Least Used Raagas in Film Music
Afzal A. Khan
Our musical heritage is replete with songs based on classical
Raagas. Bhairavi and Yaman are easily the two Raagas that have
been used most often. Other Raagas used to a lesser extent
include Malkauns, PahaaRi, Shivranjani, Baageshri, Des etc.
But which is the Raaga that has been used least in film music ?
I would say that the "prize" should go to Raaga Deepak. Apart
from a couple of films dealing with the life and times of MiaN
Tansen, I doubt whether this Raaga has been used in any other
film. (Sometimes, while listening to an "Anurodh" song, some
of the notes remind me of Deepak, but I may be mistaken.)
Other Raagas which have not been favoured so much by our MDs
include Durga, Kalawati, Tilang, Jaunpuri and BilasKHani Todi.
RMIMers' views requested.
Afzal
Ek Tanhaa
I agree. The only song bsed in Deepak I know is " Diya jalao" from Tansen
However my favaorites songs in the other less used raags are:
Durga: Geet Gaya patharoon ne Lata/Asha
There is a great Ghazal by Chitra "tum ko hum dil main"
Kalawati: Hi re vo din kyon na aa-ay Lata/Asha
Tilang: Chota sa balama Asha
Jaunpuri: Meri Yaad main tum na Talat
Bilaskhani Todi Uff!! Ive forgotten the Bhav completely.
Been too long in the USA. Please remind
me ofa a song in this Raag !!!! Thanks
Sumantra Dutta Roy
> I would say that the "prize" should go to Raaga Deepak. Apart
> Other Raagas which have not been favoured so much by our MDs
> include Durga, Kalawati, Tilang, Jaunpuri and BilasKHani Todi.
People like Dr. Parrikar, Naniwadekar-ji, Surajit, UV Ravindra
would obviously know better ...
(I still cherish Surajit's one on the distinction
between Kalavati and Janasammohini)
My list is in the format: [Song (Film) Singer]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd consider the following to be rarer:
I. Jayant Malhar
----------------
Meghaa barasne lagaa hai (?)
Asha Bhonsle
II. Gaud Malhar
---------------
Ritu aaye, ritu jaaye (Humdard)
Lata Mangeshkar and Manna Dey
III. Sri (Carnatic: Kriti ?)
-----------------------------
1. Aake tere baahon mein, har shaam lage sindoori (Vansh)
S. P. Balasubramanium and Lata Mangeshkar
2. Hum kashm-e-kash gham mein, guzar kyon nahin jaate
Lata Mangeshkar
IV. Marwa
----------
1. Saanjh bhayi ghar aa jaa re piyaa (?)
Lata Mangeshkar
V. Multani
----------
1. O birahee O dukhdaayee
Lata Mangeshkar
VI. Shuddha Megh
----------------
1. Barason re, barason re (Tansen)
Khurshid
VII. Nat Behag
--------------
1. Jhanjhan jhanjhan paayal baaje (Bopdev)
Lata Mangeshkar
VIII. Darbari-Kaanada
---------------------
1. Koi matwala aaya mere dware (Love in Tokyo)
Lata Mangeshkar
IX. Shuddha Todi
----------------
1. Woh bhooli daastaan (Sanjog)
Lata Mangeshkar
X. Bhopal Todi
--------------
1. Main piya teri, tu maane yaa na maane (Basant Bahar)
Lata Mangeshkar
XI. Sindhu Bhairavi
-------------------
1. Aja hun na aaye baalama, saawan beeta jaye (Saanjh aur Sawera)
Mohd. Rafi and Suman Kalyanpur
2. Ai mere dil kahin aur chal (Daag)
Talat Mahmud
XII. Mishra Sindhu Bhairavi
---------------------------
1. Jyot se jyot jagaate chalo, prem ki ganga (Sant Gyaneshwar)
Lata Mangeshkar
XIII. Bhairav (Carnatic Mayamalavagaude ?)(Ahir Bhairav:more common)
------------------------------------------
1. Mohe bhool gaye saanwariya (Baiju Bawra)
Lata Mangeshkar
2. Jago mohana pyaare (Jagte Raho)
Lata Mangeshkar
XIV. Bairagi Bhairav
-------------------
1. Kar gaya kaanha milan ka vaadaa (Geet Gaata Chal)
Aarati Mukherjee
XV. Kalingra
------------
1. Ramaiyaa bina neend nahin aawe (?)
Lata Mangeshkar
XVI. Asavari
------------
1. Meri yaad mein tumna aansoo (Madhosh)
Talat Mahmud
XVII. Jog Kauns
---------------
1. Nisadin barasat nain hamaare
Lata Mangeshkar
XVIII. Jog
----------
1. Gun-guna rahe hain bhawarein (Aradhana)
Mohd. Rafi and Asha Bhonsle (?)
2. Jogi ita nahin jaanaa (?)
Pankaj Udhas, Anuradha Paudwal
XIX. Shuddha Kalyan
-------------------
1. Jata hai tu kahan (Yes Boss)
Udit Narayan (?)
XX. Anandi / Nand Kalyan
------------------------
1. Tu jahan jahan chalega (Mera Saya)
Lata Mangeshkar
2. Teri kahani yaad aayi, phir tera fasaana yaad (Dil diya dard liya)
Lata Mangeshkar
XXI. Chaandni Kedar
-------------------
1. Background score (Goonj Uthee Shehnai)
Ustaad Bismillah Khan on the Shehnai with
Ustaad Abdul Halim Jafar Khan on the Sitar
XXII. Kamod
-----------
1. Sharaabi sharaabi yeh saawan kaa mausam (Noor Jahan)
Suman Kalyanpur
XXIII. Deshkar / Bhoop
----------------------
1. Jyoti Kalasha chhalake (Bhabhi ki Chudiyaan)
Lata Mangeskhar
XXIV. Vibhas
------------
1. Saanjh dhale, gagan tale (Utsav)
Suresh Wadkar
XXV. Kukubh Bilawal
-------------------
1. On jay jagadeesh hare (Purab aur Pashchim)
Lata Mangeshkar
XXVI. Abhogi
------------
1. Koi sawar di ko bahlaata nahin (Dil diya dard liya)
Mohd. Rafi
XXVII. Zila Kafi
----------------
A background score for Mughal-e-Azam
on the Sitar, by Ustaad Abdul Halim Jafer Khan
XXVIII. Kafi Bhairavi
---------------------
1. Meethe bol bole (Kinara)
Lata Mangeshkar
XXIX. Sindura
-------------
1. Jalte hain jiske liye (Sujata)
Talat Mahmud
2. The `Bombay' theme music
XXX. Hindol (Carnatic Kunadavinodini ?)
---------------------------------------
1. Jhoomti chali hawa (Sangeet Samrat Tansen)
Mukesh
XXXI. Sohini
------------
1. Kuhu kuhu bole koyeliya (Swarna Sundari)
Lata Mangeshkar
XXXII. Dhani
------------
1. Nainon mein badara chhaye (Mera Saya)
Lata Mangeshkar
XXXIII. Patdeep
---------------
1. Saaz ho tum aur aawaaz hoon main (Saaz aur Aawaaz)
Mohd. Rafi
XXXIV. Hamir
------------
1. Madhuban mein radhika (Kohinoor)
Mohd. Rafi
2. Bairan ho (Dekh Kabira Roya)
Manna Dey
XXXV. Jayjayvanti (Carnatic Dvijavanti ?)
-----------------------------------------
1. Mana mohana, bade jhoothe (Seems)
Lata Mangeshkar
XXXVI. Gunakali
---------------
1. Yeh hawaa yeh raat yeh chaandni (Sangdil)
Talat Mahmud
2. Yeh kaun aaj aayaa savere savere (Nartaki)
Pankaj Mullick
XXXVII. Ramkali
---------------
1. Dekho bijli doli bin baadal ki (Bin Baadal Barsaat)
Asha Bhonsle
XXXVIII. Charukeshi
-------------------
1. Gardishein tanhaee mein (?)
(?)
2. Shyaam teree bansi pukaare raadhaa naam (?)
(?)
XXXIX. Hamsadhwani
------------------
1. Karam kee gati nyaari (?)
Lata Mangeshkar
2. Jaa tose more roke kahhaiyaa (?)
Lata Mangeshkar
I'll end with a classic - this information I got from a Sangeet
Sarita gem by Ustaad Abdul Halim Jaffer Khan, who analyzed the
following:
Jaaiye aap kahaan jaayenge, yeh nazar laut (?)
Asha Bhonsle
{Pilu + Simendra Madhyam + Hemavat + Saraswati Ranjani}
Some Ragas in which I am not aware of any film songs are:
---------------------------------------------------------
Madhuvanti
Soordasi Malhar, Desh Malhar, Ramdasi Malhar
Sahana
Bhavani
Shankara
With warm regards,
Sumantra.
~
~
shekhar
> Other Raagas which have not been favoured so much by our MDs
> include Durga, Kalawati, Tilang, Jaunpuri and BilasKHani Todi.
> > RMIMers' views requested.
This list is open to correction.
Kalavati has been used quite often. Offhand:
- Kahe tarsaaye (Chitralekha)
- Meghwa gagan (Harishchandra Taramati)
- Kabhi to miloge (Sati Savitri)
- Agar dilbar ki ruswai (Khilona)
- Maika piya bulawe (Sur Sangam) (not sure of the lyric!)
Tilang:
- Sakhi ri sun boli papiha (Miss Mary) - quite representative as the
raag's sargam is sung in parts, as also in
- Ni sa ga ma pa ni (Anand Mahal)
- Sajan sang kaahe (Parvarish)
- Itna to yaad hai mujhe (Mehboob Ki Mehendi)
Jaunpuri:
- Jab dil ko satawe gham (Sargam)
- Lagan lagi hai (Naata)
- Piya te kahan (Toofan Aur Diya)
- Chandrika dekh (3rd stanza of Kuhu kuhu, from Suvarna Sundari)
- Chitnandan aage naachungi (Do Kaliyan)
The only Bilaskhani Todi I know is Lekin's Jhoote naina bole.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Shekhar
>
>
> Afzal
Irfan Anwar
>
> There is a fairly good w/site where you can find a list of
songs in about seventy different raags.You may find some
repetition or some wrong plcement,but overall it's a very good effort.
www.geocities.com/Vienna/Starsse/1364/songs.html
Enjoy,
Irfan
Harish
You have started a very interesting thread Afzalji. I wonder whether
music directors really choose an obscure raga and base a song on them.
As film music need not necessarily be purely based on a raga, IMHO I
think a music director selects a mainline raga, and introduces
innovations (which results in the raga getting changed from the
mainline to a more obscure form).
Example: Mr. Rajan Parrikar identifies "Nain so nain" as Malgunji. Now
I really wonder if Vasant Desai while composing the song really
decided on Malgunji. I would rather hedge my bets on he choosing
Bageshri with a few liberties which the realm of film music allows
him.
Harish Kini
Afzal A. Khan
You have raised a very interesting point.
I also feel that many Music Directors may not actually
think of a raaga and then compose their songs in that
raaga. But the nature of true "Indian" music is such
that many compositions do carry a "whiff" of some raaga.
Some months back, there was a thread about songs in Bhairavi
and while giving examples from Shankar-Jaikishan's composi-
tions, I had emphasised this --- that the songs cited contain
the flavour of that raaga, although they may not satisfy the
complete notation. Some of their latter-day songs, where
the electric guitar, accordion and other western instruments
are prominent, also happen to give the impression of Bhairavi.
Examples : "SapnoN ka saudaagar aaya" or "Mere man ki ganga".
Recently, in a TV programme, it was mentioned that a song
composed by Anu Malik (of all the people !) for "Refugee"
had notes of not one but two Raagas. The song for which
he got the National Award was "Aisa lagta hai", where this
opening line is in Yaman and the next line "warna dil kyoN
dhaRakta..." is supposed to be in Bihaag. And he openly
confessed that he was unaware of this !
Many Music Directors, particularly of the "Golden Era" had
had a good grounding in classical music and there must have
been a good deal of deliberate raaga-based composition in
their output. But, except for some examples (or exceptions)
here and there, honest and earnest efforts in this direction
have been few and far between. One such exception that I
can recall now was the "One Two Ka Four" song " KHaamoshiyaaN
gungunaane lageeN". As an aside, I do wish that A. R. Rehman
had asked some other female singer to croon this song.
By way of contrast, I can cite the example of the "Devta"
song (old) : "Kaise aaooN Jamuna ke teer". It is in chaste
Bhairavi --- an old Bandish that must have been sung by many
reputed classical singers. I have in my collection, this
Bandish sung by the late Ustaad Abdul Kareem Khan, recorded
somewhere in the mid-thirties. But, I have no hesitation in
confessing that I much prefer the Lata rendition. Despite
the constraints of time (about 3 minutes, 20 seconds for a
78 rpm record), this along with the Geeta Roy "LaRki" song
("BaaT chalat nayi chunri" seem to me the most complete
examples of a Bhairavi recital. Just my opinion.
As an example of a composition getting a garb of a raaga
(accidentally ?) Dutta Roy has cited the song from "Yes Boss"
--- "Jaata hai tu kahaaN" which is in Shuddh Kalyaan. I
don't know if this is true of the main song or just one
stanza which contains Bhojpuri lyrics. The tune for that
particular stanza is a little different.
Afzal
Surajit A. Bose
suma...@ee.iitb.ac.in (Sumantra Dutta Roy) wrote:
Nice list. Some of your raaga attributions are a bit dubious: "saa.Njh
bha_ii ghar aajaa", e.g., is not in Marwa beyond the first line. A true
filmic Marwa is from Saaz aur Awaz. The long ghost sequence "na phuulo.n
kii duniyaa, na taaro.n kii duniyaa" has an extended section in the
raag, that begins:
paayaliyaa baavarii baaje
payaliyaa morii
jhanana jhanana jhana jhananana baaje
payaliyaa baavarii baaje
The whole section works beautifully, as Marwa is an unsettling kind of
raag to begin with.
Another light Marwa is the Marathi bhaavgiit "rasikaa mii kaise gaauu
giit", beautifully sung by Anuradha Paudwal.
> Some Ragas in which I am not aware of any film songs are:
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Madhuvanti
erm, there's a little-known Lata-Madan Mohan confection that goes
"rasm\-e\-ulafat ko nibhaae.N to nibhaae.N kaise". I know it's obscure,
and very hard to come by, but do try and get a hold of it, it's quite
fetching, really.
There's also a lovely Tamil song by Vani Jairam.
> Soordasi Malhar
well, the beginning of "saavan aaye yaa na aaye" is in Brindavani
Sarang, which is close enough, especially given that such fine
distinctions are probably beyond Naushad anyway <g>
> Sahana
> Bhavani
> Shankara
"ruum jhuum chaal tihaari"
"bemurawwat bewafaa begaanaa\-e\-dil aap hai.n"
None of the raags that have been listed as rare in film songs strike me
as being good candidates. Deepak, Bhavani, etc. are esoteric, barely
heard on the concert stage. If they're rare in film songs, it's because
they're rare, period.
There is, however, one "big" raag, recorded and performed very often, in
which I can't recall a single film song: Shree.
-s
Surajit A. Bose
she...@emirates.net.ae (shekhar) wrote:
> Kalavati has been used quite often. Offhand:
"subah aur shaam kaam hii kaam" (Uljhan?)
> Jaunpuri:
>
> - Jab dil ko satawe gham (Sargam)
No, it's in Dev Gandhar, close to Jaunpuri but definitely a different
raag.
-s
shekhar
> Tilang:
>
>
> - Sajan sang kaahe (Parvarish)
>
>
Correction: The song is from Main Nashe Mein Hoon
Regards
Shekhar
Harish
> In article <43e4018a.02092...@posting.google.com>,
> suma...@ee.iitb.ac.in (Sumantra Dutta Roy) wrote:
>
> Nice list. Some of your raaga attributions are a bit dubious: "saa.Njh
> bha_ii ghar aajaa", e.g., is not in Marwa beyond the first line. A true
> filmic Marwa is from Saaz aur Awaz. The long ghost sequence "na phuulo.n
> kii duniyaa, na taaro.n kii duniyaa" has an extended section in the
> raag, that begins:
>
> paayaliyaa baavarii baaje
> payaliyaa morii
> jhanana jhanana jhana jhananana baaje
> payaliyaa baavarii baaje
>
> The whole section works beautifully, as Marwa is an unsettling kind of
> raag to begin with.
>
> Another light Marwa is the Marathi bhaavgiit "rasikaa mii kaise gaauu
> giit", beautifully sung by Anuradha Paudwal.
I think, 'kanha re kanha' from 'Truck Driver' is based on Marwa.
>
> > Some Ragas in which I am not aware of any film songs are:
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Madhuvanti
>
> erm, there's a little-known Lata-Madan Mohan confection that goes
> "rasm\-e\-ulafat ko nibhaae.N to nibhaae.N kaise". I know it's obscure,
> and very hard to come by, but do try and get a hold of it, it's quite
> fetching, really.
>
> There's also a lovely Tamil song by Vani Jairam.
>
> > Soordasi Malhar
>
> well, the beginning of "saavan aaye yaa na aaye" is in Brindavani
> Sarang, which is close enough, especially given that such fine
> distinctions are probably beyond Naushad anyway <g>
>
> -s
Beyond Naushad? I thought Naushad was the most classically inclined
(and knowledgeable) MD of Hindi film music.
Harish Kini
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
often on RMIM, somewhat deservedly so. He has composed good
classically-based songs, but he seems to have a funny way of showing off his
"guardian-of-classical-music" label.
