The Burmans, Elder vs. Younger
arun...@gmail.com
perspective. With the increasing coteric adulation accorded to the
yonger (RD) Burman, the new generation seems to forget that he was
only second best to the Elder (SD) Burman.
"Rekhte ke ustaad tum hi nahin Ghalib, kehte hain kisi jamaane me koi
Mir bhi tha".
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
Well said.
Not only SDB, but also the other greats of 50s and 60s are far
superior to RDB.
RDB has nothing to show that is better than SDB's 'Guide', "Pyaasa',
Kaagaz Ke Phool', 'Bombai Ka Babu'
'Taxi Driver', 'Chalti Ka Naam Gadi', "Paying Guest', 'Bandini',
'Sharmilee' to name a few.
Regards
Sukesh
UVR
No comments on the first para of your post, but I *will* say
that when Ghalib said this:
reKhte ke tumheeN ustaad naheeN ho, Ghaalib
kahte haiN agle zamaane meN koi Meer bhi thaa
I am not sure he was really admitting to being "second best"
(to Meer).
-UVR.
irfan
I met Majroh Sultanpuri, Kaifi Aazmi and Ali Sardar Jafary in 1993
when the trio came to Pakistan. That conversation lasted for more
than
an hour. When I said to Majroh that although Burmanda could not
even speak Urdu properly, he was an extra-ordinary Composer,he
replied that Burmanda had very nice sense of Poetry. And
immediately
comparing, he said that R.D. Burman did not understand the Poetry.
Regards,
Irfan
Niketan
that his greatest
hits were with R.D Burman. He had successful scores with Burman Sr,
but he and
Pancham were simply magic together.
Cheers
Niketan
atu...@yahoo.com
R.D's number comes far far below the names of great composers like
Anilda, SDB,MadanMohan, Salilda, Khaiyyam, Jaideo, Naushad,
OP,SJ,Hemantkumar,Ravishankar and other such great masters ( not
necessarily in the given order) RD has given some great music but the
quantity of his worst numbers is far more than his number of good /
better compositions. Many RD fans claim that SD had used some of RD's
compositions in Pyaasa / Aaradhana and I fully agree with them because
they lack SDB magic. In turn my gut feeling says that RD's best
composition "Ghar aaja (Chhote Nawab) must be a gift from the father
to the son.
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
> that his greatest
> hits were with R.D Burman.
Majrooh's greatest hits with *RDB*?? Big news to me.
Sanjeev
Abhijit
> On Jan 7, 10:47 pm, arunk...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Public memory being short, it is important to maintain proper
> > perspective. With the increasing coteric adulation accorded to the
> > yonger (RD) Burman, the new generation seems to forget that he was
> > only second best to the Elder (SD) Burman.
>
> > "Rekhte ke ustaad tum hi nahin Ghalib, kehte hain kisi jamaane me koi
> > Mir bhi tha".
>
> R.D's number comes far far below the names of great composers like
> Anilda, SDB,MadanMohan, Salilda, Khaiyyam, Jaideo, Naushad,
> OP,SJ,Hemantkumar,Ravishankar and other such great masters (
Ravishankar? I would like to know his credentials as HFM composer that
makes him better than RD. Not that I agree with the rest of your list.
Abhijit
wrote:
Using superlatives like "greatest" often dilutes a claim. But Majrooh-
RDB combination did produce many hits including all Nasir Hussain
films.
emanuelle...@gmail.com
what about strobelbeats?
Asif
Let's count Majrooh's ALL hits with all major music directors with
whom he worked. Criteria and source of 'ALL hits': At least a decent
run of at least 1-2 songs (from a single film) in weekly shows of
Binaca Geet Mala, and/or memorable run in public awareness.
1. Naushad: Shahjahan (1946), Andaz (1949), Saathi (1968), Taangewaala
(1972) = Total 4
2. O.P. Nayyar: Aar Paar (1954), Mangu (1954), Mr. and Mrs. 55 (1955),
Bhaagam Bhaag (1956), C.I.D. (1956), Hum Sab Chor Hain (1956), Tumsa
Nahin Dekha (1957), 12 O 'Clock (1958), Kabhi Andhera Kabhi Ujaala
(1958), Mujrim (1958), Phir Wohi Dil Laya Hoon (1964), Mere Sanam
(1965) = Total 12
3. S.D. Burman: Nau Do Gyarah (1957), Paying Guest (1957), Chalti Ka
Naam Gaadi (1958), Kala Pani (1958), Laajwanti (1958), Sitaaron Se
Aage (1958), Solvaan Saal (1958), Sujata (1959), Bambai Ka Babu
(1960), Manzil (1960), Baat Ek Raat Ki (1962), Dr. Vidya (1962), Teen
Deviyan (1965), Jewel Thief (1967), Talash (1969), Abhimaan (1973),
Phagun (1973), Sagina (1974) = Total 18
4. Madan Mohan: Baaghi (1953), Aakhri Dao (1958), Night Club (1958),
Akeli Mat Jaiyyo (1963), Chirag (1969), Dastak (1970) = Total 6
5. Anil Biswas: Fareb (1953), Waaris (1954), Heer (1956), Paisa Hi
Paisa (1956) = Total 4
6. Khayyam: Footpath (1953), Dhobi Doctor (1954), Mohabbat Isko Kehte
Hain (1965) = Total 3
7. Roshan: Chandni Chowk (1954), Aarti (1962), Bheegi Raat (1965),
Dadi Maa (1966), Mamta (1966) = Total 5
8. Husnlal Bhagatram: Shama Parwaana (1954) = Total 1
9. Hemant Kumar: Ek Hi Raasta (1956) = Total 1
10. Salil Chowdhary: Apraadhi Kaun (1957), Maaya (1961) = Total 2
11. N. Datta: Mr. X (1957), Jaalsaaz (1959) = Total 2
12. Ravi: Dilli Ka Thug (1958), Ghar Sansaar (1958), Tu Nahin Aur Sahi
(1960), China Town (1962) = Total 4
13. Vasant Desai: Ardhaangini (1959) = Total 1
14. Usha Khanna: Dil Deke Dekho (1959) = Total 1
15. Chitragupt: Kaali Topi Laal Roomaal (1959), Baraat (1960), Hum
Matwaale Naujawaan (1961), Opera House (1961), Burma Road (1962), Main
Shaadi Karne Chala (1962), Ek Raaz (1963), Ganga Ki Lehren (1964),
Aakashdeep (1965), Oonche Log (1965), Pardesi (1970) = Total 11
16. C. Ramchandra: Sarhad (1960) = Total 1
17. Kishore Kumar: Jhumroo (1961) = Total 1
18. Laxmikant-Pyarelal: Dosti (1964), Dillagi (1966), Mere Laal
(1966), Patthar Ke Sanam (1967), Shagird (1967), Bahaaron Ki Manzil
(1968), Mere Hamdam Mere Dost (1968), Dharti Kahe Pukaar Ke (1969),
Pyaasi Shaam (1969), Waapas (1969), Abhinetri (1970), Jal Bin Machhli
Nritya Bin Bijli (1971), Ek Nazar (1972), Anokhi Ada (1973), Imtihaan
(1974), Anaadi (1975), Dus Nambari (1976) = Total 17
19. Kalyanji-Anandji: Ishaara (1964) = Total 1
20. R.D. Burman: Teesri Manzil (1966), Bahaaron Ke Sapne (1967),
Abhilasha (1968), Pyaar Ka Mausam (1969), Ehsaan (1970), Raaton Ka
Raja (1970), Buddha Mil Gaya (1971), Caravan (1971), Mela (1971), Dil
Ka Raaja (1972), Do Chor (1972), Gomti Ke Kinaare (1972), Mere Jeevan
Saathi (1972), Raakhi Aur Hathkadi (1972), Rampur Ka Lakshman (1972),
Samaadhi (1972), Savera (1972), Anamika (1973), Bandhe Haath (1973),
Do Phool (1973), Double Cross (1973), Daulat Ke Dushman (1973), Yaadon
Ki Baraat (1973), Benaam (1974), Goonj (1974), Khote Sikkey (1974),
Madhosh (1974), Phir Kab Milogi (1974), Zehreela Insaan (1974), Dharam
Karam (1975), Kala Sona (1975), Chandi Sona (1977), Hum Kisise Kam
Naheen (1977), Heeralal Pannalal (1978), Naukar (1979), Aanchal
(1980), Bulandi (1980), Dhan Daulat (1980), Jal Mahal (1980), Phir
Wohi Raat (1980), Jail Yaatra (1981), Kaalia (1981), Zamaane Ko
Dikhaana Hai (1981), Bade Dilwaala (1982), Jhutha Sach (1984), Manzil
Manzil (1984), Sitamgar (1984), Savere Waali Gaadi (1985), Zabardast
(1985), Inaam Dus Hazaar (1987), Gurudev (1993) = Total 51
21. Ghulam Mohammed: Pakeezah (1971) = Total 1
22. Rajesh Roshan: Kunwaara Baap (1974), Udhaar Ka Sindoor (1976),
Ginny Aur Johnny (1976), Doosara Aadmi (1977), Jai Vijay (1977), Janta
Hawaldar (1979), Kala Patthar (1979) = Total 7
23. Basu-Manohari: Sabse Bada Rupaiyya (1976) = Total 1
24. Vanraj Bhatia: Bhumika (1977) = Total 1
25. Hemant Bhosle: Taxi Taxie (1977) = Total 1
26. Anand-Milind: Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak (1988), maybe a couple more =
Total 3-4
27. Jatin-Lalit: Jo Jeeta Wohi Sikandar (1992), plus a couple more =
Total 3-5
I have not included RDB-Majrooh films, like Parchhaiyaan (1972) and
Hifaazat (1973), both of which had at least 1 brilliant song, because
they sank without trace then and only a few fans might appreciate them
today. Anyway, number 51 (of hit films that RDB and Majrooh did
together) is there for you and all to see. Also, notice how RDB
sustained Majrooh's career in the '70s and '80s, when Majrooh hardly
worked with anyone else.
I am also surprised by Majoorh's statement (given to Irfan Sahab) that
RDB did not understand poetry. If he indeed said it, I would say he
was being thankless. Anyway, what tough poetry he wrote that RDB
could not understand? In an interview in Filmfare in the early '90s
he praised RDB for understanding his poetry/ghazals and taking it to
masses (I will be visiting India soon and will try to bring back a
copy of that interview if I can find it in TOI archive in Mumbai). He
specifically mentioned two of his poetry/ghazals in this context:
'diiwaanaa mujhasaa nahii.n' (Teesri Manzil, 1966) and 'churaa liyaa
hai tumane jo dil ko' (Yaadon Ki Baraat, 1973).
He might have been talking thoughtlessly with Irfan Sahab, I
suppose.
Asif
Surjit Singh
Asif wrote:
> On Jan 8, 11:34 am, Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> <sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 8, 12:19 am, Niketan <niketan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
>>> that his greatest
>>> hits were with R.D Burman.
>> Majrooh's greatest hits with *RDB*?? Big news to me.
>>
>> Sanjeev
>
> Let's count Majrooh's ALL hits with all major music directors with
> whom he worked. Criteria and source of 'ALL hits': At least a decent
> run of at least 1-2 songs (from a single film) in weekly shows of
> Binaca Geet Mala, and/or memorable run in public awareness.
Great job, Asif! Now let us also get the total number of films that
Majrooh did with each of them to get some proportion.
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html
Artnut
"Asif" <alvi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87fe158e-1aed-44b4...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Hi Asif sahab,
Is it possible for anyone to visit TOI and ask for any archive as you imply
or does one have to know someone in the TOI to access the archives? If its a
yes to the former, may I know how does one go about it?
Thanks in advance.
Arty
kcp
> He might have been talking thoughtlessly with Irfan Sahab, I
> suppose.
Or just mixed up RD and SD's name ;)
Ok ok cool down Ritu...I was just kidding :-)
Asif saab...Chhodo beqaar ki baaton mein kahin beet na jaaye
rainaaa :-)
KCP
atu...@yahoo.com
Ravishankar's film Anuradha has made him immortal for his
contribution to HFM
Archisman Mozumder
> On Jan 7, 10:47 pm, arunk...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Public memory being short, it is important to maintain proper
> > perspective. With the increasing coteric adulation accorded to the
> > yonger (RD) Burman, the new generation seems to forget that he was
> > only second best to the Elder (SD) Burman.
>
> > "Rekhte ke ustaad tum hi nahin Ghalib, kehte hain kisi jamaane me koi
> > Mir bhi tha".
>
> R.D's number comes far far below the names of great composers like
> Anilda, SDB,MadanMohan, Salilda, Khaiyyam, Jaideo, Naushad,
> OP,SJ,Hemantkumar,Ravishankar and other such great masters ( not
> necessarily in the given order)
Some other names that are missed out in this elite list are:
Roshanlal Nagrath, Chitragupt, S N Tripathi, Sajjad Hussain, Hansraj
Behl, Iqbal Qureshi, Sardar Malik etc.
One must also not miss out on Ali Akbar Khan, Timirbaran, Alla Rakhha
& Vilayat Khan
>RD has given some great music but the
> quantity of his worst numbers is far more than his number of good /
> better compositions. Many RD fans claim that SD had used some of RD's
> compositions in Pyaasa / Aaradhana and I fully agree with them because
> they lack SDB magic.
Thanks for letting us know that songs like 'jaane kya tu-ne kahi',
'aaj sajan mohe ang lagaa le', 'kora kaagaz tha yeh man mera', 'jaane
woh kaise log they', 'chanda hai tuu', etc. 'lack SDB's magic'. RD
fans also claim that SD pinched a tune or two from his son in
Funtoosh. It'll be good to know about your opinion on whether Funtoosh
too, 'lacks SDB's magic'.
>In turn my gut feeling says that RD's best
> composition "Ghar aaja (Chhote Nawab) must be a gift from the father
> to the son.
Some more can be added in this category. 'rainaa beeti jaaye', 'kuchh
to log kahenge', 'o ganga maiyya', 'bada natkhat hain', 'jiya na laage
mora', some songs of Aandhi, Kinara, Khushboo, etc. In fact, RD's
career & suuccess rate started plummeting downwards after the demise
of SD in the latter half of the 70-s.
(I must hasten to add here, in all honesty, that there are indeed a
lot of tunes that RD has used in his films that are originally,
composed by SD. RD used to candidly mention that he used 'baap ka
maal'.
Regards.
