Shankar Jaikishan songs in Bhairavi ...
shahrukh
I am trying to make a list of ALL Shankar Jaikishan songs in Bhairavi.
Could you help by adding the titles in this thread.
I am told
Jaanewale zara hoshiyaar from Rajkumar
Juhi ki kali meri laadli from Dil Ek Mandir
are in Bhairavi.
There are probably hindreds more ...
Please add ...
Thanks
SK
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> Hi !
>
> I am trying to make a list of ALL Shankar Jaikishan songs in Bhairavi.
> Could you help by adding the titles in this thread.
>
> I am told
>
> Jaanewale zara hoshiyaar from Rajkumar
Yep - funny enough...
Also (some with more Bhairavi than others):
Tumhen Aur Kya Doon (Lata, Aayi Milan Ki Bela)
Kaise Samjhaaoon (Rafi-Asha, Suraj)
Kabhi To Aa (Lata, Patrani)
Suno Chhoti Si Gudiya Ki (Lata, Seema)
Barsaat Men (Lata, chorus Barsaat)
Main Zindagi Men Hardam (Rafi, Barsaat)
Raja Ki Aayegi Baaraat (Lata, Aah)
Saawan Ban Gaye Nain (Asha, Karodpati)
Ajhuna Aaye Baalma (Rafi-Suman, Saanjh Aur Savera - actually Sindh Bhairavi)
Yehi Hai Woh (Rafi-Asha, Saanjh Aur Savera)
Kisi Ne Apna Banake Mujhko (Lata, Patita)
Meri Mohabbat Paak Mohabbat (Rafi, April Fool)
Naach Re Man (Lata-Asha, Raaj Kumar)
Awaara Hoon (Mukesh, Awaara)
Main Piya Teri (Lata, Basant Bahaar)
Do Din Ke Liye Mehmaan (Lata, Baadal)
Ae Mere Dil Kahin Aur Chal (Lata/Talat, Daag
Sanjeev
Afzal A. Khan
Experts in classical music sould no doubt give you a
very comprehensive list. Off-hand, I think the
following songs by S-J are based on Bhairavi :
"Kaise samjhaaooN, baRe na-samajh ho" (Suraj)
"Ja ja ja re, ja re~~ja~~~" (Naya Ghar)
"Laga kar dil pareshaaN haiN, mohabbat..." (Naya Ghar)
"Are koi jaao ke piya ko bulaao ke gori.." (Patrani)
"Kabhi to aa, o sapnoN men..." (Patrani)
"Barsaat men hum se mile tum sajan" (Barsaat)
"Ulfat ka saaz chheRo, samaaN suhana hai" (Aurat)
"Suno chhoTi si guRiya ki lambi kahaani" (Seema)
"Kisi ne apna bana ke mujhko muskuraana..." (Patita)
"Duniya bananewale, kya tere dil men..." (Teesri Kasam)
"Haaye GHazab kahiN taara TooTa" (Teesri Kasam)
"Yeh mohabbat ki daastaaN suno" (Mayurpankh)
"Naache ang ang ang tere aage, baaje re.." (Raj HaTh)
Two or three songs in "Sanyasi" were I think based on
Bhairavi.
Corrections in the above list would be most welcome.
When you have completed the task, I am sure you would
post the list to our NG.
In due course, if you decide to make a similar list of
Bhairavi songs by Naushad, I think you may come up
with a bigger compilation. I think Naushad and SJ have
the largest number of compositions in this sweet raag.
Afzal
Pradeep
Can someone tell me which Raag is "So Ja Re So Ja Mere Raaj Dulare So
Ja" (Kathputli) from?
...Pradeep
Roop Singh Chandel (Assoc Prof)
obsessed with bhaivi that Jaikishen even named his daughter as Bharvi.
Before S-J it was Naushad who used to use Bhairvi very often.
*******************
shahrukh
ALL the songs os Sanyasi were Bhairavi based Afzalbhai, apparently
Shankar chose to do that with a gusto in memory of his late partner !
I did not include that in my post because I am mainly looking for the
Golden era Bhairavi based compositions ...
But thanks for your addition ...
Looking for more ... too
Prakash Pradhan
> > shahrukh wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi !
> > >
> > > I am trying to make a list of ALL Shankar Jaikishan songs in Bhairavi.
> > > Could you help by adding the titles in this thread.
> > >
> > > Please add ...
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > SK
>
> Looking for more ... too
Hi,
Sorry to cut the above paras, Following songs are from the (1950's?)
film Mayurpankh
Mai to chali paschim purab chali Duniya; meri kismat pe badi jale
duniya;
Mohobbat ki dasta aaj suno, ye mohobbatki dasta suno 'and'
Khushiyoke chand muskuraye re, Dekho mast zamane aaye re haye re all
sound Bhairavi.
Could they be SJ's creation:
Tere beena aag ye chandani tu aaaaaaa jaa from Aawara.
regards,
Prakash Pradhan
Afzal A. Khan
In many of their early films, SJ did make good
use of this sweet melody, but one cannot look for
a recognisably regular rendition of the raag in
all such cases; mostly the songs sort of remind
you of the raag --- they carry a whiff of the
melody. Even
when they were past their prime (in the RMIM sense !,
though they did remain very popular amongst the masses
till the late sixties), many of their compositions
carried the Bhairavi "rang". In this later period,
the effect was somewhat marred by the use of
western instruments e.g. electric guitar and certain
percussion "embellishments".
