.
I very much agree with you that Asha's Marathi songs are just toooooo
good. Esp with Hridaynath. But I am not sure if we should deduce too
much from the MD's choice of singers. Oh my, this is also has been
discussed till death. So forget it.
But let me remind you one of the best HM-Lata sonngs, a GHazal very much.
What about "maalvun Taak deep" ? Isn't it difficult to sing etc ? Hasn't
it been sung soulfully ? My only point is, HM has great songs both with
Asha and Lata, covering all the types of songs. I won't deduce much from
the allocation. But I admit that most of the music lovers I know prefer
Asha over Lata in Marathi songs. And Asha's singing of Master Deenanath
songs is considered a major factor here. It's awesome. Just fantastic.
And no other MD (including all those Hindi MDs) has used Asha's abilities
the way HM has done. No one. Thay make an amzing combo.
Now for the twist, which I have been wanting to tell for a long time. ;-)
I have a 2 cassette pack of Asha's live concert of HM songs. There she
says, "let me try to show the different singing styles". The proceeds to
sing in the style of HM himself and Sudhir Phadake. Wonderfully done !
Then, behold, she sings in the style of Lata Didi ! And you have to
hear it to believe it. How Lata speaks (!) and sings !! It's amazing to
say the least. Abs great ! It's a must hear for a true Asha fan :-) ;-)
Now what that does to this age-old Asha-Lata debate, is beyond me ;-)
>You only need to hear Hridyanath sing "Yara sili sili" and feel the
>emotions being conveyed by his style of rendition and compare the same
>to that of Lata's and see the difference!
That's a bit unfair ! Lata is/was way past her prime in Lekin. But I
agree in general. Even in the song where HM just sings an aalaap (or a
few words) before Lata takes off, he sounds really like a master teaching
a student !!
Anyway. ;-)
- Abhay.
And just for the head-count, I am a Lata-bhakt first :-)
Arunabha
In article <5t0dmr$d...@drn.zippo.com>, ava...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>As Vandana V from Intel (there _are_ many Vandana's on RMIM) says
>this is an old thread and it may be naughty (!) of me to say something
>at this point :-), still let me mention something interesting.
Well, not that naughty since you provided useful information. Could you please
let me know the details of this cassette where she sings HM songs- name, whether
it is in Marathi/ Hindi/etc., whether it is a recent release or hard to find,
etc. ?
Thanks.
Abhay Avachat
In article <5t1srm$6...@drn.zippo.com>, "Arunabha" says...
>Well, not that naughty since you provided useful information. Could you please
>let me know the details of this cassette where she sings HM songs- name, whether
>it is in Marathi/ Hindi/etc., whether it is a recent release or hard to find,
>etc. ?
This cassette pack is named "Nakshatraanche Dene". It's all Marathi songs.
Company is 'Baba' cassette number BMCB 0015. I do not know much about the
company. Bought this around a year back, but the pakaging date is Dec 94.
Costed Rs 50/-. Don't know how difficult it is to find. But I found it by
chance in a shop called "Prabhat", Shivaji Park, Dadar, Mumbai. Haven't
seen it the famous shops like Rhythm House etc. but that doesn't say much.
It also says, "MFD & MKTD by G.D.R IMPEX Bombay 400 007".
Almost all songs are Asha-HM. Has some absolute gems.
Songs I really love from this are ...
- ye re ghana, ye re ghana
- chandane shimpit jaashi
- haat naka laau maajhyaa saadila (by Anandghana ie Lata M)
- hi waat duur jaate
- tarun aahe ratra ajuni
- keNva tari pahaate
- kaanadaa vo vitthalu
- jeevalagaa, raahile dur ghar maaze
- ushakaal hota hota (prob the best chorus ever MDed by any)
A treasure. No doubt.
Hope this helps,
- Abhay.
hsuv...@adobe.com
In article <EEwqJ...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
>
> Arunabha says:
> : >
> : > =>4) All of Lata's ghazals sound like her bhajans like her
> : > =>patriotic songs like her loris like her chhed chhad songs like
> : > =>her.... even Lata fans have agreed. So why should I add any
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
Perhaps, you were too much awed by the melody of hers across all rasaas.