Niketan
I just made that statement with a gut feel - but many thanks for
putting the actual numbers. It is also interesting that Majrooh did so
less work with other MD's of the seventies like LP, KA, Rajesh
Roshan, Bappi, etc. HE has had fits with Burman Sr and OP Nayyar
Regards the Majrooh SD Burman combo, what was the fate of movies like
Sitaaron Se
Aage (1958), Solvaan Saal (1958), Manzil (1960), Baat Ek Raat Ki
(1962), Dr. Vidya (1962), Teen
Deviyan (1965)
Niketan
unintentional humor.
Niketan
> > Asif- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Srinivas Ganti
> Asif-saab
> I just made that statement with a gut feel - but many thanks for
> putting the actual numbers. It is also interesting that Majrooh did so
> less work with other MD's of the seventies like LP, KA, Rajesh
> Roshan, Bappi, etc. HE has had fits with Burman Sr and OP Nayyar
> Regards the Majrooh SD Burman combo, what was the fate of movies like
> Sitaaron Se
> Aage (1958), Solvaan Saal (1958), Manzil (1960), Baat Ek Raat Ki
> (1962), Dr. Vidya (1962), Teen
> Deviyan (1965)
> The others are well known - whether they were hits or flops -
When I consider a song as popular I strictly don't go by Binaca Geet
Mala
as that is not a sign of longevity. The SDB movies that you mention
had great music in that the songs had lot of radio play in the mid
90's
when I was a regular listener. They continued to be memorable 35-40
years after their release.
Solvaa Saal had the binaca geet mala topper of that year
"hai apna dil to awara".
"na tum hamen jaano" from Baat Ek raat Ki featured among
the "other hits" in geet mala.
"pawan diwani" from Dr. Vidya had its fair share of radio play
and same can be said about Manzil songs
"yaad aa gai vo nashili nigahen" and "chupke se mile
pyaase pyaase"
If we strictly go by geet mala countdowns even Sitaron Se Aagey
had a geet mala entry with Rafi's "o zara ruk jaa".
Almost all songs of Teen Deviyan were popular and atleast 2 songs
made it to the geet mala parade.
Srinivas.
Vinay
> Asif wrote:
> > On Jan 8, 11:34 am, Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> > <sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jan 8, 12:19 am, Niketan <niketan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
> >>> that his greatest
> >>> hits were with R.D Burman.
> >> Majrooh's greatest hits with *RDB*?? Big news to me.
>
> >> Sanjeev
>
> > Let's count Majrooh's ALL hits with all major music directors with
> > whom he worked. Criteria and source of 'ALL hits': At least a decent
> > run of at least 1-2 songs (from a single film) in weekly shows of
> > Binaca Geet Mala, and/or memorable run in public awareness.
>
> Great job, Asif! Now let us also get the total number of films that
> Majrooh did with each of them to get some proportion.
>
>
Surjit ji:
Why don't you do the exercise and enlighten us? It's high time RD-
bashers stop talking through their hats and start looking into
facts ;).
Besides how does the proportion matter to the current discussion?
"Most hits" is most hits.
And still if you want to play by the proportion logic here, you will
end up choosing between Hemant Bhosle or Jatin-Lalit (100% hit ratio)
and RDB (70% hit ratio) as Majrooh's most-hit partners. You don't want
to do that.
Of course, as the last recourse you may want to bring in the
"greatness" card. But humbly speaking, sir, pushing the discussion
into the subjective arena of "greatness" is not going to help at all.
We may never agree to the specifics there (Just FYI, I personally
consider at least 40 of the Majrooh-Pancham scores listed below and
some more not listed here "great" or in other words my favorite). So
just stick to the facts.
And the facts speak for themselves. Don't they Sanjeev?
Vinay
> Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Vinay
Okay, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. 18 + 5 = 23. Let's cut 5 from RDB too (just to
make you happy). 51 - 5 = 46. The last I knew, 23 was still only half
of 46.
Vinay
> Srinivas.
Surjit Singh
Vinay wrote:
> On Jan 9, 1:37 am, Surjit Singh <surjit_si...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Asif wrote:
>>> On Jan 8, 11:34 am, Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>>> <sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 8, 12:19 am, Niketan <niketan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
>>>>> that his greatest
>>>>> hits were with R.D Burman.
>>>> Majrooh's greatest hits with *RDB*?? Big news to me.
>>>> Sanjeev
>>> Let's count Majrooh's ALL hits with all major music directors with
>>> whom he worked. Criteria and source of 'ALL hits': At least a decent
>>> run of at least 1-2 songs (from a single film) in weekly shows of
>>> Binaca Geet Mala, and/or memorable run in public awareness.
>> Great job, Asif! Now let us also get the total number of films that
>> Majrooh did with each of them to get some proportion.
>>
>>
>
> Surjit ji:
>
> Why don't you do the exercise and enlighten us? It's high time RD-
Given Asif's assumptions he has proved a point.
If I do the exercise of counting the number of greatest hits of Majrooh
with RDB, I will have to include a Q-factor. I will assign the Q-factor
as follows: Q = 1.0, 0.8, 0.5, 0.2, 0.01 to the decades of of thirties,
forties, fifties, sixties and seventies, respectively :) So RDB fans
should just ignore me and people like me :)
I am not sure if Asif has considered a Q-factor based on ranking within
the Binaca sopans. Surely a song at the top and at the 30th level are
not the same.
Asif
>
> Given Asif's assumptions he has proved a point.
>
> If I do the exercise of counting the number of greatest hits of Majrooh
> with RDB, I will have to include a Q-factor. I will assign the Q-factor
> as follows: Q = 1.0, 0.8, 0.5, 0.2, 0.01 to the decades of of thirties,
> forties, fifties, sixties and seventies, respectively :) So RDB fans
> should just ignore me and people like me :)
>
> I am not sure if Asif has considered a Q-factor based on ranking within
> the Binaca sopans. Surely a song at the top and at the 30th level are
> not the same.
>
I did consider quality too, but not as much, because the discussion is
mainly about hit music. Just in case anyone debates quality of those
51 RDB films, let me say that all those have excellent quality for
me. And when I said 'and/or memorable run in public awareness', I
meant quality and/or appeal of those songs that did not make it to
even weekly runs of Binaca Geet Mala but regaled listeners all the
same then or later or both - this clarification is for Ganti. As for
Binaca Geet Mala, you or anyone else cannot simply dismiss it as not
"reliable indicator of popularity". If anything, the show invites
debate about the rating of songs, not about rating them at all. All
those songs, yes all of them, that made it to even weekly shows were
hits no matter how much you like to refuse to accept it. Plus, Binaca
Geet Mala is a documented and widely accepted resource of popularity
of HFM, so I love to use it for statistical purpose wherever I can.
Regarding your "proportion" suggestion, I was going to say the same
thing that Vinay already said - the suggestion is futile here.
Anyway, I would still like to please you. Only 6 music directors
stand out for delivering hits with Majrooh: OPN, SDB, Chitragupt, LP,
RDB, and Rajesh Roshan. So I would consider only them for your
suggestion. For OPN, I guess I eliminated about 6 films (so total
18), for SDB about 6 (so total 24), for Chitragupta about 6 (so total
17), for LP about 8 (so total 25), for RDB about 14 (so total 65), and
for Rajesh Roshan about 3 (so total 10). Here is the math of
proportions:
OPN: Total 18, Hits 12 = 67% Hits
SDB: Total 24, Hits 18 = 75% Hits
Chitragupt: Total 17, Hits 11 = 65% Hits
LP: Total 25, Hits 17 = 68% Hits
RDB: Total 65, Hits 51 = 78% Hits
Rajesh Roshan: Total 10, Hits 7 = 70% Hits
Now it is your turn to make sense out of the above proportion
data :-) And kindly do not forget to give some weight to such a large
total number of films RDB-Majrooh did and still gave such a large
number of hits.
By the way, I would love to know how you devised your Q-factor and all
those values for each decade. It is a long standing curiosity that I
want to get rid of now, for example, how would you compare 'chaa.Nd
meraa dil' (Hum Kisise Kam Naheen, 1977) with 'jab dil hii TuuT
gayaa' (Shahjahan, 1946)? Why one song is superior to the other for
you and how? Why Q maybe 0.01 for 'chaa.Nd meraa dil' for you and why
it maybe 0.8 for 'jab dil hii TuuT gayaa' for you again? Let me
know. Thanks.
Asif
Srinivas Ganti
Well well well. I was only trying to elaborate on the albums that
Niketan
questioned about. It wasn't my intention to be drawn into a numbers
game :))
SDB had 2 binaca geet mala toppers with Majrooh.
haal kaisa hai janaab ka
hai apna dil to awara
Srinivas.
Asif
> Hi Asif sahab,
>
> Is it possible for anyone to visit TOI and ask for any archive as you imply
> or does one have to know someone in the TOI to access the archives? If its a
> yes to the former, may I know how does one go about it?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Arty
Both works: personal contact there and public access. When I visited
there in 2005, I had both.
Archive is open to public: just go to TOI building on Dr. D.N. Road
(across Victoria Terminus), sign up at front desk and tell them you
want to see Filmfare, Illustrated Weekly of India, TOI newspaper,
Dharmyug, etc. They will tell you to go to second floor. Up to this
point, everything is easy. The hard part is talking with babus
sitting on second floor and asking them for access to the archive. In
all likelihood, they will treat you as a mere worm at their feet that
they will simply ignore, so be patient, talk sweetly with them, show
respect to them, and be polite but firm. They will then relent. FYI:
at that time they had only Illustrated Weekly of India and some other
magazine (or newspaper) on microfilm, nothing else. Not sure about
the status today, but they will let you browse only the stuff on
microfilm, nothing else. You can print anything from microfilms. On
second floor you will pay for your visit and will receive a receipt of
payment. I paid Rs 100 for about 3 hours. I think it was just a
day's charge, not by hour, not sure though.
Since Filmfare was not available on microfilm then, the babu simply
refused to even admit the magazine was right there in the office.
"Yahaan koi Filmfare naheen hai, hamne to usko Pune ke ek office mein
rakha hai," he told me. I refused to believe him and used my
'connection', so he relented and asked another babu to take me to a
cold storage where they kept all copies of Filmfare in binders (about
25 copies bound in in binder, so it means 1 binder for each year -
Filmfare was fortnightly then). I asked the babu to bring out a few
binders for me and I browsed through them in the presence of the first
babu. When I finished I called the second babu again and went with
him back to the cold storage to bring out another set of binders.
Thus I spent about 2 hours looking through copies of 1950s, 60s, and
70s. Unfortunately, the first babu refused to let me photocopy
anything - no amount of pleading and even my subtle hints of bribing
him worked.
So this time I am going to take my digital camera with me, as
suggested by Vinay. Hope I can photography interesting pages.
Actually, this time I am also going to try to meet the Filmfare editor
to convince him to publish all issues of Filmfare on CD-ROM; I am
willing to donate money on this project.
Try to find someone whom you knows there. Good luck.
Asif
Asif
> I just made that statement with a gut feel - but many thanks for
> putting the actual numbers. It is also interesting that Majrooh did so
> less work with other MD's of the seventies like LP, KA, Rajesh
> Roshan, Bappi, etc. HE has had fits with Burman Sr and OP Nayyar
> Regards the Majrooh SD Burman combo, what was the fate of movies like
> Sitaaron Se
> Aage (1958), Solvaan Saal (1958), Manzil (1960), Baat Ek Raat Ki
> (1962), Dr. Vidya (1962), Teen
> Deviyan (1965)
> The others are well known - whether they were hits or flops -
>
All the above films, plus Laajwanti, Bombai Ka Babu, and Phagun,
flopped at the box-office. Out of these that you mention above, only
Teen Deviyan was a musical hit. All others (out of your list) had
only 1-2 hit songs. In fact, Ganti posted few years ago a link to an
interesting website that listed box-office record of hit films.
Search for his post on this forum. I am also looking for that post by
him.
Asif
Vinay
Abhijit
Take 2 more from me -- Godan and Meera. Yet can these 3 move him above
RDB who has almost 300 films to his credit and a lot of them
containing good scores?
Asif
> > > Ravishankar? I would like to know his credentials as HFM composer that
> > > makes him better than RD. Not that I agree with the rest of your list.
>
> > Ravishankar's film Anuradha has made him immortal for his
> > contribution to HFM
>
> Take 2 more from me -- Godan and Meera. Yet can these 3 move him above
> RDB who has almost 300 films to his credit and a lot of them
> containing good scores?
Abhijit, please do not take this guy's posts seriously. He has a
habit of giving arbitrary ratings to music personalities without
thinking anything at all about them or their work, e.g. gems like 'he
is 99th in this list and 57th in that list'. Ha!
Asif
Sorry, I did not mean Atul to whom you (Abhijit) responded, but the
other guy to whom Atul had responded (without thinking, of course,
just like that guy).
Srinivas Ganti
It was http://www.ibosnetwork.com
That doesn't list the records of too many movies esp in the 50's and
60's.
The box office returns quite a few are not available and they are just
listed as NA in alphabetical order.
The original post referred to "hit songs" and not hit movies.
Hit songs doesn't necessarily mean a hit movie and vice versa.
Srinivas.
Asif
> On Jan 9, 12:54 pm, Asif <alvi.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 9, 5:59 am, Niketan <niketan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Asif-saab
> > > I just made that statement with a gut feel - but many thanks for
> > > putting the actual numbers. It is also interesting that Majrooh did so
> > > less work with other MD's of the seventies like LP, KA, Rajesh
> > > Roshan, Bappi, etc. HE has had fits with Burman Sr and OP Nayyar
> > > Regards the Majrooh SD Burman combo, what was the fate of movies like
> > > Sitaaron Se
> > > Aage (1958), Solvaan Saal (1958), Manzil (1960), Baat Ek Raat Ki
> > > (1962), Dr. Vidya (1962), Teen
> > > Deviyan (1965)
> > > The others are well known - whether they were hits or flops -
>
> > All the above films, plus Laajwanti, Bombai Ka Babu, and Phagun,
> > flopped at the box-office. Out of these that you mention above, only
> > Teen Deviyan was a musical hit. All others (out of your list) had
> > only 1-2 hit songs. In fact, Ganti posted few years ago a link to an
> > interesting website that listed box-office record of hit films.
> > Search for his post on this forum. I am also looking for that post by
> > him.
>
> > Asif
>
>
> That doesn't list the records of too many movies esp in the 50's and
> 60's.
