A 4 hour alpha male fantasy (Lagaan - good cricket based film)
Sanjeev Kumar
>
> vri...@excite.com says...
> >In short, it's a loud, in-your-face kinda movie,
> >which admittedly has an audience in every culture,
> >but please include me out.
>
> I haven't seen the movie, but the songs are highly
> overrated.When ARR attempts songs with rustic/ethnic
> flavor, he comes a cropper big time. Same happened
> in Taal,Zubeida before.
>
> RK-
Changed the ng for its relevance.
Please add a IMO to this. I agree about Taal being overrated. But Lagaan
is good. What did you find bad about the rustic/ethnic flavor about
"O re Chori..", "Mitwaa" or "O paalanhaare" song. Melodious and
hummable. Have been playing in my car stereo since the day I bought it.
Ravi Krishna
>Changed the ng for its relevance.
>Please add a IMO to this.
Isn't that obvious that *it is* IMO. Do u think I am speaking
for my neighbor :-)
RK-
Ravi Krishna
>Melodious and
>hummable. Have been playing in my car stereo since the day I bought it.
OK I will ask this question few months down the road. I bet by then
you will be sick of it.
Almost all of his songs are flavor of the month type.
RK-
PS: when was the last time you heard the songs of Kaadalan (or Hum
Se Hain Muqubala in Hindi).
Sanjeev Kumar
So, what's your gripe about ARR in Lagaan, again?
Sanjeev Kumar
That is true for almost all of the new songs. But I think Lagaan will
last longer. I still listen to Dil Se after two years. Taal's goner.
Compare it with the trash dished out by Anu Malik. We will forget the
songs the moment we step out the theatre.
The tunes of Lagaan seem only to be too modern for 1893. But the music
as such (lyrics, singers etc.) seemed to be exuberant.
Arun Verma
good. I like them more
after watching the movie -- this is one of rare instances where songs are
extremely relevant, in terms of
the context in the movie and song lyrics and lift up and add to the mood in
the movie -- awesome direction
and great lyrics by Javed Akhtar, beautiful tunes and amazing singing
specially by Udit . Although the best
song and the best singing performance goes to Radha Kaise na Jale and Asha
Bhosle all of 68 years young
singing for a girl one-fourth her age on the screen........
Lagaan music may not be as good as Zubeida or Taal (though close), and its
songs might not be remembered 2+ years down the road, but the movie itself
wouldn't have been the same for me without the songs...
Arun
"Ravi Krishna" <ravikrishna...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9had15$d1qo7$1...@ID-75254.news.dfncis.de...
Ravi Krishna
>Compare it with the trash dished out by Anu Malik. We will forget the
>songs the moment we step out the theatre.
Yes I agree that Agarkar is better than Paras Mhambery :-)
RK-
Ket...@att.net
>
>Ravi Krishna wrote:
>> I haven't seen the movie, but the songs are highly
>> overrated.When ARR attempts songs with rustic/ethnic
>> flavor, he comes a cropper big time. Same happened
>> in Taal,Zubeida before.
>>
>> RK-
>
>Changed the ng for its relevance.
>Please add a IMO to this. I agree about Taal being overrated. But Lagaan
>is good. What did you find bad about the rustic/ethnic flavor about
>"O re Chori..", "Mitwaa" or "O paalanhaare" song. Melodious and
>hummable. Have been playing in my car stereo since the day I bought it.
How does melodious/hummable translate to rustic/ethnic? Or does your car stereo
give out flashing lights to indicate whether a song is rustic or not? What Ravi
Krishna probably means is that the songs a) don't sound as if they are in the
1890s and b) they still sound too modernish. Yes, they are
melodious/hummable/good and all that, but let's not confuse the two issues. I am
not sure if ARR can give rustic music, which is different from ethnic or
melodious. AFAIR, there is a Rajasthani folk song in Zubeida, when Manoj
Bajpai-Karishma get married, and if it is not just some folk troupe performing
it, then ARR has done a decent job of composing that. But in Lagaan, I don't
think he comes across as rustic anywhere. You give ARR a village scene and a
village song and what does he come up with--"aathangara marame" in "Kizhakku
Cheemayile". Brilliant song, lovely usage of instruments, the sound of cascading
water, etc etc, but rustic? No! Far too much use of that electric drum pad to
wipe out all traces of rusticness.
IMHO, one example of rustic would be "Aan milo, aan milo shyam savare" from
Devdas. The closest ARR comes to rustic--from what little I have heard--is
Rukmini Rukmini in Roja. Glad he used those kettle drums instead of his usual
electric kit.
Ketan
Sanjeev Kumar
>
> How does melodious/hummable translate to rustic/ethnic? Or does your
> car stereo give out flashing lights to indicate whether a song is
> rustic or not?
Very funny.
I was not prepared for a full-length debate with him. Wrong choice of
words. Before I respond to your funny post, let me know if you are
talking like a regular RMIMer with a
old-is-always-gold-new-is-always-utter-rubbish kind of attitude?
> What Ravi Krishna probably means is that the songs a)
> don't sound as if they are in the 1890s and b) they still sound too
> modernish.
How do think the songs/tunes sounded in 1890? If you truly believe
that the songs of 1890 were to be composed for a out-n-out "COMMERCIAL"
film, where the idea is to make money, you got to be kidding. It would
sould like a documentary, and why would anybody do that for a commercial
movie. But still in Lagaan with the constraints of commercialism,
he comes up a "Radha kaise ne Jale", "Mitwaa" and "O paalanhaare" and I
don;t find him using a lot of technocraft for these song. What is
wrong with "Ghanana Ghanana" in terms of him using a lot of electronics
in his composition?
>
> IMHO, one example of rustic would be "Aan milo, aan milo shyam savare"
> from Devdas. The closest ARR comes to rustic--from what little I have
> heard--is Rukmini Rukmini in Roja. Glad he used those kettle drums
> instead of his usual electric kit.
