RJGK-36 Results

[Abhay Avachat]

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

RMIM-Jhim GeetoN Ki
GHazals in Hindi Movies
RJGK - 36

Solutions, Comments and Results

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Namashkaar RMIM !

I am extremely sorry for this delay in posting the results, solutions
etc of the RJGK-36. As is the case with such delays, I will blame it
on the evil work pressure. :-) Now let's get to the point.

I tried to come up with ways to break up this post, which has become
very very very loooong. I couldn't. The original clues, the solutions,
comments by participants and the talk about ghazals is so interlinked
with each other, that it was impossible to logically seperate these
and avoid duplicacy or imcopmleteness. In short there was no way I could
"normalize" the entire post. So here it is. A monolithic post. I hope
it's as interesting and enjoyable as the quiz.

Participation :
================
Compiling quiz and esp. the results is quite time consuming. It is the
participants which boost the morale of the quiz-master and without their
encouragement the whole thing is not worth the effort. Let me express
my sincere thanks to all the participants. Big thank you !!

Here is the list of the participants. I hope I haven't missed anyone.
There were in all 44 entries and 60 participants.

Preeti Ranjan Panda ppa...@isis.ICS.UCI.EDU
Satish Subramanian subr...@cs.umn.edu
Ashok Dhareshwar adhar...@worldbank.org
Ambrish Sundaram asun...@ford.com
Punit Oza pu...@hotmail.com
Snehal B. Oza snehal%mahasweta@wipro@wipsys.soft.net
Harmesh Kaur and Dr. Surjit Singh du...@ttacs1.ttu.edu
Surajit A. Bose bos...@nd.edu
UVRavindra and Pavan Kumar Desikan p...@cs.duke.edu
Vaishali khus...@mchip00.med.nyu.edu
MOHAMMED, S SAMIUDDIN G025088+aVRNA%Johns...@mcimail.com
Hema Khemani hnk...@pitt.edu
Vedashree BSUD...@worldnet.att.ne
Pradeep Dubey pra...@watson.ibm.com
Prashant Patel ppa...@rus.usda.gov
Manjeet Rekhi Manjee...@es.xerox.com
Rajashree Kantha kant...@UMDNJ.EDU
Syeda Fatima and Sangeeta Thakur s...@cypress.com
Suvarna+Bhat-Hirve MURL...@aol.com
K.K.Ramakrishnan ra...@tagore.wipinfo.soft.net
Ajay Divekar div...@smtp0.astr.com
Ikram Ahmed Khan and Kalyan Kolachala kal...@sybase.com
Mayur Misra and Ravikrishna Raghunathan rra...@unix1.sncc.lsu.edu
Sunil Kosalge and Harish Suvarna su...@xavierite.mti.sgi.com
Amrita Joshi ajo...@umich.edu
Guri bu...@ix.netcom.com
Nishi Bhatnagar NBhat...@worldbank.org
Arish, Chiru and Anupam an...@cs.berkeley.edu
Pintu and Shalini pi...@shift-f1.com
Sridhar, Manisha & Shalili nata...@ctc.com
David Windsor daw...@anu.edu.au
Sridhar Ramesh sra...@eos.ncsu.edu
Veena Nayak & Ajay Nerurkar a...@cs.Buffalo.EDU
Anup Pandey apa...@eur.ericsson.com
Madhu Sudan and Anirudha ma...@csl.sri.com
Ketan Dholkia ke...@iag.net
Vandana Venkatesan & Buvna Ayyagari vven...@pcocd2.intel.com
Swatee Naik na...@math.unr.edu
Preetham Gopalaswamy pree...@connectinc.com
Balaji and Malini fj...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Vinayak Deshpande desh...@wharton.upenn.edu
Neeraj and Prince pri...@viman.engr.sgi.com
Sonu Agarwal so...@myself.com
Archana Kapur archan...@aspect.com

A big big "thank you" again to all of you.
I must thank the beta-testers too. If you find the quiz interesting then
the credit goes to them also for providing me helpful hints.

General Comments :
==================
I have enclosed my comments in [] ONLY where it was necessary.

The quiz was intersting to most. The "Myth Explosion Agenda" was quite
successful. That makes me happy. It was also an easy quiz. That makes me
very happy. :-) The quiz was 'thought provoking' to most. That makes me
extremely happy. :-) :-) :-) Ok, ok, ok. Before indulging into this
customary self-praise, first some criticism.

Snehal > My complain is about not icnluding some great Ghazals of films.
This, not necessarily be a pointer, only to some particular MDs, is
missed the most. Didn't you think to have two seections carrying 20+25
or 20+10 or whatever combination that suits you, and have dedicated
one section for those Ghazals ?

That could have been done. It's a nice idea. But I wanted to bring out
all the facets of GHazals in films. I wanted to attack some of the most
common misconceptions about GHazal. That's what I tried.

Surjit > The "myth destruction agenda" was interesting, as it led to
quite a variety of songs being included. The question that arises
then, is that if all these songs can be called ghazals by virtue of
their rhyme-scheme alone, what's gained by that identification? I
mean, OK, so "tadbeer se bigdi hui" is a ghazal. So what? How does it
help my appreciation of the song? Or enhance my understanding of the
genre? I wasn't always sure.

Valid questions. "What's gained by the identification" is preciseely the
"Myth Explosion" ! Allow me to flatter myself. After this quiz I am sure
people will not think GHazal as some kind of typical song, but as a
form of complete and mature poetry.

Surjit > Jaidev is definitely underrepresented in your quiz.

True. There were a couple of his songs in the first draft. I really
cannot explain why I removed certain songs, except to make it a short
quiz. There are __so many__ other songs which also have a surprise
value ! I have some plans for the future. Let's see.

Hema > There is a genuine complaint though. There are so many other
beautiful ghazals. Why did you not include them instead of repeating
the same songs that have featured n times in the RJGKs and
Chitrahaars?

I have the same answer. My primary motive was to attack misconceptions.

Vandana and Bhuvna > You were right in observing that one wouldn't have
recognized quite a few of these songs as ghazals. We do have one
complaint, though, about the dearth of Mukesh solos & Asha solos in
your quiz on ghazals, especially at the expense of too many
(unimpressive, one might add) Rafi solos.

This is answered by the following ... :-)

Kalyan+Ikram > Well framed clues and good balance of MD's. Probably too
many Sahir songs (7) and Rafi songs (6) but that is to be expected
from the host :)

All the criticism is valid. But I honestly did not make any attempt to
favour any artiste. Or to ignore anyone specifically. Except MM and
Khayyam. But let me stress my motive once again. I wanted to add to your
knowledge. Something new. THAT was the prime motive. Everything else
is/was secondary.

Ashok > A cracklingly good rightup. I worked on it over some beer last
night and spicy writing made up for the missing chivDaa! You seem to
be inviting disagrements, arguments, and countermoves galore. You
won't be disappointed!

Guri > Perfectly enjoyable quiz. probably the best in the series so far!

BalajiMalini > I think Sami deserves all kudos for starting the quiz, as
do you for giving it a direction. Of course, the early RMIMers should
be congratulated for nurturing it and bringing it to its current
shape. Above sentiments hold true for the Chitrahaar series too.

Anand > People may differ on the opinion of which was the best RJGK
ever, but for me your RJGK is the clear winner hands down. Perhaps a
few RMIMers should learn how to write RJGK after reading your effort.

Ambrish > Congratulations on a very well compiled quiz. If I may say so,
I think that this quiz completely meets the guidelines for conducting
quizzes on RMIM (Congratulations again for "postulating" these
guidelines). Excellent selection of songs.

Snehal > Efforts both in terms of thinking behind the quiz, selection of
songs and related research carried out is truly a job showing high
class work and is highly noticeable here. I can't resist giving you a
Big Congrats on this! This effort of your will go a long way in
bringing a considerable degree of awareness and openness towards
Ghazals and it's format, if not universally, at least to RMIM
community, which itself is no less an achievement. Once something good
starts rolling, it will pick up momentum own it's own and will spread
all over. Not to forget, the fact that this quiz can be a lighthouse,
for Ghazal-bandish and related issues too.

Preeti > All of us solve these quizzes for the sake of fun, but a quiz
is especially interesting to me if it is an educative experience. Your
quiz is outstanding from that respect, with all the diversions and
intricacies that add to the thrill of solving (or not solving) a clue.

Vinayak > Thanx for your "Myth Explosion" agenda which helped clear
quite a few illusions about Ghazals. We were forced to think "Is this
a Ghazal?" for a number of songs.

Ketan > Man, that's a brilliant quiz. Atleast looks easy and the songs
ARE a definite suprise. I would never have thought one of the 2 KK
songs to be a Ghazal. Great job.

Ramkrishnan > Thanks for the quiz. I never thought I could get so many
answers in a Ghazal RJGK :-) Radeef was the saviour in many cases.

Prince > Enjoyed it quite a bit, esp. the radeef and qaafiya parts.
Never thought I would actually be able to parse them :-)

Harish > The quiz has shattered lots of myths about ghazals. I wondered
how in the hell can 'Haaye re o din kyona aaaye', Koi hum dum na rahaa
(since it is by KK :-) ) are ghazals. By merely applying the syntax
fundaas Ghazal is there in many languages perhaps.It is a great job By
Abhay on making Ghazal a pretty earthly thing to many rmimers like me.

Satish > [commenting on the many visual clues] Or how about announcing
that the current RJGK is also a Chitrahaar! :)

How about some English shers. All plagiarized from the RAFIans'
punchline! :)

Love for ghazals didn't make me try this quiz.
I loved all the clues so I tried this quiz.

I didn't try the quiz because I understood ghazals.
I understand ghazals now because I tried this quiz.

Where would you go without attempting this quiz, Satish?
By making you a beta-tester He made sure you tried this quiz!

BTW guys, this is the FIRST English GHazal that I have come across.
Satish has made history, and I am happy to be a part of it :-) :-).

Solutions and comments :
=========================

01. -- 40/44 : I had high hopes about this being the a 100% solution.

humko unse wafaa ki hai ummeed,
jo nahiN jaanate wafaa kya hai

The lyricist (!) did not intend to write a duet, but that's what the
MD Ghulam Mohammed has done by making both Talat and Suraiyaa sing. I
like this tune, but IMO other tunes in this movie, hardly do any justice
to the words of the poet, on whose life, the movie is loosely based. I
know this is a give away, but then, any GHalib sher would have been so.
--------

I am sure there are no doubts about this being a GHazal :-).
Many objected to this being the only justice doing tune.

Surjit > Suraiya's voice has never sounded better than it does here;
fresh, sweet, pure.
Puneet > The negative point was that Bharat Bhushan was playing the role
of Ghalib. How he became such a hit beats me completely.
Anup > What a start and point to be noted that you started with two?
Ghazal kings :)

BalajiMalini > A rather obvious first choice. Indeed, it would have very
surprising to see some other clue here. Expect to get 100% response
for this clue :)

Song : dil-e-naadaaN tujhe hua kya hai
aakhir is dard ki dawaa kya hai
Singers : Talat, Suraiyya
Film : Mirza Ghalib
*ring : Bharat Bhushan, Suraiyya
Music : Ghulam Mohammad
Lyrics : Ghalib
------------------------------------------------------------------------

02. -- 39/44

yahaaN aaNkhoN aaNkhoN me, baate huii hai,
kisi_ne na dekha, kisi_ne na jaanaa

Probably the first surprise ! A happy song, still a GHazal. This is prob
the most famous NoorjehaaN solo. MD Naushad. Note - no Radeef. From now,
I will be asking a question quite often. Is this tune bad for a GHazal ?
--------

Some different opinions ...

Pradeep > I agree, it's 'not a bad tune', but quite an ordinary one, and
not a 'great tune' by any means either :-)
Ashok > [about fame] Far from it. Even quality-wise, it's quite second
rate. [about tune] The tune is mediocre for a SONG period.
Pavan > Why should it matter if it is a ghazal or a nazm? The question
should be is this tune good? and my answer is yes it is.
Puneet > Well what can I say - Naushad and Noorjehan at their best !!!
Hema > I think this tune is not good for a ghazal. But this is a nice
song. Who wants to sacrifice the tune because of the fact that this is
a ghazal?
Vinayak > Not a bad tune for the context of the song.

Song : jawaaN hai muhabbat, hasiN haiN zamaana
lutaayaa hai dil_ne khushi ka KHazaaana
Singers : Noor Jehan
Film : Anmol GhaDi
*ring : Surendra, Noor Jehan
Music : Naushad
Lyrics : Majrooh ?? or Madhok ??
------------------------------------------------------------------------

03. -- 40/44 : Is this stanza not there in all versions ? I doubt.

tute hue patvaar haiN, kashti ke hum to kya ~~
haari huii baahoN ki hi patvaar banaa le

If the previous one didn't surprise you, this will. Mastibhari GHazal !
By SDB-Sahir. Is this a bad tune for the scene and the words ? NO, IMO.
Anyway. There is one Dev and two Geeta's in this song :-)
--------

David Windsor wrote an interesting trivia about this in his post.
SDB was nervous about this western tune being accepted for a GHazal. As
it turned out, the tune was very well received. This fact adds a lot of
substance to my "Myth Explosion Agenda".

Balaji > You mean two Dev's :) and two Geeta's, right :)

Song : taqdeer se bigdi hui tadbeer banaa le
apane pe bharosa hai, to ik daaNv lagaa le
Singers : Geeta Dutt
Film : Baazi
*ring : Dev Anand, Geeta Bali
Music : S. D. Burman
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

04. -- 43/44 : It _WAS_ easy.

taaj ya, taKHt ya, daulat ho zamaane bhar ki
kaun si cheez muhabbat se badi hoti hai

Is that the way to tune a GHazal ? How many GHazals have been sung by
HemantK ? Is the tune by C.Ramchandra or HemantK ? I was quite relieved
to see that this 'background song' did not feature in the last RJGK :-)
What do you think about the "Myth Explosion Agenda" ? :-)
--------

Ashok > Harish Bhimani's book says that HK might have composed two songs
for the film. He specifically mentions this song as a Hemant
composition and doesn't mention any other as possible HK compositions.
Hema > I think some "stray capacitance" of Rabindra sangeet can always
be seen in Hemant's songs. What do the fellow netters think?
Surjit > Can we declare a moratorium on this song's appearance in
Chitrahaar or RJGK quizzes, please? It's pleasant, but not that
great- -the sing-song melody sounds like a nursery rhyme and the
lyrics are cliched.
BalajiMalini > How about a category, songs which fall into multiple
categories :)

David > If we wanted to get technical, this could be said to not fully
conform to the requirements of a ghazal, as the rhyming is unsuccesful
...baRi hoti hai
...baRi hoti hai
...ghaRi hoti hai
as repitition of a word doesn't count as rhyme

Song : zindagi pyaar ki do chaar ghadi hoti hai
chaahe thodi si ho ye, umr badi hoti hai
Singer : Hemant Kumar
Film : Anarkali
*ring : Pradeep Kumar, Beena Rai
Music : C. R. Ramachandra
Lyrics : Rajendra Krishan
------------------------------------------------------------------------

05. -- 42/44

ro ro ke inhi raahoN me, khona pada ik apane ko
haNs haNs ke inhi raahoN me, apanaaya tha begaane ko

One of the "tandem song" GHazals in this quiz. This is a Sahir-SDB gem.
Has it been taken in Chitrahaar ? Actually both the versions make a good
candidate for Chitrahaar. Devsaab and Nalini Jaywant going in a car in
both versions ! This sad version is by Lata and the happy one is by KK.

Technical diversion : Is the KK version a GHazal ? The question itself
is an answer to another question asked somewhere else :-) :-) Find :-)
--------

This is a GHazal. So is the KK version. The KK version is the answer to
the question asked in the diversion in the 6th clue. This is a GHazal
with very interesting intra-sher rhyming. Included indirectly here :-)

BalajiMalini > Was the choice of Lata version over KK's based on any
hidden agenda :)

David > Is the KK version a ghazal? Well, if the Lata one is, then his
is too. Though I had trouble with their metre ('=' represents a long
syllable; '-' a short; '/' end of a foot; '//' a caesura):
= = - = / = = = = // = = - = / = = = =
= = - = / = = = = // = = - = / = = = =
which, (if it is a correct scansion - I had to do some doubling of
consonants to make it some feet fit) is not as far as I know an
accepted Urdu metre. Counting by matras it would be 15 + 15. An Urdu
rhyming pattern combined with a Hindi metre? Is it thus using the
great example of such a cross-over, Mir's Hindi metre - if so, then we
wouldn't have to worry so much about rhythmic regularity.
While both Lata's and KK's versions share the same metre, and both, as
far as their rhyming goes, obey the rules of the ghazal, KK's version
also has rhymes on the ends of the half-lines and the end of the first
line (which to my mind, doesn't necessarily disqualify it as a ghazal
- though I have no precedents to back up my prejudice).

