Kishore songs: Same tune in Bengali and Hindi
Ramesh Hariharan
solo). The music sounds RDish. I was listening to this KK bengali songs
tape and came across a song "Andhokare re ratersheshe" which has exactly
the same tune.
Couple of qns ... 1) Are the MD's for the two scores the same ? .ie. Is
it a plagiarized tune.
2) Which version was produced earlier ?
--
Ramesh Hariharan, Princeton U.
Chala jaata hoon kisi ki dhun mein dhadakte dil ke tarane liye
Milan ki masti bhari aankhon mein hazaaron sapane suhane liye
Balaji
>I am refering to the song "Jin raaton kee bhor nahi hai" (a superb KK
>solo). The music sounds RDish. I was listening to this KK bengali songs
The music is by KK himself: that multifaceted genius is also one of the
best composers ever. The hindi version is from Dur gagan ki chhaun men,
1964. I suspect the bong version was also scored by him, but I dunno
which one came first.
--
Balaji
To see the beauty of Laila, requires the eyes of Majnu.
Arun Verma
>Couple of qns ... 1) Are the MD's for the two scores the same ? .ie. Is
> it a plagiarized tune.
>
> 2) Which version was produced earlier ?
>
music by KK himself.
No idea about #2 too.
Arun>
Sambit Basu
>hari...@flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (Ramesh Hariharan) writes:
>>I am refering to the song "Jin raaton kee bhor nahi hai" (a superb KK
>>solo). The music sounds RDish. I was listening to this KK bengali songs
>The music is by KK himself: that multifaceted genius is also one of the
>best composers ever. The hindi version is from Dur gagan ki chhaun men,
>1964. I suspect the bong version was also scored by him, but I dunno
>which one came first.
I don't think there is any bong-version of this particular
song, or for that matter of any song from "Duur Gagan..."
"Jin RaatoN kee..." has an unmistakable Tagorian structure
in tune. The modulation in the word "bhor" in the very
first line marks the Tagorian influence.
Any opinion?
Regards,
Sambit
Guri
Basu) writes:
>
>bal...@nexus.yorku.ca (Balaji) writes:
>
>>hari...@flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (Ramesh Hariharan) writes:
>
>>>I am refering to the song "Jin raaton kee bhor nahi hai" (a superb
KK
>>>solo). The music sounds RDish. I was listening to this KK bengali
songs
>
>>The music is by KK himself: that multifaceted genius is also one of
the
>>best composers ever. The hindi version is from Dur gagan ki chhaun
men,
>>1964. I suspect the bong version was also scored by him, but I dunno
>>which one came first.
>
> I don't think there is any bong-version of this particular
> song, or for that matter of any song from "Duur Gagan..."
>
> Sambit
Here's the first few lines of the Bong version of "Jin Raaton Ki Bhor
Nahin Hai, Aaj Aisi Hi Raat Ayi" :
Aandhokarer Ei, Raater Sheshe
Soorjo Kaino Udhiyo Na
Bhorer Parthe BhoomiBhuate
Aamay kailoje Daaklo Na...
Lyrics=Shibdas Banerjee
Music=KK
That's as close as I can get from the CD without knowing what each of
these words mean!
The CD is titled "Songs to Remember...Kishore Kumar" (EMI)
can someone who knows this song in bengali pleeeeeeeease give us the
exact lyrics, with meanings.:)
guri
Abhay Avachat
question to ask.
A few months back, I heard KK singing a song written and composed by
the great Robindranath Tagore. The tune was very similar to the song
by SDB in Abhiman - "tere mere milan ki ye raina". No idea about the
Bengali lyrics, but the only difference was that, it was a slightly
slower paced song. Can anybody provide more info ?
I know that, many MDs have taken inspiration from Robindra Sangeet,
but this one sounded like plagiarism. I know Chetan Vicchi (he has
been around, right) and Pradeep Dube won't like this :-), but then
can somebody knowledgeable explain me whether this is plagiarism or
not ?
Thanks.
- Abhay.
An illiterate in Robindra Sangeet :-(
Ayub Mohammed P910
>
> In <3l25qp$g...@gandalf.rutgers.edu> sam...@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Sambit
> Basu) writes:
>
> Here's the first few lines of the Bong version of "Jin Raaton Ki Bhor
> Nahin Hai, Aaj Aisi Hi Raat Ayi" :
>
>
> Aandhokarer Ei, Raater Sheshe
> Soorjo Kaino Udhiyo Na
>
> Bhorer Parthe BhoomiBhuate
> Aamay kailoje Daaklo Na...
