Mohd. Rafi Sahab & the Bharat Ratna
rafimurty
fans of Rafi Sahab appealing to the Government for conferment of the
Bharat Ratna to this great legend of a singer. Politics overtook
their campaign and soon the Govt. decided not to award the coveted
title to anyone. But many still feel that Rafi Sahab not only
deserves the Bharat Ratna this year, but also strongly believe that he
should have been honoured by our Govt. long long back. Lata
Mangeshkar got it in 2001, why not Rafi Sahab ?? That question will
always remain on top of the Rafi-lovers' mind.
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
Moreover, the Government has done away with awarding Bharat Ratna
posthumously. So it is too late honour him thus.
Though he was not awarded the highest civilian award, the fact remains
that he is still the best, several notches above the rest..
Regards
Sukesh
Naseer
aap saaHibaan ne jo kuchh likhaa hai Thiik likhaa hai, lekin, kyaa ek
anmol-ratan ko kisii awr ratan kii zaruurat hotii hai? jis chiiz kii
use zaruurat thii vuh hamaare diloN meN bastii hai!
Naseer
Artnut
"Naseer" <qure...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:eb52b0ac-1ca2-4b30...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Naseer
You all are right. Considering the tamasha and "request" to award the BR to
someone is all too known. It is really disgusting to see awards of this
stature being reduced to tamashar due to controversy by the most reviled
community-- the politicians. One things however, surprises me is that when
some artists claim that the real award for them is the "janta ka pyar" and
yet they crave for those filmi awards!
Arty
Ahmad
> "Naseer" <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just my opinion: Rafi was a very mediocre singer, does not deserve any
award. Of the thousands of songs he sang, I could only pick about 4/5
which I could listen to and enjoy. I know this is an extreme view,
but this what I honestly feel about his singing. He made a lot of
money and was well rewarded for his efforts. Awards are for great
singers. He was not one of them. Ahmad
Ahmad
>
> - Show quoted text -
I forgot to add that the 4/5 songs that I liked were duets, where Rafi
was supported by the female singers.
The first one I heard and liked and was the first to buy the record
was "Yahaan badla wafa ka bewafayee ke siwa kya haye" with
Noorjehan.
Some other duets as well, where he was the junior partner. Ahmad
AR
This is one extreme opinion. There is a piece about Rafi I read
somewhere on the internet which lies at the opposite of the end of the
spectrum. The piece said something like this: "Rafi was more than
infinitely superior to all singers of the past, present and future".
The words "more than infinitely" and "future" (with a verb in the past
tense in the same sentence) are definite rib-ticklers.
IMO, the truth lies somewhere in between the two: Rafi was one of the
greatest singers that India produced, but there are a large number of
singers whose achievements are of the same level.
AR
correction...I meant at the "opposite end of the spectrum".
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> greatest singers that India produced, but there are a large number of
> singers whose achievements are of the same level.
Do you mean worldwide? Else we have a disconnect, no, one of the
greatest singers, but large number of comparable singers?
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Which begs the question - who are *your* "great" singers?
Sanjeev
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
Junior partner how? In age/experience? Rafi's contribution to this
song doesn't merit him being labeled as a "junior partner".
Note that these are simply responses/questions to posts on the thread,
not necessarily any claim that Mohd. Rafi should get the Bharat Ratna.
Sanjeev
Asif
<sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 10:59 am, AR <aji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > IMO, the truth lies somewhere in between the two: Rafi was one of the
> > greatest singers that India produced, but there are a large number of
> > singers whose achievements are of the same level.
>
> Do you mean worldwide? Else we have a disconnect, no, one of the
Even if anyone considers singers from the entire world, Rafi towers
over them. Actually, I do not consider the so-called "singers" of any
other language than Urdu, Hindi, and Farsi, as singers, because no
other language is conducive to "singing" and even poetry.
Asif
Abhay Jain
"Ahmad" <mah...@talktalk.net> wrote in message
news:f8f2e526-ddc2-4fe4...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
Fact that you could only name duet with NoorJehan
is quite natural given the fact that you lhad eft India after partition.