Song : jeevan ke safar me raahi milte haiN bichhad jaane ko
aur de jaate haiN yaadeN, tanhaai me tadapaane ko
Singers : Lata Mangeshkar (and a KK version)
Film : Munimji
*ring : Dev Anand, Nalini Jaywant, Pran
Music : S. D. Burman
Lyrics : Sahir

------------------------------------------------------------------------

06. 30/44 : Why ? It's there in ISB !! You can search with Pstats !!!

rangeen fizaaN chhaaye to zaraa, vaade pe koi aaye to zaraa
ai josh-e-wafaa, dil cheez hai kya, hum jaan bhi de de nazaraanaa

Difficult clue. It's Talat singing a typical typical C.Ramchandra tune
for the lyrics of Jaan Nissar Akhtar. This tune is way far away from the
traditional tunes. Esp. as CR adds "haaye" before repeating the Qaafiya.
(Note - no radeef.) BUT, is there anything wrong ? NO, IMO. The movie
name smells of a flower from which the Chinesse tea comes. :-)

Technical Diversion : Recently, on RMIM, the discussion about breaking
a GHazal into another form took place. I mentioned "manzile apani jagah"
and kept quiet about other such songs. But frankly, I was scared. As
there are a few such songs in THIS quiz ! I was almost sure that one by
one, all the songs would be mentioned. Thankfully, it did not happen :-)
These songs, have an intra-sher rhyming, and can be broken to fit other
forms. Can you find more such songs in this quiz ? If you can find the
song which is indirectly included, then you are great ! But during your
search beware a misleading clue given here ! :-) :-) :-)
--------

A GHazal with nice intra-sher rhyming.

Song : bechain nazar, betaab jigar, dil hai ye kisika dewaanaa
kab shaam ho aur vo shamma jale, kab udkar pahuNche parwaana
Singer : Talat Mehmood
Film : Yasmeen
*ring : Vyjayantimala, Suresh
Music : C. Ramachandra
Lyrics : Jan Nissar Akhtar
------------------------------------------------------------------------

07. -- 33/44 : The subclues didn't help ??

kahiN toot jaaye na, hasrat bhara dil
na yuN teer pheNko, nishaanaa badal ke

One of the many many great songs by Naushad-Rafi-Shakeel-DilipK. Do you
remember the picturisation of this ? Nimmi is really trying to shoot
the arrow, in this sher ! Who said GHazal cannot be related to the
scene ? Shakeel was indeed a great poet. BTW, there is no Madhubala or
Nargis in this movie, but Nimmi still has a hard time keeping Dilip, the
Pardesi, all to herself :-).
--------

Song : muhabbat ki raahoN me chalna sambhal ke
yahaaN jo bhi aayaa gayaa haath mal ke
Singer : Mohammad Rafi
Film : UDan KhaTola
*ring : Dilip Kumar, Nimmi
Music : Naushad
Lyrics : Shakeel
------------------------------------------------------------------------

08. -- 43/44 : Why ? Who missed it ? :-)

dard bhi hame qubool, chain bhi hame qubool,
ham_ne har tarah ke phool, haar me piro liye

Is THAT a GHazal ? Oh yes. Aren't SDB's GHazals a perpendicular to the
traditional tunes ? But, tell me frankly, are they bad ? GHazals don't
mean tragedy king, they are for chocolate heroes too :-) And they're not
always sung by GHazal Kings, sometimes they are sung even by Kishore :-)
--------

This particular sher has some intra-sher rhyming. But not all the shers
of this GHazal. That's what I meant by "misleading clue" in 6th.

One team/participant actually missed it ! And he or she or they lost the
Gold-Medal for it and had to settle down on Silver. Given answer was --
yuun hasrato.n ke daag mohabbat mein dho liye
:-) :-) The qaafiyaa/radeef matches !! And I thought people may not use
Radeef-Qaafiyaa at all ! :-) :-) :-) A "sleep" of keyboard, I am sure.
A very enjoyable mistake. No offense intended.

BalajiMalini > And this is for all those KKKlaners. Manna De would have
been as good in this song, and remember this is not a classical song,
so there.

Satish > This song one has one more sher sung by Kishore-Asha:
jhelte dhoop chaawn ham, phirte gaawn gaawn ham
sar pe rakke paawn ham, Nau Do Gyaarah ho gaye
That is how Majrooh ends the movie!

Song : hum haiN raahi pyaar ke, hum_se kuchh na boliye
Singer : Kishore Kumar
Film : Nau Do Gyaarah
*ring : Dev Anand, Kalpana Kartik
Music : S. D. Burman
Lyrics : Majrooh
------------------------------------------------------------------------

09. 44/44 : Of course !

chhup na sakega ishq hamaara, charoN taraf hai unka nazaara
parda nahiN jab koi khuda_se, bandoN se parda karana kya

Lovely sher and lovely picturization. I mean the idea of showing the
reflections through many mirrors. Suits the words perfectly ! Otherwise,
neither Madhubala's dancing nor DilipK's stoneface (at least here) is
watchable. The Naushad-Shakeel combo has always been awesome.

Diversion :
No other diversion is needed as much as this ! This song, I admit, was
the inspiration to take the quiz along these lines. Long time back, I
read Naushad calling this a GHazal. GHazal ? I wondered. Is this really
a GHazal or is Naushad wrong ? I started thinking. I won't tell you my
conclusion till the results, so you can also give this a good thought.
But, after my thinking, I started examining structure of every film song
I heard. And the result is in front of you :-)
--------

This song starts with a sher "insaan kisi se ...". We are ignoring such
prelude/opening lines in this quiz. This applies to many songs in this
quiz. So that we are concerned about the main song only.

It was obvious to most that, the repetition of "pyaar kiya to darna kya"
after the word "jab" is necessary to consider this as a GHazal. Very
unique song. My position is also unique. No one else likes this "trick"
by Shakeel. They feel that Shakeel couldn't think of any better way. But
I still disagree. I contend that, here the repetition achieves emphasis.
Here are some opinions ...

Pradeep > I understand how technically it meets the ghazal requirements.
However, Mr Shakeel should have done better than repeating the phrase
to lengthen the first line. The producer should have paid him the same
rupee note twice in return :-)
Ashok > To make it a sher, you have to double the first line with "jab."
Then you get a matlaa. And you have a ghazal with first line of the
shers having internal rhyme. Okay, bats are also mammals.
Preeti >The repetition of the "pyaar kiya to darna kya" phrase in the
first line of the song makes it an illegal (or weak) ghazal, I think.
Naushad may have amply demonstrated his usual overall cluelessness by
calling it one :-)

Some different opinions ...

Ashok > [lovely sher]just about the only good thing in this hideous song
Pavan > Maybe the magic combination of Naushad's music and Lata's voice
in this movie was too good to be captured by anyone on the screen.

David > Mughal-e-Azam (1960), sung of course by the immortal (and BTW
making an appearance in Salman Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses')

Song : pyaar kiya to Darna kya, jab pyaar kiya to Darana kya
Singer : Lata
Film : Mughal-E-Aazam
*ring : Dilip Kumar, Madhubala, Prithviraj Kapoor, Durga KhoTe
Music : Naushad
Lyrics : Shakeel
------------------------------------------------------------------------

10. 27/44 : Second lowest.

suni meri beena, sangeet bina
sapanoN ki maalaa, murajhaaye

A HINDI GHazal ! This is a difficult clue. So let me add some info about
this Lata song. It's from a great Hrishikesh Mukherjee film and music is
by a great master of Hindustani Classical music - Pt. RaviShankar. The
movie *ed Balraj Sahni and Leela Naidu (?). So find out the movie and
listen to the song. "What a song !", you will exclaim, but would you
have thought this to be GHazal ? Isn't the word-play on "beena" nice in
this sher ? Note : no Radeef.
--------

Many could guess the movie name. But still the song eluded them.
Boy, we do need to make frequent trips to the wonderful world of RAM :-)

Ashok > No. I am not sure the first line of the mukhaDa and that of the
antara have the same meter. The song is in couplets and meets qafiya.
I don't know if that is enough.

I am not very strict about meter. So to me this is a GHazal.

Some interesting comments for this song !!

Surjit > Beautiful song in raag Kalavati; some (Balaji, for example)
would say it's Jansammohini rather than Kalavati.
Balaji > Now(hopefully) to dispel a popular myth :). This song is not
based on Kalavati, in a recent discussion with Surajit A. Bose(the
Jaidev fanatic :)) this song has been conclusively(?) identified as a
Janasammohini composition.

Following comments are to be read together ... :-) :-) :-)

Ashok > if you had read RJGK-28 beyond the first clue, say upto #31,
you'd realize that you need not be defensive about this song. :))
Snehal > You didn't end by just giving "Zilmil Wo Tare~~~" and aren't
enjoying, people really staring at real stars and breaking their heads
:-) Great song. I don't know how didn't I get that in RJGK #28 ?
Balaji > Guess after Ashok's 'jhil~mil~ wo taare' this is a piece of
cake :)

Song : haaye re woh din kyooN na aaye
ja ja ke ritu laut aaye
Singer : Lata
Film : Anuradha
*ring : Balraj Sahni, Leela Naidu, Abhi Bhattacharya
Music : Pandit Ravi Shankar
Lyrics : Shailendra
------------------------------------------------------------------------

11. 41/44 : As expected.

ye bijalee raakh kar jaayegi, tere pyaar ki duniyaa
na phir tu, jee sakega aur, na tujh_ko maut aayegi

What a curse ! And you thought GHazals are LOVE songs ?! Do you remember
the promised "Myth Explosion Agenda" ? :-) If your views on GHazal are
changing, then Mubaarak ho. Ask the writer of the ATMJH series about
the name of the MD. :-)
--------
Ashok > I have doubts about calling this a ghazal. "aayegi" "jaayegi"
as qafiya and no radeef?

That's a valid Qaafiya. And Radeef may be omitted.

Surjit > The bitterness of these lyrics capture perfectly the spirit of
this gloomy and twisted movie. I remember the picturization of this
song. An impossibly young-looking Pratap Sharma sits on a river bank,
gazing away, while Tanuja's outsize, disembodied head floats above,
occupying the top one-third of the frame as she mouths these words.
Quite surreal, really.

Song : kabhi tanhaaiyoN me yooN hamaari yaad aayegi
andhere chaa rahe honge, ke bijalee chaundh jaayegi
Singer : Mubaarak Begum
Film : Hamaari Yaad Aayegi
*ring : Ashok Sharma, Tanuja
Music : Snehal Bhatkar
Lyrics : Kidar Sharma
------------------------------------------------------------------------

12. 43/44 : Good !

muhabbat ka sabak sikho, ye jaakar jalanewaaloN se
ke dil ki baat bhi lab tak, kabhi laayaa nahiN karate

A duet GHazal by Kidar Sharma ! MD Roshan and singers Mukesh, GeetaDutt.
This tune, as discussed in a thread long long long time back, is quite
a cousin of CR's "muhabbat aisi dhadkan hai". The Roshan tune is also
sweet. I would rate Roshan as high as MM and Khayyam for GHazals. Also,
his tunes are more like "geet", if you still haven't changed your
opinion about the tunes for GHazals :-) :-)

Technical Diversion.
This song really deserves a diversion. I got the lyrics of this song on
RMIM long time back. I don't know, if they are complete, but they are
really interesting. You see, in a GHazal, the Matla (first sher) has to
have the Radeef in both the lines. The other shers too, CAN have the
Radeef in both the lines ! This is very much allowed. When it happens,
the other shers also become candidates for being Matla. _Usually_ such
shers are grouped together in the begining of the GHazals.
Coming back to this song, out of the 4 shers I have, 3 are Matlas !!
The only one, which is not, is given as a clue :-) :-) Now give this a
thought. Can the Matlas be swapped ?!?
--------

Well, as many pointed out, there is one more stanza and it is not a
matla. It starts ... haNsee phooloN ki ...
As far as Matlas being swapped, yes it can be done. One of the offshoot
of the definition of the GHazal is - the order of the shers is of no
significance. As long as (a) Matla comes first and Maqta (if any) last.

Surjit > Sweet song. I can't remember on whom it was picturized. I mean,
Raj Kapoor, yes; but the chick who's trying to win his love isn't
Geeta Bali here, right?

Song : KHayaaloN me kisi ke is tarah aaya nahiN karte
kisi ko bewafaa aa aa ke tadapaayaa nahiN karate
Singers : Mukesh, Geeta Roy
Film : Baawre Nain
*ring : Raj Kapoor, Geeta Bali
Music : Roshan
Lyrics : Kidar Sharma
------------------------------------------------------------------------

13. 42/44 : Why -2 ? It was there in the previous quiz !

o neel gagan ke deewaane, tu pyaar na mera pehchaane,
maiN tab tak saath rahuN tere, jab tak na kahe tu maiN haara

The only GHazal composed by Mozart ... er ... Salil Chaudhary :-) ?
Another tandem song as a GHazal. You didn't expect this, right ? Even
I didn't :-) Really. Till a few days back. So in spite of repetition,
I decided to include this, as this has a high 'surprise value'.

Technical Diversion.
Won't say much here. Except this - This is an answer to another question
asked somewhere else :-) :-) :-) I hope I am not overdoing this "quiz
within a quiz" thing.
--------

I probably overdid this quiz within quiz thing. It could have been
confusing to some. I don't think this song qualifies for a GHazal. So
this is the answer of the last question of the quiz. It's not breaking
any syntax rules. It doesn't satisfy the first criterion given in the
definition found in FAQ. In a GHazal each sher/stanza has to be a
complete semantic unit. It has an existance of it's own. It's meaning
understandable just by itself. Without help from other stanzas. This
is a very crucial point, missed in many GHazal related discussion. This
is a topic by itself. Now that the quiz is over, I will start discussing
these things one by one and in more detail in coming days.

Hema > I am getting sick of these repetitions. Aane wali Quizzes ki
pidhiyon, PLEASE do not repeat these songs.

Pradeep > Actually, there are at least two ghazals in Salil's Prem Patra
. ye mere andhere, ujaale na hote (long behar one)
. khush ho rahe the hum to

BalajiMalini > The word is 'chaluu.n' here. 'rahuu.n' changes the
meaning of the song quite drastically.

Song : itna na mujh_se tu pyaar badhaa, ke maiN ik baadal aawaaraa
kaise kisi ka sahaaraa banu, ke maiN khud beghar bechaara
Singers : Lata, Talat
Film : Chhaaya
*ring : Sunil Dutt, Asha Parekh
Music : Salil Chowdhary
Lyrics : Rajinder Krishna
------------------------------------------------------------------------

14. 43/44 : Simple.

jo mujh_se nazare chura rahe ho, to meri itni arj bhi sun lo
tumhare charanoN me aa gayi huN, yahiN jeeungi, yahiN maruNgi

This is tuned by Hemantda ! Lyrics by Shakeel. Picturised on MeenaK and
Rehman. No Radeef. Enough ! But is this a GHazal ? Good question :-)
--------

This is the second song which I don't think is a GHazal. The rhyming is
not perfect. The semantic unit is also not so obvious. See prev sog.

Ashok > Don't know; how strict should one be about kafiya? "marungi"
"paDungi", etc.? (Weaker kafiya than, say, "karoongi", "Daroongi"
Hema > Alright Abhay, this is not a ghazal and its inclusion is
objectionable.

Surjit > BTW, that should be "jo mujh_se a.nKiyaa.n chura rahe ho.

Song : na jaao saiNya chuDaake baiNya, qasam tumhari maiN ro padungi
Singer : Geeta Dutt
Film : Saahib Biwi Aur Ghulam
*ring : Rehman, Meena Kumari, Guru Dutt, Waheeda Rehman
Music : Hemant Kumar
Lyrics : Shakeel
------------------------------------------------------------------------

15. 42/44 : Why -2 ?

sharm roke hai idhar, shouq udhar kheeNche hai
kya khabar thi, kabhi is dil ki ye haalat hogi

GHazal as sawaa-jawaab ! Amazing Sahir. This is the 2nd time, I myslef,
am including this song in a quiz !! I really love this Roshan tune. A
duet by Rafi and Lata.
--------

Hema > Really a very nice tune by Roshan, who I think is better than MM
for composing ghazals. But again, you could have included "Jurm-E-
ulfat pe hamen log sazaa" from the same movie instead of repetition.
Lata sounds great in this song. Also I think "Jurm-E-Ulfat Pe" kind of
tunes are nice for filmi ghazals. Note how the mukhda is not repeated
after every stanza, instead the stanzas just follow in continuation
without much delay and fancy music in between.