I would take the songs of L anyday over a "rustic" Rukmini which for me
was a horrible song.
Shyamal Pain
songs of the last 10 -12 years. That some of these songs sell
fabulously and fetch the producer a lot of money. But the half
life of these "superhit" songs is very short. After 2 years , nobody
remebers the songs.
Sanjeev Kumar <je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B38CC...@hotmail.com...
Pankaj Kakkar
> PS: when was the last time you heard the songs of Kaadalan (or Hum
> Se Hain Muqubala in Hindi).
They've been on my mp3 playlist permanently for the last year or so.
Pankaj
Ket...@att.net
>Ket...@att.net wrote:
>>
>> How does melodious/hummable translate to rustic/ethnic? Or does your
>> car stereo give out flashing lights to indicate whether a song is
>> rustic or not?
>
>Very funny.
Yes I thought so too. Thanks!
>I was not prepared for a full-length debate with him. Wrong choice of
>words. Before I respond to your funny post, let me know if you are
>talking like a regular RMIMer with a
>old-is-always-gold-new-is-always-utter-rubbish kind of attitude?
I will leave it to you to decide what category I fall in. If you would rather
not debate using those excuses, so be it.
>How do think the songs/tunes sounded in 1890? If you truly believe
>that the songs of 1890 were to be composed for a out-n-out "COMMERCIAL"
>film, where the idea is to make money, you got to be kidding. It would
>sould like a documentary, and why would anybody do that for a commercial
Oh I see. So Naushad was kidding when he composed for Mughal-e-Azam or SDB for
Devdas or S N Tripathi for Sangeet Samrat Tansen right? I don't see the music of
these movies subscribing to being of the early 1600's or whatever the time
period is, and YET they do not sound as out of place as ARR's does given the
time period. And they managed to be commercially good too. Let's just say ARR
did not compose period music for Lagaan and leave it at that. I don't think he
is incapable of it--he is--but here he did not quite get to that level. He could
have done better in terms of period music. The overall music is still good.
>movie. But still in Lagaan with the constraints of commercialism,
>he comes up a "Radha kaise ne Jale", "Mitwaa" and "O paalanhaare" and I
>don;t find him using a lot of technocraft for these song. What is
>wrong with "Ghanana Ghanana" in terms of him using a lot of electronics
>in his composition?
You tell me--I didn't know electronic instruments were a rage in 1893.
Ketan
Z
As an average person who enjoys good movies and good music,
I felt the songs of Lagaan with all the good tunes and lyrics
still felt terribly out of the mood of the movie.
They did not sound a bit like music from a village of the part of India
where the story is set, even less from the times that it was set in.
<Ket...@att.net> wrote in message news:9hadm...@drn.newsguy.com...
Sanjeev Kumar
>
> Oh I see. So Naushad was kidding when he composed for Mughal-e-Azam or SDB for
> Devdas or S N Tripathi for Sangeet Samrat Tansen right? I don't see the music of
> these movies subscribing to being of the early 1600's or whatever the time
> period is, and YET they do not sound as out of place as ARR's does given the
> time period. And they managed to be commercially good too. Let's just say ARR
> did not compose period music for Lagaan and leave it at that. I don't think he
> is incapable of it--he is--but here he did not quite get to that level. He could
> have done better in terms of period music. The overall music is still good.
>
It's becoming a favourite among people out here. Whenever a MD is
evaluated, he is always compared to Naushad or AB! May be your
expectations of modern day hindi music is very high and very much based
on what was composed 50 years ago. Everything in the world evolves for
good or bad. YOu cannot base your expection of ARR's ability to compose
period tunes with that from yesteryears fare from Naushad/SNT. Anyway,
you cannot expect villagers in 1890 to start singing classical songs
with adherence to raag and taal. Something like... "Umad Umad kar aaire
ghata" types should do.
Ket...@att.net
>It's becoming a favourite among people out here. Whenever a MD is
>evaluated, he is always compared to Naushad or AB! May be your
>expectations of modern day hindi music is very high and very much based
>on what was composed 50 years ago. Everything in the world evolves for
Fine we won't compare ARR to Naushad/AB and 50 years ago. Let's just stick to
comparing him to L-P and 15 years ago. In terms of music and period authencity,
Utsav comes across as far closer to the real thing in feel then Lagaan does.
Heck even 1942-ALS does a better job than Lagaan does in this area and that is
barely 7 years old. Happy now? Probably not. People like you want to speak of
ARR in the leagues of the great MD's like AB, SDB, OPN, Roshan, etc but don't
want to use them as yardstick to compare him to. Why the duplicity?
>good or bad. YOu cannot base your expection of ARR's ability to compose
>period tunes with that from yesteryears fare from Naushad/SNT. Anyway,
Not so sure. If we can say, that Naushad, SNT failed to evolve, and change with
the times and cite that as a reason for them being driven out by the late 60's,
then why is it so wrong to expect ARR to be able to come up with period tunes? I
see arguments that say Naushad could never do stuff like ARR did hence he is not
good. Yes he could not. So can ARR do stuff like what Naushad did? I wonder
what ARR would do if there ever is a power crisis in Chennai. I hope he has
plenty of backup generators in place.
>you cannot expect villagers in 1890 to start singing classical songs
>with adherence to raag and taal. Something like... "Umad Umad kar aaire
>ghata" types should do.
Why not? If city folks can sing "Aap jaisa koi" in Malkauns why can't village
folk sing in raag-taal, when they would be much more in touch to the earthy
music uninfluenced by the polluted Western music?
Ketan
Sanjeev Kumar
>
> Fine we won't compare ARR to Naushad/AB and 50 years ago. Let's just
> stick to comparing him to L-P and 15 years ago. In terms of music and
> period authencity, Utsav comes across as far closer to the real thing
> in feel then Lagaan does. Heck even 1942-ALS does a better job than
> Lagaan does in this area and that is barely 7 years old. Happy now?
