Ek aur film, Ek aur lekh
Anand Tiwari
Hi everybody,
I have posted a couple of articles and have mostly
discussed specific films and their music. The choice of films is
very arbitary and random. Probably i prefer to write about films
which have left a lasting impression in some way on my mind. Hindi
cinema of the bygone days has seen a plethora of great directors
Bimal Roy, Guru Dutt, Vijay Anand etc but there is one person
whom not only the movie going public but also the industry salutes
and that is Raj Kapoor.
IMHO Raj Kapoor, though he was not in the Bimal Roy, Guru Dutt league
was definitely a person who knew the pulse of the public. It is true
he made some highly avoidable films in the post "Mera naam joker"
phase but probably because he realised that our "general movie
going" public wants their moneys worth back after 3 hours. Raj Kapoor
was a first rate editor* (though he did not have an A.F.E degree he
was accepted by the editor's association) and a man who had a feel
for "popular music". He knew how to play a variety of instruments
and even though he was not musically literate like say Kishore Kumar
he was quite familiar with the intricacies of music. A definite
assertion which can be made about him is that he had all the tunes
which he wanted to use in his films in his mind much before he
even conceived the film. To give an example if you watch "AAH" (1953)
carefully you shall find the tune of "Jaane kahan gaye woh din".
in the background.
For more examples we can refer to K.Bikram Singh's article in
the special issue of FF released on the occasion of his death. MrSingh
goes one step further and states that SJ or for that matter any
music director who composed for RK composed only what RK wanted
to be composed. He had a definite idea of the tune and the MD gave
shape to his "idea". This is just to provide an example of his
genius and not to pull down any MD.
Of the many movies made by RK "Awaara" is my all time favourite.
But in this article i choose not to speak about it. Raj Kapoor
was an entertainer and a SHOWMAN. So let us speak of the movie
which has his showmanship at its BEST. In short i am speaking about
SANGAM (1964)
-------------
Sangam was a blizzard of a box office hit. Its record among RK films
was probably broken by Ram Teri Ganga Maili. Sangam has a lot of
background to it and i shall first speak about the background.
Way back in 1948 Mehboob Khan made a class film called "ANDAZ"
which starred RK, Nargis and Dilip Kumar and so the idea of a movie
which RK intially named "Gharonda" was born. When he finally decided
to make the film he was inspired by the casting of "Andaz" and so
he approached Yusuf saab and narrated the story.
As Shammi Kapoor puts it in his interview in the series "Potrait
of a director" Yusuf saab reportedly told RK that he did not mind
doing this or that role but he wanted a third director to it. RK
could not reconcile to this demand because the movie was his baby
and so Rajendra "Jubilee" Kumar stepped in. By that time the Nargis
phase in RK's films and life was over and he decided to get the reigning
queen Vyjantimala to play the female lead.
Another interesting anecdote about the casting from Mr Singh's article
is as follows. Vyjantimala was in Madras and RK send a cable to her to
confirm her acceptance which had the message "Bol Radha Bol Sangam hoga
ke nahin" and the reply was of course "Sangam Hoga hoga hoga". And so
a great hit was born.
Sangam was the first RK movie to be shot in colour. Also the first
movie which was shot on European locales. The huge surety amount
was provided by a very famous Indian family who named their flagship
company after this movie. Sangam was a very lengthy film 6346.98 meters
to be exact and had a running time of roughly four hours. It had two
"intermissions" (probably the first time the word was used in a Hindi
film).
The great thing about this film and about RK's direction is that
he manages to hold the interest of the viewer for such a long period
of time. The story written by Inder Raj Anand has many flaws but RK
manages to tell his story with great confidence. Not once does he loose
grip over the film. He is aided in his master story telling act by
SJ's popular and melodious music. Right from Bol Radha Bol to O mere
Sanam all the songs are chartbuster's.
A very important point about the music of Sangam is that till this
movie all title song compositions for RK films was by Shankar. However
for the first time Jaikishan composed the music of the title song "Bol
Radha Bol". Till then it was a pact between S & J that S would compose
the title soundtrack and J would do the compositions which involved
some sort of dance movements (A song recently referred to on RMIM was
" Jhanan Jhanan Ghungharva Baaje" from AAH and which is a Jaikishan
composition.) In keeping with the tradition of RK music we have a soundtrack
which is simple but highly enjoyable audio-visually. My personal favourite
is "yeh mera prem patra" which has some great shots of the moon, the grass,
& the sky before the actual sequence begins.
The party scene in SANGAM is perhaps the best for any RK film and the
song for the occasion is "har dil jo pyaar karega" sung by Mukesh, Lata ji
and Mahendra Kapoor. Wonder why Rafi saab was not asked to sing for
Jubilee Kumar. However throughout the film Vyjantimala looks great in
various types of whites (She wears white in the entire film except
for one shot where she comes down the stairs in a pink sari). RK takes
full points again for picturising "Dost Dost na Raha" in a novel manner.
He sings the mukhda but the antras are picturised with a background
of Jubilee Kumar (JK) and Vyjantimala's eyes. If you see the film JK is
very faithful to his friend (perhaps too much in a sick fashion)
and the song is about unfaithfulness and dishonesty. But even then RK
is able to give a good picturisation.
Lata ji perhaps gives her best in the "O mere sanam" song where she
sounds excedingly sweet and sings the beginning notes to perfection.
A fact about film songs is that (in my opinion) however good they sound
on audio a considerable impact is lost if the picturisation is not
up to the mark.
What impressed me most about the film is that even though the story
is hackneyed, the topic of the love triangle one of the most
abused in our cinema, still RK comes up with a very enjoyable product
which keeps you enetertained for an whole evening (if you watch it
on video). I saw the movie 2 times in a theatre in Allahabad to just
know where RK put his 2 intervals. The first time the interval was
when JK realizes RK is alive and the second time when the couple
are on their Europe tour.
To end it Sangam (4 years in the making) set the stage for RK's
biggest mistake commercially (Mera Naam Joker). RK was even honored with
a honorary doctorate from the Tehran university after the success of this
film. It is one of my 3 favourite films which have
the love triangle as the backdrop the other two being ANDAZ (1948)
and IJAAZAT (1988).
IMHO Sangam may not be GREAT cinema but it is certainly popular
cinema at its BEST.
Any additions and/or corrections are welcome.
regards
Anand
* RK features in the credits as an editor for the first time and
won a FF award for it. The editing of the movie is certainly
a high point in this film's making.
** I have omitted a lot of trivia but i hope that it makes an
enjoyable reading.
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan
Anand Tiwari wrote:
Thanks a ton for a fine article. RK has been discussed very little on rmim.
> cinema of the bygone days has seen a plethora of great directors
> Bimal Roy, Guru Dutt, Vijay Anand etc but there is one person
> whom not only the movie going public but also the industry salutes
> and that is Raj Kapoor.
I guess you did not mention Hrishikesh M. (my favorite director) since he is
in a class by himself.
> for "popular music". He knew how to play a variety of instruments
> and even though he was not musically literate like say Kishore Kumar
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
say what ???
:-)
Yesrafidas.
Shetty
an...@cegt201.bradley.edu (Anand Tiwari) wrote:
SANGAM (1964)
-------------
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anand,
U forgot to mention the best song (IMHO) of the movie (well I guess
I like Dost dost na raha better, b'coz of the depth in Mukesh's voice). I get
goose bumps every time I hear this song. I thought "O' Mehabooba O' Mehbooba,
Is Dil ke paas hi hai meri manjil'e mastooq (??)"was picturised very well.
Have yet to see anyone dance so gracefully on a tiny boat.
Now that I think about it....I must have seen this movie some 20
years ago (atleast), but I still rememeber a lot of stuff....Do u remember
the english/swedish (??) song when RK/VyJ.M are in the swiss alps? I think
it goes something like "Islube do...I love...ya lub luba...I love U" or
something sounding similar.
Thanx, I guess U jsst made my weekend. :-) I am going to
rent this one for sure.
-Naveen
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Harish Suvarna
an...@cegt201.bradley.edu (Anand Tiwari) wrote:
Nice Article Anand. Thanx.
Sangam....
----------
I have seen it only once 10 years before in Hyderabad. That day for matinee
I went to 'Sangam' in Secunderabad and immediately caught a city bus No 7.
to Abids, Hyderabad to see 'Chori Chori' in Zamarrud or Palace for first show.
I donot remember exactly all the scenes in Sangam and it did'nt leave me a great
impression. My head was heavy after that film. It called for Two cups of hyderabad
iraani chai.