I offer a few additions to the list. As already
stated, corrections would be most welcome :
"Hum se no poochho koi pyaar kya hai, pyaar kya hai"
(Kali Ghata)
"Kaahe ko der lagaai re" (Daag)
"Un se pyaar ho gaya, dil mera kho gaya" (Badal)
"Aayi aayi raat suhaani, sun le KHushi ki kahaani"
(Poonam)
"Dil ka na karna aitibaar koi" (Halaku)
"Tera jaana, dil ke armaanoN ka.." (Anari)
"Aa~ja sanam, madhur chaaNni men hum" (Chori Chori)
"Yeh to kaho kaun ho tum, kaun ho tum" (Aashiq)
"Bol Radha bol sangam hoga ke nahiN" (Sangam)
"TumheN aur kya dooN main dil ke sivaaye"
(Aayi Milan ki Bela)
"Mil gayi, mil gayi, mil gayi re..." (Pyar Mohabbat)
Interestingly, this last song seems to have been
deleted from the movie later on. It was very much
there when I saw the film in Bombay's Maratha
Mandir in January 1967.
Afzal
shahrukh
Now here is the list so far :
Jaanewale zara hoshiyaar from Rajkumar
Juhi ki kali meri laadli from Dil Ek Mandir
Tumhen Aur Kya Doon (Lata, Aayi Milan Ki Bela)
Kaise Samjhaaoon (Rafi-Asha, Suraj)
Kabhi To Aa (Lata, Patrani)
Suno Chhoti Si Gudiya Ki (Lata, Seema)
Barsaat Men (Lata, chorus Barsaat)
Main Zindagi Men Hardam (Rafi, Barsaat)
Raja Ki Aayegi Baaraat (Lata, Aah)
Saawan Ban Gaye Nain (Asha, Karodpati)
Ajhuna Aaye Baalma (Rafi-Suman, Saanjh Aur Savera - actually Sindh
Bhairavi)
Yehi Hai Woh (Rafi-Asha, Saanjh Aur Savera)
Kisi Ne Apna Banake Mujhko (Lata, Patita)
Meri Mohabbat Paak Mohabbat (Rafi, April Fool)
Naach Re Man (Lata-Asha, Raaj Kumar)
Awaara Hoon (Mukesh, Awaara)
Main Piya Teri (Lata, Basant Bahaar)
Do Din Ke Liye Mehmaan (Lata, Baadal)
Ae Mere Dil Kahin Aur Chal (Lata/Talat, Daag
"Kaise samjhaaooN, baRe na-samajh ho" (Suraj)
"Ja ja ja re, ja re~~ja~~~" (Naya Ghar)
"Laga kar dil pareshaaN haiN, mohabbat..." (Naya Ghar)
"Are koi jaao ke piya ko bulaao ke gori.." (Patrani)
"Kabhi to aa, o sapnoN men..." (Patrani)
"Barsaat men hum se mile tum sajan" (Barsaat)
"Ulfat ka saaz chheRo, samaaN suhana hai" (Aurat)
"Suno chhoTi si guRiya ki lambi kahaani" (Seema)
"Kisi ne apna bana ke mujhko muskuraana..." (Patita)
"Duniya bananewale, kya tere dil men..." (Teesri Kasam)
"Haaye GHazab kahiN taara TooTa" (Teesri Kasam)
"Yeh mohabbat ki daastaaN suno" (Mayurpankh)
"Naache ang ang ang tere aage, baaje re.." (Raj HaTh)
New addition >>> Bol ri Kathputli dori ...(Kathputli)
Of course this list is being posted here Afzalbhai ... as it happens
and after it is complete too ...
I am sorry I am not so much into Naushad so someone else will have to
initiate that kind of thread ...
If you want to add to this list suggest you add at the bottom and also
say NEW with it !
Can someone help me on how to transliterate the Hindi words (bol)
accurately?
Cheers
SK
Narendra Joshi
Looks like SJ had a thing for Bhairavi.
How about following songs:
"Zoomata mousam mast mahina" - Ujala
"Raam kare kahin naina na ulaze" - Gunahonka dewata
"sapanonka saudagar aaya" - sapanonka saudagar
"Zoome zoome dil mera, chandaki chandanime" - ???
"Dil apana aur preet parayi" - DAPP
"Parademe rahane do parada na uthao" - Shikar
"Man bhavan ke ghar jaaye gori" - Chori chori
- Narendra
shahrukh...@indiainfo.com (shahrukh) wrote in message news:<42119b10.01120...@posting.google.com>...
Afzal A. Khan
Well, here are a few additional songs which sort of
remind me of Bhairavi :
"BichhRe huwe pardesi" (Barsat)
"Kaisi KHushi ki hai raat" (Nagina, stg. Nutan, Nasir Khan)
"Raaz-e-ulfat chhupaauN kahaaN" (Aurat)
"Dard-e-jigar Thehr zara" (Aurat)
"KHushiyoN ke chaaNd muskuraaye re" (Mayurpankh)
"BaaGHoN men, bahaaroN men iThlaata gaata" (Chhoti Bahen)
"BaakaR bam bam bam bam baaje damaroo" (KaThputli)
"Haaye tu hi gaya mohe bhool re" (KaThputli)
"Yeh hariyali aur yeh raasta" (Hariyali Aur Rasta)
"ChaaNd aaheN bharega" (Apne Huwe Paraye ?)