> Probably not. People like you want to speak of ARR in the leagues of
> the great MD's like AB, SDB, OPN, Roshan, etc but don't want to use
> them as yardstick to compare him to. Why the duplicity?
>
Getting judgemental are we? FYKI, I'm not one of those ARR fanatics
that you mention. I got sick of Taal in a day. I don't like any of his
"flavor of the month" songs. The issue was with Lagaan and ARR. IMO, it
was good and cannot be written off with arguments like "you won't
listen to it two years down the line".
I don't know how you would know the credibility of a song's tune to be
appropriate with its time. Utsav's songs/tunes weren't 2000 years old.
It was as modern as any other tune in 1980's. We never had violins in
our music 2000 years old. LP used a lot of it in Utsav. Well, 1942-ALS
should've had songs/tunes similar to ones sung by KLS/PMullick. But were
they? I don't know how you consider one better than the other in that
aspect.
> Not so sure. If we can say, that Naushad, SNT failed to evolve, and change with
> the times and cite that as a reason for them being driven out by the late 60's,
> then why is it so wrong to expect ARR to be able to come up with period tunes? I
> see arguments that say Naushad could never do stuff like ARR did hence he is not
> good. Yes he could not. So can ARR do stuff like what Naushad did? I wonder
> what ARR would do if there ever is a power crisis in Chennai. I hope he has
> plenty of backup generators in place.
LOL! He's UPS's most-preferred customer!
ARR can attempt to do stuff like Naushad and fare not as good. But
Naushad would never be considered for a Broadway production! It's not
something to do with overall talent. But with the talent relevent to
current time and appeal/popularity their music has with the mainstream
audience.
>
> Why not? If city folks can sing "Aap jaisa koi" in Malkauns why can't village
> folk sing in raag-taal, when they would be much more in touch to the earthy
> music uninfluenced by the polluted Western music?
THis is getting tough for my thick skull. Care to elaborate?
Cricfan
> In article <3B38E4...@hotmail.com>, Sanjeev rants....
>
> >It's becoming a favourite among people out here. Whenever a MD is
> >evaluated, he is always compared to Naushad or AB! May be your
> >expectations of modern day hindi music is very high and very much based
> >on what was composed 50 years ago. Everything in the world evolves for
>
> Fine we won't compare ARR to Naushad/AB and 50 years ago. Let's just stick to
> comparing him to L-P and 15 years ago. In terms of music and period authencity,
> Utsav comes across as far closer to the real thing in feel then Lagaan does.
> Heck even 1942-ALS does a better job than Lagaan does in this area and that is
> barely 7 years old. Happy now?
Personally, I don't like to get into "then" vs "now debates, since
they are judgemental anyway. I bet that there were a lot of raised
eyebrows when 'Teesri Manzil' was released. Now it is recognized as a
classic by many:-)
I do not agree that Utsav was based on traditional Indian music of
*that* period. Possibly the only film (and my knowledge is limited)
which was authentic in terms of using music styles of the relevant
period was the Kannada film 'Madhvacharya' by the great G. V. Iyer.
The music is very different from what we now know as 'classical
music'. [As an aside check out Asha Bhonsle - Ustad Ali Akbar Khan's
album 'Legacy: 16th-18th Century Music From India '. Even that is
different from conventional Hindustani classical music. ]
>Probably not. People like you want to speak of
> ARR in the leagues of the great MD's like AB, SDB, OPN, Roshan, etc but don't
> want to use them as yardstick to compare him to. Why the duplicity?
>
Why compare at all? Do we enjoy a Tendulkar less even though he's not
as graceful as Greg Chappell or as classical as Sunil Gavaskar?
> >good or bad. YOu cannot base your expection of ARR's ability to compose
> >period tunes with that from yesteryears fare from Naushad/SNT. Anyway,
>
> Not so sure. If we can say, that Naushad, SNT failed to evolve, and change with
> the times and cite that as a reason for them being driven out by the late 60's,
> then why is it so wrong to expect ARR to be able to come up with period tunes? I
> see arguments that say Naushad could never do stuff like ARR did hence he is not
> good. Yes he could not. So can ARR do stuff like what Naushad did? I wonder
> what ARR would do if there ever is a power crisis in Chennai. I hope he has
> plenty of backup generators in place.
>
Orchestration, rhythm, mixing, harmony is an art in itself. I disagree
with a lot of folks who categorize songs as 'good' if they are
'hummable'. In other words, melody overrides all other factors in
their weightage criteria. Orchestration is high art in itself. Wagner
is certainly not hummable, but he isn't less 'enjoyable' by any means.
I love Sir Andrew Llyod Webber's music even though it is more
inspiring to watch it when it is being performed during his superb
musicals (esp in Broadway!). But it is great to hear!
> >you cannot expect villagers in 1890 to start singing classical songs
> >with adherence to raag and taal. Something like... "Umad Umad kar aaire
> >ghata" types should do.
>
> Why not? If city folks can sing "Aap jaisa koi" in Malkauns why can't village
> folk sing in raag-taal, when they would be much more in touch to the earthy
> music uninfluenced by the polluted Western music?
>
>
> Ketan
Well, I think music, especially Indian music has been enriched by
Western influence. I love traditional Indian music. However, I equally
love to hear Lalgudi Jayaraman play the violin or Kadri Gopalnath play
the saxophone which are western instruments. I don't think they
"pollute" Indian music. Even the great music directors of yore have
been influenced by western music.