> The box office returns quite a few are not available and they are just
> listed as NA in alphabetical order.
>
> The original post referred to "hit songs" and not hit movies.
> Hit songs doesn't necessarily mean a hit movie and vice versa.
>
> Srinivas.
Niketan clearly asked about the fate of "movies" - read his post
again. Plus, I listed hit "albums", so why would he ask about "hit
songs"?
Srinivas Ganti
I am referring to his initial post where focus is on hit songs.
"
I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
that his greatest
hits were with R.D Burman. He had successful scores with Burman Sr,
but he and
Pancham were simply magic together.
Cheers
Niketan
"
Srinivas Ganti
> If I do the exercise of counting the number of greatest hits of Majrooh
> with RDB, I will have to include a Q-factor. I will assign the Q-factor
> as follows: Q = 1.0, 0.8, 0.5, 0.2, 0.01 to the decades of of thirties,
> forties, fifties, sixties and seventies, respectively :) So RDB fans
> should just ignore me and people like me :)
> I am not sure if Asif has considered a Q-factor based on ranking within
> the Binaca sopans. Surely a song at the top and at the 30th level are
> not the same.
That's a valid point . Also he is giving equal weightage
to a track that has 1-2 hit / memorable songs with tracks that
have several hit / memorable songs.
I have a completely different Q factor to evaluate a soundtrack.
You go to a restaurant order Roti, Malai Kofta, and Rasmalai.
You love Malai Kofta, and wonder, "That is so delicious. How come
I didn't know abt this place before?" And you put a piece of
Rasmalai and it has a funny garlic smell leaving a very
bad taste in your mouth. An RD track is just like that.
Bad songs more than nullify the good ones with a few exceptions
like Mere Jeevan Saathi.
In SD's case, the percent of bad songs is much less
giving a feel good affect. And its sprinkled with a
fair number of memorable songs that will elevate
the overall experience.
To quantify this I put forth what I will in future refer to as
"Golfers Guide to Music".
Remeber that in golf, the lower the score the better.
Memorable songs get negative scores and bad songs
get positive scores. Average gets 0.
Lets evaluate paying guest.
chand phir nilka - eagle ( -2)
mana janaab ne pukara nahin - birdie (-1)
o nigahen mastana - birdie (-1)
chhoD do aanchal - birdie (-1)
chupke chupke - par (0)
haaye haaye haaye ye nigaahen - par (0)
gaye ghabraake mil - par (0)
Overall score -5 or 5 under par.
Srinivas.
Asif
I did not respond to his original post, but to this post (note
"movies"):
sm0...@gmail.com
> On Jan 8, 11:34 am, Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
> <sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 8, 12:19 am, Niketan <niketan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
> > > that his greatest
> > > hits were with R.D Burman.
>
> > Majrooh's greatest hits with *RDB*?? Big news to me.
>
> > Sanjeev
>
> Let's count Majrooh's ALL hits with all major music directors with
> whom he worked. Criteria and source of 'ALL hits': At least a decent
> run of at least 1-2 songs (from a single film) in weekly shows of
> Binaca Geet Mala, and/or memorable run in public awareness.
>
> 1. Naushad: Shahjahan (1946), Andaz (1949),
No need to read the list further. The above is enough to prove that
Sanjeev was right in that Majrooh's greatest hits were not with RDB!
<--------redundant list deleted------->
> I am also surprised by Majoorh's statement (given to Irfan Sahab) that
> RDB did not understand poetry. If he indeed said it, I would say he
> was being thankless.
I had read similar views expressed by Majrooh earlier as well. And I
don't believe he was being "thankless." He was trying to compare the
two Burmans - one understood poetry but not the language, the other
understood the language but not poetry. It is also true that RDB
wasn't as particular about good poetry/lyrics compared to the other
(especially senior) MDs. Afterall, he liked working with Gulzar! :-)
And has a lot of films with Anand Babu.
> He might have been talking thoughtlessly with Irfan Sahab, I
> suppose.
On the contrary, I found Majrooh's statement very perceptive. It
explains SDB's success despite being poor at Urdu/Hindi and the
decline in the quality of lyrics when RDB, LP, etc. ruled.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> Asif
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> I did not respond to his original post, but to this post (note
> "movies"):
Are movies like Raton Ka Raja, Dil Ka Raja, Phir Kab Milogi, Madhosh,
Jhutha Sach, etc. regarded as "hits"? Even a relatively better-known
and higher-grade (?) movie like Bulandi tanked in Bombay, IIRC.
C
ani...@gmail.com
> > > Ravishankar? I would like to know his credentials as HFM composer that
> > > makes him better than RD. Not that I agree with the rest of your list.
>
> > Ravishankar's film Anuradha has made him immortal for his
> > contribution to HFM
>
> Take 2 more from me -- Godan and Meera. Yet can these 3 move him above
> RDB who has almost 300 films to his credit and a lot of them
>
An unqualified, unequivocal "YES" - far above RDB! Include 'neecha
nagar' in that list as well...
I really don't understand what number of songs composed or number of
"hits" has to do with quality. I love several RDB compositions but
very few, if any at all, will compare favourably with anything Ravi
Shankar composed for the above movies - IMO.
Cheers
kumar
Hi folks....this SDB-RDB debate is interesting. I think both are
great in their own right. And this could be the only father-son
composers where the talent of the son is matching that of the father.
Take other father-son composers. Roshan-Rajesh Roshan, Chitragupt-
Anand-Milind, Sardar Malik- Anu Malik, Kalyanji-Viju Shah, Ilayaraja-
Karthik Raja, Yuvan Shankar Raja and R.K.Shekhar- A.R Rehman. Except
in the case of last mentioned, father is greater as a composer than
the son in all other cases. In the case of last pair, son towers over
the father.
Kumar
Artnut
"Asif" <alvi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7eaa96d0-7f7a-4074...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Hi Asif sahab,
Bahot bahot shukriya for the info. Quite some years ago, TOI would carry a
small section "From the Archives- 100yrs ago" on its op-ed page but was
discontinued for some reasons, although I think Hindustan Times (HT) still
carries it as "Today-75yrs ago"
I often wondered then how do they manage to stock the whole stuff because in
a month we often collect lot of raddi. Then I got to know about the storage
on microfilm. your info about some babus on the 2nd floor of TOI comes as a
shock to me because the TOI, ideally feels everything should be goodygoody
with its emphasis on laissez faire and governance without redtapism or
bureaucracy!
Regards,
Arty
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Take other father-son composers. Roshan-Rajesh Roshan, Chitragupt-
> Anand-Milind, Sardar Malik- Anu Malik, Kalyanji-Viju Shah, Ilayaraja-
> Karthik Raja, Yuvan Shankar Raja and R.K.Shekhar- A.R Rehman. Except
> in the case of last mentioned, father is greater as a composer than
> the son in all other cases.
If you do the "numbers" for Chitragupt vs. sons, Roshan vs. son,
Sardar Malik vs. son - as Asif has done for SDB vs RDB - the results
might be, um, interesting. I am sure Anu Malik must have delivered
more box-office hits or even chart-toppers than his father. Rajesh
Roshan might also score above his dad in this regard.
C
Asif
> > 1. Naushad: Shahjahan (1946), Andaz (1949),
>
> No need to read the list further. The above is enough to prove that
> Sanjeev was right in that Majrooh's greatest hits were not with RDB!
>
> <--------redundant list deleted------->
>
There you go again, refusing to see beyond Naushad (incidentally the
first entry in the list)! And why drag the poor Sanjeev into your
perverted pot of prejudice? Let him prove first what you think is
'enough', and then back him. The fact that I listed Naushad's albums
with Majrooh in the list clearly shows my objectivity in judging hit/
good music. And the fact that you still refuse to see anything beyond
Naushad proves your ignorance, prejudice, or stupidity, or all three.
Passing a seemingly educated sentence like "one understood poetry but
not the language, the other understood but not the poetry" (but
actually a stupid statement) off as wise saying again is not going to
help you. You need to prove it with stats/examples. You seem to talk
as if you were a personal advisor to the Burmans or their family guru,
who knew their hearts and minds very well. While SDB's apparent lack
of knowledge of Hindi/Urdu is well known, I would be interested in
access to examples/proofs of RDB's lack of understanding of Majrooh's
poetry. Prove it with stats/examples or escape this debate without
answering my questions like you did last time with the 'pizza ki boo'
debate.
To help you, I would suggest that you first dine on Hyderabadi
biryaani, grab your favorite musical instruments that your Naushad
used and compose a few Majrooh's poetries that you think RDB
mishandled, and then come back and show us those tunes.
> > I am also surprised by Majoorh's statement (given to Irfan Sahab) that
> > RDB did not understand poetry. If he indeed said it, I would say he
> > was being thankless.
>
> I had read similar views expressed by Majrooh earlier as well. And I
> don't believe he was being "thankless." He was trying to compare the
> two Burmans - one understood poetry but not the language, the other
> understood the language but not poetry. It is also true that RDB
> wasn't as particular about good poetry/lyrics compared to the other
> (especially senior) MDs. Afterall, he liked working with Gulzar! :-)
> And has a lot of films with Anand Babu.
>
In fact, I have a problem with today's journalists or music lovers who
talk/interview with music personalities. They just pose questions and
gleefully accept answers as divine words; they never question music
personalities' answers. If I were in Irfan Sahab's place, I would
have talked with Majrooh thus:
Me: But you worked with RDB in about 65 films, and 51 had hit music.
Then what poetry of yours he could not understand and why you kept
working with him until 1993?
Majrooh: [Cites a couple of examples that never made it to the films]
Me: But it occasionally happened with every MD-Lyricist team. A poem
does not fit into a MD's understanding of his own tune, so it never
evolves into a song. Why generalize RDB's knowledge of poetry with
these couple of anti-examples?
Majrooh: [Defending himself, cites a couple of examples that made it
to the films]
Me: It happened occasionally too - a MD did not grasp the full meaning
of a few words or an entire sentence, but he still set it to an
excellent tune. RDB was not an Urdu poet like you, but he still set
some of your sublime poetry, like 'tumane mujhe dekhaa' (Teesri
Manzil, 1966), 'aao aao jaan-e-jahaan' (Gomti Ke Kinare, 1972),
'churaa liyaa hai' (Yaadon Ki Baraat, 1973), 'aa raat jaatii
hai' (Benaam, 1974), and 'hai agar dushman' (Hum Kisise Kam Naheen,
1977) to equally sublime tunes. Why generalize again? You have
always been known to deliver simple, straightforward, and
scintillating lyrics that public easily understood and enjoyed
throughout your career. How it is possible that public understood
your poetry but RDB, who delivered it to them, did not?
Majrooh: Umm, you are right. Actually, I greatly enjoyed working with
him throughout his career. He took my poetry to masses and made them
popular.
Me: Thank you, Majrooh Sahab.
He enjoyed working with Majrooh too - 65 films, do you know? His
fondness for Gulzar is well known, because they happened to be around
same age and struck a lasting friendship during Parichay (1972). And,
for goodness sake, do not distort Anand Bakshi's name as Anand 'babu'
- it creates confusion like it did when you called Yusuf Sahab (Dilp
Kumar's popular name among film people, not among film fans) as Yusuf
'bhai'. Kindly stick to popular names for film personalities when you
talk about them here.
> > He might have been talking thoughtlessly with Irfan Sahab, I
> > suppose.
>
> On the contrary, I found Majrooh's statement very perceptive. It
> explains SDB's success despite being poor at Urdu/Hindi and the
> decline in the quality of lyrics when RDB, LP, etc. ruled.
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>
Majrooh was not talking about decline in quality of lyrics when RDB
and LP ruled; he was incorrectly accusing RDB of not understanding his
poetry without giving any example. Why distort his actual talk to
suit your poor judgment?
Finally, I have never even hinted that I consider RDB superior to
SDB. To me, SDB remains the finest music director in Hindi film music
and his score in Guide (1965) remains the finest work in the annals of
Hindi film music. While I have divine respect for SDB, I just love
RDB. But that does not mean I rate RDB much inferior to his father.
RDB was a trendsetter in his own right and made his dad proud with
many of his own albums. If I consider Guide (1965), Bandini (1963),
Jewel Thief (1967), Talash (1969), Aradhana (1969), Andaz (1949),
Barsaat (1949), Baiju Bawra (1952), Nagin (1954), Shri 420 (1955),
Udan Khatola (1955), Mr. and Mrs. 55 (1955), Azaad (1955), House No.
44 (1955), Chori (1956), CID (1956), Tumsa Nahin Dekha (1957),
Madhumati (1958), Anadi (1959), Mughal-E-Azam (1960), Professor
(1962), Mere Mehboob (1963), Phir Wohi Dil Laya Hoon (1964), Woh Kaun
Thi (1964), Chitralekha (1964), Sangam (1964), Mere Sanam (1965),
Arzoo (1965), Jab Jab Phool Khile (1965), Do Badan (1966), Yeh Raat
Phir Na Aayegi (1966), Bahu Begum (1967), Heer Ranjha (1970), Daag
(1973), Bobby (1973), and Muqaddar Ka Sikandar (1978) as classics in
Hindi film music and greatly enjoy them, I also rate Teesri Manzil
(1966), Kati Patang (1970), Mere Jeevan Saathi (1972), Yaadon Ki
Baraat (1973), Aap Ki Kasam (1974), Aandhi (1975), Mehbooba (1976),
and Kudrat (1981) in the same league. No two ways about it and no
sick prejudice either.
Asif
shri37
> I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
> that his greatest
> but he and
> Pancham were simply magic together.
>
> Cheers
> Niketan
>
> when the trio came to Pakistan. That conversation lasted for more
> than
> an hour. When I said to Majroh that although Burmanda could not
> even speak Urdu properly, he was an extra-ordinary Composer,he
> replied that Burmanda had very nice sense of Poetry. And
> immediately
> comparing, he said that R.D. Burman did not understand the Poetry.
>
> Regards,
he ( Majrooh ) said that R.D. Burman did not understand the Poetry
but the fact is Gulzar-RBD jodi has given most meaningful lyrics
equally well tuned such as " Khali haath Shyam ayi hai",
"Mera Kuchh saman Tumhare pas "" Do Naina Ek Kahani" " O Majhi re
apana kinaara" & With Anand Bakshi" Na koi Umang hai " and almost all
somgs of Amar Prem.The list is endless.