Song : paaoN chhoo lene do phooloN ko inaayat hogi
warna humko nahiN, inko bhi shikaayat hogi
Singer : Lata, Rafi
Film : Taj Mahal
*ring : Pradeep Kumar, Beena Rai
Music : Roshan
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

16. 42/44 : A long Radeef may have helped here a lot.

tumhari zulphoN se khushaboo ki bheekh lene ko
jhuki jhuki si ghataaeN, bula rahi haiN tumhe

I have a high opinion for Ravi's GHazals. His tunes for GHazals have a
lot of variety, and suit the lyrics. This is a gem by Rafi. The words
are by Sahir, naturally :-) Picturised on Sunil Dutt and Nanda. But you
should be able to take the help of your friend Radeef here !!! Also, by
now, you must agree that a "dardbhari aawaaz" is not enough for GHazal.
GHazal too, needs a versatile singer. Myth Explosion !
--------

Ashok > But Rafi is "painful" here! :)
Pradeep > Ravi must have been out of his mind to choose Rafi and not MK
for this gem. ho sakata hai hai MK se un dinon Ravisaab ka koi
jhagada-vagada chal raha ho :-)
Anup > In this song Rafi sounds like/copying Mahendra Kapoor. :)

Iska badlaa liya jaaega. Zaruur liyaa jaaega. :-)

Song : ye vaadiyaN ye fizaayeN, bula rahi haiN tumhe
khamoshiyoN ki sadaaeN, bula rahi haiN tumhe
Singer : Rafi
Film : Aaj Aur Kal
*ring : Ashok Kumar, Sunil Dutt, Nanda, Tanuja
Music : Ravi
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

17. 34/44 : Turned out to be difficult. The movie name is right there !

tum to raho salaamat, sehara tumhe mubarak
mera har ek aaNsu, dene lagaa duaayeN

There are 2 Title Song GHazals in the quiz, this OTOH is a "title sher"!
MD is Ramlal and a great rendition by Rafi. No Radeef. The intruments
used (Shehnai, chaughada?) and their usage here are absolutely
"non-traditional". Do I need to remind you of "Myth Explosion Agenda" :-)

Diversion.
BTW, have you found the 2 title song GHazals ? I have directly mentioned
only one ! Other is half-title song :-) as the movie had 2 titles.
--------

The 2 title song GHazals are 11th and 23rd.

Song : taqdeer ka fasaana jaakar kise sunaaeN
is dil me jal rahi haiN, armaan ki chitaaeN
Singer : Rafi
Film : Sehra
*ring : Sandhya, Prashant
Music : Raamlal
Lyrics : Hasrat
------------------------------------------------------------------------

18. 35/44 : In spite of giving too many hints !

apane gajare ke har ik phool ke taarif suni,
zakhm-e-dil hamne dikhaaya, to buraa maan gaye

The GHazal "chalke teri aaNkhoNse" is quite infamous on RMIM. This one,
again by SJ is a stiff competition to it. The lyrics here, are not bad.
In fact I included this, as GHazal is being used for "chhedchhad".
That's the novelty. Otherwise, it's a not a good tune. Rafi singing for
RajendraK who is teasing a young Saira Banu. And don't forget your
best friends, Radeef and Qaafiya ! There are here to help you !! In all
their glory. Pay attention to this advise. Otherwise I will have to say
that the participants "buraa maan gaye". :-)

Diversion : SJ were not THAT bad with GHazals. Can you remember some
better GHazals by them ?
--------

Looks like not everybody paid attention to the subclues ! I had almost
given the answer. It's right there. I even gave a full point to those
who just mentioned "buraa maan gaye" ! The song is not so obscure. In
fact the sher I have included is quite good. Anyway.

About SJ's better GHazals

Ashok > 1. mere bhaiNs do DaNDa kyu.n maara
2. ham kaale hai to kya hua dilwaale hai.n
Snehal > No one asked that ?! :) Following is all IMHO,
1. Aye Bahar Ban Kar - Raj Hath
2. Hum Tum Se Mohbat Kar Ke Sanam - Awara
3. Hum Dard Ke Maron Ka - Daag
4. Koi Nahi Mera Is Duniya Me - Daag
5. Hum Unke Paas Aate Haim - Naya Ghar
6. Unhe Tu Bhul Ja Ai Dil - Naya Ghar
7. Tufan Me Giri Hai Meri - Shikast
8. Unke Khayal Aye To Ate Chale Gaye - Lal Pathar ? (Don't know
if this will qualify ?)
9. What @ 'Nain Mile Chain Kahan' Manna-Lata ?
10. Is 'Hame Bhi Dedo Sahara' a candidate ?

I don't know the complete lyrics of any song right now. So cannot be
sure. But only 1 and 8 seem to be GHazals.

Hema > How about " Is rang badalti duniya mein insaan ki neeyat" from
Raajkumar? I think it's much better.

WOW ! Is that a GHazal ? :-) :-) Seriously, it may be. I will have to
listen to the song again. I don't rem the full lyrics.

Song : pyaar aaNkho se jataaya, to bura maan gaye
Singer : Rafi
Film : Aayi Milan Ki Bela
*ring : Rajendra Kumar, Saira Banu
Music : Shankar - Jaikishen
Lyrics : Hasrat
------------------------------------------------------------------------

19. 38/44 : Should have been 40+.

ye bhog bhi ek tapasya hai, tum tyaag ke maare kya jaano
apamaan racheta ka hoga, rachana ko agar THukaraaoge

Iti Sahir uvaach ! The reason why I am trying to use Sanskrit is, this
is Sahir's 'bhaashya' on Hindu Philosophy. This is prob the only filmi
ghazal directly talking about Hindu philosophy. Now, this contains pure
Hindi and is about topics, you never thought would come in GHazals. Am I
right ? That's why I included this Roshan tune sung by Lata. No Radeef.
This is the 'atom-bomb' for my "Myth Explosion Agenda" ;-)
--------

This sure was the atom-bomb ! Makes me happy !!

Hema > This is the biggest surprise in this quiz. Hindu philosophy as
Ghazal!!! BTW, dil nahin mantaa ki this is a ghazal.
Vinayak > Is this a bhajan, dohaa or a ghazal!!! Wow!

Ashok > What is all this about Hindu philosophy here? Indulging senses
is like doing tapasya? That is hedonism. Kumaragiri's philosophy
(Ashok Kumar in the film) is not Hindu, because he objects to the
above?

What I meant was, it was Sahir's comment on Hindu Philosophy. He is in a
way opposing a main thought in _this_ poem. (I agree with Sahir here).

Surjit > I've always thought this was a really profound sher. In fact,
Sahir's lyrics here are first-rate. I can't remember offhand who wrote
the lyrics for Amrapali but there's an equally profound verse in that
movie
gyaan ki kaisi siimaa gyaani
gaagar me.n saagar ka paani (jaao re jogii tum jaao re)
which says the same thing as the one you've quoted, though in a less
"theological" and more epistemological way.

Song : sansaar se bhaage phirte ho, bhagwaan ko kya tum paaoge
is log ko bhi apna na sake, us log me bhi pachhtaaoge
Singer : Lata
Film : Chitralekha
*ring : Ashok Kumar, Meena Kumari
Music : Roshan
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

20. 44/44 : As expected.

shaam tanhaai ki hai, aayegi manzil kaise
jo mujhe raah dikhaaye, wo sitaaraa na rahaa

I can hear the entire KKKlan saying a relieved, "hushshsh" :-) OK, OK,
I wouldn't have completed this quiz without including KK's best attempt
at GHazals :-) This is the 2nd of the 2 GHazals by KK here. The MD (!)
too, adds to whatever little variety this quiz has.
--------

Hema > Well, I'm glad you realize that this quiz has very little
variety, but do you realize it has very little freshness too? :)

Here I am, thinking that my whole approach is very fresh and novel :-)

Ashok > Why the '!'? It is a better ghazal composition than any by S-J!
Surjit > Is it "voh sitaaraa" or "vohi taaraa"? And is there any truth
to the story that this song is KK's personal tribute to S.D. Burman?
BalajiMalini > Why MD(!)? Kishore did have several good compositions to
his credit.

Pradeep > ye to kamaal ho gaya ... KK who was long accused on RMIM on
the 'never sang ghazal charge', not only sang, but composed too!

David > Jhumroo (1961), geet Majrooh; md - well, you do like waving the
red rag to the bulls (or, given the topic of this RJGK, is it more
like playing the flute in front of the oxen :-)

Song : koi hamdam na raha, koi sahaara na raha
hum kisike na rahe, koi hamaara na raha
Singer : Kishore
Film : Door Gagan Ki ChhaoN Me
*ring : Kishore Kumar, Supriya Chowdhury, Amit Kumar
Music : Kishore Kumar
Lyrics : Majrooh
------------------------------------------------------------------------

21. 44/44 : Again as expected.

na jaane kaun_sa pal, maut ki amaanat ho,
har ek pal ki KHushi ko gale lagaate jeeo

Thanks to B.R.Chopra, we have many Ravi-Sahir-SunilD-MahedraK combos :-)
This is a fine shouting effort by MKaps. Don't complain about so many
Ravi songs here. He is not MM-Khayyam-Roshan when it comes to GHazals,
but his contribution to GHazals is quite substantial and good too. This
tune is also non-traditional. But the best thing is Sahir's lyrics !
Doesn't this sher fit the scene ? It's sung for soldiers ! Superb.

Diversion :
I have always claimed that Sahir's Nazms are better than his GHazals.
That's also the general opinion. But I was delighted to find so many
Sahir songs to include in this quiz on non-traditional GHazals. It was
a pleasent surprise. Maybe, we can say that, Sahir has done maximum
experiments with GHazal ! A truely great poet.
--------

One of the reasons, why I like Sahir is, he seems to express exactly
my thoughts ! This sher is one of the many instances.

Anup > Minor correction "lagaate" should be "lagaake".

Ashok > It is really sung for Vimalesh Agarwal (aka Vimi)!
Surjit > I just remember the heroine was someone with the odd name of
Vimmi. Probably short for Vimla or something. Or else she was named
after a dishwashing powder, but that's unlikely, innit?

Hema > Are you a Ravi fan, Abhay?

Had he not used MKaps so often, I would have been a Ravi fan :-)

BalajiMalini > Tune is non-traditional? You mean for a ghazal or
otherwise? This was a very folksy tune(listen to the interlude)
inherently. But aren't you contradicting yourself here, if you say
that this is a non-traditional ghazal tune?

I meant for GHazal. This type of tune is quite unique for GHazal.

Song : na muNh chhupaake jiyo, aur na sar jhukaake jio
ghamoN ka daur bhi aae to, muskuraake jio
Singer : Mahendra Kapoor
Film : Hamraaz
*ring : Sunil Dutt, Vimmi, Raaj Kumar, Mumtaz, Balraj Sahni
Music : Ravi
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

22. 28/44 : It was difficult.

barbaad wafa ka afsaanaa, hum kis_se kahe aur kaise kahe
khaamosh hai lab, aur duniya ko, ashqoN ki zubaaN maloom nahiN

We have noticed that, Roshan has some sweet GHazals to his cerdit. This
one has been included as a "ruined GHazal". The lyrics by Sahir are
really nice and fit the situation. (No need to say this :-)). But the
tune doesn't fit the lyrics at all. It's bad, frankly. Still, let's not
rush and put Roshan in the league of SJ for GHazals. Here, I think the
culprit is the director. He prob wanted to have a Mujra by Helen and
so ordered for such a tune. This MeenaK-PradeepK-AshokK movie otherwise,
has some of the best and most famous Roshan-Sahir combos.
--------

Surjit > At first I hated the composition. I agree with you that it
doesn't suit the lyrics at all. But the melody does grow on you.
Sami > I ADORE this ghazal

Song : nikle thhe kahaaN jaane ke liye, jaana tha kahaaN maalum nahiN
Singer : Asha Bhonsle
Film : Bahu Begum
*ring : Meena Kumar, Ashok Kumar, Pradeep Kumar
Music : Roshan
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

23. 26/44 : What's the "story" behind this ??

palat ke su-e-chaman, dekhane se kya hoga
wo shaakh hi na rahi, jo thi aashiyaaN ke liye

( su-e-chaman = chaman ki taraf, shaakh = branch)

GHazal as a title song ! A great one by Sahir and tuned by LP !! I like
the tune. A nice experiment. Nontraditional tune for traditional poetry.
Rafi's singing for DilipK has always been great. I am not going to tell
you anything about the "story" of this movie. No. Nothing. :-)
--------

Ramkrishnan > Got this from Sami's Sahir page :))

Song : na tu zameeN ke liye, hai na aasmaaN ke liye
teraa vajood hai ab, sirf dastaaN ke liye
Singer : Rafi
Film : DastaaN
*ring : Dilip Kumar, Sharmila Tagore
Music : Laxmikant - Pyaarelal
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

24. 39/44 : Long Radeef may have helped.
ek muddat se, tamanna thi tumhe chhoone ki,
aaj bas me nahiN jazbaat, qarib aa jaao

GHazal as a rain-song !! Trust Sahir to do these tricks ! The sher is
not at all subtle/indirect, OTOH it's direct in an unabashed way. Didn't
I tell you, GHazal in films has all the variety you need ? This is a
Ravi song, sung superbly by Rafi. This too, is a repetition :-) But how
about "myth explosion" :-) :-)
--------

Song : door rehkar na karo baat, qarib aa jaaoN
Singer : Rafi
Film : Amaanat
*ring : Manoj Kumar, Sadhana, Balraj Sahni
Music : Ravi
Lyrics : Sahir
------------------------------------------------------------------------

25. 40/44 : Expected.

uTHaaye phirate the, ehsaan dil ka seene par
le aaj tere kadamoN me, ye karz bhi utaar chale

The famous combination of Madanmohan and Lata ! At last. But the main
reason for including this song is someone else. He is the poet who is
often criticized on RMIM as a non-traditional poet (to put it mildly).
Here, the notorious Gulzar is seen writting a very very traditional
GHazal. A form which has strong syntax ! This is a sign of a great poet.
He can write GHazals and muktachanda with equal ease. And what a sher !

Technical Diversion.
The rules don't say anything about - whether the shers of the GHazal
should be on different topics or on the same topics. In fact both the
types are valid. The one, in which all the shers are on the same topic
is called "GHazal musalsil". The other, where the shers are on different
topics is called "GHazal GHair_musalsil". This second type, is much more
common. This is the type which we often hear in non-filmi GHazals. But,
you see, the first one is better for films, as all the shers could be
related to the situation ! So naturally, the filmi ghazals have more
from the 'musalsil' type. Is it why we don't consider them as GHazals ?
Is this the only "GHazal GHair_musalsil" in this quiz ?
--------

No ! The GHazals by GHalib and Mir are most certainly GHair_musalsil !!!

Both Pradeep & Surjit pointed out that the 2nd line has no "aaj" in it.

Ashok > Calling him [Gulzar] a poet is as correct at calling Ghalib a
lyricist! He is criticized not for being non-traditional, but being a
poor songwriter, a poetaster, if you will. [On his GHazals] On the
other hand, he thinks he has less work to do in a ghazal: he doesn't
have to worry about rhyming in the stanzas, which the alternative
nameless structure would necessitate!

Hema > nice lyrics. Who says Gulzaar (although cannot be compared to
Sahir) is always "khali bartan"?
Anup > Sahir too used words like "Thaane", "Choti", "Maatha" and nobody
on RMIM criticises him for that. It takes courage to go against
traditions and Gulzar has it. :))

Song : ruke ruke yeh kadam, ruk_ke baar baar chale
qaraar paake, tere dar_se beqaraar chale
Singer : Lata
Film : Mausam
*ring : Sanjeev Kumar, Sharmila Tagore
Music : Madan Mohan
Lyrics : Gulzar

------------------------------------------------------------------------

26. 29/44 : BUT why ???

din raat ke dono paiyye bhi, kuchh dhul uda kar beet gaye,
maiN man_aangan me baiTHee rahi, chaukhat se koi guzaraa nahiN

By now a Hindi GHazal or a GHazal by Gulzar is no surprise at all :-).
__BUT__ this is a ghost song ! And still a GHazal !! It also has some
typical Gulzarish phrases :-) MD is Hridaynath.
--------

Again, the movie name was obvious. Lekin ... kya kareN ?
BTW, the "booddhaa baaba" phrase comes from this song. Got it ? :-)

Sami > Some phaaltu Gulzar song...
Pradeep > This has to be some 'lekin' song, from your clues. But don't
recall it.