-Harish
Anil Hingorani
Vandana Vidwans wrote:
>
> Pandit Hridaynath Mangeshkar ( brother of Lata and Asha ) has time and
> again said that Lata is the best singer that he has known. Yet ghazals
> like "Kevha tari pahaate" and "Tarun aahe ratra ajuni"( MD : Hridaynath)
> are sung by Asha. Songs which have a classical base and have great
> variation in tune are always given to Asha by Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
> And Asha invariably renders the songs soulfully.
>
Gee! What's wrong with that Hridaynath Mangeshkar? He composes so
brilliantly and gives Asha all his prized compositions but when Asha
does a fabulous job of his songs he seems to loose his hearing and
insist that the older sister is a better singer. What a shame! A
brilliant composer with no mind of his own to know who's the better
singer. We, the 'gurus' (vidhwans?) of RMIM should teach him a thing
or two about singing and maybe give him some ear-training lessons that
he 'obviously' lacks.
Anil
U.V. Ravindra
:-))
Yes we do. But first we need to teach the Klaners that it is
Rafi who is THE GOD, and not any Madhya Pradesh ka chhokra!
But seriously, somewhere along the line, we all seem to forget
that music directors are human beings too (yes, they are, even
'les despicables' ;-) like noisy Nadeem-Shravan and bawling Bappi)
and, inasmuch as that, are entitled to have their own opinions of
a singer's caliber. How else would you explain what Pt. Chaurasia
said in the DC-Meet in response to a question about why Shiv-Hari
always give Lata a song or two in their films, despite knowing that
she sings so horribly nowadays? "Woh hamaari dost hai", he had
said, if you remember! :-) [and I wanted to say "aag lage aisi
dosti ko jo music ke naam pe junk nikalvaati hai" ;-))], and
had proceeded to trash Kumar Sanu in the same breath :-) How on
earth performing classical musicians like Pt. Shivkumar Sharma
and Pt. Chaurasia can be deaf to Lata's out of shape aawaaz of
today is beyond my comprehension...
May be Hridaynath feels that Lata is the best overall singer he
has found so far, but that, for his songs and his music, he would
rather have Asha's voice than ba.Di didi-s... :-))
Regards,
Ravindra.
Surajit Bose
Abhay Avachat wrote:
> But let me remind you one of the best HM-Lata sonngs, a GHazal very much.
> What about "maalvun Taak deep" ? Isn't it difficult to sing etc ? Hasn't
> it been sung soulfully ?
I keep telling myself that I won't contribute to this futile thread any
more, but when someone hands out such a tempting bait.....as Oscar Wilde
said, I can resist anything except temptation.....
"maalavuuna Taaka diipa" is NOT difficult to sing. It is a very lovely
melody indeed, in what's now called Raaga Bhoopeshvari, but it's
perfectly straightforward--amazingly straightforward considering that
it's an HM composition. HM's compositions are notoriously difficult to
sing.
Comparing HM's "maazhe gaaNe akshay gaaNe," the 4-tape Lata set, and
"nakshatraya.Nche deNe," the 2-tape Asha set, I have to agree with those
who say that his best songs went to Asha. Despite some standouts ("naahi
kashii mhaNuu.N tulaa," "saagaraa praaNa taLamaLalaa,"
"aana.ndavanabhuuvanii," "mendichya paanaavara") the 4-tape set is a
disappointment. IMHO it doesn't generate enough decent songs to fill 2
cassettes with reasonably good music--there's some amazingly poor stuff
there, whereas every one of the songs on "nakshatraya.Nche deNe" is
first-rate.
What is more, while Lata has some virtuoso numbers on her set, the most
difficult songs are on the Asha set. "malmalii taaruNya maazhe," for
example, is a much more difficult composition. It's a fair comparison to
"maalavuuna Taaka diipa" because the lyricist is the same--Suresh
Bhat--and the sense is similar. And as sexy as "maalavuuna Taaka diipa"
is in terms of lyrics, there's just no erotic charge to the song. This
is partly owing to the relative quietude of the composition, but more
importantly owing to the absence of affect in Lata's voice; Lata simply
cannot communicate emotions as effectively as Asha.