>
>
> Lyrics=Shibdas Banerjee
> Music=KK
>
> can someone who knows this song in bengali pleeeeeeeease give us the
> exact lyrics, with meanings.:)
andhokarer ei, raatayr shashay
soorjo kayno uTlo na
bhorayr paakhi ghum bhagatay
aamai kayno jay daklow na
raatayr taara haariyay gachay
meghayr kowlay jay nai Thikana
poornimayr chaandayr aalow
jochona ho-ay kayno uTlo na
golaab phoolayr gondho diyay
bhulayi jaabay kay-o jaanayna
golaab kaaTar aGhaat showaychi
golaab phool aar josholona
these are the full lyrics of the song,
rest of the information are correct. There are some
excellent songs in that CD; all songs music by KK except
for three by Amit Kumar.
The Bangla version was done later than the Hindi one. The
reason I say this is from the quality of the recording. The
Bangla version has got superior quality and seems to have been
written in the late 70s or early 80s, definately not written
in the 60s. Although the tune of both the songs are same,
the music is completely different. the Hindi version has got
minimal background music but the Bangla version has got some
excellent sitar interludes and a tabla throuhout the song.
Aniruddha Dasgupta
: Sorry Ramesh, no info about your query. In fact I have another
: question to ask.
: Thanks.
Yes, SDB did use the tune of the well known Rabindra Sangeet
'Jadi tare nai chini go seki'
in Abhiman.
I can't say whether borrowing tunes from other languages can be called
as plagarisms. What I feel is that if the tune is good it does not matter
which language it is in. In fact it gives a chance for people who
otherwise would not have heard the song in a different language to
really enjoy it when it is recomposed in their own language. In fact
some songs of Rabindranath have old hindi classical tunes as well as
some have Western tunes. Are they plagarisms?
-Aniruddha.
--
***************************************************************************
Aniruddha Dasgupta e-mail: adas...@uoguelph.ca
Dept. of Computing & Info. Sc. an...@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca
U. of Guelph,
Guelph, Ontario,
N1G 2W1, Canada.
***************************************************************************
Guri
writes:
I agree...great job Ayub...could you do us one more favor and give us
the meanings of the bong version?!:)
thanks a lot!
guri
Ayub Mohammed P910
>
> Yes, SDB did use the tune of the well known Rabindra Sangeet
> 'Jadi tare nai chini go seki'
> in Abhiman.
> I can't say whether borrowing tunes from other languages can be called
> as plagarisms. What I feel is that if the tune is good it does not matter
> which language it is in. In fact it gives a chance for people who
> otherwise would not have heard the song in a different language to
> really enjoy it when it is recomposed in their own language. In fact
> some songs of Rabindranath have old hindi classical tunes as well as
> some have Western tunes. Are they plagarisms?
> -Aniruddha.
Oh, how convenient? I guess then we should stop all those
Bappi Lahiri bashing on the net as the tune he borrows are
good and gives people who has not heard the tune a chance to
enjoy it. Or, even for the same reason, stop Anand-Milind
bashing for copying Ilyaraja's music.
I like that theory, no concept of copyright laws any where.
Ramesh Hariharan
>Yes, SDB did use the tune of the well known Rabindra Sangeet
> 'Jadi tare nai chini go seki'
>in Abhiman.
> I can't say whether borrowing tunes from other languages can be called
>as plagarisms. What I feel is that if the tune is good it does not matter
>which language it is in. In fact it gives a chance for people who
>otherwise would not have heard the song in a different language to
>really enjoy it when it is recomposed in their own language. In fact
>some songs of Rabindranath have old hindi classical tunes as well as
>some have Western tunes. Are they plagarisms?
Totally disagree .. Just because our favorite MD SDB did the copying
let's not try to justify it by saying that it's "ok" to copy from
another language. After our newsgroup has taken Anand-Milind, Bappi
Lahiri and other altu-faltus to the basket and dunked on them everytime
for not being original, changing our stance on this count all of a
sudden is not logical.
I agree with you fully that copying excellent tunes from other languages
does serve the purpose of being a conduit to the less privileged
sections of the population. The only point is that the movie audio releases
should clearly state that the MD of the song xyz is the original author.
Else it IS plagiarism.