"Unki pehli nazar kya asar kar gayi" (April Fool)
Afzal
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
>
> initiate that kind of thread ...
Okay...here's a start.
Sanjeev
Naushad/Bhairavi:
Lata Mangeshkar
---------------
Teer Khaate Jaayenge (Deewana)
Haal-e-Dil Main Kya (Udan Khatola)
Tumhaare Sang Main Bhi (Sohni Mahiwaal)
Kya Rang-e-Mehfil Hai (Dil Diya Dard Liya)
Allah Bachaaen Naujawaanon Se (Mere Mehboob)
Ae Dil Tujhe Qasam Hai (Dulaari)
Do Hanson Ka Joda (Ganga Jamuna)
Mohammed Rafi
---------------
Insaaf Ka Mandir (Amar)
Na Toofaan Se Khelo (Udan Khatola)
Yeh Zindagi Ke Mele (Mela)
Tu Ganga Ki Mauj (Baiju Bawra)
Huye Ham Jinke Liye Barbaad (Deedaar)
Dekh Liya Main Ne (Deedaar, w/ Lata)
Aanewale Ko Aana Hoga (Sohni Mahiwaal, w/ Lata)
Asha Bhosle
---------------
Jadoogar Qaatil (Kohinoor)
Mahendra Kapoor
---------------
Chaand Chhupa Aur Taare Doobe (Sohni Mahiwaal)
S.P. Balasubramaniam
---------------
Baat Sabse Karo Pyaar Hamse Karo (Teri Paayal Mere Geet)
K.L. Saigal
---------------
Jab Dil Hi Toot Gayaa (Shah Jahaan)
SKalra902
>Hi.
>Looks like SJ had a thing for Bhairavi.
>How about following songs:
>"Zoomata mousam mast mahina" - Ujala
That is hilarious. "zoom" karataa huaa mousam; "zoom zoom" karta huaa
dil........:)
All kidding aside, I still can't understand why some of us use the "z"
consonant, which has the sound of 'zoo' ( or as in 'Zee' TV), for the sound
"jhh"?
>"Zoome zoome dil mera, chandaki chandanime" - ???
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
Surajit A. Bose
skal...@aol.com (SKalra902) wrote:
> Narendra Joshi wrote:
>
> >Hi.
> >Looks like SJ had a thing for Bhairavi.
> >How about following songs:
> >"Zoomata mousam mast mahina" - Ujala
>
> That is hilarious. "zoom" karataa huaa mousam; "zoom zoom" karta huaa
> dil........:)
>
> All kidding aside, I still can't understand why some of us use the "z"
> consonant, which has the sound of 'zoo' ( or as in 'Zee' TV), for the sound
> "jhh"?
I remember being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about the
song "kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii". 8-) But I actually thought about
it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW:
This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,
but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the "z" and
"jh" sounds. They pronounce both as "zh". There was (and perhaps still
is) a movie theater in Dadar called "Plaza". The Devnagari
transliteration of the name was supplied as "plaajhaa". Maharashtrians
would pronounce the name as "plaazhaa".
Sometimes they also mix up "z" and "j". I remember asking one very
Konkanastha Brahmin girl where she studied and she said "V-zay-T-I" for
VJTI.
Oddly enough this applies only to words from other languages. In Marathi
itself the distinctions between "z", "j", and "zh" are clearly marked.
For example (trying desperately to make this musically relevant here!)
the Bhairavi naaTyapad "saravaatmakaa, saraveshwaraa" from Yayati
Devyani, wonderfully recorded by Jitendra Abhisheki, has the line
ze ze jagii zagate tayaa maazhe mhaNaa karuNaakaraa
--the words have to be pronounced as written above. It would be bad
Marathi pronunciation to say "je je zagii", for example, or "maajhe". In
fact the "jh" sound does not exist in Marathi.
(Note, I am not iTransing. in iTrans the line would be:
je je jagii jagate tayaa maajhe mhaNaa karuNaakaraa
--iTrans reproduces script, not pronunciation. There is no distinction
between "z" and "j" in Marathi writing though it exists in
pronunciation--no nukta the way there is in Hindi. And in Marathi the
letter represented in iTrans as "jh" is pronounced "zh")
-s
Balaji Murthy
> Narendra Joshi wrote:
>
> >"Zoomata mousam mast mahina" - Ujala
>
> That is hilarious. "zoom" karataa huaa mousam; "zoom zoom" karta huaa
> dil........:)
>
> All kidding aside, I still can't understand why some of us use the "z"
> consonant, which has the sound of 'zoo' ( or as in 'Zee' TV), for the sound
> "jhh"?
>
>
>
This is the age old problem of transliteration. I have seen the use of 'z' for the
ITRANS consonent 'jh' mainly in Maharashtra, although Gujaratis also are
known to use (case in point Snehal Oza). A maharashtrian friend once told
me that the native sound is indeed closer to 'z' than 'jh', hence the usage.
One of the most prominent places in Bombay is the Zaveri Bazaar (or should it
be Jhaveri Bajhaar :)).
- Balaji
SKalra902
This may not be just people from a region - I know of a couple of Punjabi
friends of mine, who still give out the license tags of their cars as
"FJZ-1234" as Eff-Jay-Gee......, or pronouncing their name - spelt Vinod - as
Binod. It may probably have more to do with the sounds as imparted to them
while learning. It is like so many people not being able to distinguish
between the "sa" and the "sha" sounds, and actually reversing the sounds.