And the most difficult of HM's compositions, by his own admission, is
"taruNa aahe raatra azunii," another Suresh Bhat lyric. Here too the
composition is pretty low-key, but boy--is it sexy or what. Asha rocks!
It is also very telling that he should say--he says this far more often
than he says that Lata is the greatest singer he has known, BTW--that
this is his most difficult composition, and then assign it to Asha. HM
is one of the very few MDs who has tapped into Asha's potential fully.
She has sung every type of song for him.
-s
Anil Hingorani
U.V. Ravindra wrote:
>
> But seriously, somewhere along the line, we all seem to forget
> that music directors are human beings too (yes, they are, even
> 'les despicables' ;-) like noisy Nadeem-Shravan and bawling Bappi)
> and, inasmuch as that, are entitled to have their own opinions of
> a singer's caliber. How else would you explain what Pt. Chaurasia
> said in the DC-Meet in response to a question about why Shiv-Hari
> always give Lata a song or two in their films, despite knowing that
> she sings so horribly nowadays? "Woh hamaari dost hai", he had
two. However, for their only non-Yash Chopra effort (what is that
junk Madhuri-Rishi-SanjayD movie?), they chose the awful Anuradha P.
instead!
I feel sorry for composers of such caliber - they don't have any good
singers to choose from the current crop of film singers and they have
to get LM or AB for their prized compositions, knowing fully well that
they are both way past their prime. Why can't such composers bring in
talent from the classical world? What's stopping them? I know Vishal
used Sanjeev Abhyankar, Hridaynath used Satyasheel Deshpande,
Kishori Amonkar used ?(sorry I can't remember his name) for Dhristi
and Vanraj B. consistently uses classical singers. When we have such
wonderful singers, why do composers, especially the likes of Shiv-Hari,
use these awful singers?
Cheers,
Anil
U.V. Ravindra
Anil Hingorani wrote:
>
> > How else would you explain what Pt. Chaurasia
> > said in the DC-Meet in response to a question about why Shiv-Hari
> > always give Lata a song or two in their films, despite knowing that
> > she sings so horribly nowadays? "Woh hamaari dost hai", he had
>
> They give LM "most" of the songs in their films - not just one or
> two. However, for their only non-Yash Chopra effort (what is that
> junk Madhuri-Rishi-SanjayD movie?), they chose the awful Anuradha P.
> instead!
Yes, what is it? I'm not sure I've seen it. But this might
well be a RAMLI question :-)
> I feel sorry for composers of such caliber - they don't have any good
> singers to choose from the current crop of film singers and they have
> to get LM or AB for their prized compositions, knowing fully well that
> they are both way past their prime. Why can't such composers bring in
> talent from the classical world? What's stopping them? I know Vishal
> used Sanjeev Abhyankar, Hridaynath used Satyasheel Deshpande,
> Kishori Amonkar used ?(sorry I can't remember his name) for Dhristi
> and Vanraj B. consistently uses classical singers. When we have such
> wonderful singers, why do composers, especially the likes of
> Shiv-Hari, use these awful singers?
Shankar Mahadevan, I think, is one of those guys who are Vanraj Bhatia
mainstays. However, note how your list continues to refer to only
male singers, and no female singers. For some reason, female classical
singers have not made as smooth a transition into filmdom as their
male counterparts: I am not making a chauvinistic claim here, I'm
just stating my (possibly ill-informed and horribly biased) observation
here. People like Kishori Amonkar, Lakshmi Shankar, Haimanti Shukla,
etc have sung for films in the past, but to my ears they have always
sounded a bit harsh -- "harsh" is probably a bad word, 'a trifle
sharp' is the voice -- except for Parveen Sultana, whose voice in
"hamen tum se pyaar kitna" is deliciously sweet and soft (but still
falls a bit short in the "adaa-o-naaz" field). However, she prefers to
continue to give classical concerts with her annoying husband, Dilshad
Khan. Do we have any good female singers waiting in the wings?