Sanjeev
Ajit
> suma...@ee.iitb.ac.in (Sumantra Dutta Roy) wrote:
>
>
> Another light Marwa is the Marathi bhaavgiit "rasikaa mii kaise gaauu
> giit", beautifully sung by Anuradha Paudwal.
>
How about MAVALTYA DINAKARA? Is it based on Marva? Just my guess.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Madhuvanti
>
> erm, there's a little-known Lata-Madan Mohan confection that goes
> "rasm\-e\-ulafat ko nibhaae.N to nibhaae.N kaise". I know it's obscure,
> and very hard to come by, but do try and get a hold of it, it's quite
> fetching, really.
I wouldnt call this an "obscure" song at all. Its a wonderful song and
has a fantastic sitar piece right at the end. Its from Dil ki Raahein,
which has a wonderful raagamaalika by Manna Dey, and a very nice
Usha-Manna Dey duet "apne suron mein....". There is yet another ghazal
by Lata in that movie - "aap ki baatein kahein ya...".
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/XX0100031T
Is "ko birahini ..." from Chala Vaahi Des also based on Madhuvanti. It
sounds a bit similar. I know this isnt the right way of trying to
recognize raagas but,.... :-)
>
> There's also a lovely Tamil song by Vani Jairam.
>
Yep. Its ennuLLil engO by Ilayaraaja for a movie Rosappoo
Ravikaikkari. (ignore my spelling mistakes in the film's name). What
is fascinating is Vani's aalaaps near the end of every stanza. What a
moving rendition!
http://www.dhool.com/cgi-bin/display.pl?order=title&start=0&offset=20&query=singer1%3d'Vani%20Jayaram'&prevq=singer1%3d'Vani%20Jayaram'
(the very first song).
Thanks,
---a
aanand
1. Mavalatya Dinkara is based on raag Malavati by Kumar gandharva. Its
raag based on MArwa. Don't knaow exact notes which u cna get from
anup raag vilas.. The book of Kumar's bandish books. IF i remember
vaguely the roginoinal bandish is mhara mujra. hridaynath sings it
quite oftern in his concerts.
2. One of first few songs of hridaynath : barse bundiys sawan ki.. is
gues is in either surdai or ramdasi malhar.
3. main piya teri ..i thought was typical SJ bhairavi and not bhupal
todi.
These are ganapati days.. heard gajanana shri ganaraya by lata?HM
quite often. Its has got lot of shades of Main piya teri.
4. Onew more example of bilaskhani todi is datta dsavjekar asha song..
'rama radhu nandana. ' beautifull song !!!
& thanks for remoinding ko birahini ko dukh dayi ho..haven't heard for
ages..
rgds
Anand.
musicad...@yahoo.com (Ajit) wrote in message news:<c9042caa.0209...@posting.google.com>...
Harish
> If you do enough searches on Naushad, you will also see that he is bashed
> often on RMIM, somewhat deservedly so.
I know. But then all successful people have bashers and worshippers.
> He has composed good
> classically-based songs, but he seems to have a funny way of showing off his
> "guardian-of-classical-music" label.
>
> Sanjeev
Now (this showing off bit), is it through his music, or shooting
through his mouth? In case of latter, it should not take away any
credit from his musical achievements.
HK
naniwadekar
Sanjeev Ramabhadran <sanjeev.r...@duke.edu> wrote -
>
> If you do enough searches on Naushad, you will also see that he is bashed
> often on RMIM, somewhat deservedly so. He has composed good
> classically-based songs, but he seems to have a funny way of showing off
> his "guardian-of-classical-music" label.
>
> Sanjeev
>
Naushad certainly has composed good classical-based songs.
But nothing about him stands out in any special sense.
For example, he doesn't have the ability to compose a fiendishly
brilliant song like 'karam ki gati nyaari, santo'. Nor has he handled
raagas less commonly heard in film music, much less raagas heard
rarely even in classical concerts. His showing off his love of
classical music can be dismissed when it stops amusing.
One person who has composed brilliant songs based on raagas
which are almost never used in film or light music (and indeed are
not expected to be used so regularly) is Jitendra Abhisheki.
His natyageets in Bihagda (mii maanaapamaanaa), Alaiya? Bilawal
(din gele bhajanaaviiN saare), raag-mala (suurat piyaa ki),
Bhatiyar (arth_shoonya bhaase maj haa), Sampoorna Malkauns
(ashii sakhii sahacharii), to name just a few, are magnificent.
Pat-bihag, Lalit Pancham, are not among the more common
raagas even in classical concert circuit; he has handled them, too.
Even his songs in raagas like Dhaani, Nand, Yaman stand
testimony to his astounding imagination.
It is true that natyageets are not very easy to take to and are
nothing like as popular among common people as film songs.
But Hridaynath's non-film or Abhisheki's natyageet tunes
are on a level quite beyond Naushad.
Talking of Hridaynath, he has mastered a raag rarely used
in film music : Gorakh-kalyan. I don't know how difficult
the raag might be for lesser MDs, but it is not much used.
I wish Abhogi were used more often than it is.
By the way, one of Hridaynath's earliest (probably the very first)
tunes is 'nis din barasat nain hamaare'. I remember a friend
telling me that it is in Kaushik Ranjani. (Malini Rajurkar has
a commercial release in this raag.) Why a genius like HM
had such an undistinguished film career is a mystery to me.
(The puny score in Lekin doesn't count; certainly not from
a giant like him.) If he had played upto his true (and proven)
potential, we should have had many gems in less used raagas.
- dn
aanand
1. Mavallyata dinkara : Malavati
2. mogra phulala : Gorakh kalyan
3. Nis din brasat : chandra kaus
4. barse bundiya sawan ki : Ramdasi malhar
5. Ko birhini : madhuwanti
6. ud jare kaga : kaushi dhani( bhinna shadja)
7.pail to ge kau kokatahe : bairagi bhirav
8. de mal de chandrike : jan sammohini
9 Ye hum jo hijr me : Shyam kalyan
10 zhute naina bole : bilaskhani todi
11 jivalga : shree gauri
12 dayaghana : purvi
13 purva dishela arun rathavar : bhup nat
Can somebody update or increaase this list
rgds
Anand.
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<amojgo$7li7e$1...@ID-75735.news.dfncis.de>...
Ek Tanhaa
Lata Mangeshkar has also sung "nis din barsat nain humaare" in 1957 I
have posted it in my brief case at http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tanhaa11
for those who want to listen to it.
Tanhaa
Sumantra Dutta Roy
> Talking of Hridaynath, he has mastered a raag rarely used
> in film music : Gorakh-kalyan. I don't know how difficult
Jagjit Singh has a nice rendering of a Ghazal in Gorakh-Kalyan in his
album `Rishton mein Darar Aayee'. If we include the `Raag Pradhaan'
Bangla songs as well, I believe Pt. Ajoy Chakravarty has a nice song
in this very sweet raga. But perhaps the most pleasantly surprising
use was for a jingle in a TV ad for a Paint (Asian Paints ?)
``Zindagi ... Zindagi ko ... haseen kar rahaa hai.
Naye-naye rang ... koi bhar rahaa hai.''
It used to be fairly regular on DD quite a few years back.
> By the way, one of Hridaynath's earliest (probably the very first)
> tunes is 'nis din barasat nain hamaare'. I remember a friend
> telling me that it is in Kaushik Ranjani. (Malini Rajurkar has
> a commercial release in this raag.) Why a genius like HM
My knowledge of raga grammar is very limited (if not absent,
altogether), a Sangeet Sarita program on Vividha-Bharati
(7:30am-7:45am), in which Pt. Brij Bhushan Kabra mentions this very
song, beautifully sung by Lata Mangeshkar, as being in Jog Kauns. It
sounded as if it had elements from both Jog, as well as the `-Kauns'
series. Well, for all we know, it might be a case of two names for the
same raga, a la Nand Kalyan and Anandi.
About Lekin, yes, some hold the view that he was obsessed with
Mishra-Mand, but even then, Lekin was an extrmely refreshing change
from the run-of-the mill stuff that had stared coming into film music
from about a decade earlier.
With warm regards,
Sumantra.
Surajit A. Bose
suma...@ee.iitb.ac.in (Sumantra Dutta Roy) wrote:
> > By the way, one of Hridaynath's earliest (probably the very first)
> > tunes is 'nis din barasat nain hamaare'. I remember a friend
> > telling me that it is in Kaushik Ranjani.
> (7:30am-7:45am), in which Pt. Brij Bhushan Kabra mentions this very
> song, beautifully sung by Lata Mangeshkar, as being in Jog Kauns. It
> sounded as if it had elements from both Jog, as well as the `-Kauns'
> series. Well, for all we know, it might be a case of two names for the
> same raga, a la Nand Kalyan and Anandi.
Sumantra is right, Nani is wrong. "nisa dina barasata nain hamaare" is
not in Kaushik Ranjani, but in Jog Kauns.
Who are this "we" who think that Jog Kauns and Kaushik Ranjani are the
same raag? Is that the royal we, Sumantra? 8-) They are two different
raagas. Jog Kauns blends elements of Jog with those of Chandrakauns;
Kaushik Ranjani has special prayogs of shuddha rishabh within a
Chandrakauns base. They're certainly related, but they're far from being
the same raaga.
I am aware of two commercial releases of Jog Kauns, one by Veena
Sahasrabuddhe and the other, an excellent one by Kunda Weling. The one
commercial release of Kaushik Ranjani that I have heard is by Prabhakar
Karekar.
To clear up another one of Nani's sillinesses: Of course practically any
madhyalay or drut bandish will cover more than one cycle of the taal and
so will have two or three landings on the sam. This doesn't mean the sam
"changes". Take the well known Yaman bandish "mai.n vaarii vaarii
jaauu.Ngii priitam paase, kab aave.nge more mandiravaa". A singer who's
taking a series of taans that end around upper Sa' will probably return
to the sam via "vaarii vaarii jaauu.Ngii"; the same singer, taking a
series of taans that ends on or around middle Sa, will probably return
to the sam with "kab aave.nge". Singers do this all the time, and
there's nothing remarkable about it.
-s
naniwadekar
Surajit A. Bose <psur...@netscape.net> wrote -
>
> I am aware of two commercial releases of Jog Kauns, one by Veena
> Sahasrabuddhe and the other, an excellent one by Kunda Weling. The one
> commercial release of Kaushik Ranjani that I have heard is by Prabhakar
> Karekar.
>
I think it was later released on cassette, too. Alurkar used
to record Vasantrao's mehfil rendition of Jogkauns 10-15
years ago. I think he has now released it commercially
under his own label.
> To clear up another one of Nani's sillinesses: Of course practically any
> madhyalay or drut bandish will cover more than one cycle of the taal and
> so will have two or three landings on the sam. This doesn't mean the sam
> "changes".
>
I don't know why you brought up that point here. But you haven't
so much as got wrong end of the stick but some other stick entirely.
The 'sam' being discussed is one in the Khokar cheez - 'aaj aanand'.
Rajan has posted clips by Kesarbai and Mansur. Shaila Datar has
used Kesarbai's rendition as model for her rendition (so to speak).
The sam does 'change'. But Shailatai's explanation about how the
sam changes strikes me as so strange that I don't want to discuss
that sam before getting feedback from Rajan or Nachiketa.
Even in case of madhyalaya bandishes, two landings on the sam
are probably not as common as you are making them out to be.
Kumar Gandharva has released 6 madhyalaya bandishes on an
LP : Shree-kalyan, Shree, Kalyan, Puriya Dhanashri, Gauri Basant
and Sohini. In fact Sohini bandish could qualify as drut. Yet all
the six bandishes use just one sam for their mukhada. They are all
in teentaal, and one could agree that for a jhaptaal or ektaal bandish,
the probability of two or more landings on the sam would be little
higher. But 'practically any madhyalaya bandish would use two
OR THREE sams' ? You are not making much sense
when you say that.
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> higher. But 'practically any madhyalaya bandish would use two
> OR THREE sams' ? You are not making much sense
> when you say that.
That's because I didn't say that. Selective misquoting.
-s
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Even in case of madhyalaya bandishes, two landings on the sam
> are probably not as common as you are making them out to be.
The Khokar bandish you're talking about lands on the sam three times
during the sthaayii, and the sam does not "Change". Chetan's explanation
is correct.
-s
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
"aanand" <anandj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1a3f12b.02092...@posting.google.com...
> Some of hridaynath Songs from less known raags
> 1. Mavallyata dinkara : Malavati
> 2. mogra phulala : Gorakh kalyan
Also, "Phir Mujhe Deeda-e-tar Yaad Aaya".
> 4. barse bundiya sawan ki : Ramdasi malhar
Huh? I don't hear Ramdasi Malhar in this...anyone?
> 5. Ko birhini : madhuwanti
> 6. ud jare kaga : kaushi dhani( bhinna shadja)
> 7.pail to ge kau kokatahe : bairagi bhirav
> 8. de mal de chandrike : jan sammohini
I don't think Janasammohini falls in the "less used" category (maybe doesn't
come to mind right away, but I think it's seen fair amount of use).
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:amojgo$7li7e$1...@ID-75735.news.dfncis.de...
>
> >
> > If you do enough searches on Naushad, you will also see that he is
bashed
> > often on RMIM, somewhat deservedly so. He has composed good
> > classically-based songs, but he seems to have a funny way of showing off
> > his "guardian-of-classical-music" label.
> >
> > Sanjeev
> >
>
> Naushad certainly has composed good classical-based songs.
> But nothing about him stands out in any special sense.
My gripe above aside, this is not true. Particularly his earlier melodies,
cerebral or not, classical or not, have a gripping emotional warmth (though
it helps to have the cavalcade of singers that he did).
> For example, he doesn't have the ability to compose a fiendishly
> brilliant song like 'karam ki gati nyaari, santo'. Nor has he handled
> raagas less commonly heard in film music, much less raagas heard
> rarely even in classical concerts. His showing off his love of
> classical music can be dismissed when it stops amusing.
Fiendishly brilliant? It's a beautiful song...what is fiendishly brilliant
about it?
I don't want to put down "handling of less commonly heard in film or
classical music ragas" as a necessary and sufficient condition for being
worth anything as a music director. Ilaiyaraja has done this, but I think if
forays into commonly heard stuff are not enjoyable, I don't really care as
much about the rest.
Agreed about Pt. Jitendra Abhisheki and to some extent Hridayanath
Mangeshkar. But again, I think JA had been exposed to plenty of Bihagda and
probably just felt like putting "Mi Maanaapamaanaa" in it, not based on any
conscious thought that significant parts of the listening population had
very little exposure to Bihagda. To him, it might well have been like the
Yamans and Malkaunses of the world.
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
"Surajit A. Bose" <psur...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:psurajit-AB9106...@news.fu-berlin.de...
This is getting a little intense...why hasn't this gone to RMIC?
:-)
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>>
> I don't want to put down "handling of less commonly heard in film or
> classical music ragas" as a necessary and sufficient condition for being
> worth anything as a music director. Ilaiyaraja has done this, but I think if
> forays into commonly heard stuff are not enjoyable, I don't really care as
> much about the rest.
SORRY - this is a horribly ambiguous statement. I meant:
1) Ilaiyaraaja has done rare ragas.
2) Ilaiyaraaja has also done common ragas that I have enjoyed. If I
hadn't, I wouldn't have cared about the rare stuff.
Sanjeev
Surajit A. Bose
"Sanjeev Ramabhadran" <sanjeev.r...@duke.edu> wrote:
> > 4. barse bundiya sawan ki : Ramdasi malhar
>
> Huh? I don't hear Ramdasi Malhar in this...anyone?
I don't either. "ghirii ghaTaae.N aasamaan par" is closer to Ramdasi
Malhar than this song is, but even that is not really in Ramdasi Malhar.
> > 5. Ko birhini : madhuwanti
The taal is far more interesting: it's the only "light" song I know set
to dhamaar.
> > 9 Ye hum jo hijr me : Shyam kalyan
IMO does not do justice to the raag .... Shyam Kalyan is sweet and
appealing, but this composition seems contrived.
-s
Rajan P. Parrikar
>There is, however, one "big" raag, recorded and performed very often, in
>which I can't recall a single film song: Shree.
The movie AANDOLAN (music by Pannalal Ghosh) carries a
song in Raga Shree.
Warm regards,
r
naniwadekar
>
> > Even in case of madhyalaya bandishes, two landings on the sam
> > are probably not as common as you are making them out to be.
>
> The Khokar bandish you're talking about lands on the sam three times
> during the sthaayii, and the sam does not "Change". Chetan's explanation
> is correct.
>
> -s
>
That the Khokar bandish 'aaj aanand' lands on the sam three times
during the sthaayii has no relevance to the point I had raised about
the shift/change in the sam. I will take up the issue on rmic later;
right now, I am in the same position as I had specified on rmic.
Just to repeat it, Shaila Datar has based her rendition of the Khokar
bandish on Kesarbai's treatment of the same bandish. According
to Shaila Datar, both the explanations (mine and Chetan's) are wrong.
But I am not convinced by her explanation. I need to discuss the
three viewpoints with experts like Rajan Parrikar and Nachiketa
Sharma before making any further comments about them.
- dn
naniwadekar
> > But nothing about him stands out in any special sense.
>
> My gripe above aside, this is not true. Particularly his earlier melodies,
> cerebral or not, classical or not, have a gripping emotional warmth
(though
> it helps to have the cavalcade of singers that he did).