>Aniruddha Dasgupta e-mail: adas...@uoguelph.ca
Ayub Mohammed P910
>
> >andhokarer ei, raatayr shashay
anderi yeh raat ke akhir mein
> >soorjo kayno uTlo na
suraj kyon utha nahin
> >bhorayr paakhi ghum bhagatay
subah ki paanchi neend toDhnay
> >aamai kayno jay daklow na
> >raatayr taara haariyay gachay
raat kay taara kho gaya
> >meghayr kowlay jay nai Thikana
> >poornimayr chaandayr aalow
poonima yeh chaand ki kiran
> >jochona ho-ay kayno uTlo na
> >golaab phoolayr gondho diyay
gulab phool ke sugand sungkay
> >bhulayi jaabay kay-o jaanayna
bhol gayay hai koyi jaanay na
> >golaab kaaTar aGhaat showaychi
gulab kay kaatay ka dard sahkay
> >golaab phool aar josholona
gulab phool aur achcha laga na
> I agree...great job Ayub...could you do us one more favor and give us
> the meanings of the bong version?!:)
It was lot easier to translate to hindi than to english, hence
I have done that conversion. If someone wishes an english
translation, please post and I will try to translate. In the
mean time, I will try to find meaning of the word that I
don't understand.
this is pretty cool, I just realized that even the hindi
translation rhymes. this is my first attempt to translate,
may be I will do few more.
ta-ta
Ayub
Guri
(Ramesh Hariharan) writes:
>
>In article <3l6ve8$7...@ccshst05.cs.uoguelph.ca> adas...@uoguelph.ca
(Aniruddha Dasgupta) writes:
>
>>Yes, SDB did use the tune of the well known Rabindra Sangeet
>> 'Jadi tare nai chini go seki'
>>in Abhiman.
>> I can't say whether borrowing tunes from other languages can be
called
>>as plagarisms.
>Totally disagree .. Just because our favorite MD SDB did the copying
>let's not try to justify it by saying that it's "ok" to copy from
>another language. After our newsgroup has taken Anand-Milind, Bappi
>Lahiri and other altu-faltus to the basket and dunked on them everytime
>for not being original, changing our stance on this count all of a
>sudden is not logical.
> Ramesh Hariharan, Princeton U.
> Chala jaata hoon kisi ki dhun mein dhadakte dil ke tarane liye
> Milan ki masti bhari aankhon mein hazaaron sapane suhane liye
>
===> WAIT A MINUTE, GUYS! I've been watching this argument brew a byte
at a time over the last couple of weeks...and nobody seems to be
pointing out the major difference between these BONG-HINDI songs given
music by THE SAME MD in both languages (and duly credited so in all
albums) and people like Bhappi Lahiri PICKING UP COMPOSITIONS OF OTHER
MDs and crediting themselves...huh..what about that...don't you see the
difference? Where does the question of plagiarism come in when the MD is
the same...and the song is written to the composition by THAT MD in two
different languages by two different lyricists who are credited
accurately as well?!!!
Just my 2.....
guri
Abhay Avachat
: >
: >>Yes, SDB did use the tune of the well known Rabindra Sangeet
: >> 'Jadi tare nai chini go seki'
: >>in Abhiman.
: >> I can't say whether borrowing tunes from other languages can be
: called
: >>as plagarisms.
:
: >Totally disagree .. Just because our favorite MD SDB did the copying
: >let's not try to justify it by saying that it's "ok" to copy from
: >another language. After our newsgroup has taken Anand-Milind, Bappi
: >Lahiri and other altu-faltus to the basket and dunked on them everytime
: >for not being original, changing our stance on this count all of a
: >sudden is not logical.
:
:
: ===> WAIT A MINUTE, GUYS! I've been watching this argument brew a byte
: at a time over the last couple of weeks...and nobody seems to be
: pointing out the major difference between these BONG-HINDI songs given
: music by THE SAME MD in both languages (and duly credited so in all
: albums)
Now, WAIT A MINUTE, Guri ! :-)
The argument is over SDB, a favourite MD for many RMIMers (including
me). In Abhiman, he used a tune for "tere mere milan li ye raina".
I had aksed, whether this should be lebelled as plagiarism, because
the original song in Bengali is __NOT__ by him. It is composed by the
great Robindranath Tagore. Aniruddha Dasgupta gave the original song.
And he argued that, it should not be called as plagiarism. His argument
is not valid, as Ramesh and others have pointed out the fallacy.
I do not remember the great Robindranath getting the credit for this
tune on Abhiman's album. But if it is given, then it is not plagiarism.
Otherwise it _IS_. Even if the MD is SDB. No preferential treatment.
When I heard the Bengali song, the tunes sounded too much similar to say
that SDB drew "inspiration". But there, I seek the help of knowledgeables
to assert something on this account.
I hope, I have made myself clear.
BTW, I had no intention to say anything derogatory about Sachinda.
Just because he has used a couple of "chori"ki tunes here or there,
does not mean his other great compositions are worthless. And I still
remember and agree Rajan's statement that "SDB had a dircect hotline
with Lord Krishna himself". SDB's tunes will always amaze me.