Another example of such language atrocity is seen while going thru the credits
of songs on the inlay cards of some cassettes/CDs, printed in Hindi - in
regards to the "chhote 'uu' kii maatraa" Vs. the "bade 'uu' kii maatraa",
transposing the two, and in the process making the titles really funny.
Thankfully, I have not yet seen any one writing "muuhabbat" instead of
"muhabbat". :-)
I wish something were being done to 'standardise' teaching all over the
country. But then, that is proabably the last thing on the minds of the people
who run the country.
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
Ashok
> skal...@aol.com (SKalra902) wrote:
>
>> All kidding aside, I still can't understand why some of us use the "z"
>> consonant, which has the sound of 'zoo' ( or as in 'Zee' TV), for the sound
>> "jhh"?
OK, Zatish:
What is this "jhh" sound? And which transliteration convention are you following?
>This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,
>but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the "z" and
>"jh" sounds. They pronounce both as "zh".
OK, Zurazit:
What is this "zh" sound? And which transliteration convention are you following?
>-s
Since "s" is quite often pronounced as "z" in English, let us make that
also into a z.
Ashok
SKalra902
This is even funnier. Replacing both the "S" and "J" sounds with "Z" sound.
Keep it up, Azhok. :-)
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
Sudhir
consonant for V, hence Vinod is spelled and pronounced as: >
Binod, which is O.K., if you are a Bengali.
The fun starts when you ask a Bengali to pronounce: V for Victory.
The sound which you will hear will be: BICTORY.
--- Great tip for Police Departments.
SUDHIR
-------------------------
skal...@aol.com (SKalra902)
Ramesh . S
> There is one exception. In Bengali language, it seems there is no
> consonant for V, hence Vinod is spelled and pronounced as: >
> Binod, which is O.K., if you are a Bengali.
>
>
>
> The fun starts when you ask a Bengali to pronounce: V for Victory.
> The sound which you will hear will be: BICTORY.
>
...and the fun continues when they have 'bedding's instead of 'wedding's. :-)
regards
ramesh
Neha
> being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about the
> song "kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii". 8-) But I actually thought about
> it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW:
>
> This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,
> but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the "z" and
> "jh" sounds. They pronounce both as "zh". There was (and perhaps still
In gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee. (I know even
hindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?).
There is 'j' as in jaa, jawaab and a 'jh' as in 'jhumar'(gujarati word
for tree is jhaaD). When writing 'zindagi' they write is as 'jindagi'.
So 'jh' is not a problem with gujaratis, the problem comes when writing
'z', it is almost always written as 'jh'. For eg. 'plaza' will be written
as 'plaajha', but ppl who know english will know how to pronounce it. Those
who dont, will even pronouce it as plaajhaa.
The marathis I know always say 'z' for 'jh' when saying tujhe and mujhe:).
but in when speaking marathi they say 'jh' and 'z' and 'j' all properly...
--
Neha
SKalra902
I disagree with the statement "....and the fun continues when they have
'bedding's instead of 'wedding's.
The fun actually begins WITH 'bedding's AFTER the 'wedding's. :-)
Happy listenings.
Satish Kalra
Afzal A. Khan
> Satish Kalra
Reminded me of an English poem I read about 50 years
back : Sally in the Alley (by Carey ?). After
describing his feelings for his sweetheart, the poet
ends the poem with these lines :
O then I'll marry Sally, ----
O then we'll wed, and then we'll bed,
But not in our alley !
In College, we had a Bengali professor of English,
Dr. Ghoshal. Fortunately, there was no occasion
for us to hear him read this poem.
Afzal
Surajit A. Bose
skal...@aol.com (SKalra902) wrote:
>
> The fun actually begins WITH 'bedding's AFTER the 'wedding's. :-)
>
In these enlightened times, surely the weddings aren't a necessary
prelude to the beddings?
-s
P Dasgupta
> > >news:<c2632c6.01120...@posting.google.com>...
> > >> There is one exception. In Bengali language, it seems there is no
> > >> consonant for V, hence Vinod is spelled and pronounced as: >
> > >> Binod, which is O.K., if you are a Bengali.
> > >>
> > >> The fun starts when you ask a Bengali to pronounce: V for Victory.
> > >> The sound which you will hear will be: BICTORY.
> > >>
Correction. In Bengali "victory" would sound "bhictory", (in
Hindi it would sound "wictory", no?) and "wed"="oyed". Thats
how the absence of one syllable is compensated in different
contexts. Sounds trifling odd, but then Bengalis speak
English much better than the English can speak Bengali;)
Given that Mr. Sudhir who had written the following
on another thread in RMIM: "Please don't post unrelated
messages. You should post message only if you have an
answer. If something is bothering you, or you want the world
to know about some irrelevent facts, you can start a new
thread." -
has written this post, it must be he finds a relation
between pronunciation of English words in Indian languages
and "Shankar-Jaikishen songs in Bhairavi". Would like
to know from him what that relation is. Or it might be the
case, (to quote him) "something is bothering" him or he
"wants the world to know some irrelevant facts"...in
which case I understand why he started this sub-thread.
-Prithviraj
UVR
>
> > being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about the
> > song "kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii". 8-) But I actually thought about
> > it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW:
> >
> > This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,
> > but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the "z" and
> > "jh" sounds. They pronounce both as "zh". There was (and perhaps still
>
> In gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee. (I know even
> hindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?).
