Meaning of .....
Kanti Shah
These are the beginning words from the song "hue hum jinke liye barbad" sung
by Mohd. Rafi from film Deedar(1951).
Could anyone let me know the meaning of the above ?
Regards
Kanti Shah
yogesh...@my-deja.com
There has been no response to this, so let me take a crack at it:
asiir-e-pa.nje, ahad-e-shabaab kar ke mujhe
kahaa.n gayaa meraa bachapan kharaab kar ke mujhe
asiir = captive
pa.njaa = hand ; pl. pa.nje
asiir-e-pa.nje = haatho.n me.n haath (locked hands )
ahad-e-shabaab = bachapan kaa vaadaa (youthful promise)
It is a lament. To put it in proper perspective, you will have to recall
the earlier song of the movie: 'bachapan ke din bhulaa na denaa'. As
they grow up, Nargis forgets all about the childhood promises but Dilip
remembers and continues to be haunted by the memories of the promises
made with locked hands.
This is one of my favorite ghazals! Shakeel, Naushad and Rafi - they
all shine!
Regards
Yogesh Sethi
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
il_kh...@my-deja.com
With due respect, here "Ahd" does not mean "promise", but
"period" --- as in "time". Also, panja (meaning "hand"
or rather "grip") is used in the singular; since the word
is used in the possessive case, it is pronounced as
"panja-e".
As Mr. Sethi has correctly observed, this is a lament.
The poet (or lover) has a complaint against his "child-
hood" which has deserted him, leaving him in the "grip"
of "youth" or the "period of youth" (to transliterate
"ahd-e-shabaab"). The lover longs for his childhood
during which he at least had the company of his beloved.
A memorable song from a memorable score !
Afzal
has...@my-deja.com
"Kanti Shah" <ka...@shah92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> "Aseere pun jaaye, ahede shabab karke mujhe"
Kanti bhai adaab:
aapkay sawaal per merii naZar kal paRii. aapkay sawaaloN kay jawaabaat
haaZir-e-kHidmat haiN:
First of all this should be re-written CORRECCTLY as follows:
asiir-e-panjah-e-aHd-e-shabaab karkay mujhay
As probably you already know that the use of the letter 'e' between the
words means "OF" and if you have a chain of words connected with
letter 'e' then you have to READ BACKWARDS from the last word in the
chain to the first word; so, this what you get:
shabaab(jawaanii) kay (of) aHd (period) kay panjay (grip) kay asiir
(captive)
meaning:
the poet is simply saying that he has been held captive by the the
strong grip of his beloved's aHd-e-shabaab (best period of her jawaanii)
By the way, aHd means BOTH period and promise depending on the usage
and panjah means clutches, like panjah-e-baaz (claws of the eagle) AND
the word asiir means captive, slave etc.
This way of COINING COMPOUND WORDS follows PERSIAN language RULES!
I hope I have made it easier for the readers!
faqat kHaadim-e-Urdu,
Hashmat
Kanti Shah
Many, many thanks for you help.
Hashmat, my ignorance of Urdu is evident !!!
Your reply is certainly an education. Thanks.
Regards
--
Kanti Shah
Ashok
>
>In article <8durp1$238$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "Kanti Shah" <ka...@shah92.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> "Aseere pun jaaye, ahede shabab karke mujhe"
>>
>barbad" sung
>> by Mohd. Rafi from film Deedar(1951).
>>
>> Could anyone let me know the meaning of the above ?
>>
>>
>
>There has been no response to this, so let me take a crack at it:
Well, I kept quiet, becauase I was heeding the admonition of
"My Friend the Fanatic" Irfan Moinuddin against dictionary-based
interpretation, uninformed by literary tradition. It is also the
case that knowing the meanings of individual words don't help when
one is confronted with a whole chain of izaafat; it's worse when
words have alternative meanings, e.g., "ahd". So, herewith some
problems I have with Yogesh's interpretation.
>asiir-e-pa.nje, ahad-e-shabaab kar ke mujhe
>kahaa.n gayaa meraa bachapan kharaab kar ke mujhe
>
>asiir = captive
>pa.njaa = hand ; pl. pa.nje
>asiir-e-pa.nje = haatho.n me.n haath (locked hands )
>ahad-e-shabaab = bachapan kaa vaadaa (youthful promise)
>It is a lament. To put it in proper perspective, you will have to recall
>the earlier song of the movie: 'bachapan ke din bhulaa na denaa'. As
>they grow up, Nargis forgets all about the childhood promises but Dilip
>remembers and continues to be haunted by the memories of the promises
>made with locked hands.
I think the first line is
aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
"ahd" also means time or period, in addition to promise. And, I don't
know if "aseer-e-panjaa" has a benign connotation as locked hands in
the Urdu literary tradition, but in common Hindustani usage, "panjaa"
brings to mind something sinister, such as "claw", "clutch", or
"grasp." Also, you seem to be equating "shabaab" and "bachpan".
To my mind "shabaab" is the stage after "bachpan".
Finally, coming to the second line, there are no difficult words, but
I see an ambiguity in parsing it. One alternative is:
kahaa.N gayaa, meraa bachpan Kharaab kar_ke mujhe
If so, the "mujhe" has to be treated something like "mere liye"; it is
still inelegant. But there is a more serious problem: What is the subject
of "kahaa.N gayaa"? Can't be his saheli Nargis. The second alternative
is to read the line as:
kahaa.N gayaa meraa bach_pan, Kharaab kar_ke mujhe
But then "bachpan" will have to make sense with the first line also.
Perhaps he is lamenting that his childhood got lost, held captive in
the grip of dreams of youth. Intriguing, but I am not sure.
>This is one of my favorite ghazals! Shakeel, Naushad and Rafi - they
>all shine!
>
>Regards
>
>Yogesh Sethi
Incidentally, the main song is not a ghazal, althought the two lines
of the prelude she'r lead one to expect a ghazal. Do you mean that the
she'r is used elsewhere in a ghazal by Shakeel? Here's the rest of the
song. The words were posted eons ago by, of all the people, our
"Mukesh's voice is better than it sounds" dude, as someone used to
refer to him!
hue hum jin ke lie bar_baad
vo ham ko chaahe kare na yaad
jeevan bhar,
jeevan bhar un kii yaad me.n
ham gaae jaae.nge, gaae jaae.nge
hue ham ...
ek zamaanaa thaa vo pal bhar ham se rahe naa duur
ham se rahe naa duur
ek zamaanaa ye ke hue hai.n milane se maj_buur
milane se maj_buur
vo Gham se laakh rahe aazaad
sune naa dar_d bharii fariyaad
af_saanaa,
af_saana ham to pyaar kaa
doharaae jaae.nge, gaae jaae.nge...
hue ham ...
mai.n huu.N aisaa diip ke jis me.n naa baatii naa tel
naa baatii naa tel
bachapan biitaa bani mohabbat chaar dino.n kaa khel
chaar dino.n kaa khel
rahe ye dil kaa nagar aabaad
basii hai jis me.n kisii kii yaad
ham dil ko,
ham dil ko un kii yaad se
bahalaae jaae.nge, gaae jaayenge...
hue ham jin ke lie bar_baad...
The Nitin Bose film of 1951 is one of the landmark films.
So much so that Vikram Seth uses 'Deedar' to fill in the
picture of India of that era in his "A Suitable Boy."
Musically, the film represented a crossroad of sorts for
Naushad, regarding the choice of playback singers and
given Naushad's pivotal position then, his choice perhaps
influenced future developments. I can't help feeling that
he didn't choose well.
Looks like Naushad hadn't yet clearly backed Shamshad or
Lata by the time he was composing 'Deedar.' The mixed
choice one saw in 'Babul' earlier continues here, but
the weight is in favour of Lata. In the following year,
he went whole hog for Lata with 'Baiju Bawra.' After that
Shamshad got only an occasional bone from Naushad, in
'Mother India', 'Mughal-e-Azam' and later 'Pakeezah'.
Why didn't he continue the mixed mode, so that a singer of
the calibre of Shamshad wouldn't get marginalized? The
evidence from the soundtrack itself should have favoured
Shamshad. Lata has three solos, but only one is even
half-way decent:
. le jaa meri duaaye.n pardes jaanevaale
The other two are pleasant, but quite trivial:
. duniyaa ne teri duniyaavaale, sukh chain hamaaraa
chheen liyaa
and
. tu kaun hai meraa keh de baalam.