This was not the case with
the first show. Chori Chori took off all the heavyness and filled me with
joy/lightness. I was in pleasant moods after Chori Chori. I will just write
my what I "felt" after Sangam.
Sangam, I think was first color film for Raj Kapur. First film where I clearly
observed him to have lost his 'handsomeness'. He became fat, with some foldings
in the face too.
The film was lengthier than necessary. I felt looongish after sometime and
with somuch seriousness in the film in the end. Rak Kapur himself was the cause
for this both as a director and as an actor. As an actor there was an element
of 'overacting'. Unnecessarily screaming his dialogues eventhough he could have
said in a lighter tone. To me Jubilee Kumar did well than Raj Kapur. It is not
becuase he dies in the film but by not overacting. Raj Kapur was'nt in his usual
role of bhola-bhala as in Anari,Jis deshme ganga behati hai, sri420, dulha-dulhan
etc etc. I felt that his role was of a demanding/intense lover. I do not remember
the scenes or dialogues exactly. It is perhaps his first film where he portrayed
himself a little negative by marrying the girl, love of someone else (though
unknowingly) there by losing the sympathy from viewers.
Most songs I would say are 'popular'. The pick being 'Dost Dost Na Rahaa' and
'O mere Sanam', 'Ye meraa prem patr..'. Lata just pours her soul into O mere sanam.
The beginning aalaapna is so sweet. I felt it were tobe better had it been only
a solo. I do not know about others but 'Bol Radha Bol' totally irritated me. First,
Mukhesh singing such a song, next the picturisation where RK acts the role of
his forthcoming 'mera naam joker..' I personally feel that RK did the same mistake
of unnecessarily 'lengthening' the film in Mera Naam Joker too. Vyjayantimaala,
who was a better dancer than actress did'nt have any challenging content in her role.
Nevertheless she was attractive in some places (definitely not in 'mujhe buddha mil gaya.)
But the shots in Switzerland ( I guess) were too good. On the whole it did'nt leave
me with an impression of seeing it again and again. Chori Chori did that. What a film was
it. Wow !!!. RK and nargis were at their best......
--
Harish Suvarna
su...@mti.sgi.com
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan
From: Anand Tiwari on Tue, Aug 6, 1996 15:17
> Anand Tiwari wrote:
>
> Thanks a ton for a fine article. RK has been discussed very little on rmim.
>
>
> > Bimal Roy, Guru Dutt, Vijay Anand etc but there is one person
> > whom not only the movie going public but also the industry salutes
> > and that is Raj Kapoor.
> I guess you did not mention Hrishikesh M. (my favorite director) since he is
> in a class by himself.
Hi Ramesh,
I am myself a great fan of HM and the only reason i
did not mention his name is because of RK, GD and BR are a
little senior in comparison to HM and i did not want to
make a comparison (or hint at it) because it might offend
some RK fans.
> > for "popular music". He knew how to play a variety of instruments
> > and even though he was not musically literate like say Kishore Kumar
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> say what ???
>
RK was great at the dafli and played the banjo. He knew a little
bit of everything. All this did not go into the article because i
felt it was getting very long and i was not sure of the reactions
when i wrote it.
regards
Anand
Anand,
My "say what?" was merely a sarcasm towards calling Kishore musically
literate. To call him a musical genius or with very high level of intuitive
feel for music is one thing, but he was anything but literate in music.
Thanks for your reply.
Yesrafidas.
.ps. BTW in my own book (and I understand we are all free to have
opinions), HM stands head and shoulders above Guru Dutt [depressing
movies :-), jeez.. this guy had a beautiful woman, a great career and still
chose to whine] and Raj Kapoor (horny-dude who exploited too many
women at a age when most old people go around chanting "Krishna, Rama,
Govinda" :-) ]. I however have GREAT respect for Bimal Roy and Basu
Chatterjee's works.
Dinkar Sitaram
an...@cegt201.bradley.edu (Anand Tiwari) wrote:
>
A very nice and enjoyable article.
>
>IMHO Raj Kapoor, though he was not in the Bimal Roy, Guru Dutt league
>was definitely a person who knew the pulse of the public.
age of 24, when most people are just graduating from college, he owned
a film studio! Also, he is clearly one of the few Indian film artistes
who made an effort to popularize their work abroad.
> A definite
>assertion which can be made about him is that he had all the tunes
>which he wanted to use in his films in his mind much before he
>even conceived the film. To give an example if you watch "AAH" (1953)
>carefully you shall find the tune of "Jaane kahan gaye woh din".
>in the background.
Perhaps this tune was in SJ's mind?
>For more examples we can refer to K.Bikram Singh's article in
>the special issue of FF released on the occasion of his death. MrSingh
>goes one step further and states that SJ or for that matter any
>music director who composed for RK composed only what RK wanted
>to be composed. He had a definite idea of the tune and the MD gave
>shape to his "idea".
Hm - before accepting this, I would like to know what basis Mr.
Singh had for his assertion. For example, I recently read an
article by Majrooh Sultanpuri in which he discussed the teamwork
between himself, Shailendra, SJ, Mukesh and RK. He stated that
(1) RK always tried to advance the plot through the song (2) RK
always knew what mood he needed (3) He frequently wrote the
words of the mukhda (I forget the examples). However, he does not
say that RK used to suggest tunes. This is the kind of
first-hand evidence that I believe.
>SANGAM (1964)
>-------------
I agree with all the nice things you said about Sangam. A couple of
caveats:
(1) RK's decision to cast himself as the hero is debatable. RK undoubtedly
acts well, but (particularly in the earlier sequences) looks too old
and overweight.
(2) Even though all the songs were blockbusters, the Filmfare award for
best song did not go to Sangam but to Lakshmikant-Pyarelal for their
song from Dosti (I don't remember which one).
>
>The party scene in SANGAM is perhaps the best for any RK film and the
>song for the occasion is "har dil jo pyaar karega" sung by Mukesh, Lata ji
>and Mahendra Kapoor.
Heartily agree. This is a classic scene.
>
>IMHO Sangam may not be GREAT cinema but it is certainly popular
>cinema at its BEST.
What is the difference?
Regards,
Dinkar
Anand Tiwari
Hi everybody,
I received a mail from Ramesh from which i get the impression
that i wrote KK was musically literate. In fact i wanted to say that RK
like KK was NOT musically literate and both had a common intutive feel
for music. The sentence probably leads you to think otherwise. The
fault lies entirely with my sentence construction.
regards
Anand
Anand Tiwari
In article <4u82pe$g...@watnews2.watson.ibm.com>, Dinkar says...
>>was definitely a person who knew the pulse of the public.
>age of 24, when most people are just graduating from college, he owned
>a film studio! Also, he is clearly one of the few Indian film artistes
>who made an effort to popularize their work abroad.
>
>>assertion which can be made about him is that he had all the tunes
>>which he wanted to use in his films in his mind much before he
>>even conceived the film. To give an example if you watch "AAH" (1953)
>>carefully you shall find the tune of "Jaane kahan gaye woh din".
>>in the background.
>>For more examples we can refer to K.Bikram Singh's article in
>>the special issue of FF released on the occasion of his death. MrSingh
>>goes one step further and states that SJ or for that matter any
>>music director who composed for RK composed only what RK wanted
>>to be composed. He had a definite idea of the tune and the MD gave
>>shape to his "idea".
>Hm - before accepting this, I would like to know what basis Mr.
>Singh had for his assertion. For example, I recently read an
>article by Majrooh Sultanpuri in which he discussed the teamwork
>between himself, Shailendra, SJ, Mukesh and RK. He stated that
>(1) RK always tried to advance the plot through the song (2) RK
>always knew what mood he needed (3) He frequently wrote the
>words of the mukhda (I forget the examples). However, he does not
>say that RK used to suggest tunes. This is the kind of
>first-hand evidence that I believe.
Hi Dinkar,
I cannot provide any further evidence except that
the article which i quote is from FF , a colectors issue on RK's
death. I do not remember the article in its entirety. I have relied on
my memory for this post but i definitely remember the assertion/fact
being mentioned in the article. Perhaps i can post the article in
its entirety sometime. The title of the article was "The Last Mogul".
>
>>SANGAM (1964)
>>-------------
>I agree with all the nice things you said about Sangam. A couple of
>caveats:
>(1) RK's decision to cast himself as the hero is debatable. RK undoubtedly
> acts well, but (particularly in the earlier sequences) looks too old
> and overweight.