Though very small in stature I beg to differ with Majrooh saaab
Archisman Mozumder
> On Jan 8, 1:44 pm, "atu...@yahoo.com" <atu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 10:47 pm, arunk...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Public memory being short, it is important to maintain proper
> > > perspective. With the increasing coteric adulation accorded to the
> > > yonger (RD) Burman, the new generation seems to forget that he was
> > > only second best to the Elder (SD) Burman.
>
> > > "Rekhte ke ustaad tum hi nahin Ghalib, kehte hain kisi jamaane me koi
> > > Mir bhi tha".
>
> > R.D's number comes far far below the names of great composers like
> > Anilda, SDB,MadanMohan, Salilda, Khaiyyam, Jaideo, Naushad,
> > necessarily in the given order)
>
> Some other names that are missed out in this elite list are:
>
> Roshanlal Nagrath, Chitragupt, S N Tripathi, Sajjad Hussain, Hansraj
> Behl, Iqbal Qureshi, Sardar Malik etc.
>
> One must also not miss out on Ali Akbar Khan, Timirbaran, Alla Rakhha
> & Vilayat Khan
>
> >RD has given some great music but the
> > quantity of his worst numbers is far more than his number of good /
> > better compositions. Many RD fans claim that SD had used some of RD's
> > compositions in Pyaasa / Aaradhana and I fully agree with them because
> > they lack SDB magic.
>
> Thanks for letting us know that songs like 'jaane kya tu-ne kahi',
> 'aaj sajan mohe ang lagaa le', 'kora kaagaz tha yeh man mera', 'jaane
> woh kaise log they', 'chanda hai tuu', etc. 'lack SDB's magic'. RD
> fans also claim that SD pinched a tune or two from his son in
> Funtoosh. It'll be good to know about your opinion on whether Funtoosh
> too, 'lacks SDB's magic'.
>
> >In turn my gut feeling says that RD's best
> > composition "Ghar aaja (Chhote Nawab) must be a gift from the father
> > to the son.
>
> Some more can be added in this category. 'rainaa beeti jaaye', 'kuchh
> to log kahenge', 'o ganga maiyya', 'bada natkhat hain', 'jiya na laage
> mora', some songs of Aandhi, Kinara, Khushboo, etc. In fact, RD's
> career & suuccess rate started plummeting downwards after the demise
> of SD in the latter half of the 70-s.
>
> (I must hasten to add here, in all honesty, that there are indeed a
> lot of tunes that RD has used in his films that are originally,
> composed by SD. RD used to candidly mention that he used 'baap ka
> maal'.
>
> Regards.
(Apologies for responding to my own post).
In an offline post to me, Mr. Atul (Atul58) has clarified that he did
not think that all the songs of Pyaasa & Aradhana 'lack SD's magic'
but specific ones like ;sar jo tera chakraaye' & 'roop tera mastaana'.
In light of this, my post seems unduly sarcastic (the pitfalls of
hasty & impulsive responses) and sticks out like a sore thumb in this
nice thread. My apologies.
That said, I cannot help but mention that there are many more
memorable albums where there is an odd mediocre song or two. Should
the (official) composer not take onus for all the albums. 'Tiki riki
tiki riki takori', IMHO, lacts the 'Madan Mohan touch' that most of
the songs of 'Woh Kaun Thi' have. Does it mean that true blue Madan
Mohan admirers should palm that song off to Ghanshyam or Master Sonik?
On the flip side, rabid RD fans who try to prove that RD's mere
presence the best thing that could have happened to SD, post Funtoosh,
are also hopelessly off the mark.
In some other post in this thread, a list of father-son composer duos
have been drawn up and a conclusion reached that the father was better
than the son in most cases (save A R Rehman).
I think, the Burmans cases were unique. RD, despite getting a break in
the early 60-s, continued to assist his father for the whole decade.
As Srini (Ganti) mentions, there has been a lot of osmosis of ideas
that have taken place in both directions.
IMHO, it is difficult to adore SD's music & abhor RD's music (& vice
versa). There is a huge volume of work in the late 60-s (officially
SD's scores) that showcase the wonderful teamwork & bonding that
father & son had, along with with their magnifient team of Basudeb
Chakrabarti, Manohari Singh, Marutirao Keer, Bhanu Gupta, Kersi Lord,
etc. In fact, I feel that this talented team of arrangers & musicians
are actually the effective & logical bridge between the melody-based
music of the father & the chords/rhythms based music of the son.
If SD's music is the Newtonian classical mechanics & Rd's, the
radically different quantum theory of Heisenberg, then surely this
talented team of arrangers, who straddled both the era-s, can afford
to call themselves the 'James Clerk Maxwell Team'. :)
Asif-saab, your posts have really enriched this thread. Kudos & keep
it up.
Regards-Archisman.
Srinivas Ganti
> I think, the Burmans cases were unique. RD, despite getting a break in
> the early 60-s, continued to assist his father for the whole decade.
> As Srini (Ganti) mentions, there has been a lot of osmosis of ideas
> that have taken place in both directions.
At the cost of stirring the pot a little more, let me add that this is
true for SD-Jaidev too.
Jaidev went solo in the mid 50's but continued to assist SD, atleast
till early 60's.
>Asif-saab, your posts have really enriched this thread. Kudos & keep
>it up.
I second that.
Cheers,
Srinivas.
naniwadekar
"Asif" <alvi.asif at gmail.com> wrote :
>
> He enjoyed working with Majrooh too - 65 films, do
> you know? His
>
Assuming that R D Burman liked working with Majrooh,
how about the reverse? Did Majrooh like working
with RDB? Sharad Pawar was part of Congress under
Sonia Gandhi's leadership. Even today his party has
a partnership with Congress. It doesn't automatically
mean that he accepted her leadership or likes the
present arrangement. Judging by what Majrooh told
Shri Irfan Anwar, he must have disliked working with
R D Burman at least to some extent. (I don't know
whether Majrooh was a sensible listener, so would
not like to guess what he might have thought of R D
Burman's 'music'.) You are not making a whole
lot of sense if you insist that Majrooh was more
likely being sincere in his public pronouncements on
R D Burman than in a private setting with Irfan and
two other lyricists where he was in a better position
to speak honestly.
- dn
Asif
Well, the point is not whether or not Majrooh liked working with RDB
- he never said it anywhere, I hope - more likely, he enjoyed working
with him. The point is why he thought that RDB did not understand his
poetry, and that's what the main discussion is all about and that's
why I would have asked questions to Majrooh the way I have listed in
another post - his being more or less honest in public/private setting
is not a point either. The point is why he had the seemingly
incorrect perception of RDB's understanding of poetry all his career
and yet continued to work with him right until 1993 - I would have
debated this point with him irrespective of the setting (private or
public).
When I said RDB enjoyed working with Majrooh (65 films and all) too,
it was just a response to an irrelevant point (RDB liked working with
Gulzar) raised by Sami Sahab.
Asif
Afzal A. Khan
> On Jan 7, 2:11 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 7, 9:47 am, arunk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Public memory being short, it is important to maintain proper
>>> perspective. With the increasing coteric adulation accorded to the
>>> yonger (RD) Burman, the new generation seems to forget that he was
>>> only second best to the Elder (SD) Burman.
>>> "Rekhte ke ustaad tum hi nahin Ghalib, kehte hain kisi jamaane me koi
>>> Mir bhi tha".
>> that when Ghalib said this:
>>
>> reKhte ke tumheeN ustaad naheeN ho, Ghaalib
>> kahte haiN agle zamaane meN koi Meer bhi thaa
>>
>> I am not sure he was really admitting to being "second best"
>> (to Meer).
>>
>> -UVR.
>
> I met Majroh Sultanpuri, Kaifi Aazmi and Ali Sardar Jafary in 1993
> when the trio came to Pakistan. That conversation lasted for more
> than
> an hour. When I said to Majroh that although Burmanda could not
> even speak Urdu properly, he was an extra-ordinary Composer,he
> replied that Burmanda had very nice sense of Poetry. And
> immediately
> comparing, he said that R.D. Burman did not understand the Poetry.
>
> Regards,
>
There have been umpteen messages relating to this straightforward
post by Irfan Bhai. IMHO, much of the debate, accompanied by
acerbic comments, seems pointless. At the end of the day, it is
the personal view of Majrooh himself. It is difficult for any of
us to sort of "prove" (even to ourselves, much less to others)
that RDB really understood Poetry in whatever sense Majrooh meant
that word. He did understand Music, though, and there is no
dispute about that.
Now that both of them have left this world, there seems little
point in carrying on this feud. Let us enjoy the music of RDB
(to a greater or lesser degree, depending on our individual
perspective) and the lyrics penned by Majrooh. Just my opinion.
Afzal
UVR
Asif bhai (I hope you do not mind me addressing you this way!) --
I have been reading your posts in this thread with considerable
interest. It seems that you have been trying to prove that Majrooh
was wrong in his opinion that RDB did not understand poetry.
Whatever Majrooh really meant by that can be truly known to
Majrooh alone, but you have tried to demonstrate using the
numbers of RDB+Majrooh hits that RDB did understand poetry.
This is where I feel I must ask a simple question --
Is the number of hits a suitable indicator of the ability of an MD
to understand poetry?
I think not. What makes a song a hit is not whether the MD has
understood the lyrics (or, in fact, whether the lyrics are worth
undrestanding!), but how well the audience has responded to
the song. A song with superlative lyrics composed by the best
poetry-understanding MD can be a flop, just as a song with
idiotic lyrics composed by the foolishest MD can be a hit of
immense blockbuster proportions. Therefore, just because
RDB had massive numbers of hits with Majrooh, does it follow
that RDB understood Majrooh's poetry? I think not.
I mean, what if RDB did not, in fact, understand Majrooh's
poetry "right off the bat," but did after Majrooh explained it?
Why would that really be so bad? After all, RDB was not
a lyricist, nor was he an Urdu/Hindi expert. So if he didn't
understand Majrooh's words right off the bat, I don't see
how that is something that undermines RDB's skills as an
MD, as long as he produced an enjoyable tune for the song.
Besides, hasn't Gulzar said something very similar about
RDB and his (Gulzar's) poetry? -- that RDB had trouble
with what 'nasheman' was in 'is mo.D se jaate hai.n'?
So what are we now going to prove that Gulzar was
talking through his hat? -- because, well, after all, 'is
mo.D se jaate hai.n' *IS* such a superaltive song! :-)
Aaa...nyway, I think just because a song is a hit, it does
NOT prove anything about its MD's poetry understanding
skills or the lack thereof.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
Your logic makes a lot of sense. I said practically the
same things -- but not in such detail.
Afzal
Asif
UVR Sahab:
My list of RDB-Majrooh hit albums did have nothing to do with RDB
understanding or not understanding Majrooh's poetry. It was just to
show to Sanjeev that Majrooh did have "greatest hits" with Majrooh.
Elsewhere, yes, I hinted that I believe that because RDB and Majrooh
worked together in so many films and for so many years, RDB did
understand his poetry in general terms. Notice in my imagined
interview with Majrooh, I said the same thing as you did: he possibly
did not understand a few words or an entire sentence, yet he delivered
an excellent tune. But that does not mean in "general terms" that he
"did not understand Majrooh's poetry".
If Majrooh said something like "RDB did not understand *some* of my
lyrics/poetry" I would have accepted it. By the way, one thing that I
have not stated so far, but now I will, is Majrooh did pen really
sublime and better poetry for other MDs (but never for RDB), like
'kahii.n beKayaal hokar' (Teen Deviyan, 1965), 'aise to na
dekho' (Teen Deviyan, 1965), 'ham hai.n mataa-e-kuuchaa-o-baazaar kii
tarah' (Dastak, 1970), and 'pattaa pattaa buuTaa buTaa' (Ek Nazar,
1972). Anyway, it hurts to know he thought so lowly about RDB despite
doing 65 films with him. Does Gulzar ever talk about RDB like that?
Anyway, I also agree with Afzal Sahab that it is futile to debate
whatever Majrooh said then. My main focus on this thread is RDB-
Majrooh hit albums, and I have already proved my point there. By the
way, Teen Deviyan was one of Majrooh's finest work and one of SDB-
Majrooh greatest: 'kahii.n beKayaal hokar' .. marvelous song! I must
listen to it several times tonight. Cheers.
Asif
UVR
But of course, Afzal saahib -- brevity being the soul
of wit, and all that. I'll hopefully get there some time
in my life.
-UVR.
Asif
>
> UVR Sahab:
>
> My list of RDB-Majrooh hit albums did have nothing to do with RDB
> understanding or not understanding Majrooh's poetry. It was just to
> show to Sanjeev that Majrooh did have "greatest hits" with Majrooh.
I meant "greatest hits" with RDB.
kcp
>
> Asif bhai (I hope you do not mind me addressing you this way!) --
>
> I have been reading your posts in this thread with considerable
> interest. It seems that you have been trying to prove that Majrooh
> was wrong in his opinion that RDB did not understand poetry.
UVR sahab ( ok? )
Asif bhai wrote in response to post no 7 in this thread....you need to
read it again
KCP
Abhijit
I don't see it possible to measure an MD's "understanding of poetry"
anyway. But if "how nicely a tune reflects the mood of lyrics" is
accepted as a hint, I think RDB is up there with other greats.
Shalini Razdan
>
> Is the number of hits a suitable indicator of the ability of an MD
> to understand poetry?
Excellent point UVR saab! Your and Afzal saab's posts were almost
poetic in their wisdom and sensibility. Pity neither of you saw fit to
make these points to Ifran saab and ask him what RDB's understanding
(or lack of ) of song lyrics had to do with the issue (stupid as it
is) under discussion - namely which of the two Burmans was the better
*Music Director*. But I forget, RMIM doesn't demand logic and
relevancy from those bashing RDB, only from those daring to defend
him!
Shalini
UVR
>
> I don't see it possible to measure an MD's "understanding of poetry"
> anyway. But if "how nicely a tune reflects the mood of lyrics" is
> accepted as a hint, I think RDB is up there with other greats.
Ok, agreed, more or less, but this STILL doesn't mean that RDB
understood (the mood of) the lyrics without help. But what is
wrong with that -- if he understood them *with* help and then
created good tunes, that's good enough for me.
Basically, we, as listeners, don't have a way of knowing which
MD understood lyrics or and which one didn't. But I think we
don't even need to know this. If the song is good for me (by
my own personal yardstick), I couldn't care less. It's the same
thing about lyricists. I couldn't care less whether Shakeel or
Sahir understood the nuances of musical composition. If they
came up with excellent words for the tunes the MDs gave
them, why should it matter to me what musical credentials
Shakeel/Sahir had, or didn't have?