-----<digression mode>-----
Ketan, this is not aimed at you :-)
I used to read/write in soc.culture.indian when it was a nascent group
with supreme intellectuals (your truly excluded, of course) way back
in 1990, before there was anything called the WWW. Later, it got
divided into regional newsgroups and recreational newsgroups focussing
on Indian popular culture. That's how rmim was formed too. I started
reading rmim recently again after some years and I must admit I have
great empathy with Sanjeev Kumar. There seems to be an "US" vs "THEM"
attitude amongst certain writers on this forum who seem to get into
needless confrontations with those they see as newbies. Believe you
me, there were tons of incredible posters in the early 90's as well
[marriage made most of us recluses from newsgroups :-)] but one
wouldn't detect a condescending attitude towards newbies. This feeling
of "I am always right" is very disappointing. For those folks, I have
included Rudyard Kipling's superb poem.. Well, he is part of Indian
culture <g>)
----
The Conundrum of the Workshops
When the flush of a new-born sun fell first on Eden's green and gold,
Our father Adam sat under the Tree and scratched with a stick in the
mould;
And the first rude sketch that the world had seen was joy to his
mighty
heart,
Till the Devil whispered behind the leaves, "It's pretty, but is it
Art?"
Wherefore he called to his wife, and fled to fashion his work anew --
The first of his race who cared a fig for the first, most dread
review;
And he left his lore to the use of his sons -- and that was a glorious
gain
When the Devil chuckled "Is it Art?" in the ear of the branded Cain.
They builded a tower to shiver the sky and wrench the stars apart,
Till the Devil grunted behind the bricks "It's striking, but is it
Art?"
The stone was dropped at the quarry-side and the idle derrick swung,
While each man talked of the aims of Art, and each in an alien tongue.
They fought and they talked in the North and the South, they talked
and
they fought in the West,
Till the waters rose on the pitiful land, and the poor Red Clay had
rest --
Had rest til the dank, blank-canvas dawn when the dove was preened to
start,
And the Devil bubbled below the keel: "It's human, but is it Art?"
The tale is as old as the Eden Tree -- and new as the new-cut tooth --
For each man knows ere his lip-thatch grows he is master of Art and
Truth;
And each man hears as the twilight nears, to the beat of his dying
heart,
The Devil drum on the darkened pane: "You did it, but was it Art?"
We have learned to whittle the Eden Tree to the shape of a surplice-
peg
We have learned to bottle our parents twain in the yelk of an addled
egg,
We know that the tail must wag the dog, for the horse is drawn by the
cart;
But the Devil whoops, as he whooped of old: "It's clever, but is it
Art?"
When the flicker of London sun falls faint on the Club-room's green
and
gold,
The sons of Adam sit them down and scratch with their pens in the
mould --
They scratch with their pens in the mould of their graves, and the ink
and
the anguish start,
For the Devil mutters behind the leaves: "It's pretty, but is it Art?"
Now if we could win to the Eden Tree where the Four Great Rivers,
flow,
And the Wreath of Eve is red on the turf as she left it long ago,
And if we could come when the sentry slept and softly scurry through,
By the favour of God we might know as much as our father Adam knew.
-- Rudyard Kipling
-----</digression mode>-----
My $0.02 worth.
Cheers
Arun Simha
Ravi Krishna
>>ARR in the leagues of the great MD's like AB, SDB, OPN, Roshan, etc
>>but don't
>>want to use them as yardstick to compare him to. Why the duplicity?
>>
>
>Why compare at all? Do we enjoy a Tendulkar less even though he's not
>as graceful as Greg Chappell or as classical as Sunil Gavaskar?
Just a little correction. SRT is more graceful than GC and as perfect
as SMG. If at all he lacks something, it is temperament and patience.
Your example was wrong. A better examplem would be that of IVAR.
>Orchestration, rhythm, mixing, harmony is an art in itself. I disagree
>with a lot of folks who categorize songs as 'good' if they are
>'hummable'. In other words, melody overrides all other factors in
>their weightage criteria.
To a large extent true. If a song lacks melody, however good the
orchestra is, the song can not be listenable. However the
vice-versa is quite possible, that is a good melodious songs marred
by bad orchestra is still listenable.
RK-
Cricfan
> asi...@My-deja.com says...
> >>ARR in the leagues of the great MD's like AB, SDB, OPN, Roshan, etc
> >>but don't
> >>want to use them as yardstick to compare him to. Why the duplicity?
> >>
> >
> >Why compare at all? Do we enjoy a Tendulkar less even though he's not
> >as graceful as Greg Chappell or as classical as Sunil Gavaskar?
>
> Just a little correction. SRT is more graceful than GC and as perfect
> as SMG. If at all he lacks something, it is temperament and patience.
> Your example was wrong. A better examplem would be that of IVAR.
>
Ah! But the purists get aghast when they see how Sachin holds the bat!
It's very much like Boycs with one hand on top of the handle and the
other very near the blade. Not very classical. Sachin is as graceful
as GC on the off, but as far as on drives were concerned GC was
supreme.
Maybe we ought to take this to r.s.c, where this argument has probably
gone on since 1989. :-)
Cheers
Arun
Sanjeev Kumar
>
> Ketan, this is not aimed at you :-)
>
> I used to read/write in soc.culture.indian when it was a nascent group
> with supreme intellectuals (your truly excluded, of course) way back
> in 1990, before there was anything called the WWW. Later, it got
> divided into regional newsgroups and recreational newsgroups focussing
> on Indian popular culture. That's how rmim was formed too. I started
> reading rmim recently again after some years and I must admit I have
> great empathy with Sanjeev Kumar. There seems to be an "US" vs "THEM"
> attitude amongst certain writers on this forum who seem to get into
> needless confrontations with those they see as newbies. Believe you
> me, there were tons of incredible posters in the early 90's as well
> [marriage made most of us recluses from newsgroups :-)] but one
> wouldn't detect a condescending attitude towards newbies. This feeling
> of "I am always right" is very disappointing. For those folks, I have
> included Rudyard Kipling's superb poem.. Well, he is part of Indian
> culture <g>)
I'm too old to be bracketed under "NOW". I've barely post here but I've
been reading ngs for a long time. And you may be right about getting a
feeling out here that some posters value their opinion more highly than
others, especially the ones that like "older" music towards those
liking "newer" music. But this attitude AFAICR, I've seen only in
recent times not even during the Rafians-KKK wars.