>
Let me explain what I meant.
stmt 1 : Naushad certainly has composed good classical-based songs.
stmt 2 : But nothing about him stands out in any special sense.
statement 2 should be read with reference to stmt 1. You were
responding to the statement that Naushad was the most classically
inclined and knowledgeable MD. And I meant that nothing about
him stands out in any special sense for that claim to be justifiable.
I agree that his earlier melodies have gripping emotional warmth.
> > For example, he doesn't have the ability to compose a fiendishly
> > brilliant song like 'karam ki gati nyaari, santo'. Nor has he handled
> > raagas less commonly heard in film music, much less raagas heard
> > rarely even in classical concerts. His showing off his love of
> > classical music can be dismissed when it stops amusing.
>
> Fiendishly brilliant? It's a beautiful song...what is fiendishly brilliant
> about it?
>
If somebody else had asked me this question, I would have asked a friend
like you to bail me out. Now that you have asked the question, I am
in a spot of bother. It is not a run-of-the-mill Hamsadhwani song (like
'jaa tose nahi bolu kanhaiya'). The laya is slower for a light song, but
that is not unusual for a Hridaynath composition. It is my guess that
even the swar-prayogas used in 'karam ki gati nyaari' are highly
imaginative. Even a (standard) khayal recital in Hamsadhwani does
not present gestures like those heard in this song, IMO. And I don't
think it is all due to Lata's brilliant rendition. Hridaynath's composition
also plays a large part in making it sound so.
>
> 1) Ilaiyaraaja has done rare ragas.
> 2) Ilaiyaraaja has also done common ragas that I have enjoyed. If I
> hadn't, I wouldn't have cared about the rare stuff.
>
Why? If a composer decides to do just rare raagas, we can surely enjoy
them so long as he composes good songs in them.
- dn
naniwadekar
Sumantra Dutta Roy <suma...@ee.iitb.ac.in> wrote -
>
> > By the way, one of Hridaynath's earliest (probably the very first)
> > tunes is 'nis din barasat nain hamaare'. I remember a friend
> > telling me that it is in Kaushik Ranjani.
>
> altogether), a Sangeet Sarita program on Vividha-Bharati
> (7:30am-7:45am), in which Pt. Brij Bhushan Kabra mentions this very
> song, beautifully sung by Lata Mangeshkar, as being in Jog Kauns. It
> sounded as if it had elements from both Jog, as well as the `-Kauns'
> series. Well, for all we know, it might be a case of two names for the
> same raga, a la Nand Kalyan and Anandi.
>
Before I get to the main point, let me mention a beautiful Marathi
song in Jogkauns : 'raamaa hridayii raam naahii', composed
by Vasant Prabhu and sung by Lata.
I asked some experts for their feedback about 'nis din barasat'.
Their feedback is worth sharing with the forum.
First Ajay Nerurkar -
"
It's definitely closer to Jogkauns than it is to Kaushik
Ranjani. KR does not use either the Pa or the shuddha Ga
and both these swars are prominently seen in this song. But
it lacks the characteristic meend from komal ga to Sa that
is characteristic of Jog (and therefore of Jogkauns).
That's why I'd hesitate to label it an unambiguous
Jogkauns. You might recall Sudhir Phadke's "laaDakee
shakuntalaa" from Suvaasini with that meend on the laa of
shakuntalaa. That is Jogkauns.
Ajay
"
And Vish Krishnan -
"
The Lata song in question hits all the jogkauns notes, but
is missing the necessary conditions. Jogkauns must display
"jog", right? The weight of the whole world must fall on
the S->g S or even n"->g S, as in "dard-minnat-kash-e-
dawaa na hua". It is not quite there, although in defense
of the jogkauns argument, the S->g could easily have been
worked into the song without too much variation if Lata had
only been instructed to do so. The song falls within legit
boundaries of jogkauns, in my opinion, from a light music
standpoint.
"
----------------------------------------------
naniwadekar
>
> Huh? I don't hear Ramdasi Malhar in this...anyone?
>
This is what Vish Krishnan had written to me about 'barse bundiyan'.
"
The song is replete with infidelities, making it a moving
target for the raaga analyst. Just a few observations in
passing. The preamble promises good clean baageshri. A
casual M D S' follows along with strong pancham, just to
keep you from getting too comfortable with the idea,
although the baageshri flavour persists. There are at least
2 places that come teasingly close to a malhaar-ish
commitment (the lines "umaDa ghumaDa chahu.n" and "na.nhi
na.nhi boo.ndana"). They move rapidly away into a M P g M D
phrase, clearly begging the shahaana question. But it
remains unaddressed. You wait then for some hint of bahaar,
but instead you find an almost deliberate avoidance of
anything in the nature of (g M n D) or (G M n D), not to
mention that the shuddha nishaad is missing entirely.
Perhaps there exists a raaga that rolls all these
charactersitics into one. Otherwise, I would suggest that
such cold-blooded bait-and-switch is not common for light
songs. It requires conscious violation of the law, and
therefore deep understanding of the law in the first place.
But in order for such violation to be musically endearing,
it must fulfil yet another requirement - genuine respect
for simplicity, in both design and implementation. "
---------------
Vish had followed up this analysis with a note about a dangling
reference to Madhamaad Sarang somewhere in the song, but I
have not archived that note.
Is Ramdasi Malhar to be heard anywhere? Do the two Malhar-ish
commitments mentioned by Vish justify a reference to Ramdasi
Malhar? Or is Madhmaad Sarang close to Ramdasi Malhar, though
the reference to Madhmaad is only a dangling one in the song?
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I asked some experts for their feedback about 'nis din barasat'.
> Their feedback is worth sharing with the forum.
>
> First Ajay Nerurkar -
>
> "
> It's definitely closer to Jogkauns than it is to Kaushik
> Ranjani. KR does not use either the Pa or the shuddha Ga
> and both these swars are prominently seen in this song. But
> it lacks the characteristic meend from komal ga to Sa that
> is characteristic of Jog (and therefore of Jogkauns).
> That's why I'd hesitate to label it an unambiguous
> Jogkauns.
With all due deference, Dr Nerurkar seems to have forgotten the song's
second line: "sadaa rahat" is definitely "sa Ga ma ga sa" (shudhha
madhyam), and while the movement from komal gandhaar to shadaj is not as
elaborate as one might wish in a canonical Jog, the Jog signature is
unmistakable. The song is definitely Jog-kauns. Unambiguously enough for
a film song, anyway, as Sir Vish says:
> The song falls within legit
> boundaries of jogkauns, in my opinion, from a light music
> standpoint.
There is not even a scintilla of a doubt that the song is not in Kaushik
Ranjani, as you originally claimed it was. What, nani, when somebody
informs you that you're mistaken, you need to rush to expert opinion
before you'll believe it?! Your ego defenses are as pathetic as your
understanding of raagas.
BTW, I wonder what Vish and Dr Nerurkar think about your labeling them
"experts". I am pretty sure that Nachiketa Sharma, another one of your
"experts", would laugh off any such description.
-s
naniwadekar
Surajit A. Bose <psur...@netscape.net> wrote -
>
>
> There is not even a scintilla of a doubt that the song is not in Kaushik
> Ranjani, as you originally claimed it was. What, nani, when somebody
> informs you that you're mistaken, you need to rush to expert opinion
> before you'll believe it?! Your ego defenses are as pathetic as your
> understanding of raagas.
>
> BTW, I wonder what Vish and Dr Nerurkar think about your labeling them >
"experts". I am pretty sure that Nachiketa Sharma, another one of your
> "experts", would laugh off any such description.
>
A friend of mine had told me 'nis din barasat' was in Kaushik Ranjani.
When Sumantra said Brij Bhushan Kabra had attributed it to Jogkauns,
I thought I would ask experts like Vish and Ajay as the Kaushik
Ranjani claim had come from someone who had access to an expert
himself and who has overall been a reliable source of information.
BTW, don't be an ass, Surajit. I didn't claim the song was in
Kaushik Ranjani. I had merely mentioned that I was informed
thus by a friend.
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sanjeev Ramabhadran <sanjeev.r...@duke.edu> wrote -
> >
> > > 4. barse bundiya sawan ki : Ramdasi malhar
> >
> > Huh? I don't hear Ramdasi Malhar in this...anyone?
> >
> Is Ramdasi Malhar to be heard anywhere?
(Sigh) For the third and hopefully last time: No.
Okay, more explanation. Ramdasi Malhar is distinct from other Malhars in
that it uses both gandhaars. To make Ramdasi Malhar discernable, one
needs a spaSht shuddha gandhar:
ma---->Re, Pa, ma Pa ga ma--->Re Sa, Re ni' Sa Re Ga
(ma = shuddha)
The shuddha gandhar and Ramdasi signatures are, to my hearing, entirely
absent from the song. And Sanjeev Ramabhadran said the same thing
several posts ago. Surely you could do him the courtesy of acknowledging
that he generally knows what he's talking about? Your habitual
second-guessing of anything said about classical music on the newsgroup
(and recycling every such post through "experts") would make more sense
if YOUR feeling for sur and raag was at least halfway decent. But just
because you don't know anything about raagas, there's no reason to
assume Sanjeev doesn't either.
To elaborate on a throwaway comment in an earlier post of mine: "ghirii
ghaTaae.N aasamaan par" at least begins within driving distance of
Ramdasi Malhar; the opening line suggests it quite strongly. Of course
the second line shatters the illusion by taking shuddha nishaad in the
avaroh; prayogs such as "Ni Dha Ni Sa" abound in the song. It's possibly
in one of those aprachalit Malhars, y'know those very Keatsian entities
("heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard / are sweeter") with
wonderfully evocative names like Chanchalsas Malhar or Charju ka Malhar
or Dhuliya Malhar, but that really is a matter for expert opinion.
Back to "barase buu.Ndiyaa.N":
> Do the two Malhar-ish
> commitments mentioned by Vish justify a reference to Ramdasi
> Malhar?
No. Surely he would have said so if they did.
> Or is Madhmaad Sarang close to Ramdasi Malhar,
No! The whole POINT of Madhumaad Sarang is that it is a Sarang and
emphatically not (for example) Megh Malhar. To get to Ramdasi Malhar
from Madhumaad Sarang, one has to change two trains, take a bus, and
then walk the last few blocks.
> though
> the reference to Madhmaad is only a dangling one in the song?
"umagyo mero man" is
ma Pa Sa", ni Pa, (Pa)ni Pa ma Re
(ma = shuddha)
which could be Madhumaad or even Brindavani Sarang if only there was
anything in the rest of the song that was even vaguely Sarang-like.
IMO it's a lovely tune, holds together organically and does not have the
feel of a deliberate raag-mosaic with bits and pieces borrowed from
Shahana, Bahar, Sarang, etc. I think Hridaynath was just pushing the
boundaries of Bageshree, and pushed past them enough that the song
suggests Bageshree strongly in places without actually being in
Bageshree. A tentative suggestion to Vish: instead of Shahana, can't we
hear Bageshree-kanada there? Though I can see why one might think of
Shahana, I can't really hear Shahana, the overall Bageshree ambit is too
distracting.
And again IMO, it's not that uncommon at all for light songs to perform
such baits-and-switches: another example that leaps to mind is "mere
sa.ng gaa, gunagunaa," which drives me to distraction because it could
with equal justice be said to be based on Bageshree or Rageshree. Or
"saa.Njh bha_ii, ghar aajaa", which promises Marwa so wonderfully for
the first twenty seconds or so before getting really strange. Or "rainaa
biitii jaa_e", which seduces you into Todi and then takes you elsewhere.
All fine.
-s
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A friend of mine had told me 'nis din barasat' was in Kaushik Ranjani.
> When Sumantra said Brij Bhushan Kabra had attributed it to Jogkauns,
> I thought I would ask experts like Vish and Ajay as the Kaushik
> Ranjani claim had come from someone who had access to an expert
> himself and who has overall been a reliable source of information.
And now two other friends have informed you that it's not in kaushik
ranjani. Dear me! Which friends are you going to believe? Obviously
since you yourself don't have the raaga understanding to assess the
validity of any such identifications, you're gonna have to rely on,
basically, gossip about the song rather than the song itself.
A simple expedient such as LISTENING to any song to figure out its raaga
is beyond you; a trifle like that, however, isn't gonna stop you from
blowing hot air every which way about the song's raaga. In this you are
the true inheritor of the Raju Bharatan mantle of raaga
misidentification.
> BTW, don't be an ass, Surajit. I didn't claim the song was in
> Kaushik Ranjani. I had merely mentioned that I was informed
> thus by a friend.
Right, nani, my mistake. I should have remembered that whenever you say
*anything* about classical music it's always second-hand: my friend
says, this website says, this expert says, the granddaughter-in-law of
this long-dead singer says. It's because your first-hand understanding
is non-existent. You wouldn't recognize Kaushik Ranjani if it came up
and BIT you.
-s
naniwadekar
> no reason to assume Sanjeev doesn't either.
>
Surajit, don't get ahead of yourself, moron.
I have never claimed any expertise in raags. But my guesses turn
out to be correct often enough for me to have some feel about
the raags. I don't need a certificate for that from an ass like you.
If I get any feedback from experts and post it on the forum to share it
with others, it is my business. I don't know why it hurts you when I
call Vish an expert, which he undoubtedly is. Even Rajan Parrikar
has acknowledged as much. You are coming across as such
a pathetic loser (sore that I am praising someone else and that
a very deserving fellow?), that there is no point in bothering to
respond to you. Your motive behind making some of your recent
posts is no concern of mine but you have cut a sorry figure.
Ignoring your silly posts is not difficult and I think that is
just what I will do.
- dn
naniwadekar
is beyond you; a trifle like that, however, isn't gonna stop you from
> blowing hot air every which way about the song's raaga. In this you are
> the true inheritor of the Raju Bharatan mantle of raaga
> misidentification.
>
Just to repeat what I wrote in another thread a few minutes ago :
Surajit, don't get ahead of yourself, moron.
I have never claimed any expertise in raags. But my guesses turn
out to be correct often enough for me to have some feel about
the raags. I don't need a certificate for that from an ass like you.
- dn
Surjit Singh
Surajit A. Bose wrote:
> In article <an90d2$bm0u7$1...@ID-75735.news.dfncis.de>,
> "naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
<GREATLY PROFOUND STUFF DELETED>
Right, nani, my mistake. I should have remembered that whenever you say
> *anything* about classical music it's always second-hand: my friend
> says, this website says, this expert says, the granddaughter-in-law of
> this long-dead singer says. It's because your first-hand understanding
> is non-existent. You wouldn't recognize Kaushik Ranjani if it came up
> and BIT you.
Now we are getting carried away. Ranjani is supposed to make you happy
or colored (as in manoranjan or ranjak), how can it bite?
Unless, of course, you mean in the software-sense as in this BIT of code
BI{y?}TEs?
>
> -s
>
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
http://films.hindi-movies-songs.com/
http://worldline.hindi-movies-songs.com/
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Surajit, don't get ahead of yourself, moron.
*You're* calling *me* a moron? bwaahaahaahaahaahaa
> I have never claimed any expertise in raags. But my guesses turn
> out to be correct often enough for me to have some feel about
> the raags. I don't need a certificate for that from an ass like you.
Such great feel for the raagas that you have to rely on the opinions of
several others to figure out what raagas "nisadina barasat" and "barase
buu.Ndiyaa.N" are in!
And that's just from this thread. I won't go into earlier threads or
real-time encounters that provide similarly spectacular examples of your
feel for raagas.
-s
naniwadekar
> several others to figure out what raagas "nisadina barasat" and "barase
> buu.Ndiyaa.N" are in!
>
I have been interacting both on-forum and off-forum with several
experts. The experts who correspond with me know exactly where
I stand. Don't flatter yourself that you alone can figure that out.
Do you think Vish is an idiot or has more time on his hand than
he knows what to do with to send me the detailed explanations
about songs when I request his feedback? The same goes for
other experts who give me their feedback also.
There is one thing, though. You are a bitter and pathetic loser
to take time off again and again to make the same point about
my not knowing anything about raagas. Your assertions cut no
ice and have been flushed down the toilet. They are now chasing
you down the drain. Do meet and embrace them again.
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have never claimed any expertise in raags. But my guesses turn
> out to be correct often enough for me to have some feel about
> the raags. I don't need a certificate for that from an ass like you.
>
> If I get any feedback from experts and post it on the forum to share it
> with others, it is my business. I don't know why it hurts you when I
> call Vish an expert, which he undoubtedly is. Even Rajan Parrikar
> has acknowledged as much.
Of course Vish is an expert. Nobody's denying that. What I'm decrying is
your silly, childish habit of seeking outside confirmation from several
sources whenever anybody on the forum says anything about classical
music. Hell, you can't even acknowledge Vish's expertise without making
sure it has Rajan's imprimatur! My point, exactly, is that you know so
little about music that you need to seek confirmation from "experts"
about everything: "nisadin barasat" is in Jog-Kauns because Vish says
so, Vish is an expert because Rajan says so, etc.
If your own ears cannot tell you that "nisadin barasat" is not in
Kaushik Ranjani, and "barase buu.Ndiiyaa.N" is not in Ramdasi Malhar,
then your posturing about expert opinions is worth zilch. If at your
request Vish analyzes "barase buu.Ndiyaa.N", and after reading his
learned and informed opinion your understanding of music is so limited,
you still can't figure out what he means ("Is the song in Ramdasi Malhar
or not? What does Madhumaad Sarang have to do with the song?"--these are
the questions you had AFTER you got Vish's opinions), then asking him
for his opinion is a waste of his time.
As for its being your business: when you post it on the forum, it is the
forum's business, i.e., no longer your private business, and I'm
therefore entitled to comment on it.