The duet with Rafi is better:
. dekh liyaa mai.n ne, qismat kaa tamaashaa dekh liyaa
And the song that shines is her duet with Shamshad:
. bach_pan ke din bhulaa na denaa
The best female solo from the soundtrack comes from
Shamshad, a rendition so powerful that it blows away
Lata's wispy efforts:
. chaman me.n reh_ke veeraanaa meraa dil hotaa jaataa hai
Coming to male singers, Naushad had used Talat to good effect
in 'Babul.' It is quite an enigma why Naushad dumped him so
unceremoniously after that. Consder this, in the years that
followed Naushad made less use of Talat than any of the leading
music directors, including OP Nayyar. The only explanation
offered is ludicrous: that Naushad was offended because Talat
smoked in his presence!
'Deedar' songs of Rafi showcase both his strength and weakness
as a singer: his wonderful ability to reach the high notes
smoothly and effortlessly and his tendency to evoke sadness
artificially by resorting to singing as if crying. In fact,
one can hear the two aspects literally next to each other in
the two celebrated solos. And right from the beginning. The
majestic opening two words "meri kahaani" is followed by an
ungainly "bhoolanevaale". The soaring " aaj qinaare par aake"
is immediately followed by a pathetic pathos of "aramaano.n ki
qashti Doob gayi." In the present song also, compare the line
"naa baati naa tel" with the next line "chaar dino.n kaa khel."
Another singer to get short shrift from almost all music directors
makes an appearance in an interesting duet with Shamshad in the
score: GM Durrani in
, nazar phero na ham se, ham hai.n tum pe marnevaalo.n me.n
Such cameo use of interesting singers also declined in the subsequent
soundtracks of Naushad.
'Deedar' shows a music director who used to have the versatility to
make effective use of a wide-ranging set of voices now headed toward
being the most uni-dimensional of them all.
Ashok
Preeti Ranjan Panda
ADhar...@CrossWinds.Net (Ashok) wrote:
...
> aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
Are there precedence and associativity rules governing the "-e-" and
"-o-" operators in the grammar? :-) We have here "A-e-B-e-C-e-D",
which has been conveniently grouped into "(A-e-B)-e-(C-e-D)" because
that makes most sense (not really right associative, as someone hinted
earlier in the thread). But could some other grouping also be valid?
Not with these words of course, but is there a construction where
(A-e-B-e-C)-e-D makes sense? Example? Also, seems to me that "-e-"
binds tighter than "-o-". True always? (sticking only to the "of"
interpretation of "-e-"). What about comma? Does it, or an equivalent,
exist in urdu?
> Finally, coming to the second line, there are no difficult words, but
> I see an ambiguity in parsing it. One alternative is:
>
> kahaa.N gayaa, meraa bachpan Kharaab kar_ke mujhe
>
> If so, the "mujhe" has to be treated something like "mere liye"; it is
> still inelegant. But there is a more serious problem: What is the
subject
> of "kahaa.N gayaa"? Can't be his saheli Nargis. The second
alternative
> is to read the line as:
>
> kahaa.N gayaa meraa bach_pan, Kharaab kar_ke mujhe
>
> But then "bachpan" will have to make sense with the first line also.
> Perhaps he is lamenting that his childhood got lost, held captive in
> the grip of dreams of youth. Intriguing, but I am not sure.
I am surprised that you are considering the first alternative at all.
It would be valid only if the "mujhe" was absent. As someone recently
advised, "if one interpretation makes no sense, and the second makes
some sense..." :-) But I also have a problem with your second
interpretation. I think the lament is not that his childhood got lost
dreaming about youth, but that it has gone away, leaving him captive
in his youth.
regards,
Preeti Ranjan
---------------------------------------
Mukesh's voice is better than it sounds
---------------------------------------
PS: Looks like the newsgroup is once again
"aseer-e-panja-e-CAPS-LOCK-wielding-dudes"
has...@my-deja.com
adaab,
Please see my posting in the chain that might help you. I'm in a bit of
hurry right now. I may come back to address your querry.
faqat kHaaksaar,
Hashmat
________________________________________________________________________
In article <8eah2i$3gg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Preeti Ranjan Panda <pa...@synopsys.com> wrote:
> In article <8e9t9...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@CrossWinds.Net (Ashok) wrote:
> ...
> > aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
>
> Are there precedence and associativity rules governing the "-e-" and
> "-o-" operators in the grammar? :-) We have here "A-e-B-e-C-e-D",
> which has been conveniently grouped into "(A-e-B)-e-(C-e-D)" because
> that makes most sense (not really right associative, as someone hinted
> earlier in the thread). But could some other grouping also be valid?
> Not with these words of course, but is there a construction where
> (A-e-B-e-C)-e-D makes sense? Example? Also, seems to me that "-e-"
> binds tighter than "-o-". True always? (sticking only to the "of"
> interpretation of "-e-"). What about comma? Does it, or an equivalent,
> exist in urdu?
>
> > Finally, coming to the second line, there are no difficult words,
but
> > I see an ambiguity in parsing it. One alternative is:
> >
> > kahaa.N gayaa, meraa bachpan Kharaab kar_ke mujhe
> >
> > If so, the "mujhe" has to be treated something like "mere liye"; it
is
> > still inelegant. But there is a more serious problem: What is the
> subject
> > of "kahaa.N gayaa"? Can't be his saheli Nargis. The second
> alternative
> > is to read the line as:
> >
> > kahaa.N gayaa meraa bach_pan, Kharaab kar_ke mujhe
> >
> > But then "bachpan" will have to make sense with the first line also.
> > Perhaps he is lamenting that his childhood got lost, held captive in
> > the grip of dreams of youth. Intriguing, but I am not sure.
>
> I am surprised that you are considering the first alternative at all.
> It would be valid only if the "mujhe" was absent. As someone recently
> advised, "if one interpretation makes no sense, and the second makes
> some sense..." :-) But I also have a problem with your second
> interpretation. I think the lament is not that his childhood got lost
> dreaming about youth, but that it has gone away, leaving him captive
> in his youth.
>
> regards,
> Preeti Ranjan
> ---------------------------------------
> Mukesh's voice is better than it sounds
yogesh...@my-deja.com
>
> aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
>
I missed 'pa.njaa-e'. But let me ask: how did you arrive at 'pa.njaa-e'
and not 'pa.nje'? Do you have access to a written version of the poem?
Rafi very clearly sings pa.nje. Should there be some difference in the
two pronunciations? How are we to determine from the rendition that it
is 'pa.njaa-e' and not 'pa.nje'?
While on the whole, I find the interpretation offered by Afzal quit
plausible, the words 'kar ke mujhe' still leaves some lingering doubts.
Perhaps there is another interpretation that has escaped us all!
> Coming to male singers, Naushad had used Talat to good effect
> in 'Babul.' It is quite an enigma why Naushad dumped him so
> unceremoniously after that. Consder this, in the years that
> followed Naushad made less use of Talat than any of the leading
> music directors, including OP Nayyar. The only explanation
> offered is ludicrous: that Naushad was offended because Talat
> smoked in his presence!
>
I read an article which said the same thing about Anil Biswas: 'He
never forgave Talat for smoking in front of him'. It seems that smoking
may have cost Talat more than he bargained for.
Yogesh Sethi
Irfan Moinuddin
Looks like there has been a recent spark of interest
in shayari on rmim. It's very refreshing
but perhaps a diversion from music.
But I, of course, am the last to complain!!!
On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Preeti Ranjan Panda wrote:
> In article <8e9t9...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@CrossWinds.Net (Ashok) wrote:
> ...
> > aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
>
> Are there precedence and associativity rules governing the "-e-" and
> "-o-" operators in the grammar? :-) We have here "A-e-B-e-C-e-D",
> which has been conveniently grouped into "(A-e-B)-e-(C-e-D)" because
actually, it makes most to sense to interpret the izafat as
follows:
a-e-(b-e-(c-e-(d)))
let me diverge here and describe a different construction:
words like aalam-panah, which somebody inquired about
earlier, are almost a reverse form of izafat.
Ex.
aalam-panah = panah-e-aalam
exceptions are words like
sang dil which does not mean dil-e-sang but
describes a person with a heart of stone.
when it comes to -o- and mixtures of -o- and -e-, your
above interpretation becomes more valid.
Ex:
khayalat-o-tasawwurat-e-shu'ra-o-faylasuf
> interpretation of "-e-"). What about comma? Does it, or an equivalent,
> exist in urdu?
yes, commas do exist in urdu.
Irfan
*********************************
Irfan Moinuddin
-------------------------------------------
http://icarus.uic.edu/~imoinu1/irfsome.html
-------------------------------------------
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Irfan Moinuddin
> > I think the first line is
> >
> > aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
> >
>
> and not 'pa.nje'? Do you have access to a written version of the poem?
