To take the Ghazal discussion Elsewhere
EkMitra
Abhay, thanks for the wonderful reply. UVR - i shall take the Ghazal discussion
elsewhere - but when I started out Ghazal was no longer related to the urdu - I
wanted to get punjabi, marathi, gujurati ghazals that have affected me - I also
know many of you from your posts in the last 2-3 years and have realised that
most of the answers that I have wanted have come from this coreset. Over the
years RMIM has been my source of wonder words - and since this is a music.*misc*
I would have thought a little stretching of the domain that is allowed on RMIM
would have been allowed - My hiatus from RMIM was for teh same reason - the last
time ASAD was in full flow and Ghazal was being discussed - there are a lot many
who objected to it being on RMIM. It is only from an email discussion with
someone I had exchanged emails with thru' RMIM that I was again encouraged to
discuss it on RMIM. I respect your views and loved the beautiful use of urdu in
putting your point across and for that point alone, I shall make no more posts
about Ghazal - but some final words from my side.. These are borrowed words
from Ghalib and Zauq
rekhta ke tum hi ustaad nahiN ho "GHalib"
kahte haiN agle zamane meN koi Meer bhi thA
[rekhta = Urdu]
"GHalib" apna yeh aqeeda hai
ba-qoul-e-NaasiKH
aap be-bahra hai jo motqid-e-Meer nahiN
[ba-qoul-e-NaasiKH = quoting NaasiKH]
[be-bahra = poor]
[motqid-e-Meer = follower of Meer]
and
na huA par na huA Meer ka andAz naseeb
"Zauq" yaaroN ne bohot zor GHazal meN mara
Abhay, Ghalib to me is teh greatest Shaiyar - but it is only recently that I
have been swept of the feet by Meer....
-
and as a bonus for reading my post patiently here are some Meer Shers....
(thanks Shakil for such a wonderful collection)
ham faqeeroN se be-adaaee kyaa
aan baiThe jo tum ne pyaar kiyaa
[be-adaaee = rudeness]
saKHt kaafir thA jisne pehle "Meer"
mazhab-e-ishq iKHtiyaar kiyA
[mazhab-e-ishq = religion of love]
[iKHtiyaar = adopt]
mere saNg-e-mazaar par farahaad
rakh ke teshaa kahe hai yaa ustaad
[saNg-e-mazaar = grave stone/mausoleum]
[teshaa = axe]
phool, gul, shams-o-qamar saare hee the
par hameN un meN tumheeN bha'e bohot
[shams-o-qamar = sun, moon]
"Meer" se poochhaa jo maiN 'ashiq ho tum
ho ke kuchh chupake se sharma'e bohot
ishq kaa ghar hai "Meer" se aabAd
aise phir KHaanaa-KHaraab kahaaN
[KHaanaa-KHaraab = wretch]
ab to jaate haiN but-kade se "Meer"
phir milenge gar KHudaa laayA
[but-kade = temple, world]
aankhoN se teri hamko hai chashm ki ab howe
jo fitnaa ki duniyaa meN barapaa na huA hogA
[chashm = vision] [fitnaa = mischief/ruin]
[barapaa = occur]
gul-o-a'inaa kyA KHursheed-o-mah kyA
jidhar dekhA udhar terA hi roo thA
[gul-o-a'inaa = flowers, mirror]
[KHursheed-o-mah = sun, moon]
[roo = face/appearance]
"Meer" amadan bhee koi marta hai
jaan hai to jahaan hai pyaare
[amadan = willingly]
Yogesh Sethi
Here is an excerpt from RMIM FAQ-Part 1/2,
Last modified date: Apr 30, 1997.
"Subject: 5.0 What are Ghazals? Can one discuss them on RMIM?"
"There are some Urdu newsgroups, like alt.language.urdu.poetry, in
which one can disuss Ghazals, but since they do not have as wide a
reach as RMIM, one can discuss Ghazals on RMIM. Ghalib ghazals and
ghazals by Jagjit Singh have been discussed on RMIM before (See 5.1
and 11.0)."