Ket...@att.net
>Getting judgemental are we? FYKI, I'm not one of those ARR fanatics
No, but are you getting judgemental by insinuating that I am getting
judgemental? :)
>was good and cannot be written off with arguments like "you won't
>listen to it two years down the line".
Right...and neither can the old songs be written off as lacking in somethings. I
think I consistently mentioned all along that Lagaan was good and just as I
still listen to Dil Se more than 2 years down the line, I am sure I will listen
to Lagaan too.
>I don't know how you would know the credibility of a song's tune to be
>appropriate with its time. Utsav's songs/tunes weren't 2000 years old.
>It was as modern as any other tune in 1980's. We never had violins in
>our music 2000 years old. LP used a lot of it in Utsav. Well, 1942-ALS
>should've had songs/tunes similar to ones sung by KLS/PMullick. But were
>they? I don't know how you consider one better than the other in that
>aspect.
I did not say Utsav or 1942-ALS was exactly the music of the era they
represented. I said the feel the music provided for that era came closer to
reality in these two cases than it did in the case of Lagaan. Yes I wasn't born
2000 years ago nor in 1942, so don't jump out with a "how do you know what music
was back then"? I don't. It's something that stirs within you and tells you
something is fitting into the picturization/theme of the movie or is an
eyesore/earsore. In the case of Lagaan at times I found the music jarring--not
in a bad sense--but in relation to the period, story and characters. It's like
if you watch the song "O Mitwa", Aamir comes out with Hrithik like dance steps.
That somehow stood out as jarring for a villager in 1893. In "Radha kaise na
jale", Aamir wears shoes that suspiciously look like Rockports. That was
jarring. Similarly the usage of heavily synthesized music fitted into the movie
at times and souded out of place at times TO ME. All of the above is IMHO(yo
Chetan, can you read that?) I am not anti-ARR. Infact let me also state that I
found 1947-Earth's music less jarring in terms of period music than Lagaan's,
even if Lagaan's overall soundtrack is better.
>ARR can attempt to do stuff like Naushad and fare not as good. But
>Naushad would never be considered for a Broadway production! It's not
>something to do with overall talent. But with the talent relevent to
>current time and appeal/popularity their music has with the mainstream
>audience.
A) Why is being considered for a Broadway production such a big thing? Is that
the ultimate stamp of greatness? Who decided on that?
B) Can you say that Naushad's music was NOT RELEVANT to the time and
appeal/popularity of the 1950's and ARR's is in the 1990's-2000's?
Infact deciding on whose music was MORE relevant to the time/appeal/popularity
of that period is a whole separate debate.
In article <9a0087b.01062...@posting.google.com>, asi...@My-deja.com
says...
>Personally, I don't like to get into "then" vs "now debates, since
>they are judgemental anyway. I bet that there were a lot of raised
>eyebrows when 'Teesri Manzil' was released. Now it is recognized as a
>classic by many:-)
By MANY? You should say ALL! Show me a person who says the music of 'TM' is not
a classic and I will show you a Philistine. Show me a person who says the music
of 'TM' is a classic example of bad music and I will show you a Philistine and a
jerk. :) On the occasion of his 62nd birth anniversary today, all I can say is :
Dear LoRD
Thank God
For raising music to a higher level(Teesri Manzil)
Ok.. I never claimed to be a great haiku writer. So sue me! :)
Ketan
Ravi Krishna
>By MANY? You should say ALL! Show me a person who says the music of 'TM' is
>not
>a classic and I will show you a Philistine. Show me a person who says the
>music
>of 'TM' is a classic example of bad music and I will show you a Philistine
>and a jerk. :)
was SDB a jerk :-)
According to Naushad, SDB use to say to him "pancham ko samjaho na,
yeh hamare sangeet ko bilkul bhool gaya hain". Was he referring to
Amar Prem kinda music or TM :-).
BTW TM music was good and that's all. To call it great or classic
is exaggeration of the worst order. As a trendsetter I would rate
ARR's Thiruda Thiruda many notches above TM.
RK-
Sanjeev Kumar
> A) Why is being considered for a Broadway production such a big thing?
> Is that the ultimate stamp of greatness? Who decided on that?
>
> B) Can you say that Naushad's music was NOT RELEVANT to the time and
> appeal/popularity of the 1950's and ARR's is in the 1990's-2000's?
>
> Infact deciding on whose music was MORE relevant to the
> time/appeal/popularity of that period is a whole separate debate.
I should've said "global" appeal. ARR could, with his talent, get some
crossover audience. That kind of evolution was out of scope in the 50s.
In fact, Naushad didn't change even for the late 50s and 60s with the
SJs and OPNs of the world.
Ket...@att.net
I wouldn't say it was out of scope, just that it was much more difficult back
then, than it is today. Pt. Ravi Shankar did get the crossover audience in the
mid-to-late 60's even if he had to use The Beatles to piggy-back himself into
the minds of Western audiences. But I think(and this is a wild guess), Pt. RS
was much more in tune with the tastes of Western audiences having spent his
formative years in Paris so he could with a tweak here and there, bridge that
cultural difference. Naushad might never have chased/craved a crossover
audience. That could be because of a) his career in Bollywood was itself very
satisfying and b) he knew his limitations and had a mental block in trying to
get over them. Now we have rap artistes actually singing bhangra. The world has
shrunk so ARR does have a definite advantage. Given the same scope to Naushad of
TV, the Web etc, I am sure he would have marketed his music abroad successfully
even in the 50's. The Greeks according to Helen Abadzi seemed to have very much
known his existence, though I am not sure if Naushad knew he was being copied.
And the fact that Naushad has managed to stay in the news for the last 50 years,
definitely does say a lot for his self-marketing/PR skills.
Ketan
Ket...@att.net
ravikrishna...@my-deja.com says...
>Ket...@att.net says...
>
>>By MANY? You should say ALL! Show me a person who says the music of 'TM' is
>>not
>>a classic and I will show you a Philistine. Show me a person who says the
>>music
>>of 'TM' is a classic example of bad music and I will show you a Philistine
>>and a jerk. :)
>
>was SDB a jerk :-)
Sometimes yes!