Pradeep's Presidency of Gullubaba Club is in serious danger :-)

Balaji > 'suniyo ji ek araj' is another candidate from this movie. In
fact, HM has recycled an old tune of his for this song from a Ghalib
ghazal that he composed for Lata 'rone se aur ishq mein bebaq ho gaye'
BTW, HM is Hridayanath Mangeshkar lest Ashok confuses him for
Hrishikesh Mukherjee :)

Song : maiN ek sadi_se baithi huN, is raah se koi guzaraa nahiN
kuchh chaand ke rath to guzare the, chaand se koi utara nahiN
Singer : Lata
Film : Lekin
*ring : Dimple Kapadia, Vinod Khanna, Hema Malini, Amjad Khan
Music : Hridaynath Mangeshkar
Lyrics : Gulzar
------------------------------------------------------------------------

27. 40/44 : This quiz shows equal respect towards both Ghalib and Mir !

parastish kee yaaN tak, ki ai buut tujhe
nazar mein sabhoN_ki, KHuda kar chale

(parastish = pooja, yaaN tak = is had tak, buut = beloved/statue)

The quiz started with a great shayar and ends with another one. This is
the only GHazal by Mir taken in movies, AFAIK. Tell me frankly, don't
these two shers stand out ? It also allows me to end it with my King of
Filmi GHazals - Khayyam !! This one is from one of his last movies, and
the songs were popular too. The movie *ed Smita Patil.

The last diversion.
The word "buut" has two different meanings. Which one in your opnion
suits here most ? Can there be two different meanings ? Let me give
you a hint. In Islam, it's forbidden to worship a statue.
--------

Yes, for me, both the meanings apply. Extra-ordinary sher.

Ashok > [on Khayyam] No. It's a 1982 film. He has quite a few films
ater that, including 'Razia Sultan.'

Hema > The buut=beloved suits here as this is a romantic ghazal where
the heroine is describing the effect of her encounter with the hero
who has separated her from herself! (Dikhayee diye yun ke bekhud kiya,
hamen aapse bhi judaa kar chale). In this stanza she is describing
the extent to which she worshipped him so as to make a statue as God.
Well, so both the meanings apply here.

David > Well, 'but' is 'idol', na? With both senses - and Pygmalion took
the pun literally, didn't he (not to say the Prince in Mughal-e-Azam)?
I idolised (but-paristished) you so much
In the eyes of all you were a god

Anup > My guess: Somehow "beloved" is more suited because there was no
"statue" in the picture. :) If I am not mistaken in Islam its also
forbidden to worship anyone other then "Allah" so the lines I guess
makes sense.

Surjit > Incidentally, this song doesn't seem to have a matla. Does it
still qualify as a ghazal? How come?

Thanks for asking that. The original GHazal by Mir has a Matla, but it
is not taken in the film song. It's extra-ordinary and typically by Mir.
faqiraanaa aaye, sadaa kar chale,
"miyaaN, khush raho", ham duaa kar chale

Song : dikhaai diye yooN, ki bekhud kiya
hame aap se bhi juda kar chale
Singer : Lata
Film : Bazaar
*ring : Farooq Sheikh, Smita Patil, Supriya Pathak
Music : Khayyam
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for the results !

This was a super-easy quiz. So I am listing only the first few (or
actually first MANY) scores.

Below 20 06 entries
20-23 12 entries

On 24/27 : 03 entries
KK Ramkrishnan, Puneet Oza and Sami.

On 25/27 : 04 entries BRONZE MEDAL !!!
Daivid Windsor, Vaishali, Hema Khemani, Vinayak Deshpande.

On 26/27 : 10 entries SILVER MEDAL !!!
Veena Nayak & Ajay Nerurkar
Arish, Chiru and Anupam
Guri
Manjeet Rekhi
Neeraj and Prince
Pintu and Shalini
Preetham
Surajit Bose
Swatee Naik
Vandana and Bhuvna

On 27/27 : 09 entries GOLD MEDAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ambrish Sundaram
Aunp Pandey
Ashok
Balaji and Malini
Ikram and Kalyan
Nishi Bhatnagar
Snehal Oza
Dr. Surjit Singh and Harmesh Kaur
UVRavindra and Pavan

CONGRATULATIONS to them !!!!!!
And a big big thank you to all the participants.

The previous quiz I conducted had 10 Gold Medalists.
So I guess this quiz was much tougher, only 9 of them :-).

Once again thanks to everybody for making this quiz a success.
This RJGK was also a foundation for the coming discussions on
GHazal which I intend to start. And also for the ASAD series,
which I am going to restart soon.

Hope you enjoyed !

- Abhay.
Thanks !

[Nitin Sharma]

Abhay Avachat (ava...@informix.com) wrote:
: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

: RMIM-Jhim GeetoN Ki
: GHazals in Hindi Movies
: RJGK - 36

: Solutions, Comments and Results

: 03. -- 40/44 : Is this stanza not there in all versions ? I doubt.

: tute hue patvaar haiN, kashti ke hum to kya ~~
: haari huii baahoN ki hi patvaar banaa le

: Song : taqdeer se bigdi hui tadbeer banaa le

: apane pe bharosa hai, to ik daaNv lagaa le

Shouldnt this be *tadbeer* se bigdi hui *taqdeer* bana le ??

kind of inverts the whole idea expressed in the song..

: Singers : Geeta Dutt

: Film : Baazi
: *ring : Dev Anand, Geeta Bali
: Music : S. D. Burman
: Lyrics : Sahir

-nitin

[Malini]

In article <5ceo5j$5...@lex.zippo.com>, ADhar...@WorldBank.Org says...
>
>Thanks, Abhay, for the nice results post to gild the lily of a quiz.
>If memory serves me right, the quiz drew the third highest response
>for an RJGK, after satish's blockbuster on Majrooh and Renu's Silver
>Jubilee quiz. Congratulations.
>

<snip snip>

>>
>>BalajiMalini > And this is for all those KKKlaners. Manna De would have
>> been as good in this song, and remember this is not a classical song,
>> so there.
>

>Oh, oh. Malini is at it again?! She used the Manna Dey stick to beat
>Rafi with earlier. And now she goes after KK with the same stick!
>

These are the perils of participating as a team in a quiz. Somebody else's
comments can be attributed to you :). In other words, Ashok, you're being a
little hasty to conclude that it was me and not Balaji who made this comment.
To clarify, I like Manna Dey for his ability to sing classical songs to
perfection. But I would never want to bring him in for comparison for other
kinds of songs. I like this song perfectly well in KK's voice. This comment was
made by Balaji, who likes Manna Dey in all kinds of songs, and therefore is a
bigger fan of Manna Dey.

Malini

>>
>>Song : hum haiN raahi pyaar ke, hum_se kuchh na boliye
>>Singer : Kishore Kumar
>>Film : Nau Do Gyaarah
>>*ring : Dev Anand, Kalpana Kartik
>>Music : S. D. Burman
>>Lyrics : Majrooh
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>

>>Hema > I am getting sick of these repetitions. Aane wali Quizzes ki
>> pidhiyon, PLEASE do not repeat these songs.
>

>I get the feeling she has mugged up all the earlier quzzes from Sami's
>homepage, like one looks up old exam papers!

>
>>
>>Surjit > I've always thought this was a really profound sher. In fact,
>> Sahir's lyrics here are first-rate. I can't remember offhand who wrote
>> the lyrics for Amrapali but there's an equally profound verse in that
>> movie
>> gyaan ki kaisi siimaa gyaani
>> gaagar me.n saagar ka paani (jaao re jogii tum jaao re)
>> which says the same thing as the one you've quoted, though in a less
>> "theological" and more epistemological way.
>

>Don't see how it is the same thing. I do prefer Shailendra's couplet.
>Sahir's lyrics in this whole song sound like a lecture delivered from
>a lectern! Poetry should show rather than tell. No?

>
>>
>>Song : sansaar se bhaage phirte ho, bhagwaan ko kya tum paaoge
>> is log ko bhi apna na sake, us log me bhi pachhtaaoge

^^^ ^^^
It's lok, meaning world not log.

-Malini

>>Singer : Lata
>>Film : Chitralekha
>>*ring : Ashok Kumar, Meena Kumari
>>Music : Roshan
>>Lyrics : Sahir
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

>Ashok
>

[anup_pandey]

In article <5cbdpg$g...@lana.zippo.com>, ava...@informix.com says...
>

Thanks Abhay for one of the most interesting RJGKs, ofcourse I have
some other obvious reasons for liking this RJGK more than other RJGKs.

>
>On 27/27 : 09 entries GOLD MEDAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Ambrish Sundaram
>Aunp Pandey

Now who is this "Aunp". Is this "A Pun" with my name "Anup". :)
Abhay kabhi kabhie to hamare naseeb main aisa hota hi bade logon
ke saath hamraa naam aaye; aur tumne usmein hamara naam bigaad ke
likh diyaa. :((

Is it an innocent mistake or is there something sinister behind
this. :) May be you are taking the "badlaa" for your defeat in
the last war when you had to wave white flag and save your club
(club that now has a "punchline") by making an excuse of Xmas. :)))

Cheers
Anup

[Vijay Kumar]

Such high scores! Boss, this newsgroup is full of fanatics. No
hope for poor souls like me.

Two nitpicks:

Abhay Avachat (ava...@informix.com) wrote:

: Song : KHayaaloN me kisi ke is tarah aaya nahiN karte

: kisi ko bewafaa aa aa ke tadapaayaa nahiN karate
: Singers : Mukesh, Geeta Roy
: Film : Baawre Nain
: *ring : Raj Kapoor, Geeta Bali
: Music : Roshan
: Lyrics : Kidar Sharma

I seem to remember this song as featuring Vijay Lakshmi
(the heroine with the most beautiful name!), not Geeta. Can someone
confirm?

Regarding 'buut', does the word really have to meanings? Or is
that like saying 'parwana' has two meanings, the second being 'lover'?
Someone knowlwdgeable may please comment.

Vijay, from his sickbed (diehard reader, what!).

[Ashok]

Thanks, Abhay, for the nice results post to gild the lily of a quiz.
If memory serves me right, the quiz drew the third highest response
for an RJGK, after satish's blockbuster on Majrooh and Renu's Silver
Jubilee quiz. Congratulations.

>Surjit > The "myth destruction agenda" was interesting, as it led to

> quite a variety of songs being included. The question that arises
> then, is that if all these songs can be called ghazals by virtue of
> their rhyme-scheme alone, what's gained by that identification? I
> mean, OK, so "tadbeer se bigdi hui" is a ghazal. So what? How does it
> help my appreciation of the song? Or enhance my understanding of the
> genre? I wasn't always sure.

You sound like the character in a famous French novel (Is it 'Pere Goriot'?),
who was surprised to discover that all his life he has used language
without knowing it!

Poetically, rather than 'ghazal', it is perhaps better to focus the basic
unit, 'sher'. It is like Haiku. Don't you find the economy of space that
the two-line format imposes interesting? I'd imagine that the craft and
mechanics of song-writing is vastly different for a 'sher' as opposed to
"two rhyming lines plus a refrain line". The varied nature of types and
moods encompassed by the format, as exhibited by Abhay, has been an
eye-opener.

Musically also, the features of the ghazal--mukhaDa is of the same size
as the antaraas and the antaraas are always of two lines--seem to make
for interesting "economy of time" challenges for composers. For example,
it looks like the first line of the antaraa sher is almost invariably
repeated (the only exception I have come across is one particular antaraa
of the song from 'Baazi' included in the quiz). You can also see that
some inferior MDs are quite clueless and diffident; they have so little
confidence in the melody they have devised that they try to cover up by
three-peating the first line! (e.g., the Rafi "ghazal" from 'Arzoo'.)
Of course, Abhay has sought to expolde the myth that there are typically
ghazal-ish tunes, sombre or invoking particular moods (It looks like he
has not been entirely successful, judging from various comments he has
received and posted, including one of his own!). I am talking here about
the restrictions imposed on the progression of the melody by the very
structure of the ghazal.

>Hema > There is a genuine complaint though. There are so many other
> beautiful ghazals. Why did you not include them instead of repeating
> the same songs that have featured n times in the RJGKs and
> Chitrahaars?

Wow! And you wouldn't guess that her n is 2!!
(This is your second RJGK, right, Hema?)

>
> How about some English shers. All plagiarized from the RAFIans'
> punchline! :)
>
> Love for ghazals didn't make me try this quiz.
> I loved all the clues so I tried this quiz.
>
> I didn't try the quiz because I understood ghazals.
> I understand ghazals now because I tried this quiz.
>
> Where would you go without attempting this quiz, Satish?
> By making you a beta-tester He made sure you tried this quiz!

satish has outdone himself!

>Hema > I think some "stray capacitance" of Rabindra sangeet can always
> be seen in Hemant's songs. What do the fellow netters think?
>Surjit > Can we declare a moratorium on this song's appearance in
> Chitrahaar or RJGK quizzes, please? It's pleasant, but not that
> great- -the sing-song melody sounds like a nursery rhyme and the
> lyrics are cliched.

Interesting. Another sophomore (right?) compalaining about repititions!
And he goes on to 'dis' a Rabindra sangeetish tune!!

>Satish > This song one has one more sher sung by Kishore-Asha:
> jhelte dhoop chaawn ham, phirte gaawn gaawn ham
> sar pe rakke paawn ham, Nau Do Gyaarah ho gaye
> That is how Majrooh ends the movie!

Thanks, satish, for digging this up.

>
>BalajiMalini > And this is for all those KKKlaners. Manna De would have
> been as good in this song, and remember this is not a classical song,
> so there.

Oh, oh. Malini is at it again?! She used the Manna Dey stick to beat

Rafi with earlier. And now she goes after KK with the same stick!

>

>Song : hum haiN raahi pyaar ke, hum_se kuchh na boliye
>Singer : Kishore Kumar
>Film : Nau Do Gyaarah
>*ring : Dev Anand, Kalpana Kartik
>Music : S. D. Burman
>Lyrics : Majrooh
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

>Hema > I am getting sick of these repetitions. Aane wali Quizzes ki
> pidhiyon, PLEASE do not repeat these songs.

I get the feeling she has mugged up all the earlier quzzes from Sami's

homepage, like one looks up old exam papers!

>

>Surjit > I've always thought this was a really profound sher. In fact,
> Sahir's lyrics here are first-rate. I can't remember offhand who wrote
> the lyrics for Amrapali but there's an equally profound verse in that
> movie
> gyaan ki kaisi siimaa gyaani
> gaagar me.n saagar ka paani (jaao re jogii tum jaao re)
> which says the same thing as the one you've quoted, though in a less
> "theological" and more epistemological way.

Don't see how it is the same thing. I do prefer Shailendra's couplet.

Sahir's lyrics in this whole song sound like a lecture delivered from
a lectern! Poetry should show rather than tell. No?

>

>Song : sansaar se bhaage phirte ho, bhagwaan ko kya tum paaoge
> is log ko bhi apna na sake, us log me bhi pachhtaaoge
>Singer : Lata
>Film : Chitralekha
>*ring : Ashok Kumar, Meena Kumari
>Music : Roshan
>Lyrics : Sahir
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>BalajiMalini > Tune is non-traditional? You mean for a ghazal or

> otherwise? This was a very folksy tune(listen to the interlude)
> inherently. But aren't you contradicting yourself here, if you say
> that this is a non-traditional ghazal tune?
>
>I meant for GHazal. This type of tune is quite unique for GHazal.

Repeat: When you say that, aren't you indulging in a myth? :)

>
>Song : na muNh chhupaake jiyo, aur na sar jhukaake jio
> ghamoN ka daur bhi aae to, muskuraake jio
>Singer : Mahendra Kapoor
>Film : Hamraaz
>*ring : Sunil Dutt, Vimmi, Raaj Kumar, Mumtaz, Balraj Sahni
>Music : Ravi
>Lyrics : Sahir
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>24. 39/44 : Long Radeef may have helped.
> ek muddat se, tamanna thi tumhe chhoone ki,
> aaj bas me nahiN jazbaat, qarib aa jaao
>
>GHazal as a rain-song !! Trust Sahir to do these tricks ! The sher is
>not at all subtle/indirect, OTOH it's direct in an unabashed way. Didn't
>I tell you, GHazal in films has all the variety you need ? This is a
>Ravi song, sung superbly by Rafi. This too, is a repetition :-) But how
>about "myth explosion" :-) :-)
> --------
>
>Song : door rehkar na karo baat, qarib aa jaaoN
>Singer : Rafi
>Film : Amaanat
>*ring : Manoj Kumar, Sadhana, Balraj Sahni
>Music : Ravi
>Lyrics : Sahir

Abhay, how is this a rain song?