In light of the above, would someone kindly explain why EkMitra is being
prevented from discussing ghazals on RMIM.
Regards,
Yogesh Sethi
Abhay Avachat
In article <5un1mn$f...@drn.zippo.com>, Nita says...
>At least tuned ghazals fall in the acceptable category. Thank God for small
>mercies!
:-) :-)
BTW, no one ever opposed them. We are missing the issue.
>Now for untuned ghazals.....
>
>What is one supposed to do if while discussing a particular ghazal one is forced
>to move on to untuned ghazals? Does one stop the thread there? Hardly allows for
>a proper discussion of the topic, does it?
No, one doesn't have to stop. Consider Nitin Sharma's post. He mentioned
some untuned poetry, but only to point out the relation between it and
the film songs. IMHO, this is perfectly fine. Not only it fits the charter,
but it also provides information. I myself have used this as an excuse to
post untuned poetry. Relate it to songs ! Charter is not violated, some
information is provided and great poetry discussed ! Everyone's happy :-)
Of course, the relation has to be sensible. And again very important,
no one has ever opposed such posts.
>Accepted that two years ago something
>was decided. So what? If nobody has any *valid* objections to changing it today,
>why not?
>
>As far as the 'lakshman rekha' is concerned, it can:
>
>1. be re-drawn ( which is what the above proposes to do)
>2. stay where it is. Those who wish to stay within its bounds are welcome to do
>so. Those willing to step out of it will do so.
>
>I will look up the archives and find out why people were so against the idea of
>having untuned ghazals discussed on RMIM. Any pointers, anybody? :-)
At the risk of repeating myself, this was decided because RMIM is a music
group. Very much. Let it remain so. Poetry is an essential ingredient in
the discussions due to the nature of songs tuned. But it should not replace
music. I support this stand.
The discussion then started due to ASAD. After that, I restricted myself
to the poetry which has been tuned or has a direct relationship to a song.
In spite of this restriction, a lot could be said and discussed. It's not
a severe restriction considering the nature of our music, esp film songs.
Hence I do not see why the restriction has to be removed.
For the old-timers this particular debate might be boring. But for the
new-comers, I am sure, clarifies things a lot. All these are purely my
opinions, and I am not speaking on behalf of RMIM in general.
It's perfectly possible to have good discussions about poetry and at the
same time remain within the boundries of music. In doing so, everyone
gets to enjoy the discussions. It's my sincere and humble suggestion. If
you really want to discuss some good poetry, try to find a reason by
relating to some song. It's not difficult to find such a reason. It has
many benifits. One, you do not violate the charter. This may seem like
finding a loophole, but believe me, it's important to go by the charter
for variety of reasons. Second, and very important IMHO, you manage to
attract those who are not really "into" poetry. They can also participate
in the discussions, increase their knowledge and above all enjoy it.
This has worked best for me. Maybe, it does for you too.
>- a relative newcomer who sees no reason not to change, if change is required.
New comers like you are most welcome to RMIM. You see, disagreement doesn't
always lead to resentment.
- Abhay.
A poetry lover more than a music lover, still an RMIMer first !
Balaji A.S. Murthy
In article <5un1mn$f...@drn.zippo.com>, Nita says...
>
>At least tuned ghazals fall in the acceptable category. Thank God for small
>mercies!
>
>
>What is one supposed to do if while discussing a particular ghazal one is forced
>to move on to untuned ghazals? Does one stop the thread there? Hardly allows for
>was decided. So what? If nobody has any *valid* objections to changing it today,
>why not?
>
>As far as the 'lakshman rekha' is concerned, it can:
>
>1. be re-drawn ( which is what the above proposes to do)
>2. stay where it is. Those who wish to stay within its bounds are welcome to do
>so. Those willing to step out of it will do so.