Oh and btw: the fact that you engage solely with the personal portions
of my posts while ignoring entirely everything I've written about the
raagas also says something both about your ego defenses and your alleged
"feel for the raags."
-s
naniwadekar
> your silly, childish habit of seeking outside confirmation from several
> sources whenever anybody on the forum says anything about classical
> music. Hell, you can't even acknowledge Vish's expertise without making
> sure it has Rajan's imprimatur! My point, exactly, is that you know so
> little about music that you need to seek confirmation from "experts"
> about everything: "nisadin barasat" is in Jog-Kauns because Vish says
> so, Vish is an expert because Rajan says so, etc.
>
> If your own ears cannot tell you that "nisadin barasat" is not in
> Kaushik Ranjani, and "barase buu.Ndiiyaa.N" is not in Ramdasi Malhar,
> then your posturing about expert opinions is worth zilch.
>
There was no posturing involved. When I am quoting someone else's
opinion, I am doing just that. And I quoted them because Vish's and
Ajay's posts made some points which had not been made before in
the thread. That shouldn't be too hard to understand even for an idiot
like you. That my ears cannot tell me whether 'nis din barasat' is in
Kaushik Ranjani is also obvious for everybody following the thread.
You are hardly making any illuminating observation when you
write about it.
Only a few days ago, I had no hesitation in questioning a statement
made by Ramrang himself on rmic. So your point that I seek Rajan's
imprimatur for everything is also shown to be utter nonsense.
> If at your
> request Vish analyzes "barase buu.Ndiyaa.N", and after reading his
> learned and informed opinion your understanding of music is so limited,
> you still can't figure out what he means ("Is the song in Ramdasi Malhar
> or not? What does Madhumaad Sarang have to do with the song?"--
> these are
> the questions you had AFTER you got Vish's opinions), then asking him
> for his opinion is a waste of his time.
>
You don't get to decide what is waste of Vish's time, idiot.
Let him decide that. And stop talking again and again about
my limited understanding of music. You don't get to decide
that point either. I don't need any certificate from an ass like you.
You are suffering from some complex for you to go on about
my lack of understanding of raagas. Join Bansijeff in the asylum.
He is also obsessed with others' understanding of music or
lack of it. You are his soulmate.
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If your own ears cannot tell you that "nisadin barasat" is not in
> > Kaushik Ranjani, and "barase buu.Ndiiyaa.N" is not in Ramdasi Malhar,
> > then your posturing about expert opinions is worth zilch.
> >
>
> There was no posturing involved.
<snip>
> Only a few days ago, I had no hesitation in questioning a statement
> made by Ramrang himself on rmic.
After yourself admitting that you have very limited feel for raagas, if
you can't see that questioning Ramrang's statements, quoting expert
opinions, etc., is posturing--then you're truly beyond help. Go in
peace, continue to be the inflated, insecure windbag you are; continue
to convince yourself that everything you do is justified, and that the
only basis for attacks on your behavior is that the attacker is
neurotic. Continue on your chosen course, and may God be with you.
-s
Ajay Nerurkar
"Surajit A. Bose" <psur...@netscape.net> wrote
> second line: "sadaa rahat" is definitely "sa Ga ma ga sa" (shudhha
> madhyam),
To my ears, "sadaa rahat" sounds something like MdnPMM. Even the possibility
that we might be using different shadjas doesn't make any sense. After this
"ritu ham par" at the end of the line has a meend from g to S but it's not a
Jog meend at all. While a film song has some leeway in conforming to a raag,
it cannot play fast and loose with certain basic requirements of the raag.
Ajay
P.S. I am not an expert, but I will defend to the death someone's right to
call me one.
Surajit A. Bose
"Ajay Nerurkar" <ajayne...@yahoo1729.com> wrote:
> "Surajit A. Bose" <psur...@netscape.net> wrote
>
> > second line: "sadaa rahat" is definitely "sa Ga ma ga sa" (shudhha
> > madhyam),
>
> To my ears, "sadaa rahat" sounds something like MdnPMM.
> that we might be using different shadjas doesn't make any sense. After this
> "ritu ham par" at the end of the line has a meend from g to S
Does it? I hear it as a mii.nD from ni to P. Really. 8-)
-s
Balu Nadig
Surajit, can you explain the 'contrived' part of 'Ye hum jo hijr' and
possibly point to some rendition of Shyam Kalyan that brings out its
sweetness and appeal? I
Regards
Balu Nadig
>
> -s
Surajit A. Bose
bna...@lehman.com (Balu Nadig) wrote:
> > > > 9 Ye hum jo hijr me : Shyam kalyan
> >
> > IMO does not do justice to the raag .... Shyam Kalyan is sweet and
> > appealing, but this composition seems contrived.
>
> Surajit, can you explain the 'contrived' part of 'Ye hum jo hijr' and
> possibly point to some rendition of Shyam Kalyan that brings out its
> sweetness and appeal? I
Unfortunately I can't think of any other film or light song in this raag
at all! Surprising, for it's a very shR^i.ngaarik raag. Madhubala
Jhaveri used to sing a lovely drut ektal bandish:
jaanat huu.N aisaa tum ko mai.n, o balamaa, aisaa tum ko main,
balamaa, tum ham san karat aisii chaturaa_ii
hamase chhupaa\-chhup sautan ghar jaavat
balamaa tum ham san karat aisii chaturaa_ii
There's a recording of this bandish by Ganapati Bhat; it's okay, but the
bhaav Madhuji would put into the "o balamaa" and the sweetness of her
voice in the mii.nD on "chaturaa_ii" lingers in my memory. (Roshanara
Begum has sung the same bandish in Kamod.)
Manik Verma has a recording that's leagues ahead of any other khayal
recording of Shyam Kalyan I have heard. The vilambit, "jiiyo mero laal",
is very appealing indeed.
Veena Sahasrabuddhe has a recording too: "mhaaraa rasiyaa". Whiz-bang
stuff; sweet charm is not perhaps something one would necessarily
associate with her gaayaki.
And there's the Gundecha Bandhu's dhamaar: "aaj bR^ij me.n". The
composition itself is exquisite. And the bros. present the raag with
great subtlety and care. The movement from tiivra madhyam to rishabh,
present in the bandish itself, is handled with great care, considering
how rarely khayal singers take that particular mii.nD in Shyam Kalyan.
As for "ye ham jo hijr me.n", the song just doesn't sound natural to me.
How can I explain? When I hear, for example, "har ek baat pe", it
doesn't sound to me as though the composer said, "Oh, let me compose a
song in Yaman" and then straitjacketed the words of the song into a
Yaman framework. When I hear "u.D jaa re kaagaa", likewise, the Kaushi
Dhani sounds very natural to the song. "ye ham jo hijr me.n"--it's as
though Hridaynath set out to compose a song in Shyam Kalyan as a
music-class homework exercise or something. Take the line
"diiwaar\-o\-dar ko dekhate hai.n". The
ReNi'Pa Sa, Re Ma Pa Ni Sa" Re" Ni Dha Ma Pa Ga ma Re
(Ma = tiivra, ma = shuddha)
is so ... formulaic, I can imagine some dude saying, "Hmm! I want to
establish Shyam-kalyan, so let me show the complete aaroh-avaroh as
clearly as possible as quickly as possible!"
There also seems to be no organic relation between the lyrics and the
tune here. Okay, there *never* is any transparent relation between words
and tune, but the point of a skilfully composed song is that the melody
should *seem* to emerge from the lyrics and vice-versa. Here, I listen
to that "dekhate hai.n" and the needlessly complicated taan / mii.nd /
swara sequence seems to be quite divorced from the words.
Or to put it another way: Chetan Vinchhi once quoted a line to me: "raag
se sur lagate hai.n, sur se raag nahii.n banataa" (The raag determines
how the swaras get applied; taking certain swaras alone doesn't define a
raag). That seems to me apt with regard to this song. All the
Shyam-kalyan swars and lakshanas are there, but the charm of the raag is
missing.
I don't feel passionately enough about the song to argue the point,
though, so if you want to tell me that I'm wrong, and the song is a
brilliant composition that does full justice to both Ghalib and
Shyam-kalyan, I'll shrug and take your word for it.
-s
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> In article <2d05cd51.02100...@posting.google.com>,
> bna...@lehman.com (Balu Nadig) wrote:
>
> > > > > 9 Ye hum jo hijr me : Shyam kalyan
> > >
> > > IMO does not do justice to the raag .... Shyam Kalyan is sweet and
> > > appealing, but this composition seems contrived.
> >
> > Surajit, can you explain the 'contrived' part of 'Ye hum jo hijr' and
> > possibly point to some rendition of Shyam Kalyan that brings out its
> > sweetness and appeal? I
>
>
> Unfortunately I can't think of any other film or light song in this raag
> at all! Surprising, for it's a very shR^i.ngaarik raag. Madhubala
> Jhaveri used to sing a lovely drut ektal bandish:
Well, Rafi's non-filmy gazal "Armaan Machal Rahe Hain Dil-e-Beqaraar Men"
(music by Jamaal Sen) is pretty much there. Not sure of its appeal for you.
On "Yeh Hum Jo Hijr", rather than the "formulaic"-ness of the Shyaam
Kalyaan, the choice of the "twice-as-slow" Dadra theka bothers me. I feel
like *that* was thrown in just to be different.
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> To elaborate on a throwaway comment in an earlier post of mine: "ghirii
> ghaTaae.N aasamaan par" at least begins within driving distance of
> Ramdasi Malhar; the opening line suggests it quite strongly. Of course
> the second line shatters the illusion by taking shuddha nishaad in the
> avaroh; prayogs such as "Ni Dha Ni Sa" abound in the song. It's possibly
> in one of those aprachalit Malhars
Actually, more than any Malhaar, that mukhda, with its M P g M n D N s"
piece, suggests Bahaar to me. Then, as you say, come the rest of the notes.
Sanjeev
naniwadekar
> > made by Ramrang himself on rmic.
>
> After yourself admitting that you have very limited feel for raagas, if
> you can't see that questioning Ramrang's statements, quoting expert
> opinions, etc., is posturing--then you're truly beyond help. Go in
> peace, continue to be the inflated, insecure windbag you are; continue
> to convince yourself that everything you do is justified, and that the
> only basis for attacks on your behavior is that the attacker is
> neurotic. Continue on your chosen course, and may God be with you.
>
> -s
>
What a jackass Surajit Bose is proving to be. I made a
comment on Ramrang's clip about Malkauns. Far from
dismissing it as posturing, Ajay Nerurkar joined the
issue and even agreed that Yaman provided a better test
of a vocalist's skill. In short, my post had its place on
rmic. Yet Surajit has to insist that it amounts to
posturing. What a dolt!
Even my statement that I am not an expert only testifies
to my humility. Not for nothing did Govt of India offer
to make me the first Bharat Ratna from the Hindustani
field before my humility made me suggest that the award
go to Ravi Shankar, another real ICM expert like
Parrikar, Naniwadekar and Nerurkar. The key seems to lie
in having that 'kar' in the name and in avoiding
B(h)OS(l)E in the name. Even Asha's great songs are
attributable to her having started as MangeshKAR. When
she took a surname with b-o-s-e forming part of it, it
was a portent of besura songs.
Jokes aside, I don't need any certificate. Not from Govt
of India, not even from Bhatkhande. I participate on rmic
and rmim to contribute what I can and learn what I can. I
know what I know (which is a lot) and I know what I don't
know (which is a BIG LOT). I have been talking with many
fellow listeners, some of them experts, on and off the
forum. I was even contacted over email by one of the
best-known contributors to rmic soon after I started
posting, even before I had got to know about him. The
contributors to rmim and rmic are not fools to waste
their time interacting with me the way they do. So all
this talk about posturing is just Surajit trying to make
the best deal out of a thread in which many rusty nails
have been unceremoniously shoved up his ass. I have no
ability at all at swar cognition; so for a song which
uses Jogkauns notes without using its standard
signatures, it is not surprising that I stopped at
telling myself that it was in 'Chandrakauns - Jogkauns -
Kaushik Ranjani territory'. But Surajit's posturing that
'nis din barasat' is definitely Jogkauns, in which he
persisted even after I posted expert feedback, has now
been shown to be hollow.
But why let accusations be a one-way game? Let us see how
Surajit comes out of his attempts to prove his expertise.
First of all, he made some noise after I called Vish
Krishnan and Ajay experts. Surajit probably wants to be
called an expert himself which he plainly isn't. Later he
hastily accepted that Vish is an expert but shifted the
goalposts by saying that I needed Rajan's imprimatur for
calling Vish an expert. When even that charge was shown
to be bogus there was further shifting of goalposts and
my posts were supposed to amount to posturing. Alas, he
forgot that at least part of my argument about Ramrang
clip was supported by Ajay on rmic recently. So even that
accusation against me can be safely dismissed.
Then Surajit set out to prove his expertise. I at least
know that I cannot make out which raag is used by
Hridaynath for 'nis din barasat' and in which manner. So
I asked experts. But Surajit decries that habit. I am
afraid that habit will continue. That way I at least know
about the raag attributions for those songs which are
tough for me to track. In fact, I posted only that
excerpt from Vish's email which concurred with Surajit's
claim that the song was based on Jogkauns and Vish's
stronger reservations were not quoted. Nowhere did Vish
say that it was definitely or unambiguously Jogkauns. But
even after the expert opinion was posted on forum,
Surajit continued to insist that the song was definitely
Jogkauns. (Please note the word 'definitely', used by our
non-expert.) That claim has been dismissed by Ajay.
Surajit also added : "sadaa rahat" is definitely "sa Ga
ma ga sa" (shudhha madhyam).
Again note the word 'definitely'. And yet again, he was
wrong. The wannabe-expert Surajit doesn't even have
decent swar cognition. Ajay has even dismissed the
possibility of a different shadaj supporting Surajit's
case. I and most others who contribute to rmim and even
rmic have no swar cognition. That does not mean a public
forum can be fooled about the notes in a song. Who will
believe Surajit now onwards when he quotes any sargam in
support of his arguments? We will look to the experts.
And that habit will further irritate Surajit. Ha!
And the meend for which Surajit says "the Jog signature
is unmistakable" is not Jog signature AT ALL, as the real
expert Ajay has stated. In other words, another rusty
nail has been shoved up Surajit's ass by the august and
expert hands of Ajay. It is to be hoped that the nail
described a meend on the sphincter as it went in and that
it was a canonical Jog meend. It is also to be hoped that
the next time Jog is played in Surajit's presence, it
will bite him in the ass and the ass will do the
signature recognition since his ears cannot help him make
out the standard Jog meend.
And all this is about just one song. More such instances
of Surajit's 'expertise' can be seen in rmim/c archives.
His exposure to ICM is not as wide as he would have us
believe, either. He had made some observations about Raag
Saagar when I quoted that raag's name in one post on
Mushtaq Hussain Khan. His comment was shown to be
completely wrong, first by one lurker who told me over
email that he had a recording in raag Saagar by
Vinayakrao Patwardhan which disproved Surajit's comment
and then other posters (including myself) happened to
have heard renditions of that raag which did not conform
with Surajit's 'expert' intervention. It is not known
from which source he has picked up his arsenal of wrong
information.
But he was still left with one route which losers
generally take. He accused me of believing that I am
always right when in fact I unashamedly do 'the silly
thing' and seek expert opinion when in doubt. And he
prayed : 'May God be with you.' The more urgent prayer
needed is : 'May the devil which has scrambled Surajit's
brain, prompting him to make definitive pronouncements
about raagas (example - Jogkauns) when he lacks the
requisite expertise, stop harrassing him and go
elsewhere, taking out a few rusty nails in the process
of quitting.'
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
nan...@hotmail.com (naniwadekar) wrote:
> Surajit also added : "sadaa rahat" is definitely "sa Ga
> ma ga sa" (shudhha madhyam).
I'll concede one point to Nani: I was wrong about that. For everything
else, RMIMers are free to make up their own minds, or to accept Nani's
judgment, whichever they find a saner course!
-s
Nipun Shah
> In article <43e4018a.02092...@posting.google.com>,
> suma...@ee.iitb.ac.in (Sumantra Dutta Roy) wrote:
>
> > > By the way, one of Hridaynath's earliest (probably the very first)
> > > tunes is 'nis din barasat nain hamaare'. I remember a friend
> > > telling me that it is in Kaushik Ranjani.
>
> > song, beautifully sung by Lata Mangeshkar, as being in Jog Kauns. It
> > sounded as if it had elements from both Jog, as well as the `-Kauns'
> > series. Well, for all we know, it might be a case of two names for the
> > same raga, a la Nand Kalyan and Anandi.
>
> not in Kaushik Ranjani, but in Jog Kauns.
>
Hi friends,
I have heard the same song "Nisa Dina Barasata Nain Hamaare, Sadaa
Rahata Pavas Ritu Ham Par, Jab Se Shyam Sidhare" sung by Lakshmi
Shankar in Raga Megh. A haunting melody. But have never heard
Hridaynath's composition. Could you tell me what movie was it from ?
Does anyone have an MP3 file of the Hridaynath version of the song ?
Also, in the same thread below, Ek Tanhaa has posted a link to his
briefcase for a version of the same song sung by Lata in 1957. It
seems the song is no more in his briefcase, so couldn't listen to this
one too. Is this the same composition of Hridaynath that we are
talking about here ? Again, what movie is this from ?
Thanks and regards
- Nipun
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> And the meend for which Surajit says "the Jog signature
> is unmistakable" is not Jog signature AT ALL, as the real
> expert Ajay has stated.