How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian language
to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.
(Actually I don't know about *only*. Does Kannada have a similar native
sound? Ashok? Balaji?)
The Telugu word, 'zaabili', meaning moonlight, uses this sound.
The 'z' is pronounced EXACTLY like the one in "Mozart" (or "Mozzarella",
if the former isn't cheesy enough for you :)) "tzaabili", if you will.
In print, this letter looks like a 'ja' with a modifier placed ON TOP.
Originally, Telugu words borrowed from Farsi/Urdu (mainly used in legal
paperwork) were also transcribed using this letter. That included
'mEzu', 'taaveezu', 'dastaavEzu' (did I mention "legal paperwork?)." :)
An unfortunate fate similar to the Hindi 'za' has befallen the Telugu
'za', too. Moonlight is now 'jaabili', and those imported words are
mEju, taaveeju, dastaavEju. Fortunately, this affliction seems to
be restricted to the print media -- most people I know STILL say
'zaabili'.
BTW, there's a 's'-like counterpart to this Telugu 'z', too. It's
used in the Telugu word for cold/cool: "challa" is what it's written
as, nowadays, but the proper pronunciation remains "tsalla".
Go on, say it both ways. "challa", "tsalla". See? It even *sounds* cool :)
-UVR.
P.S.
> There is 'j' as in jaa, jawaab and a 'jh' as in 'jhumar'(gujarati word
> for tree is jhaaD).
Some dialectical Hindi-speakers (especially from [southern?] MP)
also use "jhaa.D" as a universal replacement for "pe.D"/"paudhaa".
For example: "dekho, dekho, chamelI kaa jhaa.D!". To my ears,
all the beauty and fragrance of "chamelii" has evaporated the moment
you call it a "jhaa.D".
shahrukh
"Zoomata mousam mast mahina" - Ujala
"Raam kare kahin naina na ulaze" - Gunahonka dewata
"sapanonka saudagar aaya" - sapanonka saudagar
"Zoome zoome dil mera, chandaki chandanime" - ???
"Dil apana aur preet parayi" - DAPP
"Parademe rahane do parada na uthao" - Shikar
"Man bhavan ke ghar jaaye gori" - Chori chori
Let us revert to the original intent of the thread please ...
SK
"Surajit A. Bose" <sb...@saintmarys.edu> wrote in message news:<sbose-E3DEEC....@news.fu-berlin.de>...
Srinivas Ganti
UVR wrote :
<snipped>
I thought that UVR stands for Urdu Vidwaan Ravindra and that u are an expert
in urdu only:) U seem to be an expert in Telugu also!
> An unfortunate fate similar to the Hindi 'za' has befallen the Telugu
> 'za', too. Moonlight is now 'jaabili', and those imported words are
> mEju, taaveeju, dastaavEju. Fortunately, this affliction seems to
> be restricted to the print media --
^^^^^
I guess this has spread to other media also. Note the usage in this eternal
lorii;
"chandamaama raave, jaabili raavee
kondekki raave, koTi puulu tevee"
Infact I have even noticed it being used as "jaabilli".
>most people I know STILL say
> 'zaabili'.
sg.
yeskay
>
> How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian language
> to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.
>
> (Actually I don't know about *only*. Does Kannada have a similar native
> sound? Ashok? Balaji?)
No, Kannada doesn't have that native sound. It's either 'ja' or 'jha'.
Ket...@att.net
says...
>How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian language
>to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.
A few years ago, I had asked on RMIM on whether Lata had mispronounced a word in
a particular Salil Bengali song. The song in question was :
"O tui nayan paakhi amar re". The Hindi version is in Pinjre ka Panchi. The
second line of this song goes :
"Bolo kothai jaabi re". Lata pronounces "jaabi" as "zaabi". I remember Gautam
and another reader(Sharmila Mukherjee perhaps), mentioning that infact Lata had
pronounced it exactly the way the word would be pronounced in East Bengal. So
atleast certain parts of the Bengali language seem to have the 'z' sound in it
too.
Ketan
Neha
> neha...@hotmail.com (Neha) wrote:
> >
> > > being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about the
> > > song "kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii". 8-) But I actually thought about
> > > it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW:
> > >
> > > This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,
> > > but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the "z" and
> > > "jh" sounds. They pronounce both as "zh". There was (and perhaps still
> >
> > In gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee. (I know even
> > hindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?).
>
> How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian language
> to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.
>
> (Actually I don't know about *only*. Does Kannada have a similar native
> sound? Ashok? Balaji?)
Marathi has the 'z' sound, as in maaza, zaala, zop etc etc... So Telugu
is _not_ the *only* language that has it.
--
Neha
Neha
> >
> > > being puzzled by this too. Somebody had once posted about the
> > > song "kahe zoom zoom raat ye suhaanii". 8-) But I actually thought about
> > > it and came up with an answer that may not be correct. FWIW:
> > >
> > > This happens because Marathi-speaking folks (and I believe Gujarati too,
> > > but I could be mistaken) don't distinguish very well between the "z" and
> > > "jh" sounds. They pronounce both as "zh". There was (and perhaps still
> >
> > In gujarati there is no 'z' as in zamana, zindagi or zee. (I know even
> > hindi doesnt have a 'z', it came only from urdu no?).
>
> How interesting! I guess this makes Telugu the only Indian language
> to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.