>(2) Even though all the songs were blockbusters, the Filmfare award for
> best song did not go to Sangam but to Lakshmikant-Pyarelal for their
> song from Dosti (I don't remember which one).
I have tried not to look at the specific aspects of casting except
for listing one of the anecdotes concerning Dilip Kumar not doing
the role. Yes Sangam did not win the best Music award. It won RK an
award for editing and Vyjantimala for her acting.
>>The party scene in SANGAM is perhaps the best for any RK film and the
>>song for the occasion is "har dil jo pyaar karega" sung by Mukesh, Lata ji
>>and Mahendra Kapoor.
>Heartily agree. This is a classic scene.
>>
>>IMHO Sangam may not be GREAT cinema but it is certainly popular
>>cinema at its BEST.
>What is the difference?
Yes while typing the sentence i thought that someone might ask
the question. Frankly it is my personal opinion. I would
categorize GREAT cinema as the movies of Satyajit Ray (Charulata,
Nayak, Kapurush, Seemabaddha etc ) , Guru Dutt (Pyaasa, Kagaz Ke
Phool, Saheb,Bibi aur Ghulam) , Raj Kapoor (Awaara) ,Vijay Anand
(Guide), Hrishikesh Mukherjee (Anand). By GREAT cinema i refer
to MILESTONES IMHO in film making. Sangam may be a commercial
milestone, a great film for the masses, a thoroughly enjoyable
experience but NOT GREAT CINEMA IMHO.(not a milestone in film making).
regards
Anand
"Jaane Kya Sochkar Likh Guzra"
>Regards,
>Dinkar
>
Anup
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
>
>
> RK was great at the dafli and played the banjo. He knew a little
> bit of everything. All this did not go into the article because i
> felt it was getting very long and i was not sure of the reactions
> when i wrote it.
> regards
> Anand
>
> Anand,
>
> My "say what?" was merely a sarcasm towards calling Kishore musically
> literate. To call him a musical genius or with very high level of intuitive
> feel for music is one thing, but he was anything but literate in music.
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
Say what? Some people are born music literate(read KK) and some
people have to work on it(read Rafi et. all) :-) to try to reach the
level of master(read KK again).
> Yesrafidas.
>
> .ps. BTW in my own book (and I understand we are all free to have
> opinions), HM stands head and shoulders above Guru Dutt [depressing
> movies :-), jeez.. this guy had a beautiful woman, a great career and still
> chose to whine] and Raj Kapoor (horny-dude who exploited too many
> women at a age when most old people go around chanting "Krishna, Rama,
> Govinda" :-) ]. I however have GREAT respect for Bimal Roy and Basu
> Chatterjee's works.
Ramesh, its time to slightly correct your books :-). Guru Dutt was
master and he made light movies like "Mr. and Mrs. 55", "Aar Paar"
too besides "CID"(not a depressing movie at all). His movies that
you claim to be depressing are really fine work of art. I always
prefer watching comedy over sad movies but there is something about
Guru Dutt's movies that just keeps you spellbound. Pyasaa, Sahib
Biwi aur Ghulam and Kagaz Ke Phool are classics and to be cherished
forever. His personal life is something
I am not a big fan of Raj Kapoor but his contribution to Indian
movies and music is enormous. I like most of his movies before
"Sangam" and "Prem Rog" after that. He did make some worthless
movies but as someone pointed out that he made a sincere effort
to popularize Indian movies abroad. He should be commended for
that.
I have no disagreement with you over the works of HM, Bimal Roy
and Basu Chatterjee. :-)
Cheers
Anup
--
*************************************************************************
* Anup Pandey *
* *
* All standard disclaimers apply. *
*************************************************************************
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan
Anup Pandey wrote:
>Say what? Some people are born music literate(read KK) and some
>people have to work on it(read Rafi et. all) :-) to try to reach the
>level of master(read KK again).
You are kidding, right ?
Excellent points re. Guru Dutt .. I need to see several of these movies. You
probably guessed that half my point of saying something out of line is to
bring out stimulating discussions like these .. in other words: "a flame
bait" :-)
Thanks Anup !
Yesrafidas.
Anup
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
>
> Anup Pandey wrote:
> >Say what? Some people are born music literate(read KK) and some
> >people have to work on it(read Rafi et. all) :-) to try to reach the
> >level of master(read KK again).
>
> You are kidding, right ?
>
No I am not. Are we fueling the war. O.K. I will try to be brief.
I admit Rafi being one of the greatest singers to grace Indian movies.
It was a herculean task to upstage him at any stage of his career. I
don't buy the argument that his voice was on the decline in 1970s.
He delivered really good songs in 1970s too. Kishore gave music to
some of his movies, why did'nt Rafi or for that matter Mukesh, Manna
Dey etc composed music for movies(My apologies if I am not aware of
any movies here).
What more music literacy you need if the person can give you evergreen
song(s), which is/are written by him, composed by him, sung by
him for his own playback. That shows the ultimate in music literacy
in my book. I hope it was brief. :-))
> Excellent points re. Guru Dutt .. I need to see several of these movies. You
> probably guessed that half my point of saying something out of line is to
> bring out stimulating discussions like these .. in other words: "a flame
> bait" :-)
>
> Thanks Anup !
>
Glad that we do agree in some points.
You are welcome. Guru Dutt was an intense actor. Kaifi Azami(lyrics
in Kagaz ke Phool) said about him being offered the job by Guru Dutt
"Tab logon ne kaha ke bahi isko(Kaifi) ko likhna aata hi hoga" (People
then realized that he(Kaifi) must know how to write as Guru Dutt is
asking him to write). Then he mentioned that unfortunately the
movie(unlike Guru Dutt's other movies) did'nt do well which affected
his(Kaifi's) career till he wrote for "Haqeeqat"(not a Guru Dutt movie
though).
> Yesrafidas.
U.V. Ravindra
In article <320777...@crd.ge.com>
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan <hari...@crd.ge.com> writes:
=> .ps. BTW in my own book (and I understand we are all free to have
=> opinions), HM stands head and shoulders above Guru Dutt [depressing
=> movies :-), jeez.. this guy had a beautiful woman, a great career and still
=> chose to whine] and Raj Kapoor (horny-dude who exploited too many
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=> women at a age when most old people go around chanting "Krishna, Rama,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=> Govinda" :-) ].
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I just remembered that in Delhi we used to call such people "THirk"-s.
(TH as in "THanDa THanDa paani") ... whether or not RK was a THirk is,
however, a debatable point.
=>I however have GREAT respect for Bimal Roy and Basu Chatterjee's works.
Me too.
Regards,
Ravindra.
Kuntal Shah
:> an...@cegt201.bradley.edu (Anand Tiwari) wrote:
:> However throughout the
:> film Vyjantimala looks great in various types of whites (She
:> wears white in the entire film except for one shot where she
:> comes down the stairs in a pink sari).
I feel she looked horrible in "budhdha mil gaya" song. I wonder
what made RK decide to picturize this song in this way.
I also wonder why RK choose name like "Gopaal" for JK's character.
Quite un-bolywoodistic, no ?
UVR, I am hereby filing patent for the word "bolywoodistic".
--
-Kuntal.
______________________________________________________________________
| is duniya meN ji nahiN sakta aadmi seedhasaada
| is liye maiN ban gaya veeru se veerudada
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bakulesh Thakker Ph (R) 507 289 1671
an...@cegt201.bradley.edu (Anand Tiwari) wrote:
>
>Hi everybody,
> I have posted a couple of articles and have mostly
>discussed specific films and their music. The choice of films is
>very arbitary and random. Probably i prefer to write about films
>which have left a lasting impression in some way on my mind. Hindi
>cinema of the bygone days has seen a plethora of great directors
>Bimal Roy, Guru Dutt, Vijay Anand etc but there is one person
>whom not only the movie going public but also the industry salutes
>and that is Raj Kapoor.
>
<lines deleted>
>Lata ji perhaps gives her best in the "O mere sanam" song where she
>sounds excedingly sweet and sings the beginning notes to perfection.
>A fact about film songs is that (in my opinion) however good they sound
>on audio a considerable impact is lost if the picturisation is not
>up to the mark. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
Agreed. I am reminded of Bimal Roy's Bandini. When chaaracter played by
Nutan (sorry, don't remember the name), prepares to leave home, in the
background we hear Mukesh's song:
O Jaanewale Ho Shake to Laut ke Anaa,
In the song there are lines (taken from ISB):
bachapan ke tere miit tere sa.ng ke sahaare
Dhuu.NDhe.nge tujhe galii\-galii sab ye Gam ke maare
puuchhegii har nigaah kal teraa Thikaanaa
o jaanevaale\threedots
Now but the situation faced by the lonely woman we see on screen happens
to be contrary to these words.