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Anup > Sahir too used words like "Thaane", "Choti", "Maatha" and nobody
> on RMIM criticises him for that. It takes courage to go against
> traditions and Gulzar has it. :))

Anup is anwering his own point! It helps if those sho go against
tradition also write something worthwhile!

Ashok

[anup_pandey]

In article <5ceo5j$5...@lex.zippo.com>, ADhar...@WorldBank.Org says...
>

>Thanks, Abhay, for the nice results post to gild the lily of a quiz.
>If memory serves me right, the quiz drew the third highest response
>for an RJGK, after satish's blockbuster on Majrooh and Renu's Silver
>Jubilee quiz. Congratulations.
>

Congratulations Abhay Sahaab. Your RJGK was a good one.

>>Song : hum haiN raahi pyaar ke, hum_se kuchh na boliye
>>Singer : Kishore Kumar
>>Film : Nau Do Gyaarah
>>*ring : Dev Anand, Kalpana Kartik
>>Music : S. D. Burman
>>Lyrics : Majrooh
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
>>Hema > I am getting sick of these repetitions. Aane wali Quizzes ki
>> pidhiyon, PLEASE do not repeat these songs.
>
>I get the feeling she has mugged up all the earlier quzzes from Sami's
>homepage, like one looks up old exam papers!
>

Let me present the other side. I think its kind of unfair to ask those
who are preparing RJGK or for that matter any quiz not to repeat any
songs from previous quiz(zes). Lets say if someone decides to do a RJGK
on Shakeel then there is a good chance of some common songs from previous
Naushad's RJGK. Now don't expect me not to repeat any songs when I will
be doing 100th RJGK. :))

>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Anup > Sahir too used words like "Thaane", "Choti", "Maatha" and nobody
>> on RMIM criticises him for that. It takes courage to go against
>> traditions and Gulzar has it. :))
>
>Anup is anwering his own point! It helps if those sho go against
>tradition also write something worthwhile!
>

Well Ashok, that's precisely my point. :) Am I supposed to deduce from
your posts that Gulzar never wrote anything worthwhile or whatever Sahir
wrote was worthwhile or am I missing something. :)

Cheers
Anup

>
>Ashok
>

[Surajit A. Bose]

Whassamatter, Ashok? Got up on the wrong side of the bed? Or ran out of
castor oil? All these pot shots at everyone who made comments re: Abhay's
quiz are quite uncalled for. ;-) They're fun though....

Anyway, I'm gonna try and defend myself....

In article <5ceo5j$5...@lex.zippo.com>, ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:

> >Surjit > The "myth destruction agenda" was interesting, as it led to
> > quite a variety of songs being included. The question that arises
> > then, is that if all these songs can be called ghazals by virtue of
> > their rhyme-scheme alone, what's gained by that identification? I
> > mean, OK, so "tadbeer se bigdi hui" is a ghazal. So what? How does it
> > help my appreciation of the song? Or enhance my understanding of the
> > genre? I wasn't always sure.
>
> You sound like the character in a famous French novel (Is it 'Pere Goriot'?),
> who was surprised to discover that all his life he has used language
> without knowing it!

"Play," not novel. "Le Malade Imaginaire," not Pere Goriot. [Moliere, not
Balzac.] And "prose," not language. Three mistakes in one sentence?
Ashok, you seem to be challenging my record for presenting misinformation!

> Poetically, rather than 'ghazal', it is perhaps better to focus the basic
> unit, 'sher'. It is like Haiku. Don't you find the economy of space that
> the two-line format imposes interesting?

I fully agree that the economy of form is fascinating to contemplate. But
no amount of economy of form can transform essentially cliched or didactic
lines ("zindagi pyaar ki do chaar ghaDii hoti hai / chahe thoDi bhi ho ye
um_r baDii hoti hai," or even "TuuTe hue patvaar hai kashti ke to gham
kyaa / haari hui baaho.n ko hi patvaar bana le") into good poetry.

> >Song : sansaar se bhaage phirte ho, bhagwaan ko kya tum paaoge
> > is log ko bhi apna na sake, us log me bhi pachhtaaoge
> >Singer : Lata
> >Film : Chitralekha
> >*ring : Ashok Kumar, Meena Kumari
> >Music : Roshan
> >Lyrics : Sahir
> >Surjit > I've always thought this was a really profound sher. In fact,
> > Sahir's lyrics here are first-rate. I can't remember offhand who wrote
> > the lyrics for Amrapali but there's an equally profound verse in that
> > movie
> > gyaan ki kaisi siimaa gyaani
> > gaagar me.n saagar ka paani (jaao re jogii tum jaao re)
> > which says the same thing as the one you've quoted, though in a less
> > "theological" and more epistemological way.
>
> Don't see how it is the same thing. I do prefer Shailendra's couplet.
> Sahir's lyrics in this whole song sound like a lecture delivered from
> a lectern! Poetry should show rather than tell. No?

Two different issues: (1) How are they the same thing? Because Sahir says,
everything in the world should be experienced, since everything in the
world has the same creator. Shailendra says, that our knowledge of any
facet of life leads ultimately to knowledge itself. (the paani / saagar
equation, as you doubtless know, is a cornerstone of Advaita philosophy: I
see the waves, you see the ocean, but reality is only water--"kehte hai.n
gyaani..."). And both lyrics argue against renunciation and serve as
invitations to love. Sahir comes at it from theology, Shailendra from
epistemology, but the argument is the same.

(2) What makes Sahir's lines good poetry? Well, to claim that enjoying
life's pleasures is itself an act of austerity is a neat and witty
paradox. And besides, it's quite iconoclastic. I don't know who your
lecturers were, Ashok, but they seem to have been more fun than mine;
everybody who stood behind a lectern told me that I should work harder and
not waste my energy on worldly pleasures.

Finally, RJGK-36 wasn't just my second quiz. It's one of the two quizzes
that I've done respectably in, but that's another issue entirely! :-)

-sab

[hnk...@pitt.edu]

Ashok wrote:
>
> Thanks, Abhay, for the nice results post to gild the lily of a quiz.
> If memory serves me right, the quiz drew the third highest response

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

for an RJGK, after satish's blockbuster on Majrooh and Renu's Silver
> Jubilee quiz. Congratulations.
>

Sure memory serves you right. Ashokji, apki tez-tarrar yaadasht ka
raaz kya hai? Zandu ka kesri jeevan? :-) You even recollected that
this was my second RJGK. But I guess you missed my post where I had
written that I have been a regular reader of these quizzes for a while
(of course, on Sami's homepage, which I accidently discovered in my
"novice"-on-the-internet days and got addicted since), even though I
started participating recently. And BTW, since when did Seniors
started "ragging" the sophomores? I thought it was done to the
freshmen. But I guess, I should still go through this for the first
time, isliye chalo maaf kiya.

>
> >Hema > There is a genuine complaint though. There are so many other beautiful ghazals. Why did you not include them instead of repeating the same songs that have featured n times in the RJGKs and
> > Chitrahaars?
>
> Wow! And you wouldn't guess that her n is 2!!
> (This is your second RJGK, right, Hema?)
>

>

> >Hema > I think some "stray capacitance" of Rabindra sangeet can always
> > be seen in Hemant's songs. What do the fellow netters think?
> >Surjit > Can we declare a moratorium on this song's appearance in
> > Chitrahaar or RJGK quizzes, please? It's pleasant, but not that
> > great- -the sing-song melody sounds like a nursery rhyme and the
> > lyrics are cliched.
>
> Interesting. Another sophomore (right?) compalaining about repititions!
> And he goes on to 'dis' a Rabindra sangeetish tune!!

What's your problem, Ashokji? Are you a hater of Sophomores or you
cannot digest the fact that even the newcomers (poor peasants) have
the right to complain? :-) Jaago, angrez chale gaye.

> >Hema > I am getting sick of these repetitions. Aane wali Quizzes ki pidhiyon, PLEASE do not repeat these songs.
>
> I get the feeling she has mugged up all the earlier quzzes from Sami's homepage, like one looks up old exam papers!

Well, atleast I got a Bronze medal because of my "kadi mehnat" of
mugging up old exam papers. But how did you top the list- "paise
khilaakar"? :-):-):-)

-Hema.

p.s: And you thought that people (especially bachcha log) won't return
your missiles and let you live in peace, smiling away devilishly to
glory.

[Abhay Avachat]

Thanks to everyone for their comments.
I am also sorry for the small mistakes in the quiz and the
results post. Thanks to everyone for the corrections.

>>
>>24. 39/44 : Long Radeef may have helped.
>> ek muddat se, tamanna thi tumhe chhoone ki,
>> aaj bas me nahiN jazbaat, qarib aa jaao
>>
>>GHazal as a rain-song !! Trust Sahir to do these tricks ! The sher is
>>not at all subtle/indirect, OTOH it's direct in an unabashed way. Didn't
>>I tell you, GHazal in films has all the variety you need ? This is a
>>Ravi song, sung superbly by Rafi. This too, is a repetition :-) But how
>>about "myth explosion" :-) :-)
>> --------
>>
>>Song : door rehkar na karo baat, qarib aa jaaoN
>>Singer : Rafi
>>Film : Amaanat
>>*ring : Manoj Kumar, Sadhana, Balraj Sahni
>>Music : Ravi
>>Lyrics : Sahir
>
>Abhay, how is this a rain song?

It's not ? I may be wrong. It's been long since I saw the song in
the Chitrahaar on DD. Wasn't it "a dark and stormy night" etc ?
Maybe it was raining too ? I am not sure. But since you included
this song in your Chitrahaar, you may be right, since you might
have seen it recently.

- Abhay.

[hnk...@pitt.edu]

Hema > Well, I'm glad you realize that this quiz has very little
variety, but do you realize it has very little freshness too? :)

Here I am, thinking that my whole approach is very fresh and novel :-)

>By freshness I meant no repetitions. I do agree that your approach was very fresh and novel. But the selection of songs was not and because of your excuse of "myth whatever", I'll take your word.
BTW, the quiz was excellent. Man, you seem to have all the time in
the world. Anyway, I enjoyed it a lot and I am still pondering over
every song I hear to figure out if it is a ghazal or not.

-Hema.

[Ashok]

In article <5cjmgi$p...@lana.zippo.com>, ava...@inormix.com says...

>
>
>Thanks to everyone for their comments.
>I am also sorry for the small mistakes in the quiz and the
>results post. Thanks to everyone for the corrections.
>
>>>

>>>24. 39/44 : Long Radeef may have helped.
>>> ek muddat se, tamanna thi tumhe chhoone ki,
>>> aaj bas me nahiN jazbaat, qarib aa jaao
>>>
>>>GHazal as a rain-song !! Trust Sahir to do these tricks ! The sher is
>>>not at all subtle/indirect, OTOH it's direct in an unabashed way. Didn't
>>>I tell you, GHazal in films has all the variety you need ? This is a
>>>Ravi song, sung superbly by Rafi. This too, is a repetition :-) But how
>>>about "myth explosion" :-) :-)
>>> --------
>>>
>>>Song : door rehkar na karo baat, qarib aa jaaoN
>>>Singer : Rafi
>>>Film : Amaanat
>>>*ring : Manoj Kumar, Sadhana, Balraj Sahni
>>>Music : Ravi
>>>Lyrics : Sahir
>>
>>Abhay, how is this a rain song?
>

>It's not ? I may be wrong. It's been long since I saw the song in
>the Chitrahaar on DD. Wasn't it "a dark and stormy night" etc ?
>Maybe it was raining too ? I am not sure. But since you included
>this song in your Chitrahaar, you may be right, since you might
>have seen it recently.
>
>- Abhay.
>

The song was cut in the video copy I watched. :( I could guess
where the song had just ended and made up the clue based on that
and the lyrics! Dark night and lost in the forest, but don't
know if it rained! What I was getting at was: One can't tell
by listening to the song that it is a rain song.

Ashok

[Veena S Nayak]

In article <32ED16...@pitt.edu>, <hnk...@pitt.edu> wrote:

>BTW, the quiz was excellent. Man, you seem to have all the time in

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>the world. Anyway, I enjoyed it a lot and I am still pondering over

^^^^^^^^^^^
>every song I hear to figure out if it is a ghazal or not.
>
>-Hema.

That's right! Jobless fellow that Abhay is; what better way
to spend the useless hours than come up with a first-rate quiz to
entertain us busy people? People who conduct these quizzes must
have nothing else in their lives, no?

Veena.

[Ikram Ahmed Khan]

Ashok wrote:
> You can also see that
> some inferior MDs are quite clueless and diffident; they have so little
> confidence in the melody they have devised that they try to cover up by
> three-peating the first line! (e.g., the Rafi "ghazal" from 'Arzoo'.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:) It is a time-honored practise of repeating the first line. The object
is to kinda roll the morsel around in your mouth and savor the taste,
just imagining what it would feel like when bitten. The words 'mukarrar'
(roughly 'encore') is done to show appreciation and to enjoy the
she'r once again. Hence, not only do we have the first line repeated
a few times before the second line is uttered, but after this, people
sometimes go ahead and repeat the entire she'r a few times for good
measure. :)

So, if an MD discarding traditions and using more "innovative" ways
of presenting the lyrics is superior, then Gullu badshah's "innovative"
poetry makes him superior too. :) :)

More seriously, what is the problem with the "Aarzoo" Ghazal?
Why has it been termed much-maligned on rmim?

> Of course, Abhay has sought to expolde the myth that there are typically
> ghazal-ish tunes, sombre or invoking particular moods (It looks like he

Tho' structure is important, content and thought presentation is
important too. Most of the ghazals (going out on a limb here, by
using *most* ) coming out in various 'ghazal' albums may perhaps
be qualified as structurally similar to the GHazal, but often
violate the spirit of the 'GHazal'. IMHO, Abhay is in danger of
creating the myth that the structure is everything. Someday,
perhaps he will put in a RJGK to explode that myth. :) :) Also,
Abhay still has some explaining left to do on these GHazals :)

> Don't see how it is the same thing. I do prefer Shailendra's couplet.
> Sahir's lyrics in this whole song sound like a lecture delivered from
> a lectern! Poetry should show rather than tell. No?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:). Interestingly enough the phrase for a GHazal composer is
'GHazal kehna'. :) :)

Later,
Ikram.

[Abhay Avachat]

In article <32EE93...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...

> More seriously, what is the problem with the "Aarzoo" Ghazal?
> Why has it been termed much-maligned on rmim?

No ! Not again !! :-)
This GHazal is worth "watching". It's tough to find what's good in this
tune. The scene is the icing on the cake. The MDs didn't have much clue
about how to tune the GHazal, but the director was twice as clueless
about where to insert the "wah wah"s. The whole thing is either very
funny and/or disgusting. Except ofcourse the voice of Rafi and the looks
of Sadhana, but sadly both of them couldn't save the song. Needless to
say this is a fav of Sami :-) and has been mentioned umpteen times
on this newsgroup. Belive me, people have not been very kind. :-) :-)

>> Of course, Abhay has sought to expolde the myth that there are typically
>> ghazal-ish tunes, sombre or invoking particular moods (It looks like he
>

> Tho' structure is important, content and thought presentation is

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> important too. Most of the ghazals (going out on a limb here, by
> using *most* ) coming out in various 'ghazal' albums may perhaps
> be qualified as structurally similar to the GHazal, but often
> violate the spirit of the 'GHazal'. IMHO, Abhay is in danger of
> creating the myth that the structure is everything. Someday,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> perhaps he will put in a RJGK to explode that myth. :) :) Also,
> Abhay still has some explaining left to do on these GHazals :)

Point noted. Actually that's why I included the two songs, which I
don't think as GHazals, but have a similar structure. This was done
to highlight the fact that, not every poem with a "two line format
with Radeef-Qafiyaa-like-rhyming" is GHazal. For a poem with such
a syntax to be a GHazal, what is needed is the semantic independence
of the individual stanzas. In other words each stanza needs to be
a Sher ! That's why in the definition it's the first requirement and
it's also written that "GHazal is a _collection_ of Shers.