>
> (Actually I don't know about *only*. Does Kannada have a similar native
> sound? Ashok? Balaji?)
Marathi has the 'z' sound, as in maaza, zaala, zop etc etc... So Telugu
Balaji A.S. Murthy
>to possess a NATIVE 'z'-like sound.
>
>(Actually I don't know about *only*. Does Kannada have a similar native
>sound? Ashok? Balaji?)
Kannada doesn't really have a native 'z' sound. However, I have seen in print
a version of 'ja' with two dots underneath which would signify a 'z' sound. I
have similarly come across a similar case for 'ph' modified to get a 'f' sound.
- Balaji
P.S. I have seen Telugus mix up (rather interchange) the sounds of 'z' and 'ja'
sounds, e.g. a few of my aquaintances used to consistently say 'viziavaadaa'
and 'vijaag'.
anils
Are you SURE there's a "z" or "za" alphabet native to Telugu?
I lived 20 years in Hyderabad and can't recall hearing anyone say
"zabilli" and in script it is clearly "jaabilli". Is there a way to
write "za" in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none,
atleast in the telugu in use now. The only word I can recall with a
"za" sound is "mozu" (craving), but even that is written as "moju". I
can never understand why most telugu people, especially the ones who
study in telugu schools, get confused and actually interchange "za"
and "ja" sounds when it comes to non-telugu words. There are many
hilarious examples -- "zoology" is pronounced as "joolozy"; "zero" is
"jeero"; "zig-zag" is "jig-jag" and so on...
A couple of telugu speaking friends of mine from Hyderabad, despite
repeated corrections, continue to sing the "Chor Machaye Shor" song as
" Le zayenge, Le zayenge..." after reading the lyrics in English!
Please note : I am not trying to single out telugu speaking people.
Just want to say that they are as guilty as speakers of other Indian
languages when it comes to mangling "foreign" words.
Anil
yeskay
>
> Are you SURE there's a "z" or "za" alphabet native to Telugu?
> I lived 20 years in Hyderabad and can't recall hearing anyone say
> "zabilli" and in script it is clearly "jaabilli". Is there a way to
> write "za" in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none,
> atleast in the telugu in use now. The only word I can recall with a
> "za" sound is "mozu" (craving), but even that is written as "moju". I
> can never understand why most telugu people, especially the ones who
> study in telugu schools, get confused and actually interchange "za"
> and "ja" sounds when it comes to non-telugu words. There are many
> hilarious examples -- "zoology" is pronounced as "joolozy"; "zero" is
> "jeero"; "zig-zag" is "jig-jag" and so on...
> A couple of telugu speaking friends of mine from Hyderabad, despite
> repeated corrections, continue to sing the "Chor Machaye Shor" song as
> " Le zayenge, Le zayenge..." after reading the lyrics in English!
>
> Please note : I am not trying to single out telugu speaking people.
> Just want to say that they are as guilty as speakers of other Indian
Read that as "gulty" :)
I have also come across of a lot of ppl who interchange the
pronounciation of 'pa" and 'fa'. I had this Manager who always used to
ask for 'fefsi" and he used to begin a sentence like, "I pheel ....".
Arup Ray
> "Bolo kothai jaabi re". Lata pronounces "jaabi" as "zaabi". I remember Gautam
> and another reader(Sharmila Mukherjee perhaps), mentioning that infact Lata had
> pronounced it exactly the way the word would be pronounced in East Bengal. So
> atleast certain parts of the Bengali language seem to have the 'z' sound in it
> too.
You are absolutely right. The "ja" sound is often replaced with the
"za" sound in the dialect of East Bengal. Even though, in the written
language it is always the letter "ja" of the "cha" (as in chalk)
"varga" or the "ya" (which is also pronounced as "ja" in formal
Bengali). This actually makes the speakers of this dialog pronounce
foreign words (used in Bengali) like "Hazar" (Persian) correctly.
However, as you pointed out even Sanskrit derived words like "Jaoa"
(to go) end up being pronounced as "Zaoa." This "ze-ification" is
usually most frequently observed in the folk songs of East Bengal like
the Bhatiyalis. Often the word "majhi" gets pronounced as "mazi". So
not only is "ja" often pronounced differently - so is "jha". A
Hemanta Mukherjee song - De dole dole dole (Music: Hridyanath
Mangeshkar, Lyrics: Salil) has the starting line - "haiyo re maar
zor". The word "zor" (strong) would always be pronounced as "jor" in
"official" settings.
So adding to Neha's addendum - there are now 3 languages with the "za"
sound. Are there different "varna" (letters) for the "za" sound in
Telegu or Marathi? Or is it a variant pronunciation of the letter
"ja" as it is in Bengali. Ofcourse, I am assuming that both Telegu
and Marathi have the letter "ja" derived from Sanskrit but here I may
be wrong.
Regards,
-Arup
Afzal A. Khan
The 'z' sound is very much there in Urdu. In fact,
there are four (4) different letters in the alphabet
which denote this sound. Different words containing
the 'z' sound are spelled by using one of these
four letters. For example, 'zabardast' is
spelled with the letter "ze"; the word 'zara'
(meaning 'thoRa' or little) is spelled with the
letter "zaal"; the word 'zulm' is spelled with
the letter "zoe" and the word 'fiza' is spelled
with the letter "zwaad". This last letter is
pronounced a little differently in the Arabic
language ("dwaad") --- but we need not be concerned
about that pronunciation.