- Abhay.
Hardly a pleasent thread anyway ! For various reasons !!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abhay Avachat Internet : Abhay....@blr.sni.de
Siemens Information Systems Ltd.
B/8 Jangpura B, Mathura Road.
New Delhi 110014. INDIA. Phone : +91 -11 463 1245
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guri
article, too....and I think we're still on interesting grounds....
You wrote:
>wasn't the song 'Jadi tare nai chini go seki' from
>Rabindra Sangeet plagiarized by SDB ... hey ! I am one of the biggest
>SDB fans alive ... but can't be a blind fan :-)
===>agreed...although I'd like to think of this as adaptation of what is
originally a piece comparable to a "CHEEZ" in Hindustani Classical music
done by, say, DVP or Amir Khan and 'adapted' by somebody in a Hindi
Film...and I'm sure plenty of that happened...now, you're using a Rag to
base a piece/song on, and the rendition of the same Rag by somebody else
is quite likely going to have phrases that are quintessential to the
Rag...if those phrases appear in your composition also, regardless of
how much it sounds like the 'original' rendition or cheez, would you be
accused of plagiarism?...I guess the overall quality, LASTING VALUE, and
ingenius instrumentations in Burmans' music makes them stand out by a
mile compared to really mediocre COPIES churned out by the likes of the
B.lahiris!
:) I guess I might sound like a fanatic fan....I really like good stuff
from all the MDs : Madan Mohan, Hemant Kumar, KK himself, S-J, OPN,
Husnlal-Bhagatram, Snehal, Anil Biswas, even 'lesser' MDs like Sonik-Omi
did a great job compared to these guys...one can go on 'n on....
one IS going on'n on..so I'll stop bugging :)
guri bagga [no pun intended :)--]
Aniruddha Dasgupta
: Guri wrote :
: Now, WAIT A MINUTE, Guri ! :-)
: The argument is over SDB, a favourite MD for many RMIMers (including
: me). In Abhiman, he used a tune for "tere mere milan li ye raina".
: I had aksed, whether this should be lebelled as plagiarism, because
: the original song in Bengali is __NOT__ by him. It is composed by the
: great Robindranath Tagore. Aniruddha Dasgupta gave the original song.
: And he argued that, it should not be called as plagiarism. His argument
: is not valid, as Ramesh and others have pointed out the fallacy.
: I do not remember the great Robindranath getting the credit for this
: tune on Abhiman's album. But if it is given, then it is not plagiarism.
: Otherwise it _IS_. Even if the MD is SDB. No preferential treatment.
: When I heard the Bengali song, the tunes sounded too much similar to say
: that SDB drew "inspiration". But there, I seek the help of knowledgeables
: to assert something on this account.
: I hope, I have made myself clear.
: BTW, I had no intention to say anything derogatory about Sachinda.
: Just because he has used a couple of "chori"ki tunes here or there,
: does not mean his other great compositions are worthless. And I still
: remember and agree Rajan's statement that "SDB had a dircect hotline
: with Lord Krishna himself". SDB's tunes will always amaze me.
: - Abhay.
: Hardly a pleasent thread anyway ! For various reasons !!
I find that my labelling of this particular "Abhimaan" song being not a
case of plagarism has sparked off some controversy.Let me make some
comments here. As I have said before that some Rabindrasangeet tunes have
been borrowed from Western songs as well some old hindi classical music.
Many people will call these as plagarisms. Rabindranath as well as SDB
has borrowed "Baul sangeet" - the Bengal folk music for giving music to
some songs. Since these are not their brainchild (I mean not invented by
them) they are also plagarisms by the arguement which some netters have
put forward. I know for sure that Naushad borrowed a tune for one of his
famous songs from a person who used to sing in a corner of the street
where Naushad used to go. I believe that just because Naushad made the
tune famous and known to the outside world does not make him the
originator of the tune. The unknown singer is never credited for the
tune. So again a case of plagarism here!
What one forgets to think for a moment while critisizing is that
Rabindranath has composed thousands of songs but why on earth did SDB
choose that particular tune for "Abhimaan"? I believe that he thought
it would be the best tune that would fit the particular words. He
could have given any tune composed all by himself for this song but
he did not do so (he was never short of his own original
compositions!). I am sure that he did study with a lot of tunes
before doing this "plagarism".
IMHO one should not look for everything original from a MD. The MD
should be responsible for giving a tune which would be liked by the
audience. That is probably why this song is one of my favourites
(In fact I like it more than the original Rabindrasangeet!) as well
the favourite of millions of other Indians.
Aniruddha (still continuing the unpleasant thread!).