This was discussed to some extent BEFORE the quiz too. I belive this
"complete semantic unit" thing introduces a certain subjectivity or
fuzziness in contrast to the crystal clear objectivity of the syntax.

It's easy to check if a poem is obeying the syntactical rules. It's
not always so straightforward to check whether every stanza obeys the
semantic rule.

Why this is so, needs a detailed analysis. I am very much going to do
that. Please wait for the relevant articles in coming ASAD series :-)

I would like to stress one thing again. The "semantic unit" funda
has nothing to do with the __topics__ of the Sher. This was one of
the myths I sought to explode.

And similarly I oppose your statement when you say that "content"
is important. It's not important to decide if a poem is GHazal.
It helps in deciding if the GHazal is good or bad. That's all.

And I also oppose "thought presentation" as a necessary criterion.
It helps in deciding the quality of the GHazal, but not whether the
poem in question is a GHazal or not. I have said in the discussion
before the quiz that, the styles have changed. The GHazals we hear
today in Mushaa'iras are vastly different in style. We hear GHazals
in the classical style and GHazals in ultra-modern style. GHazals
which are humourous and also GHazals which are about current social
issues.

We have come out of the classical age. GHazal is a no more restricted
to certain emotions. I particularly remember a GHazal recited in a
Mushaa'ira. Every Sher was funny, made you laugh. Just because it
was funny, doesn't disqualify it from being a GHazal ! (The reason
I remember this is - it was written in GHalib's zameen of "hota hai
shab-o-roz tamaashaa mere aage" !!!)

Based on "content and thought presentation" we may _like or dislike_
a GHazal. But we cannot rule out it being a GHazal.

More importantly, if you have any specific questions/objections to any
songs in the quiz, let's discuss it. This is the right time for
raising the objections, the quiz is still fresh. It will also take
care of "some explanations to do" :-) :-)

- Abhay.
Are my views Radical ?

[Surajit A. Bose]

In article <5cl4t3$3...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
vna...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Veena S Nayak) wrote:

: People who conduct these quizzes must

: have nothing else in their lives, no?

What does that say about those of us that participate in them?!

[Ikram Ahmed Khan]

Sorry for the delayed reply....

Abhay Avachat wrote:
> In article <32EE93...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...
> > More seriously, what is the problem with the "Aarzoo" Ghazal?
> > Why has it been termed much-maligned on rmim?
>
> No ! Not again !! :-)
> This GHazal is worth "watching". It's tough to find what's good in this
> tune. The scene is the icing on the cake. The MDs didn't have much clue
> about how to tune the GHazal, but the director was twice as clueless
> about where to insert the "wah wah"s. The whole thing is either very
> funny and/or disgusting. Except ofcourse the voice of Rafi and the looks
> of Sadhana, but sadly both of them couldn't save the song. Needless to
> say this is a fav of Sami :-) and has been mentioned umpteen times
> on this newsgroup. Belive me, people have not been very kind. :-) :-)
>

Ok. Using the now-famous "vazan - technique" on the above paragraph, all
I can find is that
a> "It's tough to find what's good in this tune"

b> The director is clueless about the picturization

c> It is a fav of Sami-bhai.

The only point then about the song is then a> and c>
For a> we have your whole RJGK as a defense.
But my *question* is *what* is wrong with the tune, {and I am
*really not* asking you to defend yourself on how you can give
an RJGK about ghazals with "innovative" tunes and then claim
that xyz tune is horrible. }

As for c> Sami-bhai, though an absolutely capital guy
{ Nice one, wot? ;)}
is hardly the person you turn to for asking about SJ-tune. Last I heard,
he had conceded that some tunes were passable :) :). But, he might
have been speaking about it from the GHazal perspective. What did he
have
to say??

As for b> what does one think of some really nice ghazals picturised
on Mehmood? Both the thought, the singer and the song get murdered
by his often hilarious and mostly offensive portrayals. :)
And this sequence was supposed to be funny too... Tho' probably not
in the sense of the wah-wahs :) :)

> And similarly I oppose your statement when you say that "content"
> is important. It's not important to decide if a poem is GHazal.
> It helps in deciding if the GHazal is good or bad. That's all.
>
> And I also oppose "thought presentation" as a necessary criterion.
> It helps in deciding the quality of the GHazal, but not whether the
> poem in question is a GHazal or not. I have said in the discussion
> before the quiz that, the styles have changed. The GHazals we hear
> today in Mushaa'iras are vastly different in style. We hear GHazals
> in the classical style and GHazals in ultra-modern style. GHazals
> which are humourous and also GHazals which are about current social
> issues.
>
> We have come out of the classical age. GHazal is a no more restricted
> to certain emotions. I particularly remember a GHazal recited in a
> Mushaa'ira. Every Sher was funny, made you laugh. Just because it
> was funny, doesn't disqualify it from being a GHazal ! (The reason
> I remember this is - it was written in GHalib's zameen of "hota hai
> shab-o-roz tamaashaa mere aage" !!!)
>
> Based on "content and thought presentation" we may _like or dislike_
> a GHazal. But we cannot rule out it being a GHazal.

> Are my views Radical ?

Not radical enough!! :)

Lemme phrase myself this way. Is somebody correct when he calls
"Telephone dhun meN hasne waali, melbourne machhli machalnewaali"
as a 'geet'?? My answer is that it is debatable to call it a 'geet'
lyrics-wise. But whatever words there are, it is sung to music
{ And what totally cool music, I might add :) :)}. So, should
Vividh Bhaarti be allowed to get away with 'agla geet jo aap
sunne jaa rahe haiN, film Hindustani se liya gaya hai'??

Now this is what I call totally rad stuff... :) :)

>
> More importantly, if you have any specific questions/objections to any
> songs in the quiz, let's discuss it. This is the right time for
> raising the objections, the quiz is still fresh. It will also take
> care of "some explanations to do" :-) :-)
>

I quote from your answers post - "I will start discussing these

things one by one and in more detail in coming days".

So, you do have more to say on your on answers post... more clarifications
and hence my reference to your further explanations...
It's great that we will get a chance to discuss some of these and other
issues in the ASAD series. :) :)

But let us talk about my questions to some of the songs in the quiz.
This is what made the post so long delayed. My site didn't have the
answers post and I had to search for your answers post

Let us take your reply for pyaar kiya toh darna kya...

Your position was "I contend that, here the repetition
achieves emphasis"

Do you have any other example where this emphasis method was
used?

Also, both koi humdum na raha and itna na mujhse tu pyaar baD.ha
seem to fit the 4-line mode in an easy manner rather than the couplet
mode. { Btw, 4-line == quatrain, right??}

eg.

itna na mujhse tu pyaar baD.haa
ke main ik baadal aawara
kaise kisi ka sahaara banoo
ke main kHud beghar bechaara

and

koi humdum na rahaa
koi sahaara na rahaa
hum kisi ke na rahey
koi hamaara na rahaa

For the itna na mujhse you cited the reason that the couplets
don't make complete sense. My q: which couplet?

Similarly you didn't like the rhyming for na jao saiNyaaN.
{Btw, it would have been a pretty long behr for a ghazal, huh?}
Where?? And where is the semantic unit not that complete.

And let's talk more about the semantic unit princi.
Your clue for the hai re song from Anuradha was

sooni meri beena, sangeet bina
sapno ki maala, murajhaa'e

Q here: Is this a she'r?? One complete semantic unit??
I am not very sure about this.

Now to the really radical stuff.
Can we have a GHazal in English?? Without calling
Satish's output bad { or tut-tutting about Ashok's
appreciation of it ;) }, one cannot have an "English"
Ghazal, mHo. Reason is that it is a form of poetry in the
Urdu/Persian language... And this is not because I wish
to be labelled a purist or any such thing. English poetry
is quite advanced enough to be considered in its own right,
without saying that it needs to borrow forms from any
other languages. And for the same reason, I am kinda
circumspect about 'sansaar se bhaage phirte ho'.
Excellent song. I like the "preaching" too. :) But calling
that a GHazal is needless..

It is really great that we have Irfan also questioning our
understanding and your ASAD series to bring us more knowledge
about GHazals. But, let's take some time out and bring
this RJGK to closure too.. :) :)

Later,
Ikram.
..............................................................
This post of mine deserved a .sig file :) :)

jhooT nahii bola maine, gopaalaa
jhooT hai toh pee le tu, Coca-cola
- PK Mishra in 'Latka dikha diya humne'{Hindustani}
...............................................................

[Kalyan]

In article <330391...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...

>
>Sorry for the delayed reply....

< And reignites the debate on ghazals >

I wouldn't want to get into the discussion of what's a ghazal and what's not
(let the experts decide that) but would like to make an observation.

If we go by the criteria used by Abhay for defining ghazals in RJGK 36 then most
Hindi film songs could be termed ghazals. Here's how.

Let's look at the generally accepted characteristics (roughly speaking) of a
ghazal.

1 Qaafiya
2 Radeef
3 Same Meter
4 Independent shers
5 2 line couplets
6 Odd number of shers (??)
7 Topic is love etc.
8 They may have maqta and matla.

etc.

RJGK 36 (and some of the earlier discussions) eliminate some of the above
constraints.
As per the quiz Radeef need not be there. Out goes 2.
With ghazals involving Hindi it's difficult to ascertain meter.
Am I right? If so, out goes 3.
Shers need not be independent. In fact we are told most shers in
Hindi film ghazals are not. Besides it's a subjective issue. In any case
we have musallil and gair-musallil (sp?) ghazals. Out goes 4.
No. 6 and 7 are largely irrelevant and obsolete in the modern era.
No. 8 is optional.

That leaves only criteria 1 and 5. That is ghazals have 2 line couplets
and they rhyme or basically anything with a "ab a'b a''b" pattern. A large number
of Hindi/Urdu film songs and Hindi poetry (or English songs and poetry
or those from any regional language for that matter) follow the above pattern.
Are they all ghazals or is the idea too liberal?

Regards,
Kalyan

[Abhay Avachat]

In article <5e0dlt$f...@lana.zippo.com>, kkol...@us.oracle.com says...

I am sorry, if I sound a bit harsh here. But I don't quite
see how some of your opinions have been arrived at. They range
from "very wrong" to "plain absurd".

>If we go by the criteria used by Abhay for defining ghazals in RJGK 36 then most
>Hindi film songs could be termed ghazals. Here's how.

And here is how, there are major mistakes in your arguments ...

>Let's look at the generally accepted characteristics (roughly speaking) of a
>ghazal.
>
>1 Qaafiya
>2 Radeef
>3 Same Meter
>4 Independent shers
>5 2 line couplets
>6 Odd number of shers (??)
>7 Topic is love etc.
>8 They may have maqta and matla.
>
>etc.
>
>RJGK 36 (and some of the earlier discussions) eliminate some of the above
>constraints.
>As per the quiz Radeef need not be there. Out goes 2.

Agreed. (BTW, this is more of an exception. The Radeef is generally not
ignored and in most of the GHazals it IS present. But still, it's
omission is very much allowed.)

>With ghazals involving Hindi it's difficult to ascertain meter.
>Am I right? If so, out goes 3.

NO. You are wrong. What I say is ... "Why apply the rules of URDU
meter to HINDI songs" ? Let's go over this again. Here are my views.

1. Why the meter should be taken from Urdu for other languages ?
I think, there are subtle differences in the way the meter is counted
in Urdu and Marathi (and Marathi meter laws are derived from Sanskrit,
so I suspect, we can generalize this to many Sanskrit based languages).
2. Meter is very strictly follwoed by most of the poets who write Urdu
GHazals. There are some who wrote "aazaad shaayari". Whether the world
accepts their work as GHazals, remains to be seen. I support them to
some extent.

Now, what it means is, the Hindi Movie songs featured in the quiz may
not follwo the laws of URDU Poetry, but that doesn't mean they are not
at all in ANY meter. In fact, this has been discussed off-line with
Irfan and many ALUPers. I have come across vastly different opinons, as
to what rules should be followed for Hindi songs and in TODAY's world.
But it seems that SOME METER would do to most.

Don't assume that I had no concern whatsoever for meter when I
selected the songs. In fact can you tell me which song has faults with
respect to meter and where ? There might be some such faults,
please point them out.

>Shers need not be independent. In fact we are told most shers in
>Hindi film ghazals are not. Besides it's a subjective issue. In any case
>we have musallil and gair-musallil (sp?) ghazals. Out goes 4.

Errrrrrrrrr ? BIG ERRRRRRRR ??? I am really not enjoying this.
On what basis do you say that Shers need not be independent ???
You are violating THE FIRST criterion !!! Before you start shooting
it wise to check if you have the right kind of bullets and you are
firing at the right target.

Your first mistake is using "Musalsil" GHazals as a support to
your argument. Musalsil just means that, all the shers are on
the same topic. It does NOT mean that they are NOT independent.
They HAVE to be independent -- SEMANTICALLY. Each sher is a poem
in itself. It's just that each poem is about the same topic.
Consider the "chupake chupake" GHazal. It has shers which are
independent but on the same topic. Independent, here, does NOT
mean that they have to talk about different things. Hope it's
clear now.

Please do not make such assertions. It unnecessarily creates
confusion. I almost felt that, you are twisting my words.
I hope I am wrong on this.

Secondly, about subjectivity. Again, I am not sure why you
are saying this ? All that I said was, sometimes, it gets a bit
tricky. There are some shers (very few, less than 10% say) about
which different people will have different opinions about it's
semantic independence. But that doesn't mean "who cares about
semantic independence" ! Please !!

Removing semantic independence will kill the GHazal !!
Anyone is free to go ahead and attempt it, but I oppose my
name being dragged into it.

I am totally perplexed now. You use my RJGK to support your
misconceptions. But in the answers post, I clearly stated that
"semantic independence" is something that cannot be violated.

>No. 6 and 7 are largely irrelevant and obsolete in the modern era.

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly to something !! BTW, it's not just
in modern era. Love has not been the only topic even in the old days.
And for number of Shers, well, that was the first convention to go.

>No. 8 is optional.

Now that's too much. Just too much. Where the hell did you get
the notion that Matla is "optional" ??? If you don't know something,
then ask. Don't assert.

>That leaves only criteria 1 and 5.

Well, you may yourself want to recheck what is left and what is not.
I am too upset to do that now.

> That is ghazals have 2 line couplets
>and they rhyme or basically anything with a "ab a'b a''b" pattern. A large number
>of Hindi/Urdu film songs and Hindi poetry (or English songs and poetry
>or those from any regional language for that matter) follow the above pattern.

I am sure there are a large number of GHazals in Hindi movies.
Yes, not just by your definition but even by the normal definition.

>Are they all ghazals or is the idea too liberal?

The fact is, you got a lot of things wrong. Please correct yourself.

- Abhay.
Amazed, upset, angry and feeling sad.

[Snehal B. Oza]

In <330391...@raleigh.ibm.com> Ikram Ahmed Khan <iak...@raleigh.ibm.com> writes:

>Can we have a GHazal in English?? Without calling
>Satish's output bad { or tut-tutting about Ashok's
>appreciation of it ;) }, one cannot have an "English"
>Ghazal, mHo. Reason is that it is a form of poetry in the
>Urdu/Persian language... And this is not because I wish
>to be labelled a purist or any such thing. English poetry
>is quite advanced enough to be considered in its own right,
>without saying that it needs to borrow forms from any
>other languages. And for the same reason, I am kinda
>circumspect about 'sansaar se bhaage phirte ho'.
>Excellent song. I like the "preaching" too. :) But calling
>that a GHazal is needless..

May be I didn't follow this para completely, still let me ask this question. Are
you saying gazals cannot exist outside Urdu/Persian world ? Or let me rephrase:
Do you think, whatever we call gazal in Hindi, Gujarati etc. can't be called
gazals at all ?

Snehal

[Surajit A. Bose]

In article <330391...@raleigh.ibm.com>, iak...@raleigh.ibm.com wrote:

> Can we have a GHazal in English?? Without calling
> Satish's output bad { or tut-tutting about Ashok's
> appreciation of it ;) }, one cannot have an "English"
> Ghazal, mHo. Reason is that it is a form of poetry in the
> Urdu/Persian language... And this is not because I wish
> to be labelled a purist or any such thing. English poetry
> is quite advanced enough to be considered in its own right,
> without saying that it needs to borrow forms from any
> other languages.

actually.....some 20th century american poets have written ghazals....even
before satish...and some of their efforts are at least as good as
satish's.....you're right, english poetry doesn't "need to borrow forms,"
but poetry doesn't do things out of logical necessity.....rather, out of
irrational desire......

cheers
s

[Preeti Ranjan Panda]

Abhay Avachat (ava...@informix.com) wrote:
[...]
: Now, what it means is, the Hindi Movie songs featured in the quiz may

: not follwo the laws of URDU Poetry, but that doesn't mean they are not
: at all in ANY meter. In fact, this has been discussed off-line with
: Irfan and many ALUPers. I have come across vastly different opinons, as
: to what rules should be followed for Hindi songs and in TODAY's world.
: But it seems that SOME METER would do to most.