>
A very preliminary analysis of meter suggests that
panja-e- is the valid pronunciation.
Irfan
has...@my-deja.com
yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8e9t9...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@CrossWinds.Net (Ashok) wrote:
> >
> >
> > aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
> >
>
e'
> and not 'pa.nje'? Do you have access to a written version of the poem?
>
the
> two pronunciations? How are we to determine from the rendition that it
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yogesh Sahab:
sab say pahlay to maiN is miSr'ay ko SaHiiH raqm kar duuN:
asiir-e-panjah-e-'Ahd-e-shabaab kar kay mujhay
aap kay sawaaloN kaa jawaab daynay kii koshish kar rahaa huuN. dekhiye
agar yeh miSr'a URDU-SCRIPT mayN hotaa toe naa hii aap yeh sawaalaat
kartay aur naa hii mujhay yeh jawaabaat qalam~baNd karnay kii Zaruurat
paRtii!
maiN hamayshah say yeh kahtaa chalaa aa rahaa huuN ki agar urdu ROMAN-
SCRIPT mayN likhnay kay Alaawah agar koii aur chaarah nahiiN to phir
isko huu-ba-huu waisay hii likhnaa paRegaa jaisaa ki urdu-script mayN
likhaa hotaa (kam-az-kam) taki "CONFUSION" ki sar~kuubii ho sakay!
mi'Saal kay 'taur per do alaafZ 'zehn mayN aa rahay haiN aur woh alaafZ
haiN:
sahii (siin, chhotii hay and yey), AUR
SaHiiH (suad, baRii Hay, yey and baRii Hay)
ab in donoN alfaaZ mayN kisii Suurat toe farq numaayaaN karnaa paRegaa!
isii liiye "HIJJAY" aur "talaffuZ" kii SaHiiH adaigii be~Hadd Zaruurii
hai kyuuNki urdu rasm-ul-kHa't mayN muta'addid Huruuf haiN jo sunnay
mayN yaksaaN lagtay hai!
WHY DO WE HAVE TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE TWO WORDS?
woh is liye ki lafZ-e-"sahii" say koyii duusraa murakkab lafZ nahiiN
bana saktay jabki lafZ-e-"SaHiiH" kay aur bhii 'forms' haiN, jaisay
kisii nay eik roz lafZ "tashii" likhaa! is mayN kyaa gHala'tii hai? yeh
hai ki 'aam aadmii jisko urdu kii fehm kam hai who "tashii" paRhaygaa
(with 'sh' sound) dar~Haqiiqat SaHiiH lafZ hai "taSHiiH" (tay, suad,
barii Hay, yey and baRii Hay)!
This is the REASON WHY SaHiiH "talaffuZ" and SaHiiH "HIJJAY" is
IMPORTANT and INDISPENSEABLE! This takes care of UNWANTED CONFUSION
from often-sloppy writings!
Why is this word Panjah-e-... and NOT panjay because in URDU-SCRIPT the
two words will be written as:
panjah-e... AND panjay
the former being SINGULAR while the latter is PLURAL!
________________________________________________________________________
Sorry, I got to go NOW. I will CONTINUE tomorrow!
faqat kHaaksaar,
Hashmat
yogesh...@my-deja.com
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100042...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>,
Irfan Moinuddin <imo...@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:
> > >...
> > > aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
> > >
>
> A very preliminary analysis of meter suggests that
> panja-e- is the valid pronunciation.
>
I listened to the song again - Rafi very clearly pronounces 'pa.nje'.
I do not hear an 'aa' sound between 'j' and 'e'. Are you suggesting that
there is no difference in the pronunciations of 'pa.njaa-e' and
'pa.nje' and both can be pronounced as 'pa.nje' ?
Yogesh
il_kh...@my-deja.com
yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8e9t9...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> ADhar...@CrossWinds.Net (Ashok) wrote:
> >
> >
> > aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
> >
>
> and not 'pa.nje'? Do you have access to a written version of the poem?
>
> Rafi very clearly sings pa.nje. Should there be some difference in
the
> two pronunciations? How are we to determine from the rendition that it
> is 'pa.njaa-e' and not 'pa.nje'?
>
> plausible, the words 'kar ke mujhe' still leaves some lingering
doubts.
> Perhaps there is another interpretation that has escaped us all!
> Yogesh Sethi
I think the confusion about "panja" is caused by
the use of two "a's" which makes the pronunciation rather
elongated and also disturbs the meter. I think it would be
more appropriate to refer to it with a single 'a" as ---
"panja-e". There will still be some difficulty for a
person not familiar with the Urdu script, as the "dash"
before "e" causes a certain "pause" in pronunciation. In
the Urdu script, such words are written with a "hamza", which
links the 'a' and 'e' sounds into a fluent mix. For instance,
an expression like "namoona-e-tanz" (example of sarcasm) should
actually be pronounced without any pause, the 'a and 'e' being
pronounced together in a sound almost like "aye".
I am sorry I have to disagree with Mr. Sethi when he
says that Rafi pronounces the word as a straight "panje", as
if it is the plural of "panja". In fact, the "hamza"
inflection is very evident. In those days (1951) when the
use (and understanding) of Urdu was much more prevalent than
today, a "transgression" like this would have caused a hue
and cry. Neither Shakeel nor Naushad would have allowed any
gross mispronunciation to remain uncorrected. Other RMIMers
can also listen to this song and give their verdict.
I do not quite follow what lingering doubts are still
there about the words "kar ke mujhe". In both misras,
the subject of these words is "mera bachpan". To para-
phrase, the poet says :
"Mera bachpan mujhe jawani ki giraft men chhor kar
chala gaya. Woh (mera bachpan) to mujhe Kharaab kar
ke (after ruining my happiness) chala gaya, ab main use
kahaan dhooNdooN ? (How can I go back to those blissful
years of my childhood (when I had the company of my
beloved) ?"
Afzal
yogesh...@my-deja.com
il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8edcd2$7vr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8e9t9...@news1.newsguy.com>,
> > ADhar...@CrossWinds.Net (Ashok) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > aseer-e-pa.njaa-e-ahd-e-shabaab kar_ke mujhe
> > >
> >
> 'pa.njaa-e'
> > and not 'pa.nje'? Do you have access to a written version of the
poem?
> >
> > Rafi very clearly sings pa.nje. Should there be some difference in
> the
> > two pronunciations? How are we to determine from the rendition that
it
> > is 'pa.njaa-e' and not 'pa.nje'?
> >
>
> the use of two "a's" which makes the pronunciation rather
> elongated and also disturbs the meter. I think it would be
> more appropriate to refer to it with a single 'a" as ---
> "panja-e".
Yes, it is a limitation of ITRANS transliteration scheme that many of us
use. It does cause an occasional confusion with such words.
> There will still be some difficulty for a
> person not familiar with the Urdu script, as the "dash"
> before "e" causes a certain "pause" in pronunciation. In
> the Urdu script, such words are written with a "hamza", which
> links the 'a' and 'e' sounds into a fluent mix.
I am quite familiar with Urdu script and for me that was not a problem.
> I have to disagree ...
> that Rafi pronounces the word as a straight "panje", as
> if it is the plural of "panja". In fact, the "hamza"
> inflection is very evident.
This is the key point. The fault lies in my hearing. You hear the
'inflection' and I don't. But if we accept the inflection the rest
becomes clear.
Yogesh
vulcan
what little i know, i try:
aseer= qaidi, prisoner
pun jaaye = (corrected) punjaa-e (punja=as in "hand")
ahede= (corrected) ahed-e = (ahed=promise)
shabaab = jawani, youth
aseer-e-punja-e-ahed-e-shabab kar ke mujhe
kahan gaya mera bachpan kharaab kar ke mujhe ( please correct me)
the meaning is:=
"making me a prisoner of the promises of youth, my childhood has renounced me"
opinions are welcome.
-vulcan
Kanti Shah wrote:
>
> "Aseere pun jaaye, ahede shabab karke mujhe"
>
> These are the beginning words from the song "hue hum jinke liye barbad" sung
> by Mohd. Rafi from film Deedar(1951).
>
> Could anyone let me know the meaning of the above ?
>
> Regards
>
> Kanti Shah
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Deja.com: Before you buy.
> http://www.deja.com/
> * To modify or remove your subscription, go to
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> * Read this thread at
> http://www.deja.com/thread/%3C8durp1%24238%241%40newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk%3E
Irfan Moinuddin
> I am sorry I have to disagree with Mr. Sethi when he
> if it is the plural of "panja".