What is more, there is another sound "zh" (similar
to the French 'j', as in "je suis"), which is
denoted in Urdu by the letter "zhe". One word
containing this sound is "zhaala-baari" which
means a 'hailstorm".
As so many examples cited have shown, a particular
sound may be pronounced differently by people from
different regions. Another example : I cannot
quite articulate the Marathi letter "ch", as
in "amchi pustak".
Afzal
UVR
> Are you SURE there's a "z" or "za" alphabet native to Telugu?
Yes, I am. But note, again, that this isn't the "pure" 'za'.
> I lived 20 years in Hyderabad and can't recall hearing anyone say
> "zabilli" and in script it is clearly "jaabilli".
Who speaks "Telugu" in Hyderabad? unno.n sab logaa.N "Urdu" bolte, na_i.N?
<emphasize>
Just kidding.
</emphasize>
> Is there a way to
> write "za" in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none,
From my earlier post:
> > In print, this letter looks like a 'ja' with a modifier placed ON TOP.
You know how to write "yuktamu"? Take that 'ta'-vottu and put it
ON TOP of the 'ja'. That's how [I learnt] it's written. Same's the
case with the 'tsa'. Write a 'cha' and put this mark on top of it.
> atleast in the telugu in use now.
This is true. I said as much in my earlier post. This character is
more-or-less obsolete now. Did you know how the classical singer
"vOlETi" Venkateswarlu used to write his surname? "v+e+U lE Ti"!
I don't think any one does that anymore. That's disappeared, also,
just like the two vowel characters that used to be here:
a A i I u U R^u R^U x X e E ai o O au ...
^^^ ^^^
and were used to transliterate Sanskrit words into Telugu.
> The only word I can recall with a
> "za" sound is "mozu" (craving), but even that is written as "moju".
Another word that appears to be native to Telugu (i.e., not borrowed
from another language, not even from Sanskrit) with the 'za' sound in it.
-UVR.
Surajit A. Bose
to those who don't care about Marathi vs. Hindi pronunciation, perhaps
not even to those who do.
Before anything else I should mention that just to keep Ashok's
pettifogging objections away, I am using iTrans convention here, and
paying full heed to the fact that iTrans represents script, not
pronunciation.
A short version of what follows: (1) the Nagari letters iTransed "ja",
"jha", and "cha" are each used to represent two sounds apiece in
Marathi. (2) One of the two sounds represented by each letter is the
same as the sound represented by that letter in Hindi. (3) The second
sound represented by "ja" in Marathi is the same as the sound
represented by "ja" with a nukta below it, or "za", in Hindi. (4) The
second sounds represented by "jha" and "cha" both have no equivalents in
Hindi pronunciation.
The long version:
In article <9fce8da1.01121...@posting.google.com>,
neha...@hotmail.com (Neha) wrote:
> Marathi has the 'z' sound, as in maaza, zaala, zop etc etc... So Telugu
> is _not_ the *only* language that has it.
No, that is not a "za" sound as in "zulm" or "zindagii". The sound you
are talking about is actually the way the letter "jha" is pronounced in
Marathi. The words you are using as examples would be iTransed "maajha",
"jhaala", "jhop". Even though the letter in these words is the same as
the Hindi "jha", the sound it represents is different from BOTH the
Hindi "jha" and the Hindi "za".
Let me see if I can explain the sound....Take the two Hindi letters that
are iTransed "ja" and "jha". When pronounced, the second is an aspirated
form of the first. Correct?
Now take the sound represented in iTrans by "za", and in the Hindi
script by the letter "ja" with a nukta or dot below it. Imagine if this
sound were aspirated. I.e. imagine a sound that stands in the same
relation to the Hindi "za" sound as the Hindi "jha" sound does to the
Hindi "ja" sound. That sound--an aspirated "za"--is how the letter
iTransed "jha" is usually pronounced in Marathi. That sound does not
exist in Hindi.
So the word iTransed "jhaa.Duu" ("broom") would look the same in Hindi
and Marathi. But the pronunciation is very different. (Is it still the
"same" word? Ah, that's a philosophical problem.)
To muddy the waters further, Marathi DOES have a sound which is more or
less the same sound as "jha" has in Hindi. The word "jhe.nDaa" (flag) is
pronounced with this sound....This sound is relatively rare in Marathi
but it does occur in a few instances.
In other words, the letter "jha" represents two different sounds in
Marathi. One is the same (more or less) as the sound represented by that
letter in Hindi, one is different. And spelling gives no indication of
the difference. You just have to know which pronunciation is called for
in any given word.
After all that rigmarole--Neha is nonetheless right, Marathi does have a
sound exactly like the initial sound in the English word "zig-zag". It
is written "ja". No nukta. Hindi writing maintains a distinction between
"ja" and "za" via the nukta. Although both sounds are present in
Marathi, they are written "ja" without any distinction. For example, the
words "jaaduu" (magic) and "jaagaa" (place) are written with the same
letter but are pronounced differently. The former is pronounced the same
way as the Hindi word. The latter uses the sound that in Hindi script is
"ja" with a nukta below it--in iTrans, "za". You just have to know....
In article <3C16D007...@yahoo.com>,
"Afzal A. Khan" <il_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> As so many examples cited have shown, a particular
> sound may be pronounced differently by people from
> different regions. Another example : I cannot
> quite articulate the Marathi letter "ch", as
> in "amchi pustak".