>
>I will look up the archives and find out why people were so against the idea of
>having untuned ghazals discussed on RMIM. Any pointers, anybody? :-)
>
>
>Nita
>- a relative newcomer who sees no reason not to change, if change is required.
>
>na ho jisko Khayaal khud apnii haalat ke badalne kaa
I think there seems to be a major misunderstanding here. I don't think there
is any opposition to discussing ghazals on RMIM, provided it falls under the
purview of "music.misc". This debate can be compared to the one relating to
whether film based articles should be posted on RMIM. In case of the latter
it was strongly felt that unless the issue being discussed is strongly
related to music, it was inappropriate for the forum(this was the case even
before RAMLI). The same logic applies for various forms of poetry(ghazals
included).
With all this IMO ghazals (non musical) can be discussed on RMIM if somehow
the main focus, which is music, is not lost, sorta like Perry Mason's "I'll
connect it up later, your honour":). So non-musical ghazals will (and
probably should) be part of the discussion when relevant, but not a discussion
by themselves.
- Balaji
Unknown
Thank you, Abhay.
So, we stick to no discussions of untuned ghazals on RMIM. :-(( I guess I love
RMIM too much to move away from it to another NG :-)) So I guess I will have to
manage :-))
But imagine what a treasure trove goes to waste while we stick to our 'lakshman
rekha' :-(( but ok! ok! I will just have to find songs that will let me
introduce untuned poetry into the discussion :-))
>BTW, no one ever opposed them. We are missing the issue.
No Abhay, I was just being sarcastic :-)
>For the old-timers this particular debate might be boring. But for the
>new-comers, I am sure, clarifies things a lot. All these are purely my
>opinions, and I am not speaking on behalf of RMIM in general.
I realise that for most old timers it is difficult to talk about things already
past. But I guess we newcomers need to be told these things again to set the
record straight. Though having attended three RMIM meets and having organized
one of those (the Denver Meet), I don't know whether I still qualify as a
newcomer or not :-))))
>New comers like you are most welcome to RMIM. You see, disagreement doesn't
>always lead to resentment.
I see no reason why it should. Everybody has their own tastes, interests,
opinions. I may disagree with someone's opinions but why should I resent it?
Unless someone tries to force their opinions on me:-)))
Nita
- loves being an RMIMer :-)
Nitin Sharma
nawat...@hotmail.com (Nita) wrote:
:
: I realise that for most old timers it is difficult to talk about things already
: past. But I guess we newcomers need to be told these things again to set the
: record straight. Though having attended three RMIM meets and having organized
: one of those (the Denver Meet), I don't know whether I still qualify as a
: newcomer or not :-))))
Well, you remain a newcomer on rmim until you have seen *at least* one
post each of the following kind:
1. KK-Rafi wars
2. Sahir-Gullu jabs
3. Lata-Asha tiffs
4. Naushad-SJ snipes
5. AnilB-RDB debates
and finally,
6. A post re-discovering, and announcing for the benefit of everyone
that 'itna na mujhse tu pyar badha..' is inspired by Mozart symphony
number whatever.
Until then, no matter how many RJGK's you crack, or Chitrahars you
ace, you haven't had the *real* flavour of rmim, and so can't claim
a promotion. :-(
But fortunately, on an average, there is a re-run of all the above
on rmim at least twice between any two rjgk's or two chitrahars. :-))
-nitin
ps: The mention of the Denver meet reminds me. How come there is no
report to be seen even tho' its 4 days past the meet?
Unknown
> Well, you remain a newcomer on rmim until you have seen *at least* one
>post each of the following kind:
>
>1. KK-Rafi wars
>2. Sahir-Gullu jabs
>3. Lata-Asha tiffs
>4. Naushad-SJ snipes
>5. AnilB-RDB debates
>
> and finally,
>
>6. A post re-discovering, and announcing for the benefit of everyone
> that 'itna na mujhse tu pyar badha..' is inspired by Mozart symphony
> number whatever.