>According to Naushad, SDB use to say to him "pancham ko samjaho na,
>yeh hamare sangeet ko bilkul bhool gaya hain". Was he referring to
>Amar Prem kinda music or TM :-).
Was it to Naushad or to Majrooh? I have read of him requesting Majrooh to knock
some sense into RDB. In any case SDB wouldn't have complained too hard. Why
would he? Not when his son was churning out songs like "Kar le pyaar" and "Mera
kya sanam" for Talash or "Baithe hai kya uske paas" for Jewel Thief. If he was
soooo against Western music, he could have banned RD from the studio. That
hardly seems to have been the case.
>BTW TM music was good and that's all. To call it great or classic
>is exaggeration of the worst order. As a trendsetter I would rate
>ARR's Thiruda Thiruda many notches above TM.
Can you show me any movie prior to 'TM' that had anything remotely resembling
the music of 'TM'? There was a Roja prior to "Thiruda Thiruda" so you could call
the former a trendsetter but why "Thiruda Thiruda"?
Ketan
Sanjeev Kumar
> Can you show me any movie prior to 'TM' that had anything remotely
> resembling the music of 'TM'?
There are scores of S-J songs composed for Shammi Kaps that sound
similar to 'TM'. I don't think 'TM' (1966) was anything more a
trendsetter than 'Junglee' (1961)
> There was a Roja prior to "Thiruda Thiruda" so you could call
> the former a trendsetter but why "Thiruda Thiruda"?
Very true. Roja was the first that sounded different in the 90s.
Ravi Krishna
>There are scores of S-J songs composed for Shammi Kaps that sound
>similar to 'TM'. I don't think 'TM' (1966) was anything more a
>trendsetter than 'Junglee' (1961)
or for that matter OPN scores.
>> There was a Roja prior to "Thiruda Thiruda" so you could call
>> the former a trendsetter but why "Thiruda Thiruda"?
>
>Very true. Roja was the first that sounded different in the 90s.
TT was totally new concept in music. Excellent use of western classical
music and some terrific orchestra.
I haven't heard songs of TM for more than 10 yrs now and neither *do* I
plan to listen to it ever again. However I still listen to TT's music
and will do so forever.
Ketan: This is not a remark against RDB. If someone asks me to rate
RDB's top 10 films, TM will not make it. However TT is in top 2 or 3
films of ARR.
RK-
Ket...@att.net
ravikrishna...@my-deja.com says...
>
>je...@hotmail.com says...
>>There are scores of S-J songs composed for Shammi Kaps that sound
>>similar to 'TM'. I don't think 'TM' (1966) was anything more a
>>trendsetter than 'Junglee' (1961)
>
>or for that matter OPN scores.
Awright! Ravi/Sanjeev : Name one SJ & OPN song that sounds similar to "Aaja aaja
main hoon pyaar tera"? I am sure you know the full story of how initially when
ShammiK came in, the fear was that ShammiK would drop RD in favour of SJ.
ShammiK did request that SJ be taken, but Vijay Anand/Nazir Hussain asked him to
atleast hear out RDB once. He did, and ShammiK has gone on record to say that
when he heard "Aaja aaja..." he was blown. He had not heard anything like that
prior to this. An addition to this story goes on how he had to be removed from
the recording room because during the actual recording he started screaming in
excitement at the music. So are you saying you guys know better than ShammiK as
to whether this was a path-breaking score or not and that scores do exist in one
of his earlier movies? Maybe you do. But as I said, which song in Junglee comes
close to "Aaja aaja.."? Which OPN song comes close to "O haseena zulfowali"?
IMHO, the path-breaking was not merely in terms of melody but in usage of
orchestration, electronics and rhythm. This is precisely what made RDB a pariah
and an outcast. People with closed minds--Naushad for one-- did howl at the
desecration of HFM only to quietly hire Kersi Lord in Saathi(?). I got this from
Kersi Lord himself. Also post-TM, Ghulam Mhd hired only Kersi Lord to do the
arrangement for Pakeezah. And what relation does Kersi Lord have to 'TM'? His
brother Budgie Lord is the one whose drums you hear in the movie, on say the
start of "Tumne mujhe dekha" and it is Kersi's arrangement/orchestration you
hear in the movie. So if this was not a path-breaking score and versions of it
had appeared in other ShammiK/SJ/OPN movies, why was RDB slammed for his
supposed desecration?
Ketan
Chetan Vinchhi
Cricfan wrote...
>
>[As an aside check out Asha Bhonsle - Ustad Ali Akbar Khan's
>album 'Legacy: 16th-18th Century Music From India '. Even that is
>different from conventional Hindustani classical music. ]
A couple of quick comments on this. It seems to me that the
title is more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. The
typical western listener of "world" music or whatever seems
to be the target of this kind of labeling.
I have heard the album. Could you please tell me how it is
"different"? The raagas sung in the album are all easily heard
from contemporary artists. Some of the compositions (or at
least similar ones) are readily sung/played by other musicians.
I believe that the stated objective of this work is to document
some traditional compositions. What that probably means is
that the artists have sung/played them with little or no
improvisation. That is the only difference I can think of.
However, that has nothing to do with what period this music
is from.
C
Cricfan
> In article <9a0087b.01062...@posting.google.com>, asi...@My-deja.com
> says...
>
> >Personally, I don't like to get into "then" vs "now debates, since
> >they are judgemental anyway. I bet that there were a lot of raised
> >eyebrows when 'Teesri Manzil' was released. Now it is recognized as a
> >classic by many:-)
>
> By MANY? You should say ALL! Show me a person who says the music of 'TM' is not
> a classic and I will show you a Philistine. Show me a person who says the music
> of 'TM' is a classic example of bad music and I will show you a Philistine and a
> jerk. :) On the occasion of his 62nd birth anniversary today, all I can say is :
Errrm..I guess you consider S.D. Burman a philistine, then :-) [this
is w.r.t SDB's request to Majrooh asking him to advise RDB to refrain
from composing TM sort of music. Majrooh mentioned this in a tv
interview soon after RDB's death]
Cheers
Arun
Ket...@att.net
says...