Rafi did go on to sing a huge number of just superb songs
solo and duets.
AJ
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Even if anyone considers singers from the entire world, Rafi towers
> over them. Actually, I do not consider the so-called "singers" of any
> other language than Urdu, Hindi, and Farsi, as singers, because no
> other language is conducive to "singing" and even poetry.
All the award-reward debates aside, this is an incredibly myopic
worldview!
Forget about the world (singing in English, Arabic, French, Italian
etc. can be of the highest calibre even by lopsided India-centric
yardsticks), there are 20 Indian languages in which peaks of artistry
match Urdu/Hindi.
C
Asif
I did not say it properly, my mistake. I meant all Hindustani
languages when I mentioned just Hindi. In a haste I forgot to list
all 30+ languages and 50+ dialects of India.
Abhijit
Even then I cannot support your viewpoint. While all languages are
very much suitable for poetry in their own ways, "conducive to
singing" also has much to do with the speaking and listening styles of
each language.
rajendra
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mr. Ahmad may have his openion. But I have yet to come across another
Ahmad Bhai who considers Rafi as mediocre.
Rajendra
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
Mr. Ahmad has very a low opinion about Mohammad Rafi. To each his own.
It would be interesting to know his opinion about other singers
a) Mukesh, Talat Mehmood, Kishore Kumar, Hemant Kumar & Manna Dey.
b) Lata Mangeshkar, Geeta Dutt & Asha Bhosle.
I await for his feedback.
Regards
Sukesh
Ahmad
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes Rajendra, will do soon. I would also like to put examples of the
best songs of all great singers that I have, and perhaps Surjit Singh
will help me as I do not have a web site. Ahmad
Ahmad
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes Sukhesh, will do soon, currently making some copies of Kamla
Jharia songs for Surjit Singh. Ahmad
Asif
>
> > I did not say it properly, my mistake. I meant all Hindustani
> > languages when I mentioned just Hindi. In a haste I forgot to list
> > all 30+ languages and 50+ dialects of India.
>
> Even then I cannot support your viewpoint. While all languages are
> very much suitable for poetry in their own ways, "conducive to
> singing" also has much to do with the speaking and listening styles of
> each language.
OK, I take back my comment :-) By and large I am not highly impressed
with their (other international languages) poetry though.
dn.usenet
"Asif" <alvi.asif at gmail.com> wrote :
>
> Actually, I do not consider the so-called "singers" of any
> other language than Urdu, Hindi, and Farsi, as singers, because no
> other language is conducive to "singing" and even poetry.
>
Having made a statement which will be a strong candidate
for 'Most stupid comment of the year', it is good that you
retracted it in hurry later in the thread.
How much of the original non-Indian music from which your
chor hero R D Burman is documented to have stolen his
music have you heard? Presumably RDB was sufficiently
impressed by the package (singing, poetry, etc) to want
to steal from it.
dn.usenet
"Sanjeev Ramabhadran" asked Ahmad :
>
> Which begs the question - who are *your* "great" singers?
>
While we await Ahmad's response to the question, it isn't
as if someone who thinks Rafi was a mediocre singer can't
come up with his list of great singers.
I would put Lata in a class of her own.
My next string of great singers would be Saigal, Amirbai,
Mukesh and Talat. I would also add Asha's name to the
list for what she might have achieved if MDs could get
her to sing properly and forget about impressing daylights
out of the listener. Because of her needless extra efforts,
I find most of her music quite irritating. But when a Sudhir
Phadke or a Vasant Prabhu or a Hridaynath could make
her behave relatively well, the results were very good.
The shallow world of Hindi Films encouraged Asha's
shallowness; so for her best work, we must turn to Marathi.
Other good (but not great) singers were Uma Shashi, Shanta
Apte, Noor Jehan (upto 1947 only), Khurshid, Hemant
Kumar, Kishore Kumar, Suraiya, Rajkumari... this list
can go on and on. For his versatility, I don't mind adding
Rafi to this list but I find his singing so clueless that I would
push him one rung below. Post-1947 Noor Jehan might
keep him company, but to be fair to Rafi, his output in
1950s was far superior to Noor Jehan's junk in the
same decade.