>
> Until then, no matter how many RJGK's you crack, or Chitrahars you
>ace, you haven't had the *real* flavour of rmim, and so can't claim
>a promotion. :-(
Accepting Nitin's criteria for promotion as valid, I think Ek Mitra's post on
Mozart concludes the cycle of rebirth for me as a newcomer on RMIM. I have
already seen, if not experienced (some even first hand :-) ) all the famous wars
:-)). So I guess I am no longer a "new kid on the block" :-))) Now all I have to
do is learn how to duck when the next one comes along... or maybe not:-))
>ps: The mention of the Denver meet reminds me. How come there is no
>report to be seen even tho' its 4 days past the meet?
:-)
hai.n aur bhii duniyaa me.n sukhanwar bahut achhe
kahte hai.n ki Ghalib kaa hai nadaaz-e-bayaa.N aur :-))
...........na samjhe woh anaaDi hai :-))
Keep smiling
Nita
Yogesh Sethi
Thanks to all those who responded to the question of elaborating rules
with a view to discuss ghazals on RMIM. I have nothing but admiration
for people who take time out to keep this NG on track.
What impressed me deeply was the fact that, although the discussion was
spirited and alive, it remained refined and cogent.
Thank you UVR. ‘Lakshman Rekha’, as defined here, appears reasonable for
RMIM. It may not encompass the entire spectrum of ghazals (set to music
or not), but it provides sufficient parameters to incorporate a large
selection of ghazals of the musical variety. Enough to whet a ghazal
aficionado’s appetite!
Regards,
Yogesh Sethi
halchal hai is chaman mein, ghazaloN ka ehsaas hogaa
likh de kuch aisaa naghmaa, jo maaninde bahaar aaye
[ehsaas = perception , maanind = resembling]
Unknown
>Of course, a wise newcomer will go to Sami's page and read all the posts
>archived there and experience the wars, jabs, tiffs and snipes and all the
>"slimy asides" therein by proxy. The newcomer who is OTHERWISE :) will take
>his/her own time experiencing these things first hand, by themselves, and
>will remain a newcomer for about 1 year ...
:-))))) since my introduction to RMIM was through Sami's home page, I guess I am
just naturally wise:-))))))))))))
Keep smiling
Nita
tum itnaa jo muskuraa rahe ho
kyaa Gam hai jisko chhupaa rahe ho
Hemlata N Khemani
In article <EG1tp...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
Nitin Sharma <ni...@cs.washington.edu> wrote:
>-nitin
>
>ps: The mention of the Denver meet reminds me. How come there is no
>report to be seen even tho' its 4 days past the meet?
I guess Nitin, the reporter of the Denver meet is not as diligent as I was
as a reporter for the east coast meet.:-)) Or should I say that they
don't have the sword of Ketan hovering on their heads to rush with the
report. :-))
BTW, come on attendees, it's been too quiet. Get some inspiration from
the zillion mails of D.C attendees.
Hema
--
Pankha Road se Pintu Diwana
According to my newsreader, on 4 Sep 1997 15:58:09 -0700, nawat...@hotmail.com <Nita> said:
> Thank you, Abhay.
> So, we stick to no discussions of untuned ghazals on RMIM. :-(( I guess I love
> RMIM too much to move away from it to another NG :-)) So I guess I will have to
> manage :-))
First of all, let me state that for the past couple of months, I seem to be
missing some posts from the threads. I apparently get the later posts and
some earlier posts simply expire or not reach my newsreader. I have
missed the original post again.
On the topic of ghazals and lyrics on RMIM, I would like to add a few
points, I am not sure if they hae already been made or not.
Advance apologies if they have been.
1. what is meant by rec.music.indian.misc?
misc indian music for recreation (entertainment)
what is music? Only the ones for which a CD/cassette has been
released? Only film music?
All of Vedas are songs, so is Geetaa and Geeta Govindam. Can we
included them in the discussion then? No, that becomes a separate
topic altogether (inspite my recent references to these :-)) )
And a whole range of folk songs not necessarily recorded.