I wonder.
---
:-R
> Cheers,
> Anil
Ashok
In article <33F8D...@nd.edu>, bos...@nd.edu says...
>
>What is more, while Lata has some virtuoso numbers on her set, the most
>difficult songs are on the Asha set. "malmalii taaruNya maazhe," for
>example, is a much more difficult composition. It's a fair comparison to
>"maalavuuna Taaka diipa" because the lyricist is the same--Suresh
>Bhat--and the sense is similar. And as sexy as "maalavuuna Taaka diipa"
>is in terms of lyrics, there's just no erotic charge to the song. This
>is partly owing to the relative quietude of the composition, but more
>importantly owing to the absence of affect in Lata's voice; Lata simply
>cannot communicate emotions as effectively as Asha.
>
>And the most difficult of HM's compositions, by his own admission, is
>"taruNa aahe raatra azunii," another Suresh Bhat lyric. Here too the
>composition is pretty low-key, but boy--is it sexy or what. Asha rocks!
>It is also very telling that he should say--he says this far more often
>than he says that Lata is the greatest singer he has known, BTW--that
>this is his most difficult composition, and then assign it to Asha. HM
>is one of the very few MDs who has tapped into Asha's potential fully.
>She has sung every type of song for him.
>
>-s
"malmali taaruNya" a Hridayanath composition? I thought it was a
C. Ramchandra composition for 'Gharkul', arguably his best Asha song.
Ashok
Abhay Avachat
In article <33FA02...@infogain.com>, "U.V. says...
>> They give LM "most" of the songs in their films - not just one or
>> two. However, for their only non-Yash Chopra effort (what is that
>> junk Madhuri-Rishi-SanjayD movie?), they chose the awful Anuradha P.
>> instead!
>
>Yes, what is it? I'm not sure I've seen it. But this might
>well be a RAMLI question :-)
This film is Saahibaa. Not terrible compared to rest of the crap Bollywood
produces. The worst part was Sanjay Dutt and his recitation of shers :-(((.
The songs are OKish by today's standards. "O meri saahibaa" the title song,
then some mela song with words to the effect "mele me log aate hai, jaate
hai, meri unglee pakadke mere saath chalana" etc. This was a tune which I
thought I have heard before, but couldn't identify the original tune when
I saw the movie. Another song had these #@%^&* words -- "maiN botal nahiN
sharaab ki, jise khol ke tu pee jaayega" !! Whew ! Overall, this movie
doesn't do much good to the reputation of Shiv-Hari.
- Abhay.
See ? This was a RMIM question :-)
Unknown
>> They give LM "most" of the songs in their films - not just one or
>> two. However, for their only non-Yash Chopra effort (what is that
>> junk Madhuri-Rishi-SanjayD movie?), they chose the awful Anuradha P.
>> instead!
>
>Yes, what is it? I'm not sure I've seen it. But this might
>well be a RAMLI question :-)
The name of the movie is Sahibaan and it has the following songs:
kaise jiyooNgi maiN agar mai naa bani... teri sahibaan....
is mele mein log aate haiN kho jaate haiN
tu kyaa pyaar karegaa pyaar maiNe kiyaa......
The movie as well as the soundtrack are quite avoidable.
Surajit Bose
U.V. Ravindra wrote:
>
> Anil Hingorani wrote:
The singer Kishori used in DRISHTI is Raghunandan Panshikar, her own
student, and one of the greatest voices I've ever heard. Neither
Satyasheel Deshpande (Kumar Gandharva's student) nor Sanjeev Abhyankar
(Jasraj's) are particularly good as classical singers, IMHO; and their
film singing isn't that hot either. Satyasheel does not even consider
himself a performer, he just works as an archivist at NCPA.
Incidentally, the credit for first using him in film songs goes not to
Hridaynath but to Ajit Burman, for "mana aana.nda aana.nda chhaayo" in
VIJETA.