>
"cha" is another letter that has two different pronunciations in
Marathi. One pronunciation, in words like "chandra", is the same as the
way the letter is pronounced in Hindi.
The other one has no Hindi equivalent, so I can well imagine Afzal-bhai
having difficulty with it! This is the pronunciation in words like
"chor" (thief). I can't even begin to explain the sound, except to say
somewhat facetiously that the onomatopoeic English phrase "tsk, tsk"
seems to represent the same sound. You just have to hear it.
And again, you have to know when seeing a word written down which of the
two "cha" sounds the word calls for. (But in the phrase Afzal uses as an
example, the "cha" sound happens to be the same as in Hindi, so I don't
know where that particular difficulty arises!)
Whew! If you've read this post all the way through, I don't know which
to offer you, my gratitude or my sympathies. Both, I guess. Sorry....I
just like languages, and got carried away.
-s
Abhay Phadnis
> > different regions. Another example : I cannot
> > quite articulate the Marathi letter "ch", as
> > in "amchi pustak".
> two "cha" sounds the word calls for. (But in the phrase Afzal uses as an
> example, the "cha" sound happens to be the same as in Hindi, so I don't
> know where that particular difficulty arises!)
Er - not quite true! "amchi pustak" is meaningless - in the context of book
(neuter gender), it would have to be "aamacha" where the "cha" is pronounced
as in the Marathi pronunciation of "chor" or "chaal". In "aamachii" - used
when the gender of the 'possessed' is feminine - the "cha" is indeed the
same as in the Hindi pronuniciation of "chor".
A convoluted follow-up to a complicated posting! :-)
Warm regards,
Abhay
UVR
> Ravindra,
>
> [Note: I follow RTS - the defacto translit. scheme for Telugu on net.]
>
> The letters: "~c" (allophone of "ca" and "~j" (allophone of "ja"), which
> you believe to be "alphabets native to Telugu", were the creations of
> Charles Phillip Brown (1798-1889), whose contributions to Telugu are
> well known.
Really? I did NOT know this! I assumed that since this character
was in use once upon a time, and isn't in use any longer, it was
native to the script and had been dropped in recent decades by the
print media. Thanks for clearing the matter up.
> A native Telugu 'd always read "mOju" (in print) as "mO~ju".
> (S)He really doesn't need that "modifier placed ON TOP".
>
> Perhaps we 'd talk in detail about the influence of printing press on
> Indian languages. In fact, you rightly mentioned about vOlETi's way of
> writing his surname.
I'd be glad to do so via private e-mail. Of course, given my meager
knowledge of Telugu and its literature/history, I'll be doing less of
the 'talk'ing and more of the listening.
> Also a discussion on the "colonial knowledge systems" would help us in
> better understanding of this problem. But that 'd be discussing
> History/Anthropology on a list dedicated to Indian music.
>
> Regards,
> Sreenivas
-UVR.
Sreenivas Paruchuri
> > Are you SURE there's a "z" or "za" alphabet native to Telugu?
>
> Yes, I am. But note, again, that this isn't the "pure" 'za'.
> > Is there a way to
> > write "za" in telugu script? I am almost positive there is none,
>
> From my earlier post:
> > > In print, this letter looks like a 'ja' with a modifier placed ON TOP.
> You know how to write "yuktamu"? Take that 'ta'-vottu and put it
> ON TOP of the 'ja'. That's how [I learnt] it's written. Same's the
> case with the 'tsa'. Write a 'cha' and put this mark on top of it.
Ravindra,
[Note: I follow RTS - the defacto translit. scheme for Telugu on net.]
The letters: "~c" (allophone of "ca" and "~j" (allophone of "ja"), which
you believe to be "alphabets native to Telugu", were the creations of
Charles Phillip Brown (1798-1889), whose contributions to Telugu are
well known. A native Telugu 'd always read "mOju" (in print) as "mO~ju".
(S)He really doesn't need that "modifier placed ON TOP".
Perhaps we 'd talk in detail about the influence of printing press on
Indian languages. In fact, you rightly mentioned about vOlETi's way of
writing his surname.
Also a discussion on the "colonial knowledge systems" would help us in
J. K. Mohana Rao
> Marathi has the 'z' sound, as in maaza, zaala, zop etc etc... So Telugu
> is _not_ the *only* language that has it.
I believe Kashmiri too has these sounds. - J K Mohana Rao
Ket...@att.net
That's an understatement : Kashmiri seems to have ONLY these 'z' sounds.
After a while all those zzzzzzz's make it one heck of a sleepy language. :)
Shields up--Spock!
Ketan
Kamalakar Pasupuleti
news:3C191439...@gmx.de...
>The reply sent by me in response to your mail is bouncing for reasons not known,can you getback to me.
Kamalakar
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
shubhak...@gmail.com
> Hi !
>
> I am trying to make a list of ALL Shankar Jaikishan songs in Bhairavi.
> Could you help by adding the titles in this thread.
>
> I am told
> Jaanewale zara hoshiyaar from Rajkumar
> Juhi ki kali meri laadli from Dil Ek Mandir
>
>
> There are probably hindreds more ...
> Please add ...
>
> Thanks
>
> SK
tune haye mere zakhm e jigar ko chhoo liya -- lata, Nagina
Shubha Khandekar
dhiren...@gmail.com
Can you send me the list of songs based on raag bhairvi by shankar jai kishan at my email add :dhiren...@gmail.com