2. ghazals are pretty popular and abundant in popular music, filmi and
non-filmi. If they are dying or degrading in quality it may be because of
the declining interest owing to lack of such discussions
as we are trying to avoid on RMIM and forums like RMIM!
3. lyrics are important part of the song and RMIM. Why do we have the ISB
otherwise? and the CH, RJGK etc quizzes? not for the background music! but
for the songs. The appreciation for songs increases if you know the meaning,
even if it is the lyrics of "aap jaisaa koi meree zindagee meN aaye, to
baap :-)) ban jaaye". The importance of lyrics' understanding is also clear
from gems like "hamne dekhee hai un aaNkhoN kee mahakatee ..." and the fact
that people like Abhay and Pavan had doubts, makes it imperative that
lyrics not be shunned from RMIM but discussed.
4. It is wrong to bring up these topics, ghazals just to show off (no
fingers pointed at all,please!) as some non-ghazal fans might feel. But, if
you are discussing e.g. a song from the movie, and if the context brings in
another ghazal (to clarify the meaning, showing a similar usage, another
creation by same poet etc etc), the poster should NOT be strangualted
by the rule, "NO ghazals" and feel gagged.
5. This also doesn't mean, that every post should have a follw-up,
like
"Wow! that was cool!
"Aaaah, I alwasy thought he was great"
"My favourite"
or whatever similar to this.
The idea is not to have an "elite" cream of
RMIMers flooding the brains of "peasant" folk, but that of exposure to
something substantial. Not everyone has knowledge of everything, but only
through such mutual discussions and exposure to such discussions will one
learn and know anything new.
And it is so much more better than KK > Rafi, Rafi >> Talat, Lata <<<< Asha
wars which lead to no (un)satisfactory conclusion except to stop reading
RMIM. Even though such war posts are completely within the
charter (music of india) they are useless blabbering (no matter who does it)
trying to propagate a personal agenda and opinion rather than to learn
and know something more than what one already knows.
6. Common sense should prevail in such matters and not "patthar kee lakeer"
rules. I would strongly suggest "allow ghazal discussion on RMIM" and
"THINK before you post (ghazal) posts on RMIM about their relevance and
need". Are you sharing something that people might want to read or may
benefit or enjoy?
7. For the ghazal fans, if everything fails, you can always have a fat 40
lines signature that discusses your favourite topic!!
OOOPS!!! Jury will disregard the last point and it be deleted from official
records.
> >For the old-timers this particular debate might be boring. But for the
> >new-comers, I am sure, clarifies things a lot. All these are purely my
> >opinions, and I am not speaking on behalf of RMIM in general.
Well, Abhay I will take a stronger hold on my statement. Even though I am
not speaking as the spokesperson of the RMIM, I am speaking FOR the RMIM as
a whole. We, the RMIMers are the ones who decide what the newsgroup should
be or not be.
So, just like we can't disown our (flaming) posts by putting
a few smilies at the end, similarly we can't try to dilute the seriousness
of the point being made by saying "just my opinion" :-))
Of course what we say is "just our opinion"
and "to the best of our knowledge", but anyone remember how we
fought for the RAMLI creation with the exisitng rec.arts.movies readers?
We could not have just said at that time, "just my opinion". We would never
have made any points across if we did that.
So, Abhay, just because you were in the center of some recent hell-fires
:-)) don't diffuse your statements' force by always adding that muffler of
all statements "just my opinion" :))
> I realise that for most old timers it is difficult to talk about things already
> past. But I guess we newcomers need to be told these things again to set the
> record straight. Though having attended three RMIM meets and having organized
> one of those (the Denver Meet), I don't know whether I still qualify as a
> newcomer or not :-))))
Speaking of the RMIM meets, when are we getting the khulaasaa of the
Denver meeting? Guri, and surprisingly UVR have been so silent about the
whole matter!! Makes me wonder are they still not sober from all the
partying :-))
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Pintu Diwana pi...@shift-f1.com
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