Afzal bhai,
first of all, let me emphasize that from the nature of
the misra, it becomes all too obvious that the word panja
is part of an izafat.
This automatically rules out that the word in the izafat
is "panje".
Plural endings that are not persian or arabic are not
allowed in izafat.
the word 'panje' is an urdu plural form of panja and is
not permissible in izafat.
Persian plural endings for inanimate words include the
following:
ha ex: saal, saalha; baar, baarha; khana, khanaha
gaN ex: banda, bandagaN
yaN ex: parsa, parsayaN
some persian plural endings are borrowed from arabic:
aat ex: zewar, zewaraat; kaagaz, kaagazaat
jaat ex: nama, namajaat
For the word panja, use of a persian plural in urdu is uncommon.
However, panje is not admissible in izafat.
Therefore, it is completely irrelevant to even
consider the plural panje in this misra.
The only considerations include panja-e- which is
the most valid and the alternative contraction
panj-e which is not esteemed but does exist.
This is why I used metrical analysis to deduce
that panja-e was the valid pronunciation in this sher.
All commentary must occur with this in mind.
> In fact, the "hamza"
> inflection is very evident. In those days (1951) when the
> use (and understanding) of Urdu was much more prevalent than
> today, a "transgression" like this would have caused a hue
> and cry. Neither Shakeel nor Naushad would have allowed any
> gross mispronunciation to remain uncorrected. Other RMIMers
> can also listen to this song and give their verdict.
These statements seem to be perhaps anecdotal and biased.
I would like you to substantiate these statements with
evidence from the literature. I'm not saying I disagree;
one just needs to substantiate one's statements, that's all.
Irfan.
>
> Afzal
vulcan
did not reach the group. hence sending again. sorry if you receive it twice.
> hi dear kanti,
> what little i know, i try:
>
> aseer= qaidi, prisoner
> pun jaaye = (corrected) punjaa-e (punja=as in "hand")
> ahede= (corrected) ahed-e = (ahed=promise)
> shabaab = jawani, youth
>
> aseer-e-punja-e-ahed-e-shabab kar ke mujhe
> kahan gaya mera bachpan kharaab kar ke mujhe ( please correct me)
>
> the meaning is:=
> "making me a prisoner of the promises of youth, my childhood has renounced me"
>
> opinions are welcome.
> --------------------------
> Kanti Shah wrote:
>
> >
> > "Aseere pun jaaye, ahede shabab karke mujhe"
> >
> > These are the beginning words from the song "hue hum jinke liye barbad" sung
> > by Mohd. Rafi from film Deedar(1951).
> >
> > Could anyone let me know the meaning of the above ?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Kanti Shah
> >
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
yogesh...@my-deja.com
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>,
> ...
> Plural endings that are not persian or arabic are not
> allowed in izafat.
> the word 'panje' is an urdu plural form of panja and is
> not permissible in izafat.
>
Thank you for a conclusive 'tashriih'!
The use of an Urdu plural of such words, though rare, is not completely
unheard of. For example 'ye aawaare baadal' can be accepted. But that
such plurals cannot be used in 'izafat' is a good piece of information.
A minor point still remains unanswered:
Irrespective of how Rafi carries this particular line of the song, is
there a difference in the pronunciations of 'pa.nja-e' and 'pa.nje'. And
if so, would the 'hamza' inflection be sufficiently pronounced so as to
be discernable or is the difference so subtle that only the context can
make it clear?
Yogesh
il_kh...@my-deja.com
yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> The use of an Urdu plural of such words, though rare, is not
completely
> unheard of. For example 'ye aawaare baadal' can be accepted.
> Yogesh
I doubt whether "ye aawaare baadal" can be accepted.
Example : The "Awaara" song :
"Baadal ki tarah awaara thhe hum".
Intrinsically, "baadal" has no plural form.
"Baadal ne chaand ko chhupa diya" and
"Aasmaan par baadal chha gaye" are both acceptable.
Afzal
yogesh...@my-deja.com
il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I doubt whether "ye aawaare baadal" can be accepted.
> ...
> Intrinsically, "baadal" has no plural form.
>
How can that be?
I believe that 'baadal' is both singular and plural. Just like fish is
jumping or fish are jumping.
We normally say 'aakaash me.n baadal chhaa rahe hai.n', indicating a
plural use of 'baadal'. You would hardly say that 'aakaash me.n baadal
chhaa rahaa hai' ?
Yogesh
il_kh...@my-deja.com
yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8enrt9$c3v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I doubt whether "ye aawaare baadal" can be accepted.
> > ...
> > Intrinsically, "baadal" has no plural form.
> >
> How can that be?
>
> I believe that 'baadal' is both singular and plural. Just like fish is
> jumping or fish are jumping.
>
> We normally say 'aakaash me.n baadal chhaa rahe hai.n', indicating a
> plural use of 'baadal'. You would hardly say that 'aakaash me.n baadal
> chhaa rahaa hai' ?
>
> Yogesh
I had stated that there is no plural "form" (like
qalb/quloob or kitaab/kutub). But "baadal" can be
used both as singular and as plural. I had cited
two sentences as example. As regards the use of
this word in singular, here is the first line of
a well-known "masnawi" by Mohsin Kakorwi :
"Simt Kaashi se chala jaanib-e-Mathura baadal..."
Another problem is with the word "awaara". I don't
think I have come across its use in the plural.
We say : "yeh awaara laRka school nahiN jaata" and
"Yeh awaara laRke kabhi school hi nahiN jaate".
We can hardly say : "Yeh awaare laRke kabhi...."
^^^^^^
Afzal
surjit...@yahoo.com
This may be a difference between hindi and urdu, but there is a song,
"dharatii se duur gore baadalon ke paar" sangadil (1952).
Also, my urdu dictionary (published by firozsons, lahore) explains that
baadal ghir aanaa means aasmaan par baadalon kaa jamaa hona.
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
yogesh...@my-deja.com
il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8eo0r1$h8e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8enrt9$c3v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I doubt whether "ye aawaare baadal" can be accepted.
> > > ...
>
> think I have come across its use in the plural.
> We say : "yeh awaara laRka school nahiN jaata" and
> "Yeh awaara laRke kabhi school hi nahiN jaate".
> We can hardly say : "Yeh awaare laRke kabhi...."
>
> Afzal
>
I had deliberately used the words 'aawaare baadal' hoping to provoke
this very question and I am glad you picked on it!
I have not come across 'aawaare' either. The question in my mind is why
not? Is it because of the awkward construction that is formed or is
there some linguistic restriction. Take for example the words : naalaa,
tehakhaanaa (cellar), tasmaa (lace), khemaa (tent), lamahaa (moment),
etc. We find their Urdu plurals in frequent use.
They are all of the same Persian origin and have a similar ending. So
what is so different about 'aawaaraa'?
Yogesh
il_kh...@my-deja.com
surjit...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <8eo2hu$j49$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8eo0r1$h8e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <8enrt9$c3v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I doubt whether "ye aawaare baadal" can be accepted.
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > How can that be?
> > >
> > > I believe that 'baadal' is both singular and plural. Just like
fish
> is
> > > jumping or fish are jumping.
> > >
> > > We normally say 'aakaash me.n baadal chhaa rahe hai.n', indicating
a
> > > plural use of 'baadal'. You would hardly say that 'aakaash me.n
> baadal
> > > chhaa rahaa hai' ?
> > >
> > > Yogesh
> >
> > I had stated that there is no plural "form" (like
> > qalb/quloob or kitaab/kutub). But "baadal" can be
> > used both as singular and as plural. I had cited
> > two sentences as example. As regards the use of
> > this word in singular, here is the first line of
> > a well-known "masnawi" by Mohsin Kakorwi :
> >
> > "Simt Kaashi se chala jaanib-e-Mathura baadal..."
> >
> > think I have come across its use in the plural.
> > We say : "yeh awaara laRka school nahiN jaata" and
> > "Yeh awaara laRke kabhi school hi nahiN jaate".
> > We can hardly say : "Yeh awaare laRke kabhi...."
>
>
> "dharatii se duur gore baadalon ke paar" sangadil (1952).
>
> Also, my urdu dictionary (published by firozsons, lahore) explains
that
>
> baadal ghir aanaa means aasmaan par baadalon kaa jamaa hona.
>
> Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
Of course, as I said, "baadal" can be used in the
plural sense also, e.g. "baadal chha gaye aur baarish
hone lagi". Also, words like "Baadalo" is used to
indicate plural usage, BUT "baadalo" or "baadaloN"
are not the plural forms of the word. In this respect,
"baadal" is like "aaNsoo". We can say "aaNsuoN", but
that is not really its plural form. There is a line
or misra from an old sher :
"Baadalo, hat jao, de do raah jaane ke liye"....