Rafi sang quite well for Punjabi composers; for example,
O P Nayyar or Rafi's duets for Husnlal Bhagatram. His
fans are urged to petition Punjab Govt to award him
Punjab Ratna award.
If any opinion of mine is challenged, I will immediately take
it back, like Asif elsewhere in this thread.
But let's wait for Ahmad's (and also Sanjeev's) list of
great singers.
Asif
>
> Having made a statement which will be a strong candidate
> for 'Most stupid comment of the year', it is good that you
> retracted it in hurry later in the thread.
>
> How much of the original non-Indian music from which your
> chor hero R D Burman is documented to have stolen his
> music have you heard? Presumably RDB was sufficiently
> impressed by the package (singing, poetry, etc) to want
> to steal from it.
1. tumane mujhe dekhaa (Teesri Manzil, 1966)
2. aajaa piyaa tohe pyaar duu.N (Baharon Ke Sapne, 1967)
3. waadiyaa.N meraa daaman (Abhilasha, 1968)
4. tum bin jaauu.N kahaa.N (Pyar Ka Mausam, 1969)
5. na ko_ii uma.Ng hai (Kati Patang, 1970)
6. ye jo mohabbat hai (Kati Patang,1970)
7. jis gali me.n tera ghar na ho (Kati Patang, 1970)
8. kitanaa pyaaraa waadaa hai (Caravan, 1971)
9. piyaa tuu ab to aajaa (Caravan, 1971)
10. raat kalii ik Kwaab me.n aa_ii (Budhha Mil Gaya, 1971)
11. dam maaro dam (Hare Rama Hare Krishna, 1971)
12. o mere dil ke chain (Mere Jeevan Saathi, 1972)
13. diiwaanaa leke aaya hai (Mere Jeevan Saathi, 1972)
14. aao aao jaan\-e\-jahaa.N (Gomti Ke Kinare, 1972)
15. jaan\-e\-jaa.N Dhoo.NDhataa phir rahaa (Jawani Diwani, 1972)
jise maahaul banaane kaa saliiqaa hii no
us i.nsaan ko maahaul sazaa detaa hai
Come out of your hell hole, Nani, and open your eyes and ears. Your
punishment is over.
:-)
Ahmad
I will add shortly add a Thread for "Great and Good Singers", So
that we can debate this. In music there is no right or wrong. You
like it or you don't. So please do not lose your cool. MA
Ahmad
Yes, will add a new thread for great and good singers shortly for a
new debate. Sorry for for my lack of enthusiasm for Rafi. Ahmad
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> I did not say it properly, my mistake. I meant all Hindustani
> languages when I mentioned just Hindi. In a haste I forgot to list
> all 30+ languages and 50+ dialects of India.
Expanding a list from 3 to 80+ does not amount to "not saying it
properly"!
Any case, you are in more trouble now. Hindi and German are
linuguistically more similar than Hindi and Tamil. So on what basis
are you excluding, say, German from your list?
C
ps - you have timidly taken back your poetry comment for which I have
nothing to say since I don't know most of the languages of the world.
How many laguages do you know well enough to appreciate poetry in
them?
Asif
> How many laguages do you know well enough to appreciate poetry in
> them?
Currently I am studying Serbo-Croat. Others I know (with varying
degrees of comfort/knowledge level): English, Hindi, Urdu, Spanish,
Arabic, Farsi, Serbo-Croat, and Turkish. Once I learn them better, I
will be in a better position to reassess my comment. For now my
comment does not hold water for even myself after I noted Abhijeet's
comment about "different singing styles in different languages".
Saket
Also, there is a little too much emphasis on language in this
discussion, not that it doesn't help to have a good lyrics. Music/real
melody is beyond spoken word, like the sounds of nature. Is that not
the reason why we hear so many popular songs get copied elsewhere ?
To the original post of this thread, IMO, the way Mohd. Rafi kept
multitudes in this country & elsewhere spellbound with his singing &
continues to do so, he deserves the 'Ratna'. It's not a rating about
how good he was as a singer w.r.t anyone else, but instead how many
came closer in putting a smile on the lips of listeners in this land,
than him.