-UVR.
UVR
LOL. That may well be the case. But let it be noted, milady, that
in this case, the bashing (such as it was) was not done by an
RMIMer. It was done by Majrooh, by way of voicing an opinion
(which he might or might not have had a good reason for holding).
So, it looks like logic can be dispensed with in the real world
as well.
-UVR.
Shalini Razdan
Not so fast, sir.:-) It was an RMIMer who brought up what Majrooh
said (in private) into THIS thread and is therefore accountable for
aiding and abetting the bashing.:-)
Shalini
> -UVR.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Abhijit
Precisely. I wonder what people might have called RDB if he said, for
example, Majrooh didn't understand music. And why would an MD need a
lyricist if he himself was capable enough in poetry (as Ravindra Jain
or Salil Choudhary in Bengali). But I do have complains for the music
created by 90s/2000s MDs where I could hardly find any justice done to
lyrics. It's more like throwing sound patterns at listeners.
UVR
In response to which, ma'am, the defense might well
point out that there was never an insinuation on either
gentleman's part (Majrooh or Irfan saahib) that the lack
of poetic understanding made RDB an _inferior_
composer. In fact, they might go so far as to point out
that one could interpret Majrooh's statement "properly"(!)
and realize that what he was really saying is that "SDB
was great MD because of his understanding of poetry,
RDB was great in spite of his lack of it!" :-)
-UVR.
Ketan
Asif says...
>
>On Jan 9, 10:29 pm, sm0...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> > 1. Naushad: Shahjahan (1946), Andaz (1949),
>>
>> No need to read the list further. The above is enough to prove that
>> Sanjeev was right in that Majrooh's greatest hits were not with RDB!
>>
>> <--------redundant list deleted------->
>>
>
>There you go again, refusing to see beyond Naushad (incidentally the
>first entry in the list)!
>And the fact that you still refuse to see anything beyond
>Naushad proves your ignorance, prejudice, or stupidity, or all three.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Can you just call Sami a "monkey" and maybe leave the rest of
the sledging to Messrs. Ponting & Co.?
Next time you make your post do remember two sets of words "Happy listenings"
and "To each his own".
Thank you
Ketan
Afzal A. Khan
Please permit me to make one submission : I do believe that
Naushad at least "understood" the nuances of poetry --- at
least in the case of lyricists who wrote for his films.
Afzal
sm0...@gmail.com
Google.
On Jan 10, 8:56 am, Asif <alvi.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 9, 10:29 pm, sm0...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > 1. Naushad: Shahjahan (1946), Andaz (1949),
>
> > No need to read the list further. The above is enough to prove that
> > Sanjeev was right in that Majrooh's greatest hits were not with RDB!
>
> > <--------redundant list deleted------->
>
> There you go again, refusing to see beyond Naushad (incidentally the
> first entry in the list)!
I did look "beyond," but didn't find it worthwhile.
>And why drag the poor Sanjeev into your
> perverted pot of prejudice? Let him prove first what you think is
FYI, Sanjeev was already in the thread. I didn't "drag" him here. The
only place I'd like to drag him to is Ohio so that I can attend his
concert.
> 'enough', and then back him. The fact that I listed Naushad's albums
> with Majrooh in the list clearly shows my objectivity in judging hit/
> good music. And the fact that you still refuse to see anything beyond
> Naushad proves your ignorance, prejudice, or stupidity, or all three.
And a happy new year to you as well!
Your objective list served only one purpose - it proved that 51 is >
1. A simple Arithmetic relation which all of us were already aware of.
Just because Majrooh had 51 "hits" with RDB doesn't necessarily mean
that his "greatest hits" (which BTW was what Sanjeev questioned in the
first place) were with RDB.
> Passing a seemingly educated sentence like "one understood poetry but
> not the language, the other understood but not the poetry" (but
> actually a stupid statement) off as wise saying again is not going to
> help you.
When need of help, call PHANTOM - Old Jungle Saying.
>You need to prove it with stats/examples.
I did provide examples. I said that Shahjehan and Andaaz were better
(greater) than any of the 51 RDB films that you cited. I feel that
these films prove that Majrooh's "greatest hits" were not with RDB.
You are welcome to differ.
>You seem to talk
> as if you were a personal advisor to the Burmans or their family guru,
Of course! Arre Sachin humare kheton me "Jhingalala jhoom" pukarte hue
bhaaga karta thha. Where do you thing RDB got that idea from in
Shalimar?
> who knew their hearts and minds very well. While SDB's apparent lack
> of knowledge of Hindi/Urdu is well known, I would be interested in
> access to examples/proofs of RDB's lack of understanding of Majrooh's
> poetry. Prove it with stats/examples or escape this debate without
> answering my questions like you did last time with the 'pizza ki boo'
> debate.
"Escape this debate" sounds very similar to RSC's "ran away" (I know
there are several RSCers here). I'll be in the company of the other
Sachin. BTW, Mr. Ganti has introduced a new garlic topping on RDB's
pizza lest you missed that post. Or is it a case of "Barq girti hai to
bechare Naushad fanon par!?"
> To help you, I would suggest that you first dine on Hyderabadi
> biryaani,
As I always say, if it's Birayani, it *has* to be Hyderabadi!
Everything else is just plain rice.
>grab your favorite musical instruments that your Naushad
> used and compose a few Majrooh's poetries that you think RDB
> mishandled, and then come back and show us those tunes.
Apne ko to sirf band bajana aata hai. So, now one has to be a whale to
write Moby Dick?
> > (especially senior) MDs. Afterall, he liked working with Gulzar! :-)
> > And has a lot of films with Anand Babu.
>
> In fact, I have a problem with today's journalists or music lovers who
> talk/interview with music personalities. They just pose questions and
> gleefully accept answers as divine words; they never question music
> personalities' answers. If I were in Irfan Sahab's place, I would
> have talked with Majrooh thus:
Aah! But you are putting your own words in Majrooh Sahab's paanwala
mouth. Allow me to use *his* words. Majrooh Sahab's responses are
listed in "..."
> Me: But you worked with RDB in about 65 films,
"Diwana mujhsa nahin is amber ke neeche, aage hai quaatil mera, aur
main peechhe peechhe...", but "Khaai hai re humne khasam, sang rehne
ki..."
>and 51 had hit music.
"Hai hai, ye zaalim zamaana..."
> Then what poetry of yours he could not understand
"Baaten hain nazar ki nazar se samjhaungi(a), pehle paRo paiyyan to
bhir batlaaungi(a)..."
>and why you kept working with him until 1993?
"Akhir ko ek insaan hain, farishta to nahin hum..."
> Majrooh: [Cites a couple of examples that never made it to the films]
> Me: But it occasionally happened with every MD-Lyricist team.
"..usko nahin main pehchaanta, banda uska pata bhi nahi jaanta"
>A poem
> does not fit into a MD's understanding of his own tune, so it never
> evolves into a song.
"Baat yun banaae hai ke, ho ho... ho" (The final "ho" is that of
exasperation!).
>Why generalize RDB's knowledge of poetry with
> these couple of anti-examples?
"Meri uljhan yunhi besabab to nahin, dil ki betaabion ki quasam.."
> Me: It happened occasionally too - a MD did not grasp the full meaning
> of a few words or an entire sentence, but he still set it to an
> excellent tune.
"Aise na bolo, paRjaae mujhko.... sharmana"
>RDB was not an Urdu poet like you, but he still set
> some of your sublime poetry, like 'tumane mujhe dekhaa' (Teesri
> Manzil, 1966), 'aao aao jaan-e-jahaan' (Gomti Ke Kinare, 1972),
> 'churaa liyaa hai' (Yaadon Ki Baraat, 1973), 'aa raat jaatii
> hai' (Benaam, 1974), and 'hai agar dushman' (Hum Kisise Kam Naheen,
> 1977) to equally sublime tunes.
"Hosh me aaja dhyaan kidhar hai..."
>Why generalize again?
"Geet naazuk hai mera sheeshe se bhi, TooTe na kahin.."
>You have
> always been known to deliver simple, straightforward, and
> scintillating lyrics that public easily understood and enjoyed
> throughout your career. How it is possible that public understood
> your poetry but RDB, who delivered it to them, did not?
"Kahin Dar ke maare chooha to nahin ho gaya?"
> Me: Thank you, Majrooh Sahab.
"Main akela yun bhi maze me thha, mujhe aap kis lie mil gae..."
And thus the interview ended.
> for goodness sake, do not distort Anand Bakshi's name as Anand 'babu'
> - it creates confusion like it did when you called Yusuf Sahab (Dilp
What confusion? Even you seem to have got it. Yousuf "Sahab" ho sakte
hain to Anand "Babu" kyun nahin?
> Kumar's popular name among film people, not among film fans) as Yusuf
> 'bhai'. Kindly stick to popular names for film personalities when you
> talk about them here.
And what's wrong with Yousuf Bhai? Afterall, we have Salil da, Sachin
da, Kishore da and even Da Bhappi da! Shakespeare, rose, name, y'know.
> Majrooh was not talking about decline in quality of lyrics when RDB
> and LP ruled;
I never claimed that Majrooh did. It was I who made that connection -
MD doesn't understand poetry --> MD doesn't care for good poetry -->
MD doesn't insist on good poetry --> quality of lyrics declines.
> Finally, I have never even hinted that I consider RDB superior to
> SDB.
Thank God for small mercies!
> and Kudrat (1981) in the same league. No two ways about it and no
> sick prejudice either.
Reaction to RDB criticism: 0% prejudice, 100% sickness.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)..... jalta hai patanga jab koi, aur
shamma ka aansu DHalta hai, dil jalta hai.
> Asif
Shalini Razdan
intellect. And although these effects are seen by the mind, this mind is, in
comparison with the mind which sees the causes, as the bodily senses are in
comparison with the intellect.
235. Rem viderunt, causam non viderunt.29
236. According to the doctrine of chance, you ought to put yourself to the
trouble of searching for the truth; for if you die without worshipping the
True Cause, you are lost. "But," say you, "if He had wished me to worship
Him, He would have left me signs of His will." He has done so; but you
neglect them. Seek them, therefore; it is well worth it.
237. Chances.--We must live differently in the world, according to these
different assumptions: (1) that we could always remain in it; (2) that it is
certain that we shall not remain here long, and uncertain if we shall remain
here one hour. This last assumption is our condition.
238. What do you then promise me, in addition to certain troubles, but ten
years of self-love (for ten years is the chance), to try hard to please
without success?
239. Objection.--Those who hope for salvation are so far happy; but they
have as a counterpoise the fear of hell.
Reply.--Who has most reason to fear hell: he who is in ignorance whether
there is a hell, and who is certain of damnation if there is; or he who
certainly believes there is a hell and hopes to be saved if there is?
240. "I would soon have renounced pleasure," say they, "had I faith." For my
part I tell you, "You would soon have faith, if you renounced pleasure."
Now, it is for you to begin. If I could, I would give you faith. I cannot do
so, nor therefore test the truth of what you say. But you can well renounce
pleasure and test whether what I say is true.
241. Order.--I would have far more fear of being mistaken, and of finding
that the Christian religion was true, than of not being mistaken in
believing it true.
SECTION IV: OF THE MEANS OF BELIEF
242. Preface to the second part.--T
UVR
77Gen. 4:7. "Unto thee shall be his desire."
78Office for Holy Saturday. "Which won for us a Saviour."
79Office for Good Friday. "Which won for us God's hallowed members to
embrace."
80Hymn Vexilla regis. "Worthy God's hallowed members to embrace."
81Luke 7:6 "I am not worthy."
821 Cor. 11:29. "Who eateth unworthily."
83Rev. 4:11. "Thou art worthy to receive."
84Office of the Holy Virgin. "Make me worthy."
[85]Matthew, 7:7, "Ask and it shall be given you."
86Is. 45:15.
[87]John 8:30-33. "Many believed on him. Then Jesus said: 'If ye continue...
then ye are my disciples indeed, and the truth shall make you free.' They
answered him: 'We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man.'"
88Rev. 22:11. "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still."
[89]Circumcidentes cor. Rom. 2. "Circumcision is that of the heart."
901 Cor. 15:33. "Evil communications corrupt good manners."
91"What they have found by their curiosity, they have lost by their pride."
Quod curiositate invenerunt, superbia per
UVR
The heathens know not God, and love the world only. The Jews know the true
God, and love the world only. The Christians know the true God, and love not
the world. Jews and heathens love the same good. Jews and Christians know
the same God.
The Jews were of two kinds; the first had only heathen affections, the other
had Christian affections.
609. There are two kinds of men in each religion: among the heathen,
worshippers of beasts and the worshippers of the one only God of natural
religion; among the Jews, the carnal, and the spiritual, who were the
Christians of the old law; among Christians, the coarser-minded, who are the
Jews of the new law. The carnal Jews looked for a carnal Messiah; the
coarser Christians believe that the Messiah has dispensed them from the love
of God; true Jews and true Christians worship a Messiah who makes them love
God.
610. To show that the true Jews and the true Christians have but the same
religion.--The religion of the Jews seemed to consist es
Shalini Razdan
faith than between faith and virtue?
Merit. This word is ambiguous.
Meruit habere Redemptorem.78
Meruit tam sacra membra tangere.79
Digno tam sacra membra tangere.80
Non sum dignus.81
Qui manducat indignus.82
Dignus est accipere.83
Dignare me.84
God is only bound according to His promises. He has promised to grant
justice to prayers; He has never promised prayer only to the children of
promise.
Saint Augustine has distinctly said that strength would be taken away from
the righteous. But it is by chance that he said it; for it might have
happened that the occasion of saying it did not present itself. But his
principles make us see that, when the occasion for it presented itself, it
was impossible that he should not say it, or that he should say anything to
the contrary. It is then rather that he was forced to say it, when the
occasion presented itself, than that he said it, when the occasion presented
itself, the one being of necessity, the other of chance. But the two are all
that we can ask.
514. "Work out your own salvation with fear."
Proofs of prayer. Petenti dabitur.[85]
Therefore it is in our power to ask. On the other hand, there is God. So it
is not in our power, since the obtaining of (the grace) to pray to Him is
not in our power. For since salvation is not in us, and the obtaining of
such grace is from Him, prayer is not in our power.
The righteous man should then hope no more in God, for he ought not to hope,
but to strive to obtain what he wants.