When we say "baadaloN", it has to be followed by a
"ka" or "ke".
Example of a word where there is a genuine plural :
why, the Urdu word for "word" itself !
"Yeh lafz saheeh hai" "magar yeh alfaaz Ghalat haiN".
Afzal
il_kh...@my-deja.com
yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8eo2hu$j49$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8eo0r1$h8e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <8enrt9$c3v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I doubt whether "ye aawaare baadal" can be accepted.
> > > > ...
> >
> > think I have come across its use in the plural.
> > We say : "yeh awaara laRka school nahiN jaata" and
> > "Yeh awaara laRke kabhi school hi nahiN jaate".
> > We can hardly say : "Yeh awaare laRke kabhi...."
> >
> > Afzal
> >
>
> I had deliberately used the words 'aawaare baadal' hoping to provoke
> this very question and I am glad you picked on it!
>
> I have not come across 'aawaare' either. The question in my mind is
why
> not? Is it because of the awkward construction that is formed or is
> there some linguistic restriction. Take for example the words :
naalaa,
> tehakhaanaa (cellar), tasmaa (lace), khemaa (tent), lamahaa (moment),
> etc. We find their Urdu plurals in frequent use.
>
> They are all of the same Persian origin and have a similar ending. So
> what is so different about 'aawaaraa'?
>
> Yogesh
For one thing, the five words cited above are all nouns,
whereas "awaara" is akin to an adjective. It is not
quite appropriate to say : "Chaar awaare nadi ki sair
ke liye nikle". But we can say : "Chaar awaara laRke
nadi ki sair ke liye nikle".
This seeming linguistic restriction is due presumably
to the awkward construction !
It just doesn't sound right.
Surajit
surjit...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <8eo2hu$j49$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8eo0r1$h8e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > yogesh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <8enrt9$c3v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I doubt whether "ye aawaare baadal" can be accepted.
> > > > ...
>
>
> "dharatii se duur gore baadalon ke paar" sangadil (1952).
>
> Also, my urdu dictionary (published by firozsons, lahore) explains that
>
> baadal ghir aanaa means aasmaan par baadalon kaa jamaa hona.
>
> Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
Speculations here from pure ignorance: neither of the examples you have
cited, Dr Singh, is in nominative or accusative case (kartaa kaarak or
karm kaarak). I think that the suffix "o.n" in the word "baadalo.n" is to
indicate a plural case ending rather than a plural per se. In nominative
or accusative case the plural of "baadal" is "baadal"--e.g. "chhaa gaye
baadal niil gagan par, ghul gayaa kajaraa saa.Njh Dhale," obviously Hindi
rather than Urdu, where baadal is the subject (nominative case). Or to
make up an example, "kal mai.nne ka_ii baadal dekhe" where baadal is the
direct object (accusative case). One would not say "baadale.n chhaa gaye"
or "ka_ii baadale.n dekhe."
English has no case endings, so a word with no separate plural form, like
"fish," remains the same irrespective of case: Fish live in the sea, I
saw many fish, the turtles swam next to the fish....But in an inflected
language like Hindi I don't think one can speak of singular and plural
forms without considering case endings. Another example that comes to
mind is "din": "bahut din biite" but "un dino.n me.n."
Or is this analysis completely wrong?
-s
yogesh...@my-deja.com
il_kh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> For one thing, the five words cited above are all nouns,
> whereas "awaara" is akin to an adjective. It is not
> quite appropriate to say : "Chaar awaare nadi ki sair
> ke liye nikle". But we can say : "Chaar awaara laRke
> nadi ki sair ke liye nikle".
> This seeming linguistic restriction is due presumably
> to the awkward construction !
> It just doesn't sound right.
>
> Afzal
>
Alright, let us take the word 'bechaaraa'. We do accept 'bechaaraa
laRkaa' as well as 'bechaare laRke'. So the question remains: why
'aawaare la.Dke' is not acceptable?
If awkward construction is the only reason, I can accept that. But the
other reasons do not seem to hold.
Yogesh
surjit...@yahoo.com
No, Exactly my point.I was simply reacting to afzal bhai saying that
baadal has no plural form. It is better to say that baadal is
self-plural in the nominative case.
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
>
> -s
Ashok
armour, hold your respective high horses, because your hoss are leading you
astray! No need to appeal to the Tehran Academy of Linguistics or move the Jedda
High Council into an emergency session for an opinion. "baadal" is an humble
Hindi word and as such doesn't give scope for arcane pedantry or self-congratulatory
punditry.
The plural of "baadal" is, surprise, "baadalo.n" in the combining cases and
"baadalo" in the 'sambhodhan' (address) case, as exemplified by the following
songs:
. baadalo.n me.n vaadiyo.n me.n Dhoo.nDho re kahii.n chal ke
from the pen of Majrooh for 'Arjun Pandit' of the 70s, sung by Lata for SDB.
As for "baadalo", there is the masterpiece by Vasant Desai to Bharat Vyas's
lovely words:
. baadalo baraso nayan ki kor se
bijaliyo ta.Dapo hriday ki or se
This is one of the best of Lata from 'Sampoorna Ramayan' from the early 60s.
And Shailendra weighs in with
. ey baadalo, rim_jhim ke ra.ng liye kahaa.N chale
Another melodious Lata song tuned by Hemant Kumar for 'Chand'.
There are many instances of plural "baadal", like
. ye ra.ng bhare baadal, ye u.Dataa huaa aa.nchal
Rafi and Asha for Ravi in 'Tu Nahin Aur Sahi' (Prem Dhawan? Majrooh?)
I wonder if these are just poetic licenses for metrical expediency,
something like: if the plural form of the noun doesn't fit the metre,
just use the singular form as plural.
Examples abound. Just one line has two:
. ye din kyaa aae, lage phool ha.Nsane
That is Yogesh Gaud in 'Chhoti Si Baat', Mukesh singing for Salil.
Alternatively, "baadal", "din", etc. might be both singular and
plural in the nominative. Any members of the Vardha Academy there?
Homework: Come up with examples for different manifestations of the
variant word "badalii".
Ashok
has...@my-deja.com
> The plural of "baadal" is, surprise, "baadalo.n" in the combining
cases and
> "baadalo" in the 'sambhodhan' (address) case, as exemplified by the
following
Hi,
I'm in a bit of HURRY, so I'll comment on one aspect of it ONLY, and
that is:
badlo (with a 'vaao' ending) means "ai badal" (O'cloud/s)
I may come back to this very TRIVIAL thing later!
Have a NICE and SUNNY DAY!
faqat kHaaksaar,
Hashmat
surjit...@yahoo.com
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
After a goodnight sleep, I am thinking of the following examples of
nominative case plurals. All cooked up examples, but possible.
baadalon ne kaalidaas se kahaa
baadalon ne paanii barasaayaa.
baadalon ne chandaa ko chhupaa liyaa.
I have to think again about what I said.
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
http://www.netcolony.com/entertainment/surjit/
has...@my-deja.com
> After a goodnight sleep, I am thinking of the following examples of
> nominative case plurals. All cooked up examples, but possible.
>
> baadalon ne kaalidaas se kahaa
>
> baadalon ne paanii barasaayaa.
>
> baadalon ne chandaa ko chhupaa liyaa.
Surjit Sahab:
Adab,
awwalan,dar~aSl lafZ-e-'badal' jo hai woh Hindi kaa lafZ hai le~haazaa
[le=for; haazaa=this (in Arabic)] AUR ISKAA ba-Hai'Siiyat SINGULAR
iste'ymaal bhii hotaa hai (badal aayaa aur paanii barsaayaa) aur ba-
Hai'Siiyat PLURAL bhii hotaa hai (kaalay kaalay baadal aaye!) lafZ-e-
badloN" bhii ba-Hai'Siiyat PLURAL istey'maal hotaa hai!
doem, yeh kii ak'Sar-o-beshtar eik 'eZaafii lafZ kaa bhii iste'ymaal
jaaiz hai aur woh lafZ hai "tukRaa" yaa "tukRay" yaa phir "tukRoN"!
iskaa iste'ymaal badal aur badloN kay saath ravaa hai!
yeh sab jumlay kii sakHt par muNHaSar hai!
faqat kHaaksaar,
Hashmat
P.S:
Please do READ IRFAN MOINUDDIN SAHAB'S and MY POSTS in this chain-of-
THREADS in order to get FURTHER INSIGHT! Thanks!
vulcan
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Irfan Moinuddin
All right folks, in badaloN ko maiN hi khamosh kar deta huN :-)
I will cite three fundamental rules of grammar and everything
will fall into place.