No awards Posthmously/No political force behind him today, may be the
pretexts but can't discredit the merit of case.
Saket
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> > How many laguages do you know well enough to appreciate poetry in
> > them?
>
> Currently I am studying Serbo-Croat. Others I know (with varying
> degrees of comfort/knowledge level): English, Hindi, Urdu, Spanish,
> Arabic, Farsi, Serbo-Croat, and Turkish.
This is genuinely amazing! Thanks for sharing.
C
Ahmad
Chetan, Entire world ! I have an even larger collection of singers
from rest of the world, Russia, Italy, France, Germany, etc. Great
singers, but you can not choose one above the other. Each singer
takes us to a different level.
Coming back to Mohammad Rafi, yes, he was a commercial success and
well rewarded for it. If there was an award for Industry, I would go
along with it for Rafi. But as a singer, no. Ahmad
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Chetan, Entire world ! I have an even larger collection of singers
> from rest of the world, Russia, Italy, France, Germany, etc. Great
> singers, but you can not choose one above the other. Each singer
> takes us to a different level.
You are saying the same thing as me. I am not sure if you thought I
had put Hindi singers above all else. Oh, and the reason for choosing
those 4 languages and putting the rest into etc. is that I can
actively recollect great singing in them (Billie Holiday, Um Khulsum,
Edith Piaf and Maria Callas resply).
> Coming back to Mohammad Rafi, yes, he was a commercial success and
> well rewarded for it. If there was an award for Industry, I would go
> along with it for Rafi. But as a singer, no.
I haven't seen all your posts (apologies) but do tell who you would
rate as the top 5 Hindi film singers.
C
Ahmad
Yes, Chetan I agree with your choice of foreign singers and I have a
lot of their records, but we will not discuss them here.
Regarding good Indian film singers; well it depends which decade you
are talking about. In my opinion the great era was the New Theatres
era and almost all its singers such as Saigal, Kanan, Asheet Baran,
Pankaj Mallick, Usha, Utpala Sen, KC Dey are just a few among them.
If you are talking of later era starting withMohammad Rafi, then I
will give you my opinion soon in a new thread. Mukesh and Lata will
be among them. Regards. Ahmad
Manish Wadhane
> To the original post of this thread, IMO, the way Mohd. Rafi kept
> multitudes in this country & elsewhere spellbound with his singing &
> continues to do so, he deserves the 'Ratna'. It's not a rating about
> how good he was as a singer w.r.t anyone else, but instead how many
> came closer in putting a smile on the lips of listeners in this land,
> than him.
Perfecto! Saket. And that did bring a smile to my lips. :-)
Yes, here we are not talking about a "singing" award. I don't know
what parameters are considered for Bharat Ratna award, but, if in
case, it is about bringing joy to people, Rafi saab definitely
deserves it.
-Manish
rafimurty
Hello there Saket and Manish, you said it loud and clear. Rafi Sahab
was not just the best singer ever, he was also a very good human
being and very god-fearing. That made him the humbles ever. No ego, no
air to beat around. He was the friendliest of all in the film
industry. Several times in his surging career, he has helped the needy
musicians and music directors. Despite his numero uno position, he
always went with the dictats of the music directors and never ever
gave a opinion when it was not wanted. No controversies were attached
to his name. He sang the best of "patriotic" songs the nation to
cherish for eternity. I firmly believe there was no singer before or
after who could even remotely come near Rafi Sahab's paragons. Thanks
for your comments, both of you.
Saket
Just occurred to me, even if there is any dispute over what qualities
befit the 'Ratna' what is the excuse Hindi Movie industry has for not
conferring 'Phalke' on him ? And indeed to a few others IMO.
Admittedly, even 'Phalke' is given by govt of bharat i.e. India but
surely industry bodies have some influence.
How many undeserved have got 'Ratna' & 'Phalke' can become another
thread ! but no need to pay any undue attention to those I guess.
Thanks Manish/rafimurty (is that your name?) for expressing your
opinions.