The Nani-Surajit battle aside, I think that "signature Jog" or
"definitely *not* signature Jog" is too distinct an observation to be
given for such a brief window of the song (if I understand correctly,
"paavas ritu *Ham~~~* pe"). I vote that both cases for that particular
(one-word) passage be dismissed on grounds of insufficient
information.
Sanjeev
Afzal A. Khan
Well, I cannot intrude upon such scholarly discussions.
But I didn't quite follow what is stated above. I think
the two cases vying with each other (and that too depending
on a one-word passage) are :
(a) It constitutes a "signature" for Jog.
(b) It is NOT a "signature" for Jog.
Now one of them HAS to be correct, no ?
Afzal
Surajit A. Bose
"Afzal A. Khan" <il_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, I cannot intrude upon such scholarly discussions.
> But I didn't quite follow what is stated above. I think
> the two cases vying with each other (and that too depending
> on a one-word passage) are :
>
> (a) It constitutes a "signature" for Jog.
> (b) It is NOT a "signature" for Jog.
>
> Now one of them HAS to be correct, no ?
Of course. And you can either believe Nani or me! I'll pit my
credibility against the deluded ravings of that contemptible excuse for
a human being any day.
(He still thinks "Raag Sagar" refers to a raag, as opposed to a
genre--hahahaha)
-s
urzung khan
Posting just as a piece of info and with no intention
whatsoever of entering the discussion.
Columbia record # GE 2914
Singer:Fakhr-i-Mausiqi, Ostad mushtaq Hussain Khan (Rampur)
Side one:Aaj More aaii gaa, khayal Maalkauns
Side two:bahaar aaii, raag Saagar
Singer's name on the record is in English and spelled as above.
The bols and names of rags are in Urdu script.
Urzung Khan
Surajit A. Bose
urzung khan <urz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Posting just as a piece of info and with no intention
> whatsoever of entering the discussion.
>
>
> Columbia record # GE 2914
> Singer:Fakhr-i-Mausiqi, Ostad mushtaq Hussain Khan (Rampur)
> Side one:Aaj More aaii gaa, khayal Maalkauns
> Side two:bahaar aaii, raag Saagar
again: all it means is that the song "bahaar aaii" is a raag saagar.
That's like saying "nis din barasat nain hamaare" is a bhajan or
"baajuband khulii khulii jaae" is a Thumri. It does not refer to a
specifc raag.
-s
naniwadekar
"Afzal A. Khan" <il_...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
>
> Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
> >
> > nan...@hotmail.com (naniwadekar) wrote -
> >
> > > And the meend for which Surajit says "the Jog signature
> > > is unmistakable" is not Jog signature AT ALL, as the real
> > > expert Ajay has stated.
> >
> > The Nani-Surajit battle aside, I think that "signature Jog" or
> > "definitely *not* signature Jog" is too distinct an observation to be
> > given for such a brief window of the song (if I understand correctly,
> > "paavas ritu *Ham~~~* pe"). I vote that both cases for that particular
> > (one-word) passage be dismissed on grounds of insufficient
> > information.
> >
> > Sanjeev
>
>
> Well, I cannot intrude upon such scholarly discussions.
> But I didn't quite follow what is stated above. I think
> the two cases vying with each other (and that too depending
> on a one-word passage) are :
>
> (a) It constitutes a "signature" for Jog.
> (b) It is NOT a "signature" for Jog.
>
> Now one of them HAS to be correct, no ?
>
Let me just summarize what the two (real) experts (Ajay Nerurkar
and Sanjeev Rambhadran) have stated.
According to Ajay, the meend is not a signature for
Jog at all.
According to Sanjeev, the window is too brief for such a distinct
observation. (paavas ritu ha~~m~ pe).
IMHO, the meend on 'ha~~m~ pe' is not the same as the signature
Jog meend pointed out by Ajay : the one on 'laa' in the Marathi song,
'saasuraas CHaalalii ... shankunta**laa**'. I would also point out to
Sanjeev that there is a very brief but distinct Hameer phrase in Lata's
'rooth ke tum to chal di_e', to give just one example. So brief window
and distinct phrase can certainly co-exist. Vish has talked about this
phenomenon at some length in the Anil Biswas Commemorative.
Or take the example of AaDambarii-kedaar in which a brief but
distinct Shankara phrase is dropped in an otherwise pure-kedaar
bandish. I do grant though that Sanjeev probably didn't mean to
make any very general comment along 'brief vs distinct' line.
"urzung khan" <urz...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> Posting just as a piece of info and with no intention
> whatsoever of entering the discussion.
>
>
> Columbia record # GE 2914
> Singer:Fakhr-i-Mausiqi, Ostad mushtaq Hussain Khan (Rampur)
> Side one:Aaj More aaii gaa, khayal Maalkauns
> Side two:bahaar aaii, raag Saagar
>
Some performers (Vinayakrao Patwardhan, Mushtaq Hussain Khan,
V G Jog, et al) present raag-maalaa under the name Raag Saagar.
According to expert-wannabe Surajit Bose's post, dated 16 July
2002 : "A "raag saagar" is a composition that uses and names the
six principal raagas of the raag raagini system in turn." This is not
correct. The performers named above have used any raagas that
took their fancy as constituents of Raag Saagar. MHK was
probably especially fond of this 'raag'. Please check the relevant
thread for correct information. I will just quote two passages
from that thread.
1. I had received the following info from an rmic lurker.
"
AFAIK 'saagar' has no set definition and the numerical limit is by no
means set at six . raagmala is a relatively recent variation of
saagar.
bundu khan's saagar has definitely more than six raags in it .
Most famous claim about saagar is made by older rasikas ( including
ghulam taqi khan to yours truly) is that Mushtaq Hussain included more
than forty raags in a memorable mehfil in Bombay where all the stalwarts of
music incl. Faiyyaz Khan etc. had gathered!
I have another saagar with more than six raags by vinayakrao patwardhan.
"
2. From Abhik Majumdar's post :
"As regards Raga-Sagar, I have *a* recording by Pt. Vinayakrao
Patwardhan (don't know whether it's the same as the one you're
referring to, Nani), where he prefaces his performance with a lengthy
explanation of what a Raga-Sagar is. According to him, a bandish of
this sort entails direct or indirect references to ragas woven into
the text. The catch is that the performer has to sing each segment of
the text in the raga it refers to, and switch ragas hte moment he
moves to the next segment. The composition that Panditji sings
compruses of references to eight ragas. The Sthayi goes "Yeh Man Hai
'Meer Chhaya Pade Shyam ki", referring respectively to Yaman, Hameer,
Chhayanat and Shyam Kalyan. And the idea is that Yeh Man has to be
sung in Yaman, and Hai'Meer in Hameer, and so on."
Please ignore all talk by any expert-wannabe about 'raag saagar' being
linked to the six main raagas of the raag-raagiNii system.
- dn
Nipun Shah
>
> again: all it means is that the song "bahaar aaii" is a raag saagar.
> That's like saying "nis din barasat nain hamaare" is a bhajan or
> "baajuband khulii khulii jaae" is a Thumri. It does not refer to a
> specifc raag.
>
> -s
Hello, I posted my question in the other "Least Used Ragas...."
thread, but it didn't generate a response. Hence I'm posting it here
again, since the subject of my question "Nisadin Barasat Nain Hamaare"
has been mentioned here again. Thanks for reading.
My question is, in what film or non-film album did Lata sing this
SurdasBhajan tuned by Hridaynath ? Also, in the other thread, Ek
Tanhaa gave a link to a 1957 version of the song by Lata. Is it the
same one that you're talking about ? (That link has expired hence
couldn't listen to it). Also, I've heard the same Bhajan in the voice
of Lakshmi Shankar, tuned beautifully to Raga Megh. Do you know of any
other recordings of the same Bhajan ? I tried a net search, but
nothing came out about the details of the Hridaynath-Lata version.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and Regards
Nipun
Afzal A. Khan
First of all, I am not sure whether it would be proper to
delete or snip any of the quotes in the above post.
Now, for an absolute non-expert par excellence like
Yours Truly, let me try to summarize a few of the
issues here :
1. Ajay Nerurkar and Sanjeev Ramabhadran are experts.
2. Accdg. to Ajay, the "meeNd" in the song in question
does not constitute a "signature" for Jog.
3. Accdg. to Sanjeev, the one-word passage is too brief
a window to qualify as a "signature".
4. You are of the view that a "brief window" and a
"distinct phrase" can certainly co-exist.
5. So, here, you seem to differ from the expert
Sanjeev.
6. Sanjeev is certainly right as to the window being
very brief.
7. But, is Surajit Bose right when he says that,
despite the "briefness" of the window, the distinct
phrase of Jog can be discerned here ?
8. When you say "dropped" for the Shankara phrase,
you actually mean "included" (though very briefly),
right ?
9. Raag-maala is a comparatively recent variation of the
earlier term "Raag Saagar".
10. "Raag Saagar" is not in itself a separate Raag.
But isn't that what Surajit Bose had said all along ?
11. There is no set limit to the number of raags that
are usually included in a "Raag Saagar" recital.
12. Ustaad Mushtaque Husain Khan belonged to an earlier
generation. But how many Raagas he did include in the
recital on that record ? Since those were the days of
78 rpm records, I doubt whether the actual number
exceeded six.
12. Is it usual for performers to include a much larger
number of Raagas in a "Saagar" or "Maala" recital
these days ?
I hope to be excused if I have understood any of the
different averments/arguments wrongly. But, a few
clarifications would be most welcome.
Afzal
naniwadekar
"Nipun Shah" <nipu...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> Hello, I posted my question in the other "Least Used Ragas...."
> thread, but it didn't generate a response. Hence I'm posting it here
> again, since the subject of my question "Nisadin Barasat Nain Hamaare"
> has been mentioned here again. Thanks for reading.
>
> My question is, in what film or non-film album did Lata sing this
> SurdasBhajan tuned by Hridaynath ? Also, in the other thread, Ek
> Tanhaa gave a link to a 1957 version of the song by Lata. Is it the
> same one that you're talking about ? (That link has expired hence
> couldn't listen to it). Also, I've heard the same Bhajan in the voice
> of Lakshmi Shankar, tuned beautifully to Raga Megh. Do you know of any
> other recordings of the same Bhajan ? I tried a net search, but
> nothing came out about the details of the Hridaynath-Lata version.
>
Four non-film songs by Lata were released on 45 rpm record.
I don't know when this record was released. Nor do I know
whether the four songs were ever released on 78 rpm records.
Kalra-ji should be able to help about the 78 rpm bit. A friend
had bought the 45 rpm record in the late 1970s, IIRC.
I am told Hridaynath claims 'nis din barasat' to be among his
earliest compositions. Somehow, I have carried the impression
that the four songs were recorded in 1955-1960 time span. In
case they were released on 78 rpm records, the year of the
release can be ascertained from the record number.
The four songs on the record are :
Side one.
1. barase bundiyaan saawan ki. MD - Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
2. nis din barasat nain hamaare. MD - HM.
Side Two.
1. mai.nyaa mori mai.n nahi maakhan khaayo.
MD - Vasant Prabhu.
2. mat jaa jogi. MD - HM.
Is Laxmi Shankar's rendition of 'nis din barasat' available?
- dn
naniwadekar
>
> 2. Accdg. to Ajay, the "meeNd" in the song in question
> does not constitute a "signature" for Jog.
>
> 3. Accdg. to Sanjeev, the one-word passage is too brief
> a window to qualify as a "signature".
>
> 4. You are of the view that a "brief window" and a
> "distinct phrase" can certainly co-exist.
>
> 5. So, here, you seem to differ from the expert
> Sanjeev.
>
I don't know whether Sanjeev wanted to make a general
statement that a 'brief window' and 'distinct phrase' can't
co-exist. I don't think he wanted to say that. But if he did,
I disagree with the expert. He certainly did argue that in
this specific case, the two things don't co-exist. I am not
competent enough to comment on that.
>
> 7. But, is Surajit Bose right when he says that,
> despite the "briefness" of the window, the distinct
> phrase of Jog can be discerned here ?
>
Surajit Bose had talked about a distinct phrase of Jog
in 'sadaa rahat paawas' bit. He has withdrawn that claim.
Ajay says a komal gandhaar to shadja meend exists in
'ritu ha~~m~ pe'. But it is different from the ga->Sa
meend which signals Jog. Yet again, I am not competent
to comment on that. But I do agree with him that it is
not the same as the meend on 'laa' in 'shakuntaLAA'
in the Marathi song sung by Sudhir Phadke. According
to Ajay, the meend on 'laa' is the canonical Jog / Jogkauns
meend.
Sanjeev says there is insufficient evidence to decide whether
the meend 'ha~~m ~pe' is canonical Jog or not.
> 8. When you say "dropped" for the Shankara phrase,
> you actually mean "included" (though very briefly),
> right ?
>
Your post is sounding terribly Sudhir Kakkar-ish by now.
Yes, I did mean 'included' when I said 'dropped'. Rajan has
posted a clip in Adambari Kedar.
>
> 10. "Raag Saagar" is not in itself a separate Raag.
> But isn't that what Surajit Bose had said all along ?
>
He is correct about that. But he is wrong that the Raag Saagar
refers to a raag-mala of the 6 raagas which are the principle
raagas in the raag-raagini system. The six raagas are :
Bhairav, Malkauns, Hindol, Shree, Deepak and Megh.
There is one Hindi Film raag-mala which uses these 6 raagas.
http://homepage.mac.com/itrans/ASCII/2444.isb
>
> 12. Is it usual for performers to include a much larger
> number of Raagas in a "Saagar" or "Maala" recital
> these days ?
>
I had heard a Raag-mala by Vilayat Khan in a concert in Dec 1981
in which he played at least 10 raagas while I was half-awake and
falling asleep for 10 seconds after every 15-second's listen. He must
have played at least a few more raagas while I dozed.
Last year, Manilal Nag and his
daughter (Mita Nag) played a raag-mala in a concert in California.
(They were presenting a sitar jugalbandi concert.)
IIRC they covered 8-10 raagas. But 40 is a rather high number of
raagas to have been covered in a raag-saagar or raag-mala. This
particular piece must have been sung by Mushtaq Hussain Khan
Sahab sometime between 1941-1960. I think Faiyaz Khan died
in 1960, so it can be no later than that. But the number 40 is
sufficiently rare for people to be talking about it even today.
Malini Rajurkar has released a beautiful raag-mala, of about
7 minutes' duration. It is 14-15 years since I heard it last. Among
the raagas it covers are the following :
"DURGA" maataa dayaanii devii
"Jay-jay-van(t/d)i"ni "Bhoopali" gaao
Jis "DES" mein "SARASWATI" devi.
"Madhu"mukh "Sohini" (Madhu probably refers to
Madhuvanti or Madhukauns. Or maybe Madhu refers
to no raag at all. The whole line may be in Sohini.
"SUHA"we etc etc
"Lalit"aa maataa ... "Darbar(i)" ko "Basant Bahar"
"Bageshwari" devi.
Rajan had posted one raag-mala by Ramrang, complete
with real-audio clip and the text on rmic or sawf.
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sanjeev says there is insufficient evidence to decide whether
> the meend 'ha~~m ~pe' is canonical Jog or not.
Yeah, whatever. What about Vish, who said that the song as a whole was
within the parameters of Jog Kauns? So you'll ignore what he says, just
because I say the same thing? How marvelous!
> > 10. "Raag Saagar" is not in itself a separate Raag.
> > But isn't that what Surajit Bose had said all along ?
> >
> He is correct about that. But he is wrong that the Raag Saagar
> refers to a raag-mala of the 6 raagas which are the principle
> raagas in the raag-raagini system. The six raagas are :
> Bhairav, Malkauns, Hindol, Shree, Deepak and Megh.
> There is one Hindi Film raag-mala which uses these 6 raagas.
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/itrans/ASCII/2444.isb
I'm wrong? Hah. I can quote a published PhD dissertation (from the
music dept of an Indian university) on the history of the dhrupad that
defines Raag Sagar in precisely the way I defined it. I can also furnish
notated, non-film examples of the genre that go back to Miyan Tansen. In
the strictest sense, a raag saagar is exactly what I said it was. If the
phrase has been extended to cover any raag mala that names the raags
being sung (even if those raags aren't the six parent raags of the raag
raagini system), fine; but it is an extension of the definition, not the
original definition. And that extension is by no means uncontested.
And a few posts back, in a long screed that involved a pathological
display of twisted logic and warped evidence, you were claiming (among
other things) that Raag Sagar is a raag, and you have knowledge of
recordings in that raag!
You foolish, spiteful, deluded man! You even went so far as to
cross-post that screed to RMIC! Do you really think such brazen displays
of shameless ignorance, wilful misrepresentation, selective evidence,
and twisted logic will destroy whatever credibility I may have with
folks who've been reading RMIC and RMIM for years? Haven't plenty of
folks on RMIC mocked your pretentions several times already? You keep
saying you don't need a certificate from me; why do you think I need one
from you? What does anybody on RMIM or RMIC care whether you certify me
as an expert or not?
And anyway, this whole "Surajit claims to be an expert" thing is
hogwash. I have never made any such claim, nor have I ever disputed that
Vish and Sanjeev know more than I do. I do not know Dr Nerurkar, but I'm
perfectly willing to believe he knows more than I do too. What I'm
saying is this: I'm not as bare-nekkid butt-ignorant as you are, 'sall.
-s
naniwadekar
> > the meend 'ha~~m ~pe' is canonical Jog or not.
>
> Yeah, whatever. What about Vish, who said that the song as a whole was
> within the parameters of Jog Kauns? So you'll ignore what he says, just
> because I say the same thing? How marvelous!