Anyway...
"O Mere Sanam ..." may be YOUR best Lata song for a RK movie, mine is:
O Basanti Pawan Pagal, Na Ja re Na Ja,
Roko koi ...
Regards. - Bakulesh Thakker.
Nitin Sharma
Anup (apa...@raynet.com) wrote:
: No I am not. Are we fueling the war. O.K. I will try to be brief.
...
: He delivered really good songs in 1970s too. Kishore gave music to
: some of his movies, why did'nt Rafi or for that matter Mukesh, Manna
: Dey etc composed music for movies(My apologies if I am not aware of
:
Oh, come on now, Arup.
I'm all for such friendly little wars, but please dont spoil
the fun by such non-arguments.
Its just like saying "Gavaskar isn't as good a cricketer as XYZ
because XYZ used to bowl also occasionally, whereas Gavaskar never
did" !
The fact is Gavaskar was a great batsman. He wasn't a bowler, and
never claimed to be one (not even his fans claimed that).
Does the fact that he never bowled mean he had any less understanding
of Cricket? Or conversely, does XYZ's occasional bowling give him
any superior understanding of the game than Gavaskar?
-nitin
ps: Rafi, Mukesh *have* composed ikka-dukka songs. Much of their
composition effort is as forgettable as Gavaskar's bowling. But even
among those, they have an equivalent of getting a Zaheer Abbas wicket! :-)
Bakulesh Thakker
In article <3207F4A3...@raynet.com>, Anup <apa...@raynet.com> says:
>
>Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
<lines deleted>
>> Anand,
>>
>> My "say what?" was merely a sarcasm towards calling Kishore musically
>> literate. To call him a musical genius or with very high level of intuitive
>> feel for music is one thing, but he was anything but literate in music.
>>
>> Thanks for your reply.
>>
>
>Say what? Some people are born music literate(read KK) and some
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think so what you mean is not literate, KK was not literate in music.
He intuitively understood music which is not same thing as being literate.
I think so more a good music literate you are, less good a movie singer
become.
>people have to work on it(read Rafi et. all) :-) to try to reach the
>level of master(read KK again).
>
>
>
>> Yesrafidas.
>>
<lines deleted>
>
>Ramesh, its time to slightly correct your books :-). Guru Dutt was
>master and he made light movies like "Mr. and Mrs. 55", "Aar Paar"
>too besides "CID"(not a depressing movie at all). His movies that
>you claim to be depressing are really fine work of art. I always
>prefer watching comedy over sad movies but there is something about
>Guru Dutt's movies that just keeps you spellbound. Pyasaa, Sahib
>Biwi aur Ghulam and Kagaz Ke Phool are classics and to be cherished
>forever. His personal life is something
Yet in his own lifetime he was not appreciated. I think so once he said that,
it is fate of all classic movie makers to be appreciated after their death.
Prophetic words!
>
>I am not a big fan of Raj Kapoor but his contribution to Indian
>movies and music is enormous. I like most of his movies before
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What was Raj Kapoor's contribution to music I dont know. I suppose
all movie directors make SOME contribution in the sense that it is their
job to describe what kind of music goes in their movies, but it is news
to me that RK made any contribution at all to music of his movies other
than this which can be recalled as "enormous". If you have any excerpts
from interviews with music directors who worked with him, like Shankar
Jaikishan, Salil Chowdhury, etc then I am sure RAMLI readers would love
to read them.
-Bakulesh Thakker.
Dinkar Sitaram
Anup <apa...@raynet.com> wrote:
>Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
>> [deleted]
>> chose to whine] and Raj Kapoor (horny-dude who exploited too many
>> Chatterjee's works.
>
>[deleted]
>I am not a big fan of Raj Kapoor but his contribution to Indian
>movies and music is enormous. I like most of his movies before
>movies but as someone pointed out that he made a sincere effort
>to popularize Indian movies abroad. He should be commended for
>that.
>
other accomplishments of Raj Kapoor:
(1) No one was better than Raj Kapoor at acting the role of a
simple villager - see for example Jagte Raho, Teesri Kasam
and Jis Desh Mein Ganga Behti Hain.
(2) He was one of the leading heroes of his generation (the other
two being Dev Anand and Dilip Kumar) who acted in a large
number of good films (e.g. Chhalia - a film about partition).
(3) I believe (and this was one of the points in the original
post) that he was unequalled at making intense, romantic
movies (Barsaat, Aah and Sangam). No wonder Sooraj
Barjatya (the maker of HAHK) acknowledged his debt to RK
during the Filmfare Awards ceremony.
Dinkar
Vijay Sundararajan
In article <4u8olt$6...@lex.zippo.com>,
Anand Tiwari <an...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>In article <4u82pe$g...@watnews2.watson.ibm.com>, Dinkar says...
>>
> to MILESTONES IMHO in film making. Sangam may be a commercial
> milestone, a great film for the masses, a thoroughly enjoyable
> experience but NOT GREAT CINEMA IMHO.(not a milestone in film making).
? ?
V
This is a sad day for the non-discernists when one, supposedly, among
them makes such an assertion.
I suppose there comes a time in the life of every RMIMer, when he
outgrows his boots and worse still his roots. If you observe the
active life time of any RMIMer you will see that the Ist phase
involves a period of active participation, the second phase is
an assumed air of 'gurudom' the third phase is just feeling too big
to take part in discussions.
I still don't understand why people need to complicate issues when
simple enjoyment is at hand.
I still can't figure out what makes say Do Bhiga zameen a greater
movie than Manthan or Patthar panchali greater than Ankur, the
only index I can see is popularity of the former(s) with the
critics and the 'sensitive intelligentsia' whose claim to sensitivity
lies in their widely regarded intelligence, who are possibly the only
intended audience for these movies.
Forever puzzled by needless complexity
-Vijay
Anand Tiwari
In article <c9686vr...@damayanti.india.ti.com>, kun...@india.ti.com says...
>
>
> :> an...@cegt201.bradley.edu (Anand Tiwari) wrote:
>
>
> :> However throughout the
> :> film Vyjantimala looks great in various types of whites (She
> :> wears white in the entire film except for one shot where she
> :> comes down the stairs in a pink sari).
>
> what made RK decide to picturize this song in this way.
>
> I also wonder why RK choose name like "Gopaal" for JK's character.
> Quite un-bolywoodistic, no ?
Hi Kuntal,
Regarding the picturisation of "Buddha Mil Gaya"
a lot of people have written that they did not like the way it was
executed. However the Buddha Mil Gaya song is itself a little
peculiar as far as the lyrics go.
The reason i believe the song was picturised in such a manner
was probably to drive home the fact about Radha's character
(here standing for the Indian woman of those days) that inspite
of her being docile (in most circumstances) she had it in her
to hold her husband if he tended to go astray (here his desire to
visit a striptease show).
RK's definition of a complete woman included the fact that she
could be very sensous (in fact he used other words which i cannot
use on a newsgroup). In my belief it was to highlight both Radha's
sensuality and to demonstrate how she could keep her husband in
control (RK simply imposes his views on the viewer).
JK's name in the movie is Gopal which is surely a little uncommon
in the Bollywood sense but i believe RK wants to create the impression
that the duo Gopal - Radha were in love with each other through the
names itself (a mere extrapolation of the mythological/religous fact).
In fact he chose a quite an uncommon name for himself too which is Sundar.
Could anyone provide a clue as to why he did this ?
regards
Anand
Bakulesh Thakker
In article <4ud1dn$4...@tribune.mayo.edu>, thakker....@mayo.edu (Bakulesh Thakker) says:
>
>In article <3207F4A3...@raynet.com>, Anup <apa...@raynet.com> says:
>>
>>Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
>
><lines deleted>
>
>>> Anand,
>>>
>>> My "say what?" was merely a sarcasm towards calling Kishore musically
>>> literate. To call him a musical genius or with very high level of intuitive
>>> feel for music is one thing, but he was anything but literate in music.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply.
>>>
>>
>>Say what? Some people are born music literate(read KK) and some
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I think so what you mean is not literate, KK was not literate in music.
>He intuitively understood music which is not same thing as being literate.
>I think so more a good music literate you are, less good a movie singer
>become.
<lines deleted>
>
>-Bakulesh Thakker.