[...]

I have a question: how does one ascertain the meter of a (hindi/urdu)
poem? Are the rules too complicated? If not, it would be really useful
if someone can outline a few basic steps.

thanks,
Preeti

[Ikram Ahmed Khan]

Surajit A. Bose wrote:
>
> In article <330391...@raleigh.ibm.com>, iak...@raleigh.ibm.com wrote:

> > Can we have a GHazal in English??

{ and some more related thoughts which seem to be of a rather 'narrow'
nature. I stress the word *seem* :)}

>
> actually.....some 20th century american poets have written ghazals....even
> before satish...and some of their efforts are at least as good as
> satish's.....you're right, english poetry doesn't "need to borrow forms,"
> but poetry doesn't do things out of logical necessity.....rather, out of
> irrational desire......

Great line, Surajit!! Lemme answer Snehal's point here. Do you appreciate
the gujaraati or marathi or any other language poetry any less if it is
proven to you that it is not a GHazal? Answer is probably no. My point is
that it sometimes is artificial and needless to try and breakdown an
art form in xyz language to conform to an art form in abc language. However,
at times, this will lead to an enjoyable intellectual exercise... but that
exercise may lead you in the wrong direction of evaluating xyz's poetry forms
based on the rules in abc language. Dangerous thing, acc. to me.

Later,
Ikram.
>
> cheers
> s

[Ikram Ahmed Khan]

Abhay Avachat wrote:
> - Abhay.
> Amazed, upset, angry and feeling sad.

You should not feel the last three at least, Abhay.
The objective for your RJGK ( and I am attibuting words/thoughts
to your mouth/head) was to provoke interest in 'GHazals'.
It has. It has also brought out some measure of interest
in what constitutes a 'GHazal'. I personally believe that this
discussion is a more fitting tribute to your RJGK than the
results or even the number of participants......

Later,
Ikram.

[Harish Suvarna]

Kalyan wrote:
>
> In article <330391...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...
> >
> >Sorry for the delayed reply....
>

>

> 1 Qaafiya
> 2 Radeef
> 3 Same Meter
> 4 Independent shers
> 5 2 line couplets
> 6 Odd number of shers (??)
> 7 Topic is love etc.
> 8 They may have maqta and matla.
>

So we are trying to characterise Ghazal solely based on
syntax/structure. Is'nt there a singing style when combined
with the above syntax/struxture results in Ghazal?

This kind of syntactic poetry is always present in some other
languages too (going by some posts) but never attained the
status of Ghazals as in Urdu.

Even though 'Koi Hum Dum' 'Haaye re oh din kyona' do meet the
above <=8 criteria, I was kind of not fully bought into calling them
Ghazals.

The other folllowing aspects occur tome to make a Ghazal

1) singing the same line multiple times in multiple tunes. Especially
the syntactic rule of 2 lines makes it easy to do this. If there are
just 2 lines in a sher, it is easy to highlight this aspect. Like in
hindustaani classical there are hardly 1 or 2 lines and the singer
presents them in for almost an hour. But there is toomuch emphasis
on raag sanchaar/vistaar. In Ghazal this aspect is curtailed
to some extent and is sung. There by we differentiate from normal
'Geets'.

2) Is Ghazal meant for expressing strong emotions only? Can there be REALLY
a Ghazal in happy/light mood? To me Ghazal can not be light.

3) How good are the shers in the Ghazal and how the shers are related
to other shers in the ghazal. Normally if all shers are related,
it is more focussing and easily appreciable as in chupke chupke raat
din.

--
Harish Suvarna
su...@mti.sgi.com

[Abhay Avachat]

In article <330391...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...

I hope you will excuse me for not talking about the ghazal from Aarzoo.
We have more important matters to take care of.

>I quote from your answers post - "I will start discussing these
>things one by one and in more detail in coming days".
>
>So, you do have more to say on your on answers post... more clarifications
>and hence my reference to your further explanations...
>It's great that we will get a chance to discuss some of these and other
>issues in the ASAD series. :) :)
>
>But let us talk about my questions to some of the songs in the quiz.
>This is what made the post so long delayed. My site didn't have the
>answers post and I had to search for your answers post

To me the main issues which need to be fully discussed are the issues
about Meter and Semantic Unit. Both are (were) planned in the ASAD
series. But since you have raised questions about Semantic Unit here,
there is no harm in discussing them right now.

>Let us take your reply for pyaar kiya toh darna kya...
>
>Your position was "I contend that, here the repetition
>achieves emphasis"
>
>Do you have any other example where this emphasis method was
>used?

I will give you some examples after a few sentences. But before that, I wish
to ask this very seriously. Do I really need to give an example ?? Can
a way of expression be unique and still valid ? If a poet comes up with a
new way of expression (mind you, I am not saying new RULE regarding
GHazals) or a new simile etc then what's the problem in accepting it ? In fact
he should be congratulated for being inventive.

Secondly, if you need support of Sher A for "pyar kiya to" then on what basis
will you accept Sher A ? Would you need another Sher B to lend validity to
Sher A ? It's obvious where this is leading.

Thirdly, repetition of a phrase to achive emphasis is quite common, isn't it ?
In all the languages. We many times repeat something just to stress it.

If you still aren't convinced and if you must have examples, then here are
a couple of them from the top of my head. I am sure an exahaustive search
will reveal many more such examples. BTW, I am sure the 1st of the following
shers has been heard by many.

By Amir Minai --
wo bedardi se sar kaate, 'Amir', aur maiN kahu use
huzoor aahista aahista, janaab aahista aahista !!

Not only the Radeef - Aahista Aahista - is a repitition, but here you have
the complete phrase also repeated. Isn't the effect beautiful ? Doesn't it
stress that the Shayar really wants it to be dones delicately, slowly ?
Tell me frankly, when you heard this one the first time, did you object to
the repitition ?? Are you objecting to it now ??

Here is another, this time by Jigar Muradabadi
ai muhatasib na feNk, mere muhatasib na feNk
zaalim ! sharaab hai, are zaalim ! sharaab hai

What do you call this ? It has repitition in BOTH the misras.
I found this sher really good. Very good in conveying the emphasis.

Note that in "pyar kiya to darna kya", the repetition is done after inserting
the word "jab". Without "jab" it would have sounded ... umm ... crude.

I hope this is settled now. Let me know.

>Also, both koi humdum na raha and itna na mujhse tu pyaar baD.ha
>seem to fit the 4-line mode in an easy manner rather than the couplet
>mode. { Btw, 4-line == quatrain, right??}

There are many GHazals, which due to their intra-sher rhyming can be
considered as fitting into some 4-line mode. This was discussed before the
quiz and was mentioned in the quiz. I am not at all confident about the
structure of the 4-line mode. I am interested in GHazal and as long as
the song can be considered as a GHazal, it's fine with me. It may or may
not fit any other form.

There are other songs in the quiz too. But since the quiz is dubious to you,
I can mention non-filmi GHazals, from proper Urdu literature. I am giving
only one sher each from these two GHazals, but you can notice the intra-sher
rhyming and how it MAY fit some 4-line form. If you want, I can post the
entire GHazals. Plese let me know.

First from a GHazal whose Matla has been taken as an example in the definition
of GHazal post found in the RMIM FAQ. (poet - Muztar Akabarabaadi)
apani zulphoN ko rukh_se hataa lijiye
mera zauq-e-nazar aazamaa lijiye
aaj ghar_se chalaa huN yahiN soch_kar
ya to nazare haiN, ya nazaaraa nahiN

And this one from an absolute masterpiece by Momin
kabhi hum_me tum_me bhi chaah thi,
kabhi hum_se tum_se bhi raah thi
kabhi ham bhi tum bhi the aashnaa
tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho

I am sure many must have heard this GHazal. Did you have any objections then ??
Do you still have any objections ??

>eg.
>
>itna na mujhse tu pyaar baD.haa
> ke main ik baadal aawara
>kaise kisi ka sahaara banoo
> ke main kHud beghar bechaara
>
>and
>
>koi humdum na rahaa
> koi sahaara na rahaa
>hum kisi ke na rahey
> koi hamaara na rahaa

So you see, just because it CAN fit into a 4-line form doesn't make a poem
as a non-GHazal. Let me know if this sounds convincing.

>For the itna na mujhse you cited the reason that the couplets
>don't make complete sense. My q: which couplet?

Many stanzas of this song don't sound as a complete semantic unit to me.
Before I explain this, I need to clarify certain things. My objection is
based on one fact. Unless you hear the first stanza, many of the stanzas
don't sound semantically complete. That does not mean, repeating for
emphasis :-), DOES NOT mean the stanzas don't make any sense themselves.

To be completely understood, the following stanzas need the very first stanza.

1. is liye tujh_se pyaar karuN, ke tu ik baadal aawara ...
2. o neel gagan ke deewaane, tu pyaar na mera pehchaane
3. kyuN pyaar me tu naadaan bane, ik baadal ka armaan bane
4. mujhe ek jagah aaraam nahiN ... (to some extent)

Remember that he says in the first stanza that he is Baadal and many stanzas
revolve around NOT THE CONCEPT OF BAADAL but that FACT THAT HE HAS CALLED
HIMSELF A BAADAL ___BEFORE___.

In other words, if you DELETE the first stanza, then these referencing
stanzas don't make much sense. Although some meaning can be brought out of
them, it's clearly a different thing than the meaning extracted with the
first stanza present.

So it matters if the first stanza is there or not there. Therfore the stanzas
violate the Semantic Independence rule.

Do you agree ? I sincerely request you to give some thought to what I have
said. I may not have been very lucid, but I hope I have conveyed my opinions.

>Similarly you didn't like the rhyming for na jao saiNyaaN.
>{Btw, it would have been a pretty long behr for a ghazal, huh?}
>Where?? And where is the semantic unit not that complete.

What do you think about the Behr of the 2 intra-rhyming shers I mentioned
a few paragraphs above ? Pretty long Behr, huh ? :-)

As for the rhyming, well I thought I said that in the answers post.
Ashok's reply was also included. Do the words "padungi" and "marungi"
rhyme the way Qaafiyaa is supposed to rhyme ? I doubt.

What do you think ?

>And let's talk more about the semantic unit princi.
>Your clue for the hai re song from Anuradha was
>
>sooni meri beena, sangeet bina
>sapno ki maala, murajhaa'e
>
>Q here: Is this a she'r?? One complete semantic unit??
>I am not very sure about this.

I am sure it is. It's kind of cryptic, but it doesn't need any OTHER stanza
to say what it wants to say. Both the misras contain similes about how s/he
is sad. One may not like the WAY it's being said, but then we are not comparing
the QUALITY of the Ghazals, right ?

About English GHazals and GHazals in other languages we will talk some
other time. It's been a long post. And that has not been the main topic here.

> And for the same reason, I am kinda
>circumspect about 'sansaar se bhaage phirte ho'.
>Excellent song. I like the "preaching" too. :) But calling
>that a GHazal is needless..

It has never been a question of "need" ! The point is, it is a GHazal.
What are your objections, except that it's not in Urdu ? The GHazal is
true in "spirit" of GHazal. ---- Now that's another statement which
many would demand an explanation ! I will provide. I will. But let's
first get the RJGK to "closure" as you have been saying :-)

Well Ikram, I have honestly tried to answer your objections and questions.
Please let me know if you are satisfied and if not then what more
explanations I need to do :-) :-)

- Abhay.
I ENJOY ___such___ discussions.

[Abhay Avachat]

In article <330391...@raleigh.ibm.com>, Ikram says...

I hope you will excuse me for not talking about the ghazal from Aarzoo.
We have more important matters to take care of.

>I quote from your answers post - "I will start discussing these
>things one by one and in more detail in coming days".
>
>So, you do have more to say on your on answers post... more clarifications
>and hence my reference to your further explanations...
>It's great that we will get a chance to discuss some of these and other
>issues in the ASAD series. :) :)
>
>But let us talk about my questions to some of the songs in the quiz.
>This is what made the post so long delayed. My site didn't have the
>answers post and I had to search for your answers post

To me the main issues which need to be fully discussed are the issues

about Meter and Semantic Unit. Both are (were) planned in the ASAD
series. But since you have raised questions about Semantic Unit here,
there is no harm in discussing them right now.

>Let us take your reply for pyaar kiya toh darna kya...

>
>Your position was "I contend that, here the repetition
>achieves emphasis"
>
>Do you have any other example where this emphasis method was
>used?

I will give you some examples after a few sentences. But before that, I wish

>Also, both koi humdum na raha and itna na mujhse tu pyaar baD.ha
>seem to fit the 4-line mode in an easy manner rather than the couplet
>mode. { Btw, 4-line == quatrain, right??}

There are many GHazals, which due to their intra-sher rhyming can be

considered as fitting into some 4-line mode. This was discussed before the
quiz and was mentioned in the quiz. I am not at all confident about the
structure of the 4-line mode. I am interested in GHazal and as long as
the song can be considered as a GHazal, it's fine with me. It may or may
not fit any other form.

There are other songs in the quiz too. But since the quiz is dubious to you,
I can mention non-filmi GHazals, from proper Urdu literature. I am giving
only one sher each from these two GHazals, but you can notice the intra-sher
rhyming and how it MAY fit some 4-line form. If you want, I can post the
entire GHazals. Plese let me know.

First from a GHazal whose Matla has been taken as an example in the definition
of GHazal post found in the RMIM FAQ. (poet - Muztar Akabarabaadi)
apani zulphoN ko rukh_se hataa lijiye
mera zauq-e-nazar aazamaa lijiye
aaj ghar_se chalaa huN yahiN soch_kar
ya to nazare haiN, ya nazaaraa nahiN

And this one from an absolute masterpiece by Momin
kabhi hum_me tum_me bhi chaah thi,
kabhi hum_se tum_se bhi raah thi
kabhi ham bhi tum bhi the aashnaa
tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho

I am sure many must have heard this GHazal. Did you have any objections then ??
Do you still have any objections ??

>eg.

>
>itna na mujhse tu pyaar baD.haa
> ke main ik baadal aawara
>kaise kisi ka sahaara banoo
> ke main kHud beghar bechaara
>
>and
>
>koi humdum na rahaa
> koi sahaara na rahaa
>hum kisi ke na rahey
> koi hamaara na rahaa

So you see, just because it CAN fit into a 4-line form doesn't make a poem

as a non-GHazal. Let me know if this sounds convincing.

>For the itna na mujhse you cited the reason that the couplets
>don't make complete sense. My q: which couplet?

Many stanzas of this song don't sound as a complete semantic unit to me.

Before I explain this, I need to clarify certain things. My objection is
based on one fact. Unless you hear the first stanza, many of the stanzas
don't sound semantically complete. That does not mean, repeating for
emphasis :-), DOES NOT mean the stanzas don't make any sense themselves.

To be completely understood, the following stanzas need the very first stanza.

1. is liye tujh_se pyaar karuN, ke tu ik baadal aawara ...
2. o neel gagan ke deewaane, tu pyaar na mera pehchaane
3. kyuN pyaar me tu naadaan bane, ik baadal ka armaan bane
4. mujhe ek jagah aaraam nahiN ... (to some extent)

Remember that he says in the first stanza that he is Baadal and many stanzas
revolve around NOT THE CONCEPT OF BAADAL but that FACT THAT HE HAS CALLED
HIMSELF A BAADAL ___BEFORE___.

In other words, if you DELETE the first stanza, then these referencing
stanzas don't make much sense. Although some meaning can be brought out of
them, it's clearly a different thing than the meaning extracted with the
first stanza present.

So it matters if the first stanza is there or not there. Therfore the stanzas
violate the Semantic Independence rule.

Do you agree ? I sincerely request you to give some thought to what I have
said. I may not have been very lucid, but I hope I have conveyed my opinions.

>Similarly you didn't like the rhyming for na jao saiNyaaN.
>{Btw, it would have been a pretty long behr for a ghazal, huh?}
>Where?? And where is the semantic unit not that complete.