>
This is what Vish had said and I had quoted :
"The Lata song in question hits all the jogkauns notes, but
is missing the necessary conditions."
I take that to mean that, according to him, there is no
canonical Jogkauns meend in the song. The quoted excerpt
even stated Vish's opinion that the canonical meend is not
quite there. He then added that the song (still) falls within
legit boundaries of Jogkauns from a light music standpoint,
and I had quoted that part as well (far from ignoring it).
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> quite there. He then added that the song (still) falls within
> legit boundaries of Jogkauns from a light music standpoint,
> and I had quoted that part as well (far from ignoring it).
Yeah, and then conveniently forgot about that part when you were beating
ME up for saying that the song's legit-ly in Jog Kauns. You stupid man...
-s
naniwadekar
>
> > quite there. He then added that the song (still) falls within
> > legit boundaries of Jogkauns from a light music standpoint,
> > and I had quoted that part as well (far from ignoring it).
>
> Yeah, and then conveniently forgot about that part when you were beating
> ME up for saying that the song's legit-ly in Jog Kauns. You stupid man...
>
Don't be an ass, Surajit. I forgot nothing.
Hopefully for the last time ...
Your response to Vish and Ajay's feedback was :
> 1. while the movement from komal gandhaar to shadaj is not as
elaborate as one might wish in a canonical Jog, the Jog signature is
unmistakable.
>-------------------------
No expert has agreed with you that the Jog signature is unmistakable
anywhere in the song.
In the passage quoted by you, there is no movement from komal
gandhar to shadja anyway.
> 2. The song is definitely Jog-kauns. Unambiguously enough for
> a film song, anyway, as Sir Vish says
>
No. It may suit you to interpret Vish's feedback in that manner.
But that won't do.
It is legit-ly Jogkauns. One expert had suggested that there
might have been (or even could be, unbeknownst to him) a closer
raag than Jogkauns to 'nis din barasat'. Vish was in the loop. He
agreed with the sentiment. I did not bother to quote that opinion
because as the case had been presented to me by the experts,
I think it is okay to consider it legit-ly Jogkauns for a light song.
In short, it is not 'definitely Jogkauns' even for a light song.
Ajay has already posted his reservations on the forum, in
addition to his email recently quoted by me on the forum.
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
In article <ao8e5g$jpa0e$1...@ID-75735.news.dfncis.de>,
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In the passage quoted by you, there is no movement from komal
> gandhar to shadja anyway.
Why are you flogging this dead horse? I've already said I was mistaken;
unlike you, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong.
> > 2. The song is definitely Jog-kauns. Unambiguously enough for
> > a film song, anyway, as Sir Vish says
> >
> No. It may suit you to interpret Vish's feedback in that manner.
> But that won't do. It is legit-ly Jogkauns.
So now you're manufacturing a difference between "legitly" and
"unambiguously enough for a film song"? And you claim I'M
misinterpreting matters to suit myself! You gibbering idiot.
> One expert had suggested that there
> might have been (or even could be, unbeknownst to him) a closer
> raag than Jogkauns to 'nis din barasat'. Vish was in the loop. He
> agreed with the sentiment.
A hypothetical raag from an unnamed expert now. You get sillier and
sillier. You remind me of P L Deshpande's parody of a music review:
"Shashikala Soshankar sang Maluha Kedar at a recital yesterday. She had
announced that she was singing some other raag. So when I told her that
she had sung Maluha Kedar, she was very surprised." Given your subnormal
intelligence, I'm sure you fail to see the relevance.
> I think it is okay to consider it legit-ly Jogkauns for a light song.
You think anybody cares what your opinion is? You delusional louse.
> In short, it is not 'definitely Jogkauns' even for a light song.
> Ajay has already posted his reservations on the forum, in
> addition to his email recently quoted by me on the forum.
Whatever. Vish says it can be considered Jog-Kauns, I too say it is
perfectly fine to call it Jog-kauns, if Ajay says it's not fine, I
disagree with Ajay and I'm sure he has no problem with it.
Let's do a little recap, shall we, Nani? You proferred (via a friend who
hangs out with "experts") Kaushik Ranjini; Sumantra said Jog Kauns; I
agreed with Sumantra and said you were wrong; you went over the edge.
Now you're trying to say, "As per expert opinion, it is Jog Kauns. But
all these experts say it's not EXACTLY the way Jog Kauns would sound in
a classical context, so Surajit is wrong!" Excuse me? You blithering
moron, I never said it was canonical Jog Kauns. I just said it was Jog
Kauns. And all your tying yourself up into knots isn't going to show to
anybody's satisfaction that I was wrong, and it's emphatically not going
to show that you were right.
Your desperate need to prove me wrong is pathological. You are a futile,
pathetic, whinging, loathsome, contemptible little beast, wallowing in
your own ignorance, trying hard to pretend that you have access to
musical insight, or are "in the loop" with musical experts. You are
utterly shameless in the way you're using their generosity with their
knowledge as a pawn in a futile battle to salve your own ego.
Oh and btw: you think people haven't noticed that you've conveniently
dropped the "Raag Sagar" portion of your argument?
-s
Nipun Shah
>
> Four non-film songs by Lata were released on 45 rpm record.
> I don't know when this record was released. Nor do I know
> whether the four songs were ever released on 78 rpm records.
> Kalra-ji should be able to help about the 78 rpm bit. A friend
> had bought the 45 rpm record in the late 1970s, IIRC.
>
> I am told Hridaynath claims 'nis din barasat' to be among his
> earliest compositions. Somehow, I have carried the impression
> that the four songs were recorded in 1955-1960 time span. In
> case they were released on 78 rpm records, the year of the
> release can be ascertained from the record number.
>
> The four songs on the record are :
> Side one.
> 1. barase bundiyaan saawan ki. MD - Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
> 2. nis din barasat nain hamaare. MD - HM.
>
> Side Two.
> 1. mai.nyaa mori mai.n nahi maakhan khaayo.
> MD - Vasant Prabhu.
> 2. mat jaa jogi. MD - HM.
>
Thanks a lot for the above details. Have these songs ever been issued
in a compiled Cassette or CD ?
>
>
> Is Laxmi Shankar's rendition of 'nis din barasat' available?
Yes, its available on a CD titled "Les Heures et les Saison" issued on
the Ocora (French) label, released in 2001. The track is titled
"Bhajan De Surdas". This CD is available at Amazon.com and probably
other eStores too.
Regards,
Nipun
Surajit A. Bose
nipu...@hotmail.com (Nipun Shah) wrote:
> > The four songs on the record are :
> > Side one.
> > 1. barase bundiyaan saawan ki. MD - Hridaynath Mangeshkar.
> > 2. nis din barasat nain hamaare. MD - HM.
> >
> > Side Two.
> > 1. mai.nyaa mori mai.n nahi maakhan khaayo.
> > MD - Vasant Prabhu.
> > 2. mat jaa jogi. MD - HM.
> >
>
> Thanks a lot for the above details. Have these songs ever been issued
> in a compiled Cassette or CD ?
Yes, on an HMV CD called "Non Film Treasures: Lata Mangeshkar". Has some
lovely songs, including four by K Mahavir. My favorite from the CD is
probably "har ek baat pe kahate ho tum ke tuu kyaa hai".
-s
Afzal A. Khan
Isn't that what Surajit and Nani have been telling each
other throughout this thread ? !!
Afzal
Surajit A. Bose
"Afzal A. Khan" <il_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Yes, on an HMV CD called "Non Film Treasures: Lata Mangeshkar". Has some
> > lovely songs, including four by K Mahavir. My favorite from the CD is
> > probably "har ek baat pe kahate ho tum ke tuu kyaa hai".
> >
> > -s
>
>
> Isn't that what Surajit and Nani have been telling each
> other throughout this thread ? !!
LOL! Very witty, Afzal-bhai!
-s
Afzal A. Khan
I hope both of you will spare a thought for the
reaction of other RMIMers :
Tum_hi kaho ke yeh aNdaaz-e-guftgoo kya hai ?
Afzal
Surajit A. Bose
Again, very witty (though predictable). But hey, when I get attacked by
a rabid rat, I'm justified in trampling on him. 8-)
-s
naniwadekar
> > might have been (or even could be, unbeknownst to him) a closer
> > raag than Jogkauns to 'nis din barasat'. Vish was in the loop. He
> > agreed with the sentiment.
>
> A hypothetical raag from an unnamed expert now.
>
You are conveniently ignoring that Vish agreed with that sentiment.
When Vish did so, I assigned that statement corresponding weightage.
You produced a phrase to argue the Jogkauns case. That ga->Sa
meend claim has been retracted by you. Well, the song is legit-ly in
Jogkauns in the absence of the hypothetical raag being known to
the unnamed expert and Vish (that one expert is unnamed should
not matter). But it is because Vish said so, not because what you
said on the basis of a claim you had to later retract.
You remind me of a boy who said 5+4-3 = 6. Asked how he solved
the problem, he said 5+4=11 and 11-3 = 6. Indeed.
And when Afzal sahib asked whether Ajay's statement was correct
or Sanjeev's, you declared you were ready to pit your credibility
(over something you didn't say) against mine (over something I
didn't say). By then, you had ceased to be even amusing.
Re. Raag Saagar, it is not known who contests Bundu Khan and
Vinayakrao Patwardhan's 'expansion of the original definition'
(assuming you are correct about that). The definition was extended
long ago, this time by (alas) known experts. If you didn't know that
or don't accept that extension, I am not going to bother to argue
about it. Any statement about Raag Saagar has to take into account
how big performers have been treating it over the last 50-60 years.
- dn
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You produced a phrase to argue the Jogkauns case. That ga->Sa
> meend claim has been retracted by you. Well, the song is legit-ly in
> Jogkauns in the absence of the hypothetical raag being known to
> the unnamed expert and Vish (that one expert is unnamed should
> not matter). But it is because Vish said so, not because what you
> said on the basis of a claim you had to later retract.
Wrong. The song is in Jog Kauns because of the notes it uses, and
because of the way raaga ascriptions to film songs work. Not because of
anything Vish said or I said or your unnamed expert said.
You moron, you just don't get it, do you? The evidence isn't about who
said what. The evidence is the song. The only reason you keep dragging
in your pet experts is that you have no skill to weigh the evidence of
the song itself. That's what I said all along....and you've just proved
it by saying that the song is legitly in Jog Kauns "because Vish said
so". For you, that's the only way to know! Tiresome, ignorant fool.
And for you that's also the only stake! Who has authority to decide what
raag a song is in! If I say it's in Jog Kauns, it's suspect; if Vish
says so, it's fine. Whether or not the song is in Jog Kauns doesn't
depend on who's making the claim, you stupid nitwit.
> And when Afzal sahib asked whether Ajay's statement was correct
> or Sanjeev's, you declared you were ready to pit your credibility
> (over something you didn't say) against mine (over something I
> didn't say). By then, you had ceased to be even amusing.
To any sane person, the meaning of what I said was perfectly clear.
> Re. Raag Saagar, it is not known who contests Bundu Khan and
> Vinayakrao Patwardhan's 'expansion of the original definition'
> (assuming you are correct about that). The definition was extended
> long ago, this time by (alas) known experts. If you didn't know that
> or don't accept that extension, I am not going to bother to argue
> about it. Any statement about Raag Saagar has to take into account
> how big performers have been treating it over the last 50-60 years.
Yeah? Conveniently forgetting that you said Raag Sagar was a raag,
aren't you? You're trying the same rhetorical strategy again: when
unable to actually combat evidence I have, or defend misstatements you
made, you try to cast the whole thing as a battle between me on the one
hand and your experts on the other. All smoke and mirrors.
If "big performers ... over the last 50-60 years" unanimously claim that
Raag Sagar is any composition built up with many raags that names the
raags as it deploys them--explain why Ramrang and Rajan call "E mana
kalyaN hove tero" a raag mala rather than a raag sagar. Are you gonna
claim that Ramrang or Rajan doesn't know the technical term raag sagar?
Give up, you idiot; I can keep this up for as long as you can, and I
have the advantage of being right.
-s
naniwadekar
> because of the way raaga ascriptions to film songs work. Not because of
> anything Vish said or I said or your unnamed expert said.
>
The song tells me it is somewhere in the Chandrakauns - Jogkauns
territory. It evokes neither raag very strongly for me. The canonical
Jogkauns signature is absent. At this point, I take recourse to
asking the experts. If Vish says it is legit-ly Jogkauns, I defer to
him. There is nothing wrong in doing that. Indeed, that you also
call it Jogkauns (based on wrong swar-cognition) doesn't stop me
from accepting that it is Jogkauns. If Vish says so, it is fine with me
because he made a case which seemed quite convincing to me and
because of his reliable track record.
So far from lacking the skill to know that it is Jogkauns, I had
(correctly) guessed that it did not have Jogkauns signature. That is
one reason why I believed it when I was told it was Kaushik Ranjani.
> Whether or not the song is in Jog Kauns doesn't
> depend on who's making the claim, you stupid nitwit.
>
For a change, you are correct. The song *is* Jogkauns-ish despite
the claim by a moron like you that it is in Jogkauns.
>
> Yeah? Conveniently forgetting that you said Raag Sagar was a raag,
> aren't you?
>
I was told that Mushtaq Hussain Khan Sahab had released a 78 rpm
with Raag Malkauns and Raag Saagar on it. This was about 2-3 months
ago. My only brush with Raag Saagar was through V G Jog's rendition
of it. (By that, I mean through V G Jog's raag-mala.) When I started
the thread on MHK, it became clear to me that Raag Saagar is a term
used for raag-mala by many performers. I have not made any statement
since that point which cannot accommodate the interpretation that Raag
Saagar is a name for raag-mala. My original quote : 'his 78 rpm recording
in raag Saagar was released long ago' (as told me by a friend) can also
allow for the possibility that 'Raag Saagar' is a Raag Mala. I do not feel
in any way that my friend had misinformed or misled me.
>
> If "big performers ... over the last 50-60 years" unanimously claim that
> Raag Sagar is any composition built up with many raags that names the
> raags as it deploys them -- ...
>
I don't know where that 'unanimously' bit has come from.
And so I leave you free to rave more ...
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
naniwadekar wrote:
>
> "Surajit A. Bose" <psur...@netscape.net> wrote -
> >
> > Wrong. The song is in Jog Kauns because of the notes it uses, and
> > because of the way raaga ascriptions to film songs work. Not because of
> > anything Vish said or I said or your unnamed expert said.
> > ... The evidence is the song.
> >
> The song tells me it is somewhere in the Chandrakauns - Jogkauns
> territory. It evokes neither raag very strongly for me. The canonical
> Jogkauns signature is absent. At this point, I take recourse to
> asking the experts. If Vish says it is legit-ly Jogkauns, I defer to
> him. There is nothing wrong in doing that. Indeed, that you also
> call it Jogkauns (based on wrong swar-cognition) doesn't stop me
> from accepting that it is Jogkauns. If Vish says so, it is fine with me
> because he made a case which seemed quite convincing to me and
> because of his reliable track record.
>
> So far from lacking the skill to know that it is Jogkauns, I had
> (correctly) guessed that it did not have Jogkauns signature. That is
> one reason why I believed it when I was told it was Kaushik Ranjani.
>
> > Whether or not the song is in Jog Kauns doesn't
> > depend on who's making the claim, you stupid nitwit.
> >
> For a change, you are correct. The song *is* Jogkauns-ish despite
> the claim by a moron like you that it is in Jogkauns.
> - dn
Mr. Vish Krishnan's name keeps on making an
appearance throughout this thread, but he himself
has not participated directly, providing us with his
insight.
As a novice, I would say that the discussion is
about a film song. And some of these are usually
"based on" classical raagas. It may not be proper
to equate them with "canonical" exposition of a raaga,
as would be rendered by a known classical singer in
a concert or in a recording. I feel when Surajit
talks about the song being in Jogkauns and when Nani
says that it is "Jogkauns-ish", they are essentially
saying the same thing. And this is probably what the
the two acknowledged experts (Vish and Sanjeev)
meant when they in effect said something like :
"Well...ummm....it is Jogkauns....But perhaps
not quite Jogkauns....."
I hope these stalwarts (whom I respect a great deal)
won't mind the meaning I have assigned to their
learned opinions.
And, finally, can we go back to the original question
posed by me when I began this thread ? Are we agreed
that Raaga Deepak is in fact the least used Raaga in
film songs ?
Afzal
naniwadekar
> about a film song. And some of these are usually
> "based on" classical raagas. It may not be proper
> to equate them with "canonical" exposition of a raaga,
> as would be rendered by a known classical singer in
> a concert or in a recording.
>
A 'canonical' exposition of a raag (as in a khayal presentation) is
not being expected in a film song by anybody.
Let me quote Ajay again : 'But it lacks the characteristic
meend from komal ga to Sa that is is characteristic of
Jog (and therefore of Jogkauns)' (ANYWHERE in the song).
In other words, if necessary conditions were present
(and they are missing, as my quote from Vish's email makes clear)
we would have a far stronger case to say that the song is based on
Jogkauns. It is okay for a film song to not stick strictly to a raag;
but it is not okay for it to avoid its necessary conditions entirely.
And that is why the possibility of a closer fit with an unknown (and
possibly non-existent as of today) raag was alluded to.
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
Is this "meeNd" the ONLY characteristic of Jogkauns ?
Aren't there other aspects of the Raaga that one could
look for in any composition ? Assuming "Yes" and "No"
to be the answers to these questions, one cannot quite
comprehend why anyone would think of this Raaga in the
context of this song.