1) The nominative is crude; i.e. it has no postposition.
Nominative singular masculines ending in a consonant remain
unchanged in the nominative plural.
Ex: ghar, ghar
badal falls into this category.
2) The formative or oblique case includes nouns to
which postpositions are added. Possible postpositions
are as follows:
ne, ka, ko, se, meiN, par, pe
The formative case is created thus:
if the nominative ends in any letter except aa or a
(as in ladkaa or panja), the formative singular is
identical to the nominative singular and the formative
plural is formed by adding -oN to the singular.
Ex:
us badal ka rang kaala hai
badaloN se mujhe dar lagta hai
3) aawara is a persian adjective
The adjective, unless it ends in -aa or is derived from hindi,
is indeclinable.
Ex:
safed ghora, safed ghore, safed ghodi
aawara badal
Eik aawara badal aasmaN par bhatak raha hai
maiN ne aasmaN par eik aawara badal ko dekha
maiN ne aasmaN par kai aawara badaloN ko dekha
Irfan
yogesh...@my-deja.com
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>,
Irfan Moinuddin <imo...@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:
>
>
> I will cite three fundamental rules of grammar and everything
> will fall into place.
>
Good rules! But are there some exceptions? :-)
For example how do we deal with the following:
1) bistar is masculine ending in a consonant.
us ne ek bistar bichhaa diya hai.
us ne saare bistare bichhaa diye hai.n
3) The word bechaara is also persian and appears to be similar to aawara
in all respects. Again how do we account for the variations that follow:
Eik aawara badal aasmaN par bhatak raha hai
Eik bechaara la.Dkaa sa.Dak par bhatak raha hai
maiN ne aasmaN par eik aawara badal ko dekha
maiN ne sa.Dk par eik bechaare la.Dke ko dekha
maiN ne aasmaN par kai aawara badaloN ko dekha
maiN ne sa.Dak par kai bechaare la.DkoN ko dekha
maiN ne sa.Dak par kai bechaare la.Dke dekhe
Yogesh
Balaji A.S. Murthy
>
>In article
><Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>,
> Irfan Moinuddin <imo...@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:
>>
>> All right folks, in badaloN ko maiN hi khamosh kar deta huN :-)
>>
>> I will cite three fundamental rules of grammar and everything
>> will fall into place.
>>
>
>Good rules! But are there some exceptions? :-)
>
>For example how do we deal with the following:
>
>1) bistar is masculine ending in a consonant.
>
>us ne ek bistar bichhaa diya hai.
>us ne saare bistare bichhaa diye hai.n
>
>
>3) The word bechaara is also persian and appears to be similar to aawara
>in all respects. Again how do we account for the variations that follow:
>
>Eik aawara badal aasmaN par bhatak raha hai
>Eik bechaara la.Dkaa sa.Dak par bhatak raha hai
>
>maiN ne aasmaN par eik aawara badal ko dekha
>maiN ne sa.Dk par eik bechaare la.Dke ko dekha
>
>maiN ne aasmaN par kai aawara badaloN ko dekha
>maiN ne sa.Dak par kai bechaare la.DkoN ko dekha
>
>maiN ne sa.Dak par kai bechaare la.Dke dekhe
>
> Yogesh
bistare is a plural form of bistaraa, not bistar
- Balaji
il_kh...@my-deja.com
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>,
Irfan Moinuddin <imo...@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:
>
> All right folks, in badaloN ko maiN hi khamosh kar deta huN :-)
>
>
> Eik aawara badal aasmaN par bhatak raha hai
It may perhaps be preferable to omit "ko" and
say instead : "Main ne aasmaan par ek aawara
baadal dekha".
Afzal
vulcan
what i have read is that Talat wanted to become a hero so he did not take
music as a serious career, missed appointments etc. so people had to dump
him.
Also, talat's velvety voice is good for a very narrow range of songs,
extremely useful in ghazals on 3 or 4 instruments, but when rafi, kishor,
mukesh (not in any order :-) who were much more versatile became popular and
no. of instruments increased. talat's voice could not keep up.
---------------------
"yogesh...@my-deja.com" wrote:
>
> > Coming to male singers, Naushad had used Talat to good effect
> > in 'Babul.' It is quite an enigma why Naushad dumped him so
> > unceremoniously after that. Consder this, in the years that
> > followed Naushad made less use of Talat than any of the leading
> > music directors, including OP Nayyar. The only explanation
> > offered is ludicrous: that Naushad was offended because Talat
> > smoked in his presence!
> >
>
> I read an article which said the same thing about Anil Biswas: 'He
> never forgave Talat for smoking in front of him'. It seems that smoking
> may have cost Talat more than he bargained for.
>
> Yogesh Sethi
par...@webtv.net
it was pictureised on dilip kumar. hope this will help.
Irfan Moinuddin
> For example how do we deal with the following:
>
> 1) bistar is masculine ending in a consonant.
bistar is a persian word
It is true that persian words can be subject to
urdu rules, just like we use urdu endings to
derive urdu plurals (panja, panje)
>
> us ne ek bistar bichhaa diya hai.
> us ne saare bistare bichhaa diye hai.n
Hindi uses the word bistara, derived from the persian bistar.
From bistara, it seems reasonable to derive bistare, although
I have never heard it before. The derivation uses the rule
that nominative singulars ending in -aa are made nominative
plurals by adding -e: ladka, ladke etc.
For words that end in -aa, the formative singular is formed
by adding -e and the formative plural is formed by adding -oN.
So, using bistara as the nominative singular, one must say:
us ne bistare ko bicha diya hai
us ne bistaroN ko bicha diya hai
The nominative plural, from the above rule, is bistare.
This is analogous to ladka, ladke.
Remember that nominatives do not have postpositions.
Hence, it is permissible to say the following:
us ne bistar bicha diya hai
us ne bistare bicha diya hai
> 3) The word bechaara is also persian and appears to be similar to aawara
> in all respects. Again how do we account for the variations that follow:
bechaara is an exception to the rule.
There are some exceptions but as a rule only adjectives
ending in -aa and derived from hindi are declinable.
I could list some of the exceptions here but I do not
have the time.
Irfan.
> Yogesh
>
> > 1) The nominative is crude; i.e. it has no postposition.
> > Nominative singular masculines ending in a consonant remain
> > unchanged in the nominative plural.
> >
> > Ex: ghar, ghar
> > badal falls into this category.
> >
> > 2) The formative or oblique case includes nouns to
> > which postpositions are added. Possible postpositions
> > are as follows:
> >
> > ne, ka, ko, se, meiN, par, pe
> >
> > The formative case is created thus:
> >
> > if the nominative ends in any letter except aa or a
> > (as in ladkaa or panja), the formative singular is
> > identical to the nominative singular and the formative
> > plural is formed by adding -oN to the singular.
> >
> > Ex:
> >
> > us badal ka rang kaala hai
> >
> > badaloN se mujhe dar lagta hai
> >
> > 3) aawara is a persian adjective
> >
> > The adjective, unless it ends in -aa or is derived from hindi,
> > is indeclinable.
> >
> > Ex:
> >
> > safed ghora, safed ghore, safed ghodi
> >
> > aawara badal
> >
> > Eik aawara badal aasmaN par bhatak raha hai
> > maiN ne aasmaN par eik aawara badal ko dekha
> > maiN ne aasmaN par kai aawara badaloN ko dekha
> >
> > Irfan
> >
> >
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
>
*********************************
Irfan Moinuddin
University of Illinois
College of Medicine
-------------------------------------------
http://icarus.uic.edu/~imoinu1/irfsome.html
-------------------------------------------
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Irfan Moinuddin
> > maiN ne aasmaN par eik aawara badal ko dekha
>
>
>
> say instead : "Main ne aasmaan par ek aawara
> baadal dekha".
>
Afzal,
Point one:
From the context of my post, it becomes clear that I
was rhapsodizing on the distinction between formative singular
and formative plural. Hence, the sentence construction
above was designed, as you should have perceived,
to demonstrate that distinction.
Point two:
If you are trying to say that the dative postposition is
often omitted then you would be right. But that point
should be made from an intellectual standpoint, instead
of saying qualitatively that this may be better, that
may be better.
Point three:
From the words "it may perhaps be permissible", I again
detect a subjective quality to your assertion.
That the dative may be omitted is a rule of fact.
That the omission may be preferable is your opinion.
If it is not your opinion, you have done nothing to
substantiate it.
Constructively critical,
Irfan
Nita
> Hence, it is permissible to say the following:
>
> us ne bistar bicha diya hai
> us ne bistare bicha diya hai
I am afraid I have to disagree. The second usage is not correct.