>>By MANY? You should say ALL! Show me a person who says the music of 'TM' is not
>>a classic and I will show you a Philistine. Show me a person who says the music
>>of 'TM' is a classic example of bad music and I will show you a Philistine and a
>>jerk. :) On the occasion of his 62nd birth anniversary today, all I can say is :
>
>
>Errrm..I guess you consider S.D. Burman a philistine, then :-) [this
>is w.r.t SDB's request to Majrooh asking him to advise RDB to refrain
>from composing TM sort of music. Majrooh mentioned this in a tv
>interview soon after RDB's death]
Read my statement and a previous post carefully. SDB might have asked Majrooh to
say something to RD, but
a) wholeheartedly used RD's western influences in other SDB movies,
b) recommended to Dev Anand that for a Western theme like Hare Rama HK, it would
be better if Dev used RD instead of himself
c) himself moved to giving music of that style even after RD was no longer his
assistant. See Jugnu, Naya Andaaz to name two.
Ofcourse if I really wanted to back out, I could always say that SDB NEVER said
that the music of 'TM' was not a classic, or that it was bad, so he does not
qualify as a philistine or a jerk. :)
Ketan
Srinivas Ganti
> Read my statement and a previous post carefully. >SDB might have asked
Majrooh to
> say something to RD, but
> a) wholeheartedly used RD's western influences in other SDB movies,
> b) recommended to Dev Anand that for a >Western .theme like Hare Rama HK,
it would
> be better if Dev used RD instead of himself
> c) himself moved to giving music of that style even >after RD was no
longer his
> assistant. See Jugnu, Naya Andaaz to name two.
Not Naya Andaz but Naya Zamaana.
SG.
Ket...@att.net
>
>Ketan wrote:
>
>> Read my statement and a previous post carefully. >SDB might have asked
>Majrooh to
>> say something to RD, but
>> a) wholeheartedly used RD's western influences in other SDB movies,
should have added when RD was the assistant to the above statement
>> b) recommended to Dev Anand that for a >Western .theme like Hare Rama HK,
>it would
>> be better if Dev used RD instead of himself
>> c) himself moved to giving music of that style even >after RD was no
>longer his
>> assistant. See Jugnu, Naya Andaaz to name two.
>
>
>Not Naya Andaz but Naya Zamaana.
Oops! Sorry about that-Naya Zamaana is what I meant. Thanks SG.
Ketan
VSR...@mailandnews.com
>
> je...@hotmail.com says...
> >Melodious and
> >hummable. Have been playing in my car stereo since the day I bought it.
>
> you will be sick of it.
> Almost all of his songs are flavor of the month type.
>
> RK-
> PS: when was the last time you heard the songs of Kaadalan (or Hum
> Se Hain Muqubala in Hindi).
Isn't it great that you remember ARR's this movie not just by its name,
but also by its Tamil name even after 10 years of its release.
There might be several songs that you or other members might not have
heard for 20, 30 or 40 years due to lethargy, availability or other
occupations, but it does not mean that the song was useless.
When did *YOU* last hear any of these songs:
1. ye Zindagi usi ki hai
2. Aawaaz de kahan hai
3. man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj
4. gam diye mustaqil
5. solah baras ki baali umar
6. ye galiyaan ye chaubaara
7. dil deewana bin sajna ke
8. chal chhaiyaan chhaiyaan
9. pehla nasha pehla khumaar
10. ae mere watan ke logo.n
Does that make unheard-for-a-long-time useless.
Avoiding listening them and not able to listen to them are different.
-rawat
VSR...@mailandnews.com
>
> In article <3B38B3...@hotmail.com>, Sanjeev says...
> >
> >Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> >> I haven't seen the movie, but the songs are highly
> >> overrated.When ARR attempts songs with rustic/ethnic
> >> flavor, he comes a cropper big time. Same happened
> >> in Taal,Zubeida before.
> >>
> >> RK-
> >
> >Changed the ng for its relevance.
> >Please add a IMO to this. I agree about Taal being overrated. But Lagaan
> >is good. What did you find bad about the rustic/ethnic flavor about
> >hummable. Have been playing in my car stereo since the day I bought it.
>
> give out flashing lights to indicate whether a song is rustic or not? What Ravi
> Krishna probably means is that the songs a) don't sound as if they are in the
> 1890s and b) they still sound too modernish. Yes, they are
> not sure if ARR can give rustic music, which is different from ethnic or
> melodious. AFAIR, there is a Rajasthani folk song in Zubeida, when Manoj
> Bajpai-Karishma get married, and if it is not just some folk troupe performing
> think he comes across as rustic anywhere. You give ARR a village scene and a
> village song and what does he come up with--"aathangara marame" in "Kizhakku
> Cheemayile". Brilliant song, lovely usage of instruments, the sound of cascading
> water, etc etc, but rustic? No! Far too much use of that electric drum pad to
> wipe out all traces of rusticness.
>
> IMHO, one example of rustic would be "Aan milo, aan milo shyam savare" from
> Devdas. The closest ARR comes to rustic--from what little I have heard--is
> Rukmini Rukmini in Roja. Glad he used those kettle drums instead of his usual
> electric kit.
>
> Ketan
What exactly are rustic and ethnic? How are they different from each
other?
-Rawat
VSR...@mailandnews.com
>
> Ket...@att.net wrote:
> >
> > Fine we won't compare ARR to Naushad/AB and 50 years ago. Let's just
> > stick to comparing him to L-P and 15 years ago. In terms of music and
> > period authencity, Utsav comes across as far closer to the real thing
> > in feel then Lagaan does. Heck even 1942-ALS does a better job than
> > Lagaan does in this area and that is barely 7 years old. Happy now?