You are not happy when any questions are posed. But I
feel that this is one good way of reducing the issue
to arguable points and thereby leading to a satisfactory
(?) explanantion.
In this case, both Vish and Sanjeev have mentioned
Jogjkauns as the Raaga one can think of while dis-
cussing this song. They do not seem to have ruled
out this Raaga altogether. So why not go with that
conclusion ? Mention has been made of a closer fit
with an "unknown" Raaga. What is the use if nobody
can put a finger to this Raaga ? Today you have
added another dimension : this "unknown" raaga is
possibly "non-existent" ! How can anyone carry on
a discussion with reference to a "non-existent"
raaga ?
Afzal
naniwadekar
>
Both experts and novices (like you and I) keep posing questions
to try to get answers to the best of their ability; right?
> conclusion ? Mention has been made of a closer fit
> with an "unknown" Raaga. What is the use if nobody
> can put a finger to this Raaga ? Today you have
> added another dimension : this "unknown" raaga is
> possibly "non-existent" ! How can anyone carry on
> a discussion with reference to a "non-existent" raaga ?
>
That the more closely fitting raag (probably) doesn't exist today
does not mean that it will not come into existence tomorrow. It
might happen or it might not happen.
In the absence of a non-existent or little-known raag, the discussion
would tend to be carried on in terms of known entities. Here is an
insight from Rajan's article on Jog/kauns which should better explain
what I am driving at. (That the insight is about Jogkauns and that we
are discussing a song which is very close to Jogkauns is purely
entirely absolutely miraculously etc-ly etc-ly coincidental.)
" Gunidas's key insight was to base his melody (Jogkauns, that is) in
Malkauns but with a twist - he advanced the shuddha nishAd and
assigned a cameo to the komal nishAd. Modern rasikas will say that
the melody is based in Chandrakauns (recall that in those days what
we now refer to as Chandrakauns was a novelty). "
In short, if what we now refer to Chandrakauns had not come into
existence or had remained little-known, we should still talk about
Jogkauns only in the terms used by Rajan.
Will a raag which fits 'nis din barasat' more closely than Jogkauns
come into existence? I don't know. But if it does and if it becomes
fairly well-known (say) over next 20 years, it would be possible to say
in the year 2022 that 'nis din barasat' is based in that new Raag.
Is that meend the ONLY characteristic of Jogkauns? I don't know.
It certainly seems a very important condition.
You have also asked - Aren't there other aspects
of the Raaga that one could look for in any composition ?
Sure there are. Please read the quotes by Vish and Ajay
carefully. The song hits all the Jogkauns notes. And it lacks
the necessary meend. AND a closer fit is not known to exist.
Add them together and the song is legit-ly Jogkauns (for a
light composition).
The case of Asha's Marathi song 'jeevalagaa' is the exact reverse.
It has a Hindi counterpart : 'o baavarii' or some such words. Both
the Hindi song and the non-film Marathi original are MDed by
Hridaynath. Some claim that the song is in a Raag called
Shri-Gauri. I am told Hridaynath himself makes that claim.
But experts say it perfectly falls under Puriya Dhanashri umbrella.
('nis din barasat' does not perfectly fall under Jogkauns, even
for a light song. Check Ajay's recent rmim post.) Rajan has posted
the song under Puriya Dhanashri without even bothering to comment
on the Shri-Gauri claim. So PD fits the song so closely that there is
no reason to bother about noises being made about an even closer
fit. But Rajan HAS offered comments on a similar
topic. Here is a quote from his article on Raag Kedar, accessible
at www.sawf.org/rajan :
"We pause briefly to remark on the Kedar/Chandni Kedar imbroglio.
There is no consensus on just what Chandni Kedar is. It is, in my
considered opinion, an unnecessary distraction and gives one the
opportunity to decorate one's cassette with the label "Rare Raga."
In the estimation of some, strengthening of the komal nishAd and
shuddha gandhAr in standard Kedar gives rise to Chandni Kedar.
This precept is not always seen in practice. It is true that most of the
people run some minor variation on their canonical version and call it
"Chandni Kedar." But these changes are academic in nature and
of not much consequence. "
- dn
Afzal A. Khan
Thanks for your detailed and patient explanation.
First, a few points about raising questions. When a
problem or case presents itself and it does not admit
of an easy or straightforward solution, I instinctively
try to look at it from a judicial angle. Here also,
an issue was raised and, in a manner of speaking, you
and Surajit were contestants/litigants. Admittedly,
the arguments advanced and the evidence cited (expert
and not so expert opinions et al) were of a very complicated
nature and not easily understood, specially by someone
like me whose knowledge of classical music and its
nuances is even less than "minimal". So, in order to get
the issues in a firmer focus, I posed a few questions.
You can compare it to the process of "framing the issues".
Instead of having people talking nineteen to the dozen, the
discussion would be carried in a more focused fashion.
At least that was my hope. But you mentioned one Sudhir
Kakkad (obviously someone you are familiar with) and the
irritation was palpable. If you state now that you have
no problem with my questions, I accept that statement
unreservedly.
You have quoted an opinion of Mr. Rajan Parrikar, and both
of them deserve the greatest respect. What I understood
from that quotation is that the original melody or Raaga
(from historical times) was Malkauns. Subsequently, and
not too far back in time, a variation came into being and
it was referred to as Chandrakauns. And later, Gunidas
created another innovation that came to be known as Jogkauns.
I hope this is a more or less accurate interpretation of
that quotation/expert opinion.
Enlarging on that theme, you seem to be of the opinion
that the Raaga on which the song in question is based
is a further (and probably latest) innovation or
variation of the original Raaga. Since Jogkauns is
now a well-established Raaga in its own right, let us
call that "original" Raaga as Jogkauns. The only thing
is that this particular innovation (or call that deviation)
from the original "canonical" Jogkauns has neither been
recognized so far nor, naturally, has been given any
name. Your statement (that this is a non-existent Raaga)
can be understood only in this context : That the
Raaga is very much in existence, as evidenced by this
very song. But it does not have a name. It has no inde-
pendent identity of its own. Once THAT happens, the
Raaga can be deemed to have come into existence. I think
this is your position. Please tell me if I have understood
it incorrectly.
I think what Surajit Bose has been saying is that the song
is in fact in Jogkauns. Quite obviously he does not
subscribe to your theory. Even you admit that, despite
lacking that "necessary meeNd", the song hits all (other)
Jogkauns notes. Even the experts cited by you have accepted
this position. So I see no harm if this point is conceded.
Maybe Surajit will have a different opinion in 2022 !
Certainly there is no need or justification for such
vituperative/abusive language.
I daresay when Gunidas created Jogkauns, it may
not have been recognized as such immediately. It might have
taken 20 or 40 or 50 years. Right now I don't quite know
the exact time-period when Gunidas ruled over the realm of
classical music.
What I have stated above is not to be taken as a "verdict"
in this "case". But it is my fervent hope that it would
put a stop to the continuous exchange of posts involving
uncalled for language.
In a sense, I am disappointed that there was very little
participation by experts like Vish Krishnan, Sanjeev
Ramabhadran and others.
Let us leave the discussion of Purya Dhanshree and Raaga
Kedar/Chandni Kedar to another day !
Afzal
Surajit A. Bose
"naniwadekar" <not_thi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> So far from lacking the skill to know that it is Jogkauns, I had
> (correctly) guessed that it did not have Jogkauns signature. That is
> one reason why I believed it when I was told it was Kaushik Ranjani.
Your attempt to pretend that your mistake stems from a real knowlege is
both pathetic and ludicrous. You couldn't judge that the song lacks the
shuddh rishab prayog that's the *sole* distinguishing feature of Kaushik
Ranjani! But you expect us to believe that you could judge that it has
all the notes but lacks the characteristic miind of Jog! Do you think
RMIMers are really so stupid they'd fall for that?
> > Whether or not the song is in Jog Kauns doesn't
> > depend on who's making the claim, you stupid nitwit.
> >
> For a change, you are correct. The song *is* Jogkauns-ish despite
> the claim by a moron like you that it is in Jogkauns.
Again: *you're* calling *me* a moron? bwahahahahahaha. Look around you,
imbecile: even somebody like Afzal, who has no pretentions to knowledge
of classical music, can see through you with his forensic intellect.
> My original quote : 'his 78 rpm recording
> in raag Saagar was released long ago' (as told me by a friend) can also
> allow for the possibility that 'Raag Saagar' is a Raag Mala.
To say that a recording is "in" raag Sagar logically and grammatically
implies that there is a raag named Sagar. You tried to crucify me for
saying there was no such thing. Now you're trying to say that you didn't
mean that! What a barefaced liar you are.
-s
Ashok
>
>
> I think what Surajit Bose has been saying is that the song
> is in fact in Jogkauns. Quite obviously he does not
> subscribe to your theory. Even you admit that, despite
> lacking that "necessary meeNd", the song hits all (other)
> Jogkauns notes. Even the experts cited by you have accepted
> this position. So I see no harm if this point is conceded.
> Maybe Surajit will have a different opinion in 2022 !
Actually, Surajit's opinion was different in the 20th century!
Sometime ago, he had gone on record on RMIM with equal degree of
confidence that the song "nis din" was in Chandrakauns.
> Certainly there is no need or justification for such
> vituperative/abusive language.
How can it be otherwise? On a particular reading of the Ghalib
line, at every "baat" he shows what he is!
> Afzal
Ashok
Surajit A. Bose
adhar...@hotmail.com (Ashok) wrote:
> In article <3DAA1678...@yahoo.com>, il_...@yahoo.com says...
> >
> >
> > I think what Surajit Bose has been saying is that the song
> > is in fact in Jogkauns. Quite obviously he does not
> > subscribe to your theory. Even you admit that, despite
> > lacking that "necessary meeNd", the song hits all (other)
> > Jogkauns notes. Even the experts cited by you have accepted
> > this position. So I see no harm if this point is conceded.
> > Maybe Surajit will have a different opinion in 2022 !
>
>
> Actually, Surajit's opinion was different in the 20th century!
> Sometime ago, he had gone on record on RMIM with equal degree of
> confidence that the song "nis din" was in Chandrakauns.
Ashok! Trust you to rush in to fan the flames. 8-P
What I vaguely remember saying, in response to a query from Afzal (or
Ikram? sometimes I can't tell the two apart) many years ago about
comparing similar songs, was that "nisadin barasat" was "more or less"
close to Chandrakauns. Which it is. I deny absolutely that I have ever
stated, unqualified, that the song is in Chandrakauns.
-s
Ashok
>
>In article <aodlr...@enews2.newsguy.com>,
> adhar...@hotmail.com (Ashok) wrote:
>
>> In article <3DAA1678...@yahoo.com>, il_...@yahoo.com says...
>> >
>> >
>> > I think what Surajit Bose has been saying is that the song
>> > is in fact in Jogkauns. Quite obviously he does not
>> > subscribe to your theory. Even you admit that, despite
>> > lacking that "necessary meeNd", the song hits all (other)
>> > Jogkauns notes. Even the experts cited by you have accepted
>> > this position. So I see no harm if this point is conceded.
>> > Maybe Surajit will have a different opinion in 2022 !
>>
>>
>> Actually, Surajit's opinion was different in the 20th century!
>> Sometime ago, he had gone on record on RMIM with equal degree of
>> confidence that the song "nis din" was in Chandrakauns.
>
>Ashok! Trust you to rush in to fan the flames. 8-P
"rush in"? I was waiting for the appropriate psychological moment!
Now that "ka.Nsa-kRshhNa" battle has reached the end-game stage,
I think the moment is right. (Who's ka.Nsa and who is kRshhNa?)
>What I vaguely remember saying, in response to a query from Afzal (or
>Ikram? sometimes I can't tell the two apart) many years ago about
>comparing similar songs, was that "nisadin barasat" was "more or less"
>close to Chandrakauns. Which it is. I deny absolutely that I have ever
>stated, unqualified, that the song is in Chandrakauns.
>
>-s
You didn't, but why bring up Chandrakauns and not mention Jog_kauns?
Let me post your article. It makes for a good reading, anyway, as
most your articles do. (NB: most ~= all).
Ashok
From: Surajit A. Bose (bos...@nd.edu)
Subject: Re: Similar tunes (or meters)?
View: Complete Thread (35 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc
Date: 1997/03/07
I'm ombining my reply to three or four articles, in order to avoid posting
four separate messages on the group.
In article <5fm0ci$6...@news.service.uci.edu>, ppa...@isis.ics.uci.edu
(Preeti Ranjan Panda) wrote:
> However, there is the question of the main melody in a song being
> copied from tunes of existing compositions. S. indicates that the rest
> of the song (orchestration+ornamentation) also needs to be composed,
> and one cannot call the whole entity a 'copy'. True, but then it is
> also futile, in the same vein, to level copying allegations on many
> other songs, most of which borrow the melody from some source
> (western/indian), and are also re-orchestrated.
I think there is a big difference. When one thinks of a bandish in a
raaga, one thinks of it as a field of possibilities. One doesn't think of
it as a full-fledged composition. It's just something that allows the
performer to bring out the potential of the raaga, and this can be done in
any number of ways. Quite literally, every renditions of a bandish is
unique. And the bandish is SUPPOSED to be performed again and again, by
different performers. Iin fact this is what gives it its identity as a
well-known bandish in Raaga XYZ. So a film song which uses the same
sthaayi-antara as a well-known bandish is just carrying on the tradition
of interpreting the bandish. This is not only OK, it is expected. That is
what the bandish is for. It makes absolutely zero sense to complain about
it or accuse the MD of lifting the bandish.
On the other hand, when Moody Blues compose "when the sun goes down, and
the clouds are brown," and it reappears as the interludes and antaraa of
"mujhe gale se lagaalo, bahut udaas huu.N mai.n," it's stealing. (Actually
I'm not sure which of the two songs was composed earlier, so maybe it was
Moody Blues who stole the song. Or just coincidence, but that's VERY
unlikely; the songs are too close for the similarity to be random.) These
songs are NOT put together as fields of possibility. They are put together
as finished products that are the result of a definite composer's efforts.
The composer deserves credit for the song in a very different way.
How can I explain? Hmm. Let's see. When Roshan composes and Lata M. sings
"garajat barasat bhiijat aailoo," it is NOT Roshan's bandish. It is still
a public domain bandish that Roshan has used for one particular rendition.
I might say, "Roshan saab, aapne baDii khuubii se ba.Ndish sa.Nvaarii
hai," but I should not say, "Vah! vah! ye to bahut achhi bandish aapne
banaayii hai, Roshan saab." The latter is a mistake on the same level as
praising Asha Bhosle for the music of Umraao Jaan. Just as Asha gets
credit for delivering the songs well, but the credit for the music itself
goes to Khayyam; so also, Lata gets credit for singing "garajat barasat
bhiijat aaiilo" well, Roshan gets credit for developing the bandish in the
way he has done; the credit for actually COMPOSING the bandish belongs to
nobody in particular; bahut puraanii bandish hai. (BTW, "bandish" is
striling, right? If it's puling, I'm sorry for the mistakes!) And since
the bandish is meant to be realized in different ways anyway, it's not
even just like recycling an old song. Roshan is just doing exactly what he
is supposed to do.
But when RDB or Bappi or whoever lifts from a song, then it's both illegal
and unethical. The way Western tradition works, that particular sequence
of notes is the brainchild and intellectual property of that composer or
rock group. Others are not supposed to use the same sequence of notes.
Personally I too feel that music should not be copyrighted, but aside from
the legality of it, the question of originality comes in. The bandish is
an excuse for the performer to display his/her original perfomance of the
raga. What is the corresponding excuse for lifting a Western tune
note-for-note? Where does the originality come in?
It's interesting, but somehow I don't mind so much when MDs lift good
tunes from other MDs and creatively interpret them. Like when Madan Mohan
takes "tujhe kyaa sunaauu.N mai.n dilruba" from Sajjad's "ye havaa ye raat
ye chaa.Ndani," well, it's a good tune and MM does put his own stamp on
it. I think that because it is a reinterpretation of another Indian tune,
it's in a way almost like the same bandish being reinterpreted. Besides,
Madan Mohan freely gave credit for the original tune to Sajjad. (Aside:
I've heard so few of Sajjad's songs, just two or three, but each is
astonishingly brilliant; I cannot believe how much thought there is behind
each note in every song of his! Who is this man anyway? Are all his songs
that good, and which are they?) It would not bother me one bit if Bappi
Lahiri said, this song is "inspired by" this other song, and then actually
showed some signs of inspiration! Instead, there are note-for-note lifts,
usually of fifth-rate songs anyway, which pisses me off.
In article <331EFA...@raleigh.ibm.com>, iak...@raleigh.ibm.com wrote:
> A few questions -
> > *"balamaa maane naa" from ???
> > "mana tarapata" from Baiju Bavara
> > --both in Malkauns
>
> Is that balmaa~~, maane na, bairii chup na rahe, laagi man ki kahe....?
yes. See how different the same raag can be? :-) Also, see if you can
compare these songs to the famous Surdas bhajan "nis din tarasat (sic!) nain
hamaare / sadaa rahat paavas ritu hampar / jabse shyam sidhaare" which
Lata has sung for Hridaynath. This bhajan is in Chandrakauns (more or
less) which is closely related to Malkauns.