Let us conclude then that, since man is now unrighteous since the first sin,
and God is unwilling that he should thereby not be estranged from Him, it is
only by a first effect that he is not estranged.
Therefore, those who depart from God have not this first effect without
which they are not estranged f
UVR
856. On the miracle.--As God has made no family more happy, let it also be
the case that He find none more thankful.
SECTION XIV: APPENDIX: POLEMICAL FRAGMENTS
857. Clearness, obscurity.--There would be too great darkness, if truth had
not visible signs. This is a wonderful one, that it has always been
preserved in one Church and one visible assembly of men. There would be too
great clearness, if there were only one opinion in this Church. But in order
to recognise what is true, one has only to look at what has always existed;
for it is certain that truth has always existed, and that nothing false has
always existed.
858. The history of the Church ought properly to be called the history of
truth.
859. There is a pleasure in being in a ship beaten about by a storm, when we
are sure that it will not founder. The persecutions which harass the Church
are of this nature.
860. In addition to so many other signs of piety, they are also persecuted,
which is the best sign of piety.
861. The Church is in an excellent state when it is sustained by God only.
862. The Church has always been attacked by opposite errors, but perhaps
never at the same time, as now. And if she suffer more because of the
multiplicity of errors, she derives this advantage from it, that they
destroy each other.
She complains of both, but far more of the Calvinists, because of the
schism.
It is certain that many of the two opposite sects are deceived. They must be
disillusioned.
Faith embraces many truths which seem to contradict each other. There is a
time to laugh, and time to weep, etc. Responde. Ne respondeas,215 etc.
The source of this is the union of the two natures in Jesus Christ; and also
Asif
illness. Nature gives us, then, passions and desires suitable to our present
state. We are only troubled by the fears which we, and not nature, give
ourselves, for they add to the state in which we are the passions of the
state in which we are not.
As nature makes us always unhappy in every state, our desires picture to us
a happy state; because they add to the state in which we are the pleasures
of the state in which we are not. And if we attained to these pleasures, we
should not be happy after all; because we should have other desires natural
to this new state.
We must particularise this general proposition....
110. The consciousness of the falsity of present pleasures, and the
ignorance of the vanity of absent pleasures, cause inconstancy.
111. Inconstancy.--We think we are playing on ordinary organs when playing
upon man. Men are organs, it is true, but, odd, changeable, variable with
pipes not arranged in proper order. Those who only know how to play on
ordinary organs will not produce barmonies on these. We must know where are.
112. Inconstancy.--Things have different qualities, and the soul different
inclinations; for nothing is simple which is presented to the soul, and the
soul never presents itself simply to any object. Hence it comes that we weep
and laugh at the same thing.
113. Inconstancy and oddity.--To live only by work, and to rule over the
most powerful State in the world, are very opposite things. They are united
in the person of the great Sultan of the Turks.
114. Variety is as abundant as all tones of the voice, all ways of walking,
coughing, blowing the nose, sneezing. We distinguish vines by their fruit,
and call them the Condrien, the Desargues, and such and such a stock. Is
this all? Has a vine ever produced two bunches exactly the same, and has a
bunch two grapes alike, etc.?
I can never judge of the same thing exactly in the same
UVR
foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
93St. Bernard, Sermones in Cantica Canticorum, lxxxiv. "The better one is,
the worse one becomes, if one attributes the cause of this goodness to one's
self."
[94]Ibid. "Meriting blows more than kisses, I fear not, because I love."
95John 11:33. Et turbarit seipsum. "And he troubled himself."
96Matt. 26:46. "Let us be going."
[97]Matt. 18:2. "Jesus went forth."
98Gen. 3:5. "Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
[99]John 20:17. "Touch me not."
100Allusion to John 6:56; 1:47; 8:36; 6:32. "True disciple; an Israelite
indeed; free indeed; true bread."
101In discipulis meis. Isaiah 8:16. "Seal the law among my disciples."
[102]Is. 45:15.
1031 Cor. 1:17. "Lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
104"Rend your heart."
105Ps. 9:14. "Have mercy."
106Is. 5:7. "He has looked for."
107Ezek. 20:25. Praecepta non bona. "Statutes that were not good."
[108]"I will establish my covenant between me and Thee for an everlasting
covenant, to be a God unto Thee."
109Gen. 17:9. "Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore."
[110]Gen. 49:18. "I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord."
[111]Essays, 1. 22.
112Num. 11:29. Quis tribuat ut omnis populus prophetet. "Would God that all
the Lord's people were prophets."
[113]De cultu feminarum, i-3. "He could equally have renewed it, under the
Spirit's inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the
deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of
it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been
restored through Ezra."
[114]Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, V. viii. 14. "God was glorified, and
the Scriptures were recognized as truly divine, for they all rendered the
same things in the same words and the same names, f
Afzal A. Khan
human caprice; nor have they strength to hold it securely. It is the same
with knowledge, for disease takes it away. We are incapable both of truth
and goodness.
437. We desire truth, and find within ourselves only uncertainty.
We seek happiness, and find only misery and death.
We cannot but desire truth and happiness, and are incapable of certainty or
happiness. This desire is left to us, partly to punish us, partly to make us
perceive wherefrom we are fallen.
438. If man is not made for God, why is he only happy in God? If man is made
for God, why is he so opposed to God?
439. Nature corrupted.--Man does not act by reason, which constitutes his
being.
440. The corruption of reason is shown by the existence of so many different
and extravagant customs. It was necessary that truth should come, in order
that man should no longer dwell within himself.
441. For myself, I confess that, so soon as the Christian religion reveals
the principle that human nature is corrupt and fallen from God, that opens
my eyes to see everywhere the mark of this truth: for nature is such that
she testifies everywhere, both within man and without him, to a lost God and
a corrupt nature.
442. Man's true nature, his true good, true virtue, and true religion, are
things of which the knowledge is inseparable.
443. Greatness, wretchedness.--The more light we have, the more greatness
and the more baseness we discover in man. Ordinary men--those who are more
educated: philosophers, they astonish ordinary men--Christians, they
astonish philosophers.
Who wil
Asif
[110]Gen. 49:18. "I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord."
[111]Essays, 1. 22.
112Num. 11:29. Quis tribuat ut omnis populus prophetet. "Would God that all
the Lord's people were prophets."
[113]De cultu feminarum, i-3. "He could equally have renewed it, under the
Spirit's inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the
deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of
it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been
restored through Ezra."
[114]Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, V. viii. 14. "God was glorified, and
the Scriptures were recognized as truly divine, for they all rendered the
same things in the same words and the same names, from beginning to end, so
that even the heathen who were present knew that the Scriptures had been
translated by the inspiration of God. And it is no marvel that God did this,
for when the Scriptures had been destroyed in the captivity of the people in
the days of Nebuchadnezzar, and the Jews had gone back to their country
after seventy years, then in the times of Artaxerxes, the king of the
Persians, he inspired Ezra, the priest of the tribe of Levi, to restore all
the sayings of the prophets who had gone before, and to restore to the
people the law given by Moses." This is Pascal's rendering into Latin of the
passage from Eusebius of which the last lines are in Greek, above.
[115]"Each time that."
116Mark 2:10, 11. "But that ye may know that the son of man hath power on
earth to forgive sins... I say unto thee, Arise."
117Rom. 5:14. "The figure of him that was to come."
118Ps. 75. 5. "They have slept their sleep."
1191 Cor. 7:31 "The fashion of this world."
120Deut. 8:9. "Bread without scarceness."
121Luke 11:3. "Our daily bread."
122Ps. 71:9. "The enemies of the Lord shall lick the dust."
123Exod. 12:8. Cum lacticibus agrestibus. "With bitter herbs."
124Ps. 14
Archisman Mozumder
magnifies into a mountain. Another turn of the imagination would make us
discover this without difficulty.
86. My fancy makes me hate a croaker, and one who pants when eating. Fancy
has great weight. Shall we profit by it? Shall we yield to this weight
because it is natural? No, but by resisting it...
87. Nae iste magno conatu magnas nugas dixerit.[14]
583.[15] Quasi quidquam infelicius sit homini cui sua figmenta
dominantur.[16]
88. Children who are frightened at the face they have blackened are but
children. But how shall one who is so weak in his childhood become really
strong when he grows older? We only change our fancies. All that is made
perfect by progress perishes also by progress. All that has been weak can
never become absolutely strong. We say in vain, "He has grown, he has
changed"; he is also the same.
89. Custom is our nature. He who is accustomed to the faith believes in it,
can no longer fear hell, and believes in nothing else. He who is accustomed
to believe that the king is terrible... etc. Who doubts, then, that our
soul, being accustomed to see number, space, motion, believes that and
nothing else?
90. Quod crebro videt non miratur, etiamsi cur fiat nescit; quod ante non
viderit, id si evenerit, ostentum esse censet.17
91. Spongia solis.--When we see the same effect always recur, we infer a
natural necessity in it, as that there will be a tomorrow, etc. But Nature
often deceives us, and does not subject herself to her own rules.
92. What are our natural principles but principles of custom? In children
they are those which they have received from the habits of thei
Chetan Vinchhi
some have erroneously argued against the immortality of the soul. But the
sense is that this spirit is the evil leaven, which accompanies man till
death and will not return at the resurrection.
And on Psalm 103 the same thing.
And on Psalm 16.
Principles of Rabbinism: two Messiahs.
447. Will it be said that, as men have declared that righteousness has
departed the earth, they therefore knew of original sin?--Nemo ante obitum
beatus est[72]--that is to say, they knew death to be the beginning of
eternal and essential happiness?
448. Milton sees well that nature is corrupt and that men are averse to
virtue; he does not know why they cannot fly higher.
449. Order.--After Corruption to say: "It is right that all those who are in
that state should know it, both those who are content with it, and those who
are not content with it; but it is not right that all should see
Redemption."
450. If we do not know ourselves to be full of pride, ambition, lust,
weakness, misery, and injustice, we are indeed blind. And if, knowing this,
we do not desire deliverance, what can we say of a man...?
What then, can we have but esteem for a religion which knows so well the
defects of man, and desire for the truth of a religion which promises
remedies so desirable?
451. All men naturally hate one another. They employ lust as far as possible
in the service of the public weal. But this is only a pretnece and a fals
kumar
people from Abraham, only in order to bring them into a rich land.
And even grace is only the type of glory, for it is not the ultimate end. It
has been symbolised by the law, and itself symbolises glory. But it is the
type of it, and the origin or cause.
The ordinary life of men is like that of the saints. They all seek their
satisfaction and differ only in the object in which they place it; they call
those their enemies who hinder them, etc. God has then shown the power which
He has of giving invisible blessings, by that which He has shown Himself to
have over things visible.
644. Types.--God, wishing to form for Himself an holy people, whom He should
separate from all other nations, whom He should deliver from their enemies
and should put into a place of rest, has promised to do so and has foretold
by His prophets the time and the manner of His coming. And yet, to confirm
the hope of His elect, He has made them see in it an image through all time,
without leaving them devoid of assurances of His power and of His will to
save them. For, at the creation of man, Adam was the witness, and guardian
of the promise of a Saviour, who should be born of woman, when men were
still so near the creation that they could not have forgotten their creation
and their fall. When those who had seen Adam were no longer in the world,
God sent Noah whom He saved, and drowned the whole earth by a miracle which
sufficiently indicated the power which He had to save the wo
sm0...@gmail.com
are all these and judges of all these. No one guesses what they are. When
they come into society, they talk on matters about which the rest are
talking. We do not observe in them one quality rather than another, save
when they have to make use of it. But then we remember it, for it is
characteristic of such persons that we do not say of them that they are fine
speakers, when it is not a question of oratory, and that we say of them that
they are fine speakers, when it is such a question.
It is therefore false praise to give a man when we say of him, on his entry,
that he is a very clever poet; and it is a bad sign when a man is not asked
to give his judgement on some verses.
35. We should not be able to say of a man, "He is a mathematician," or "a
preacher," or "eloquent"; but that he is "a gentleman." That universal
quality alone pleases me. It is a bad sign when, on seeing a person, you
remember his book. I would prefer you to see no quality till you meet it and
have occasion to us
Chetan Vinchhi
and should put into a place of rest, has promised to do so and has foretold
by His prophets the time and the manner of His coming. And yet, to confirm
the hope of His elect, He has made them see in it an image through all time,
without leaving them devoid of assurances of His power and of His will to
save them. For, at the creation of man, Adam was the witness, and guardian
of the promise of a Saviour, who should be born of woman, when men were
still so near the creation that they could not have forgotten their creation
and their fall. When those who had seen Adam were no longer in the world,
God sent Noah whom He saved, and drowned the whole earth by a miracle which
will which He had to do so, and to raise up from the seed of woman Him whom
He had promised. This miracle was enough to confirm the hope of men.
The memory of the Deluge being so fresh among men, while Noah was still
alive, God made promises to Abraham, and, while Shem was still living, sent
Moses, etc....
645. Types.--God, willing to deprive His own of perishable blessings,
created the Jewish people in order to show that this was not owing to lack
of power.
646. The Synagogue did not perish, because it was a type. But, because it
was only a type, it fell into servitude. The type existed till the truth
came, in order that the Church should be always visible, either in the sign
which promised it, or in substance.
647. That the law was figurative.
648. Two errors: 1. To take everything literally. 2. To take everything
spiritually.
649. To speak against too greatly figurative language.
650. There are some types clear and demonstrative, but others which seem
somewhat far-fetched, and which convince only those who are already
persuaded. These ar
Asif
innocence of that house.
855. I suppose that men believe miracles. You corrupt religion either in
favour of your friends or against your enemies. You arrange it at your will.
Srinivas Ganti
searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
[139]"Read what has been announced. See what has been accomplished. Meditate
on what is to be done."
[140]John 19:15. "We have no king but Caesar."
141Is. 65:2. "Arebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good."
[142]"They have pierced."
[143]Ps. 130:8. "from all his iniquities."
144Deut. 28:29. Et palpes in meridie. "And thou shalt grope at noonday."
145Is. 29:11. Quem (librum) cum dederint scienti litteras et respondebit:
Non possum. "Which men deliver to one that is learned... and he saith, I
cannot."
146Job 19:23-25. "for I know that my redeemer liveth."
147Luke 22:32, 61. "And when thou art converted, strengthen thy brother."
"And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter."
[148]Is. 6:10. "Shut their eyes."
149"The man who exists makes you God."