Sometimes, they may be inetr-changeable, like:
bistar le aao
bistare le aao
But, the meaning is clear. In the first case, it is used in
the singular sense and the in the latter, the reference is
to plural objects.
Nita
--
http://www.urdupoetry.com
il_kh...@my-deja.com
Irfan Moinuddin <imo...@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > It may perhaps be preferable to omit "ko" and
> > say instead : "Main ne aasmaan par ek aawara
> > baadal dekha".
> >
> If you are trying to say that the dative postposition is
> often omitted then you would be right. But that point
> should be made from an intellectual standpoint, instead
> of saying qualitatively that this may be better, that
> may be better.
If it is agreed that the dative postposition is
"often" omitted, that would indicate that
generally people "prefer" to do so. I was not
trying to make any "intellectual standpoint".
I have never considered myself an intellectual.
Just an ordinary human being who is subject to
committing all types of errors and who is
always willing to own up a mistake. Further,
I believe, Urdu evolved as a reaction to or
an attempt to reduce the "intellectuality"
which characterised Persian, Arabic, Turkish
etc. spoken by the elite.
> From the words "it may perhaps be permissible", I again
> detect a subjective quality to your assertion.
I thought I had used the word "preferable" and
not "permissible". I had also qualified it
by using the word "perhaps". I was not laying
down any rule of grammar.
> That the dative may be omitted is a rule of fact.
> That the omission may be preferable is your opinion.
Yes, I was merely expressing my opinion only.
> If it is not your opinion, you have done nothing to
> substantiate it.
Since I was not trying to lay down any rule of
grammar, I feel there was nothing to be substantiated.
Afzal
> Irfan
Nita
has...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > The plural of "baadal" is, surprise, "baadalo.n" in the combining
> cases and
> > "baadalo" in the 'sambhodhan' (address) case, as exemplified by the
> following
> I'm in a bit of HURRY, so I'll comment on one aspect of it ONLY, and
> that is:
>
> badlo (with a 'vaao' ending) means "ai badal" (O'cloud/s)
>
> I may come back to this very TRIVIAL thing later!
Not so trivial. If you read Ashok's post with care you will see that he
mentions 'baadalo' being used in the address mode which is precisely
what you have written. Please don't be in such a hurry to criticize
that you end up with mud on your face.
Nita
--
http://www.urdupoetry.com
has...@my-deja.com
Nita <nawat...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8epcdr$13s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> has...@my-deja.com wrote:
Please don't be in such a hurry to criticize
> that you end up with mud on your face.
>
> Nita
------------------------------------------------------------------------
nita
yeh toe aapkii hii gHalaaZat hai jo mujh jaisay paak-o-Saaf hastii per
aap log uchhaal rahay haiN, magar:
aap ko baRii Hasrat hai toe merii taraf say puurii ijaazat hai jii bhar
kar chaat layN! shayad aapkii "chatorii~'tabii'at" ho! maiN kisii~'taur
aapkii qurbat gawaarah kar luuNgaa, bhalay hii ba'ad mayN chaahay
mujhay "gHusl" lenaa paR jaaye!
aur agar marii madad kii Zaruurat ho toe takalluf bar~'taraf muttal'aa
farmaayiiyegaa!
faqat la~jawaab,
Hashmat
Nita
Isn't it surprising that everytime someone points out the mistakes you
make you retaliate by hurling insults and trying to divert attention by
using gutter language?
I see no mention of whether you were mistaken or not. Why is that?
You call me filthy and obscene in your post, without provocation. You
call yourself pure when with every action you prove otherwise. How can
someone who has so much hate in him be pure and clean?
I have no intention of having anything to do with you. As on ALUP, from
now on, I am going to ignore you and I am sure everyone else will do
the same.
Nita
--
http://www.urdupoetry.com
Irfan Moinuddin
>
> > Hence, it is permissible to say the following:
> >
> > us ne bistar bicha diya hai
> > us ne bistare bicha diya hai
This was a test. Most people have some
sensation or feeling about what is right or wrong
but they are unable to put a handle on it.
Also, many times, what is right seems wrong and
what is wrong seems right! This is particularly
the case with the second sentence above. Nita has
voiced her confusion. So should all of you have.
The sentence was deliberately constructed to be confusing.
But don't worry, a few rules will go a long way!
First, the imperfective participle describes actions or
states that are incomplete or continuing:
girti hui divaroN ko dhakka do
Second, the perfective participle describes actions that
are complete:
giri hui divareN
We shall deal with perfective tenses.
In perfective tenses, the agreement depends on whether
the verb is intransitive or transitive.
Intransitive verbs do not take objects; they focus
on the result of what is done. Ex:
aaina tut gaya
Transitive verbs do take objects and they focus on
what the doer does. Ex:
Irfan ne aaine ko tod diya
In perfective tenses, intransitive verbs agree with
the subject:
anjum imtihan meiN kamyab ho gai
Transitive verbs agree with nominative direct objects:
us ne bistara bicha diya
us ne bistare bicha diye
Finally, a rule that I have frequently used is:
if the object is followed by a postposition, the verb
is masculine singular:
us ne bistaroN ko bicha diya
us ne bistare ko bicha diya
Irfan
Nita
> Also, many times, what is right seems wrong and
> what is wrong seems right! This is particularly
> the case with the second sentence above. Nita has
> voiced her confusion. So should all of you have.
> The sentence was deliberately constructed to be confusing.
Thanks for the explanation, Irfan. However, speaking from a personal
point of view, I will never use that construct - correct or not. It is
extremely inelegant and sounds wrong. You are right that in majority of
the cases, people do tend to go with what sounds right. The interesting
part is that in a large number of cases, they are correct.
yogesh...@my-deja.com
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>,
Irfan Moinuddin <imo...@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:
>
> I could list some of the exceptions here but I do not
> have the time.
>
> Irfan.
>
That is quite understandable. More often than not, many of us have to
deal with the time pressure! If you do find the time, it would be nice
to know some of the other exceptions. But, I did want to take the time
out to express my appreciation of your valuable contribution to this
thread.
BTW, Ashok, don't listen to Irfan and do try to stick your neck out at
the next opportunity! Just imagine how much good learning would have
been missed if I followed that advice and did not indulge in taking a
'crack' at the riddle. :-))
All in all it was a rewarding experience! Thanks to all.
Yogesh
hars...@yahoo.com
or rm form?
wording of the song are:
chandni raatein, sab jag soye, hum jaage,
taaron se kare baatein, chandni raatein.
TIA
Harshal
Amit Malhotra
hars...@my-deja.com
"Amit Malhotra" <am...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes.
> <hars...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8h3lfb$j1m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Does anybody have chaandni raantein from album of distant voices in
> > mp3 or rm form?
Then would you mind posting its URL here?
if yes: would you mind mailing me its URL?
if still yes: then newsgroup would have been saved of
2 senseless followups, had you not posted.
if no: please email it to me, Thank you.
If you dont mind, please post the URL, Thank you.
Harshal
vulca...@mailandnews.com
column: GEET GANGA,
title: CHHAI KARI BADARIA BAIRANIA HO RAM,
writer: AJAATSHATRU (in HINDI)
published in Nai Duniya, Indore, MP, India, dated 29/07/00, page 10
translated and posted to RMIM by vulca...@MailAndNews.com on 31/07/00
(no permission taken)
-------------
there had been two types of rain-sings in hindi films. first type has
fast-paced, like, "ja re badra bairi ja", "kare kare badra", "rimjhim
barse saawani ankhiyan", "boondania barsan laagi ri", "kare badra tu na
ja, na ja", etc.
second type of rain-songs are quite slow-paced as if dark clouds are
moving in the sky slowly-slowly. in this style are songs like "badra
ghir ghir aaye", "ghar aaja ghir aaye badra saanwaria", "ghir ghir ke
aayi badaria", "chha gaye baadal neel gagan par", "megha chhaye aadhi
raat".
one rain-song, in vilambit, that has been composed by acharya composer S
D Berman. there is no other song at similar standing. really, this song,
the way it has been sung by lata, and the way berman da had made her
sing, cathces the rainy season of india, its sorrows, traditional pains
of someone separated and lonesome, and heavy crawling of seasonal
clouds. very finely and with sensitivity. lata has given the deep voice
of pain, they proceed as if penetrating in land of our heart like a
plough.
this type of base we could get in lata-songs like "mohe bhool gaye
sanwaria", "rooth ke tum to chal diye", "meri barbadiyo par muskurane aa
gaya koi", and "intezaar aur abhi". in other words, the soul of this
song is that lata sings it with sheer steadiness, depth and pain.
take it, read the lyrics of the song:
-----------------
chhai kari badariya, bairania ho ram
ghan badara gaganwa jhukan laage ho
more sajna videshiya to na aaye ho
chhai kaaaaari!
jhoolan ki, gaawan ki rut aayi re -2
ratiya jagaawan ki rut aayi re -2
kachhu kho ke paawan ki rut aayi re -2
more sajna videshiya to na aaye ho
chhai kaaaaari!
jaawe koi unko laawe sakhi -2
intne mein kachhu nahi bhaawe sakhi -2
haaye purwa pawan ji jalaawe sakhi -2
more sajna videshiya to na aaye ho
chhai kaaaaari!
chhai kari badariya, bairania ho ram
ghan badara gaganwa jhukan laage ho
more sajna videshiya to na aaye ho
chhai kaaaaari!