Kishori does not sound as good as she should in film songs because she
insists on singing in kaali ek (Lata's pitch) instead of the natural
pitch (kaali chaar) she uses when she sings classical. But give her
credit--she is about as old as Lata and yet her songs in DRISHTI sound
considerably better than Lata's at the same age. Haimanti Shukla is a
Ravindra Sangeet singer, not a classical one. Lakshmi Shankar sounds
wonderful in "kaahe kaa.Nhaa karata barajorii." Parveen Sultana sounds
squeaky (my favorite term of opprobrium, it seems!) in "piital kii merii
gaagarii," and Minoo Purushottam knocks her out cold.
Classical and film singing call for a different set of talents; it's
unrealisitic to expect that the crossover will be easy even for the
greatest classical singer. When the classical singers are mediocre to
begin with (Parveen S. or Sanjeev A., for example), then the crossover
may be advisable from one perspective, disastrous from another,
depending on which way you wanna look at it!
-s
Nitin Sharma
3FA023...@infogain.com> <5tdie0$e...@drn.zippo.com>
Distribution:
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
nawat...@hotmail.com (Nita) wrote:
: The name of the movie is Sahibaan and it has the following songs:
: kaise jiyooNgi maiN agar mai naa bani... teri sahibaan....
This song sounds very much like "husn pahoRon ka.." (from Ram Teri.. ?)
Or may be, the pahaRi folk tune is confusing me.
I think there was one more song which sounds similar, but I can't
remember..
-nitin
Asam
Hi all,
The only logical explanation for Lata being (much) more popular,
getting better evaluation from music critics, finding greater favor by
almost all the big MDs, getting better appreciation from co-singers,
getting better respect from the greatest classical stalwarts, etc. etc.
etc than Asha, would be to say that Lata had some sort of a magic wand
which she weaved over everyone save a few never-say-die Asha fans and
got them entrenched in some sort of a trance and had them sway to her
commands (i.e. her magic melody). It is sort of surprising that they are
still so many who assert Asha's supremacy over Lata. It is one thing to
acknowledge Lata to be better and say "but I still prefer Asha" but
quite another to say that Asha is far superior no matter what.
For those people who are ignorant about Lata's prowess in
classical songs, it would be a good starter's exercise to listen to some
of her classical treats like "saaware saaware", "manmohana", "bhaiya na
daro", pawan diwane", etc. etc. There are just too many more to mention
now. As regarding her lively numbers ( which includes dance numbers,
cabarets etc which is the only one emotion in which Asha is better), do
listen to "dilbar dil se pyaare", " oh maine pyar kiya", "unse mili
nazar to mere hosh ud gaye", "do goont pilaade sharabi" etc. As for her
eerie numbers "kahin deep jale kahin dil", "naina barse", "gumnaam hai
koi" will do.
It is easy to cry in a sad song than to express pathos with just
tonal variation. Lata's talent lies in her unique way to express
emotions with just her subtle voice modulations. It is much more
difficult because of the danger of not expressing the emotion at all.
Asha's way is safe. Just do everything overtly and you have it.
Classical songs (western as well as Indian) emphasize in expressing
emotions from within. You don't get to hear Bhimsen Joshi or MSS crying
or laughing in their songs or being lively just because the song has
lyrics that way. Ask Asha to sing a simple song without any variation
and she will invariably add her own and spoil it before you even know
it. Listen to her voice at high pitch and you will notice almost always
she never sings it with her full voice. She just adds variations to all
her songs to make all of them sound like some rhythmic number
(O.P.Nayyar style). But with all this she is still one of the best
singers which I have never doubted.
I have to confess my ignorance about marathi numbers, but HM
(their brother) is not some sort of a barometer to test the supremacy of
these singers. Ask him his favourite number in Lekin and pat comes the
reply "Sunio ji". Wonder why he asked Lata to sing it. Also wonder why
LM was given the national award for that movie if AB has sung "jhooti
bol bole" much better than all the Lata numbers in that song. It was a
whiff of fresh air to hear Lata sing well for a change in that movie,
(after her disasters in her 90s songs) and we have people criticizing
that.