> Kinda rhetorical q -
> Humko man ki shakti dena and
> bekas pe karam kiijiye are not similar??
oh yes they are too. The tune of the six opening words "ham ko man ki
shakti dena" is the same as the tune of the first four words of the
prelude, "ae mere mushkil pushaa," of the other song. The same set of
notes:
Sa ma, ma, ma (Ga) Pa,
(where: lowercase means lower note, ie shudh madhyam; parentheses means
grace note, ie kaNsvar)
> : What is a raag? What is a raagini? I have heard that Bhairavii is
> : a raagini, which kinda disqualifies it from the question - Which is
> : the raag most used in film songs... Is that true?
>
> There was a very informative discussion on the
> rec.music.indian.classical newsgroup recently, initiated by insightful
> questions from Tom Storer. The discussions were centered around
> explaining the meanings to a beginner, and are very valuable. If the
> postings have expired on your site, you could access them via some
> repository like dejanews.
Well, thank you, Panda Sahib, for mentioning this RMIC thread! Makes it
easier for me to overcome my modesty (ahem!) and, once again, cite myself
in approved scholarly fashion! My do paise worth on the "What is a raga"
thread on RMIC was pulled off the NG by Shri Andrew Burgher and posted on
the Raag Mala website. Point your browser to
http://www.planet.eon.net/~raga/deskar.html
for an exhaustive (and exhausting!) definition of "raga."
> Which is the raag most used in film songs...
Tough to decide Yaman (including Yamankalyan, a slight variant on the
original raga) and Bhairavi. Interestingly, sa.ngeet sikhaane me.n
praakhya ye hai, ki ye do raag pehle sikhaae jaae. kaaraN ye, ke Yaman
me.n saare tiivra svar lagte hai.n, Bhairavi me.n saare komal. phir ye do
raag ek-ke-baad-ek sikhaae jaaye to vidyaarThiyo.n ko saare komal, shudh,
tiivra suro.n ka gyaan praapt hotaa hai. Between them, the two ragas
explore the entire chromatic scale. This may explain why some MD's keep
using these ragas over and over again. Maybe they never learned anything
beyond these two ragas! Joking apart, these two are among the ragas that
are very popular and very broad in scope. They can be used for a variety
of songs. Can there be two more different songs than "khudaa nigahabaan ho
tumhaara" and "inhi logo.n ne"? Yet they are both in Yaman. (Well, insofar
as it's proper to assign any raag to the second song.) Besides, it's
considered auspicious to sing Yaman at the beginning of any ceremony (that
is why it's also called KalyaaN). And it is traditional to end music
concerts with Bhairavi. So one might say that the ragas are the beginning
and the end of music, in more ways than one. No wonder there are so many
film songs in these ragas.
In article <331F31...@us.oracle.com>, Sujay Y Jalihal
<sjal...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
> > *"tere sur aur mere giit" from Goonj Uthi Shehnai
> > "koi gaataa mai.n so jaata" from Alaap
> > "chaa.Nd akelaa jaaye" also from Alaap
> > --all in Bihag; Bihag also occurs at the beginning of a raagmala in Alaap
> > (the other ragas are Shankara, Des, and Patdeep), making Alaap the only
> > movie I know where the same raga has been used for three very different
> > songs. No other MD could have done this....
>
> FYI, OPN did it in "phagun". he gave all the songs (11) in only one raga
> that's "piloo".
oh please....piloo is not a real raag, it's just a "dhun." The rules of
Piloo are so relaxed, practically anything is possible. Bihag, OTOH, is a
real raga. Rigid rules for interpretation and development. It's
interesting information about OPN and Phagun, did not know this before,
thanks. OPN actually did come up with one or two very good classical
songs, very impressive for someone who had not formal training in music.
Try "tuu hai meraa prem devata" from Kalpana. Nice teentaal in Lalit. (OK,
Malini, it is not as good as "priitam daras dikhaao," but what is? :-))
cheers,
s
Afzal A. Khan
Ashok wrote:
> > Certainly there is no need or justification for such
> > vituperative/abusive language.
>
> How can it be otherwise? On a particular reading of the Ghalib
> line, at every "baat" he shows what he is!
>
> > Afzal
>
> Ashok
It is either : There is no need to identify "he". }
} !!
or : It is convenient to leave it unsaid. }
Afzal
Chetan
>
> "rush in"? I was waiting for the appropriate psychological moment!
> Now that "ka.Nsa-kRshhNa" battle has reached the end-game stage,
> I think the moment is right. (Who's ka.Nsa and who is kRshhNa?)
"ka.Nsa" reminds me. You should have changed your subject
title to something like "kaun_saa kau.Ns?". Then, Nani would
have had a chance to jump up (and down and all over again)
with the connection between the raag family name and the name
of Krishna's maternal uncle. Of course, only Marathis would
get that connection and the other connection (between
Kauns and Hamsadhwani) he would no doubt mention :)
As an aside, this is not the first time raag assignments have
changed/morphed over time. I still remember being ridiculed
for having suggested timidly "ghanashaam su.ndaraa" was in
Bhoop. (Surajit had even implied that VD had deliberately
composed it in Deshkar to throw me off!) To his credit, however,
changing one's opinion is fine. It is a sign of growing and
learning. A *very* learned musician is said to have scoffed
at the quest for raag associations for "light" music!
C
Surjit Singh
Chetan wrote:
Even tho I know diddly-squat about raag and such, because of the (still
continuing) cockfight between -s and nani, I am inclined to make the
following claim,
Except possibly when explicitly mentioned on the record or so claimed by
the composer,
all assignments of raag to a Hindi Film Song are BOGUS.
++++
>
> C
>
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
http://films.hindi-movies-songs.com
http://worldline.hindi-movies-songs.com
Surajit A. Bose
adhar...@hotmail.com (Ashok) wrote:
> You didn't, but why bring up Chandrakauns and not mention Jog_kauns?
um....because I didn't think of it at the time? 8-)
> Let me post your article. It makes for a good reading, anyway, as
> most your articles do. (NB: most ~= all).
urk! I'm not sure whether to thank you or strangle you, Ashok. (Come to
think of it, you frequently have that effect on me.) parts of the
article are really embarrassing, five years down the road. (return of
the repressed, uncanny, whatever.)
for one thing, i no longer stand by that "what is a raaga" web page
(thank heavens it's a dead link on the article you reposted, but the
article keeps resurfacing at new URLs, without my permission; it's
changed URLs twice so far). It's too glib a definition of raaga and the
whole bhoop-deskar opposition it sets up is SO unsophisticated in its
understanding. The way Ramrang explains it on the SAWF site, that's the
way to do it. When I hear an exposition like that, simple and sharp as
Occam's razor, I realize how far I have to go to really understand
raagas.
oh well at least it goes to show I've learned something over the last
five years. Though I begin to appreciate the dude whose name I forget,
who said that the more he learns, the more he realizes how little he
knows.
And I still believe what I said back then about reinterpreting
bandish-es, so there 8-)
-s
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
> Even tho I know diddly-squat about raag and such, because of the (still
> continuing) cockfight between -s and nani, I am inclined to make the
> following claim,
>
> Except possibly when explicitly mentioned on the record or so claimed by
> the composer,
>
> all assignments of raag to a Hindi Film Song are BOGUS.
No, I wouldn't say that...for one thing, there isn't anything that
says a song has to be assigned to (or rather, associated with) *only*
one raag. We're talking about glimpses or shadows here, not
necessarily the whole package. Just because Kishore Kumar never went
on record to call "Koi Hamdam Na Raha" Jhinjhoti doesn't mean there's
no association.
Sanjeev
Ashok
>
>
>Even tho I know diddly-squat about raag and such, because of the (still
>continuing) cockfight between -s and nani, I am inclined to make the
>following claim,
>
>Except possibly when explicitly mentioned on the record or so claimed by
>the composer,
>
>all assignments of raag to a Hindi Film Song are BOGUS.
>++++
>
>>
>> C
>>
>
>
>--
>Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
"Except possibly when explicitly mentioned on the record"
Why the touchging faith in what HMV might put on the record?
I am sure you can document cases where HMV has bungled even
simpler attributions on the record cover, such as, the singer.
I suppose your use of the word "possibly" takes care of these
occasions?
Q: Is there any instance of raaga identification having been
given for a film song on the record?
Ashok
Surjit Singh
to" in my previous post). Sanjeev has pointed out that there may be more
than one raag associated with one song.
So, there are three possibilities:
A. The number of raag associated with a Hindi Film Song is zero.
B. The number of raag associated with a HFS is exactly one.
C. The number of raag associated with a HFS is more than one.
Because HF music mostly is not like classical music, I would say most
HFS fall into category A. A small number will fall into B or C.
For A, the claim of any raag is bogus, by definition. For C, there are
usually so many possibilities that it generates endless and unneeded
arguments bewtween RMIMers, because the experts get quoted but they dont
speak. I am still iclined to use the word bogus for C.
My mention of composer or record was with respect to B. Sometimes MDs
say in interviews (published or not) that one or more songs of theirs
have raag associated with them. Other times, I see the name of the raag
mentioned alongside a song in the bible. Since most of the song info
there comes from records or booklets, I put down records to start the
thread. Ashok is basically discussing who we should trust in case B.
I am willing to evolve towards an objective source fro B if we can find
one. MD is probably the best idea.
Ashok wrote:
http://films.hindi-movies-songs.com
http://worldline.hindi-movies-songs.com
naniwadekar
"Ashok" <adhar...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> Q: Is there any instance of raaga identification having been
> given for a film song on the record?
>
Yes. For the raag-mala in Hamdard.
It has four stanzas. Side One of its 78 rpm contains the first two
stanzas. 'ritu aaye ... jeth mahinaa jiyaa ghabaraaye' is in Gaud
Sarang, 'barakha ritu bairi hamaar' in Gaud Malhar. The 78 rpm
record shows the words 'Raag Sarang aur Malhar'. Now (just) Sarang
is not Gaud Sarang, nor (just) Malhar Gaud Malhar. But the
intention of identifying the raags on the record is clear.
Side Two has the remaining two stanzas, 'pii bin sunaa rii' in
Jogiya and 'aaii madhu ritu basant bahaar' in Bahaar. This side
of the 78 rpm carries the words 'Raag Jogiya aur Bahaar'.
I thought Prof SS was just joking when he made his first post
which declared that all raag assignments for Hindi Film Songs
are bogus unless claimed by the MD or mentioned on the record.
But now it seems he is quite serious. I am afraid he is not even wrong.
I have known instances where two experts stood side by side, talking
about possible raag associations for a given song in a raag which
calls for the phrase sa-re-ga-ma (taking a very simple, hypothetical
case of canonical phrasing). The song uses the phrase 'sa-re-ga' but
does not take the fourth note. One expert says it is still okay for me
and the song can be assigned to the raag. The other expert says just
three of the four notes are not good enough for him. The irreconciliable
difference of opinion does not mean the discussion is futile.
I have also known instances where an expert might give one-line
feedback : The song is based on Bhoop but some might want to
argue the case for Deskar. Someone else might make the same
statement but by switching the positions of Bhoop and Deskar.
>
> So, there are three possibilities:
>
> A. The number of raag associated with a Hindi Film Song is zero.
> B. The number of raag associated with a HFS is exactly one.
> C. The number of raag associated with a HFS is more than one.
>
>
> My mention of composer or record was with respect to B. Sometimes MDs
> say in interviews (published or not) that one or more songs of theirs
> have raag associated with them. Other times, I see the name of the raag
> mentioned alongside a song in the bible. Since most of the song info
> there comes from records or booklets, I put down records to start the
> thread. Ashok is basically discussing who we should trust in case B.
>
> I am willing to evolve towards an objective source fro B if we can find
> one. MD is probably the best idea.
>
We can say with confidence that only one raag is associated with a
song only if everybody (MD, expert, the neighbour's cat) agreed with
that proposition, right? So how would it matter whether it was Shankar
or Jaikishan or Vish who told us song AA was in raag BB? Why should
we lose (say) Vish as a source of information?
If Shankar claimed a song was in Bhoop but Vish advanced Deskar's
claim, would Prof SS still consider Shankar as an objective source just
because Vish is not an MD? What if Shankar's version was disputed
by Jaikishan? Do all Shankar's attributions become suspect then?
The idea of considering MD as the authentic source is quite bizarre, too.
I have attended a programme in which a fellow presented Sudhir
Phadke's songs. The presenter assigned Shivranjani to a song. I have
forgotten the song but its MD is Yeshwant Deo. The attribution made
no sense to me at all. After the programme, a member of the audience
ridiculed the Shivranjani attribution. The presenter said he knew
nothing about raagas but he heard about the attribution from the MD
himself. I don't believe it. It could be a case of some mix-up
somewhere. Suffice it to say that this is not a topic where search
for objective answers would make sense.
- dn
naniwadekar
"Chetan" <vin...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> learning. A *very* learned musician is said to have scoffed
> at the quest for raag associations for "light" music!
>
Dunno which musician you are talking about but Vasantrao
Deshpande used to insist that 'raag-type treatment must not
be sought in light music'. This, despite the fact that for light
music we associate him with Natyageets many of which are
quite faithful adaptations of classical bandishes.
Ironically, when I asked an expert whether 'din gele bhajanaaviiN
saare' was a Bilawal of the Alaiya variety, he told me Abhisheki
had never told him about the specific Bilawal association for the
song. Then he added : If a masterful vocalist like Vasantrao
had sung it (instead of Bhargavram Achrekar), it might be easier
to pin down the exact Bilawal prakar(s) used in the song. I will
revert to this song later, probably on rmic. But this expert, though
he has accompanied bhimsen et al on the harmonium, tries his
best to avoid doing specific raag attributions. He said he wanted
to devote only this much time to ICM and no more.
Secondly, Bhargavram Achrekar seems a very taiyyar vocalist
to me based on the evidence of this one song. I am not prepared
to accept 'if only Vasantrao had sung it' argument at all.
- dn
naniwadekar
"Surjit Singh" <surjit...@yahoo.com> wrote -
>
> So, there are three possibilities:
>
> A. The number of raag associated with a Hindi Film Song is zero.
> B. The number of raag associated with a HFS is exactly one.
> C. The number of raag associated with a HFS is more than one.
>
> Because HF music mostly is not like classical music, I would say most
> HFS fall into category A. A small number will fall into B or C.
>
> For A, the claim of any raag is bogus, by definition. For C, there are
> usually so many possibilities that it generates endless and unneeded
> arguments bewtween RMIMers, because the experts get quoted but they dont
> speak. I am still iclined to use the word bogus for C.
>
I should have made my rejoinder about point B in the post in which
I have talked about point C. But ...
Let me say now that the choice of the word 'bogus' is too frivolous.
Experts *did* speak through the act of being quoted. And isn't it of
some import that rather than giving one-word feedback, the experts
had to write several sentences to convey just where they stood?
- dn
Note to Afzal Sahab - I have not forgotten that I have still not
made the post I have promised over email. I will get to it. But
please do allow me some more time.
Afzal A. Khan
Surjit Singh wrote:
>
> Chetan wrote:
> > As an aside, this is not the first time raag assignments have
> > changed/morphed over time. I still remember being ridiculed
> > for having suggested timidly "ghanashaam su.ndaraa" was in
> > Bhoop. (Surajit had even implied that VD had deliberately
> > composed it in Deshkar to throw me off!) To his credit, however,
> > changing one's opinion is fine. It is a sign of growing and
> > learning. A *very* learned musician is said to have scoffed
> > at the quest for raag associations for "light" music!
>
> Even tho I know diddly-squat about raag and such, because of the (still
> continuing) cockfight between -s and nani, I am inclined to make the
> following claim,
>
> Except possibly when explicitly mentioned on the record or so claimed by
> the composer,
>
> all assignments of raag to a Hindi Film Song are BOGUS.
Sometimes when "brainstorming" sessions are held,
someone (perhaps deliberately) starts off with an
apparently outrageous idea which is then followed by
some serious discussion. My response may not fall
within the ambit of the latter, but still ....
I am giving below a very brief list of some HFM
songs. It is not even necessary to define the
Raagas with which these songs are associated.
1. Man tarapat hari darshan ko aaj
2. Laaga chunri men daaGH
3. Madhuban men radhika naache re
4. BaaT chalat nayi chunri (picturised on Anjali Devi)
5. -------- DO ----------- (picturised on Bharat Bhushan)
6. Kaise aauN Jamuna ke teer (from "Devta")
7. Tu hai mera prem devta
8. Ik shahenshah ne banwa ke haseeN Taj Mahal
9. Ja re badra bairi ja ja ja re
Can we honestly say that any Raaga association with
these songs is bogus ?
Of course, there may be a few cases (like the "nis
din barsat" song) where there may be different opinions.
And even in this case, I doubt whether anyone made a
definite claim that it was NOT in Raaga A, but IN
Raaga B.
Such blanket characterizations (like something being
BOGUS etc.) may be useful for starting a debate,
but can otherwise be eschewed. Just MHO.
Afzal
> Surjit Singh
Ashok
> Sometimes when "brainstorming" sessions are held,
> someone (perhaps deliberately) starts off with an
> apparently outrageous idea which is then followed by
> some serious discussion.
> Afzal
Aah! Now, it all begins to make sense. I refer to your
postings on ITRANS. I had always wondered how come someone
with your intelligence and flair for judicious views could
be so obviously wrong, so obtusely uncomprehending, and so
obdurately foolish.
Ashok
Balaji A. Murthy
>
>Q: Is there any instance of raaga identification having been
>given for a film song on the record?
>
A couple of examples that I remember
- Evergreen Mood and Memories - Anil Biswas
- Hamdard duet in ragamaala
- Rani Roopmati
- u.D jaa bha.Nvar/aa jaa bha.Nwar
Have the raaga clearly identified on the Tape/CD inlay.
Doubtless, there will be more.
- Balaji