KK acted in a Bengali movie with story line as follows:
There are two men looking alike. Both are played by KK. One guy
is literate in music. That is to say he is trained in Shashtriya Sangit
etc. Now it is misfortune of this guy to have to work as a music
director to a movie director who wants him to make popular more
western type music. One day by mistake the other KK goes to the
recording studio. He is taken for the other KK and doesnot know
anything about music and singing, but has to deliver a "tune" for a
song. So he starts singing. With no training he obviously copies some
rock and roll or some such thing, and immediately director sa'ab gives
him a Shaabash. The female leads were Mala Sinha and Ameeta X.
The Ameeta X is the other Ameeta in the movie Goonj Uthi Shehanai who
plays the other girl. I dont remember her surname.
The point of recalling this movie here is to buttress what I said earlier.
KK acted in another hindi movie where he plays two look alikes, but
probably the story was different. the movie's name was: Do Dunee Chaar.
-Bakulesh Thakker
U.V. Ravindra
In article <4udlqo$s...@epx.cis.umn.edu>
vi...@ee.ee.umn.edu (Vijay Sundararajan) writes:
=> > (Guide), Hrishikesh Mukherjee (Anand). By GREAT cinema i refer
=> > to MILESTONES IMHO in film making. Sangam may be a commercial
=> > milestone, a great film for the masses, a thoroughly enjoyable
=> > experience but NOT GREAT CINEMA IMHO.(not a milestone in film making).
=> ^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^????^^^^___^_^_^_^_^^^^^^^^^
=>
=> ? ?
=>
=> V
=> This is a sad day for the non-discernists when one, supposedly, among
=> them makes such an assertion.
=> I suppose there comes a time in the life of every RMIMer, when he
=> outgrows his boots and worse still his roots. If you observe the
=> active life time of any RMIMer you will see that the Ist phase
=> involves a period of active participation, the second phase is
=> an assumed air of 'gurudom' the third phase is just feeling too big
=> to take part in discussions.
=> I still don't understand why people need to complicate issues when
=> simple enjoyment is at hand.
=> I still can't figure out what makes say Do Bhiga zameen a greater
=> movie than Manthan or Patthar panchali greater than Ankur, the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A perfect example of the proverb that says "those who live in glass
houses ought not to throw stones at others" ;-)))))))))))0
=> only index I can see is popularity of the former(s) with the
=> critics and the 'sensitive intelligentsia' whose claim to sensitivity
=> lies in their widely regarded intelligence, who are possibly the only
=> intended audience for these movies.
=>
=> Forever puzzled by needless complexity
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the hallmark of RMIM, sir. One enjoys it and revels in it.
One doesn't get pained of it!
=> -Vijay
Ravindra.
U.V. Ravindra
In article <c9686vr...@damayanti.india.ti.com>
kun...@india.ti.com (Kuntal Shah) writes:
=> :> an...@cegt201.bradley.edu (Anand Tiwari) wrote:
=>
=>
=> :> However throughout the
=> :> film Vyjantimala looks great in various types of whites (She
=> :> wears white in the entire film except for one shot where she
=> :> comes down the stairs in a pink sari).
=>
=> I feel she looked horrible in "budhdha mil gaya" song. I wonder
=> what made RK decide to picturize this song in this way.
=>
=> I also wonder why RK choose name like "Gopaal" for JK's character.
=> Quite un-bolywoodistic, no ?
=>
=> UVR, I am hereby filing patent for the word "bolywoodistic".
=>
=> --
=> -Kuntal.
And RMIM, I am hereby awarding the patent for "bollywoodistic" to
Kuntal Shah.
Sami-bhai, maiN yeh THeek hi kar rahaa hooN, na?
;-))))
Ravindra.
Kuntal Shah
>>>>> ":" == Bakulesh Thakker <thakker....@mayo.edu> writes:
:> Yet in his own lifetime he was not appreciated. I think so
:> once he said that, it is fate of all classic movie makers to be
:> appreciated after their death. Prophetic words!
"ye kaisa mulk hai
ye kaisi zindagi
yaad humeN karte haiN kyoN
log mar jaane ke baad"
Remember from which movie these lines are ?
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan
Anup wrote:
> Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
Well ! :-)
> I admit Rafi being one of the greatest singers to grace Indian movies.
> It was a herculean task to upstage him at any stage of his career.
HEAR HEAR from a KKKlaner :-)
> What more music literacy you need if the person can give you evergreen
> song(s), which is/are written by him, composed by him, sung by
> him for his own playback. That shows the ultimate in music literacy
> in my book. I hope it was brief. :-))
Anup,
The word literate always refers to someone who has had _FORMAL_
traning. It's by this definition, that I am opposed to calling KK literate..
It is true that you would rather have someone who is good than someone
who is literate but bad .. Consider that a farmer who has tremendous
native intelligence but has never entered a classroom is called illiterate,
while even a dumb guy who clears 10th class by 37% is called literate. :-)
Although the example above sounds ridiculous, consider that some of the
conventional exercises in classical music such as "taans" and "aalap" were
by and large beyond KK. You could argue that these deficiencies were not
because he was incapable, but was just never exposed. But that still
doesn't make him literate.
I share your admiration for KK's native feel for music. (HEAR HEAR .. from a
Rafian :-) ]
Yesrafidas.
.ps. Looks to me ...we just signed a treaty :-)
Anand Tiwari
In article <4ufleh$c...@tribune.mayo.edu>, thakker....@mayo.edu says...
There are a few additions to Balukesh's post. The movie which
he is referring to is "LOOKO CHURI" (hide and seek). It was produced
by KK himself. It starred KK in a double role along with Mala Sinha
and Ameeta Guha (remember SAMPURNA RAMAYANA or JAI SANTOSHI MAA).
There is a very funny story behind the making of this film . KK
at that point was in deep trouble with the income tax department.
He owed them a large sum of money and they had factual evidence
of his assets. So KK decided to make a film in Bengali which he
thought would be a resounding flop and so he would be able to show
quite a big loss there and escape the hefty payment to the IT deptt.
However however hard he tried "LOOKO CHURI" was a smashing hit
and KK was left with more money than before and more income tax
trouble!!
regards
Anand
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Anand Tiwari (an...@cegt201.bradley.edu) wrote:
: There are a few additions to Balukesh's post. The movie which
: he is referring to is "LOOKO CHURI" (hide and seek). It was produced
: by KK himself. It starred KK in a double role along with Mala Sinha
: and Ameeta Guha (remember SAMPURNA RAMAYANA or JAI SANTOSHI MAA).
Anita Guha??
Later,
Ikram.
: There is a very funny story behind the making of this film . KK
: at that point was in deep trouble with the income tax department.
: He owed them a large sum of money and they had factual evidence
: of his assets. So KK decided to make a film in Bengali which he
: thought would be a resounding flop and so he would be able to show
: quite a big loss there and escape the hefty payment to the IT deptt.
: However however hard he tried "LOOKO CHURI" was a smashing hit
: and KK was left with more money than before and more income tax
: trouble!!
: regards
: Anand
:
Ikram Ahmed Khan
Anand Tiwari (an...@cegt201.bradley.edu) wrote:
: In fact he chose a quite an uncommon name for himself too which is Sundar.
: Could anyone provide a clue as to why he did this ?
Sure. He was remarking on his own belief, that he was very good-looking.
:) :)
Later,
Ikram.
Rizwan M. Syed
iak...@volt.tamu.edu (Ikram Ahmed Khan) writes:
>: In fact he chose a quite an uncommon name for himself too which is Sundar.
>: Could anyone provide a clue as to why he did this ?
>Sure. He was remarking on his own belief, that he was very good-looking.
>Ikram.
Heh... did he ever get anyone to fall for that one?
:)
Rizwan
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <32094562...@raynet.com> Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
>Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
>I admit Rafi being one of the greatest singers to grace Indian movies.
>don't buy the argument that his voice was on the decline in 1970s.
>some of his movies, why did'nt Rafi or for that matter Mukesh, Manna
>Dey etc composed music for movies(My apologies if I am not aware of
>
I thought I heard that Mukesh DID give music to one film - can't
remember though. As for Manna and Rafi, I must ask - did KK give music
for any movies that he DIDN'T act in? If he did, then I would be even
more impressed with him as a Sangeet-kaar (I already respect him for
that).