150"It is written: 'You are Gods' (Ps. 80:6), and the Scripture cannot be
made naught of."
151"This weakness is not for life; it is for death."
152"John 11:11 and 14. "'Lazarus sleeps,' and later it says: 'Lazarus is
dead.'"
[153]Ps. 44:4. Gladio tuo- "Thy sword, O most mighty."
[154]Heb. 10:5. "When he cometh into the world."
[155]Joel. 2:28. "I will pour out my spirit."
156Ps. 21:28. "All peoples shall come and worship him."
157Is. 49:6. "It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant," etc.
158Ps. 2:8. "Ask of me."
159Ps. 71:11. "All kings shall fall down before him."
160Ps. 34:11. "Witnesses rise up."
161Lam. 3:30. "He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him."
162Ps. 68:22. Dederunt in escam meam fel. "They gave me also gall for my
meat."
163Is. 49:6. "It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant," etc.
164Luke 2:32. "A light to lighten the Gentiles."
165Ps. 167:20.
Asif
are many people who see the truth, and who cannot attain to it; but there
are few who do not know that the purity of religion is opposed to our
corruptions. It is absurd to say that an eternal recompense is offered to
the morality of Escobar.
916. Probability.--They have some true principles; but they misuse them.
Now, the abuse of truth ought to be as much punished as the introduction of
falsehood.
As if there were two hells, one for sins against love, the other for those
against justice!
917. Probability.--The earnestness of the saints in seeking the truth was
useless, if the probable is trustworthy. The fear of the saints who have
always followed the surest way. (Saint Theresa having always followed her
confessor.)
918. Take away probability, and you can no longer please the world; give
probability, and you can no longer displease it.
919. These are the effects of the sins of the peoples and of the Jesuits.
The great have wished to be flattered. The Jesuits have wished to be loved
by the great. They have all been worthy to be abandoned to the spirit of
lying, the one party to deceive, the others to be deceived. They have been
avaricious, ambitious, voluptuous. Coacervabunt tibi magistros.228 Worthy
disciples of such masters, they have sought flatterers, and have found them.
920. If they do not renounce their doctrine of probability, their good
maxims are as little holy as the bad, for they are founded on human
authority; and thus, if they are more just, they will be more reasonable,
but not more holy. They take after the wild stem on which they are grafted.
If what I say does not serve to enlighten you, it will be of use to the
people.
If these are silent, the stones w
Asif
30Matt. 11:27 "Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to
whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
31Is. 45:15. "Verily, thou art a God that hidest thyself."
321 Cor. 1:17. "Lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
33Rom. 1:17. "The just shall live by faith."
34Rom. 10:17. "Faith cometh by hearing."
35"I know." "I believe."
36Ps. 119. 36. "Incline my heart, O Lord."
[37]Wisd. of Sol. 15:8, 16. "He moulds a God... like unto himself."
38Matt. 18:3. "Except ye become as little children."
[39]Ps. 119:36. "Incline my heart, O Lord, unto thy testimonies."
40Cicero, De finibus, V. 21. "There is no longer anything which is ours;
what I call ours is conventional."
[41]Seneca, Epistles, xcv. "It is by virtue of senatus-consultes and
plebiscites that one commits crimes."
[42]Tacitus, Annals, iii. 25. "Once we suffered from our vices; today we
suffer from our laws."
43Saint Augustine, City of God, iv. 27. "As he has ignored the truth which
frees, it is right he is mistaken."
[44]Cicero, De officiis, iii, 17. "Concerning true law."
45Eccles. 3:19. "for all is vanity."
46Rom. 8:20-21. "It shall be delivered."
[47]Horace, Odes, III. xxix. 13. "Changes nearly always please the great."
48Seneca, Epistles, xx. 8. "In order that you are satisfied with yourself
and the good that is born from you."
[49]Montaigne, Essays, ii. 12.
50Cicero, De Divinatione, ii. 58. "There is nothing so absurd
Asif
SECTION IX: PERPETUITY
589. On the fact that the Christian religion is not the only religion.--So
far is this from being a reason for believing that it is not the true one
that, on the contrary, it makes us see that it is so.
590. Men must be sincere in all religions; true heathens, true Jews, true
Christians.
591. J. C.
Heathens | Mahomet
\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . /
Ignorance of God
592. The falseness of other religions.--They have no witnesses. Jews have.
God defies other religions to produce such signs: Isaiah 43:9; 44:8.
593. History of China.--I believe only the histories, whose witnesses got
themselves killed.
Which is the more credible of the two, Moses or China?
It is not a question of seeing this summarily. I tell you there is in it
something to blind, and something to enlighten.
By this one word I destroy all your reasoning. "But China obscures," say
you; and I answer, "China obscures, but there is clearness to be found; seek
it."
Thus all that you say makes for one of the views and not at all against the
other.
So this serves, and does no harm.
We must, then, see this in detail; we must put the papers on the table.
594. Against the history of China.--The historians of Mexico, the five suns,
of which the last is only eight hundred years old.
The difference between a book accepted by a nation and one which makes a
nation.
595. Mahomet was without authority. His reasons, then, should have been very
strong, having only their own force. What does he say, then, that we must
believe him?
596. The Psalms are chanted throughout the whole world.
Who renders testimony to Mahomet? Himself. Jesus Christ desires His own
testimony to be as nothing.
The quality of witnesses
Srinivas Ganti
The heretics reproach us for this superstitious submission. This is to do
what they reproach us for...
Infidelity, not to believe in the Eucharist, because it is not seen.
Superstition to believe propositions. Faith, etc.
256. I say there are few true Christians, even as regards faith. There are
many who believe but from superstition. There are many who do not believe
solely from wickedness. Few are between the two.
In this I do not include those who are of truly pious character, nor all
those who believe from a feeling in their heart.
257. There are only three kinds of persons; those who serve God, having
found Him; others who are occupied in seeking Him, not having found Him;
while the remainder live without seeking Him and without having found Him.
The first are reasonable and happy, the last are foolish and unhappy; those
between are unhappy and reasonable.
258. Unusquisque sibi Deum fingit.[37]
Disgust
259. Ordinary people have the power of not thinking of that about which they
do not wish to think. "Do not meditate on the passages about the Messiah,
said the Jew to his son. Thus our people often act. Thus are false religions
preserved, and even the true one, in regard to many persons.
But there are some who have not the power of thus preventing thought, and
who think so much the more as they are forbidden. These undo false religions
and even the
Surjit Singh
should sincerely seek Him. He has willed to make himself quite recognisable
by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all
their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their
heart, He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of
Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not.
There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity
for those who have a contrary disposition."
431. No other religion has recognised that man is the most excellent
creature. Some, which have quite recognised the reality of his excellence,
have considered as mean and ungrateful the low opinions which men naturally
have of themselves; and others, which have thoroughly recognised how real is
this vileness, have treated with proud ridicule those feelings of greatness,
which are equally natural to man.
"Lift your eyes to God," say the first; "see Him whom you resemble and
Artnut
man is free from vice and misery; in Him is all our virtue and all our
happiness. Apart from Him there is but vice, misery, darkness, death,
despair.
547. We know God only by Jesus Christ. Without this mediator, all communion
with God is taken away; through Jesus Christ we know God. All those who have
claimed to know God, and to prove Him without Jesus Christ, have had only
weak proofs. But in proof of Jesus Christ we have the prophecies, which are
solid and palpable proofs. And these prophecies, being accomplished and
proved true by the event, mark the certainty of these truths and, therefore,
the divinity of Christ. In Him, then, and through Him, we know God. Apart
from Him, and without the Scripture, without original sin, without a
necessary mediator promised and come, we cannot absolutely prove God, nor
teach right doctrine and right morality. But through Jesus Christ, and in
Jesus Christ, we prove God, and teach morality and doctrine. Jesus Christ
is, then, the true God of men.
But we know at t
Abhijit
of religion, have led me most quickly to the true one.
SECTION VII: MORALITY AND DOCTRINE
425. Second part.--That man without faith cannot know the true good, nor
justice.
All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means
they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and
of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different
views. The will never takes the least step but to this object. This is the
motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves.
And yet, after such a great number of years, no one without faith has
reached the point to which all continually look. All complain, princes and
subjects, noblemen and commoners, old and young, strong and weak, learned
and ignorant, healthy and sick, of all countries, all times, all ages, and
all conditions.
A trial so long, so continuous, and so uniform, should certainly convince us
of our inability to reach the good by our own efforts. But example teaches
us little. No resemblance is ever so perfect that there is not some slight
difference; and hence we expect that our hope will not be deceived on this
occasion as before. And thus, while the present never satisfies us,
experience dupes us and, from misfortune to misfortune, leads us to death,
their eternal crown.
What is it, then, that this desire and this inability proclaim to us, but
that there was once in man a true happiness of which there now remain to him
only the mark and empty trace, which he in vain tries to fill from all his
surroundings, seeking from things absent the help he does not obtain in
things present? But these are all inadequate, because the infinite abyss can
only be fi
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
Jesus Christ, who brought the remedy for their lust.
665. Charity is not a figurative precept. It is dreadful to say that Jesus
Christ, who came to take away types in order to establish the truth, came
only to establish the type of charity, in order to take away the existing
reality which was there before.
"If the light be darkness, how great is that darkness!"
666. Fascination. Somnum suum.118 Figura hujus mundi.119
The Eucharist. Comedes panem tuum.120 Panem nostrum.121
Inimici Dei terram lingent.122 Sinners lick the dust, that is to say, love
earthly pleasures.
The Old Testament contains the types of future joy, and the New contains the
means of arriving at it. The types were of joy; the means of penitence; and
nevertheless the Paschal Lamb was eaten with bitter herbs, cum
amaritudinibus.123
Singularis sum ego donec transeam.124 Jesus Christ before His death was
almost the only martyr.
667. Typical.--The expressions sword, shield. Potentissime.[125]
668. We are estranged only by departing from charity. Our prayers and our
virtues are abominable before God, if they are not the prayers and the
virtues of Jesus Christ. And our sins will never be the object of mercy, but
of the justice of God, if they are not Jesus Christ. He has adopted our
sins, and has us into union, for virtues are His own, and sins are foreign
to Him; while virtues are foreign to us, and our sins are our own.
Let us change the rule which we have hitherto chosen for judging what is
good. We had our own will as our rule. Let us now take the will of God; all
that He wills is good and right to u
kcp
kcp
> what is all this spam ?
i noticed that when we reply...one more group gets added to the
senders list : rec.models.rockets ?? why is that ? is it creating
spam ?
kcp
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
It is spam. Past experience indicates that Google/Admin will do
nothing about it, even if you complain. Remember the postings about
MI5, I complained several times and nothing ever happened.
Pramod
> On Jan 8, 11:34 am, Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
> <sanjeev.ramabhad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 8, 12:19 am, Niketan <niketan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I am really surprised that Majrooh-saab actually said that considering
> > > that his greatest
> > > hits were with R.D Burman.
>
> > Majrooh's greatest hits with *RDB*?? Big news to me.
>
> > Sanjeev
>
> Let's count Majrooh's ALL hits with all major music directors with
> whom he worked. Criteria and source of 'ALL hits': At least a decent
> run of at least 1-2 songs (from a single film) in weekly shows of
> Binaca Geet Mala, and/or memorable run in public awareness.