Regarding Shiv-Hari's preference of Lata it has got to do more
with Yash Chopra's choice than theirs. Moreover they have concentrated
more on filmy melody having very little to do with classical music. But
probably nobody in RMIM would doubt the great RaviShankar's mastery over
Hindustani classical music. When he was the MD for a few movies which
were classical based, he always chose Lata and the only time they didn't
work together (for the movie "Meera") he chose Vani Jairam. Ask him why
he ignored AB and he simply says that he was impressed by Vani Jairam's
talent. Mind you he being a purist, didn't like any intrusion by
producers/directors etc. into his domain and always had his way. The
media followed it up quickly to crown Vani Jairam with the No. 2 slot
over AB. The No.1 slot without mention was always Lata's. Again maybe it
was all because of some sort of jaadu which Lata possessed......
Asam
>
>
>
lindires
In rec.music.indian.misc Asam <chri...@monmouth.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
{ all the stuff deleted}
> Asha's way is safe. Just do everything overtly and you have it.
> Classical songs (western as well as Indian) emphasize in expressing
> emotions from within. You don't get to hear Bhimsen Joshi or MSS crying
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> or laughing in their songs or being lively just because the song has
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> lyrics that way. Ask Asha to sing a simple song without any variation
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't quite understand your statement '...because the song
has lyrics that way.' Yes, in classical music a variety of
rAgas (or tunes) and prayogas (or phrases) are available to
express subtle emotions, and the artist must indeed internalize
those subtle emotions from within and express them suitably.
Mere lyrics don't express the required emotion, and mere tune
doesn't convey the emotion. They go hand in hand, at least in
the Indian Classical music (particularly Carnatic Classical
Music). Hence, there is no need to cry or laugh for Bhimsen
Joshi and MSS or others. In film music, explicit depiction is
the need, and hence the need to jerk tears even.
Vishnupriya
{ rest of the stuff deleted}
> Asam
Snehal B. Oza
In <3402E2...@lucent.com> Chetan Vinchhi <cvin...@lucent.com> writes:
>Thanks for the piece of information on 'aa.Ndhiyaa.N'
>> Actually, Ali Akbar Khan gave the best song in 'Aandhiyaan' to Lata.
>> A beautiful song 'hai kahin par shaadmaani..', it is hard to get. I
>> had heard this a while ago and did not know which film it was from.
>It prompted me to find out more. Following are the only songs AAK
>has composed for the sisters.
>Lata (2 solos) :
>- hai kahi.n par shaadmaani (aa.Ndhiyaa.N, 1951)
This was in three parts. I don't know why Vishwas Nerulkar has not mentioned it.
My rating for all three is great.
>- koi duur bajaaye baa.nsuri chheDe dil ke taar (hamsafar, 1953)
A pleasant song, but lacks all the musical creativeness Ali Akbar showed in
Hain Kahin Par Shaadmaani, which IMO, is the best creation of his.
>Asha (2 solos, 2 duets) :
>- dard ba.NT rahaa hai kise dard chaahiye (with chorus, aa.Ndhiyaa.N)
>- dil kaa Kazaanaa khol diyaa
> khushiyaa.N luuTaane aayii hu.n (aa.Ndhiyaa.N)
>- wo chaa.Nd nahi.n (with Hemant, aa.Ndhiyaa.N)
>- kisii ne nazar se nazar jab milaa dii
> merii zi.ndagii jhuum kar muskura dii (with Talat, hamsafar)
I have heard both the duets. Hamsafar duet is more catchy than 'Koi Door Bajaye'
I guess, you know about other duet for it's now available on more than one HMV
albums.
Snehal
>Has anybody heard any of these? Of course, many of us know the
>Asha-Hemant duet above. And Anil has evaluated the Lata solo from
>'aa.Ndhiyaa.N' (does anybody have a copy?)
>As far as Vilayat Khan is concerned, it seems the only song he has
>composed is the 'kaadambarii' Asha solo. It is a beautiful song and
>Asha has sung it very well.
>C