I'm not sure why Manna Dey didn't compose, but I seriously doubt Rafi
had much TIME to compose for an entire film - he had a lot more singing
to do during the time KK was composing for films - during that time, I'm
pretty sure KK had a lot fewer sining assignments from others (for
whatever reason). I'm curious, did KK continue composing AFTER he became
a more prolific playbacker with the rise of Rajesh K. and Amitabh?
Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go calling Kishore
more musically LITERATE than Rafi...
Sanjeev
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Sanjeev Ramabhadran (sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu) wrote:
: In article <32094562...@raynet.com> Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
: >Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
: I thought I heard that Mukesh DID give music to one film - can't
: remember though.
One movie with MD Mukesh is Anuraag. It has the song
"koii dil me.n hai.n, aur koii hai nazar me.n"
(kise yaad rakhuu.N, kise bhuul jaauu.N)
: As for Manna and Rafi, I must ask - did KK give music
: for any movies that he DIDN'T act in? If he did, then I would be even
: more impressed with him as a Sangeet-kaar (I already respect him for
: that).
I do not have an answer for this. In his first venture as an MD "Jhumroo"
he has a good balance of good songs and ...
but I simply adore both "door gagan ki chhaaon me.n" and "door kaa raahii"
: Sanjeev
--
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Department of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham, NC 27708-0129
Internet: p...@cs.duke.edu
HTTP : http://www.cs.duke.edu/~pkd
Arun Verma
In article <4upumt$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
Sanjeev Ramabhadran <sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu> wrote:
>In article <32094562...@raynet.com> Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
>>Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
>>It was a herculean task to upstage him at any stage of his career. I
>>don't buy the argument that his voice was on the decline in 1970s.
>>He delivered really good songs in 1970s too. Kishore gave music to
>>some of his movies, why did'nt Rafi or for that matter Mukesh, Manna
>>Dey etc composed music for movies(My apologies if I am not aware of
>>any movies here).
>>
>
>for any movies that he DIDN'T act in? If he did, then I would be even
>more impressed with him as a Sangeet-kaar (I already respect him for
>that).
Yes, for Sunil Dutt starrer ZAMEEN AASMAN.
>
>I'm not sure why Manna Dey didn't compose, but I seriously doubt Rafi
>had much TIME to compose for an entire film - he had a lot more singing
>to do during the time KK was composing for films - during that time, I'm
>pretty sure KK had a lot fewer sining assignments from others (for
>whatever reason). I'm curious, did KK continue composing AFTER he became
>a more prolific playbacker with the rise of Rajesh K. and Amitabh?
Yes, Shabaash Daddy, badhti ka naam daadi among a handful of others.
Arun
Pradeep Dubey
In article <4upumt$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
|> In article <32094562...@raynet.com> Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
|> >Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
|> >I admit Rafi being one of the greatest singers to grace Indian movies.
|> >It was a herculean task to upstage him at any stage of his career. I
|> >don't buy the argument that his voice was on the decline in 1970s.
|> >He delivered really good songs in 1970s too. Kishore gave music to
|> >some of his movies, why did'nt Rafi or for that matter Mukesh, Manna
|> >Dey etc composed music for movies(My apologies if I am not aware of
|> >any movies here).
|> >
|>
|> I thought I heard that Mukesh DID give music to one film - can't
|> remember though. As for Manna and Rafi, I must ask - did KK give music
|> for any movies that he DIDN'T act in? If he did, then I would be even
|> more impressed with him as a Sangeet-kaar (I already respect him for
|> that).
|>
|> had much TIME to compose for an entire film - he had a lot more singing
But then came the time, when Rafi had no more singing to do :-) for many many
years, when KK had a lot of singing to do ... and did Rafi still compose?
|> to do during the time KK was composing for films - during that time, I'm
|> pretty sure KK had a lot fewer sining assignments from others (for
|> whatever reason). I'm curious, did KK continue composing AFTER he became
|> a more prolific playbacker with the rise of Rajesh K. and Amitabh?
|>
|> Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go calling Kishore
|> more musically LITERATE than Rafi...
Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go questioning Kishore
more musically LITERATE than Rafi... :-)
Pradeep
|>
|>
|> Sanjeev
|>
|>
Anup
Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
>
>
> The word literate always refers to someone who has had _FORMAL_
> traning. It's by this definition, that I am opposed to calling KK literate..
>
> It is true that you would rather have someone who is good than someone
> who is literate but bad .. Consider that a farmer who has tremendous
> native intelligence but has never entered a classroom is called illiterate,
> while even a dumb guy who clears 10th class by 37% is called literate. :-)
>
> Although the example above sounds ridiculous, consider that some of the
> conventional exercises in classical music such as "taans" and "aalap" were
> by and large beyond KK. You could argue that these deficiencies were not
> because he was incapable, but was just never exposed. But that still
> doesn't make him literate.
Well, I think music is different. How can you claim someone is
musically literate or not. You mean to say that KK had no idea about
"taans" and "aalap" and he composed the music for many movies without
it. Well its becoming too technical for musically illiterate like me.
:-), someone please care to explain.
As far as my 2 cents go we don't have any yardstick to claim that if
you know certain certain things you are musically literate. Its
different for conventional education though where you can define many
ways to separate the literate and illetrate one.
Someone pointed out that its unfair for me to say that why did'nt
other singers composed music for movies. Well you have a point. My
raising this issue was merely to point out that so called musically
illiterate person has composed music for so many movies while so called
literate people did'nt.
Incidentally I think with a good music director/tune and a nice song
about 3/4 of the work is done and singer if he/she can follow the MD can
reap the benefits. What I am trying to say is its music director and
lyrics writer whose creativity is involved more in the song. If the
singer has the talent she/he can deliver a good song after being given
a good lyrics and a good tune. There are ofcourse exceptions but
generally it looks like the case.
> Yesrafidas.
>
> .ps. Looks to me ...we just signed a treaty :-)
Yeah Ramesh and treaty will last till the next war :-)) whenever it
will be.
Cheers
Anup
P.S. Happy Independence Day everyone.
Shetty
In article <4uvf3e$n...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>, pra...@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) writes:
> In article <4upumt$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu (Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
> |> In article <32094562...@raynet.com> Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
> |> >Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
> |> >I admit Rafi being one of the greatest singers to grace Indian movies.
> |> >It was a herculean task to upstage him at any stage of his career. I
> |> >don't buy the argument that his voice was on the decline in 1970s.
> |> >He delivered really good songs in 1970s too. Kishore gave music to
> |> >some of his movies, why did'nt Rafi or for that matter Mukesh, Manna
> |> >Dey etc composed music for movies(My apologies if I am not aware of
> |> >any movies here).
> |> >
> |>
> |> I thought I heard that Mukesh DID give music to one film - can't
> |> remember though. As for Manna and Rafi, I must ask - did KK give music
> |> for any movies that he DIDN'T act in? If he did, then I would be even
> |> more impressed with him as a Sangeet-kaar (I already respect him for
> |> that).
> |>
> |> I'm not sure why Manna Dey didn't compose, but I seriously doubt Rafi
> |> had much TIME to compose for an entire film - he had a lot more singing
>
> But then came the time, when Rafi had no more singing to do :-) for many many
> years, when KK had a lot of singing to do ... and did Rafi still compose?
>
++++ Kishore grabbed the maidaan when Rafi went to Hajj (read when Rafi had
turned his back and had his attention elsewhere) :-) I guess Rafi jsst wanted
to chill for a while. I don't think he got (accepted ? :-) ) even a few singing
assignments let alone composing any.
> |> to do during the time KK was composing for films - during that time, I'm
> |> pretty sure KK had a lot fewer sining assignments from others (for
> |> whatever reason). I'm curious, did KK continue composing AFTER he became
> |> a more prolific playbacker with the rise of Rajesh K. and Amitabh?
> |>
> |> Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go calling Kishore
> |> more musically LITERATE than Rafi...
>
> Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go questioning Kishore
> more musically LITERATE than Rafi... :-)
>
++++++ This one, we already have discussed :-) and I agree with your
arguments about KK's genius....but Pradeep I have my bais when it comes
to Rafi.....so I don't even want to go into it....lest I bring upon the
wrath of other KK-Klanners. :-).
-Naveen
PS: Pradeep, Thanx for the lyrics.
> Pradeep
>
> |>
> |>
> |> Sanjeev
> |>
> |>
Anup
Thanks Arun for the info.
Sanjeev! now Arun has given you every reason for you to join the
KKKlan :-)
Cheers
Anup
Arun Verma wrote:
>
> In article <4upumt$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
> Sanjeev Ramabhadran <sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu> wrote:
> >In article <32094562...@raynet.com> Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
> >>Ramesh`yesrafidas'Hariharan wrote:
> >>I admit Rafi being one of the greatest singers to grace Indian movies.