-----------------
no need to mention that the tune has been taken from classical raga, and
the song has traces of bhojpuri. berman da got it sung with the the
seriousness of master composers, and lata sings it with amazing
steadiness, as if the singer has got left behind, don't know when, and
the song is as if crowling slowly-slowly in the staganted universe. this
stage of singing is to become silent, and lata is singing it with
silence. only berman da could have introduced such deep notes.
it had been written by saahir, film was "jeevan-jyoti", which was the
debut film of departed chand usmani. she was in it with shammi kapoor.
on her face and looks and mood, this emotion drenched song had appeared
even more beutiful. the special merit of the song is also that because
of having been mended in raga, it makes us recall several pasts and
returns us to middle ages.
bada mushqil tha chand ko jaam mein gadgadaakar pee jaana
ae meri betabi-e-dil! maine veh bhi soch daala.
-------------------
vijay...@my-deja.com
vulca...@MailAndNews.com wrote:
> [RMIM] DHADKAN 29/07/00 CHHAI KARI BADARIA
>
> column: GEET GANGA,
> title: CHHAI KARI BADARIA BAIRANIA HO RAM,
> writer: AJAATSHATRU (in HINDI)
> published in Nai Duniya, Indore, MP, India, dated 29/07/00, page 10
ISB. You might be aware that Nai Duniya has a web version too -
www.naidunia.com which has the dhadakan page, too.
>
> translated and posted to RMIM by vulca...@MailAndNews.com on
> 31/07/00 (no permission taken)
> -------------
> there had been two types of rain-sings in hindi films. first type has
> fast-paced, like, "ja re badra bairi ja", "kare kare badra", "rimjhim
> barse saawani ankhiyan", "boondania barsan laagi ri", "kare badra tu
> na ja, na ja", etc.
>
> second type of rain-songs are quite slow-paced as if dark clouds are
> moving in the sky slowly-slowly. in this style are songs like "badra
> ghir ghir aaye", "ghar aaja ghir aaye badra saanwaria", "ghir ghir ke
> aayi badaria", "chha gaye baadal neel gagan par", "megha chhaye aadhi
> raat".
>
Too narrow a classification of "rain" songs. This is one heavily
exploited segment in Hindi Film music. Scores of other great songs which
probably merit mention but cannot be included in an article of this kind
My favourite -
ghir ghir aaye badaravaa kaare - Talat, Suman in Dak Babu (Pt. Dhaniram)
a beautiful slow song...no, this is not the slowness of sorrowful, dark
clouds. this is the relaxed langour of an afternoon of enforced idleness
just like chhaa gaye baadal (Chitralekha) in the list above.
Wonderful composition, wonderful rendition.
Surprised that Ajatashatru should classify "ghar aaja ghir aaye badra
saanwaria" as a slow song. This is quite a peppy song. Without knowing
the situation in the film, one imagines Lata sings for a heroine who
knows her beloved is coming back to her, it is just a question of time.
This is not the pathos of doomed love, this is just the passing pangs
of loneliness. RDB's first film and one of his greatest songs. Not
always sure that the track his career took after this was the best for
music lovers.
One other great barsaat song is a non-film song, the first recording of
a great singer - Saigal's jhulanaa jhulaao ri. Fond mention of "jhir
jhir jhir jhir badaravaa barase, o kaare kaare", "rim jhim ke taraane le
ke aayi barsaat", "garajat barasat saavan aayo re", "ab ke sajan saavan
me.n", "Dar laage garaje badaravaa", "saavan ke mahiine me.n", "saavan
aayaa baadal liye, mere piyaa naahi aaye", "aaha rimjhim ke ye pyaare
pyaare giit liye", "o uma.D ghuma.D kar aayi re ghaTaa", "hariyaalaa
saavan Dhol bajaataa aayaa", "nis din barasat nain hamaare", "saavan ke
baadalo.n un se ye jaa kaho", "aayi saavan rut"...the list is too long
and this selection is indicative of the many moods of the monsoons that
have been captured in Hindi film (and non-film) music.
yaade.n tazaa kar gaye...
Vijay
Vijay
Srinivas Ganti
vijay...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <398501E6...@MailAndNews.com>,
> vulca...@MailAndNews.com wrote:
> > [RMIM] DHADKAN 29/07/00 CHHAI KARI BADARIA
> >
> > column: GEET GANGA,
> > title: CHHAI KARI BADARIA BAIRANIA HO RAM,
> > writer: AJAATSHATRU (in HINDI)
> > published in Nai Duniya, Indore, MP, India, dated 29/07/00, page 10
> Thanks for this, vulcan. I am including this for the next release of
the
> ISB.
http://members.xoom.com/isb_archives/ before posting so that efforts
aren't duplicated.
--
Srinivas
Ashok
>
>In article <398501E6...@MailAndNews.com>,
> vulca...@MailAndNews.com wrote:
>> [RMIM] DHADKAN 29/07/00 CHHAI KARI BADARIA
>>
>> column: GEET GANGA,
>> title: CHHAI KARI BADARIA BAIRANIA HO RAM,
>> writer: AJAATSHATRU (in HINDI)
>> published in Nai Duniya, Indore, MP, India, dated 29/07/00, page 10
>Thanks for this, vulcan.
I second it. Great job, vulcan. Once again: live long
and prosper. And keep it up.
I am including this for the next release of the
>ISB.
One suggestion here for ISB. Why not expand the Comment
field in ISB to include what people have to say about
the song (in this case vulcan's translation of Ajatashatru)?
'Jivan Jyoti' of SDB has been discussed here before. Let me
just note that a version recording of the song by Asha is
available.
>> ------------->> there had been two types of rain-sings in hindi films. first type
has
>> fast-paced, like, "ja re badra bairi ja", "kare kare badra", "rimjhim
>> barse saawani ankhiyan", "boondania barsan laagi ri", "kare badra tu
>> na ja, na ja", etc.
>>
>> second type of rain-songs are quite slow-paced as if dark clouds are
>> moving in the sky slowly-slowly. in this style are songs like "badra
>> ghir ghir aaye", "ghar aaja ghir aaye badra saanwaria", "ghir ghir ke
>> aayi badaria", "chha gaye baadal neel gagan par", "megha chhaye aadhi
>> raat".
>>
>Too narrow a classification of "rain" songs.
Why narrow? It is an interesting distinction.
This is one heavily
>exploited segment in Hindi Film music. Scores of other great songs which
>probably merit mention but cannot be included in an article of this kind
>My favourite -
>ghir ghir aaye badaravaa kaare - Talat, Suman in Dak Babu (Pt. Dhaniram)
>a beautiful slow song...no, this is not the slowness of sorrowful, dark
>clouds. this is the relaxed langour of an afternoon of enforced idleness
>just like chhaa gaye baadal (Chitralekha) in the list above.
>Wonderful composition, wonderful rendition.
This one is a tandem song. One version is a solo by Talat and the
other one is by Talat and Mubarak Begum (not Suman).
>
>Surprised that Ajatashatru should classify "ghar aaja ghir aaye badra
>saanwaria" as a slow song. This is quite a peppy song. Without knowing
>the situation in the film, one imagines Lata sings for a heroine who
>knows her beloved is coming back to her, it is just a question of time.
>This is not the pathos of doomed love, this is just the passing pangs
>of loneliness.
Talk of narrow distinctions! It's quite clearly a sad song; not a
peppy one. The "Tip Tip sunat" part is brilliantly conceived.
RDB's first film and one of his greatest songs. Not
>always sure that the track his career took after this was the best for
>music lovers.
>
>Vijay
His entire career straddles the melodic and the cacophonic.
The seeds of both aspects of his future work are there in the
'Chhote Nawab' soundtrack.
Ashok