>
> 1. Naushad: Shahjahan (1946), Andaz (1949), Saathi (1968), Taangewaala
> (1972) = Total 4
>
> 2. O.P. Nayyar: Aar Paar (1954), Mangu (1954), Mr. and Mrs. 55 (1955),
> Bhaagam Bhaag (1956), C.I.D. (1956), Hum Sab Chor Hain (1956), Tumsa
> Nahin Dekha (1957), 12 O 'Clock (1958), Kabhi Andhera Kabhi Ujaala
> (1958), Mujrim (1958), Phir Wohi Dil Laya Hoon (1964), Mere Sanam
> (1965) = Total 12
>
> 3. S.D. Burman: Nau Do Gyarah (1957), Paying Guest (1957), Chalti Ka
> Naam Gaadi (1958), Kala Pani (1958), Laajwanti (1958), Sitaaron Se
> Aage (1958), Solvaan Saal (1958), Sujata (1959), Bambai Ka Babu
> (1960), Manzil (1960), Baat Ek Raat Ki (1962), Dr. Vidya (1962), Teen
> Deviyan (1965), Jewel Thief (1967), Talash (1969), Abhimaan (1973),
> Phagun (1973), Sagina (1974) = Total 18
>
> 4. Madan Mohan: Baaghi (1953), Aakhri Dao (1958), Night Club (1958),
> Akeli Mat Jaiyyo (1963), Chirag (1969), Dastak (1970) = Total 6
>
> 5. Anil Biswas: Fareb (1953), Waaris (1954), Heer (1956), Paisa Hi
> Paisa (1956) = Total 4
>
> 6. Khayyam: Footpath (1953), Dhobi Doctor (1954), Mohabbat Isko Kehte
> Hain (1965) = Total 3
>
> 7. Roshan: Chandni Chowk (1954), Aarti (1962), Bheegi Raat (1965),
> Dadi Maa (1966), Mamta (1966) = Total 5
>
> 8. Husnlal Bhagatram: Shama Parwaana (1954) = Total 1
>
> 9. Hemant Kumar: Ek Hi Raasta (1956) = Total 1
>
> 10. Salil Chowdhary: Apraadhi Kaun (1957), Maaya (1961) = Total 2
>
> 11. N. Datta: Mr. X (1957), Jaalsaaz (1959) = Total 2
>
> 12. Ravi: Dilli Ka Thug (1958), Ghar Sansaar (1958), Tu Nahin Aur Sahi
> (1960), China Town (1962) = Total 4
>
> 13. Vasant Desai: Ardhaangini (1959) = Total 1
>
> 14. Usha Khanna: Dil Deke Dekho (1959) = Total 1
>
> 15. Chitragupt: Kaali Topi Laal Roomaal (1959), Baraat (1960), Hum
> Matwaale Naujawaan (1961), Opera House (1961), Burma Road (1962), Main
> Shaadi Karne Chala (1962), Ek Raaz (1963), Ganga Ki Lehren (1964),
> Aakashdeep (1965), Oonche Log (1965), Pardesi (1970) = Total 11
>
> 16. C. Ramchandra: Sarhad (1960) = Total 1
>
> 17. Kishore Kumar: Jhumroo (1961) = Total 1
>
> 18. Laxmikant-Pyarelal: Dosti (1964), Dillagi (1966), Mere Laal
> (1966), Patthar Ke Sanam (1967), Shagird (1967), Bahaaron Ki Manzil
> (1968), Mere Hamdam Mere Dost (1968), Dharti Kahe Pukaar Ke (1969),
> Pyaasi Shaam (1969), Waapas (1969), Abhinetri (1970), Jal Bin Machhli
> Nritya Bin Bijli (1971), Ek Nazar (1972), Anokhi Ada (1973), Imtihaan
> (1974), Anaadi (1975), Dus Nambari (1976) = Total 17
>
> 19. Kalyanji-Anandji: Ishaara (1964) = Total 1
>
> 20. R.D. Burman: Teesri Manzil (1966), Bahaaron Ke Sapne (1967),
> Abhilasha (1968), Pyaar Ka Mausam (1969), Ehsaan (1970), Raaton Ka
> Raja (1970), Buddha Mil Gaya (1971), Caravan (1971), Mela (1971), Dil
> Ka Raaja (1972), Do Chor (1972), Gomti Ke Kinaare (1972), Mere Jeevan
> Saathi (1972), Raakhi Aur Hathkadi (1972), Rampur Ka Lakshman (1972),
> Samaadhi (1972), Savera (1972), Anamika (1973), Bandhe Haath (1973),
> Do Phool (1973), Double Cross (1973), Daulat Ke Dushman (1973), Yaadon
> Ki Baraat (1973), Benaam (1974), Goonj (1974), Khote Sikkey (1974),
> Madhosh (1974), Phir Kab Milogi (1974), Zehreela Insaan (1974), Dharam
> Karam (1975), Kala Sona (1975), Chandi Sona (1977), Hum Kisise Kam
> Naheen (1977), Heeralal Pannalal (1978), Naukar (1979), Aanchal
> (1980), Bulandi (1980), Dhan Daulat (1980), Jal Mahal (1980), Phir
> Wohi Raat (1980), Jail Yaatra (1981), Kaalia (1981), Zamaane Ko
> Dikhaana Hai (1981), Bade Dilwaala (1982), Jhutha Sach (1984), Manzil
> Manzil (1984), Sitamgar (1984), Savere Waali Gaadi (1985), Zabardast
> (1985), Inaam Dus Hazaar (1987), Gurudev (1993) = Total 51
>
> 21. Ghulam Mohammed: Pakeezah (1971) = Total 1
>
> 22. Rajesh Roshan: Kunwaara Baap (1974), Udhaar Ka Sindoor (1976),
> Ginny Aur Johnny (1976), Doosara Aadmi (1977), Jai Vijay (1977), Janta
> Hawaldar (1979), Kala Patthar (1979) = Total 7
>
> 23. Basu-Manohari: Sabse Bada Rupaiyya (1976) = Total 1
>
> 24. Vanraj Bhatia: Bhumika (1977) = Total 1
>
> 25. Hemant Bhosle: Taxi Taxie (1977) = Total 1
>
> 26. Anand-Milind: Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak (1988), maybe a couple more =
> Total 3-4
>
> 27. Jatin-Lalit: Jo Jeeta Wohi Sikandar (1992), plus a couple more =
> Total 3-5
>
> I have not included RDB-Majrooh films, like Parchhaiyaan (1972) and
> Hifaazat (1973), both of which had at least 1 brilliant song, because
> they sank without trace then and only a few fans might appreciate them
> today. Anyway, number 51 (of hit films that RDB and Majrooh did
> together) is there for you and all to see. Also, notice how RDB
> sustained Majrooh's career in the '70s and '80s, when Majrooh hardly
> worked with anyone else.
>
> I am also surprised by Majoorh's statement (given to Irfan Sahab) that
> RDB did not understand poetry. If he indeed said it, I would say he
> was being thankless. Anyway, what tough poetry he wrote that RDB
> could not understand? In an interview in Filmfare in the early '90s
> he praised RDB for understanding his poetry/ghazals and taking it to
> masses (I will be visiting India soon and will try to bring back a
> copy of that interview if I can find it in TOI archive in Mumbai). He
> specifically mentioned two of his poetry/ghazals in this context:
> 'diiwaanaa mujhasaa nahii.n' (Teesri Manzil, 1966) and 'churaa liyaa
> hai tumane jo dil ko' (Yaadon Ki Baraat, 1973).
>
> He might have been talking thoughtlessly with Irfan Sahab, I
> suppose.
>
> Asif
Great job Asif!
You really jump in to defend Pancham! I admire it!
regrds
Pramod
Pramod
> On Jan 7, 10:47 pm, arunk...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Public memory being short, it is important to maintain proper
> > perspective. With the increasing coteric adulation accorded to the
> > yonger (RD) Burman, the new generation seems to forget that he was
> > only second best to the Elder (SD) Burman.
>
> > "Rekhte ke ustaad tum hi nahin Ghalib, kehte hain kisi jamaane me koi
> > Mir bhi tha".
>
> Well said.
> Not only SDB, but also the other greats of 50s and 60s are far
> superior to RDB.
>
> RDB has nothing to show that is better than SDB's 'Guide', "Pyaasa',
> Kaagaz Ke Phool', 'Bombai Ka Babu'
> 'Taxi Driver', 'Chalti Ka Naam Gadi', "Paying Guest', 'Bandini',
> 'Sharmilee' to name a few.
>
> Regards
> Sukesh
Well, personally I don't understand this thing of superior or
inferior.
Pancham, S D burman, Madan Mohan, Naushad, Shankar jaikishan, C
Ramchandra were all great music directors.
Enjoy them. Bring their plus point afore. Share with other people the
points you enjoy. Share your knowledge rather than saying bluntly he
is better than the other.
This just creates ill-feeling!
regards
Pramod
shooganpr...@yahoo.co.in
OK, let me rephrase that.
IMO, not only SDB, but also the other greats of 50s and 60s are
superior to RDB.
In my personal ranking, RDB would be somewhere around 20th on the
list.
One of the composers above RDB would be Kishore Kumar. He did about 4
or 5 films, but he did a fine job.
LP would be ranked below RDB.
My personal favourites of RDB are "Chhote Nawab", "Teesri Manzil" &
"Aandhi" and then one or two songs each from few other albums. This
may be on account of my musical tastes being old fashioned and my
ranking of RDB should not be construed as RDB bashing.
Regards
Sukesh
shri37
> On Jan 10, 9:59 am, Asif <alvi.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 10, 12:31 pm, "naniwadekar" <nani3ski...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Asif" <alvi.asif at gmail.com> wrote :
>
> > > > He enjoyed working withMajroohtoo - 65 films, do
> > > > you know? His
>
> > > Assuming that R D Burman liked working withMajrooh,
> > > how about the reverse? DidMajroohlike working
> > > with RDB? Sharad Pawar was part of Congress under
> > > Sonia Gandhi's leadership. Even today his party has
> > > a partnership with Congress. It doesn't automatically
> > > mean that he accepted her leadership or likes the
> > > present arrangement. Judging by whatMajroohtold
> > > Shri Irfan Anwar, he must have disliked working with
> > > R D Burman at least to some extent. (I don't know
> > > whetherMajroohwas a sensible listener, so would
> > > not like to guess what he might have thought of R D
> > > Burman's 'music'.) You are not making a whole
> > > lot of sense if you insist thatMajroohwas more
> > > likely being sincere in his public pronouncements on
> > > R D Burman than in a private setting with Irfan and
> > > two other lyricists where he was in a better position
> > > to speak honestly.
>
> > > - dn
>
> > Well, the point is not whether or notMajroohliked working with RDB
> > - he never said it anywhere, I hope - more likely, he enjoyed working
> > with him. The point is why he thought that RDB did not understand his
> > poetry, and that's what the main discussion is all about and that's
> > why I would have asked questions toMajroohthe way I have listed in
> > another post - his being more or less honest in public/private setting
> > is not a point either. The point is why he had the seemingly
> > incorrect perception of RDB's understanding of poetry all his career
> > and yet continued to work with him right until 1993 - I would have
> > debated this point with him irrespective of the setting (private or
> > public).
>
> > When I said RDB enjoyed working withMajrooh(65 films and all) too,
> > it was just a response to an irrelevant point (RDB liked working with
> > Gulzar) raised by Sami Sahab.
>
> > Asif
>
> Asif bhai (I hope you do not mind me addressing you this way!) --
>
> I have been reading your posts in this thread with considerable
> interest. It seems that you have been trying to prove thatMajrooh
> was wrong in his opinion that RDB did not understand poetry.
> WhateverMajroohreally meant by that can be truly known toMajroohalone, but you have tried to demonstrate using the
> numbers of RDB+Majroohhits that RDB did understand poetry.
> This is where I feel I must ask a simple question --
>
> Is the number of hits a suitable indicator of the ability of an MD
> to understand poetry?
>
> I think not. What makes a song a hit is not whether the MD has
> understood the lyrics (or, in fact, whether the lyrics are worth
> undrestanding!), but how well the audience has responded to
> the song. A song with superlative lyrics composed by the best
> poetry-understanding MD can be a flop, just as a song with
> idiotic lyrics composed by the foolishest MD can be a hit of
> immense blockbuster proportions. Therefore, just because
> RDB had massive numbers of hits withMajrooh, does it follow
> that RDB understoodMajrooh'spoetry? I think not.
>
> I mean, what if RDB did not, in fact, understandMajrooh's
> poetry "right off the bat," but did afterMajroohexplained it?
> Why would that really be so bad? After all, RDB was not
> a lyricist, nor was he an Urdu/Hindi expert. So if he didn't
> understandMajrooh'swords right off the bat, I don't see
> how that is something that undermines RDB's skills as an
> MD, as long as he produced an enjoyable tune for the song.
>
> Besides, hasn't Gulzar said something very similar about
> RDB and his (Gulzar's) poetry? -- that RDB had trouble
> with what 'nasheman' was in 'is mo.D se jaate hai.n'?
> So what are we now going to prove that Gulzar was
> talking through his hat? -- because, well, after all, 'is
> mo.D se jaate hai.n' *IS* such a superaltive song! :-)
>
> Aaa...nyway, I think just because a song is a hit, it does
> NOT prove anything about its MD's poetry understanding
> skills or the lack thereof.
>
> -UVR.
I mean, what if RDB did not, in fact, understand Majrooh's
poetry "right off the bat," but did after Majrooh explained it?
Why would that really be so bad? After all, RDB was not
a lyricist, nor was he an Urdu/Hindi expert. So if he didn't
understand Majrooh's words right off the bat, I don't see
how that is something that undermines RDB's skills as an
MD, as long as he produced an enjoyable tune for the song.
UVR
Very well said.and vice versa Lyricist may not be very good at
music.good if he is but not absolutely necessary.
They are two different dept.and Lyricist should be good Lyricist and
like wise Music Director should be good MD.
Thanks UVR for putting it in right perspective
djri37
UVR
Afzal A. Khan wrote:
> UVR wrote:
>
> > On Jan 10, 1:23 pm, Abhijit <nanhafaris...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
> >> I don't see it possible to measure an MD's "understanding of poetry"
> >> anyway. But if "how nicely a tune reflects the mood of lyrics" is
> >> accepted as a hint, I think RDB is up there with other greats.
> >
> > Ok, agreed, more or less, but this STILL doesn't mean that RDB
> > understood (the mood of) the lyrics without help. But what is
> > wrong with that -- if he understood them *with* help and then
> > created good tunes, that's good enough for me.
> >
> > Basically, we, as listeners, don't have a way of knowing which
> > MD understood lyrics or and which one didn't. But I think we
> > don't even need to know this. If the song is good for me (by
> > my own personal yardstick), I couldn't care less. It's the same
> > thing about lyricists. I couldn't care less whether Shakeel or
> > Sahir understood the nuances of musical composition. If they
> > came up with excellent words for the tunes the MDs gave
> > them, why should it matter to me what musical credentials
> > Shakeel/Sahir had, or didn't have?
> >
> > -UVR.
>
>
>
> Please permit me to make one submission : I do believe that
> Naushad at least "understood" the nuances of poetry --- at
> least in the case of lyricists who wrote for his films.
>
>
> Afzal
Quite. And it may be that he was a better MD for it (better,
that is, than he would have been if he hadn't understood
said nuances). However, this may not be a factor that
played into the number of "hits" Naushad delivered.
Likewise, Sahir delivered hits with other MDs (e.g.,
Ravi) who, some would argue, possessed a lesser
knowledge of Urdu poetry than Naushad.
-UVR.
Afzal A. Khan
>
> Afzal A. Khan wrote:
>> UVR wrote:
>>> Basically, we, as listeners, don't have a way of knowing which
>>> MD understood lyrics or and which one didn't.
>>>
>>> -UVR.
>>
>>
>> Please permit me to make one submission : I do believe that
>> Naushad at least "understood" the nuances of poetry --- at
>> least in the case of lyricists who wrote for his films.
>>
>>
>> Afzal
>
> Quite. And it may be that he was a better MD for it (better,
> that is, than he would have been if he hadn't understood
> said nuances). However, this may not be a factor that
> played into the number of "hits" Naushad delivered.
> -UVR.
Then again, this could have been one of the (major)
factors in making his compositions such a hit with
people with whom the appropriate lyrics must have
struck a chord. Four or five examples should
suffice :
Shahjahan : Jab dil hi TooT gaya
Andaz : Tu kahe agar jeevan bhar
Dulari : Ai dil tujhe qasam hai
Amar : Insaaf ka mandir hai yeh
KHaamosh hai khewan~haar mira
Jaanewaale se mulaqaat na hone payee
Uran Khatola : Haal-e-dil maiN kya kahooN
Kohinoor : Dhal chuki shaam-e-GHam
ChaleNge teer jab dil par
Maybe, Sami MiaN can provide a fuller list !!
Afzal
Niketan
Whoa. Been away for some time and look what this post has become. I am
sorry one use of the word 'greatest' has led to this. My yardstick for
hit are hit songs -irrespective of the fate of the movie. e.g.: Mere
Jeevan Saathi movie was a flop - but the music score was a hit. The
second question was just a query on the SDB - Majrooh movies - not the
music - that i guess were hits. Honestly I did not know the fate of
the movies. But the main issue was and still remains surprising ' Why
did Majrooh say this about a composer with whom he had such a long
association and a hit track record?
- Imagine Hasrat-saab or Shakeel-saab saying something similar about
SJ or Naushad.
Regards
Niketan