> > Probably not. People like you want to speak of ARR in the leagues of
> > the great MD's like AB, SDB, OPN, Roshan, etc but don't want to use
> > them as yardstick to compare him to. Why the duplicity?
> >
>
> Getting judgemental are we? FYKI, I'm not one of those ARR fanatics
> that you mention. I got sick of Taal in a day. I don't like any of his
> "flavor of the month" songs. The issue was with Lagaan and ARR. IMO, it
> was good and cannot be written off with arguments like "you won't
> listen to it two years down the line".
>
> I don't know how you would know the credibility of a song's tune to be
> appropriate with its time. Utsav's songs/tunes weren't 2000 years old.
> It was as modern as any other tune in 1980's. We never had violins in
> our music 2000 years old. LP used a lot of it in Utsav. Well, 1942-ALS
> should've had songs/tunes similar to ones sung by KLS/PMullick. But were
> they? I don't know how you consider one better than the other in that
> aspect.
Somehow Zubeidaa's thumri "chhodo mori baiyaan sajnaa" does appear out
of place in current music and does sound perfectly appropriate for a
1950 scene.
When ARR can create it today, he has the capability to do so for other
films and other era. But a director or actor or MD are not that free.
They have to dance to some one else's tune. whoever controls the purse
strings.
even 1947 Earth music was more fulfilling than Lagaan. "ruth aa gayi re"
and "Ishwar allah" sounded old era's music. though new instruments were
used in all the songs.
Aamir Khan is no shyam Benegal or deepa mehta thus he did not gave arr
freedom that shyam gave for Zubeida, or even better, shyam gave to the
md of sardaari begum. I don't know the period of sardari begum but that
also appears fifty years old music.
> > Not so sure. If we can say, that Naushad, SNT failed to evolve, and change with
> > the times and cite that as a reason for them being driven out by the late 60's,
> > then why is it so wrong to expect ARR to be able to come up with period tunes? I
> > see arguments that say Naushad could never do stuff like ARR did hence he is not
> > good. Yes he could not. So can ARR do stuff like what Naushad did? I wonder
> > what ARR would do if there ever is a power crisis in Chennai. I hope he has
> > plenty of backup generators in place.
>
> LOL! He's UPS's most-preferred customer!
> ARR can attempt to do stuff like Naushad and fare not as good. But
> Naushad would never be considered for a Broadway production! It's not
> something to do with overall talent. But with the talent relevent to
> current time and appeal/popularity their music has with the mainstream
> audience.
Unless some producer, director boldy stands by his conviction in the
capabilities of an artist and gives him a chance. Only then a kabhi
kabhi resurrects a forgotten khayyaam to give best music of the decade
and for generations to remember. Kudos to Yash Chopra.
Naushaad's Guddu song "daddy se poochh lena" is perfectly modern song,
much to the anguish of oldies fans.
-Rawat
VSR...@mailandnews.com
>
> Hi all,
> As an average person who enjoys good movies and good music,
> I felt the songs of Lagaan with all the good tunes and lyrics
> still felt terribly out of the mood of the movie.
> They did not sound a bit like music from a village of the part of India
> where the story is set, even less from the times that it was set in.
>
Would you like to elaborate on your concept of music appropriate for a
village setting.
1. Nadiya ke paar.
2. Chitchor.
3.
..
..
Were they different from current music of the year of the release?
seeing the film, can you tell which year was shot in the film? What if
somebody says that these were 1856 movies. of course, minus the jeep,
light, etc. I mean musically 1856 movies.
-Rawat
VSR...@mailandnews.com
>
> Though I agree that Lagaan songs are not awesome but they are very very
> good. I like them more
> after watching the movie -- this is one of rare instances where songs are
> extremely relevant, in terms of
> the context in the movie and song lyrics and lift up and add to the mood in
> the movie -- awesome direction
> and great lyrics by Javed Akhtar, beautiful tunes and amazing singing
> specially by Udit . Although the best
> song and the best singing performance goes to Radha Kaise na Jale and Asha
> Bhosle all of 68 years young
> singing for a girl one-fourth her age on the screen........
>
> Lagaan music may not be as good as Zubeida or Taal (though close), and its
> songs might not be remembered 2+ years down the road, but the movie itself
> wouldn't have been the same for me without the songs...
Lagaan and Gadar have a good effect that they have broken a myth of
timing, spacing and other bullshit. Two movies releases the same day on
topic not exactly poles apart are both going great guns.
so many producers had taken so many pains, read money, to get a unique
timing for there movies.
Gadar music fails because of Punjabi lyrics.
-Rawat
>
> Arun
>
> "Ravi Krishna" <ravikrishna...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:9had15$d1qo7$1...@ID-75254.news.dfncis.de...
> > je...@hotmail.com says...
> > >Melodious and
> > >hummable. Have been playing in my car stereo since the day I bought it.
> >
Ravi Krishna
>Isn't it great that you remember ARR's this movie not just by its name,
>but also by its Tamil name even after 10 years of its release.
For that matter I remember some horrible songs of LaxmiPyare
even 30 yrs after. So!!! what's ur point?
>
>There might be several songs that you or other members might not have
>heard for 20, 30 or 40 years due to lethargy, availability or other
>occupations, but it does not mean that the song was useless.
>
>When did *YOU* last hear any of these songs:
>1. ye Zindagi usi ki hai
>2. Aawaaz de kahan hai
>3. man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj
>4. gam diye mustaqil
>5. solah baras ki baali umar
>6. ye galiyaan ye chaubaara
>7. dil deewana bin sajna ke
the only difference being, I don't have audio tapes of the above songs.
So the question of listening or not is moot.
I have audio tapes of most of ARR's 1992-95 films which I *dont*
listen at all because I don't feel the urge, except for good ones like
Thiruda-2/Duet.
Now does that say something about the quality of ARR's songs. To me
it clearly says that his songs are just flavor-of-the-month type.
RK-