> >>It was a herculean task to upstage him at any stage of his career. I
> >>don't buy the argument that his voice was on the decline in 1970s.
> >>He delivered really good songs in 1970s too. Kishore gave music to
> >>some of his movies, why did'nt Rafi or for that matter Mukesh, Manna
> >>Dey etc composed music for movies(My apologies if I am not aware of
> >>any movies here).
> >>
> >
> >I thought I heard that Mukesh DID give music to one film - can't
> >remember though. As for Manna and Rafi, I must ask - did KK give music
> >for any movies that he DIDN'T act in? If he did, then I would be even
> >more impressed with him as a Sangeet-kaar (I already respect him for
> >that).
>
> Yes, for Sunil Dutt starrer ZAMEEN AASMAN.
>
> >
> >I'm not sure why Manna Dey didn't compose, but I seriously doubt Rafi
> >had much TIME to compose for an entire film - he had a lot more singing
> >to do during the time KK was composing for films - during that time, I'm
> >pretty sure KK had a lot fewer sining assignments from others (for
> >whatever reason). I'm curious, did KK continue composing AFTER he became
> >a more prolific playbacker with the rise of Rajesh K. and Amitabh?
>
> Yes, Shabaash Daddy, badhti ka naam daadi among a handful of others.
>
> Arun
> >
> >Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go calling Kishore
> >more musically LITERATE than Rafi...
> >
> >
> >Sanjeev
Anup
Thanks Arun for the info.
Sanjeev! now Arun has given you every reason to join the
Anand Kuppuswamy
Hi,
In article <4uvf3e$n...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com>, pra...@watson.ibm.com
says...
>
>In article <4upumt$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, sanj...@phoenix.princeton.edu
(Sanjeev Ramabhadran) writes:
>|>
>|> I'm not sure why Manna Dey didn't compose, but I seriously doubt Rafi
>|> had much TIME to compose for an entire film - he had a lot more
singing
>
>But then came the time, when Rafi had no more singing to do :-) for many
many
>years, when KK had a lot of singing to do ... and did Rafi still compose?
Nice one Pradeep! :-) I agree that Kishore dominated the scene almost
entirely at one stage! But ...Rafi was not a composer to, begin with!
Music composition requires a different type of musical outlook as compared
to the one of, say, a classically-trained(good) singer, i.e., one need not
be trained to compose music .... (though I wish the MDs of the modern
times were put thro' a rigorous-classical-grind!).
>|> to do during the time KK was composing for films - during that time,
I'm
>|> pretty sure KK had a lot fewer sining assignments from others (for
>|> whatever reason). I'm curious, did KK continue composing AFTER he
became
>|> a more prolific playbacker with the rise of Rajesh K. and Amitabh?
>|>
>|> Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go calling
Kishore
>|> more musically LITERATE than Rafi...
>
>Don't want to start another war - but don't you dare go questioning
Kishore
>more musically LITERATE than Rafi... :-)
Rafi's vocal chords were capable of far more intricate stuff than
Kishore's ... and yes ... Rafi was educated and more learned about music
... though the great Kishore may have had as good
'a-natural-feel-for-music' (if not better) as Rafi.
But there is one thing that needs to be added ... training ones vocal
chords to produce sangeet (be it shastriya/up-shastriya/sugam/ghazal)
effectively needs dedication. I have had vocal training in both Hindustani
& Carnatic and have had the opportunity to perform both the filmi-songs
and classical cheezs/ songs in programs. The tayyari and the riyaz, I
feel, are an art in themselves as they help the singer improvise, stay
'in-sur' more often and make the delta as small as possible in the
'epsilon-delta' musical-relationship that Sanjeev was talking about some
time back. That 'tayyari' was one of the reasons why Rafi could sing
Madhuban me Radhika or Kuhu Kuhu as easily as he could Chahe koi mujhe
junglee kahe. Same could be said of Manna Dey too though he was quite
unlucky, IMO.
Great MDs like Naushad, Roshan, Shankar-Jaikishan etc. surely have/had a
lot of music-literacy but I doubt it if any of them would have been able
to render a thillana or a tarana or a cheez in a movie!
We have to be clear about what we mean by musical literacy ... is it ...
a. natural feel for music
b. classical background/ tayyari
c. ability to compose music
d. ability of the vocal chords to produce any kind of music with equal
degree of comfort
e. manodharm
Anand Kuppuswamy
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>KKKlan :-)
Yes, but only if you make a new category for me called quasi-member or
something - I could never be a full member of an organization that
promotes "Kukru KuKu" :-) :-)
Sanjeev
Anup
Like it or not Sanjeev you are a member of a club that promotes
"SuKKu SuKKu" :-). Now anyone can tell you its better to have fun
with "Kukru KuKu" compared to "SuKKu SuKKu" :-)
Anyway you look it, Kishore Kumar is #1.
Pradeep Dubey
In article <32223B3A...@raynet.com>, Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
|> Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
|> >
|> > In article <321399EC...@raynet.com> Anup <apa...@raynet.com> writes:
|> > >Thanks Arun for the info.
|> > >
|> > >Sanjeev! now Arun has given you every reason for you to join the
|> > >KKKlan :-)
|> >
|> > Yes, but only if you make a new category for me called quasi-member or
|> > something - I could never be a full member of an organization that
|> > promotes "Kukru KuKu" :-) :-)
|> >
|>
|> Like it or not Sanjeev you are a member of a club that promotes
|> "SuKKu SuKKu" :-). Now anyone can tell you its better to have fun
|> with "Kukru KuKu" compared to "SuKKu SuKKu" :-)
One should not forget the song that was banned at the claim of health
professionals that it could damage ear drums.
Remember that annoying scream: kukcoooooooooooooooo in 'farz' :-)
Pradeep
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <4vv0kg$v...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com writes:
>One should not forget the song that was banned at the claim of health
>professionals that it could damage ear drums.
>
>Remember that annoying scream: kukcoooooooooooooooo in 'farz' :-)
Yeah - that scream IS pretty annoying...but that aint the man Rafi's
fault...that was LP's GENIUS idea :-) :-) :-)
Rafi surely didn't do that one - did health pros REALLY say that? I
don't know about eardrums, but I'm sure DOING the scream too many times
would WRECK your vocal chords...much worse than YAAAAAAAHOOOO...
So anyway, what does all this prove? That Kishore Kumar could imitate a
rooster and Rafi couldn't? BIG DEAL. :-) :-)
Sanjeev
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Sanjay Joshi (jo...@ee.tamu.edu) wrote:
: >
: >Rafi surely didn't do that one - did health pros REALLY say that? I
: >don't know about eardrums, but I'm sure DOING the scream too many times
: >would WRECK your vocal chords...much worse than YAAAAAAAHOOOO...
Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song. He did sing the song(no
doubts regarding that!) but the words "yahoo, yahoo" were sung(not really)
by some other guy whose name I am not able to recollect right now. He was
in one of the TV shows on DD about 6 years ago
: >
: >
: >Sanjeev
: >
: >
: >
: >
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: Sanjay S.Joshi 401, Stasney Street, 510
: Graduate Student College Station
: Dept. of Electrical Engineering TX 77840
: Texas A&M University Tel: (409)-846-8671
: College Station email: jo...@eesun1.tamu.edu
: TX 77840 http://ee.tamu.edu/~joshi/
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
Vinay Ghildyal
Pavan Kumar Desikan wrote:
> Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song. He did sing the song(no
> doubts regarding that!) but the words "yahoo, yahoo" were sung(not really)
> by some other guy whose name I am not able to recollect right now. He was
> in one of the TV shows on DD about 6 years ago
>
Was it Prayaag Raaj, the story writer?
--
Vinay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vinay Ghildyal
Operations Research Lab.,
Dept of Mechanical & Industrial Engr.,
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign,
Urbana IL 61801
Phone:
Res: (217) 337-5933
Off: (217) 333-5995
Lab: (217) 333-5290
E_mail : ghil...@archimedes.me.uiuc.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjay Joshi
Now why are we fighting Rafi-KK wars??? Why dont we agree that both were
great immortals?
Sanjay
On 27 Aug 1996, Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
>In article <4vv0kg$v...@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> pra...@watson.ibm.com writes:
>>One should not forget the song that was banned at the claim of health
>>professionals that it could damage ear drums.