What do you think about the Behr of the 2 intra-rhyming shers I mentioned

a few paragraphs above ? Pretty long Behr, huh ? :-)

As for the rhyming, well I thought I said that in the answers post.
Ashok's reply was also included. Do the words "padungi" and "marungi"
rhyme the way Qaafiyaa is supposed to rhyme ? I doubt.

What do you think ?

>And let's talk more about the semantic unit princi.

>Your clue for the hai re song from Anuradha was
>
>sooni meri beena, sangeet bina
>sapno ki maala, murajhaa'e
>
>Q here: Is this a she'r?? One complete semantic unit??
>I am not very sure about this.

I am sure it is. It's kind of cryptic, but it doesn't need any OTHER stanza

to say what it wants to say. Both the misras contain similes about how s/he
is sad. One may not like the WAY it's being said, but then we are not comparing
the QUALITY of the Ghazals, right ?

About English GHazals and GHazals in other languages we will talk some
other time. It's been a long post. And that has not been the main topic here.

> And for the same reason, I am kinda

>circumspect about 'sansaar se bhaage phirte ho'.
>Excellent song. I like the "preaching" too. :) But calling
>that a GHazal is needless..

It has never been a question of "need" ! The point is, it is a GHazal.

[Archana]

In article <5e2ifh$j...@lana.zippo.com>, ava...@informix.com says...
>

Now, I don't know much about ghazals and the so called 4 line form but
I would guess that in the 4 line form, the second and the fourth line would
rhyme (as in english poetry). I don't see how these would fit the 4 line form.
Please correct me if my interpretation of the 4 line form is way off the mark :-)
Thanks.

-Archana

[Abhay Avachat]

In article <5e2n22$t...@lana.zippo.com>, Archana says...

>Now, I don't know much about ghazals and the so called 4 line form but
>I would guess that in the 4 line form, the second and the fourth line would
>rhyme (as in english poetry). I don't see how these would fit the 4 line form.
>Please correct me if my interpretation of the 4 line form is way off the mark :-)

I don't think you are way off the mark at all. In the 4-line forms I know
the second and the 4th line very much rhymes. One such form is Rubaai. (With
additional constraints, yes, but the 2nd and 4th lines do rhyme). But
that's a single-stanza poem by itself. In a multi-stanza poem, the rhyming is
usually in the second and 4th line. But my knowledge is limited in these
forms, and hence I assumed there MIGHT be some 4-line form, which has a
rhyming scheme like aaab or aabc. The reason for my assumtion was the
discussion before and during the quiz and also that such schemes do not
look illogical. The songs from the quiz, which have intra-sher rhyming,
may fit some such forms.

But the main reason for my mentioning the specific shers was to highlight
that intra-sher rhyming is not uncommon in Urdu Poetry. Also the examples
Ikram chose from the quiz do NOT fit the 4-line form where 2nd and 4th lines
rhyme. (The specific stanzas he chose do fit, but that's not true for the
entire song). So I assumed that the discussion was about forms like aaab
and aabc etc.

The requirement of 2nd and 4th line rhyming with each other is not satisfied
by any song in the quiz. (For a sher or two it might be true, but not for
the complete song). It's also too much to expect from a poem which can be
considered as GHazal !! To fit into GHazal as well as such a form would
require ALL the shers to be candidate for Matlas :-) Not easy to meet :-)

Hence the examples.

- Abhay.
I wish I knew more about other forms of poetry ...

[Kalyan]

In article <5e0jhj$1...@lana.zippo.com>, ava...@informix.com says that he is...

> Amazed, upset, angry and feeling sad

Same here. Agreed there were mistakes in my previous post but I don't think
there was anything to make one angry, upset or sad. I have never pretended
to be an expert in ghazals so one shouldn't be amazed at my ignorance :)

To avoid further unpleasantness I'll avoid making direct comments but
include extracts from previous posts (by Abhay) that might have caused the
confusion. As an aside I feel RMIM needs to lighten up. Nobody is
here to discredit, misinterpret anybody (atleast voluntarily), score
points etc. Also if you have any opinions mail me as I don't plan to
read RMIM for a while. Because of the extracts the post is long. You
have been warned :)

>
>
>>With ghazals involving Hindi it's difficult to ascertain meter.
>>Am I right? If so, out goes 3.
>
>NO. You are wrong. What I say is ... "Why apply the rules of URDU
>meter to HINDI songs" ? Let's go over this again. Here are my views.

I was referring to your earlier reference to muktachand (sp?) ghazals.
Here's an extract:

***** Extract begins *******
I understand your views. I am not denying the importance of meter. It gives
a precision to the defn and more imp a rhythm to the poetry. There is no
question in my mind about the importance. But, a meter doesn't make a good
poetry. There may be a few faults of meter with a GHazal, but the shers,
let's say are great. Will we accept it as a GHazal ? Strictly speaking NO.
But why ?? To me
shaayari kyaa hai ? dili-jajbaat ka izhaar hai
dil agar bekaar hai, to shaayari bekaar hai !
The rules are not religious dictates, and even they have been challenged. So
why not challenge the rules of meter ? Who made them ? Apart from rhythm,
it's the traditions which kept the rules of meter. The rules of Urdu GHazal,
come from Arabic and were first formulated by Hazrat Khalil Ahmed Basri. They
have been extended afterwards. Of course, the basis was scientific and for
rhythm mainly. Now, the challenge to meter comes from the idea that - the
thoughts and emotions, the way of presentation etc is more important than
counting ! The same idea which supports Muktachhand poetry.

Second, meter is not the only source rhythm. Unmetered poetry can be rhythmic
and lyrical too. It also means that the existing rules of meter need not be
exhaustive.

Third, many GHazals esp the filmi ones, are not structly in Urdu. Even in
Urdu Mushaairas, we hear GHazals which are strictly not in Urdu. (They are
maybe in Hindusthani, but I don't want to talk about liguistics.) Many times,
we hear GHazals in pure Hindi. Why apply the rules of Urdu meters here ?
Well, I have read scholars dismissing a Marathi poem as non-ghazal because
it doesn't follow the rules of Urdu meter ! (for Marathi knowing people, it
was a Ghazal by no other than Mangesh Padgaonkar !). I really don't know,
how to argue with these scholars ! As for the Urdu GHazal, well, there have
been experiments with GHazals not following rules of meter to the dot. If
this is acceptable or not, only future will tell. As language/poetry CANNOT
be dictated. It evolves on its own.

****** Extract ends ************

>But it seems that SOME METER would do to most.

^^^^

Not sure what SOME means. Is it something like approximate?
In any case I think most poetry follows "some" kind of meter.

>You are violating THE FIRST criterion !!! Before you start shooting
>it wise to check if you have the right kind of bullets and you are
>firing at the right target.

I don't like the shooting analogy at all :) Nobody is here to get you.
I was just trying to clarify things. A rereading of my post would clarify
that.

>
>Please do not make such assertions. It unnecessarily creates
>confusion. I almost felt that, you are twisting my words.
>I hope I am wrong on this.

You are. It was simply a mistake on my part. Here's another
extract that might have caused the confusion.

***** Begin extract ******

This brings us to perhaps the most important fact. And a one which is most
of the times ignored !! A Sher has to be a complete semantic unit. A poem
in itself. Will all the GHazals pass this test ?? I doubt. But this, IMHO,
introduces a bit a of subjectivity. Many times you need the context to
understand a Sher. Should we permit this ? This is an intersting topic and
will throw at us some questions which are difficult to answer. But we are
perhaps drifting away from RMIM.

***** End extract *******

>Now that's too much. Just too much. Where the hell did you get
>the notion that Matla is "optional" ??? If you don't know something,

Wow, that's anger :) I might have been confused by the last clue
in the quiz (the bazaar song).

>- Abhay.
> Amazed, upset, angry and feeling sad.
>

Regards,
Kalyan
Just tired.

[Irfan Moinuddin]

On 14 Feb 1997, Kalyan wrote:
> >>With ghazals involving Hindi it's difficult to ascertain meter.
> >>Am I right? If so, out goes 3.
> >
> >NO. You are wrong. What I say is ... "Why apply the rules of URDU
> >meter to HINDI songs" ? Let's go over this again. Here are my views.
>

> I was referring to your earlier reference to muktachand (sp?) ghazals.
> Here's an extract:
>
> ***** Extract begins *******

Extract deleted because my e-mail system wouldn't let me post with such
a large portion of "included mail". Extract can be found in Kalyan's
reply to Abhay's fiery criticism. Basically, it catalogued Abhay's
dislike for meter.

>
> ****** Extract ends ************
>

I have to clarify here that I had a hand in Abhay's conversion towards
accepting meter as a necessary and valid criterion in the classification
of ghazals. After my strong condemnation of his lack of discussion and
consideration of meter in RJGK36 along with off-line discussions,
Abhay has become a proponent of meter, although he claims to
like aazaad poetry equally well. So, the above extract is the "before"
picture and Abhay's criticism of your (Kalyan's) post is the
"after"-conversion picture.

>
> >But it seems that SOME METER would do to most.

> ^^^^
>
> Not sure what SOME means. Is it something like approximate?
> In any case I think most poetry follows "some" kind of meter.

By "some", what he means is that if the ghazal is written in urdu then it
must follow urdu meter, if it is written in english then it can be written
in either urdu or english meter and if it is written in hindi then it can
be written in urdu or hindi meter

> >Now that's too much. Just too much. Where the hell did you get
> >the notion that Matla is "optional" ??? If you don't know something,
>

> Wow, that's anger :) I might have been confused by the last clue
> in the quiz (the bazaar song).
>

Actually, I am not completely comfortable with the matla rule.
I think it is important, both in terms of structure and aesthetic content.
But to make it a necessity is a bit too strict. I don't think all of
the ghazals in Diwan-e-Ghalib follow this rule either or other poets
for that matter.

Irfan

>
> >- Abhay.
> > Amazed, upset, angry and feeling sad.
> >
>

> Regards,
> Kalyan
> Just tired.
>
>
>

*********************************
Irfan Moinuddin
University of Illinois
College of Medicine

-------------------------------------------
http://icarus.uic.edu/~imoinu1/irfsome.html
-------------------------------------------
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
MInA, qadah, paimAna, khum, sAghar, sabU, dil hI to haI
AaE na kyuN is jAm sE bAdA ki bU, dil hI to haI
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
*********************************

[Archana]

In article <Pine.SOL.3.93.97021...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>, Irfan says...

>>
>> >But it seems that SOME METER would do to most.

>> ^^^^
>>
>> Not sure what SOME means. Is it something like approximate?
>> In any case I think most poetry follows "some" kind of meter.
>
>By "some", what he means is that if the ghazal is written in urdu then it
>must follow urdu meter, if it is written in english then it can be written
>in either urdu or english meter and if it is written in hindi then it can
>be written in urdu or hindi meter

Guys, would someone please put down the actual urdu and hindi meter rules. I
am sure many other unenlightened souls (like me) would love that. Thanks, in
anticipation

-Archana

[Abhay Avachat]

In article <Pine.SOL.3.93.97021...@icarus.cc.uic.edu>, Irfan says...
>

>On 14 Feb 1997, Kalyan wrote:
>
>> I was referring to your earlier reference to muktachand (sp?) ghazals.
>> Here's an extract:
>>
>> ***** Extract begins *******
>
>Extract deleted because my e-mail system wouldn't let me post with such
>a large portion of "included mail". Extract can be found in Kalyan's
>reply to Abhay's fiery criticism. Basically, it catalogued Abhay's
>dislike for meter.

Actually, Irfanbhai, no. I have no dislike for meter. I never had.
The whole thing started because I wrote that traditions are changing
and GHazals are being written without following the rules of meter.
You opposed it. So I wrote something from which the extract was taken
by Kalyan. It does not have my dislike for meter. It has some of my
views and justifications for "why meter rules cannot be challenged".
This is similar to your questioning the necessity of Matla. I too
understand the importance of meter, but I see no wrong in opposing
the dogmatic application of meter. This is quite different than the
"dislike for meter".

>I have to clarify here that I had a hand in Abhay's conversion towards
>accepting meter as a necessary and valid criterion in the classification
>of ghazals. After my strong condemnation of his lack of discussion and
>consideration of meter in RJGK36 along with off-line discussions,
>Abhay has become a proponent of meter, although he claims to
>like aazaad poetry equally well. So, the above extract is the "before"
>picture and Abhay's criticism of your (Kalyan's) post is the
>"after"-conversion picture.

:-) :-)
I respect your knowledge and opinions, Irfan. They have influenced my
thinking. But I am not "converted", I am the same one who wrote the
following "before converison" ....

Extract from the definition post I made quite a few years ago ...

Both the lines in the Sher *MUST* be of
same 'Beher'. And all the Sher's in one Ghazal *MUST* be of the
same 'Beher'.

And from the very SAME post from which Kalyan took an extract ...

I am not denying the importance of meter. It gives
a precision to the defn and more imp a rhythm to the poetry. There is no
question in my mind about the importance. But, a meter doesn't make a good
poetry. There may be a few faults of meter with a GHazal, but the shers,
let's say are great. Will we accept it as a GHazal ? Strictly speaking NO.

If one takes an extract out of the context, any meaning can be attached
to it. So which is real me :-) ??? :-( :-)

And from a post made on the same day as this one above

I, unlike Irfan, support the rebels. Metre is
NOT the most important factor to me. If I hear a great Sher, which has
some faults from the point of view of metre, I won't mind. But then, there
is the same technical loophole in my viewpoint. We have to resort to a bit
of subjectiveness to decide the 'misra'. Makes me uneasy. A lot. But still,
somehow, I feel, I am justified.

So you see, I am also aware of the problems in my views. I know what I am
saying and why I am saying so. I have given sufficient thought to these
issues and I have come to my own conclusions.

I am this way for a long time, so I doubt if I can be converted :-) Frankly,
we don't need to convert each other. I am happy the way we are. If we all
start thinking the same way, there is no fun :-) :-)

>> >But it seems that SOME METER would do to most.

>> ^^^^
>> Not sure what SOME means. Is it something like approximate?
>> In any case I think most poetry follows "some" kind of meter.
>
>By "some", what he means is that if the ghazal is written in urdu then it
>must follow urdu meter, if it is written in english then it can be written
>in either urdu or english meter and if it is written in hindi then it can
>be written in urdu or hindi meter

That's right. As for the RJGK-36, I think most of the songs are in SOME meter.
I cannot offer any formal proof. But they _sound_ metered. Also they have
been written by some of the best poets like Sahir, Shakeel, Majrooh and
Gulzar (yes !!). So there is a lot of chance that they are metered. Also,
one can feel the rhythm and flow in the poetry of these songs. So I won't
be stupid if I say that these have a high chance of being metered.

In short, although I have not formally checked the meter of each and every
sher in each and every song, I do feel that they are in SOME meter.

But since I could not offer any formal proof, I said that the songs _may_
not fit the _standard_ meters of _Urdu_ Poetry. That is quite different
from saying that "Abhay says, why bother about meter".

I hope this clarifies my stand. In any case, I don't want to offer
explanations and then explanations for the explanations and so on.
This has been a very tiring discussion. I prefer direct questions the
way Ikram asked and the direct criticism Irfan has for my stand on
these issues.

>Actually, I am not completely comfortable with the matla rule.
>I think it is important, both in terms of structure and aesthetic content.
>But to make it a necessity is a bit too strict.

That's exactly my stand on meter ! Isn't it ? Of course, meter and matla
are two different things with different importance, but the spirit of
our views is the same.
Similarly, Irfan, just because of this statement, you wouldn't like anyone
quoting you and saying that "there is no need to follow the rule of Matla".
Right ? That's was the reason of my angry reply to Kalyan.

>I don't think all of
>the ghazals in Diwan-e-Ghalib follow this rule either or other poets
>for that matter.

You are right ! And I offered similar reason for my views on Meter !!
According to Dr. Vaikar, analysts have found meter faults in the poetry
of even GHalib and Iqbal !! So there we go !

As for the absence of Matla in many Deewaans, I think there can be many
reasons. It's possible that the compiler (Haali in case of Ghalib) did
not include all the Shers. It's possible that the poet himself removed
the shers for the sake of quality. It's possible that the poet had not
yet finished the GHazal. Or any other reason.

To me Matla is as essential as Qaafiya. Matla sets the tone and the mood
of the GHazal. Not meaningwise but it kind of prepares the background.
I have a strong liking for Matla. To me it looks obviously essential.
Anyway. Some other time.

- Abhay.
Simply my views. Nothing more, nothing less. For the last time.