>>
>>Remember that annoying scream: kukcoooooooooooooooo in 'farz' :-)
>
>Yeah - that scream IS pretty annoying...but that aint the man Rafi's
>fault...that was LP's GENIUS idea :-) :-) :-)
>
>Rafi surely didn't do that one - did health pros REALLY say that? I
>don't know about eardrums, but I'm sure DOING the scream too many times
>would WRECK your vocal chords...much worse than YAAAAAAAHOOOO...
>
>So anyway, what does all this prove? That Kishore Kumar could imitate a
>rooster and Rafi couldn't? BIG DEAL. :-) :-)
>
>
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Vinay Ghildyal (ghil...@archimedes.me.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Pavan Kumar Desikan wrote:
: > Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song. He did sing the song(no
: > doubts regarding that!) but the words "yahoo, yahoo" were sung(not really)
: > by some other guy whose name I am not able to recollect right now. He was
: > in one of the TV shows on DD about 6 years ago
: >
: Was it Prayaag Raaj, the story writer?
Yes, that's the guy.
Pavan Kumar Desikan
Sanjay Joshi
Yes , it was Prayag Raj.
On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Vinay Ghildyal wrote:
>Pavan Kumar Desikan wrote:
>
>> Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song. He did sing the song(no
>> doubts regarding that!) but the words "yahoo, yahoo" were sung(not really)
>> by some other guy whose name I am not able to recollect right now. He was
>> in one of the TV shows on DD about 6 years ago
>>
>
>Was it Prayaag Raaj, the story writer?
>--
> Vinay.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Vinay Ghildyal
>Operations Research Lab.,
>Dept of Mechanical & Industrial Engr.,
>University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign,
>Urbana IL 61801
>Phone:
> Res: (217) 337-5933
> Off: (217) 333-5995
> Lab: (217) 333-5290
>E_mail : ghil...@archimedes.me.uiuc.edu
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Sanjay Joshi
Hey! I didnt say the thing below! You have edited the wrong part. Please
look carefully. I just said that both Rafi and KK were GREAT and and we
should not put any of these down.
I am a Klanner but I have a deep respect for Rafi too. You just cant beat
these guys.
-Sanjay
PS : The only dude I dont like too much is Kumar Sanu :-)
On 29 Aug 1996, Pavan Kumar Desikan wrote:
>Sanjay Joshi (jo...@ee.tamu.edu) wrote:
>: >
>: >Rafi surely didn't do that one - did health pros REALLY say that? I
>: >don't know about eardrums, but I'm sure DOING the scream too many times
>: >would WRECK your vocal chords...much worse than YAAAAAAAHOOOO...
>: >
>
>Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song. He did sing the song(no
>doubts regarding that!) but the words "yahoo, yahoo" were sung(not really)
>by some other guy whose name I am not able to recollect right now. He was
>in one of the TV shows on DD about 6 years ago
>
>: >
>: >
>: >Sanjeev
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
In article <5047un$c...@newsgate.duke.edu> p...@cs.duke.edu (Pavan Kumar Desikan) writes:
>: >
>: >Rafi surely didn't do that one - did health pros REALLY say that? I
>: >don't know about eardrums, but I'm sure DOING the scream too many times
>: >would WRECK your vocal chords...much worse than YAAAAAAAHOOOO...
>: >
>
>Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song. He did sing the song(no
>doubts regarding that!) but the words "yahoo, yahoo" were sung(not really)
>by some other guy whose name I am not able to recollect right now. He was
>in one of the TV shows on DD about 6 years ago
>
Yeah, I figured as much...but what I mean is if anyone were to sing both
songs WITH the sound effects...the scream in Mast Bahaaron Ka I think
would be more damaging over time, as the Yaaahoooo sounds like a
well-supported yell.
BTW, check out Rafi in concert doing the "Yaaahoooo" - at best, it's
hilarious, at worst it's pathetic.
Sanjeev
>HTTP : http://www.cs.duke.edu/~pkd
Balaji A.S. Murthy
Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
> In article <5047un$c...@newsgate.duke.edu> p...@cs.duke.edu (Pavan Kumar Desikan) writes:
> >
> >Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song.
>
> songs WITH the sound effects...the scream in Mast Bahaaron Ka I think
> would be more damaging over time, as the Yaaahoooo sounds like a
> well-supported yell.
On a related note, I wonder who took those taans in "madhuban meiN
raadhika" (Kohinoor). Surely, Rafi didn't.
- Balaji
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Balaji A.S. Murthy | Email: fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu
3039, NW Overlook Dr, #1123 |
Hillsboro, OR 97124 | Ph: 503-617-1695(h)
Ajay P Nerurkar
Balaji A.S. Murthy (fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu) wrote:
: On a related note, I wonder who took those taans in "madhuban meiN
: raadhika" (Kohinoor). Surely, Rafi didn't.
Yes, Rafi is out of the question. I have it from inside sources that
it was Niyaaz Ahmed Khan of the Kirana gharana. Rajan P. got this nugget
of info. from Asha during an impromptu interview he did with her at the
recording of the Ali Akbar - Asha CD.
Ajay
Snehal B. Oza
I don't know if this is inside info.; but yesterday on TVS Sa Re Ga Ma (by Sonu
Nigam), the judge was none other but the this great living legend Naushad Ali,
himself. One participant (BTW, it was Final), said he was going to sing this
Kohinoor song. On this Naushad-saab told the 'janta' that the taans were by
Niyaaz Ahmed Khan saheeb (who is alive), and sitar was played by Halim Jafer
Khan saaheb. It was really a charged atmosphere; he made it so lively. He also
nerrated the incident of Mughal-E-Azam song by other great Bade Ghulaam Ali
Khan saheb. Asif told him (Naushad), that he wanted Khansaheb to sing for his
film. Naushad replied 'he dooes not sing for films'. On that Asif insisted to
visit him. On meeting Khansaheb, Naushad requested Khansaheb to sing for this
film, where he was composing music. Khansaheb refused. Then K. Asif, immediately
told Khansaheb whith his normal gesture, while smaking pipe(?), 'Nahi, Khansaab
gaana to aap hi gayenge! Kimat aapki, aap ki jo sharten hon we saari hame manzur
hain, par gaana to aap hi gaayenge.'. Khansaheb was amused. He told Naushad
'Are!, Main na kiye jaa rahun hun, aur yeh hain ki kahe jaa rahe hain ki gaana
to aap hi gayenge :)'. He asked Naushad to go out of that hall for a while.
Khan saheb told Naushad, 'Are isko yahan se bhaga do!'. Naushad politely replied
'Are, saab, yehi to hain film ke producer-director main inhe bhalaa kaise bhaga
sakata hun ?!'. Khansaab thought for few moments and told Naushad 'Achchha, main
kimat itani mangataa hun, ye sun kar hi chalaa jayega!' Alas! He didn't know
Asif. He asked 25000 Rupees. (This was in 1959-60). Singers like Lata/Rafi used
to get 400 or at the max. 500 bucks! Asif, without any shock, took out 10000
in cash telling 'Khaan Saheb ye hamaari taraf se advance!'. He sung then that
famous thumari in raag Sohani.
Towards the end Naushad said this for his untiring efforts to serve a quality
music:
Pyaas Meri Gar Buz Gai Hoti
Zindagi Fir Zindagi Na Hoti
Regards,
Snehal
PS: Those who are in India, the Part II of the final of 'Sa Re Ga Ma' will be
telcast on next Monday 2000 hours IST on ZEE channel. Yes, evergreen composer
Naushad will be there!
>Ajay
Anand Kuppuswamy
In article <322A3C...@cleveland.freenet.edu>, fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu says...
>
>Sanjeev Ramabhadran wrote:
>> In article <5047un$c...@newsgate.duke.edu> p...@cs.duke.edu (Pavan Kumar Desikan
>) writes:
>> >
>> >Rafi did not scream "yahoo.." in the junglee song.
>>
>> Yeah, I figured as much...but what I mean is if anyone were to sing both
>> songs WITH the sound effects...the scream in Mast Bahaaron Ka I think
>> would be more damaging over time, as the Yaaahoooo sounds like a
>> well-supported yell.
>
>raadhika" (Kohinoor). Surely, Rafi didn't.
>
>
The taan in madhuban me radhika (aa~~a~~a aa~~~aa aa~~ aa~~~a~a) is a complicated one
and it would take some bit of mastery over raag Hameer (S R S G m D N D S',
S' N D P G m D M P G G m R S) to pull that one off ... the person rendering it may
have been an ustad/ pandit (and definitely not Rafi) ... he did a great job ...
Anand